Time Nick Message 11:00 Genji and excited by what ive achieved with koha. 11:00 paul <troll on> Pepsi is bad, coca is the only best</troll> 11:00 Genji hey, i had coke this morning.. its good. 11:00 paul (was purely a joke, i drink none, and my boys didn't too) 11:00 paul (we just drink water & fruit juices on the morning) 11:01 Genji hmmm.. okay.. peps say that tables don't show up the same on all browsers. not sure what that means. 11:02 Genji ack.. i can't even use the main page with opera. 11:02 paul the main problem with tables, is that they were NOT planned to be used to define the position of something on the screen 11:02 Genji the main menu... 11:03 paul you're right. 11:03 Genji too much ie/mozilla based javascript. 11:03 paul worked before. I'll investigate... 11:03 paul (i use opera sometimes, as opera is available on linux !) 11:05 Genji whats a hint class? 11:05 paul ?? 11:05 Genji hey, you can now run linux on top of windows. Colinux. :) 11:06 Genji <!-- RIGHT (disappearing) BLOC --> 11:06 Genji <div id="Hint1" class="hint"> 11:06 paul to have the bugs of Windows without the speed of Linux, no, thanks ;-) 11:06 paul (and i have no legal licence of Windows anyway !) 11:06 paul it's a CSS class just to put the white box on the left. 11:06 Genji Opera supports hint classes? 11:06 paul i modified it to work on IE, but seems it has broken something for OPera... 11:07 paul hint is not a pre defined class 11:07 paul in CSS, you can define the class name you need 11:07 Genji ah. okay. 11:07 paul go to templates/default/en/includes/commonstyles.css 11:07 paul and search hint 11:08 paul you'll find how it's defined. 11:08 paul probably a problem with margin-left or something like that 11:09 Genji actually, its intranet-main.ccs 11:11 Genji Doubled margin-left, no diff. 11:11 Genji i think its the javascript... not sure... 11:11 Genji the menu should still show if its ccs prob? 11:12 paul in fact, the menu is hidden by the hint "circulation", that is the last one, and is not enough on the right. 11:14 Genji ahh.. interesting. 11:15 Genji so the fix is? 11:16 paul just need tests... 11:16 paul i'm not a CSS warlord, just a basis fighter ;-) 11:17 Genji why are we using these fancy javascript menus anyway? 11:17 paul no good reason. Just to have a sexy mainpage... 11:18 Genji one that a opera user can't use. 11:18 paul no, of course ;-) 11:18 paul if you have another one that is sexy and works on any browser, let us know ! 11:19 Genji the old mainpage was good. 11:23 paul but untranslatable... 11:23 paul as hints were pictures 11:23 paul (& the "Koha a gift, a contribution text") 11:23 paul don't forget some librarians are happy to see Koha in their native language ;-) 11:24 Genji true... okay.. its 3:23 am.. and fatiage is hitting my body. what time your usually up to? 11:25 Genji up/online. 11:25 paul ... 11:25 paul 7AM-17AM (GMT) 11:25 paul i'm just 12H from you. 11:26 paul when 8AM for you, 8PM for me. 11:26 paul which is the worst thing we could expect 11:26 Genji so, you knock off in 2 hours, then? 11:26 paul say 3 11:26 paul and a half 11:26 Genji hmmm... nah. can't stay up. bed looks really good right now. 11:27 paul :-D 11:27 Genji what do you think of the object orientated shelf tree? 11:27 paul I think it's a good idea 11:28 paul but I don't see yet how to code it... 11:28 Genji how would you implement it, with the new permissions code? 11:28 paul that's what i don't see for instance. 11:29 Genji i mean, i can code the basic virtual shelf.. but tying the permissions code into it.. im just not sure how to. 11:30 paul do what you can, and, free software miracle, someone will complete it ! 11:30 paul (me or someone else) 11:30 Genji Virtual shelf tree table (shelfparent int, shelfchild int) 11:31 Genji main shelf defined as a systempreference. 11:32 Genji example data... (1,3)(3,4)(4,5) 11:33 paul yes, I understand this. The next topic being to have a opac-page to "swim" into virtual shelves 11:33 Genji or, resolved to names, maybe (Main hall,General)(General,Buddhism)(Buddhism,Zen) 11:35 Genji AHHA! 11:35 paul yes, and how do you fill your virtual shelves ? 11:35 Genji new itemtype "intranet" 11:35 paul for a 100 000 library book, it's really a huge job ! 11:36 Genji a web link, that when put into a virtual shelf, is a instant web link, rather than a click for details. 11:36 Genji point the intranet web link at another shelf... 11:36 Genji that would work? 11:38 Genji for our library, our subject areas are going to have barcodes on their labels. 11:38 Genji we type in the subject areas, map the parent-child relationships, scan the books into the subject areas. 11:39 Genji simultaniously stocktaking( updating last seen) and filling the virtual shelves. 11:39 paul very good suggestion ! 11:42 Genji hmmm... virtual shelf-add new item, listbox of itemtypes, select shelve, shows you a dropdown of shelves, select one, and thats added to the current virtual shelf. 11:46 Genji in shelfcontents, what are possible flags, currently? 11:59 Genji ohhh! flags is unused, there for future use... okay.. ill use it. 12:00 Genji flag set to 1 equals shelfitem is another virtual shelf, so go to it when clicked. 12:06 Genji okay, going to bed, but keeping this open. 12:09 paul g'night 12:09 paul hello owen 12:09 paul g'morning 12:10 owen Hi paul. I just sent you an email--I don't get any online help for ISBD. Are you sure it's there? 12:10 paul yes, it's in Koha >> Parameters >> systempreferences >> Help 12:11 owen when I click 'help' it says there isn't any help for that topic. 12:11 paul are you with default template or npl ? 12:11 owen css 12:11 paul and language english. 12:11 paul mmm... strange. 12:11 owen yes 12:12 paul what do you have after "insecure" parameter help ? 12:12 paul ok, I understand 12:12 paul i have not commited online help :-( 12:12 paul so it's in 2.2.0RC1 official, but not on CVS... 12:13 owen That explains it! 12:13 paul ok, it's on CVS now ! 12:13 paul can you update immediatly or you want a copy ? 12:13 paul here 12:13 paul ? 12:14 owen Thanks! :) I'll update. 12:15 paul (you can see it on bureau.paulpoulain.com:808/cgi-bin/koha/opac-ISBDdetail.pl?bib=2369) 12:15 paul 8081 NOT 808 12:19 owen Is 'default' the most current template now? 12:21 paul for librarian intranet, css does not exist, so Koha automatically uses default 12:21 paul for OPAC, default is useless, css is OK 12:27 owen Should the variable type for the ISBD system preference value be textarea? 12:28 owen No, that doesn't seem to work 12:28 paul yes, that should. 12:28 paul use EXACTLY the typo as shown : 12:28 paul Textarea iirc 12:28 paul with row|colums under 12:29 paul works fine for me 12:29 owen Oh, I forgot about the row|columns 12:29 owen On our installation is comes up as 'free'. I'm not sure why 12:33 owen If I enter this: #245|Title: {245a}| Shouldn't that display the contents of the 245 tag, subfield a? 12:33 paul yes. except you need 1 more | 12:34 paul #245|Title:|{245a}| 12:35 owen I see. 12:37 owen By the way, this link in the intranet doesn't work for me: /cgi-bin/koha/bookshelves/shelves.pl 13:08 paul owen, about shelves 13:08 paul seems there is a cvs problem too 13:08 paul i'm fixing it 13:08 owen Thanks 14:08 paul 2.2.0RC2 has been released 15:47 kados paul around? 16:07 owen no, but I am now 16:08 kados hey owen :-) 16:08 owen How's it going? 16:08 kados pretty good 16:08 kados how about you? 16:09 owen Just looking into Gloria's post about subject searches... 16:10 kados right ... 16:10 kados I was going to ask paul whether he'd thought much about subject searches in Koha 2.2 16:12 owen It's different that the way our production version works. It doesn't bring up the list of subject headings anymore. 16:12 owen ...but I don't know what fields it searches. 16:13 kados gloria must be talking about intranet searches ... the opac seems to work normally 16:14 kados yep ... /me checks the logs 16:15 owen Is there an error? 16:16 kados I don't see one yet 16:16 kados for that prob 16:16 kados there are a few other errors: 16:16 kados [Fri Nov 19 13:45:43 2004] [error] [client 192.168.5.27] File does not exist: /usr/local/koha/intranet/htdocs/favicon.ico 16:16 owen What is all that 'Duplicate entry '3400000000'? 16:16 kados Doing a precise search 16:16 kados DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Duplicate entry '340000000' for key 2 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules/C4/Biblio.pm line 1519. 16:16 kados I've no idea 16:19 kados it's in the OLDdelitem subrouting 16:20 slef hello... Does anyone know when paul will return? 16:20 kados not sure slef 16:20 owen Paul's probably off for the night. 16:21 kados he's usually here only in the mornings 16:21 owen (our mornings) 16:21 kados us mornings that is :-) 16:21 slef he left just over 2h ago, says whowas 16:21 slef oh well, I'll fix the bug and send email 16:22 kados so for you that'd be early afternoon slef (its what about 7ish now in UK?) 16:23 slef 1920 or so here now 16:24 slef ah, bug didn't exist 16:24 slef the best kind of bug :) 16:24 kados which bug? 16:24 slef who's ragni? 16:25 slef No bug. It didn't exist. Don't worry about it. 16:25 slef odd 16:25 slef rangi = Chris Cormack, but koha-announce is maintained by ragni 16:26 kados rangi? 16:26 slef typo in the list config? 16:26 kados must be 16:26 chris weird, pat musta typo'd when he shifted it over to me .. 16:26 kados bug it :-) 16:27 slef chris: can you fix and approve the recent queued announces? 16:27 kados hey chris 16:27 chris yep ill see if i can, i havent been getting any mail .. probably cos its sending it to ragni :) ill see 16:27 chris i can do it now 16:27 slef cool, tyvm 16:27 chris the dogs have woken me up, so theres no going back to bed 16:28 slef I need to reskew my day... currently working 9-11 and 15-21, which isn't ideal 16:28 chris i need to figure some way to make the dogs want to sleep in on weekends :-) 16:29 chris cant see it happening 16:29 slef oh yeah, it's tomorrow for you ;-) 16:29 slef Have you considered drugging their food? >:-> 16:29 chris perhaps something not quite that drastic :) 16:30 kados yea well sugar gliders are nocturnal :-) 16:30 kados so I am sorta forced to get up every couple of hours 16:30 chris ahh 16:30 chris ok, typo fixed, and message approved 16:31 kados last night they got into my insectivore terrariam and ate some of my prized venus flytraps 16:32 chris ack 16:32 chris so they have free rein of the house at night? 16:32 kados pretty much 16:32 owen kados, it sounds like you've got quite a menagerie 16:33 kados I close out the kitchen and bathroom but the bedroom/living room is pretty much theirs 16:36 slef what's a sugar glider? 16:39 owen http://www.skinhorse.net/gliders/ 16:40 owen http://www.chaffeezoo.org/animals/sugarGlider.html 16:48 owen kados: it looks like Gloria's problem is a real bug. The same thing happens in the 2.2 default template. 16:48 owen I wonder how long that's been broken? 16:50 slef "lost all its body weight and turned into a towel" - it'll be happy when the h2g2 movie is released next summer then? 16:51 kados slef: exactly, I never leave the house without my towels ;-) 16:52 kados owen: it's strange that noone noticed it before now 17:32 kados hehe, sage (one of the gliders) just woke up for a minute just in time for a photo opp 17:32 kados http://kados.org/images/sage.gif 17:33 chris heh 17:33 owen Cute! 17:33 owen How long have you had them? 17:34 kados willow (the other one) is in there too but she's a deep sleeper 17:34 kados about 4 months or so I guess 18:35 GenjiNapp hiya slef. 18:39 kados this has to be some kind of record: 18:39 kados koha:/usr/local/koha/log# uptime 18:39 kados 16:33:21 up 68 days, 4:31, 4 users, load average: 137.92, 127.03, 80.62 18:42 kados I've got lots of 9136 www-data 20 0 7696 7692 1596 R 2.5 0.3 0:00 mainpage.pl 18:42 kados when I run top 18:43 kados chris around? 18:44 kados our load averate is usually about .33 or so 18:44 kados so 137.92 is really bad 18:48 kados I've disabled apache till I can get things under control 18:49 kados the marc_word table is corrupted so that may be one problem 19:00 kados I think that when marc_word got corrupted (for whatever reason) that triggered a lot of defunct processes and caused the high load 19:00 kados chris does that sound plausable? 19:00 kados marc_word is so huge that it's taking forever to repair 19:01 kados should finish up in about 5 minutes owen 19:02 owen Thanks Joshua. I'm heading out. Good luck. 19:02 kados take care owen 19:20 kados chris around? 19:21 chris sorta 19:21 chris still got load troubles? 19:22 kados no I think I got it fixed 19:22 chris cool 19:23 kados just wondering about that security you were mentioning online 19:23 kados on the list I mean 19:23 kados what kinds of measures do you take for your koha systems? 19:30 chris well, not making the librarian interface available to the world is the main one 19:30 kados right and that's done be replacing the allow from right? 19:31 chris you can do it that way 19:32 chris or just have the virtualhost only listening on the local interface 19:32 kados ahh 19:33 kados I didn't know about that one 19:34 chris say if its listening to somedomain.that.only.resolves.internally 19:35 kados and I'd have to set up that somedomain with an internal DNS server 19:35 chris then no one can get to it, otherwise you can put it behind some authentication 19:35 chris yep 19:35 kados which I don't have right now 19:35 kados hmmm 19:35 kados I'm in the middle of a security audit 19:35 kados we're basically screwed =[ 19:35 kados I've got to start patching this stuff 19:41 chris which stuff? 19:47 kados si are you around? 20:36 Genji anyone active? 21:18 kados hey Genji 21:18 kados still around? 21:27 kados wow that's interesting ... I just noticed that OpenBSD has an ISBN 21:27 kados 3.6 Release: 21:27 kados Released November 1, 2004 21:27 kados Copyright 1997-2004, Theo de Raadt. 21:27 kados ISBN 0-9731791-4-7 00:18 si joshua: what sort of bandwidth runs between the libraries? 00:18 kados well our network has changed quite a bit over the past year 00:18 si and over what media (frame relay, ethernet, t1, ISDN? 00:18 kados for th branches that are directly connected we hav et1s 00:19 kados but a couple of our branches have cablemodem or dsl 00:19 kados the bandwidth is about 500Mb for those branches 00:19 si Kb, preumably 00:19 kados sorry yea 00:20 kados hehe 00:20 si a 500Mb cable modem would indeed be a thing of beauty :) 00:20 kados sure would 00:20 kados so the t1s are 1.5 Mb :-) 00:20 si and you've got cisco's on the E1's, prolly 160x or 25xx class devices? 00:20 kados sorry the're T1s 00:21 si and who knows what on the cable modems/dsl? 00:21 kados yea 25xxs 00:21 si yes, sorry, T1's are E1's here, 00:21 kados well actually ... two of our branches also have a wireless connection 00:21 kados it's VPN to our main library 00:21 kados so they have 2500s 00:22 kados our T1 libraries have 2500s 00:22 kados our main library has a 4500 (which takes in all those 2500s) 00:22 si and what's the problem - lack of available support for the Cisco's, or some more specifc security issue? 00:22 kados this was a good idea a few years ago before cable and dsl got so cheap 00:23 kados right no support on the Ciscos 00:23 kados and I'm afraid there are probably major security vulnerabilities on such old systsms 00:24 si my perspective is that PC's make great routers/firewalls if you can render any given problem into one of routing ethernet 00:24 kados we're gradually seeing our network become less centralized (cause the price of cable or dsl is about 10% of our T1s) 00:24 si if you need to handle exotic telco media, then PC's become a lot less compelling, vs buying a box from the likes of Cisco 00:24 kados so I expect that within a few months most of our libraries will be running on cable or dsl 00:25 si ie, if you need isdn or t1 or atm or similar, then most of the cost justifications of PC's tend to go out the window 00:25 kados but these lines will only have one static address 00:25 si right 00:25 kados so we'll need to do dhcp and dns 00:25 si and if you move to DSL or CM, then your edge adapters basically become ethernet 00:25 kados right 00:26 si because they cable service probably comes with a modem that does cable to ethernet bridging 00:26 kados so pcs are good routers in that scenario right? 00:26 kados router/dns/dhcp? 00:26 si and DSL to ethernet routers are about US$50 a throw 00:26 si yes, for that sort of environment, PC's make a pretty good choice 00:26 kados well we don't actually have to pay for the dsl/cable to ethernet 00:26 kados the telco takes care of that cost 00:27 si yes, it often comes as part of the service 00:27 kados they expect you to have the hub/dhcp server/nics 00:27 si which you presumably do, in the main 00:27 kados and a firewall of course 00:27 kados right 00:27 kados the prob is our budget is so bad we need really cheap machines 00:28 si but you want to maintain reliability 00:28 si always an interesting tradeoff 00:28 kados we have seven branches all of which NEED a firewall/dhcp server/dns server 00:28 kados yep 00:28 si by DNS server you presumably mean a caching proxy, rather than something authoratitve? 00:28 kados I"m thinking we could spend about 200 per branch 00:29 si what sor of VPN requirements do you have between branches? 00:29 kados well chris mentioned the advantage of haveing something athorititave would be security for Koha 00:29 kados none really 00:29 kados we just need to make sure our koha authentication is secure 00:29 kados accross thosehostile netowrks 00:30 si so you need an https server, and a trusted DNS infrastructure 00:30 kados yep 00:30 kados well https is tricky ... I didn't think you could do that with virtual hosts 00:30 si I've deployed a lot of these things: http://www.soekris.com/ 00:31 kados I was looking at them eariler they look like they're in our price range 00:31 kados do you think they would handle DNS and DHCP as well as a firewall for each branch? 00:31 si they're interesting - they behave pretty much like a low end PC 00:32 si yes, we have loads deployed in that sort of environment 00:32 kados sweet ... and the data speeds aren't going to bog them down, eh? 00:32 si depending on your OS choice and firewalling, they'll happily route at up to 20Mb/s, and bridge at 40Mb/s 00:32 si that's the 4501 00:32 kados cool 00:32 si the 4801'a are a bit faster 00:32 kados that's plenty fast for ue 00:33 kados us 00:33 si in terms of code to run on them, you're somewhat spoilt for choice 00:33 si which is a nice way of saying there is no one clear leader 00:33 kados well I've played with OpenBSD a bit 00:33 si there are web pages that discuss cutting down openbsd to fit on a CF 00:34 kados yea I figured ... I just wanted to get some confirmation from real world scenarios as to whether it was worth the investment, etc. 00:35 si at Citylink, we've been deploying PC's as routers for customers for about 8 years now 00:35 si initially floppy boot, then CF in IDE adapters, and so forth 00:35 kados cool 00:35 si using all sorts of hardware, biscuit PC's, small (micro-ATX) std PC's, all sorts of oddball bits 00:36 si depending on what was available 00:36 si the nice thing about the soekris units is that they've allowed us to standarddise 00:36 kados yea ... that's my goal too 00:36 kados right now everything is haywire 00:36 si the problem with using desktop PC hardware is that it's really difficult to get contenuity of supply for more than a few months 00:36 kados do you ssh into those machines or do you disable ssh? 00:37 si you get everything dialed on a specific set of hardware, and then it's no longer available 00:37 kados yea I hate that 00:37 si if you want something with a bit more herb, and can afford something a little bigger physically, then we've also had reasonable success with mini-ITX boards 00:37 kados upgrades become almost impossible cause the hardware doesn't exist any more 00:38 si they're not a lot bigger, and can still be run fanless 00:38 si fanless is really important, as is decent power supplies 00:38 si even the soekris units go wacky if you don't give them enough amps 00:38 si on our soekris boxes we run Bering 00:38 kados thanks for all the advice si 00:38 si which is a severly cut down debian 00:38 kados Bering? 00:39 kados ahh 00:39 kados not bsd? 00:39 si and we run ssh on them 00:39 kados why Bering over openbsd? 00:39 si and a couple of really newbie ex cablers 00:39 si and bering uses shorewall 00:40 si which is a firewalling overlay on top of iptables 00:40 si that makes firewalling on linux comprehensible 00:40 si since iptables sure as hell isn't 00:40 kados ahh 00:40 kados iptables is pretty tough 00:40 si so with something like 200 routers deployed, I've got a retraining issue if we change them 00:41 si we've played with monowall 00:41 si http://m0n0.ch/wall/ 00:41 si which is very slick, and great if you need an http GUI to manage the router 00:41 si but not as featurefull as our Bering load. 00:42 si we also use vtun and openvpn on top of Bering, which allows us to do ethernet bridging between different locations, over IP 00:42 kados that sounds pretty useful 00:43 si it's useful in our environment - it means we don't have to get involved with customer routing 00:43 kados Thanks si ... I've gotta run but I'll be sure to let you know how it turns out 00:43 si it becomse a more classic "packets you push in here, come out over there" type service 00:43 si no worries 00:43 si one other site to look at 00:43 si http://nexcom.com.tw/ 00:44 si is particularly loony 00:44 si but they do have great 1U boxes for PIII and P4, with lots of ethernet ports 00:44 si we use them for high end 00:44 si http://nsa.nexcom.com.tw/index.jsp 10:19 slef ho hum... left this connected overnight 10:19 slef hi all