IRC log for #koha, 2004-11-21

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
11:00 Genji and excited by what ive achieved with koha.
11:00 paul <troll on>  Pepsi is bad, coca is the only best</troll>
11:00 Genji hey, i had coke this morning.. its good.
11:00 paul (was purely a joke, i drink none, and my boys didn't too)
11:00 paul (we just drink water & fruit juices on the morning)
11:01 Genji hmmm.. okay.. peps say that tables don't show up the same on all browsers. not sure what that means.
11:02 Genji ack.. i can't even use the main page with opera.
11:02 paul the main problem with tables, is that they were NOT planned to be used to define the position of something on the screen
11:02 Genji the main menu...
11:03 paul you're right.
11:03 Genji too much ie/mozilla based javascript.
11:03 paul worked before. I'll investigate...
11:03 paul (i use opera sometimes, as opera is available on linux !)
11:05 Genji whats a hint class?
11:05 paul ??
11:05 Genji hey, you can now run linux on top of windows. Colinux. :)
11:06 Genji <!-- RIGHT (disappearing) BLOC -->
11:06 Genji <div id="Hint1" class="hint">
11:06 paul to have the bugs of Windows without the speed of Linux, no, thanks ;-)
11:06 paul (and i have no legal licence of Windows anyway !)
11:06 paul it's a CSS class just to put the white box on the left.
11:06 Genji Opera supports hint classes?
11:06 paul i modified it to work on IE, but seems it has broken something for OPera...
11:07 paul hint is not a pre defined class
11:07 paul in CSS, you can define the class name you need
11:07 Genji ah. okay.
11:07 paul go to templates/default/en/includes/commonstyles.css
11:07 paul and search hint
11:08 paul you'll find how it's defined.
11:08 paul probably a problem with margin-left or something like that
11:09 Genji actually, its intranet-main.ccs
11:11 Genji Doubled margin-left, no diff.
11:11 Genji i think its the javascript... not sure...
11:11 Genji the menu should still show if its ccs prob?
11:12 paul in fact, the menu is hidden by the hint "circulation", that is the last one, and is not enough on the right.
11:14 Genji ahh.. interesting.
11:15 Genji so the fix is?
11:16 paul just need tests...
11:16 paul i'm not a CSS warlord, just a basis fighter ;-)
11:17 Genji why are we using these fancy javascript menus anyway?
11:17 paul no good reason. Just to have a sexy mainpage...
11:18 Genji one that a opera user can't use.
11:18 paul no, of course ;-)
11:18 paul if you have another one that is sexy and works on any browser, let us know !
11:19 Genji the old mainpage was good.
11:23 paul but untranslatable...
11:23 paul as hints were pictures
11:23 paul (& the "Koha a gift, a contribution text")
11:23 paul don't forget some librarians are happy to see Koha in their native language ;-)
11:24 Genji true... okay.. its 3:23 am.. and fatiage is hitting my body. what time your usually up to?
11:25 Genji up/online.
11:25 paul ...
11:25 paul 7AM-17AM (GMT)
11:25 paul i'm just 12H from you.
11:26 paul when 8AM for you, 8PM for me.
11:26 paul which is the worst thing we could expect
11:26 Genji so, you knock off in 2 hours, then?
11:26 paul say 3
11:26 paul and a half
11:26 Genji hmmm... nah. can't stay up. bed looks really good right now.
11:27 paul :-D
11:27 Genji what do you think of the object orientated shelf tree?
11:27 paul I think it's a good idea
11:28 paul but I don't see yet how to code it...
11:28 Genji how would you implement it, with the new permissions code?
11:28 paul that's what i don't see for instance.
11:29 Genji i mean, i can code the basic virtual shelf.. but tying the permissions code into it.. im just not sure how to.
11:30 paul do what you can, and, free software miracle, someone will complete it !
11:30 paul (me or someone else)
11:30 Genji Virtual shelf tree table (shelfparent int, shelfchild int)
11:31 Genji main shelf defined as a systempreference.
11:32 Genji example data... (1,3)(3,4)(4,5)
11:33 paul yes, I understand this. The next topic being to have a opac-page to "swim" into virtual shelves
11:33 Genji or, resolved to names, maybe (Main hall,General)(General,Buddhism)(Buddhism,Zen)
11:35 Genji AHHA!
11:35 paul yes, and how do you fill your virtual shelves ?
11:35 Genji new itemtype "intranet"
11:35 paul for a 100 000 library book, it's really a huge job !
11:36 Genji a web link, that when put into a virtual shelf, is a instant web link, rather than a click for details.
11:36 Genji point the intranet web link at another shelf...
11:36 Genji that would work?
11:38 Genji for our library, our subject areas are going to have barcodes on their labels.
11:38 Genji we type in the subject areas, map the parent-child relationships, scan the books into the subject areas.
11:39 Genji simultaniously stocktaking( updating last seen) and filling the virtual shelves.
11:39 paul very good suggestion !
11:42 Genji hmmm... virtual shelf-add new item, listbox of itemtypes, select shelve, shows you a dropdown of shelves, select one, and thats added to the current virtual shelf.
11:46 Genji in shelfcontents, what are possible flags, currently?
11:59 Genji ohhh! flags is unused, there for future use... okay.. ill use it.
12:00 Genji flag set to 1 equals shelfitem is another virtual shelf, so go to it when clicked.
12:06 Genji okay, going to bed, but keeping this open.
12:09 paul g'night
12:09 paul hello owen
12:09 paul g'morning
12:10 owen Hi paul.  I just sent you an email--I don't get any online help for ISBD.  Are you sure it's there?
12:10 paul yes, it's in Koha >> Parameters >> systempreferences >> Help
12:11 owen when I click 'help' it says there isn't any help for that topic.
12:11 paul are you with default template or npl ?
12:11 owen css
12:11 paul and language english.
12:11 paul mmm... strange.
12:11 owen yes
12:12 paul what do you have after "insecure" parameter help ?
12:12 paul ok, I understand
12:12 paul i have not commited online help :-(
12:12 paul so it's in 2.2.0RC1 official, but not on CVS...
12:13 owen That explains it!
12:13 paul ok, it's on CVS now !
12:13 paul can you update immediatly or you want a copy ?
12:13 paul here
12:13 paul ?
12:14 owen Thanks! :)  I'll update.
12:15 paul (you can see it on​/koha/
12:15 paul 8081 NOT 808
12:19 owen Is 'default' the most current template now?
12:21 paul for librarian intranet, css does not exist, so Koha automatically uses default
12:21 paul for OPAC, default is useless, css is OK
12:27 owen Should the variable type for the ISBD system preference value be textarea?
12:28 owen No, that doesn't seem to work
12:28 paul yes, that should.
12:28 paul use EXACTLY the typo as shown :
12:28 paul Textarea iirc
12:28 paul with row|colums under
12:29 paul works fine for me
12:29 owen Oh, I forgot about the row|columns
12:29 owen On our installation is comes up as 'free'.  I'm not sure why
12:33 owen If I enter this:  #245|Title: {245a}|   Shouldn't that display the contents of the 245 tag, subfield a?
12:33 paul yes. except you need 1 more |
12:34 paul #245|Title:|{245a}|
12:35 owen I see.
12:37 owen By the way, this link in the intranet doesn't work for me: /cgi-bin/koha/bookshelves/
13:08 paul owen, about shelves
13:08 paul seems there is a cvs problem too
13:08 paul i'm fixing it
13:08 owen Thanks
14:08 paul 2.2.0RC2 has been released
15:47 kados paul around?
16:07 owen no, but I am now
16:08 kados hey owen :-)
16:08 owen How's it going?
16:08 kados pretty good
16:08 kados how about you?
16:09 owen Just looking into Gloria's post about subject searches...
16:10 kados right ...
16:10 kados I was going to ask paul whether he'd thought much about subject searches in Koha 2.2
16:12 owen It's different that the way our production version works.  It doesn't bring up the list of subject headings anymore.
16:12 owen ...but I don't know what fields it searches.
16:13 kados gloria must be talking about intranet searches ... the opac seems to work normally
16:14 kados yep ... /me checks the logs
16:15 owen Is there an error?
16:16 kados I don't see one yet
16:16 kados for that prob
16:16 kados there are a few other errors:
16:16 kados [Fri Nov 19 13:45:43 2004] [error] [client] File does not exist: /usr/local/koha/intranet/htdocs/favicon.ico
16:16 owen What is all that 'Duplicate entry '3400000000'?
16:16 kados Doing a precise search
16:16 kados DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Duplicate entry '340000000' for key 2 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules/C4/ line 1519.
16:16 kados I've no idea
16:19 kados it's in the OLDdelitem subrouting
16:20 slef hello... Does anyone know when paul will return?
16:20 kados not sure slef
16:20 owen Paul's probably off for the night.
16:21 kados he's usually here only in the mornings
16:21 owen (our mornings)
16:21 kados us mornings that is :-)
16:21 slef he left just over 2h ago, says whowas
16:21 slef oh well, I'll fix the bug and send email
16:22 kados so for you that'd be early afternoon slef (its what about 7ish now in UK?)
16:23 slef 1920 or so here now
16:24 slef ah, bug didn't exist
16:24 slef the best kind of bug :)
16:24 kados which bug?
16:24 slef who's ragni?
16:25 slef No bug. It didn't exist. Don't worry about it.
16:25 slef odd
16:25 slef rangi = Chris Cormack, but koha-announce is maintained by ragni
16:26 kados rangi?
16:26 slef typo in the list config?
16:26 kados must be
16:26 chris weird, pat musta typo'd when he shifted it over to me ..
16:26 kados bug it :-)
16:27 slef chris: can you fix and approve the recent queued announces?
16:27 kados hey chris
16:27 chris yep ill see if i can, i havent been getting any mail .. probably cos its sending it to ragni :) ill see
16:27 chris i can do it now
16:27 slef cool, tyvm
16:27 chris the dogs have woken me up, so theres no going back to bed
16:28 slef I need to reskew my day... currently working 9-11 and 15-21, which isn't ideal
16:28 chris i need to figure some way to make the dogs want to sleep in on weekends :-)
16:29 chris cant see it happening
16:29 slef oh yeah, it's tomorrow for you ;-)
16:29 slef Have you considered drugging their food? >:->
16:29 chris perhaps something not quite that drastic :)
16:30 kados yea well sugar gliders are nocturnal :-)
16:30 kados so I am sorta forced to get up every couple of hours
16:30 chris ahh
16:30 chris ok, typo fixed, and message approved
16:31 kados last night they got into my insectivore terrariam and ate some of my prized venus flytraps
16:32 chris ack
16:32 chris so they have free rein of the house at night?
16:32 kados pretty much
16:32 owen kados, it sounds like you've got quite a menagerie
16:33 kados I close out the kitchen and bathroom but the bedroom/living room is pretty much theirs
16:36 slef what's a sugar glider?
16:39 owen
16:40 owen[…]/sugarGlider.html
16:48 owen kados:  it looks like Gloria's problem is a real bug. The same thing happens in the 2.2 default template.
16:48 owen I wonder how long that's been broken?
16:50 slef "lost all its body weight and turned into a towel" - it'll be happy when the h2g2 movie is released next summer then?
16:51 kados slef: exactly, I never leave the house without my towels ;-)
16:52 kados owen: it's strange that noone noticed it before now
17:32 kados hehe, sage (one of the gliders) just woke up for a minute just in time for a photo opp
17:32 kados
17:33 chris heh
17:33 owen Cute!
17:33 owen How long have you had them?
17:34 kados willow (the other one) is in there too but she's a deep sleeper
17:34 kados about 4 months or so I guess
18:35 GenjiNapp hiya slef.
18:39 kados this has to be some kind of record:
18:39 kados koha:/usr/local/koha/log# uptime
18:39 kados 16:33:21 up 68 days,  4:31,  4 users,  load average: 137.92, 127.03, 80.62
18:42 kados I've got lots of  9136 www-data  20   0  7696 7692  1596 R     2.5  0.3   0:00
18:42 kados when I run top
18:43 kados chris around?
18:44 kados our load averate is usually about .33 or so
18:44 kados so 137.92 is really bad
18:48 kados I've disabled apache till I can get things under control
18:49 kados the marc_word table is corrupted so that may be one problem
19:00 kados I think that when marc_word got corrupted (for whatever reason) that triggered a lot of defunct processes and caused the high load
19:00 kados chris does that sound plausable?
19:00 kados marc_word is so huge that it's taking forever to repair
19:01 kados should finish up in about 5 minutes owen
19:02 owen Thanks Joshua.  I'm heading out.  Good luck.
19:02 kados take care owen
19:20 kados chris around?
19:21 chris sorta
19:21 chris still got load troubles?
19:22 kados no I think I got it fixed
19:22 chris cool
19:23 kados just wondering about that security you were mentioning online
19:23 kados on the list I mean
19:23 kados what kinds of measures do you take for your koha systems?
19:30 chris well, not making the librarian interface available to the world is the main one
19:30 kados right and that's done be replacing the allow from right?
19:31 chris you can do it that way
19:32 chris or just have the virtualhost only listening on the local interface
19:32 kados ahh
19:33 kados I didn't know about that one
19:34 chris say if its listening to somedomain.that.only.resolves.internally
19:35 kados and I'd have to set up that somedomain with an internal DNS server
19:35 chris then no one can get to it, otherwise you can put it behind some authentication
19:35 chris yep
19:35 kados which I don't have right now
19:35 kados hmmm
19:35 kados I'm in the middle of a security audit
19:35 kados we're basically screwed =[
19:35 kados I've got to start patching this stuff
19:41 chris which stuff?
19:47 kados si are you around?
20:36 Genji anyone active?
21:18 kados hey Genji
21:18 kados still around?
21:27 kados wow that's interesting ... I just noticed that OpenBSD has an ISBN
21:27 kados 3.6 Release:
21:27 kados Released November 1, 2004
21:27 kados Copyright 1997-2004, Theo de Raadt.
21:27 kados ISBN 0-9731791-4-7
00:18 si joshua: what sort of bandwidth runs between the libraries?
00:18 kados well our network has changed quite a bit over the past year
00:18 si and over what media (frame relay, ethernet, t1, ISDN?
00:18 kados for th branches that are directly connected we hav et1s
00:19 kados but a couple of our branches have cablemodem or dsl
00:19 kados the bandwidth is about 500Mb for those branches
00:19 si Kb, preumably
00:19 kados sorry  yea
00:20 kados hehe
00:20 si a 500Mb cable modem would indeed be a thing of beauty :)
00:20 kados sure would
00:20 kados so the t1s are 1.5 Mb :-)
00:20 si and you've got cisco's on the E1's, prolly 160x or 25xx class devices?
00:20 kados sorry the're T1s
00:21 si and who knows what on the cable modems/dsl?
00:21 kados yea 25xxs
00:21 si yes, sorry, T1's are E1's here,
00:21 kados well actually ... two of our branches also have a wireless connection
00:21 kados it's VPN to our main library
00:21 kados so they have 2500s
00:22 kados our T1 libraries have 2500s
00:22 kados our main library has a 4500 (which takes in all those 2500s)
00:22 si and what's the problem - lack of available support for the Cisco's, or some more specifc security issue?
00:22 kados this was a good idea a few years ago before cable and dsl got so cheap
00:23 kados right no support on the Ciscos
00:23 kados and I'm afraid there are probably major security vulnerabilities on such old systsms
00:24 si my perspective is that PC's make great routers/firewalls if you can render any given problem into one of routing ethernet
00:24 kados we're gradually seeing our network become less centralized (cause the price of cable or dsl is about 10% of our T1s)
00:24 si if you need to handle exotic telco media, then PC's become a lot less compelling, vs buying a box from the likes of Cisco
00:24 kados so I expect that within a few months most of our libraries will be running on cable or dsl
00:25 si ie, if you need isdn or t1 or atm or similar, then most of the cost justifications of PC's tend to go out the window
00:25 kados but these lines will only have one static address
00:25 si right
00:25 kados so we'll need to do dhcp and dns
00:25 si and if you move to DSL or CM, then your edge adapters basically become ethernet
00:25 kados right
00:26 si because they cable service probably comes with a modem that does cable to ethernet bridging
00:26 kados so pcs are good routers in that scenario right?
00:26 kados router/dns/dhcp?
00:26 si and DSL to ethernet routers are about US$50 a throw
00:26 si yes, for that sort of environment, PC's make a pretty good choice
00:26 kados well we don't actually have to pay for the dsl/cable to ethernet
00:26 kados the telco takes care of that cost
00:27 si yes, it often comes as part of the service
00:27 kados they expect you to have the hub/dhcp server/nics
00:27 si which you presumably do, in the main
00:27 kados and a firewall of course
00:27 kados right
00:27 kados the prob is our budget is so bad we need really cheap machines
00:28 si but you want to maintain reliability
00:28 si always an interesting tradeoff
00:28 kados we have seven branches all of which NEED a firewall/dhcp server/dns server
00:28 kados yep
00:28 si by DNS server you presumably mean a caching proxy, rather than something authoratitve?
00:28 kados I"m thinking we could spend about 200 per branch
00:29 si what sor of VPN requirements do you have between branches?
00:29 kados well chris mentioned the advantage of haveing something athorititave would be security for Koha
00:29 kados none really
00:29 kados we just need to make sure our koha authentication is secure
00:29 kados accross thosehostile netowrks
00:30 si so you need an https server, and a trusted DNS infrastructure
00:30 kados yep
00:30 kados well https is tricky ... I didn't think you could do that with virtual hosts
00:30 si I've deployed a lot of these things:
00:31 kados I was looking at them eariler they look like they're in our price range
00:31 kados do you think they would handle DNS and DHCP as well as a firewall for each branch?
00:31 si they're interesting - they behave pretty much like a low end PC
00:32 si yes, we have loads deployed in that sort of environment
00:32 kados sweet ... and the data speeds aren't going to bog them down, eh?
00:32 si depending on your OS choice and firewalling, they'll happily route at up to 20Mb/s, and bridge at 40Mb/s
00:32 si that's the 4501
00:32 kados cool
00:32 si the 4801'a are a bit faster
00:32 kados that's plenty fast for ue
00:33 kados us
00:33 si in terms of code to run on them, you're somewhat spoilt for choice
00:33 si which is a nice way of saying there is no one clear leader
00:33 kados well I've played with OpenBSD a bit
00:33 si there are web pages that discuss cutting down openbsd to fit on a CF
00:34 kados yea I figured ... I just wanted to get some confirmation from real world scenarios as to whether it was worth the investment, etc.
00:35 si at Citylink, we've been deploying PC's as routers for customers for about 8 years now
00:35 si initially floppy boot, then CF in IDE adapters, and so forth
00:35 kados cool
00:35 si using all sorts of hardware, biscuit PC's, small (micro-ATX) std PC's, all sorts of oddball bits
00:36 si depending on what was available
00:36 si the nice thing about the soekris units is that they've allowed us to standarddise
00:36 kados yea ... that's my goal too
00:36 kados right now everything is haywire
00:36 si the problem with using desktop PC hardware is that it's really difficult to get contenuity of supply for more than a few months
00:36 kados do you ssh into those machines or do you disable ssh?
00:37 si you get everything dialed on a specific set of hardware, and then it's no longer available
00:37 kados yea I hate that
00:37 si if you want something with a bit more herb, and can afford something a little bigger physically, then we've also had reasonable success with mini-ITX boards
00:37 kados upgrades become almost impossible cause the hardware doesn't exist any more
00:38 si they're not a lot bigger, and can still be run fanless
00:38 si fanless is really important, as is decent power supplies
00:38 si even the soekris units go wacky if you don't give them enough amps
00:38 si on our soekris boxes we run Bering
00:38 kados thanks for all the advice si
00:38 si which is a severly cut down debian
00:38 kados Bering?
00:39 kados ahh
00:39 kados not bsd?
00:39 si and we run ssh on them
00:39 kados why Bering over openbsd?
00:39 si and a couple of really newbie ex cablers
00:39 si and bering uses shorewall
00:40 si which is a firewalling overlay on top of iptables
00:40 si that makes firewalling on linux comprehensible
00:40 si since iptables sure as hell isn't
00:40 kados ahh
00:40 kados iptables is pretty tough
00:40 si so with something like 200 routers deployed, I've got a retraining issue if we change them
00:41 si we've played with monowall
00:41 si
00:41 si which is very slick, and great if you need an http GUI to manage the router
00:41 si but not as featurefull as our Bering load.
00:42 si we also use vtun and openvpn on top of Bering, which allows us to do ethernet bridging between different locations, over IP
00:42 kados that sounds pretty useful
00:43 si it's useful in our environment - it means we don't have to get involved with customer routing
00:43 kados Thanks si ... I've gotta run but I'll be sure to let you know how it turns out
00:43 si it becomse a more classic "packets you push in here, come out over there" type service
00:43 si no worries
00:43 si one other site to look at
00:43 si
00:44 si is particularly loony
00:44 si but they do have great 1U boxes for PIII and P4, with lots of ethernet ports
00:44 si we use them for high end
00:44 si
10:19 slef ho hum... left this connected overnight
10:19 slef hi all

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