IRC log for #koha, 2009-09-11

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:06 gmcharlt Jo: you get double points if you use Morse code for the smoke signals
00:07 nengard boys!!!
00:07 * nengard rolls eyes
00:07 Jo left #koha
00:16 martinmorris joined #koha
00:16 martinmorris good evening, i have a question i'm curious about
00:17 pianohacker martinmorris: shoot
00:17 martinmorris when adding a significant number of authorities (10000 from a MARCXML file in my case) i notice the number of rebuild_zebra -b -a -z processes slowly creeping up to about 25 or so
00:18 martinmorris as well as various zebraidx -c /etc/koha/zebradb/zebra-authorities-dom.cfg etc. processes
00:18 martinmorris and really just wondering why more than one is needed
00:19 martinmorris any ideas?
00:20 pianohacker martinmorris: What's happening is that one starts, and five minutes later has not finished
00:20 martinmorris right...
00:20 pianohacker Then another scheduled reindexed starts
00:20 chris_n2 Morse Code++
00:20 pianohacker There's no locking
00:20 chris_n2 the original digital signal
00:20 pianohacker Though chris developed something
00:20 pianohacker ... - - - ...
00:20 martinmorris so do i need to kill these processes at some point?
00:20 chris_n2 hehe
00:21 pianohacker martinmorris: Most likely. If you're going to import a huge chunk of records/authorities, the easiest approach is often to temporarily disable the scheduled reindex
00:22 * chris_n2 wonders exactly what is sinking pianohacker 's boat ;-)
00:22 martinmorris and if i just kill them now will that cause problems with the reindexing or can i just issue a fresh rebuild_zebra command
00:22 pianohacker chris_n: hehe
00:23 pianohacker martinmorris: Zebra is fairly resilient. As long as they're not actively committing changes, you can kill the processes
00:23 martinmorris ok :) thanks :)
00:23 pianohacker If the worst happens, you can rebuild your whole index from scratch
00:23 martinmorris indeed, although that's slow and boring :)
00:24 martinmorris ok, i'm off to bed, thanks pianohacker
00:24 pianohacker no problem, good luck
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00:26 brendan catchya later koha -- time to ride bike home :)
00:26 pianohacker bye
00:33 chris
00:35 pianohacker Hmm. Where are the lockfile-* utilities from?
00:36 chris apt-get install lockfile-progs
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00:37 chris you could do it by hand of course, just touch a file, then rm it
00:37 chris lockfile-progs is just nicer :)
00:50 pianohacker Good night, #koha
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03:37 Amit joined #koha
03:37 Amit hi chris, brendan
03:37 Amit good morning #koha ;)
03:37 brendan hi Amit
03:37 Amit chris: Today India vs NZ
03:39 richard hiya amit
03:39 richard should be a good game
03:39 Amit heya richard
03:39 Amit yes sure
03:39 Amit richard your favorite
03:40 richard has to be nz - otherwise chris would be throwing stones on my roof :)
03:40 Amit haa
03:40 Amit ;)
03:40 richard actually, i think india will be clear favourites - even with one of the good batsmen out
03:41 Amit u mean to say gambir
03:41 richard nz can't seem to get beyond 150 runs in any form of the game
03:41 richard yeah
03:41 Amit hmm
03:42 Amit not sure cricket is game of uncertainty
03:42 richard very true
03:43 richard tho a nz batting collapse is a near certainty
03:47 Amit hmm ;)
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03:50 Amit hi joann
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05:37 Joann Hi Amit
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05:38 kf good morning #koha :)
05:38 brendan evening kf
05:42 Amit hi kf
05:43 kf hi Amit and brendan
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05:44 brendan_ is now known as brendan
06:34 nicomo joined #koha
06:40 Amit hi nicomo
06:41 nicomo morning Amit
06:41 nicomo morning all
06:42 kf good morning nicomo
06:42 nicomo @wunder konstanz, germany
06:42 munin` nicomo: The current temperature in Taegerwilen, Germany is 14.9�C (8:42 AM CEST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 84%. Dew Point: 12.0�C. Pressure: 30.30 in 1026.0 hPa (Steady).
06:43 nicomo @wunder lyon, france
06:43 munin` nicomo: The current temperature in Lyon Satolas, France is 16.0�C (8:30 AM CEST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 14.0�C. Pressure: 30.24 in 1024 hPa (Steady).
06:43 Amit @wunder Dehradun, india
06:43 munin` Amit: The current temperature in Dehradun, India is 24.0�C (11:30 AM IST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Light Drizzle. Humidity: 81%. Dew Point: 22.0�C. Pressure: 29.65 in 1004 hPa.
06:43 Amit @wunder Delhi, India
06:43 munin` Amit: Error: No such location could be found.
06:43 Amit @wunder New Delhi, India
06:43 munin` Amit: The current temperature in New Delhi, India is 25.0�C (12:00 PM IST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Rain. Humidity: 100%. Dew Point: 25.0�C. Pressure: 29.62 in 1003 hPa (Steady).
06:44 kf nicomo: just read your mail on the mailing list :)
06:44 Amit @wunder Bangalore
06:44 munin` Amit: The current temperature in Bangalore, India is 27.0�C (11:30 AM IST on September 11, 2009). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 44%. Dew Point: 17.0�C.
06:44 nicomo which one kf ?
06:46 kf nicomo: the answer to 'Koha support by BSZ'
06:46 nicomo ah yes
06:46 nicomo :-)
06:46 nicomo I'd love to visit Konstanz: don't you want to set something up? :-)
06:48 kf I give a talk on koha on BSZ Kolloquium this year, where we speak about our current projects
06:48 kf but this is in Sutttgart
06:50 nicomo kf: as an aside, do you have any contacts with the folks at Göttingen who work on VuFind?
06:51 kf I saw that there was a workshop, but dont know them personally
06:51 kf are they still working on it?
06:52 kf I know of another library that wanted to use VuFind, but they gave up on the project
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07:00 hdl_laptop hello world
07:02 Ropuch ;>
07:02 Ropuch Morning
07:03 kf good morning hdl_laptop and Ropuch
07:03 paul_p hi everybody
07:09 Amit hi hdl, ropuch, paul
07:11 paul_p mmm... new website for (& RSS feed not working anymore)
07:13 paul_p with announcing the "LibLime Enterprise Koha" and pointing to a non-released-source version.
07:14 paul_p (& that is supposed to be the "official" demos :'( )
07:14 Amit with new GetIt Acquisitions Integration
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07:29 kf Koha Communiy, Koha Express and Koha Enterpriye?? oh my...
07:31 nicomo kf: yes, and even though it's not explicitly stated I have a feeling the Kohe Enterprise version, with the liblime specific code, will be hosted-only
07:31 Ropuch Sounds littlle like 'Koha Home Premium" ;/
07:35 paul_p nicomo: it's specified (hosted only)
07:35 nicomo ah ok, hadn't seen it
07:36 paul_p (3rd line : "SaaS on LL cloud computing platform")
07:36 nicomo ah yes: "Distribution via Software as a Service on LibLime's cloud computing platform"
07:37 * kf wonders if they will still advertise with supporting open source
07:37 paul_p kf: yes, of course they do !
07:37 kf perhaps its time for a statement from the community now?
07:37 paul_p they even add "no vendor lock in"...
07:38 nicomo kf: ++
07:38 paul_p kf: yep. I add you in a mail i'm preparing now
07:38 kf thx paul
07:38 kf today will be a strange day - our mail from yesterday is just arriving in German blogosphere, Twitter and on the big mailing lists
07:38 kf and now this
07:40 nicomo kf: I feel the Koha community is big enough, and strong enough to overcome this
07:41 nicomo it definitely is unwelcomed, and bad timing for us all
07:41 nicomo but then, it clarifies things
07:41 nicomo and we need to move forward
07:41 nicomo we: collectively
07:47 kf and I think we need to talk about what is happening
07:47 kf perhaps its just my feeling that I dont want them to get away with this so easily :(
07:52 paul_p kf: reminder: they own and manage, so we must prepare for the worst...
07:52 nicomo let's wait for the US to wake up first
07:52 nicomo we'll see this afternoon
08:25 kf has chris seen that?
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09:44 bob joined #koha
09:46 bob hi, how does one restart the koha-zebra-daemon if they are getting the error
09:46 bob Restarting the Zebra Server
09:46 bob daemon: fatal: failed to find pid for koha-zebra-ctl.koha3: No such file or directory
09:48 bob is there a way to kill the process and start zebra up again?
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09:50 Amit_G chris: NZ 30/2 after 10 over
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10:15 hdl_laptop bob: yes
10:15 hdl_laptop killall zebrasrv
10:16 hdl_laptop and then remove pid
10:18 bob hmm, when i go lsof|grep zebrasrv
10:18 bob after the killall zebrasrv
10:18 bob i still see it
10:19 bob it just seems to change process number
10:22 * bob wonders if rebooting the whole server may fix things
10:37 gmcharlt bob: there may be a daeomon process respawning it
10:38 gmcharlt in which case you need to kill the parent as well
10:38 kf lunch time
10:41 bob hmm, ok ta i'll look for that
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11:18 chris wow, thats pretty naff
11:18 chris i agree with kf, nicomo and paul_p ... that is the last straw
11:19 paul_p hi chris
11:21 chris hi paul_p
11:24 chris the more annoying thing is, he will be busy spinning it in some way blaming the community and saying how we forced him to do this to his customers
11:27 chris ah well, this day has been coming for a while
11:36 chris i hope that his clients will be smart enough to look past his lies
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11:50 kf hi chris
11:50 kf I think an official statement from the community is needed so that people know both sides
11:50 Colin joined #koha
11:52 chris i think so too kf
11:54 kf I have a koha presentation to new colleagues in a few minutes, I will try to catch up with my mails after that
11:54 chris good luck
11:54 kf thx :)
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12:00 chris gonna be an interesting weekend thats for sure
12:01 jdavidb :)  Hi, chris!
12:01 chris heya jdavidb
12:04 |Lupin| joined #koha
12:04 |Lupin| hi
12:04 nicomo joined #koha
12:04 jdavidb Hi |Lupin|! :)
12:05 kf bbl
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12:05 |Lupin| hi jdavidb
12:06 |Lupin| I've a file listing Debian package to install to make Koha work on an unstable distro. Does this interest somebody ? Could/should this file be made available somehow ?
12:07 jdavidb Yes, please, Lupin!
12:07 jdavidb I'm loving my Lenny installs, but knowing what's up for the *next* release is a Good Thing.
12:09 |Lupin| jdavidb: shall I send the file to you ? just send me an e-mail addess in a private message if that's ok with you
12:11 chris ok time for me to go to sleep
12:13 gmcharlt |Lupin|: you could also do a patch start seeding install_misc/debian-unstable.packages
12:14 |Lupin| goodnight chris !
12:14 |Lupin| gmcharlt: sure, will submit it during the week-end
12:19 Amit_G galen: have a nice weekend
12:20 Amit_G nice weekend to all
12:20 gmcharlt Amit_G: you too
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12:41 * jdavidb remembers why he enjoys this community so darn much.  Collaborating with someone far, far away, on a point of mutual interest, is really nice.
12:43 jdavidb Hey, gmcharlt:  If |Lupin| gets his debian-squeeze.packages file in, I could probably get an INSTALL.debian-sqeeze file put together pretty quick.  Any chance of slipping 'em into 3.2?  ;-)
12:44 gmcharlt jdavidb: sure
12:44 jdavidb Yay!
12:50 paul_p jdavidb: ;-)
12:51 jdavidb paul_p:   :D   I was telling Sébastien a bit ago how much being in this group has expanded my worldview.  It's been really great, and it was *awesome* meeting you at KohaCon in April. :)
12:59 * chris_n reads the news with much disappointment
13:00 paul_p chris_n: which one is a disappointment ?
13:00 nahuel which news ?
13:01 chris_n paul_p: LL's decision to sever ties w/ the community
13:01 nahuel chris, But they are still using the website for their communication...
13:02 chris_n which imho makes it all the worse
13:02 paul_p chris_n: now, it's public. Which is much better than the previous situation, where things were hidden & not publicly said.
13:03 * jdavidb must have missed something; I saw Nicole's message this morning, and was unsurprised by it.  What are y'all seeing?
13:04 paul_p jdavidb: look at
13:04 chris_n jdavidb: no surprise, just a sense of finality in it and the distasteful duty which now falls to the community to address a situation which should not have ever been an issue
13:05 jdavidb Gosh, think they can make the community look any more lame on those pages?  Lordy.  Yeah, that doesn't look good.
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13:10 jdavidb chris_n:  speaking as me-as-me, and me-as-PTFS both, I feel like the vendors probably oughta do our best to kinda stand off a little bit from it.  Be there, be supportive, but no one of us, IMO, should make any moves that look like lead-taking.
13:11 * chris_n thinks having an incorporated foundation in place (would have) will head off this sort of thing in the future as much as is possible
13:12 * jdavidb inserts Sandard Disclaimer here.  My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my bosses, or any other person.
13:12 jdavidb I agree, chris_n.  Having some structure in place external to the vendors--in which we participate in some way, certainly--would head off many problems.
13:13 chris_n people will always discover ways to violate the spirit of the law if not the letter, but a foundation will have a greater authority
13:13 |Lupin| till soon, everybody
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13:13 jdavidb I'm not terribly fond of the Apache foundation process--it can be a little cumbersome at times.  But one thing I am fond of--there are *no* vendors mentioned on the ASF pages; only people.
13:14 jdavidb Some of those people obviously work for companies that are making money off of ASF work, but it's *people* that make the projects go, and that's what the meritocracies are about...people, not companies.
13:15 * jdavidb would *love* to see set up like that.
13:27 paul_p jdavidb: there are pros and cons about having companies or not. Koha widely differs from Apache, and I think it's a good idea to have a directory on (that would be handled by neutral ppl, you get 1 point on this).
13:28 paul_p + I strongly think the LL changes is not linked to the ptfs history.
13:28 paul_p (but explaining why I think that would be too long)
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13:30 jdavidb paul_p:  fair 'nuf.  Having seen both sides of the LL/PTFS scrap, that was really a separate problem from what's going on now.  (might have been a symptom of a larger problem.)
13:31 jdavidb Truly-neutral handling of a directory of vendors would be fine with me--but that neutrality is something that Foundation would need to protect very fiercely, IMO.
13:31 paul_p a symptom or a catalyser...
13:34 * jdavidb nods.
13:39 kf joined #koha
13:40 jdavidb Hi, kf!
13:40 collum joined #koha
13:40 jdavidb Mornin', collum.
13:41 collum Hi jdavidb
13:43 kf hi jdavidb
13:50 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: I think it could be a good idea to create a submodule for zebra configuration files
13:50 gmcharlt hdl_laptop: agreed, maybe with a little abstraction of indexing config to boot
13:52 hdl_laptop I think i donot follow you.
13:53 hdl_laptop Abstract what ?
13:53 jdavidb follows gmcharlt's line of thinking, and agrees vigorously!
13:53 jdavidb I'm all for it, Galen.
13:54 gmcharlt hdl_laptop: my idea is that the idexing config would be expressed in general terms
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13:54 gmcharlt that could be used to emit Zebra config
13:54 gmcharlt and later extended to emit Solr configs
13:55 hdl_laptop Yes agreed.
13:55 jdavidb So the user interface would say, create an index called <foo>, which watches field/subfields <bar>,<baz>, and <quux>, and the module takes care of the hairy details?
13:56 hdl_laptop But then it would require a tool for management of that
13:56 kf nice
13:56 gmcharlt hdl_laptop: yeah, there should be a tool eventually
13:56 kf something like conditional indexing would be nice to: index 880 in index title when $6245
13:57 jdavidb Save that in a config table, and have rebuild_zebra yank it out and build its' own configs when -r -w is called.
13:57 gmcharlt pretty much, though a bit more caching of the config would be better
13:58 hdl_laptop jdavidb: would not be efficient for everyday use, unless the tool writes the files... rather than creates all the time
13:58 jdavidb That's what I was thinking, hdl.  If you change these tables, you'd need to run rebuild_zebra anyway, so have it rebuild the zebra-*.config files as a first step.
14:01 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: anything I could do to help with newacq branch ?
14:01 gmcharlt hdl_laptop: hang on 15 minutes
14:02 hdl_laptop no problems
14:12 chris_n gmcharlt++ #user-definable zebra indexes
14:19 owen If Koha became part of the Apache Software Foundation, what would that mean for the koha web site?
14:19 owen (and ASF is just a for-instance)
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14:22 hdl_laptop I can see no link between Website and being part of a foundation
14:23 owen Would being part of such a foundation give us the collective resources necessary to take out of any one company's hands?
14:25 hdl_laptop ressources are what you bring.
14:25 hdl_laptop Foundation itself, unless we join a big foundation, has no money on itself
14:26 schuster still has to virtually reside someplace and that domain has to be owned by someone...
14:26 hdl_laptop And i doubt that you can start joining and first ask for money.
14:26 hdl_laptop schuster: yes.
14:27 hdl_laptop But maybe not in one's vendor hands
14:27 wizzyrea how long until the domain registration runs out?
14:27 paul_p wizzyrea: which one ?
14:27 chris_n as I understand it, koha was in use in the USA prior to LL's existence; if so the prior user has the right to file a petition to cancel the registration based on evidence of its prior use
14:27 paul_p ('morning)
14:28 owen chris_n: Good point.
14:28 paul_p chris_n: the problem here, is the contract btw katipo & LL. If he says "katipo sells DNS & name & copyright to LL", then it's a bad news.
14:28 wizzyrea, december 2012
14:28 * chris_n refers to the us TM of koha which would affect the ownership of domain as well
14:29 chris_n paul_p: I don't think katipo copyrighted or tm'd the name
14:30 wizzyrea[…]hp? whois info
14:30 hdl_laptop koha is a common noun in NZ so cannot be even trademarked in NZ
14:30 paul_p chris_n: i'm sure they didn't, because koha is like "hello" in NZ
14:30 chris_n but they could answer that
14:30 chris_n paul_p: didn't Biblibre use the "Koha" "brand" in the US prior to LL?
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14:31 hdl_laptop No, only in France
14:31 * chris_n believes someone did, but is not familiar with the early history of koha in the US
14:31 paul_p hdl_laptop: not really, my 1st customer has been... NPL (thanks again stephen)
14:32 owen So if anyone, it was NPL that "used" the Koha brand.
14:32 paul_p chris_n: here is the history: I started working on koha on 2002, oct 1st, as self employed person, and I got the NPL contract on Oct 3rd !
14:33 chris_n I think there may be enough "prior usage" to build a case on if need be
14:33 owen Good luck getting us to pony up the money for a lawyer.
14:33 paul_p chris_n: I think we would have less pain moving to ;-)
14:33 wizzyrea yes, abandoning ship on that doman might be easier :P
14:33 chris_n paul_p: I think so too
14:34 wizzyrea not to mention... erm... more embarrassing
14:34 * chris_n imagines a plethora of suit/counter-suit and runs the other way... fast
14:34 paul_p git is not a problem, mailing lists are ours (BibLibre), so the only problem (but it's large), is the website...
14:34 paul_p (it's large because there are a lot of references to all around the web)
14:35 wizzyrea and good luck getting a redirect
14:35 paul_p wizzyrea: of course...
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15:38 rhcl_away is now known as rhcl
15:46 kf http://www.librarytechnology.o[…]
15:47 owen "LibLime Enterprise Koha represents the most advanced and comprehensive open-source ILS solution available to libraries."
15:47 owen Except it's not open source anymore.
15:47 wizzyrea Well, open by letter, but not by spirit
15:47 jdavidb owen++
15:49 owen "Just to make one thing crystal clear: All of LibLime's development efforts will be available to the library community under an open-source license"
15:49 owen Dumping a tarball in the community's lap isn't exactly sharing.
15:50 owen "Here's our forked code. Integrate it if you can."
15:51 wizzyrea not to mention that it creates vendor lock in, since no one else (without reverse engineering) will be able to maintain that install.
15:51 kf yep
15:51 kf but most people wont understand that :(
15:52 wizzyrea and you certainly are looking at a proper migration if you want to go between the two versions
15:52 * wizzyrea frowns
15:52 jdavidb yep.  Big-time.
15:52 kf and they have some really nice features in their enterprise.... :(
15:52 owen "Koha Enterprise, now with vendor lock-in"
15:52 wizzyrea frankly, I don't think there's much there that isn't in the works by someone else
15:53 wizzyrea it will just take longer to get
15:53 jdavidb We've been working some of those, kf, but hadn't quite got 'em ready to toss over the wall before 6 Sept.  :(
15:53 kf yes
15:53 kf of course nobody did hourly loans for koha after liblime promised ths feature for 3.2...
15:53 paul_p kf: I wouldn't be so negative about ppl not understanding. If everybody does enough noise, I hope ppl will understand. And as there is more than 1 vendor for Koha in US, others will be able to do their jobs and point the problems.
15:54 wizzyrea yea, that's the annoying bit, the promised the community that the features were coming... to the community
15:54 wizzyrea and now they're not
15:54 paul_p in french we say "promises engages only those listening them" (heavy frenchisms heavily suspected...)
15:55 wizzyrea how is it in french?
15:55 paul_p "les promesses n'engagent que ceux qui les écoutent"
15:55 wizzyrea yep, that makes more sense (to me anyway)
15:55 kf not to me :)
15:56 paul_p kf: i Haven't speak german for 15 years. Won't try to translate, sorry :(
15:57 jdavidb kf:  Google Translate renders it as:bindende Zusagen, dass diejenigen, die zuhören, but it makes a total hash when Paul's statement is fed to it and asked for English.
15:57 kf paul_p: no problem. Its just I regret sometimes not to have learned french, chose russian instead in school.
15:57 chris_n paul_p: actually it comes across clearly in English
15:57 kf makes no sense - Google does not translate very well to German
15:58 jdavidb "binding promises that those who listen?"      Oh!  A promise binds those who *listen* to it, right?
15:58 nicomo jdavidb: right
15:58 wizzyrea that was what I got out of it, lol
15:58 * jdavidb cannot brain today; he has the dumb.  And he talks Texan only, most of the time.
15:59 paul_p engage for bind. That's a big frenchism ;-)
15:59 * wizzyrea loves frenchisms
16:00 paul_p "engager" in french is not a matter of love or getting married ;-)
16:00 wizzyrea irony...
16:00 paul_p bind is much better ;-)
16:00 wizzyrea we has it
16:00 gmcharlt jdavidb: there's alwas Texas Cajun
16:00 gmcharlt no excuse for not knowing French ;)
16:00 wizzyrea jdavidb: pwnt by gmcharlt!
16:00 jdavidb gmcharlt, you're forgetting how *big* texas is.  the cajun folk might as well have been on Mars, they were so far from me.
16:01 owen For that matter jdavidb ought to know Czech too:
16:01 wizzyrea jdavidb: that's no excuse!
16:01 wizzyrea ;)
16:01 nicomo I once heard a Cajun person talking: I couldn't understand a word
16:01 gmcharlt jdavidb: I was an Alaskan for a while; split Alaska in two and Texas becomes the third biggest state ;)
16:01 schuster Sad day in Koha land...;(
16:01 wizzyrea schuster: very. What do you think about it?
16:02 jdavidb Abilene is 120 miles (~193km) away from the wrong side of the middle of nowhere.
16:02 wizzyrea (besides sad)
16:02 paul_p schuster: you should be more positive. now things are public. We will be able to do something !
16:02 wizzyrea I do appreciate paul_p... he's always so positive!
16:02 * paul_p tired of all this rumors that we faced for months...
16:03 kf what makes me angry is, they still can pick the nice thinigs we do
16:03 kf if someone makes a better hourly loan they can just go and copy the code
16:03 kf its seems so unfair.
16:04 gmcharlt kf: don't be angry at that - if we want to share, we share to any and all
16:04 nicomo gmcharlt: ++
16:04 jdavidb gmcharlt++
16:04 paul_p and migrate their already LL Enterprise Koha ? I wouldn't be the one having to deal with that !
16:04 kf you are right, its just it feels so unfair
16:04 paul_p no, it's a technical nonsense and dead-end !
16:05 jdavidb Migrating one of their customers who's on the "Enterprise" edition would be a significant pain, too true.
16:05 nicomo and besides, if they do fork, they'll have problem integrating what we do too
16:05 wizzyrea nicomo: it's not an if, anymore
16:05 paul_p nicomo++
16:05 wizzyrea it's done.
16:05 nicomo wizzyrea: it is
16:06 owen They're forking. They promise to reject any community-contributed patches which don't meet their own standards.
16:06 nicomo but I guess technically they could still merge our stuff in without too much of an investment
16:06 nicomo whereas in a while it's going to be just impossible
16:06 gmcharlt nicomo: nope, merging gets progressively more difficult for *both* sides for the fork
16:06 paul_p can I say I'm feeling like someone seeing LL747 going to hit a tower today?
16:07 nicomo gmcharlt: yes, that's what I meant
16:07 chris_n imho the greater concern is the intangible "good-will" associated with the "koha" name and how to recover that in the case of a name modification/change
16:07 nicomo but could'nt express myself clearly, sorry
16:07 gmcharlt paul_p: that's going just a bit too far :)
16:07 chris_n the code is open source regardless of the outcome of this situation
16:08 nicomo forking cuts both ways : those on the LL entreprise fork won't be able to get the community stuff pretty soon
16:09 schuster The spirit of opensource with LibLime is lost.  For those of us that have to bid for services when there are multiple companies that can provide the service this gets more difficult - especially when it comes to development.
16:09 wizzyrea yea, and that makes me, as a LL customer, feel like I"m swimming in the LL lagoon
16:09 wizzyrea not on the koha ocean
16:09 nicomo nice analogy
16:09 * chris_n thinks of "the creature from the black lagoon" ;-)
16:10 * paul_p remember New caledonia "ile des pins" lagoon, but this one is probably not the same kind of lagoon...
16:11 schuster I'm locally hosted so this brings me to a whole new problem - choose LL enterprise or have to bid out support services...  Anybody have an RFP?
16:11 wizzyrea when I put it that way to josh, he said "well I see it as the other way around... liblime has the ocean" and I didn't have the energy to pursue him on it
16:11 paul_p LL has the ocean... wow... i'm really really astonished !
16:12 schuster LibLime does have an ocean in the development "PLAN" right now but how soon will his well dry up when all of these people signed on as an Open Source ILS - once it forks they won't be OpenSource freely.
16:13 schuster We will be back to a proprietary system and to maintain it they will raise fees etc... putting them back on the original Proprietary model we all chose to leave.
16:13 owen I just don't understand their motivation. Why turn your back on a global family of developers giving you free stuff?
16:14 paul_p http://www.librarytechnology.o[…]
16:14 schuster Control..
16:14 kf fearing competition?
16:14 paul_p owen: when you think you're better than everybody, at the end, you think everybody is wrong and you're right.
16:15 owen "the library can utilize documentation and community support to proceed with data migration and configuration of the new system"
16:15 owen You've got to be kidding me.
16:16 paul_p ( LL timing is quite good. They're underwhelming the bad announce with a lot of announces that sounds nice ! )
16:16 owen "Here's your Koha installation, now go mooch off the community we thumbed our noses at"
16:17 * chris_n finally grasps paul_p's 9/11 remark.... :-P
16:18 paul_p hey, a "funny" thing to do: add a "poison pill" into koha official, displaying a news on koha express setups (from the url that will probably be *
16:18 paul_p (or *
16:19 kf Is Koha Express the old Koha Classic?
16:19 owen Has anyone tried to take up Liblime's offer to share *
16:19 jdavidb Classic was all 2.2 systems, when I was there.
16:20 paul_p or another one (that will probably be unfair, but I throw it : if we detect the url is, send the mail address of all branches to, then, contact them to explain)
16:20 kf ah, thx jdavidb
16:20 paul_p if they REALLY plan to deploy koha official, there are zillions of way to do things like this one !
16:21 jdavidb They had a thing that was called "Small Library Bundles", and those were about where the Express is, only with conversion and support.
16:21 owen Remind me not to get on paul_p's bad side! :)
16:21 wizzyrea holy moly no kidding
16:21 * jdavidb finds paul_p to be sneaky and mean, and finds that one more reason to like him.
16:21 wizzyrea of course
16:21 paul_p owen: lol
16:21 wizzyrea since you've discussed them here they're public record
16:21 wizzyrea and they would take action to prevent it
16:22 wizzyrea oh, I just love games of cat and mouse
16:22 jdavidb 'specially when you're the cat, wizzyrea?
16:22 wizzyrea meow!
16:22 jdavidb lol
16:22 paul_p wizzyrea: I know it's public. And I don't really plan to do that. I just want to point it's a technical non-sense to go this way
16:22 wizzyrea paul_p I know you know :)
16:23 * wizzyrea is trying to be funny, and failing. This is serious business!
16:23 * gmcharlt does point out that he has no intention of pushing patches that are in any sense retaliatory - Koha Official qua the software itself shoudl be about benefit to libraries and their patron
16:23 paul_p hey, something we WILL do: the doc will move soon (for sure...) it will display a red-large thing on 1st page.
16:23 rhcl You know, I'm kinda on the fringe of this whole thing, but I don't see the whole LL/community issue in nearly as negative a sense as some apparently. I mean, this is an opportunity to move on with the project, right? This development situation seems to be really common in the OS world, but good projects survive and become really successful.
16:24 paul_p rhcl++ that's why i'm also positive
16:24 owen rhcl: the problem right now is that Liblime still has a lot of power over the community, in particular with
16:24 paul_p (long term, because, short term, it's a pain)
16:24 wizzyrea gmcharlt ++
16:25 chris_n gmcharlt++ # that is exactly as it should be; this is FOSS and nothing less
16:25 jdavidb rhcl++   ...but you're not on the fringe, IMO.  You're here, and that puts you smack dab in the middle.  People who don't use Koha, or don't code Koha....that's the fringe.
16:25 jdavidb @karma gmcharlt
16:25 munin` jdavidb: Karma for "gmcharlt" has been increased 48 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 48.
16:25 rhcl Well, we're still trying to get serials running... :) I don't feel like I'm in the middle yet.
16:26 rhcl seems good to me
16:26 paul_p gmcharlt: I agree. just to be clear: I don't plan to do anything harmfull for Koha or librarians. I just want to make clear that what LL does is a technical non-sense !
16:27 gmcharlt paul_p: yeah, I figured :)
16:28 jdavidb I heard chris use the best term I've heard yet for what's happened: LL has "lost the plot."
16:33 kf Its on the mailinglists now: Erik Lewis on [Koha]:   Is Koha now officially forked?
16:36 paul_p look at
16:37 nicomo is now known as nicomo_away
16:38 chris wow, you know its a big koha news day when the computers in the house are all beeping loudly as they see tweets and emails galore
16:39 * chris goes round turning off speakers
16:39 gmcharlt paul_p: is timing out for me at the moment
16:39 gmcharlt ah, here it is back
16:39 paul_p gmcharlt: was not 2mn ago
16:39 paul_p yep, it was this (french) morning too
16:39 paul_p it's probably the plone effect ;-)
16:40 chris_n chris: heh, good morning
16:41 kf chris: good morning
16:41 chris gotta say i agree with the sentiment that im glad this is finally public
16:42 paul_p chris++
16:42 chris now we can call damage, route around it, and move on
16:46 * chris wonders who will be the first to reply to erik's email
16:46 chris not me, cos its 4.45am ... and i need to go back to sleep
16:46 * chris wanders off back to bed
16:47 * chris_n thought 4 hours of sleep was a bit lean... and on a Saturday morning too ;-)
16:49 kf need to leave now - bye #koha
16:50 * paul_p has to leave now (7pm in France, and we have guests today)
16:50 kf going to the movies :)
16:50 chris_n bye paul_p && kf
16:51 kf bye :)
16:51 kf left #koha
16:51 wizzyrea bye everybody
16:51 * wizzyrea is not leaving yet thoug
16:51 * owen remembers movies
16:51 * wizzyrea does too
16:51 owen It's a dim memory...about three kids back.
16:52 * wizzyrea wistfully remembers popcorn, and the seats with the raiseable armrests... and snuggling...
16:53 wizzyrea mine's not that dim, but still pretty dim. Good sitters are hard to come by around here. Or I'm just too picky. That's probably it
16:53 owen We were too picky with #1. Should have seen more movies back then.
16:55 * chris_n lets the older children babysit the youngest one
16:55 biglego joined #koha
16:55 jdavidb hm....the last time I took a date to the movies, that was before the raiseable armrests were all that popular.  Must try to find a date some time.
16:55 jdavidb And my evil minion is 16, and can watch herself!
16:58 wizzyrea left #koha
16:58 wizzyrea joined #koha
16:59 wizzyrea hi biglego :)
17:04 owen Time for a three- or four-martini lunch
17:04 owen is now known as owen-away
17:04 sekjal joined #koha
17:05 paul_p left #koha
17:17 biglego left #koha
17:23 kr1shnan joined #koha
17:24 jdavidb hi, kr1shnan! :)
17:24 kr1shnan jdavidb: Hi!
17:42 Colin left #koha
18:01 owen-away is now known as owen
18:01 owen Damn, no /good/ news in the last hour?
18:02 sekjal owen: seems not
18:05 kr1shnan left #koha
18:18 tajoli joined #koha
18:24 brendan quieted down for the moment -- but geeze
18:26 sekjal well, at least an official statement has been issued.
18:27 brendan response to questions from the mailing list?
18:28 sekjal no; the list has only been community members reactions at this point
18:28 brendan ok -- thought I missed sometime
18:29 owen There has been some back-and-forth on the liblime-users list. Some questions, some complaining (me) and some "Yay, go Liblime"
18:29 wizzyrea owen: did you note who that was from?
18:29 wizzyrea ...I did. Heh.
18:29 owen Yup
18:29 brendan I'm guessing waldo ?
18:29 owen "Yay Liblime, down with open source!"
18:29 wizzyrea you didn't hear it from me >.>
18:29 sekjal well, at least someone's happy
18:29 brendan where's waldo :)
18:29 owen Not on the Koha list it seems.
18:30 brendan hehe
18:30 sekjal I guess I don't have to bug them anymore about saying something official
18:31 brendan I listen to talk radio during the day -- (usually a sports station from new york)  wish that these announcers would break down the koha community at the moment
18:31 wizzyrea wow, that would be funny
18:31 brendan would be a riot -- NPR breaks down the community
18:32 wizzyrea we could call the teams "the letter" and the "spirit"
18:33 sekjal well, "the letter" certainly did make a strong play
18:34 brendan "spirit" the sleeping giant -
18:34 brendan well chris is sleeping at least :)
18:34 owen :)
18:34 jdavidb If by "strong play" you mean "a lot of racket that no one much on the other side is impressed by," I think you've hit it on the head.
18:35 jdavidb Like sending a Pop Warner team of 6-year-olds up against the Washington Redskins.
18:38 sekjal I guess I'm lazy.  I really don't want to recode Course Reserves when a perfectly good patch is already been written
18:38 sekjal it seems like such a waste
18:38 wizzyrea it is a waste, definitely not the best use of community resources
18:38 Nate joined #koha
18:39 sekjal and setting up MFHD support... ::shudder::
18:39 chris it'll come back
18:39 chris thts the retarded thing
18:39 brendan yay -- goodmorning chris
18:39 sekjal morning, chris
18:39 jdavidb g'morning, chris!
18:39 chris its just a dumb move all round
18:39 wizzyrea you are up really early
18:39 chris_n g'morning for the second time
18:39 chris :)
18:39 wizzyrea what is it, 6ish now?
18:40 chris yeah got a flight at 8.40
18:40 wizzyrea Ahhh
18:40 chris but you are right about the waste
18:42 rhcl Who is Jonathan Sowash?
18:42 chris and again what annoys me more than the actual fork, is the bullshit being thrown around to justify it
18:42 owen LibLime's attorney
18:42 rhcl ic
18:44 sekjal so, if none of us follow LibLime, does that still make them "the leader in open-source solutions for libraries"?
18:44 chris hehe
18:44 chris_n sekjal++
18:45 brendan don't you mean the global leader?
18:45 chris i would have been nice if they had gone the whole hog
18:45 chris and renamed it
18:46 sekjal LEK... not the most appeal acronym if you pronounce it.
18:46 wizzyrea left #koha
18:47 wizzyrea joined #koha
18:47 rhcl "Enterprise" Koha has a "commanding" sound, don't you think?
18:47 chris needs to be rewritten in java for it to be enterprise
18:47 rhcl ada
18:47 chris with oracle
18:47 jdavidb Assember.
18:47 jdavidb assembler, even.
18:47 chris_n yuk
18:48 chris_n assembler++
18:48 chris assembler might actually work
18:48 chris_n oracle--
18:48 chris has to be something that wont actually work for enterprise
18:48 rhcl That said, I think it would be great for Koha to be database independent.
18:48 chris imo 15 years of software dev experience anyway :)
18:48 chris rhcl: its on the development plan
18:50 chris catalyst are big postgres users so lots of ppl here interested in working on that
18:52 sekjal it would definitely be nice to have DB options.
18:52 rhcl Firebird!
18:53 chris i have a dbix::class branch that i started work on
18:53 chris i cant show you, and i promise to release the code at some vaguely specified time in the future when its been vetted
18:54 owen :D
18:54 chris but in the real world, its up on my public git repo
18:54 owen chris: be sure to release it not as a patch but as a giant tarball of the whole Koha installation
18:55 chris[…]/heads/dbix_class
18:55 chris ill definitely be taking from all of your guys work tho
18:56 gmcharlt chris++ # please do ;)
18:56 sekjal chris: we know you'll release your branch once you've developed other stuff to vette
18:57 chris yes, i need to do this to afford my corvette
18:57 * jdavidb loves it when chris gets riled up and sassy.
18:57 * wizzyrea giggles
18:58 chris hehe
18:58 * wizzyrea really likes the word sassy, and  must find more reasons to use it
18:59 * jdavidb thinks wizzy needs to be careful using sassy, since she *is*, and it would call too much attention to her.
19:01 chris rhcl:[…]8354ca285574e3f9a
19:02 chris i have used this schema to create a postgres and a mysql db
19:02 chris so even just for that alone, its handy
19:02 chris ok, i must go get ready to fly down to the south island where the rest of my family is
19:03 wizzyrea no ferry?
19:03 wizzyrea or too far?
19:03 brendan safe trip chris
19:03 wizzyrea have a good time :D
19:03 chris 45 mins on a plane
19:03 chris 3 hours on ferry + 5 hour drive
19:03 chris plane wins
19:03 wizzyrea vs hours on the boat + drive, yea, that makes sense
19:03 gmcharlt chris: have fun
19:03 sekjal a good flight to you, chris.
19:03 jdavidb Safe journey!
19:04 * wizzyrea has been watching too much Lost, and worries you might fly through a time traveling window and end up in 1974 >.<
19:04 nengard wow - just caught up on 3 hours of chat
19:04 wizzyrea but have a safe trip all the same
19:04 owen +7 hour donkey ride? +11 hour hike? +14 hour crawl?
19:04 pianohackr|work joined #koha
19:06 * nengard laughs at owen
19:06 * pianohackr|work laughs at nengard
19:07 sekjal hi, nengard
19:07 nengard howdy sekjal
19:08 brendan heya nengard
19:09 jdavidb Hi, nengard!
19:10 nengard hey owen - i have a bone to pick me - something about needing 2 companies to tame me!!!
19:10 owen :)
19:10 owen You're right. You shall never be tamed!
19:11 gmcharlt lol
19:12 * jdavidb thought about commenting on that, but he is older and possibly-wiser, in his lucid moments, and didn't.
19:13 nengard you know, i read a few posts a while about about women in open source
19:14 nengard an apparently many women feel like they don't fit in
19:14 nengard i just feel like the punching bag :) hehe
19:14 nengard everyone pick on Nicole
19:14 nengard she can take it
19:14 wizzyrea awww
19:14 nengard hehe
19:14 wizzyrea nooo
19:14 nengard LOL
19:14 brendan[…]pac-customization
19:14 nengard I'm totally kidding
19:14 pianohackr|work nengard: Don't forget wizzyrea
19:14 * jdavidb falls out of his chair laughing.
19:15 nengard pianohackr|work: yes, but you're all nice to her ;) hehe
19:15 pianohackr|work nengard: When you're around, yes :)
19:15 nengard hehe
19:15 wizzyrea it's true
19:15 wizzyrea I get teased all the time
19:15 * jdavidb picks on wizzyrea almost as much as he picks on nengard.
19:16 nengard brendan: LOL
19:17 brendan something -- is always worth more ;)
19:17 * jdavidb makes up a big box of clues, addresses it to Tina Burger, and puts it in the mail.
19:18 wizzyrea dharsh
19:18 sekjal screenshot snagged
19:19 wizzyrea lol harsh
19:19 * pianohackr|work hides
19:19 sekjal its the little chuckles that get me through the day
19:19 wizzyrea there are enough reasons to vilify them, neglectful marketing is pretty far down the list
19:19 wizzyrea :)
19:21 brendan ah bummer -- I gotta run out the door ---
19:21 brendan talk with you all later -- enjoy the weekend
19:21 sekjal see ya, brendan!
19:21 sekjal you, too
19:23 wizzyrea bye brendan
19:23 brendan left #koha
19:31 * chris_n spreads himself yet thinner :-P
19:32 wizzyrea like butter over too much bread?
19:34 tajoli left #koha
19:34 chris_n hehe
19:35 chris_n its really a case of more hats than head to put them on
19:36 wizzyrea I think that's my favorite line from all of the LOTR movies
19:38 Nate my favorite has to be "I wish it need not have have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
19:38 Nate ‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.’
19:39 wizzyrea that's a good one too
19:39 * jdavidb blinks, as his English parser crashes.
19:40 wizzyrea lol
19:40 wizzyrea ...they changed somethign
19:40 wizzyrea something*
19:41 Nate left #koha
19:43 * jdavidb has had all the fun he can take for one day.  Y'all have a good weekend.
19:43 pianohackr|work See ya
19:43 sekjal you, too, jdavidb
19:43 jdavidb left #koha
19:45 pianohackr|work wizzyrea: What did they change?
19:45 wizzyrea in the matrix
19:46 wizzyrea Nate had a deja vu in his LOTR quote
19:46 pianohackr|work Hehe
19:52 nicomo_away left #koha
20:03 owen Have a good weekend everyone. Looking forward to more fireworks next week!
20:03 owen left #koha
20:03 sekjal cheers, owen
20:09 sekjal going to head for my train.  until next week, everyone!
20:10 sekjal left #koha
20:18 * chris_n heads out
20:19 jwagner joined #koha
20:25 Sharon left #koha
20:28 nengard left #koha
20:37 jwagner left #koha
20:38 chris_n2-away joined #koha
20:55 wizzyrea heh[…]anges-at-liblime/
21:10 pianohackr|work Quick, everybody, make some drama!
21:10 wizzyrea Yay!
21:18 chris_n2-away is now known as chris_n2
21:18 chris_n2 ha... "A man without culture is like a zebra without stripes."
21:24 pianohackr|work chris_n2: ?
21:25 schuster left #koha
21:26 chris_n2 oh.... sorry.... that was totally unrelated to wizzyrea 's obervation :-)
21:26 chris_n2 I thought it was interesting in light of zebra being koha's indexing engine
21:26 chris_n2 it's supposed to be an old African proverb
21:29 chris_n2 although forking with an attitude might constitute a certain lack of culture in its own right
21:30 pianohackr|work Yes...
21:55 collum left #koha
22:39 rhcl is now known as rhcl_away
22:53 cait joined #koha
22:56 cait left #koha
22:57 pianohackr|work ttfn
22:57 pianohackr|work left #koha
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