IRC log for #koha, 2009-07-30

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
13:46 magnusenger owen: cant see no newlogbot, can you?
13:46 cau0730 morning all
13:47 ricardo slef: Right, that's what I'm afraid of, thanks  :(  How do you do it? Do you have ONE machine / virtual machine for each Koha version installed?
13:47 slef no, I have git trickery
13:48 ricardo slef: Eheh, OK
13:48 magnusenger owen: sorry, i can see it now...
13:48 slef look at git clone man page and the options for using links instead of copies
13:48 owen magnusenger: it just arrived
13:48 cau0730 i still have my leader problem, but have decided that i have to get some actual work done so i have moved onto integration to our SIS(Student Information System) :)  
13:49 slef and then you put one git clone on one version, then checkout the other version in other other git clone
13:49 slef then generally behave as for virtual hosting
13:49 slef (the different databases on the same computer thing you linked)
13:49 slef cau0730: if SIS speaks LDAP, you're almost there.
13:49 ricardo slef: OK, thank you very much for the pointers/information!  :)  I consider myself just one step above "git newbie", but I'll try to check that out
13:50 slef ricardo: learn by making mistakes!
13:50 slef just be prepared ;-
13:50 slef )
13:50 cau0730 slef: it can but that is not the way we are going for students.  they don't need to be in an ldap
13:51 cau0730 the SIS can connect to the Koha DB
13:51 cau0730 so when a student is created there then they are created an account in Koha
13:51 slef cau0730: OK, but you'll have to track Koha Members/Borrowers development more closely if you don't connect through an API
13:51 slef and I think LDAP is the main API at the moment
13:52 cau0730 our librarians don't add borrowers.   it is all done electronic
13:52 slef it's open, it'll probably be fine, just be prepared when you upgrade
13:53 cau0730 never upgrading.   that is not my decision but the division of the board
13:53 ricardo slef: I'm only finding three options regarding links in the man page for git-clone (--shared/-s, --no-hardlinks and --reference <repository>). Which one(s) should I be reading?
13:54 slef ricardo: I think --shared
13:54 ricardo slef: OK, thanks
13:54 slef cau0730: that'll be fun when we do a security release :-/
13:54 cau0730 on 2.2?  i thought it was no more
13:55 slef oh yeah, 2.2 is probably no more
13:55 ricardo slef: So, you mean the one that has this text on the man page: "NOTE: this is a possibly dangerous operation; do not use it unless you understand what it does."  Right?  ;-)
13:55 slef we tried to get a 2.2.10 together, but no-one seemed willing to pay
13:55 slef ricardo: learn by making mistakes!
13:55 cau0730 lol  i don't blame them :)  3 looks wayyyyyyy better
13:55 slef ricardo: actually, I'd not seen that.  Will go reread it.
13:56 ricardo slef: OK
13:56 cau0730 i wish i was here from the start...  i would have had a lot of patches for you all
13:57 slef ricardo: oh, yeah, never use --shared on a copy you're going to be developing in.  I'm 99% sure it's fine for hosting multiple versions from, though.
13:57 cau0730 now i am just playing catchup with a system that is inferior to 3
13:58 ricardo slef: OK, thanks for the information. I understand what you're saying by "learn by making mistakes", but I really can't do that for this setup. Thanks anyway
13:58 slef ricardo: ok.  The safe way is to unpack tar.gz files then, but it takes more space.
13:58 slef also upgrades become more work
13:59 ricardo slef: Space is NOT an issue  :)   But problems that arise because there are several Koha versions installed *is* an Issue. That's why I'm trying to figure out if there's a SAFE way to do that.
14:00 slef yes, just make sure none of them are on the PERL5LIB path
14:00 slef the other thing that may go wrong is if any of the versions require different third-party versions, but I don't think we have that problem within 3.x
14:01 slef earlier versions will run on later versions of the CPAN things as far as I know
14:01 slef earlier versions of Koha that is
14:01 ricardo slef: Great. Thanks for the tip... I guess that I'll have to update the PERL5LIB environment variable before I run, say, "" from one of the "Kohas" installed
14:01 slef yes, each Koha will have its own PERL5LIB and KOHA_CONF
14:02 ricardo slef: Right... Both in "Virtual Hosts" in Apache *and* for "command line tools", like ""... Right?
14:02 slef just install no koha-conf.xml to /etc and no C4 to /usr/*/share and you shouldn't get any embarassing version confusions
14:02 slef yes, right
14:02 |Lupin| hi ricardo
14:02 slef the other thing is to make sure your zebra databases are kept apart
14:02 ricardo slef: Cool, many thanks!  :)  There's a beer waiting for you, here in Portugal  ;-)
14:02 slef but I think they're generally easier to rebuild from the SQL if needed
14:03 ricardo slef: Oh, I don't use Zebra
14:03 ricardo |Lupin|: Hi Sébastien! :)  (sp?)
14:03 slef ricardo: careful. I may collect ;-)
14:03 |Lupin| ricardo: sp ?
14:03 ricardo slef: And I'll gladfully pay  :)
14:04 slef ricardo: can I get travel expenses? ;-)
14:04 ricardo |Lupin|: "sp = spelling". Meaning: Did I spell Sébastien correctly?
14:04 |Lupin| ricardo: sure !
14:04 ricardo slef: Do you mean to FLY over here? Hmm... I think that's a bit over my "beer budgeting", eheh
14:05 ricardo |Lupin|: Cool :)
14:05 cau0730 how about the "vodka" budget :)
14:05 gmcharlt alcohol-powered airplane?
14:06 slef ricardo: I was thinking train, but that's no cheaper ;-)
14:06 ricardo gmcharlt: It's Galen. He's alive!  ;-)
14:06 ricardo slef: Right
14:06 slef ricardo: shhhhh, or everyone will want one.
14:09 slef ohhh, lovely - npogroups lets you resend an email from the archives
14:10 ricardo gmcharlt: I still have to reply to your "transition or continuity" email (I'm having *very busy* weeks). But, my thoughts are, in brief: "Congratulations to you and Equinox / Evergreen (they are very lucky for being able to count you in). All the best for your new work/position. Very bad news for LibLime and Koha... "
14:10 gmcharlt ricardo: thanks
14:11 ricardo gmcharlt: You're welcome  :)
14:11 cau0730 i love the my *old* teamates.   no unique identifiers for any thing  lol     they had no clue how to design a db
14:13 ricardo cau0730: Right, it's much better to use *several* unique identifiers, eheh... (actually, I'm just "half joking" here - it's pretty usual to see a table that has some autonumber/sequence ID *and* some kind of unique "official" number like SSN - Social Security Number)
14:13 cau0730 fore instance we have 3 dbs for students all with their own naming convention.   all that we have to compare on is if we have a first name and a last name.  so if we have two John doe's which one is the correct one
14:14 atz cau0730: sounds like fun.   i've had to do the same kind of thing before.  usually some kind of field like birthday helps find matches
14:14 cau0730 yeah i don't have that :)   prior to my team they didn't think about tracking SSN or birthday
14:15 gmcharlt cau0730: surely there's no need to track SSN?
14:15 ricardo It's atz! The Americans are waking up at the same time. Hi Joe!  :)
14:15 cau0730 actually we weren't allowed to track lots at first do to problems of privacy...  my boss has fought that with the gov't so he could hire a team to work on the SIS
14:16 cau0730 btw: I am in SK, Canada.      that is part of the problem.  Originally from Ohio/PA though
14:16 atz gmcharlt: actually in my experience there IS the need to track SSN, until you can map it to the state's *other* unique ID based on SSN....
14:16 atz held is some crazy inaccessible IBM database
14:16 atz *in
14:16 atz greets ricardo
14:17 gmcharlt atz: well, since libraries have almost no call to run credit reports on their patrons, I'm dubious about them storing SSN + address + other identifying data
14:17 ricardo gmcharlt: Actually, here in Portugal we have a National Identity Card for several decades (and each person has a number in that card). I think there's a great debate about introducing it (or not) in the UK and in the US, right?
14:18 gmcharlt ricardo: tremendous debate
14:18 ricardo gmcharlt: Right, that's what I thought
14:18 gmcharlt among other problems, the US SSN in practice has not just been used as an identifier, but as an authentication mechanism
14:18 cau0730 oh and here is the funny part...  these librarians are mad that we can only do our best when getting this information.   they think "it is almost 2010 and you mean you can't automate this"...  problem is we can if we are given a chance but now they want to bring on a new application for HR so now they want us to "hook up to it" instead of them using a custom database
14:18 gmcharlt making it all too easy to commit "identity theft" sorts of fraud
14:19 ricardo gmcharlt: Yes, and that ("using it as an authentication mechanism") is plain dumb. The SSN is not "a secret"
14:19 cau0730 i remember when i was in college the ssn is what they used for identification
14:19 cau0730 of course that was 6 years ago
14:19 ricardo gmcharlt: I'm NOT saying that you're defending its use as an authentication mechanism. I know you're not!  :)
14:20 gmcharlt ricardo: understood :)
14:20 ricardo :)
14:20 cau0730 it is a nice piece of material to track though when you write an application that will talk to other apps or that could
14:22 ricardo cau0730: Right. The "devil is in the details"... "Integration" is great for many things, in theory, but difficult (or impossible) to implement, in practice, for many setups
14:22 cau0730 that is why we are trying to customize all the software we use for our staff and students
14:23 cau0730 but then you run into issues like i am in :)
14:23 ricardo cau0730: Sure
14:25 ricardo OK. Back to Koha... Any thoughts for the friendly "discussion" that Zeno and I are having in the Koha and now Koha-Devel mailing list? (see Zeno last message "Translation of SQL files")
14:26 cau0730 :)
14:27 gmcharlt ricardo: there should be more of a hierarchical structure to the frameworks
14:27 gmcharlt standard MARC fields + local library fields + translation of labels
14:28 ricardo gmcharlt: *nod*
14:29 gmcharlt as far as mechanics of translation, it would be simple to extract the labels into a .po file to feed into Pootle
14:30 ricardo Maybe standard MARC fields + translation of labels + local library overrides (to the translation of labels) + local library fields (that would have to be translated on a case-by-case basis, obviously, because they are, by definition "custom")
14:31 cau0730 Pootle is a translator???
14:31 ricardo gmcharlt: Hmmm... Good. But that would bring me to another change suggestion (that has probably been suggested in the past, by others): Let "Makefile.PL" / "make test" / "make install" NOT install every language install (that *really* takes a long time to run, in my setups)
14:31 ricardo cau0730: Pootle is more like a web interface to do translations
14:32 ricardo cau0730: http://translate.sourceforge.n[…]/index?redirect=1
14:32 cau0730 ah
14:33 gmcharlt ricardo: it doesn't do that by default, although it might in the tarballs
14:33 gmcharlt cau0730: is an example of a Pootle installation
14:34 ricardo gmcharlt: Right. I'm talking about the tarballs. Obviosuly, *extracting* the tarball will extract every language file, but *installing* shouldn't install them, unless required by the user (IMHO, that is)
14:34 gmcharlt ricardo: yeah, I can agree with that, but then have to make sure that Makefile.PL asks
14:35 ricardo gmcharlt: Right!
14:35 slef there have been some fun discussions about this
14:35 slef ideas including just detecting the installing user $LANG and which locales are installed on the server have been mooted I think
14:35 slef to see your $LANG, the command is "locale"
14:36 slef to see which locales are installed, look in /etc/locale.gen (on debian anyway)
14:36 gmcharlt slef: checking locale for default language selection is a good idea, though it should still ask
14:36 gmcharlt to confirm
14:36 ricardo slef: Yeah, I guessed as much ("fun discussions"). But I haven't found them :)  At least, not in the mailing list(s), but I haven't found them... or do you mean, here on IRC? Or both?
14:37 slef I think they were on koha-devel or koha-translate, but I don't even remember when
14:37 ricardo slef: OK, no problem. Thanks for the tip
14:38 ricardo I think what I'm trying to do is to avoid "DLL Hell..." Oops, sorry... I meant "SQL Hell"  ;-)
14:38 ricardo (BRB)
14:39 slef newbies, visit about:mozilla in your firefox or similar browser
14:43 |Lupin| slef: why ?
14:43 slef |Lupin|: it's funny
14:46 |Lupin| slef: is it textually funny or graphically funny ?
14:46 |Lupin| hi owen
14:46 slef textually funny... want me to msg it?
14:47 |Lupin| slef: if you don't mind, that'd be cool yeah
14:49 |Lupin| slef: thanks
14:49 |Lupin| slef: hard to grasp for a non native english speaker IMO
14:49 |Lupin| but my vocabulary is not very rich...
14:50 atz yeah, it's archaic
14:50 cau0730 i speak english fluently and my vocabulary isn't that rich  lol
14:51 slef cau0730: gizza bob?
14:51 cau0730 huh?
14:52 ricardo The Book of Mozilla
14:53 ricardo
14:53 |Lupin| hi pianohacker
14:54 cau0730 hi pianohacker
14:54 Snow_Fox morning Piano
14:55 nahuel gmcharlt, hi
14:55 pianohacker Hello, all
14:55 gmcharlt hi nahuel
14:56 nahuel gmcharlt, just a question : did you planned to push my bug #3370's patch ?
14:56 nahuel pianohacker, hey :)
14:56 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3370 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---,, ASSIGNED, Add the support of a Get Method on biblio records
14:56 gmcharlt nahuel: I can stick it on a branch, but I'd really like to see an example of what's motivating it
14:57 pianohacker bbl, have to switch networks
14:57 nahuel gmcharlt, ok, perhaps I can e-mail you about it and explain what "problems" we had, and how we decided to fix them
14:58 gmcharlt ok, please do
14:58 nahuel doing it :)
14:58 |Lupin| I'm curious why fields sch as borrower_attribute_types are limited to 10 characters.
14:58 |Lupin| would it be possible to make them a bit larger ?
14:59 gmcharlt |Lupin|: they're meant to be short codes; full descriptoin would go inthe description field
14:59 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yeah, I know... but still...
14:59 gmcharlt 10 is an arbitrary width, but is consistent with other codes
15:00 |Lupin| gmcharlt: I'd like to be able to wirte something like disabilityproff_reception_day as the code, because to me it's like an identifier in a program...
15:01 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yep I know that the branchcodes are 10, too. actually I'd make them bigger, too :-)
15:01 atz meh, you have to stop somewhere
15:01 gmcharlt there's also a DB reason behind it - since borrower_attribute_types.code is a PK, for joins it shouldn't be too long
15:01 |Lupin| perhaps the real quesiton is: what's the point in limiting ? why not using text and let the user do what she wants ?
15:02 atz see above
15:02 Snow_Fox how hard is it to change the search templates for the Opac?
15:02 atz Snow_Fox: "change" in what way?
15:02 Snow_Fox well im looking at the public demo and our demo for the OPAC
15:02 Snow_Fox i notice that the search categorys are fairly different
15:03 Snow_Fox example public has the ability to search by copyright date
15:03 Snow_Fox ours is one big mess of checkboxs of limiters
15:03 cau0730 4 is acceptable for branchcodes...  that gives you 26*26*26*26 = 456976 combinations with just ASCII A-Z
15:03 gmcharlt Snow_Fox: it's not hard to change list of indexes
15:03 |Lupin| gmcharlt, atz: ok... just too bad... :)
15:04 gmcharlt cau0730: heh, but branchcodes are also case where librarians often want more descriptive codes, and 4 can be too short for that
15:04 gmcharlt it's a balancing act
15:05 cau0730 true...  our librarians want them short but not everyone would want them short
15:05 |Lupin| indeed...
15:05 Snow_Fox hmm i notice that in a patrons checked out item on the check and  on the details page it is set so that newnew boxes are autmatically checked if the renew is availiable is there a way to default that to off?
15:05 |Lupin| just one other thing please
15:06 |Lupin| how would you guys define en extended patron attribute intended to contain a date ?
15:06 cau0730 lol i had to remove the renewal from ours...  "privacy concerns"  lol
15:07 owen Snow_Fox: The renew box should automatically be checked if the item is overdue
15:07 owen And yes, some folks object to it. And some folks like it.
15:07 Snow_Fox i see
15:07 Snow_Fox cau0730: privacy concerns?
15:08 atz if you don't want to see your account... *don't log in*
15:08 atz i don't get privacy concerns over that
15:10 cau0730 problem is that they let kids circulate books
15:10 owen Snow_Fox: There's an open bug suggesting that the table on the checkout screen be changed to match the table on the patron detail screen (
15:11 owen cau0730: Can you elaborate? That doesn't make the issue any more clear to me
15:11 atz owen: kids run the circ desk
15:11 cau0730 that is right
15:11 atz so they have a much lower threshold of what "staff" or "operators" should be able to see
15:12 cau0730 yep...   i have had to go to great links to accomadate that
15:12 Snow_Fox shouldnt you be able to control that using granular permissions on a specific login?
15:12 owen if the kids are circulating books, aren't they already seeing what people are checking out?
15:12 atz Snow_Fox: that wouldn't affect down to that level (yes)
15:12 atz (yet*)
15:13 cau0730 the thought is they shouldn't see any current issues
15:13 atz cau0730: i would just have the patrons check themselves out using web selfcheck
15:13 cau0730 only what they are currently issuing to the student
15:13 owen We need a new preference to let people check books out to people but then erase their memory immediately afterwards.
15:13 Snow_Fox well first we get a youtube of richard simons
15:13 cau0730 web selfcheck?
15:14 Snow_Fox ok and does anyone know how claims are handled in Koha?
15:14 Snow_Fox like does a claim show up in a ptron record
15:14 owen How are the items I'm checking out *today* any less private than the ones I checked out yesterday?
15:14 atz cau0730: yeah... designed to allow you to login and do transactions...
15:15 atz simple stuff
15:15 cau0730 i don't know about web selfcheck
15:17 Snow_Fox piano when did you step out
15:17 cau0730 so web selfcheck is in 2.2?
15:17 Snow_Fox i didnt notice you leave
15:17 pianohacker pianoninja
15:17 Snow_Fox im gonna have to make a image of that someday
15:18 Snow_Fox are you a grand piano or more of a smaller keyboard kind
15:19 Snow_Fox eh good enough
15:19 Snow_Fox[…]/2008/01/logo.png
15:19 atz cau0730: not sure... 2.2 is ancient
15:19 cau0730 yeah i didn't think it was   :)
15:20 cau0730 i would have found it
15:20 atz look for -file "sco*"
15:20 cau0730 first thing i did when i started was install a new install of 2.2 and played around with it
15:21 cau0730 they would probably say it wasn't good any way.....  the scrutinize and put down koha all the time
15:21 |Lupin| see you later all, bye !
15:21 cau0730 of course that is due to the last programmer
15:21 cau0730 later
15:22 owen I don't see any sco stuff in 2.2 or dev_week
15:23 owen I think the current stuff is based on sco stuff developed for NPL around the time of dev_week, but I could be wrong. If so, it didn't make it into an official repo
15:23 cau0730 it is okay :)   i got what they want accomplished :)
15:23 cau0730 and they are happy about it
15:24 cau0730 well except for one librarian that can just shove it
15:24 Snow_Fox Is there a record of claims that a patron has on the patron information page or would that be displayed in the reading history of the patron
15:25 cau0730 i have added a global return date if 3 doesn't have one i can submit patches
15:26 gmcharlt cau0730: a global due date? that exists in 3
15:41 slef hi nengard - why doesn't kohails monitor the planet feed?
15:42 nengard slef - no idea :) let me check and see if I included it
15:42 nengard but doesn't that have duplicates?
15:44 nengard slef how is the planet set up? does it pull all posts from koha blogs? or just posts about koha? I have set up the pipe to only pull koha tagged posts
15:44 nengard if it's just koha  stuff i can pull it in and remove duplicates - no prob
15:46 slef it's mostly (all?) koha-specifc feeds people have asked
15:46 slef sometimes it duplicates or resyncs, but usually that's if some server has a problem
15:47 slef liblime developer blogs often goes uncontactable from here
15:47 slef but you might want to hold off for a few days
15:47 slef because I need to move that site between servers anyway
15:47 slef just wondered if kohails couldn't see if for some reason
15:51 Snow_Fox hey for the opacs does koha default the patrons username to his card number?
15:54 nengard slef I never added it - but I did do was add the koha wiki to the pipe - it wasn't on there before - it looks like that's the only one you had that I didn't
15:54 atz Snow_Fox: either way, i believe
15:54 Snow_Fox hey atz if the patron cant validate his username he can default to his card number
15:54 Snow_Fox yes or no
15:54 nengard also I know that often the LL blogs have things that are not necessarily Koha related - I often write about general OSS - so I only put my Koha tagged post in the pipe
15:55 atz er... wait... i misread.  
15:55 atz yeah, you can log in with either
15:55 slef nengard: my koha-tagged post didn't get onto kohails recently
15:55 nengard hmmm
15:55 nengard can you send me a link so i can check it out
15:55 atz but i'm not sure whether the patron addition screen defaults userid to anything at all
15:55 nengard i'm still trying to figure this thing out :)
15:55 slef[…]elling-books/721/
15:56 slef not partic koha-specific that one actually
15:56 owen atz and Snow_Fox: the patron add screen attempts to build a username based on the first letter of the first name plus the last name I believe
15:56 Snow_Fox existing patrons seem to default that way
15:56 slef but more library-relevant than stuff that isn't koha-tagged ;-)
15:56 Snow_Fox ok ill go with that :-P
15:56 nengard self is it if:
15:56 nengard oops
15:56 nengard you sent it already
15:57 nengard okay - I'll add this feed to the pipe - I think I missed it the first time through
15:57 nengard sory about that
15:57 slef ok - how can we see what's in the pipe?
15:57 slef the biog on is useless for contacting anyone for help
15:58 slef also, could add "/ Free Software LMS" to it ;-)
15:58 nengard slef here is the pipe:  
15:58 nengard now - do you have an RSS feed just for the Koha tag? What blog software are you using?
15:58 nengard if it's wordpres I know how to generate that rss feed
15:59 slef[…]ies/koha/feed/rdf I think
16:00 nengard k i'll try that
16:00 nengard also do you want me to add that quote to the title?
16:00 nengard or to the twitter name?
16:00 nengard or both?
16:00 nengard i can't seem to get any of your rss feeds to load up ... might be my computer - or a feed issue? can you see your feeds?
16:01 slef I can see my feeds
16:02 nengard got it
16:02 slef that quote to the end of the bio - plenty of space still
16:02 nengard must hae been a hiccup
16:16 Snow_Fox nuts
16:16 Snow_Fox anyone off the top of there head know where the syspref for the patron reading history for the circ client is
16:17 pianohacker intranetreadinghistory, I think
16:19 Snow_Fox thanks piano
16:19 pianohacker np
16:47 Snow_Fox hey piano could you help me understand how koha displays claims?  It doesnt seem very intuitive
16:48 ricardo Got to go home. Take care everyone!  :)
16:48 pianohacker bype
16:48 pianohacker *bye
16:48 pianohacker Snow_Fox: Not too familiar with the acquisitions or serials modules, but I might be able to help
16:49 Snow_Fox claims in regards to a patron claimed to have returned the book
16:49 Snow_Fox or never checked it out
16:49 pianohacker I don't think Koha currently has a claimed returns system
16:49 Snow_Fox really
16:50 Snow_Fox well that kinda explaisn it
16:50 pianohacker Yup :)
16:50 owen Snow_Fox: How should it work?
16:50 pianohacker I think PTFS added something similar for one of their customers by adding a Claimed Returned lost value and the code to go along with it
16:51 Snow_Fox well basically from what it was explained to me and im not a librarian yet :P is a patron comes in and explains that they returned the book x amount of days etc, we give them 3 forgives so to speak and count those 3 items as lost with no impact to the patron
16:51 pianohacker Should be public here in the next few months
16:52 Snow_Fox granted if theya re found
16:52 Snow_Fox that claim goes away
16:52 Snow_Fox and doesnt count agianst them
16:52 Snow_Fox but we still want a record of how many times a claim has been made
16:53 Snow_Fox currently a roundabout has been figured out
16:53 owen You give them 3 get-out-of-jail-frees and then after that they can't "claim returned" anymore?
16:53 Snow_Fox correct
16:53 jdavidb Snow_Fox: the new code we've got working isn't *all* of that functionality, but it does take care of keeping the claimed item on the patron account until it's found.  We don't have a counter on it, but that wouldn't be terribly hard to implelent.
16:53 Snow_Fox at least i belive thats the way it was explained to me
16:54 owen How would the system differentiate between a staff member finding the book on the shelf and checking it in and the patron bringing it back?
16:54 Snow_Fox jdavidb:  if that counter is kept with the patron and the claimed items were not listed in there checkout history that would be spiffy
16:54 Snow_Fox i think
16:54 owen I'm assuming that in the latter case you'd want to charge them fines
16:55 Snow_Fox im not sure how fines would work in that case
16:55 Snow_Fox ill have to ask the head librarian
16:55 pianohacker I don't think Koha can distinguish between the two for lost books anyway
16:55 jdavidb owen:  our code doesn' the case of staff finding, it gives an alert, and then you've got what you need to cancel the fine manually.  It uses the "This item was lost" message, just like finding a lost item.
16:55 Snow_Fox thats nifty
16:56 Sharon Had anyone else noticed that Carts and Lists in the OPAC only show the 245 $a and not the subtitle?  I'd missed that.
16:56 owen pianohacker: I think what jdavidb says is what I was thinking of: a procedure for handling the two differently
16:56 jdavidb On claims, it stops charging fines as of the day it was claimed...if later returned, it charges fines as if it was overdue by that long.
16:56 Snow_Fox what about the item being listed as checked out under the patron information system
16:56 pianohacker Sharon: I hadn't noticed that. Does it show $n and $p ?
16:56 Sharon Fines are evil - we have a few libraries who charge and they want a lot of improvements
16:57 owen Sharon: display of subtitle has historically been a problematic issue, so I'm not surprised
16:57 Sharon pianohacker No, only the $a
16:57 jdavidb It does still show as checked out, Snow_Fox, but with a nice shiny "Claims Returned" message.
16:57 owen Sharon: most of your libraries do not charge fines?
16:57 Snow_Fox spiffiness
16:57 Snow_Fox ill take one module please :=D
16:57 Sharon Do the cart/lists involve xslt?
16:57 pianohacker The current hack involves linking 245$b to the nonexistent table bibliosubtitle
16:57 owen Sharon: No.
16:57 Snow_Fox is there a way we can keep track of your development jdavid?
16:58 Sharon Should I put up a bug for the cart/list issue?
16:58 jdavidb Snow_Fox: Watch the patches list; we're releasing a *bunch* of stuff for this customer right now.  Either Colin Campbell of PTFS-Eurpoe, or I, will be the ones shipping 'em out.
16:58 owen Sharon: Yes please
16:58 Sharon jdavidb we are drooling over some of Colin's patches
16:58 Snow_Fox cool beans i think you just made a head librarian very happy
16:58 Sharon will do
16:59 owen jdavidb: Do you and PTFS-Europe work closely together?
16:59 jdavidb Colin threw the first big batch over the wall this weekend; we've gotten some really good feedback on them already.
16:59 Snow_Fox so i guess the next logical question is how are patchs handled with liblime?
16:59 Snow_Fox :-p
16:59 owen Snow_Fox: If the patches get approved, they'll show up eventually during your regular updates
16:59 jdavidb owen:  Not as close as one might think, but Colin has been doing a crapload of development stuff in this current go-round.
16:59 Snow_Fox cool
17:00 Snow_Fox thanks guys you all rock
17:00 Snow_Fox food time
17:00 Sharon Bug or enhancement?
17:00 owen Sharon: bug
17:00 Sharon k
17:00 owen jdavidb: It's exciting to see the patches come in. It's *always* exciting to see patches come in! :)
17:00 owen Almost as exciting as seeing patches get approved ;)
17:03 jdavidb owen: indeed.  A few of the ones we've sent have already made it to HEAD, including my bugfix for serials routing slips.   And the feedback he gave on one was insightful...nay, brilliant.  
17:03 jdavidb owen: indeed.  A few of the ones we've sent have already made it to HEAD, including my bugfix for serials routing slips.   And the feedback he gave on one was insightful...nay, brilliant.  o
17:03 jdavidb I'm with you on that, owen.  
17:04 Sharon bug 3455 has now been completed
17:04 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3455 normal, P5, ---,, NEW, Full 245 needs to display in Cart and Lists
17:04 Sharon Owen are you going to bring that up at the meeting next month?
17:05 owen Since the KSF is far from being a reality, let alone having any money, I don't think it's much worth it. :(
17:05 jdavidb Never know, owen; I could win the lottery or something.  Setting up a KSF endowment would not be outside the realm of possibility.
17:07 owen Let us know when you're independently wealthy!
17:07 jdavidb :D  
17:07 jdavidb I'm doing better than I've ever done in my *life,* owen, but I'm not quite to that point yet.  >:)
17:13 jdavidb wb, nengard.
17:16 Sharon Endowments are never out of the realm of possibility.  I would think OS and Koha would be worthy of a bequeath.
17:18 nengard i think we have a big jackpot here - might go buy a ticket :)
17:18 nengard Sharon how do endowments work?
17:19 Sharon rich people give money.  but the foundation has to be established first.  We're in the process of setting up one for the system so small libraries can receive big donations and keep the money out of  their general fund.
17:20 Sharon my library had a woman die and the sale of her land provided over $100,000 in unexpected funds
17:20 nengard good idea with the way lib budgets are
17:20 Sharon actually she wasn't a library patron, but an overall patron of the arts and she thought we were worthy
17:20 Sharon planned giving is big business in urban libraries.  You court people and make sure they have the library in their will.
17:20 nengard off ttopic: i have a pup resting his head on my belly cause of the thunder
17:21 Sharon nengard i'm so thankful my dog is immune to storms, we've had so many lately.  
17:21 nengard beau has zanax for storms!!
17:21 nengard i try not to give it if i can help
17:21 nengard like now
17:24 Sharon what is wworld that vicki attended and twittered about?
17:26 jdavidb 100K is a nice little chunk of money.  The Friends at my old hometown public had about a 50K endowment, that they used the income to send staff to Texas Library Association every year.  Two people, sometimes three, got to go, who wouldn't have.
17:27 nengard sharon - wilsworld in WI
17:27 Sharon live off the KC (mo) PL, the library endowment was started by a 'bum' who lived in a little nasty apartment, but saved up $20,000 and gave it all to the library.
17:27 Sharon thank you
17:27 jdavidb Funding full-timers is a little more expensive...  Need a half-mil or so, bare minimum, to provide for ups and downs in investments.
17:28 Sharon Money is infinite, just need to get some of it filtered in Koha's direction
17:29 gmcharlt Sharon: I don't think the Fed would like that ;)
17:29 gmcharlt but agreed re sending money in the direction of Koha
17:29 jdavidb Sponsoring development is not quite as sexy as an endowment, but with the quantity we're doing right now, it's still pretty darn cool.  
17:30 Sharon funding a foundation that supports Koha can be sexy
17:30 Sharon it's just marketing
17:31 Sharon I'd just delegate it
17:32 jdavidb hee.
17:32 Sharon it's definitely a good idea to pursue, as more libraries (and nations) adopt Koha
17:34 Sharon mozilla's done it, so can we!
17:35 cau0730 education saskatchewan was trying to deteremine if koha was a contender for its library system but decided to not give it a try cause of the problems here.   all because of the last developer here  lol
17:38 jdavidb Sharon:  I agree; a nonprofit foundation, even a minimally-funded one, would give some important stabilizing structure to Koha.  I'm fond of the model used by the Apache SF--companies are not listed there; only people.
17:39 Sharon it came up at kohacon, but maybe it's time for more serious consideration prior to the next kohacon
17:42 Sharon ta people, have to go consult.
18:12 sekjal rargh!  my zebra index is unsearchable!
18:12 pianohacker What error do you get?
18:12 sekjal when I search, no results
18:13 sekjal running, no error
18:13 pianohacker There should be a line in your Koha error log with something like ERROR 109
18:13 pianohacker The number is what'll give you a vague, usually unhelpful hint at what's going on
18:14 sekjal nothing there since a missing favicon error at 10am
18:14 pianohacker Hmm. A search should flood your error log
18:15 sekjal I think this might be related to the authority searching problems I was having earlier
18:16 sekjal for some reason, the record number could not be pulled out of the MARC, and thus threw an error of calling a function on a non-existant object
18:17 sekjal I have a feeling that /var/lib/koha/zebradb/biblios/key should not be empty
18:17 Snow_Fox oh hell :\
18:18 pianohacker sekjal: Does running with the -v flag give you a warning about Local-number ?
18:19 sekjal no, no warnings at all
18:19 sekjal just logs
18:19 pianohacker Hrm.
18:20 sekjal I'm thinking perhaps reinstalling idzebra-2.0
18:31 sekjal that did not help
18:31 sekjal ::grumble::
18:34 sekjal I'm not too sure I'm keen on having an external indexing program.  when it works, its great, but when it doesn't...
18:34 pianohacker Heh
18:34 sekjal maybe my knowledge just needs to increase
18:35 pianohacker zebra doesn't help the process by having unhelpful documentation and strangely laid-out code
18:35 pianohacker However, it's fast and powerful
18:35 sekjal true
18:35 pianohacker Much more so than 2.2 search
18:35 sekjal if someone would give me $50,000, I'd be happy to try using a Native XML database as the backend
18:36 sekjal put the data storage and indexing into the same program
18:36 gmcharlt writing good search engines is *hard* - for all the warts, I'd rather have a good external engine
18:36 pianohacker Could I give you $50,000 _not_ to introduce more XML usage into Koha?
18:37 sekjal not an XML fan, pianohacker?  I keep running into those whenever I start mentioning it
18:38 pianohacker I think it's good for some situations; it just seems to keep getting crammed into usages where it's overly verbose and awkward
18:38 pianohacker If you want an extreme example, take RDF
18:38 Snow_Fox hehe
18:40 sekjal I suppose I can see that
18:40 sekjal other data formats can be much more compact, efficient and user-friendly
18:41 jdavidb on the other hand, a native-XML database would make totally-arbitrary data schema possible.  User-created and modified, with no intervention from programmer or vendor, if the interface was slick enough.
18:42 sekjal that it would
18:42 gmcharlt yay! let a thousand incomptable metadata formats rise!
18:42 pianohacker As oppose to the merely several hundred we have now
18:42 pianohacker *opposed
18:42 jdavidb Part of the current consideration, many times, is "what format can <x> system hold"..this would take that out of the loop.  
18:43 gmcharlt yeah, I'm not disagreeing that ideally Koha should support any arbitrary XML metadata format
18:44 jdavidb It'd take major heart surgery to get it there, though...might be quicker to build from the ground back up.  *groan*
18:44 Snow_Fox you could shove a stick of TNT into the middle
18:44 Snow_Fox and kinda rebuild from peices
18:44 pianohacker *cough* python ILS *cough*
18:44 pianohacker :)
18:45 sekjal my grandpa used to take nitro for his heart... sounds like the same principle
18:45 sekjal only, you know, not
18:45 jdavidb Snow_Fox, that'd almost be what it'd take.  There would be some useful bits away from the MARC data--circulation, maybe some serials bits, screen interface things...but...The biblio table, and biblioitems, and anything that *touches* them, would need rework.
18:46 gmcharlt sekjal: I imagine he was rather relieved to discover that the correspondance went only so far
18:47 sekjal gmcharlt: indeed
18:47 jdavidb Ideally, such a system could use a well-defined DTD, plus one other document to tell it how to *index*, and that'd be all it needed.  That's a reach.
18:48 pianohacker jdavidb: You'd also need XSLT or Perl/Python/whatever scripts to convert it to MARCXML/MODS/DublinCore/etc., if you want interoperability
18:48 sekjal if it used XML Schema, it could store those in the same way as the data itself
18:49 sekjal it could also store the XSLT
18:49 pianohacker It could. It would impede version tracking of those files, though
18:50 jdavidb pianohacker: yeah, crosswalk techniques would be useful to have, too.  Then you could cobble up an OPAC in any sort of flavor you want, as well as import-export methods.
18:50 jdavidb It would allow storage in mixed-formats, too, so you could keep the "original" imported record, and use the crosswalks to create consistent display and indexing.
18:51 sekjal I think it could be set up to handle versions just fine
18:52 sekjal just keep all versions as separate records, with additional metadata indicating their place in the version tree
18:53 sekjal not as slick as Git, true, but it could work
18:53 jdavidb sekjal:  Something like Horizon's table editor?  You can set up records, and display/maintenance forms that are stored in the database, not as code.  Very flexible stuff.
18:53 sekjal jdavidb: never used Horizon, but that sounds right
18:53 jdavidb It's pretty snazzy.
18:57 jdavidb The current passion seems to be dis-integrating the ILS...maybe I'm old-fashioned--or just old--but from a library staffer's perspective, it seems to me it'd be nicer to have One Repository To Go To.  
18:58 sekjal I tend to lean that way, myself
18:59 sekjal now, unfortunately, I must lean over to my reference desk shift.
18:59 sekjal cheers, all
19:00 |Lupin| hi again
19:02 owen Anyone know anything about this?
19:03 owen "vokal has since grown to nearly 30 libraries, all of whom are contributing funds to the consortium to provide additional design and programming services to create a Vermont version of Koha."
19:03 owen
19:03 jdavidb Not one of ours; they may be going it alone.
19:03 owen The phrase "a Vermont version of Koha" has got me a little worried.
19:05 jdavidb Yah.  Sounds like they're going after some (much-needed) work to make it more consortium-suitable...but will we ever see taht?
19:05 owen A response to my comment on that second link said "As we leave our beta testing phase this Fall and feel confident in them, we’ll be sure to release the items we’ve coded."
19:06 owen ...but releasing doesn't necessarily mean incorporating them into the official version
19:07 owen Lots of good work lost
19:07 jdavidb what on earth happened?
19:08 owen I can't remember the library now, but they did a ton of work extending Koha's functionality in the 2.x days
19:09 |Lupin| and then ?
19:09 owen Eventually they submitted it all in one giant chunk, but no one here had the time or Spanish skills to comb through it and figure out how to integrate it into the official version (which has since diverged)
19:09 |Lupin| oh god
19:10 owen I'll be chris would remember more details
19:10 |Lupin| I guess they wanted to wait till their code was mature, that's why hey came up with one big ting ?
19:10 owen I think the core of the problem was that they didn't really have their hearts in participating in the Koha community
19:10 owen They just wanted something that worked for them.
19:11 |Lupin| well
19:11 jdavidb Ah...well, fair enough; it does make it tough on the community to try to integrate such code.  Still kinda stinks, though.
19:11 |Lupin| but even from a "selfish" point of view
19:11 |Lupin| it sounds better to integrate as much as possible
19:11 |Lupin| since it's a way of delegating maintainance...
19:11 Snow_Fox i dunno
19:11 Snow_Fox well
19:12 owen They also eliminated any possibility of upgrading along with new "official" version of Koha
19:12 |Lupin| yeah
19:12 owen I would hate to see the same happen with the Vermont folks.
19:12 |Lupin| that's why the choice does not make much sense tome
19:12 owen At least most of us can speak Vermontish.
19:13 |Lupin| :)
19:13 |Lupin| here the project wI'm working for will produce a modified Koha
19:13 |Lupin| but I'll definitely try to submit as amny things as possible
19:13 wizzyrea vermont wouldn't be the only ones doing that kind of thing
19:13 |Lupin| to keep the difference between the official one and ours as tiny as possible
19:14 wizzyrea yes, this is a subject that I imagine will have lots of discussion very soon.
19:14 wizzyrea on multiple fronts
19:14 |Lupin| maybe people are reluctant to submitting patches because they feel it's more job, which I think is true in the short term...
19:16 jdavidb It *is* more work. And it is more work to code it in a more-general way, so that you *can* submit it.  But the long-term bennies, IMO are much greater.
19:17 |Lupin| jdavidb: I certainly agree with that
19:17 |Lupin| just that some people do not have this understanding, which is IMO too bad
19:18 Snow_Fox anyone here that can help me with email notices?
19:18 Snow_Fox i know i must seems like a needy step child
19:18 |Lupin| Snow_Fox: what's the problem ?
19:22 Snow_Fox wizzy got me lupin
19:22 Snow_Fox thankyou
19:22 jdavidb wizzyrea++
19:22 wizzyrea yay karma!
19:22 Snow_Fox ?
19:22 wizzyrea o no, is munin going away?
19:22 slef owen: you're talking about the argentine fork?
19:23 wizzyrea i will cry, he's a good friend
19:23 slef munin: are you leaving?
19:23 munin slef: I'll give you the answer as soon as RDA is ready
19:23 owen slef: Yes
19:24 slef owen: yeah, early example of the usual problem with stuff that just gets thrown over the wall
19:25 |Lupin| @wounder paris
19:25 munin |Lupin|: I'll give you the answer as soon as RDA is ready
19:25 |Lupin| what's RDA ?
19:25 slef @wunder Wick St Lawrence ENGLAND
19:25 munin slef: Error: No such location could be found.
19:25 slef damn it I can't remember my location :)
19:25 wizzyrea @wunder lawrence, ks
19:26 munin wizzyrea: The current temperature in Channel 6 Downtown, Lawrence, Kansas is 24.9°C (2:25 PM CDT on July 29, 2009). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 51%. Dew Point: 14.0°C. Pressure: 29.87 in 1011.4 hPa (Rising).
19:26 slef @wunder Wick St Lawrence UNITED KINGDOM
19:26 munin slef: Error: No such location could be found.
19:26 slef @wunder Wick St Lawrence UK
19:26 munin slef: Error: No such location could be found.
19:26 slef @wunder
19:26 munin slef: (wunder <US zip code | US/Canada city, state | Foreign city, country>) -- Returns the approximate weather conditions for a given city.
19:26 slef @wunder Wick St Lawrence SOMERSET
19:26 munin slef: Error: No such location could be found.
19:26 slef @wunder Wick St Lawrence, SOMERSET
19:26 munin slef: Error: No such location could be found.
19:26 slef there's something odd... just can't remember what, though
19:26 jdavidb @wunder Bethesda, Maryland
19:26 munin jdavidb: The current temperature in Langley Fork Park, McLean, Virginia is 27.9°C (3:26 PM EDT on July 29, 2009). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 73%. Dew Point: 23.0°C. Pressure: 29.79 in 1008.7 hPa (Falling).
19:27 jdavidb @wunder Bethesda, MD
19:27 munin jdavidb: The current temperature in Langley Fork Park, McLean, Virginia is 27.9°C (3:27 PM EDT on July 29, 2009). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 74%. Dew Point: 23.0°C. Pressure: 29.79 in 1008.7 hPa (Falling).
19:27 slef @wunder Weston-super-Mare, SOMERSET
19:27 munin slef: The current temperature in Weston-Super-Mare, United Kingdom is 15.1°C (8:27 PM BST on July 29, 2009). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 89%. Dew Point: 13.0°C. Pressure: 29.83 in 1010.0 hPa (Steady).
19:27 slef that's it - have to put SOMERSET as the country :-/
19:27 slef yay for UDI
19:27 jdavidb Hmp.  Well.  
19:27 jdavidb @wunder Rockville, maryland
19:28 munin jdavidb: The current temperature in Woodley Gardens, Rockville, Maryland is 27.6°C (3:25 PM EDT on July 29, 2009). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 67%. Dew Point: 21.0°C. Pressure: 29.70 in 1005.6 hPa (Falling).
19:28 |Lupin| @wounder paris
19:28 munin |Lupin|: downloading the Perl source
19:28 slef |Lupin|: no o
19:28 |Lupin| hmm ?
19:28 |Lupin| @under paris
19:28 munin |Lupin|: I suck
19:28 |Lupin| grrrr
19:28 |Lupin| @wunder paris
19:28 munin |Lupin|: Error: No such location could be found.
19:29 |Lupin| hmm
19:29 wizzyrea @wunder Paris, France
19:29 munin wizzyrea: The current temperature in Paris, France is 26.0°C (9:00 PM CEST on July 29, 2009). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 34%. Dew Point: 9.0°C. Pressure: 29.92 in 1013 hPa (Rising).
19:29 |Lupin| :-)
19:30 |Lupin| wizzyrea: already the good effects of you recently accumulated positive karma ? :)
19:30 wizzyrea wahoo!
19:30 rhcl How many munins are there? In the July 2009 issue of LinuxPro Magazine there is an article on Munin, the network monitor.
19:30 Snow_Fox hey is the biblio.timestamp the timestamp when the book was checked out?
19:30 jdavidb @karma wizzyrea
19:30 munin jdavidb: Karma for "wizzyrea" has been increased 14 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 14.
19:30 jdavidb @karma jdavidb
19:30 munin jdavidb: jdavidb has neutral karma.
19:31 wizzyrea jdavidb++
19:31 owen jdavidb is like Switzerland.
19:31 wizzyrea not anymore
19:31 wizzyrea :P
19:31 jdavidb Thanks, wizzyrea!  :D
19:31 wizzyrea well it was bound to happen sometime ^.^
19:32 |Lupin| karma |Lupin|
19:32 |Lupin| @karma |Lupin|
19:32 munin |Lupin|: Karma for "|Lupin|" has been increased 4 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 4.
19:32 jdavidb @karma owen
19:32 munin jdavidb: Karma for "owen" has been increased 31 times and decreased 1 time for a total karma of 30.
19:32 |Lupin| hmm?
19:32 |Lupin| is it possible to see who incremented it ?
19:33 jdavidb Doesn't seem so, at least from the command interface.
19:34 Snow_Fox hey is the biblio.timestamp the timestamp when the book was checked out or does it represent a different value
19:34 |Lupin| Snow_Fox: dunno
19:35 jdavidb issues.timestamp would be that; not sure about biblio.timestamp.
19:35 Snow_Fox issues.timestamp ok
19:35 |Lupin| owen: ah, hman mind... focuses on just one decrease and forgets the 30 ++ ! WE are all like that :)
19:35 Snow_Fox i dont have that in the list
19:35 Snow_Fox for the Item Check out Digest
19:36 owen biblio.timestamp is probably just the last time it was modified
19:36 |Lupin| there is biblio.creationdate for storing when the book has been created
19:37 gmcharlt biblio.timestamp indeed records bib's last modification
19:37 Snow_Fox so would that do the same thing as issue.timestamp
19:37 Snow_Fox or could i sued issue.timestamp even though its not listed to the side
19:38 |Lupin| since this morning (more than 12 hours ago) the mail server at the university here is down and today they coulnd't ifnd anybody to repair it.
19:38 gmcharlt Snow_Fox: no, issues.issuesdate is what you're looking for
19:39 Snow_Fox k but even though thats not listed with the items like bilbio.etc would it still work?
20:09 pianohacker rhcl: Munin's just the local name; it runs supybot
20:13 |Lupin| so even perl fans may run a bot written in Python...
20:14 pianohacker Heh. Galen set it up, I think he uses both :)
20:14 pianohacker Besides, it would be a reach to call some of us perl _fans_
20:14 Snow_Fox ok in regards to checkout notices etc, when apparently i dont have access to all the database values to include in the email is there a way to print the due date and other information in some sort of ugly work around
20:16 owen Snow_Fox: it's not necessarily that you don't have access, but I think there are special steps for some of it
20:17 Snow_Fox i can tell you
20:17 Snow_Fox diddly
20:18 owen It's "items.content" that you need to investigate
20:19 Snow_Fox like in the database?
20:19 Snow_Fox or the manual
20:20 pianohacker Snow_Fox: It's a virtual field, generated by taking certain fields from each item and smushing them together with tabs and newlines
20:20 pianohacker Ugly solution, but it gets the job done
20:20 pianohacker Those "certain fields" can be changed, but only by whoever is setting up the cronjobs
20:21 Snow_Fox ok so if i want my checkout notice to have a date and due date information
20:21 Snow_Fox id have to bug liblime
20:21 pianohacker Ayup
20:21 Snow_Fox pianohacker would you please
20:21 Snow_Fox pickaxe
20:21 Snow_Fox :-P
20:22 pianohacker <shoom>
20:22 pianohacker <whuck>
20:22 Snow_Fox i would think thats close to it
20:22 Snow_Fox kinda a meathy sluck whomp sound
20:23 pianohacker Yup
20:23 pianohacker Interestingly, I'm not hungry anymore
20:23 Snow_Fox good time to diet as any
20:23 Snow_Fox welp time to email beverly i suppose
20:25 pianohacker Snow_Fox: You're part of SEKLS, right? When are you going live?
20:25 Snow_Fox i think oct
20:25 pianohacker cool
20:27 Snow_Fox i dunno anymore :s
20:27 Snow_Fox i guess we will find out when we get there
20:40 wizzyrea no, he's not in SEKLS
20:40 wizzyrea Salina
20:41 pianohacker ah.
20:41 Snow_Fox honestly im not sure which hunk im with
20:41 Snow_Fox were central kansas
20:41 pianohacker CKLS?
20:41 wizzyrea NCKLS, I think
20:41 Snow_Fox guess is as good as mine at this stage :-P
20:41 wizzyrea they're actually separate from any of the kansas consortia
20:41 wizzyrea standalone
20:42 Snow_Fox woo?
20:42 wizzyrea just means you don't have system staff (like me) to hassle, you go direct to LL :P
20:42 chris morning
20:43 wizzyrea chris! Good morning!
20:43 gmcharlt hi chris
20:48 sekjal fixed my zebra issue.  turns out, my intranet and opac directories were owned by root, instead of my koha user
20:48 sekjal whoops
20:48 sekjal I still can't get authorities to search, though
20:48 chris ahhh that't do it
20:48 pianohacker Good morning chris
20:49 sekjal I need to be more rigourous about which account I use to work on what
20:51 sekjal good day, chris.
22:28 Snow_Fox hrm it got quiet
22:46 chris :)
00:11 pianohacker gmcharlt: around?
00:14 Brooke dunno just logged on
00:14 pianohacker Hi, Brooke
00:15 Brooke what's up?
00:15 pianohacker Not much. Coding, enjoying the seattle-esque drenching this part of colorado has gotten these past few days
00:16 Brooke *nod* when it rains it po's
00:16 Kyle Hello I was wondering if someone could help me
00:17 pianohacker Kyle: Sure, what do you need?
00:17 Kyle I am trying to set up Koha for my school I need to buy a label printer
00:17 Kyle Well actually my question is if i need to
00:18 Kyle can i use label sheets in a normal printer?
00:18 pianohacker I _believe_ so, but your quality would depend on the printer
00:18 pianohacker Koha doesn't do anything too special with its labels, just generates a PDF that you print
00:18 Kyle oh cool that helps alot
00:19 Kyle thank you
00:19 pianohacker No problem
00:19 pianohacker What school is this, out of curiosity?
00:20 Kyle The River Academy in Wenatchee Washington
00:21 pianohacker Ah
00:21 Kyle ever heard of it
00:21 Kyle haha i doubt i
00:21 Kyle oops
00:21 Kyle it
00:22 pianohacker No, but I don't live in Washington. You'd think I did given how much rain we've gotten, but...
00:22 Kyle haha just wondering where are you
00:22 pianohacker Colorado, about an hour east of the mountains
00:23 Kyle neat
00:23 Kyle Sorry one more Koha hardware is just barcode scanner printer
00:24 Kyle ?
00:24 pianohacker Pretty much.
00:24 Kyle thats great
00:24 Kyle The school is having money problems so all expenses come out of my pocket
00:25 pianohacker Ouch. If you don't need to integrate your label printer closely with Koha, you might be able to get a cheaper standalone one
00:28 Kyle okay thanks
00:28 Kyle just wondering does koha make spine labels like the ones in a public library
00:28 gmcharlt pianohacker: pong
00:28 pianohacker Kyle: yes
00:29 Kyle im new to the whole irs chat thing how do you put the name next to it?
00:29 pianohacker gmcharlt: Any immediate problems with Joe's highlighting patch? I was going to use the plugin for my prefs project, wondered if there were any glaring reasons it wouldn't be accepted
00:30 pianohacker I think that mibbit should fill in the name if you enter in, say, piano then hit the Tab key
00:30 gmcharlt no, it will be accepted, so feel free to count on the plugin
00:30 pianohacker k, thanks
00:30 Kyle pianohacker: oh thanks
00:31 pianohacker There you go. You don't have to do that on every line if it's just you and someone else chatting
00:31 pianohacker But it's helpful in a busy chatroom
00:31 Kyle i bet
00:31 Kyle oh i g2g
00:31 Kyle thank you for your help
00:32 pianohacker Not a problem
00:32 pianohacker Feel free to ask more either here or on the mailing list
00:32 gmcharlt yes, welcome Kyle
00:50 Kyle pianohacker:  Im back and I have a few more questions
00:50 pianohacker k
00:51 Kyle to enter in a book  will there be tutorials in the program?
00:52 pianohacker Unfortunately, no. You will have to be familiar with MARC cataloging
00:52 Kyle okay
00:53 pianohacker There is an excellent manual I can point you to that will at least help you with Koha cataloging (MARC is another ball of wax, but you should be able to find tutorials for it also)
00:53 pianohacker[…]al/3.0/cataloging
00:55 Kyle oh thank you so much
00:55 pianohacker No problem
00:55 pianohacker Anything else I can help with?
00:56 Kyle for dui decimal system (i have no clue on spelling that one)...
00:56 Kyle will this be entered by koha automatically or will i need to look it up?
00:58 pianohacker You will have to look up and enter dewey decimal numbers yourself
00:58 pianohacker However
00:58 pianohacker You can find many records using Z39.50 searching, which is integrated with Koha
00:58 pianohacker You won't have to enter the full details for every book
00:59 Kyle okay thats all thank you very much you have been very helpful
01:00 Kyle Actually one more question
01:01 pianohacker no prob. See ya
01:01 pianohacker k
01:01 Kyle If I were to start entering books on one computer after our it guy gets  it installed on our server will i be able to transfer these ?
01:05 pianohacker Yes. You could either transfer over the entire database, or just export the records on your computer and import them on the server
01:05 pianohacker Bleh, internet weirdness. Did you get my last message?
01:06 Kyle Yes i did
01:06 Kyle thank you very much
01:06 Kyle thats the most helpful yet
01:11 pianohacker np
01:42 pianohacker Good night
02:05 Jo Chris: you about?
02:12 Jo Celle is doing the Tagalog translations, and is a bit concerned that her progress is not displaying. Her work isn't getting lost but she wonders if she is saving it correctly.
03:14 Amit hi Koha good morning
03:15 Amit hi chirs
04:37 eb_inLibro Hey folks.  Just passing by to say good night :)
05:21 osslabs @wunder New Delhi, India
05:24 munin osslabs: The current temperature in New Delhi, India is 32.0°C (10:30 AM IST on July 30, 2009). Conditions: Haze. Humidity: 62%. Dew Point: 24.0°C. Pressure: 29.62 in 1003 hPa (Steady).
05:49 greenmang0 indradg: good morning
06:01 |Lupin| hello
06:07 Amit hi lupin
06:09 |Lupin| hey Amit
06:14 |Lupin| hello nicolas
06:36 |Lupin| Gutentag kf. Gut geschlafen ? Ausgeruht oder abgebrochen ?
06:44 kf Guten morgen lupin, sehr ausgeruht heute morgen, bin auch ein bisschen später zur Arbeit.
06:50 |Lupin| kf: gut !
06:55 Amit hi kf
06:55 kf hi Amit
07:25 chris evening
07:25 kf hi chris
07:30 |Lupin| hey chris
07:31 chris hi |Lupin| and kf
07:35 hdl_laptop hi chris
07:35 osslabs hi hdl
07:41 |Lupin| hello hdl
07:45 kf hi hdl
08:31 jransom hiya
08:32 |Lupin| hi jransom
08:35 chris heya jo
08:35 chris i figured out what celle is doing wrong
08:35 chris she is doing suggestions
08:36 chris so they need to be reviewed
08:37 jransom ah thanks for that.
08:37 chris she can review them, and in future can just submit straigh
08:37 chris t
08:37 jransom is it clear what she needsto do differently
08:38 jransom ok - I'll let her know.
08:38 jransom is she making good progress?
08:40 jransom just sent you an email reminding you about runing a report for us
08:42 chris i only see one suggestion so far
08:42 jransom so thats the tagalog translations.
08:43 jransom i thought she said she'd done 200+ words
08:43 |Lupin| chris: do you have a few minutes to discuss a design choice with me, please ?
08:43 chris i didnt look very hard jransom
08:44 jransom thats cool.
08:45 chris |Lupin|: sure do
08:46 |Lupin| chris: thanks a lot
08:46 |Lupin| chris: our users have what we call secured readers
08:46 |Lupin| chris: it's a device that lets them read a book
08:47 |Lupin| chris: so each device has a manufacturer, a model id, serial number, a public key that allows us to encrypt a book specifically for that device.
08:47 chris right
08:47 |Lupin| chris: the way I plan to encode this in Koha is to use one extended patron attribute called reader
08:47 chris k
08:48 |Lupin| which is in fact a key refering to another table
08:48 |Lupin| and this second table contains the actual definitions of each secured reader
08:48 |Lupin| chris: does this look reasonable to you ?
08:49 chris yeah that sounds like a good idea
08:50 |Lupin| chris: the only problem is that extended attributes can't really be numbers
08:50 |Lupin| chris: so assume that, given a user one wants to retrieve all the devices she owns, I'm not sure a simple join will work...
08:51 chris hmmm
08:51 chris could you just make them items in your catalogue
08:51 chris and issue them to users
08:52 |Lupin| hmm ?
08:52 chris ie catalogue them, with a special itemtype
08:52 |Lupin| what do you mean ?
08:52 |Lupin| cataloue hardware devices asi if they were books ???
08:52 chris well library catalogues arent just for books
08:52 chris they are for cds, dvds, video, whatever
08:52 chris this is just another format
08:53 chris people have catalogued rooms in koha :-)
08:53 chris its just a catalogue there is no golden rule to say it can only catalogue books
08:53 |Lupin| no it's not a format !
08:54 |Lupin| well I mean a hardware divice and a book are totally different things with different attributes...
08:54 chris exactly
08:54 chris and there is nothign that says koha is just for books
08:54 chris you can catalogue anything with it
08:54 kf we have libraries lending out keys
08:55 kf :)
08:55 |Lupin| so where in Marc would you guys store something like a public key ?
08:56 |Lupin| and if koha can catalogue anything... why not cataloguing the borrowers themseelves ?
08:58 chris cos then you cant issue items to them :)
08:58 chris |Lupin|: in marc21 one of the 9xx local use fields
08:58 |Lupin| chris: ok
08:58 chris as i say, people have catalogued meeting rooms in it
08:59 chris then issued them to people :)
08:59 chris it all depends on what you want to do with it, cataloguing them is just a different approach
08:59 jransom i've logged into Celle's pootle account.
09:00 chris with which used?
09:00 chris user even
09:00 chris cos i think she has made 2.. that might be the problem
09:00 jransom user = Celle
09:00 |Lupin| chris: ok... will have to think about it...
09:01 chris cool
09:01 chris so if you click on the edit link jo
09:01 |Lupin| chris: thanks for the advice! It looks very counter-intuitive to me but well... :)
09:02 chris |Lupin|: as i say it depends on what you want to do with them, if you want to circulate them like you would a book, ie assign them to a user, then why not catalogue them like a book :)
09:03 jransom ok - so i have one that she made a suggestion for..items added to your cart.
09:03 chris jransom: right
09:03 chris see how there is a submit and a suggest button
09:03 chris if she clicks suggest, it goes in like that, and needs someone to click the tick
09:04 chris if she clicks submit, it goes straight in
09:04 chris jransom: do you have the sql for that report?
09:05 jransom no. i see the suggest button
09:05 jransom[…]prog-v-3000000.po
09:05 chris you dont see the submit button?
09:06 chris should have back, skip fuzzy
09:06 chris copy, suggest
09:06 chris and submit
09:08 chris ahhh
09:09 chris she had made one called celle
09:09 chris earlier
09:09 chris i gave that the rigths
09:09 chris the user Celle didnt have submit
09:15 jransom sorry about that
09:15 jransom wretched son is using all the bandwidth i think.
09:15 chris :)
09:15 chris right the problem is
09:15 chris she made a user celle
09:15 chris i gave that the rights
09:15 chris she made one called Celle
09:16 chris that one didnt have submit rights
09:16 chris they both do now
09:16 jransom there you go!
09:16 jransom ok. now, couple of questions.
09:17 jransom she is struggling to find direct translations... for instance we have the word adult
09:17 jransom but they have 4 words for adult
09:17 jransom and ssometimes needs 4 words to describe a single english word.
09:17 jransom and sometimes no equivalent.
09:18 chris yep
09:18 jransom but i guess that is the case withmany languages..
09:18 chris pretty much all
09:18 jransom like Mana doesn't translate with 1 word into english
09:18 chris exactly
09:18 chris it doesnt have to be one word tho
09:19 jransom ok. so best match of a phrase (for want of a better word) whendoing the translation
09:19 jransom now, when the bit to be translated is somethig like : # days in advance
09:19 chris yep
09:19 jransom the translation has to still have the # and then the tagalog phrase right
09:19 chris thats right
09:20 chris if its %s
09:20 chris leave the %s
09:20 jransom ok .. she hasn'tincluded those so i will chat with her about those.
09:20 chris cool
09:20 jransom alrightthats great.
09:20 chris cool, and if you have the sql for that report that would be great
09:20 jransom i pasted the sql into the catalyst ticket system.
09:20 jransom can you access it
09:20 chris sweet
09:20 chris yeah
09:21 chris i cant brain today i have the dumb
09:21 chris looking now
09:21 jransom what kind of grammar is that
09:22 kf chris, time for another question?
09:22 kf we talked about which platform to use for German documentation yesterday and I m unsure whats best
09:23 chris jransom:[…]35398681114584156
09:23 chris kf: ahh right
09:23 kf It seems context/online help comes from the wiki, is this still true? is it possible to add other languages there? I know its in the .po-files also, but promised to ask about it
09:24 chris no, doesnt come from the wiki anymore
09:24 chris its just in the .tmpl files (and hence in the .po)
09:24 kf ok
09:24 jransom Chris: thats great. My favourite tee is: "Slavery got shit done"
09:24 chris heh
09:25 kf problem is: documentation will not only be a translation, but we will want to extend it to explain things differently or for a different workflow
09:25 chris jransom:
09:26 kf same is for user documentation, is it possible to translate nicoles manual in plone?
09:26 chris kf: yes
09:26 chris jransom: translates to "No, I wont diagnose your network problems"
09:27 jransom lol -love it
09:27 chris kf: the help files it might be better to just translate the .tmpl files themselves po doesnt really work for them
09:28 kf so after creating templates from po ovewrite those files with our own?
09:28 chris *nod*
09:28 kf ok
09:28 chris and maybe put the files up at
09:29 kf still not sure if it does make sense for us to translate plone manual :(
09:29 chris
09:29 chris there are sections for templates there
09:29 kf ok
09:30 |Lupin| kf: if it's plone related shouldn't it be in plone itself ?
09:30 kf lupin: sorry, I meant the manual for koha which is inside of plone now
09:30 |Lupin| kf: ah ok
09:31 |Lupin| kf: this is intended to be read by staff client only or also by patrons ?
09:31 kf my problem is, that the documentation for our users wont be a one to one translation of this manuel, perhaps different other more chapters, so I m a bit unhappy with calling it translation
09:32 kf not for patrons, only for staff, one thing is the online-help within koha, the other part is a manual with sreenshots and step by step guides
09:33 |Lupin| kf: the other part is outside of koha because specific to your settings ?
09:35 kf lupin: online help is great, when you know where to go, but there is no directory or search function
09:35 chris hmm
09:35 chris search function
09:35 chris i could do that pretty fast
09:35 kf lupin: so its good if you forget about details, but I think for training you need a manual
09:36 kf and I think you need more screenshots
09:36 kf are there screenshots in online help now? *wonders*
09:37 kf and online help is only for one template, do explain a whole workflow a manual or step by step guide is better
09:39 kf chris++
09:40 |Lupin| kf: well but if all that can interest the community, you may put it on Koha's website, in the contrib section or whereever...
09:41 kf yes, I plan to do that, but I didn't write any documentation yet
09:41 kf we just discussed how to do it and I promised to ask some questions :)
09:42 |Lupin| kf: ok :)
09:43 chris kf: so on the help page it has
09:44 chris add help, close window, edit help
09:44 |Lupin| chris: assuming hardware devices are catalogued, I'm wondering it hte fact that one given book has to be encrypted for one platform can be represented...
09:44 kf yeah, never noticed it before
09:44 chris were you thinking a little search box on there
09:44 kf yes
09:44 chris righto
09:44 kf where does the text go, I add there?
09:45 kf just tried for start page of koha, but got an error message: Cannot write file: '/usr/share/koha/intranet/htdocs/intran​et-tmpl/prog/de-DE/modules/help/.tmpl'
09:45 chris yeah, try for any of the other pages
09:46 chris and the webserver will need to have write permission to the help dir
09:46 |Lupin| :)
09:46 kf Cannot write file: '/usr/share/koha/intranet/htdocs/intranet-tmpl/pr​og/de-DE/modules/help/cataloguing/addbooks.tmpl'
09:46 kf permission problem?
09:46 kf ah ok g
09:47 kf thats great - why did I never see that?
09:47 chris :)
09:48 kf and the editor is nice
09:48 chris kapiti district libraries asked for that feature
09:48 chris got added in hmm 2006/2007
09:48 kf so it has always been there
09:48 |Lupin| :)
09:48 chris well the last 2 years or so yeah
09:48 chris not always :)
09:49 kf you should really update the wiki to tell people online help cant be edited there ;)
09:49 chris there was 7 years it wasnt there :)
09:49 kf always in my personal koha timeline :)
09:49 chris kf: can you do that please?
09:49 kf just checking if there is an option for adding pictures too
09:49 chris you can add html
09:49 kf ok, is there a link I can add?
09:49 chris so yeah, if you put an image somewhere
09:50 chris you could do an <img src etc
09:50 kf thats fine
09:50 |Lupin| hmm bt you'll need to be able to upload the image somehow
09:51 kf yes, it would be nicer to do that inside of koha
09:51 |Lupin| meaning not everybody will be able to add images...probably not a problem for you kf
09:51 kf no, I think we can figure out something, upload with ftp or something
09:51 chris yep
09:52 chris or webdav
09:52 chris or scp
09:52 kf many possibilities :)
09:54 |Lupin| indeed
09:55 kf But I think the a search feature or index would be great additions
09:55 chris index is easy
09:55 chris that just needs someone to make it
09:55 chris ie thats a manual thing
09:55 chris search needs something to reindex the help pages every so often
09:57 kf write an index and then add a link to all help pages?
09:57 chris yep
09:58 kf ok
10:02 kf yeah, dreaming about that too :)
10:03 chris invite me to speak, and i might be able to get work to pay for it :-)
10:05 |Lupin| chris: by "invite" you mean pay fo you to come, or just say that we would be happy to welcome you ?
10:06 kf inviting him for doing a presentation or keynote I think
10:06 chris *nod*
10:07 |Lupin| my organisation is unfortunately too small and too new to organise something
10:10 chris you both missed the first kohacon (in france)
10:10 chris but there will be another one in europe im sure
10:12 jransom Thanks for the report Chris
10:12 chris np
10:12 |Lupin| chris: yeah but I'll probably not be as involved with Koha as know when this happens
10:13 chris you'll just have to keep on sending patches :-)
10:13 |Lupin| chris: paiyed to work on Koha till end of november, after that, finished.
10:13 |Lupin| chris: not sure how much time I will have to do so inmy new life...
10:13 chris we'll get you hooked
10:14 chris its 10.15pm .. no one is paying me at the moment :-) its addictive
10:14 kf :)
10:14 |Lupin| :)
10:14 jransom goodnight Chris, Lupin, Kf
10:15 |Lupin| see you jransom
10:15 kf wrote my todolist for today while watching torchwood yesterday
10:15 kf good night jransom
10:17 kf lunch time bbl
10:17 |Lupin| guten Apetit kf !
10:35 martinmorris hello all, i'm having a difficulty with barcode printing and wondered if there was any advice out there
10:37 Amit hi martinorris
11:20 sarbartha I am trying to install Koha on fedora 10 64 bit. When I run "perl ./Makefile.PL" it gave me some warning :
11:20 sarbartha Warning: prerequisite GD 2.39 not found. Warning: prerequisite HTTP::OAI 3.2 not found. Warning: prerequisite JSON 2.07 not found. Warning: prerequisite Net::Z3950::ZOOM 1.16 not found. Warning: prerequisite PDF::Reuse::Barcode 0.05 not found. Warning: prerequisite Text::Iconv 1.7 not found. Warning: prerequisite XML::SAX::Writer 0.44 not found.
11:20 sarbartha How to install those things?
11:30 sarbartha ok I have solved it.
11:35 sarbartha I can't install Net::Z3950::ZOOM  this module of CPAN even after useing force.
11:42 gmcharlt sarbartha: do you have the requisite YAZ libraries installed?
11:43 |Lupin| hello gmcharlt !
11:43 gmcharlt hi |Lupin|
11:46 kf hi gmcharlt
11:48 sarbartha gmcharlt: It was installed. And i have solved the problem by restarting the terminal. Thanks.
11:48 gmcharlt cool

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