IRC log for #koha, 2012-10-08

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
05:32 logbot joined #koha
05:32 Topic for #koha is now Welcome to #koha this channel is for discussion of the Koha project and software The next general meeting is 10 October 2012 10 UTC
05:42 kf joined #koha
05:42 kf good morning #koha
05:44 rangi hi kf
05:48 kohakhan joined #koha
05:55 eythian rangi: yeah, thinking maybe them\
05:55 kf eythian: still raining? :)
05:55 eythian No, it's stopped for now.
05:59 kf ah, so you went to training? ;)
06:00 eythian no, it was raining earlier.
06:00 eythian I did work instead.
06:00 kf excuse?
06:00 wahanui kf: My pony-tail hit the on/off switch on the power strip.
06:09 laurence joined #koha
06:09 mtj kf, theres a backup of the #irc logs here .. ->
06:12 magnuse kia ora #koha!
06:13 rangi hi magnuse
06:13 magnuse hiya rangi
06:13 magnuse how was monday?
06:13 rangi not too bad
06:13 magnuse yay
06:13 rangi a bit rainy
06:13 magnuse :-)
06:13 magnuse @wunder boo
06:14 magnuse @wunder boo
06:14 huginn magnuse: The current temperature in Bodo Vi, Norway is 5.0°C (8:00 AM CEST on October 08, 2012). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 62%. Dew Point: 0.0°C. Pressure: 29.54 in 1000 hPa (Falling).
06:14 magnuse ah, and spring is approaching in nz of course - lucky you!
06:14 magnuse ooh lucky reas too, moving from autumn to spring :-)
06:15 rangi heh no winter for them this year
06:15 magnuse yay!
06:16 magnuse @wunder wellington, nz
06:16 huginn magnuse: The current temperature in Wellington, New Zealand is 15.0°C (7:00 PM NZDT on October 08, 2012). Conditions: Rain Showers. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 13.0°C. Pressure: 29.56 in 1001 hPa (Steady).
06:18 mtj … and hi magnuse, rangi , kf
06:18 magnuse kia ora mtj!
06:19 * mtj hopefully meeting brooke for a night-before beer, soonish...
06:20 magnuse say hi from me then, please!
06:20 mtj yep, will do :)
06:20 magnuse night-before?
06:21 mib_xk6whv joined #koha
06:21 mib_xk6whv hi..
06:21 mtj magnuse, i think shes flying back to USA tomorrow
06:22 magnuse ah, ok
06:22 mtj hi mib_xk6whv
06:22 magnuse my first thought was someone getting married - no idea why...
06:23 mtj aaah yep, thats the other night-before :)
06:23 mib_xk6whv dear one doubt...........
06:23 mib_xk6whv about koha
06:24 magnuse rangi++ for whining
06:26 magnuse hehe, norwegian hobbit-queuers got their premiere tickets yesterday :-)
06:26 rangi hehe
06:26 mib_xk6whv kooii kooii...
06:26 eythian Why is ExtendedPatronAttributes even an option? You can always just not use them.
06:26 rangi don't ask to ask, just ask
06:27 rangi eythian: display thing the box shows up even if you dont use them
06:27 eythian in that case, it shouldn't unless there are some defined :)
06:27 magnuse eythian: patches accepted ;-)
06:27 rangi yep, but you might have some defined then not want to use them
06:28 rangi you could put it on by default for new installs
06:28 rangi that would make sense
06:28 mib_xk6whv yaa..yaaaa
06:29 eythian mib_xk6whv: are you just making noise?
06:29 mib_xk6whv noo..noo...
06:31 eythian well that was strange.
06:31 rangi yep
06:31 rangi mibbit
06:32 rangi keeping things weird
06:32 kf heh :)
06:32 kf morning all again, mtj , magnuse, eythian, rangi
06:33 magnuse kia ora kf!
06:33 rangi someone in delhi
06:48 reiveune joined #koha
06:48 reiveune hello
06:50 rangi hi reiveune
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06:58 magnuse bonjour france :-)
06:58 alex_a bonjour
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07:22 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 7339] Help System in IE8-9 Does Not Load With 500 Error <[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7339> / [Bug 6875] de-nesting C4 packages <[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6875> / [Bug 6536] Z3950 Enhancements: SRU targets, MARC conversion, additional XSLT processing <[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6536> / [Bug 7127] Templates must be valid XHTML
07:22 eythian| joined #koha
07:22 eythian| mtj: where at?
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07:48 kf hi reiveune and asaurat :)
07:53 asaurat hi kf! =)
07:56 reiveune hi :)
08:00 paul_p joined #koha
08:04 magnuse kia ora paul_p!
08:21 logbot joined #koha
08:29 Topic for #koha is now Welcome to #koha this channel is for discussion of the Koha project and software The next general meeting is 10 October 2012 10 UTC
08:43 rangi when did we add the lists permissions stuff?
08:49 magnuse bug 7805?
08:49 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7805 enhancement, P5 - low, ---,, Pushed to Master , Exposing the new list permissions in opac and staff
08:54 magnuse bug 7310
08:56 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7310 enhancement, P3, ---,, Pushed to Master , Improving permissions on lists (virtual shelves)
09:03 rangi ta
09:03 kf @wunder Konstanz
09:03 huginn kf: The current temperature in Konstanz, Germany is 9.0°C (10:00 AM CEST on October 08, 2012). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 81%. Dew Point: 7.0°C. Pressure: 30.19 in 1022 hPa (Falling).
09:03 kf brr.
09:03 magnuse @wunder boo
09:03 huginn magnuse: The current temperature in Bodo, Norway is 5.0°C (9:50 AM CEST on October 08, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 70%. Dew Point: 0.0°C. Windchill: 1.0°C. Pressure: 29.50 in 999 hPa (Falling).
09:04 magnuse @wunder osl
09:04 huginn magnuse: The current temperature in Holter S, Nannestad, Norway is 6.4°C (10:16 AM CEST on October 08, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 75%. Dew Point: 2.0°C. Windchill: 6.0°C. Pressure: 29.74 in 1007 hPa (Steady).
09:04 kf BRR.
09:04 magnuse :-)
09:06 logbot joined #koha
09:08 Topic for #koha is now Welcome to #koha this channel is for discussion of the Koha project and software The next general meeting is 10 October 2012 10 UTC
09:09 sidd joined #koha
09:09 sidd hi, I am trying to acquire the first book in my library but am unable to edit quantity. I also see a message asking me to create a ACQ framework
09:10 mascha @drojf: many, many thanks - you saved my life :-) I tried a fresh installation of firefox and It work's! I am too new at koha but will hard working to get a profi...
09:10 huginn mascha: I'll give you the answer just as soon as RDA is ready
09:11 drojf mascha: you're welcome :) where are you from?
09:12 mascha berlin, I'm a teacher and want to make our school-library with koha during holiday
09:22 drojf mascha: have we been writing emails? i'm from berlin too ;)
09:22 * drojf giggles
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09:22 mascha-berlin @drojf so you are from Humboldt-Uni?
09:22 huginn mascha-berlin: I've exhausted my database of quotes
09:22 drojf mascha-berlin: yup :)
09:22 mascha-berlin auweia. ist das peinlich :-(
09:22 drojf mascha-berlin: don't put @ in front of the name, it confuses the bot ;)
09:22 rangi sidd: are you sure you are wanting to order ... not just catalogue something?
09:22 drojf wieso peinlich? die koha-welt ist klein ;)
09:24 mascha-berlin ok, Ich melde mich per Mail via Uni, bis dann
09:25 drojf ok bis dann
09:25 sidd rangi, i want to add a few books and noted that acquisition is the first step.
09:27 rangi only if you want to order them
09:27 sidd so how do I add books without ordering?
09:27 rangi acquisitions is for acquisitioning (usually purchasing, sometimes you use it for donations too)
09:27 rangi you just catalogue them
09:28 sidd :) you mean go through the MARC21 form? whew..ok. any simpler (human understandable) form?
09:29 sidd And why doesn't it let me specify quantity if I am ordering them?
09:30 drojf sidd: quantity is specified by how often you use 'add' at the bottom of the form
09:30 kf sidd: you need to press the plus sign in the form
09:30 kf but that can be changed with AcqCreateItem system preference
09:30 drojf oh it's a plus now?
09:30 kf and i missed the school teacher from berlin :(
09:30 kf ah no, it's add
09:30 kf it used to be a plus, but I found it hard to click and changed it
09:34 sidd oh, but i filled the form once and it still showed 0 :(
09:36 kf yes, you have to click the little link at the bottom of the form
09:36 kf then the item will show up in the table above and the quantitiy will increase
09:40 sidd kf: I changed the AcqCreateItem preference
09:40 sidd So to add books without ordering them, I have to fill in the MARC21 form, right?
09:41 sidd and My Z39.50 search shows no targets. I probably did not install any. Can I enter some now?
09:45 kf yes
09:45 kf under administration > z39.50 targets
09:45 kf but that's in the manual :)
09:46 sidd :) thanks. will read the manual
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09:58 gaetan_B when installing in marc21, should i use dom or grs1 ?
09:59 kf hm
09:59 kf is it for a production system?
10:00 kf there is a bug with duplicate 001 records not getting indexed correctly, with a workaround in bugzilla
10:00 kf if you use it for tsting I would go with dom
10:01 gaetan_B well it will be a production system soonish yes
10:01 gaetan_B kf you have the bug number at hand ?
10:02 gaetan_B hmm ok, i guess i'll consider dom as still experimental then ;) thanks kf !
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10:03 magnuse gaetan_B: bug 8665
10:03 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=8665 normal, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , DOM indexing fails to index some bib records
10:04 kf ah sorry, yes this one
10:05 kf gaetan_B: dom is better in general I think, maybe you could switch when updating, not sure how hard that is
10:06 gaetan_B kf: we'll see this later then, i'd rather give them something solid right now ;)
10:07 kf maybe read through the bug
10:08 kf marc21 ... where is the library? :)
10:10 kf only curious :)
10:25 kf hi matts_away
10:25 * magnuse manages to create and delete a stream (for the digital signs) with Test::WWW::Mechanize - and wanders off to lunch to celebrate
10:25 kf nice!
10:26 sidd ok, i imported a book using Z39.50. now when I to a catalog search I see the book in catalog and in reservoir. Is that ok? I don't see the book acquired using acquisition
10:27 sidd I mean the book acquired by ordering is not there in the biblio, only in the catalog, while the imported book is in both.
10:27 kf yes, that's ok
10:28 kf reservoir is only some kind of shadow catalog
10:28 sidd oh ok, I tried hard to delete that book :)
10:29 mtompset joined #koha
10:29 mtompset Greetings, #koha.
10:37 drojf hi mtompset
10:37 mtompset Greetings, drojf.
10:37 mtompset How's the raspberry pi?
10:38 drojf fine, not really used much. runs 3.8.5 smoothly
10:40 mtompset Not used much? Poor pi. :(
10:41 drojf can't play all day :(
10:41 drojf also spent some time trying useless stuff. just installed koha 3.8.5 on centos to see how that goes ;)
10:45 mtompset You will find >18 libraries missing from the DEFAULT repos.
10:46 kf drojf: and that's not palying?
10:46 * kf goes to lunch :)
10:46 mtompset kf++ # good zinger!
10:46 drojf mtompset: i cpan'ed like crazy
10:46 mtompset Nooooooooo!
10:47 * mtompset grins.
10:47 mtompset I did initially too.
10:47 drojf kf: it is. can't play all day, and spent playtime with that. so less pi ;)
10:47 mtompset Though, you can get some more if you are willing to try fedora repos.
10:54 drojf seems to work locally. can't connect from the host, no idea if that is a virtualbox thing or a centos thing. not sure if i want to know, i think i've seen enough of this. it's a pita to install, not sure if zebra would be working as i have no biblios. i think i'll save that part for some bad winter day.
11:05 mtompset Can't connect from host? Did you set your network settings correctly?
11:13 WaqarAzeem Hello! is there anyoption in option for administrator to print the patron card directly from his prfile webpage ie. Home › Patrons › Patron details
11:13 WaqarAzeem instead of batch card printing
11:40 kf marcelr++
11:41 magnuse bug 8889?
11:41 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=8889 enhancement, P5 - low, ---,, ASSIGNED , Optionally compose Unicode characters when saving MARC record
11:41 kf yep
11:41 magnuse yeah, sounds promising
11:43 mtompset Yes, it does. I was sad there was no patch to read. :(
11:45 magnuse let's hope it's on its way :-)
11:46 kf magnuse: sorry, I have to kill your suggestion :(
11:47 kf magnuse: no translations for a sys pref
11:49 mtompset What suggestion?
11:49 wahanui suggestion is that we butter up nengard and ask for her survey setup another time
11:49 mtompset wahanui: forget suggestion
11:49 wahanui mtompset: I forgot suggestion
11:49 magnuse kf: gah!
11:49 * kf hides
11:50 magnuse kf: it was too simple a solution to be true...
11:50 mtompset Oh that suggestion.
11:50 jcamins magnuse: you could use something similar to what I did with DidYouMean.
11:50 kf maybe
11:50 mtompset Good morning, jcamins.
11:51 * magnuse has not looked at DidYouMean (yet)
11:51 jcamins kf made me do very complicated things.
11:52 kf what, me?
11:52 * kf is innocent
11:52 mtompset Well, isn't being annoying part of the job description?
11:52 kf not elected yet
11:53 mtompset kf: ratified. Who would say no to you?
11:53 * kf knows lots of people
11:53 mtompset Given the job description, and what jcamins just said, that wouldn't make sense to me. :)
11:54 kf jcamins: not sure how that would work for our problem here? the did you mean?
11:54 kf magnuse: maybe we could do something like I did for the export options
11:55 kf magnuse: you couldn't add any new index like this, but at least you could kill some you don't want and we could have a bigger list than default waiting to be activated
11:55 kf it's a case construct
11:55 kf switch/case whatever you call that
11:56 mtompset either, I'm pretty sure we know what you mean. Or did you mean something else? ;)
11:56 kf probably
11:56 kf ;)
11:58 magnuse well, sounds like lots of good ideas - now get coding! ;-)
11:58 kf no time for play today :(
12:07 mtompset slides?
12:07 wahanui kf should be writing slides
12:19 kf not today
12:20 kf today kf should be planning a training
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12:27 paul_p joined #koha
12:28 * paul_p testing IRC with thunderbird today !
12:29 kf irc with thunderbird? :)
12:30 paul_p kf: yep. And also twitter !
12:30 kf hm via plugin?
12:30 kf or is this part of the program?
12:31 paul_p kf: instant messaging added in thunderbird 14. Now, in thunderbird 15, it becomes to be quite handy
12:31 kf interesting
12:31 wahanui hmmm... interesting is sometimes good and sometimes bad
12:31 magnuse kf: a training without slides?
12:31 kf magnuse: more hands on and showing things
12:31 paul_p and you've everything in one app, and are able to search over IRC history, mails, twitter,...
12:31 kf maybe a few slides to show workflows
12:32 kf drojf: ping ping ping
12:32 kf paul_p: interesting, I am using thunderbird at home
12:33 * magnuse should be using it, not relying on gmail
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12:57 kf @wunder Konstanz
12:57 huginn kf: The current temperature in Taegerwilen, Taegerwilen, Germany is 12.4°C (2:50 PM CEST on October 08, 2012). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 83%. Dew Point: 10.0°C. Pressure: 30.09 in 1019 hPa (Steady).
12:57 * kf is freezing
12:58 mtompset @wunder MNL
12:58 huginn mtompset: The current temperature in Ninoy Aquino Inter-National Airport, Philippines is 27.0°C (8:00 PM PHT on October 08, 2012). Conditions: Haze. Humidity: 77%. Dew Point: 24.0°C. Pressure: 29.78 in 1008 hPa (Rising).
12:59 mtompset If there was a way to average those temperatures, that would be good.
13:06 magnuse @wunder boo
13:06 huginn magnuse: The current temperature in Bodo, Norway is 9.0°C (2:50 PM CEST on October 08, 2012). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 62%. Dew Point: 2.0°C. Pressure: 29.50 in 999 hPa (Steady).
13:28 jcamins magnuse: kf: take a look at koha-tmpl/opac-tmpl/prog/en/m​odules/text/ to see what I was talking about.
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13:32 smeagol Hi all. Please, what cron has to run to apply fines to a record once has run? thanks
13:33 libsysguy does apply the fines to the records
13:34 libsysguy do you have your sysprefs set to charge fines
13:41 kf smeagol: check your setting for the finesmode system preference
13:41 kf ah sorry libsysguy - scrolling broken
13:44 libsysguy heh its cool kf
13:45 libsysguy how you doing this morning?
13:45 kf getting buried in tickets
13:45 kf but it's ok
13:45 libsysguy heh I know the feeling
13:48 smeagol yes, it's set to calculate and charge when runs
13:48 libsysguy smeagol I would suggest making sure the circ rules have the correct fines associated with them
13:49 kf smeagol: also holidays can play into the fines
13:53 smeagol Thanks, i figured it out. Staff patron type isn't assessed fines..thanks again!
13:53 libsysguy np
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13:56 kf hm
13:56 kf question
13:56 wahanui i think question is "What is the meaning of life, the universe and everything?"
13:57 kf can I make books that have holds on them but are not yet waiting (still on shelf) not for loan for other borrowers?
13:57 kf guess not? or maybe there is a message, I should test that
13:57 jcamins kf: khall did a patch to make that optional.
13:57 kf ah
13:57 kf I guess that's for a newer version
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13:58 jcamins I think it gives you a warning, though.
13:58 kf hm
14:00 magnuse koha doesn't really know if that book is on the regular shelf or on the shelf waiting to be picked up, does it?
14:00 smeagol more questioin if i can...Can I change patron type from staff and run again? I've done that, but there must be a flag or something that prevents re-calculation of fines. Is there a way to reset?
14:01 magnuse kf: so if there is a hold and you try to issue to someone who does not have that hold, there should be a warning. but i have no iea if there actually is
14:01 jcamins magnuse: I think there's a warning that you're trying to check a book out to someone other than the person it is waiting for. But I'm not sure.
14:01 kf testing right nw - I will let you all know :)
14:02 kf oh
14:02 kf no warning
14:02 jcamins Okay, maybe khall's patch (I'm pretty sure there was one) was to add the warning.
14:02 kf maybe
14:03 kf hm maybe it was because I picked an item that is not for loan?
14:03 kf I didn#t get my hold slip on return!
14:03 kf this is werid
14:04 khall I wrote a patch that will revert waiting holds if a waiting item is checked out to another borrower. That's the only one I can think of write now.
14:04 jcamins khall: that's the one I was thinking of.
14:04 jcamins khall: it didn't involve any warning?
14:04 kf ok... any idea why returning an item with a hold would not issue a slip?
14:05 khall[…]w_bug.cgi?id=8559
14:05 huginn Bug 8559: normal, P3, ---, koha-bugs, Signed Off , conflicting item statuses
14:05 khall kf: do you mean returning the item is not triggering the hold?
14:05 magnuse Bug 3792
14:05 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3792 normal, P3, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Checking out on-hold item to someone else replaces item-level hold with next available
14:06 kf ah good
14:06 kf it did trigger for an item that is actually allowed to put on hold
14:06 drojf mtompset: you should probably not take for granted that people on the main mailing list know what bug numbers mean and where to find info about them :)
14:07 mtompset Sorry, drojf. You are right. Well, if they ask, I'll explain. :)
14:09 mtompset Glad thing I didn't say how to use the rebuild_zebra_sliced. I just tried it and messed up my indexes on my test system.
14:09 drojf ouch
14:10 mtompset I'm sticking with the 6566 script... I like it, and it works. :)
14:11 kf I think the problem was something with superlibraian / not allowed to be on hold / older version
14:11 kf it gives a warning
14:11 kf when you don't do something you are not supposed to
14:17 kf bbl :)
14:17 kf left #koha
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14:31 libsysguy who is BigRig?
14:32 jcamins Someone with a problematic connection.
14:42 logbot joined #koha
14:42 Topic for #koha is now Welcome to #koha this channel is for discussion of the Koha project and software The next general meeting is 10 October 2012 10 UTC
14:42 libsysguy but now im working out of a complicated merge of my work, DBIx work, and master
14:42 libsysguy it'd be nice if it were just my work and master :p
14:45 mtompset So the rabbit hole is the lag between now and 3.12?
14:45 tcohen joined #koha
14:45 tcohen hi paul_p
14:45 mtompset Greetings, tcohen. :)
14:46 tcohen hi mtompset
14:46 libsysguy yup
14:46 tcohen currently @home as this day is  aholiday
14:46 mtompset It is in Canada too: Thanksgiving. :)
14:46 libsysguy what holiday is it there
14:49 tcohen respect to cultural diversity :-D
14:49 libsysguy that is a long name for a holiday :p
14:50 libsysguy im off for columbus day!
14:50 tcohen we changed the america's discovery
14:50 libsysguy but still working
14:51 tcohen into that, because as many (most of them) natives where killed upon discovery...
14:51 tcohen it is considered a genocide, and even when it is an important date for our develpment
14:51 libsysguy :'(
14:51 tcohen as countries....
14:52 tcohen anyway... working on holidays :-D
14:52 tcohen about to revisit bug 8800
14:52 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=8800 major, P5 - low, ---, tomascohen, Failed QA , SpecifyDueDate && useDaysMode=Datedue wrong behaviour
14:53 libsysguy paul_p is a toughie :p
14:53 libsysguy jk much love paul_p
14:53 tcohen yes!
14:53 tcohen I agree with his comments
14:53 libsysguy i generally do too, unless it involves tabs
14:54 libsysguy then I just want to stab my editor :p
14:54 tcohen yeah, i need to fix my vim
14:54 tcohen config
14:54 mtompset So stop using emacs? ;)
14:55 * libsysguy glares at mtompset
14:55 libsysguy you don't just stop using emacs
14:55 jcamins libsysguy: he has a point.
14:55 libsysguy thats like saying you're going to stop your crack habit
14:55 * mtompset laughs.
14:56 libsysguy it just feels so good to use emacs you don't mind going back on every patch and typing M-x untabify
14:56 jcamins libsysguy: I would compare fixing tabs in Emacs to getting two piccolos to play in tune with each other.
14:56 mtompset I can never figure out which key in the meta key!
14:56 mtompset :P
14:57 libsysguy lol
14:57 mtompset Where's the ctrl-meta-meta-shift-alt what next?!
14:58 jcamins (for those who don't know the solution to the two-piccolo problem, it's "shoot one of them")
14:58 libsysguy you have to have octopus fingers
14:58 libsysguy and meta is always escape :p
14:59 libsysguy escape is so meta
15:00 jcamins libsysguy: unless you remap it to `qa1234vg5634.
15:01 libsysguy dood….not cool
15:01 libsysguy lesson here, don't remap meta
15:01 libsysguy unless you're remapping meta to meta in which case it really is meta
15:01 libsysguy just let that one sink in :p
15:02 * jcamins thinks if you're going to say something like that, you have to preface it with this song:
15:04 mtompset But then how do you hit esc meta?
15:04 libsysguy esc esc esc esc
15:04 mtompset I'm positive when I was trying to learn emacs I needed to press that for something.
15:04 jcamins mtompset: you hit escape on both keyboards.
15:04 jcamins When you have a really complicated command, you use your third keyboard as well.
15:04 libsysguy esc x 3 quits the current operation in the mini buffer
15:05 jcamins The Emacs-Perl keyboard: nothing but punctuation and modifier keys.
15:05 libsysguy the perl keyboard has keys for map and grep as well
15:05 mtompset Command Mode and Edit Mode is so much simpler.
15:05 libsysguy also I feel like I need to be stoned to watch that video jcamins
15:06 mtompset Yes, that video is a tad strange.
15:06 libsysguy
15:06 jcamins mtompset: more than "remap meta to meta, which is meta"?
15:06 libsysguy mtompset: ^^
15:07 jcamins mtompset: also, you have the foot pedals for spare metas and escapes.
15:07 libsysguy heh
15:07 * mtompset laughs, "Definitely, jcamins."
15:08 libsysguy and now i am stuck on youtube movie clips
15:08 libsysguy shoot
15:08 * mtompset laughs.
15:13 jcamins libsysguy: you're welcome.
15:13 jcamins It's your day off!
15:13 libsysguy heh yeah but im working today so I can have friday off to go sign for our house :p
15:14 reiveune bye
15:14 reiveune left #koha
15:17 libsysguy did we ever decide on a naming scheme for Koha releases?
15:17 jcamins Cookies?
15:17 wahanui Cookies are delicious delicacies
15:17 libsysguy was that it
15:17 libsysguy i have yet to see an official name
15:17 libsysguy is the first one chocolate chip?
15:18 jcamins No, we never agreed.
15:18 libsysguy damn
15:19 * jcamins thinks "3.10 Curried-coconut Oatmeal Chocolate Chip Koha" sounds good.
15:20 mtompset Yes but there are less cookies in the world than languages.
15:20 libsysguy that just makes me think about chocolate chip curry
15:20 libsysguy which sounds gross :p
15:20 mtompset Why not language group names?
15:20 libsysguy like swahili
15:20 jcamins mtompset: is that a challenge?
15:20 jcamins I think that was a challenge.
15:20 mtompset With ~6800 in the world, we won't run out. ;)
15:20 * jcamins shall invent 10k types of cookies.
15:21 libsysguy in other news jcamins apartment burns down due to cookie fire
15:21 jcamins Five every day for the next 5.5 years.
15:21 libsysguy word is he was trying to create a new kind of cooking
15:21 libsysguy cookie*
15:22 * mtompset laughs
15:22 mtompset "Sorry, but a naming convention is generally too limiting.
15:22 jcamins mtompset: how many versions of Koha do you expect there to be in the next 5.5 years?
15:22 jcamins I foresee 11.
15:22 jcamins At most.
15:22 mtompset I'm thinking LONGER term than that. ;)
15:23 jcamins So, probably fewer thanks to schedule slippage.
15:23 jcamins mtompset: but we can always invent more cookies!
15:23 libsysguy cait should be in charge of cookie naming
15:23 mtompset Two new cookie types per year?
15:23 jcamins mtompset: sure, why not? I'd do ten a day, if I had an army of dishwashers. :P
15:25 mtompset You're as attached to a cookie naming convention as libsysguy is addicted to emacs. ;)
15:25 jcamins mtompset: it just makes sense.
15:26 jcamins We want something that makes everyone instinctively want Koha.
15:26 libsysguy and there is only one thing more primal than cookies
15:26 jcamins Text editors?
15:26 libsysguy precisely
15:26 * jcamins thinks not.
15:27 libsysguy we could name it after dead library conventions
15:27 libsysguy like Koha "Card Catalog"
15:27 drojf koha marc. hopefully soon
15:27 libsysguy heh
15:27 * libsysguy wasn't going there
15:28 mtompset koha ed?
15:28 drojf +1 for cookies. also, let's really do that before koha 4
15:28 libsysguy you're going to have to pry marc out of LC's cold dead fingers
15:28 mtompset koha edlin?
15:28 drojf koha version naming cookie name and recipe mamager
15:28 drojf manager even
15:31 mtompset before koha 4?
15:31 mtompset It would be nice to start then.
15:31 drojf mtompset: how do you mean language groups? like koha indo-european? that does not sound too attractive.
15:31 drojf yes, i mean have it fixed before we have a 4
15:31 drojf so that we can start then ;)
15:31 gaetan_B bye !
15:31 mtompset no.... like koha tuwali ifugao
15:31 mtompset no.... like koha tagalog
15:32 mtompset koha canadian english
15:32 asaurat left #koha
15:32 drojf if you provide a translation for each… :P
15:32 drojf i think the language of cookies is nicely international
15:33 mtompset Hmmm... chocolate chip in each language.
15:33 jcamins mtompset: Koha <picture of chocolate chip cookies>
15:33 mtompset koha <chocolate chip in maori, english, french, etc.>
15:34 mtompset Ah, so you would stylize the logo based on the cookie type? ;)
15:34 drojf jcamins: that's hard to pronounce
15:36 jcamins drojf: we'd provide translations for when talking.
15:36 drojf koha "Preheat oven to 350 degrees F (175 degrees C). Cream together the butter, white sugar, and brown sugar until smooth. Beat in the eggs one at a time, then stir in the vanilla. Dissolve baking soda in hot water. Add to batter along with salt. Stir in flour, chocolate chips, and nuts. Drop by large spoonfuls onto ungreased pans. Bake for about 10 minutes in the preheated oven, or until edges are nicely browned."
15:37 jcamins Yes!
15:37 jcamins Solve once and for all my problem of losing recipes.
15:37 drojf :)
15:37 jcamins Just look in the Koha about page, and there they are.
15:38 drojf we could also combine workshops and conferences with baking classes. "i will be speaking about the new koha version, please bring brutter, some eggs…"
15:38 mtompset Sounds like you are trying hijack Koha for your evil cooking desires. :P
15:39 drojf mtompset: you should try it sometime
15:39 jcamins Brilliant!
15:39 jcamins drojf++
15:39 mtompset I should try hijacking Koha for my evil cooking desires?!
15:39 drojf you should try cooking
15:40 drojf and baking too
15:40 vfernandes joined #koha
15:40 mtompset I'm not good at it... though I can prepare a decent turkey.
15:40 mtompset Going to do that tomorrow, since I was out of province for work today.
15:40 vfernandes hi... there is any way to merge two auhtorithies in the staff interface?
15:41 jcamins vfernandes: no.
15:41 jcamins There should be, but so far as I could find, there isn't.
15:41 vfernandes ok thanks jcamins
16:04 cait joined #koha
16:08 mtompset Well, I should sleep.
16:08 mtompset Good night.
16:18 laurence left #koha
16:23 * paul_p pushed only a few patches today, and QAed/failed QA many, after a long and intensive checking...
16:24 BigRig joined #koha
16:27 jcamins paul_p: isn't that the point of our QA process? :)
16:33 libsysguy nah the point of qa is question and answer not quality asurance :p
16:47 mveron joined #koha
16:48 mveron Hi #koha
16:49 * mveron does not like IE - but fixed Bug 8885 anyway, because it affected Opac user experience...
16:49 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=8885 major, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Needs Signoff , OPAC with ccsr theme in IE9
16:51 cait mveron++ :) ie++
16:51 cait eek
16:51 cait ie--
16:51 cait ie--
16:51 cait making up for the typo
16:52 mveron :-)
16:52 mveron ...but to be fair: IE did just it was told to do :-)
16:54 huginn New commit(s) kohagit: Normalize records imported from Z39.50 servers. <[…]4b2d0f9e10f58ca43> / Bug 8829: Fix authority importing <[…]3b67369a056569ba6> / Bug 8680 Z39.50 ISBN Search is problematic and there is a missing ISSN field. <
16:54 libsysguy joined #koha
16:58 jenkins_koha Starting build #871 for job Koha_master (previous build: SUCCESS)
17:18 phasefx joined #koha
17:22 zemkat joined #koha
17:23 zemkat joined #koha
17:24 brylie joined #koha
18:07 jcamins_away ms_access--
18:07 jcamins_away ms_access--
18:07 jcamins_away ms_access--
18:07 jcamins_away @karma ms_access
18:07 huginn jcamins_away: Karma for "ms_access" has been increased 0 times and decreased 3 times for a total karma of -3.
18:07 jcamins_away ms_access--
18:07 jcamins_away @karma ms_access
18:07 huginn jcamins_away: Karma for "ms_access" has been increased 0 times and decreased 4 times for a total karma of -4.
18:08 jcamins_away Better.
18:08 cait what did it do?
18:08 jcamins_away cait: one of my clients has a catalog in MS Access.
18:08 cait i see
18:08 jcamins_away It turns out that it randomly deletes data when you try to print.
18:08 jenkins_koha Project Koha_master build #871: SUCCESS in 1 hr 10 min: http://jenkins.koha-community.[…]/Koha_master/871/
18:08 jenkins_koha * Amit Gupta: Bug 5409 - Fix call number not shown on opac search result page
18:08 jenkins_koha * meenakshi.r: Bug 5409 - Call number is not show on Opac search result page.
18:08 jenkins_koha * meenakshi.r: Bug 5409 - Call number is not show on Opac search result page.
18:08 jenkins_koha * Paul Poulain: Bug 5409 follow-up DBRev number
18:08 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=5409 normal, P5 - low, ---, meenakshi.r, Pushed to Master , Call number is not show on Opac search result page.
18:08 jenkins_koha * oleonard: Bug 6037 [Follow-up] Invalid markup, missing breadcrumbs on Keyword to MARC Mapping page
18:08 jenkins_koha * jbalway: Bug 8680 Z39.50 ISBN Search is problematic and there is a missing ISSN field.
18:08 jenkins_koha * jcamins: Bug 8829: Fix authority importing
18:08 jenkins_koha * frederick.capovilla: Normalize records imported from Z39.50 servers.
18:08 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6037 normal, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Pushed to Master , Invalid markup, missing breadcrumbs on Keyword to MARC Mapping page
18:09 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=8680 normal, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, Pushed to Master , Z39.50 searches for ISBN/ISSN problematic in the Acquistions Module
18:09 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=8829 critical, P1 - high, ---, gmcharlt, Pushed to Master , can't import authorities
18:15 rangi Morning
18:15 wahanui Morning is, like, a state of mind. or whenever the cat wants breakfast
18:16 cait morning rangi
18:21 rangi Well this is the least frozen feature freeze in the history of features freezes
18:23 * cait felt pretty frozen all day today
18:23 cait @wunder Konstanz
18:23 huginn cait: The current temperature in Konstanz, Germany is 11.0°C (8:00 PM CEST on October 08, 2012). Conditions: Light Rain. Humidity: 94%. Dew Point: 10.0°C. Pressure: 30.04 in 1017 hPa (Falling).
18:23 liw a spate of slush?
18:26 rangi Seems that way,  tis a shame imho
18:30 rangi Ah well
18:39 drojf joined #koha
18:41 rangi My stop bbiab
18:49 rangi back
18:50 * liw waves to Catalyst House
18:50 * cait waves to
18:50 cait :)
18:54 libsysguy joined #koha
19:05 rangi any qa people about?
19:05 rangi bug 3652 could do with some qa
19:05 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3652 critical, P1 - high, ---, oleonard, Signed Off , XSS vulnerabilities
19:13 libsysguy sorry rangi, not officially QA yet :p
19:13 rangi maybe mtj will see it :)
19:13 libsysguy may not be after signing off on 8800
19:13 libsysguy lol
19:14 libsysguy I never checked the code, just to see if it worked
19:14 libsysguy and did
19:14 libsysguy rangi do you have any exp with dbix::class?
19:14 libsysguy or anybody around here really?
19:15 rangi[…]ixclass-and-koha/
19:15 rangi stuff from 3 years ago
19:15 libsysguy heh I wonder if it matches my patch from now
19:15 libsysguy yup pretty much
19:16 libsysguy I was hoping to get some info on the update_or_create operation
19:16 cait bug 880
19:16 huginn Bug[…]ow_bug.cgi?id=880 major, P2, ---, chris, RESOLVED INVALID, Bugs on Cataloguing and Marc
19:16 cait bug 8800
19:16 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=8800 major, P5 - low, ---, tomascohen, Failed QA , SpecifyDueDate && useDaysMode=Datedue wrong behaviour
19:16 libsysguy why didn't you submit that rangi?
19:18 rangi was only a proof of concept, and nowhere near finished
19:19 libsysguy i guess mine isn't finished either but it lays out the idea in c4::Context
19:19 libsysguy so hopefully it will get adopted slowly :p
19:20 rangi yep
19:29 * drojf is not going to wear an oxygen ad on his team koha jersey :P
19:29 rangi heh
19:30 cait drojf: huh? :)
19:31 cait ok, i am missing part of the story :)
19:32 drojf cait: mailing list ;)
19:32 cait yep found it
19:32 cait bit slow tonight :)
19:33 libsysguy rangi
19:34 rangi :)
19:35 libsysguy my poor laptop speakers
19:35 rangi[…]v/im-in-yr-corner
19:36 libsysguy how do you always find the good stuff on sound cloud
19:36 rangi its a knack
19:36 drojf while i was walking through the city minding my own business, i was wondering how cool it would be if koha had the option to encrypt the emails it sends to the patrons if they have a public key available
19:37 drojf and if more than 5 people would ever use it
19:37 rangi oh, that would be totally doable drojf
19:37 rangi and id use it
19:37 rangi libsysguy: anything by bobby c sound is good
19:37 libsysguy so would all the academic libraries in the koha world
19:38 libsysguy anddd now im on the boots and cats
19:38 cait maybe not in all countries... even if they should
19:38 rangi who can go past laser cat funk
19:38 drojf never looked at koha's mail stuff, but i assume having some cmmand line gnupg magic before putting the email in the queue would do it?
19:38 rangi yup
19:39 libsysguy laser cats!!!
19:39 libsysguy my #1 search in koha
19:39 libsysguy across all libraries
19:39 rangi  <-- did i show you this one already?
19:40 libsysguy I don't think so
19:40 libsysguy I think I sould have remembered Nero
19:40 rangi the drop is pretty nice
19:40 libsysguy im waiting
19:40 libsysguy ...
19:40 cait hm not sure, but maybe you would need to do somthing for the displays generated from the table
19:41 cait if you do it before entering there and not when sending out?
19:41 libsysguy you called it
19:41 libsysguy they have a knack for drops
19:41 rangi yup
19:41 rangi and the last one for today
19:42 rangi is one from charlie (aka ras stone) who is on the QA team here at catalyst
19:42 rangi[…]ub-terminator-ras
19:42 libsysguy I already like it
19:42 rangi he freestyled this, in one take
19:43 libsysguy it has a tech reggae feel
19:43 rangi yup
19:43 libsysguy that is crazy
19:43 libsysguy we just run at ByWater
19:44 libsysguy we definitely don't have a dub movement
19:44 libsysguy :p
19:44 rangi hehe
19:45 rangi mveron++
19:45 rangi i should find time to start my koha radio station again, it lasted about 3 weeks last time
19:45 libsysguy I would listen
19:45 rangi if spotify didnt force me to use facebook for login
19:46 rangi id do playlists there
19:46 libsysguy and if mveron was the guy who did that track I demand he change is nick to dub_terminator :p
19:46 rangi heh no
19:49 cait lol
19:49 cait good night all :)
19:49 libsysguy night cait
20:00 drojf oh, missed cait because of a battle with a pomegranate
20:01 rangi hmmm
20:01 drojf not 100%, but i think its all her blood ;)
20:01 drojf 100% sure
20:03 rangi check the source
20:03 rangi $(this).attr('href', $(this).attr('href') + '&query_desc=1,wrdl:%20%3Cbl​ink%3Ewhoops%3C/blink%3E');
20:03 rangi then
20:04 rangi $("#holdDetails").hide();
20:04 rangi var query_desc = "1,wrdl: <blink>whoops</blink>";
20:04 khall joined #koha
20:04 rangi i think we need to be sanitising the user input in the js too
20:04 jcamins_away Ooh, good catch.
20:06 rangi someone want to get a security credit adding a fix for that to bug 3652 will win you much respect
20:06 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3652 critical, P1 - high, ---, oleonard, Signed Off , XSS vulnerabilities
20:06 libsysguy hey I have a question about bug 7818
20:06 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7818 critical, P1 - high, ---, robin, Pushed to Stable , support DOM mode for Zebra indexing of bibliographic records
20:07 libsysguy how does one have a legacy setting
20:07 libsysguy like if it were set to dom rather than grs1
20:08 jcamins_away libsysguy: grs1 is deprecated.
20:08 jcamins_away If you mean, "how do I set it to GRS-1," you set it in koha-conf.xml.
20:08 libsysguy I'm actually wondering if this would hose the -x option on older installs
20:09 jcamins_away No.
20:09 libsysguy second question
20:09 wahanui well, second question is "What is the exact error message?"
20:09 libsysguy for a dev install on updates to koha-conf.xml
20:09 libsysguy would I have to manually copy that over?
20:09 jcamins_away They have to be done manually or by rerunning the installer.
20:09 libsysguy i see
20:10 libsysguy well ballocks
20:11 jcamins_away See my oft-repeated instruction to rerun the installer.
20:11 jcamins_away Jeez. Our git repo is absurd.
20:11 libsysguy heh you just now saw that
20:11 jcamins_away I'm so glad I haven't tried to clone it from the remote in years.
20:12 rangi what's absurd about it?
20:12 jcamins_away It's nearing 1GB.
20:12 rangi i cloned it yesterday
20:12 rangi hmm not for me
20:12 jcamins_away ?
20:12 jcamins_away How can it be different sizes for different people.
20:12 rangi i have no idea but its not near 1gb for me
20:12 jcamins_away Okay, I guess I exaggerated. At 50% it had received 350MB.
20:13 jcamins_away So, 700MB. Which feels close to 1GB to me.
20:13 rangi its 13 years of commit history
20:13 rangi if you want less, just use --max-depth
20:13 jcamins_away Yeah, but it's doubled in size since I cloned two years ago.
20:14 * jcamins_away doesn't care so much... this is why he has a server with a fast connection.
20:14 libsysguy progress jcamins
20:14 libsysguy or wordy commit messages
20:14 libsysguy :p
20:15 rangi moving the po files out would slow it's growth
20:15 rangi but its mostly just the codebase is continually growing
20:16 rangi ping druthb about the po stuff, they could easily live in their own repo
20:16 * jcamins_away will do so.
20:16 rangi in fact, pootle can commit directly to git
20:17 drojf damn contributors writing code all day :P
20:17 rangi so it would be good to have them in a repo pootle could commit directly too
20:17 libsysguy ^^
20:17 jcamins_away Ooh.
20:17 * jcamins_away will confer with druthb.
20:17 rangi then the release script just needs to pull them into the tarball and packages
20:17 rangi or even better
20:18 rangi they have their own packages
20:18 libsysguy lang packs
20:18 rangi yep
20:18 libsysguy i like it
20:18 rangi magnuse and eythian have been working on it already
20:18 drojf cool. and less cryptic to set up
20:18 libsysguy have they been working on a plugin module too?
20:18 libsysguy I would like to work on something like that
20:19 libsysguy don't need serials, don't install it
20:19 rangi nope, but jcamins has written up a good skeletal idea on how to do that on the plugins bug
20:19 libsysguy is afraid of jcamins ideas
20:19 libsysguy the plugins bug would be a huge undertaking I think
20:20 rangi to do it properly yes
20:20 libsysguy and shaping the old code into plugins
20:20 rangi thats a whole seperate project
20:21 rangi with limited appeal for me ...
20:21 libsysguy heh
20:21 libsysguy uh oh
20:21 rangi disk is cheap, having a syspref so you dont see serials seems adequate
20:21 rangi but having plugins for new/experimental stuff
20:21 libsysguy well perhaps we could work it like drupal.  You have drupal core that includes some modules
20:21 rangi that can then move into core when its proved itself i like
20:21 libsysguy and you can still toggle them
20:21 rangi I HATE DRUPAL
20:22 rangi with a passion
20:22 * libsysguy ducks
20:22 rangi we use it a lot here
20:22 libsysguy why do you hate it?
20:22 rangi core changes, everythign breaks
20:22 libsysguy well there is that
20:22 rangi its aspect related design
20:22 rangi plugins affect other plugins
20:22 rangi plugins can affect core
20:22 rangi its a mess
20:22 libsysguy core needs help right now
20:23 libsysguy im hoping they get it worked out in 8
20:23 rangi and yes, no one works on core
20:23 rangi they are all off in their silo
20:23 libsysguy i want integrated views and panels
20:23 rangi working on their plugins
20:23 libsysguy yup
20:23 rangi lets never go there
20:23 rangi its a fragmented mess
20:23 libsysguy reminds me of the lion king
20:23 rangi that will collapse under its own weight sooner or later
20:24 libsysguy whats that dark place over there?  That's Drupal Simba, you must never go there...
20:24 rangi :)
20:24 libsysguy I hope it doesn't….I use it a lot :p
20:24 rangi so do we
20:24 libsysguy its like a cash machine
20:24 rangi we have a team of i think about 25 drupal developers
20:24 rangi but its most definitely not a dev model id like to ever emulate
20:25 libsysguy plugins would be nice for companies so that they don't have to get every small feature pushed to get it to people
20:25 libsysguy they can just develop plugins and go
20:25 libsysguy and when it gets into core its depricated
20:25 rangi yep, and if the features are good they can submit them to core
20:26 rangi its that bit ... that bit never happens with drupal
20:26 rangi and you end up with 827937813 modules that do the same thing
20:26 rangi in slightly different ways
20:26 libsysguy that is true
20:26 libsysguy everybody has their own module with their own hooks
20:26 rangi so yeah, new feature, try it as a plugin .. if people like it, integrate it .. im all for that
20:27 * libsysguy hates drupal hooks
20:27 libsysguy wtf is that about
20:29 rangi the trouble with plugins of course, is security
20:29 rangi but that's soluble
20:30 drojf "but our plugin works for our clients already, we don't want to spend time and money on integrating it" …
20:30 rangi that's the other issue
20:30 rangi bust the api is the answer :)
20:30 * rangi gets all militant
20:30 drojf lol
20:30 rangi :)
20:33 rangi but no there are incentives to that
20:33 rangi and the smart companies will do the right thing
20:34 drojf a closed fork? :P
20:35 rangi i said smart :)
20:35 drojf :)
20:35 rangi speaking of that, i wonder where the TM is at
20:35 rangi might have to ping the lawyers
20:36 drojf haven't heard of that in a while
20:36 drojf would be cool to know
20:36 drojf i got ignored by the publisher that holds the german domain and does not do anything obvious with it. i guess they do not even read the webmaster emails
20:37 rangi problem is while its with the lawyers cant really talk about it
20:37 tcohen joined #koha
20:37 drojf yep. tell tehm to hurry, we wanna know ;)
20:38 drojf them
20:38 rangi :)
20:40 drojf meh. fire up a vm, forget what i wanted to do before it has booted
20:46 rangi heh
20:46 rangi go get a coffee
20:46 rangi thats what i do
20:46 rangi i always remember halfway to the coffee machine
20:47 drojf :)
20:47 drojf i should rather go to bed i guess. i will remember there and get up again …
20:47 rangi :)
20:48 rangi yeah that to, or a shower
20:49 drojf the good thing is, there is always something else that i forgot about earlier that i can do in that situation :)
20:54 * magnuse waves
20:54 rangi you're awake late magnuse
20:55 magnuse rangi: that nice little piece of drupal-bashing reminded me of something i wanted to pick your brain about...
20:55 magnuse got an opinon on perl web frameworks?
20:55 magnuse like catalyst, dancer, mojolicious etc?
20:55 rangi i like dancer
20:55 rangi i like catalyst too
20:55 magnuse yeah, just about to turn in...
20:55 magnuse ah, you would like catalyst, wouldn't you ;-)
20:55 rangi dancer is easy, and has nice conventions
20:56 rangi its great for smallish, or prototypes, i think for something big i would use catalyst
20:56 * magnuse has read a book about catalyst, looked at mojolicious but not dancer
20:57 rangi mojolicious made my head hurt
20:57 rangi dashboard is dancer
20:57 magnuse the koha dashboard?
20:57 wahanui well, the koha dashboard is really great. Will it be linked in the list of Community ressources on  ? And on the Wiki?
20:57 rangi[…]oard/trees/master
20:57 rangi yep
20:58 rangi i whacked it up in a few hours
20:58 rangi dancer is good like that
20:58 magnuse cool!
21:00 magnuse any other perl frameworks worth considering?
21:01 * magnuse will hopefully be working on an ebook thingy, with a bit of SIP integration, an API etc soon
21:07 magnuse time to catch some sleep - i'll definitely check out dancer - thanks rangi
21:08 rangi cya later
21:28 tcohen joined #koha
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21:54 tcohen joined #koha
22:00 Lars_G joined #koha
22:00 Lars_G Hi all.
22:00 Lars_G Are there core devs in the channel?
22:01 rangi not many this time of the day, but some
22:01 rangi whats up?
22:01 wahanui well, up is the sky
22:02 rangi (koha doesn't really have the notion of core devs .. we have a release manager who has push access to the repo, and a qa team etc but the devs are all equal)
22:03 eythian hey, some of us are more equal than others, tyvm ;)
22:03 rangi heh
22:04 Lars_G Sorry I had to go to the kitchen, be back in a second
22:08 Lars_G I'm back
22:09 Lars_G Ok, here is the thing, I'm working on a small project (with a close by deadline) that will include a not too large Catalog and OPAC around a specific domain (Movies). I'm starting with a lighter version for the close deadline, and will expand, but I'm still debating about one fundamental design choice that will impact me in the future.
22:10 Lars_G It's not going to work with marc21 btw, though I will want to eventually be able to export via dublin core, and maybe even get Z39.50 to work.
22:11 Lars_G The fundamental decision I'm facing is for the item storage: single table (with semicolon separated data for {1..n} fields), RDBMS, or NoSQL (Document based DB)
22:12 Lars_G I'm watching the source on koha to try and get ideas, and it seems so far from what I see in the .sql schema Koha uses rdbms. I wonder if you've tried or pre-analyzed the approach, and what made you choose the current approach
22:12 Lars_G Btw, I also wanted to mention, last time I talked with their CIO, the largest Library in my country (Something similar to loc but in a smaller scale) was in the process of migrating mainframe aleph based systems into koha :)
22:14 rangi cool
22:14 eythian yeah, Koha uses tables for it's data. Things that are likely to be accessed frequently have their own columns, and then the MARC is stored alongside that.
22:14 Lars_G Right now I'm on the verge of completely discarding single table comma separated. Since data integrity seems more shoddy on that approach, at least initially.
22:14 rangi yep, we store the marc as marcxml
22:14 rangi we dont search it in the rdbms though, its searched via another indexing engine
22:14 eythian I think semicolon separated will bite you if you get records with that in it, then you'll have to escape and suddently processing and searching is hard.
22:14 Lars_G So, you generate marc and store it as marcxml in a text field. Hmm yes I feared as much
22:14 Lars_G eythian: Aye
22:15 rangi marc fields and subfields can repeat too
22:15 Lars_G I think I wont use that approach either (yours) first, I'm not using Marc :) and I do not have to deal with such a strict structure, right now, and I've used xml on db fields before, I have no time to implement a good external search engine. And xml on tables has bit me in the ass before.
22:15 Lars_G nod
22:16 eythian for something quickly, a document store type system might well work well.
22:16 Lars_G Right now my main balance of pro's is: rdbms: Faster to code right now. Document db: cleaner entries, easier to expand in the future, easier to fulltext index and search.
22:17 Lars_G hmm
22:17 eythian they also tend to have flexible schemas, so you won't have to worry about making all your schema decisions up front.
22:17 Lars_G yes that's the main attractive to it.
22:18 Lars_G Though any librarian might cringe at the idea of a free schema.
22:18 Lars_G Not that we've even sat to discuss possible lexical ruleset yet even.
22:19 eythian well, _you_ can enforce schema rules :)
22:19 Lars_G yes, and I will.
22:20 Lars_G Thanks for your feedback
22:20 eythian np
22:21 Lars_G Btw, does any of you professes to follow any social or political ideology?
22:22 eythian I'm sure some people do, but not generally.
22:22 rangi apart from thinking proprietary software is unethical?
22:22 Lars_G rangi: perfect
22:22 rangi yeah, there's not a general one
22:22 rangi only some of us believe that, as in any community there are differing opinions
22:22 Lars_G rangi: I'm working (my main work nothing that has to do with this project), with a person who helped introduce cepal into my country
22:23 Lars_G cepal is a close equivalent to marc, developed by a multinational development geared NGO of the same name.
22:23 eythian wahanui: standards
22:23 wahanui standards are what you use to hold up a fence.
22:24 Lars_G I spoke with her shortly one day, now that I'm getting into bibliotecology and liking it, and she told me she did so because MARC was a monopoly, an expensive privative monopoly.
22:24 eythian no wahanui, standards is <reply>the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!
22:24 eythian no wahanui, standards is <reply>the great thing about standards \is that there are so many to choose from!
22:24 wahanui i already had it that way, eythian.
22:24 eythian wahanui: standards
22:24 wahanui the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!
22:24 Lars_G I wondered, do you think there's anything intrinsical to marc (tehcnologically, license wise, etc) that lends to expensive or propietary solutions? or was it just a de-facto reality at the time?
22:25 Lars_G eythian: My dad's phrase is "The good thing about standards is that there's so many of them"
22:25 eythian no. MARC is technically appropriate for the era that it comes from.
22:26 Lars_G From what I've seen of the original Marc21 binary structure, it can make it tedious to work with, but I've labeled that as an artifact of the technology available at the era of development
22:26 Lars_G aha
22:26 eythian yeah, it's ideal for seeking on tape, and is quite compact.
22:26 eythian however it contains no semantics or anything like that.
22:27 Lars_G eythian: And beyound the ideological, into the technical, do you think Marc has still value today? or it has more value as a tool for working with legacy data, and we should focus more in more "modern" and dynamic standards like dublin core?
22:27 jcamins_away Bahahaha.
22:27 Lars_G eythian: That's a double edged sword....
22:27 jcamins_away MARC ideal for anything.
22:27 eythian wahanui: marc
22:27 wahanui The MARC specs live at - abandon hope all ye who enter here.
22:28 eythian wahanui: marc must die
22:28 wahanui eythian: sorry...
22:28 eythian wahanui: marc must die is <reply>
22:28 wahanui OK, eythian.
22:28 Lars_G eythian: Defining semantics on the std would be good for data integrity and exchangeability... but on the other hand defining semantics on the std could also cause compatibility troubles in scenarios different to the group that designed it, plus there are some semantics that are hard to enforce programatically even today
22:29 eythian if you don't define semantics, you get marc21, unimarc, nomarc and so on that are often not interchangable, so having it as a standard becomes pointless.
22:29 Lars_G So you don't gain THAT much with predefined semantics
22:29 rangi the reason people use MARC still, is that there are millions perhaps billions of items catalogued in it, that's the only reason i can see for using it, copy cataloguing and that is a hard thing to move away from
22:29 Lars_G rangi: aye
22:30 Lars_G eythian: I think a better solution... brb
22:30 eythian RDA?
22:30 wahanui i heard RDA was a room in a twisty maze of standards
22:30 Lars_G A better solution is to define protocol rules, like dublin core, and then define semantics by law, either by country, or by union/area
22:32 eythian then you have MARC with a slightly nicer representation, but no compatibility.
22:33 Lars_G Then what? you can't make a "catch-all" semantically defined std, otherwise you get something like Microsoft's XML office format, but twice the size.
22:33 Lars_G you'd need a truck of paper to document the format, you end up with H.323 all over again
22:34 eythian I dunno, I haven't tried to develop something better :)
22:34 Lars_G The trouble is, we're dealing with human readable data here. We can't reduce it to a small set of studied cases.
22:35 Lars_G On one hand the diversity and nuances are overwhelming, on the other hand, it's evolving, but as archivists, we need to store both the older and the newer concepts in the same place
22:35 Lars_G Anyhow, I have to go glue a screen before one of my cats kills itself or my spouse kills me. bbl
22:35 Lars_G and thanks again
22:35 eythian later :)
22:35 rangi cya later
22:49 dcook joined #koha
22:50 dcook Morning, #koha
22:50 rangi hiya dcook
22:51 dcook hey rangi
22:51 dcook How're things?
22:51 rangi fighting with self check machines, but other than that fine
22:54 dcook Sounds exciting. Are they self check-outs or are the machines rising up in NZ?
22:54 rangi self check out
22:54 rangi im fairly sure they are possessed
22:54 dcook I'd be cranky if I were a self check out too
22:57 dcook I wish you luck :)
22:59 rangi thanks
22:59 dcook Quick question about asking questions
23:00 rangi heh yes?
23:00 dcook I'm trying to figure out why basket.js has a reference to "parent" in a couple of functions. Typically, I would ask that here in the IRC channel, but is that the kind of thing that would be better suited to the listserv?
23:00 rangi depends on who is here in the channel
23:00 dcook (I guess I hid the actual question in there anyway :P)
23:01 rangi and if you think its something others would like to know the answer too
23:01 rangi probably koha-devel for that
23:01 rangi you are more likely to catch someone who knows
23:02 dcook Very reasonable answer, as always. Thanks :)
23:45 papa joined #koha

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