Time  Nick      Message
10:48 owen      Yeah, even searching for an isbn that came up in the previous search doesn't work
10:45 shaun     | brb
10:43 shaun     there still appears to be a problem with searching for ISBNs
10:34 shaun     thanks paul - the problem appears to be the time the daemon takes to refresh...
10:33 shaun     got it! it seems as if the error message is still showing up though...
10:33 paul_away right shaun, the bug was not this. It was something like "mysql disappear".
10:32 owen      After the pop-up refreshes once or twice, three results come up
10:31 owen      I typed 'the client' in the 245a field (tab 1), and clicked the z39.50 button
10:31 shaun     done
10:31 owen      I went here: http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8080/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbiblio.pl
10:30 shaun     owen?
10:29 shaun     that time, the error didnt come up in the log - could you guide me through what you did (i am at catalogue > add biblio atm)?
10:28 owen      Yeah, I get 3 results for a search for 'the client', from Z3950-ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ
10:27 shaun     owen: ok, now if possible
10:24 owen      sure
10:24 shaun     ben: don't touch anything for a min, owen: I'm restarting the z39.50 daemon with a new log for me to capture; could you try the search again in 5 minutes time please?
10:22 Ben       brb for 20 mins
10:21 shaun     was the bug similar to this problem?
10:21 Ben       tx
10:21 Ben       ok
10:21 paul_away will have a look on monday.
10:21 Ben       paul_away, hi
10:21 paul_away mmm... strange.
10:21 Ben       paul_away, we're using 2.2.2
10:21 shaun     this is 2.2.2
10:21 paul_away (not really here)
10:21 shaun     lol...
10:21 paul_away shaun : there's a bug in z3950 client in 2.2.1 it's fixed in 2.2.2
10:21 Ben       based on my measuring their speed of doing so using ALICE yesterday
10:20 Ben       we want dimbleby/baldwin to be able to run and print the results of an enquiry on psychyology or sociology within 35 seconds
10:20 shaun     back
10:19 Ben       I have found some usage targets...
10:19 shaun     brb
10:19 shaun      at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi/Net/Z3950/Manager.pm line 258
10:19 shaun     Event: '?? Connection.pm:153' died and then $Event::DIED died with: Can't call method "attributes" without a package or object reference at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi/Event.pm line 104.
10:18 Ben       sorry
10:18 Ben       lol
10:18 shaun     don't worry, ben... it is now conveniently unplugged, and the print queue is being moved to /dev/null, or somewhere thereabouts.
10:17 Ben       whoops.. (aplogogies to shaun if his printer starts printing at this point)
10:15 shaun     yes
10:14 owen      Did you put a title in the 245a field?
10:14 shaun     owen: what results do you get for "the client"? I have tried it and it doesn't seem to want to connect, with the same error message each time.
10:13 Ben       ah
10:13 shaun     I am on that page
10:13 Ben       I think
10:12 Ben       shaun, you should be on this page: http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8080/cgi-bin/koha/acqui.simple/addbooks.pl
10:12 Ben       owen, what title would you suggest?
10:10 shaun     am i doing this wrong? I still get Still ?? requests to go
10:10 Ben       (most of it remains unchanged)
10:08 Ben       shaun, I just sent my revised-messages version of circulations.tmpl
10:08 Ben       when are we getting some data?
10:07 Ben       bye kados
10:06 kados     I've got to go
10:06 owen      shaun, try a z39.50 search using a title instead of an isbn.  That worked for me
10:06 kados     check the email archives ... there may be some answers there
10:06 kados     good luck with that z-client
10:05 kados     hehe
10:05 shaun      at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi/Net/Z3950/Manager.pm -- i think this is the problem...
10:05 shaun     Event: '?? Connection.pm:153' died and then $Event::DIED died with: Can't call method "attributes" without a package or object reference at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi/Event.pm line 104.
10:05 shaun     5166/38 : zed.natlib.govt.nz:210 search done.
10:05 shaun     5166/38 : ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ : no records found
10:05 shaun     5166/38 : connected to ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ
10:05 shaun     5166/38 : creating and 5166/38 : working on results entry 10
10:05 shaun     5166/38 : 2 >>
10:05 shaun     5166/38 : Processing isbn=0385510454 at ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ zed.natlib.govt.nz:210 pinz MARC21 (3 forks)
10:05 Ben       yes
10:05 Ben       buried in Paramaters/Settings, it's configurable
10:05 kados     yep
10:05 shaun     its a hard limit - as in it cannot be overrided by the librarian, only the person who sets parameters - am i right in saying that?
10:04 Ben       no, it's not hardcoded
10:04 kados     it's hard coded?
10:04 owen      Guys your add biblio screen needs work :)  But then again, so does mine!
10:04 kados     not sure I understand what that means
10:03 shaun     i*s*
10:03 shaun     i would suggest that the 'max debt before no loans' setting i a hard limit.
10:03 kados     so it will query staff before allowing an issue ... pretty standard procedure
10:03 kados     no it just means that the borrorer has debt ;-)
10:02 Ben       kados, any ideas?
10:02 Ben       kados?
10:02 Ben       oh dear
10:02 owen      Could be...I'm not sure because we don't charge fines here
10:01 Ben       does that mean that the borrower has exceeded their group's 'max debt before no loans' setting?
10:01 Ben       				<p>The borrower has a debt of <!-- TMPL_VAR name="DEBT" -->. Continue?</p>
10:01 Ben       <!-- TMPL_IF NAME="DEBT" -->
10:00 shaun     5143/37 : zed.natlib.govt.nz:210 search done.
10:00 shaun     5143/37 : ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ : no records found
10:00 shaun     5143/37 : connected to ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ
10:00 shaun     5143/37 : creating and 5143/37 : working on results entry 9
10:00 shaun     5143/37 : 2 >>
10:00 shaun     5143/37 : Processing isbn=0385510454 at ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ zed.natlib.govt.nz:210 pinz MARC21 (2 forks)
09:59 shaun     none of the ISBNs i have tried have worked
09:59 Ben       ok..
09:59 owen      debarred is a term used by some library systems
09:59 kados     Ben: nope that's actually the right term
09:58 owen      It looks from the behavior of the z39.50 search that it's working properly, but the isbn I tried turned up nothing
09:58 Ben       is  'patron is debarred' a Poulain mistranslation meaning 'patron is banned/barred' ?
09:57 Ben       :)
09:57 Ben       owen, we should ask nicely
09:57 Ben       * patron is barred
09:57 owen      Some developers in Argentina have worked out a calendar system, but they haven't shared the code with us
09:56 Ben       I presume that 'patron is debarred' is a Poulain mistranslation meaning 'patron is debarred'
09:56 owen      Ben, there isn't a way to specify those yet
09:56 Ben       what about school terms, shaun? bank holidays? unscheduled closing?
09:55 owen      Looks okay to me, but I'm not an authority on z39.50 settings
09:54 shaun     good - are the settings for z39.50 OK?
09:54 owen      Yeah, so your parameters screen is working now that auth is back on
09:54 shaun     theoretically, it cannot calculate that: if the loan time is say two weeks, the return date will be the same day, two weeks time...
09:53 shaun     *was wondering how a library system could go without having several copies of popular books
09:53 Ben       we don't want it calculating that books need to be back on a day the library is going to be closed
09:52 Ben       how about opening days?
09:52 Ben       goodo
09:52 owen      Ben, of course
09:52 Ben       no, I mean multiple copies of the same book
09:52 shaun     "multiple copies" -- you mean multiple installations on one server? sure :p
09:52 Ben       shaun, circulations.tmpl please
09:51 owen      Sorry, I got busy here.
09:50 Ben       and also, is there any 'opening days' work in the pipeline/present?
09:49 Ben       btw owen, I presume koha has support for multiple copies?
09:49 shaun     owen: are our z39.50 settings OK?
09:49 shaun     ah...
09:49 Ben       I meant circulations.tmpl... guh *slaps head*
09:48 shaun     sent; please don't go editing it - we are trying to separate content from presentation
09:48 Ben       doh
09:48 Ben       thanks
09:46 Ben       shaun,can you please send me circulations.pl?
09:46 shaun     and username is kohaadmin
09:46 Ben       oh well
09:45 Ben       the password is hexthouse
09:43 Ben       ok
09:43 shaun     auth is back on - i am changing the password to give to owen, and other devs who want it
09:43 Ben       ah
09:42 shaun     tidy cannot tell things that are only in XHTML strict - e.g. something=something instead of something="something" on the returns page
09:41 Ben       shall we just let tidy do it? w3c validator is really annoyingly pedantic, and causes thesae problems
09:40 owen      koha permissions
09:40 shaun     are you talking about koha permissions (member-flags.pl) or unix permissions?
09:39 shaun     if there was a checker more comprehensive than Tidy in firefox, I would use that...
09:39 owen      You have to have the right priviledges to access admin-home.pl
09:38 Ben       yes, we did encounter that
09:38 Ben       we're not evaluating its security, we're checking the XHTML
09:37 shaun     security isn't really an issue...
09:37 owen      Have you seen this page?  http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8080/cgi-bin/koha/members/member-flags.pl?member=1
09:37 owen      Well, you can't evaluate Koha's security if you've got it turned off!
09:37 Ben       i.e. without uploading
09:36 Ben       we did that to let the w3c validator check it non-tediously
09:36 shaun     ben turned that off so W3C can check it
09:36 owen      I was able to get into your intranet with no username or password--that's what's insecure
09:35 shaun     hang on, yes i can, by using the full path - is this a potential security issue, an unpriveleged user being able to access the settings?
09:34 owen      First, make sure you have the most up-to-date copy of Auth.pm
09:34 owen      There are a few things you need to check to get system administration working again
09:33 shaun     what is the location of the login script .pl? the unpriveleged user is unable to access parameters, and thus I can't get into the z39.50 settings
09:31 shaun     yes - new zealand got further *tries to dig out logs*
09:31 Ben       shaun, did you try any z39.50 servers at all except the british library one?
09:30 Ben       ja
09:30 owen      If only z39.50 was working for you, you could grab some things that way
09:30 Ben       yes
09:30 shaun     we don't have any source of data for books - although I will try Eunice for some MARC data ;)
09:30 Ben       (patrons are me, shaun and my dad)
09:29 Ben       no books though
09:29 shaun     lol
09:29 Ben       we have three patrons
09:29 Ben       we did lift the tabs wholesale from mozilla.org, but we're working on our own
09:29 owen      Do you have *any* data at all?  Any books or patrons entered?
09:29 Ben       thanks
09:29 Ben       whatever
09:29 shaun     thanks
09:29 shaun     its catalogue
09:29 shaun     wrong again
09:29 owen      Yes, the design looks good
09:29 shaun     * its circulations, not acquisitions
09:28 shaun     yes, we do - but z39.50 has errors... "Looks good." -- referring to the design?
09:28 Ben       aquisitions > add biblio has been broken by shaun's cssing, and it was incomprehensible when it worked
09:28 Ben       mm.
09:27 owen      Looks good. You need some sample data, though, hunh?
09:27 Ben       back
09:26 Ben       brb
09:26 shaun     the z3950daemon is not running atm, ill fire it up...
09:26 Ben       we're doing our interface mods on it
09:26 shaun     yes - its running on fedora core 3
09:26 Ben       http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8080/cgi-bin/koha/acqui/acqui-home.pl
09:26 Ben       yup
09:25 owen      Do you have a test installation of Koha up and running?
09:25 Ben       you must remember I am 14 years old, British and in possession of a headache and small brother in the background
09:25 Ben       shaun, hrrm
09:24 shaun     | well done, ben :p
09:24 Ben       ok
09:24 owen      And the status becomes 'reserved_waiting' when they are checked in and the reservation is confirmed
09:24 Ben       right
09:24 owen      the reserved status is for items which haven't been checked in yet--although they may not be checked out
09:24 bengoodge ?
09:23 bengoodge and it becomes 'reserved_waiting' when the item becomes available for the reservee to collect, hence 'waiting' status?
09:22 bengoodge so 'reserved' status is for items which haven't been checked back in yet?
09:22 bengoodge ok
09:22 owen      Koha knows that a reserve has been fulfulled when the reserved item is checked in and the reservation is confirmed by the librarian
09:21 shaun     ok, thanks
09:21 bengoodge for reserved, the item has not yet been 'returned and allocated' < meaning what?
09:21 owen      Come back Monday evening (your time) and ask rach.  She'll know the font
09:20 shaun     owen: should the logo, in the top left-hand corner of our design include anything other than koha? (eg LIBRARY SYSTEM)?
09:19 bengoodge let's recap
09:18 bengoodge I used bold, btw
09:18 bengoodge that's the one in use on the koha.org/drive test-drive system
09:17 bengoodge http://hlt.katipo.co.nz/intranet-tmpl/default/en/images/koha-front-koha.gif
09:17 shaun     both the o and the a need to be more hollow, and the h should not be as high.
09:17 bengoodge maybe I used the separate italic font and they just italicised it
09:17 owen      Depends on your library's policy.  In our library the person with the book in their hands gets top priority, so the librarian will always override the reservation and check the book out
09:16 bengoodge however, every other letter matches up..
09:16 bengoodge good point
09:15 shaun     the K seems to have a loop in yours.
09:14 shaun     ben: compare serverroot/intranet-tmpl/default/images/kohalogo.gif with http://katipo.co.nz/albums/album103/koha_logo_001.thumb.jpg
09:14 bengoodge so what would a suitable error message be for reserve? 'Item is on reserve. Please set it aside and notify <-- reserved -->'?
09:12 bengoodge it's bodomi mt italic
09:12 bengoodge no, it's definitely bodomi mt, I looked at it character by character
09:12 shaun     * yay, i understand
09:12 shaun     ben: are you sure that's not just your fake of the koha logo, not the official one?
09:12 bengoodge ok
09:12 owen      yes
09:11 bengoodge so reserved is for books which haven't yet been set aside, and reserve_waiting is for books which have been set aside?
09:11 bengoodge right..
09:10 bengoodge knew it was something like that
09:10 owen      reserved is for any book that hasn't been returned and allocated by the system.  It might be checked out, or it might be on the shelf.
09:10 bengoodge bodoni mt
09:10 shaun     owen, do you know the font?
09:10 bengoodge hang on..
09:10 bengoodge no
09:10 bengoodge so reserved is for books which are on loan; reserved_waiting is for books which are in the library.
09:09 shaun     | batami mt: are you sure?
09:09 bengoodge right..
09:09 bengoodge batami mt
09:09 owen      RESERVED is for books which are on reserve, but haven't been allocated by the system yet (because they haven't been found and returned by the librarian)
09:09 shaun     So many questions: what is the font for the 'Koha' in the official logo?
09:08 bengoodge so 'reserved' is for books in the library rather than set aside, for someone who is coming in later to get them?
09:08 shaun     dunno, im on x-chat, rtm :p
09:08 bengoodge chatzilla obeys standard irc commands
09:07 bengoodge how?
09:07 shaun     ben: change your name from bengoodge to ben ;)
09:07 bengoodge no, wait..
09:06 bengoodge so, we have for reserved:
09:06 owen      The circulation system lets the librarian confirm the issue to the patron and cancel the reserve at the same time (since the reserve is getting fulfilled)
09:06 bengoodge hang on, shaun
09:06 shaun     *is confused
09:06 bengoodge right
09:06 owen      Like a husband coming in to pick up his wife's reserves.  In that case the books are being checked out by someone other than the patron for whom the books were originally reserved
09:05 bengoodge as long as it works roughly the same in ie, go for it
09:05 owen      A 'RESERVE_WAITING' is supposedly being held at the desk for the patron who reserved it, but there are cases where another patron might want to check the item out
09:04 owen      The system now knows that the reserve has been fulfilled (that is, an item has been found that matches the requirements), and that frees up the other copies to circulate
09:04 bengoodge moz-specific is fine
09:04 shaun     Me being a web designer - does anybody have any opinions on the use of Mozilla-specific CSS3? rounded corners are nice, but afaik they're not going to be implemented in IE, and IE is the browser of the library that we are trying to get Koha used in.
09:03 owen      When a reserved item is returned by the librarian, the item is allocated by the system to fulfill that reserve, and is given the status 'waiting'
09:03 bengoodge brb
09:03 bengoodge specifically: the difference between them
09:03 bengoodge I can understand reserved, but not reserve_waiting
09:02 owen      When an item is placed on reserve, it gets a reserved status
09:02 bengoodge yes..
09:02 owen      It has to do with the status of a reserved item which is being checked out
09:01 bengoodge even stuart can't figure this one out, shaun..
09:00 bengoodge so, for RESERVE_WAITING and RESERVED, what is the difference between them?
09:00 bengoodge hmm
09:00 owen      Oh, maybe this is it: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/koha/
09:00 kados     I don't this there ever was ;-)
08:59 owen      But I don't even see anything on his site about Koha now.
08:59 owen      This guy used to be active with Koha: http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
08:59 shaun     Ben: talk on gaim >
08:58 bengoodge saw that a while ago
08:58 bengoodge shaun, I looked last night... it looks basically the same as before, can we change the text size/margins/padding please..
08:58 kados     have you guys seen http://liblime.com?
08:57 shaun     Ben: have you been on the testing server today? I have touched up #submenu.
08:57 bengoodge what is the difference between them?
08:57 owen      circulation.tmpl is just for circulation.  Not for returns
08:57 bengoodge namely, RESERVE_WAITING and RESERVED..
08:56 bengoodge (circulation.tmpl)
08:56 bengoodge for the returns interface, I have come across two items which confuse me
08:56 shaun     meh *slaps self over lack of knowledge of unconventional spellings*
08:56 owen      kados, what about slef?  He's in the UK.
08:55 owen      Some systems do use 'enquiry'
08:55 bengoodge shaun, afaik there are none, unless the ones you talked to me about have UK extensions..
08:55 bengoodge fine
08:55 shaun     Ben: it's *Inquiry
08:54 bengoodge btw, in that list email I sent about the reserves, your response was confusing..
08:54 shaun     Talking of which: does anybody know any businesses that support Koha in the UK? Our sysadmins and head librarian are paranoid about using something that is not supported by a company.
08:54 bengoodge poorly designed windows gui.. you have to switch to the master window, scroll down to the 'enquiry' item, and then double click it to get at enquiries
08:53 bengoodge yes
08:53 owen      Windows GUI?
08:52 shaun     Ours love clicking - the GUI of the program we use is deliberately cryptic.
08:52 bengoodge lol
08:52 bengoodge ours are used to wading through swathes of ineffectively designed windows to get to the simplest function
08:52 owen      ...but we make them do it because it builds character
08:51 owen      Our librarians hate having to click more than once to get to anything
08:51 bengoodge ah.
08:51 shaun     well, in the good old days when the barcode scanner worked, it was taped to the front desk - that was before they went back to the original cards and inserts, etc.#
08:51 owen      It's an interesting idea
08:50 bengoodge we could have a strip of them running along the inside edge of the desk for dimbles etc to scan
08:49 bengoodge shaun, I think that's fairly pointless, but could have some sort of use if we don't want mouse usage..
08:49 shaun     the link?
08:48 owen      kados is my colleage here at the Nelsonville Public Library, and he's probably asleep, if he has any sense ;)
08:48 owen      pate is a lurker, once active with Koha but not lately
08:47 owen      paul is the French developer, responsible for most of the latest developments in Koha
08:47 bengoodge brb
08:47 shaun     | hi ben - im lagging behind the conversation once again...
08:47 bengoodge ok
08:47 owen      chris, rach, and si are New Zealanders (part of the team that originally built Koha)
08:47 shaun     We had an idea of using a similar system to Alice (see http://www.softlink.net.au/) to make a series of barcodes, which when scanned access the relevant tab - wdyt?
08:46 bengoodge lol
08:46 owen      (probably asleep)
08:46 bengoodge and various others hitherto unencountered.
08:46 owen      hi ben
08:46 bengoodge hi owen, shaun..
08:45 bengoodge got it
08:45 owen      I've done some cursory investigation of javascript-driven access keys, but never got anywhere with it
08:45 owen      Yeah, that's what I'm using here and there.
08:42 shaun     The access keys that we have made so far (for the main 'tabs') are all accesskey="", with a number
08:40 owen      Okay
08:40 shaun     Ben gave you my hotmail account - things never seem to get there for some reason - my real, attended address is shaun@shaunevans.co.uk
08:39 owen      Yup
08:39 shaun     hi (soz, just wondering whether I had found the right place...)
08:38 owen      Hi shaun
16:08 indradg   cya
16:05 chris     cya's later
16:05 chris     ok, im gonna go find some breakfast
16:02 chris     hmm, that sounds like a good plan to me
16:01 indradg   i'm thinking --> 1. Create the template for Library Membership cards using kbarcode since its nice and easy --> 2. write the code to parse the XMLised thingie that is actually the template -> 3. re-use some of the current barcodes.pl --> generate the cards on-demand from inside koha with addition to the borrowers table abt their card generated status
15:59 chris     excellent :)
15:58 indradg   its working nicely
15:57 indradg   i'm currently printing library id cards (bar-coded) using kbarcode
15:57 chris     yeah
15:54 indradg   politics ensured that we didnt play with pakistan for last so many years
15:52 indradg   aah... i c
15:50 chris     because of the human rights issue .. and zimbabwe are still suspended from the commonwealth ... politics vs sports
15:48 indradg   why the controversy?
15:46 chris     the controversy here at the moment is all about wether we should tour zimbabwe or not
15:45 chris     yeah .. and dravid is a much better batsman than he is a keeper .. well in my opinion anyway
15:44 indradg   its good to have a full-time keeper... at least relieves Dravid from doing triple duty in the matches which he also has to captain during the absence of ganguly
15:43 indradg   one new face has come in the picture during the indo-pak series - Mahinder Singh Dhoni, the keeper... who can also bat :)
15:42 chris     flemming was having quite poor form problems as well, he seems to have finally got back into form
15:41 chris     yeah
15:41 indradg   but he really needs to get back in form and *fast*!
15:40 indradg   and going by statistics he also happens to be india's most successful test and ODI capt
15:40 indradg   ganguly is the first indian capt who refused to follow regional patterns... and brought in and mentored talented players from other regions
15:39 indradg   generally the capts would promote players from their own province... often at the expense of the other good players... and there would be tremendous amt of regional politics
15:38 chris     and now they lose the force behind that?
15:38 chris     so they are finally playing well as a team?
15:38 chris     ahhh
15:38 indradg   indian cricket team never had a *real* national identity
15:37 indradg   not that easy.... ganguly has changed the nature of the indian team during his tenure as capt
15:36 chris     maybe a blessing in disguise .. force the selectors to pick another batsman
15:36 indradg   yes... hasn't got many runs in the last 13 or so matches
15:35 chris     he's been a little out of form with the bat as well eh?
15:35 indradg   yes... slow over rate
15:35 indradg   pakistan has some really good players
15:35 chris     ahh right ... for slow over rate?
15:34 chris     we scored 304 .. and he nearly got pakistan there .. 302 they got .. that was a great game
15:34 indradg   indian media is full of the controversy over indian captain 6 match suspension
15:34 chris     i remember when they played nz in 2003/4
15:33 chris     ohh excellent .. that afridi .. boy can he hit or what
15:33 indradg   chris, yep! today was a holiday on account of indian new year... so got to watch the match
15:32 chris     the 6th game is gonna be huge
15:31 chris     indradg: some good cricket being played over in your part of the world at the moment
15:17 chris     one things libraries dont do .. and thats hurry :-)
15:17 indradg   same story with govt/institutional tenders here in india
15:17 chris     yeah nearly a year
15:17 indradg   the tender took a long time?
15:15 chris     the interesting thing is, it went thru the full tender process, ie we were competing with the big boys ... so i think its a really good sign for koha
15:14 pate      i missed it ...
15:11 indradg   chris, saw rachel talking abt it... good show! :)
15:10 chris     did you see on the logs we got our 2nd NZ public library yesterday?
15:10 chris     pretty good so far, mind you its only 8am :)
15:04 pate      hiya Chris ... how's the weekend treating you?
14:55 chris     heya pate :)
14:42 pate      congrats to any liblimers hanging about