IRC log for #koha, 2009-07-02

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:07 |Lupin| hello !
12:08 |Lupin| librarians around, please ?
12:09 Amit hi lupin
12:10 |Lupin| hi Amit
12:17 kf librarian here
12:27 |Lupin| kf: I was looking for a word
12:27 |Lupin| kf: the name for the acton of taking an old catalogue and importing it in a new system
12:28 kf uh
12:28 kf im German, so this is difficult
12:28 |Lupin| kf: now I know that in french librarians call this retroconversion. Does the sa
12:28 kf do you mean something like migration or conversion?
12:28 |Lupin| kf: now I know that in french librarians call this retroconversion. Does a similar term exist in english ?
12:29 gmcharlt |Lupin|: retrospective conversion, if you mean the process of taking an old card or book catalog and getting MARC records to import into an ILS
12:29 kf retroconversion is also used in Germany
12:29 gmcharlt |Lupin|: also known as "recon" in US English
12:29 kf for cataloging from catalog cards to an electronic system
12:29 |Lupin| kf: yes, migration is the word I'd spontaneously use, bu it seems librarians here in France prefer retroconverson, which looks rather counter-intuitve to me
12:29 kf i would use migration for electronic to electronic catalog
12:30 kf and retroconversion for catalog cards (paper) to electronic catalog
12:31 |Lupin| kf gmcharlt: thanks to both of ou, your explanations are awesome.
12:31 kf youre welcome
12:37 gmcharlt welcome, Koha! did somebody write an AI module recently? ;)
12:38 kf :)
13:32 owen Hi brendan, nice to see you get a couple of mentions in the Library Technology Update today
13:32 brendan thanks owen
13:33 brendan owen - do you have a link handy that you could send along?
13:33 owen http://www.librarytechnology.o[…]285&code=&code=PR
13:34 brendan sweet thanks :)
13:53 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yesterday you said that it is possible in Perl to build a file handle from a scalar. Could you please explain how ?
13:54 gmcharlt |Lupin|: use the IO::Scalar module
13:54 |Lupin| gmcharlt: okay, thanks !
14:16 |Lupin| Invalid indicator "|" forced to blank
14:17 |Lupin| Does tis error message reported by MARC::batch::next tell something to somebody ?
14:21 collum Lupin:  - Last paragraph
14:22 schuster Owen around?
14:22 owen Yes
14:22 |Lupin| collum: thanks !
14:22 schuster thought I would share this quote from a librarian this morning on what we did yesterday "Love them!  Wonderful.... you can see what is happening immediately.  I have just seen at check-in."
14:24 owen Glad to hear it :)
14:24 |Lupin| collum: but actually for Unimarc records these errors could be ignored, right ?
14:26 collum I don't really know anything about Unimarc.  Can someone else confirm?
14:29 moodaepo Export from connexion Client
14:29 moodaepo is that an option in Koha...I haven't checked.
14:30 moodaepo also any option for global change for bibs?
14:32 atz moodaepo: no
14:32 moodaepo no on the global change?
14:33 moodaepo also does koha do a merge on dupe bibs or a whole record replacement?
14:33 atz it can do merge/overlay
14:33 atz so people use export/ MarcEdit/ overlay to do batch changes
14:34 atz i guess that is more like whole record replacement...
14:34 moodaepo ah ok thanks
14:34 atz but using the old record as the starting point, it doesn't look much like that
14:35 moodaepo what about connexion client?
14:35 atz you mean pushing from connexion directly to Koha?  don't think that's been done yet
14:36 moodaepo cool
14:36 atz you can download MARC files from connection and upload them of course
14:36 moodaepo right
14:36 atz and you could use biblios to get the records, and then push from there to Koha
14:38 moodaepo @wunder 56001
14:38 munin moodaepo: The current temperature in MSU Physics Dept, Mankato, Minnesota is 14.8°C (9:30 AM CDT on July 01, 2009). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 89%. Dew Point: 13.0°C. Pressure: 29.88 in 1011.7 hPa (Falling).
14:40 atz connexion integration would be a great project for somebody, using the same API as biblios
14:44 |Lupin| how to se the options for rebuild_nozebra, pls ?
14:48 owen Why am I still getting Bugzilla emails when the CC field changes? I unchecked all the boxes for that option!
14:50 |Lupin| owen: don't know, sorry.
14:58 |Lupin| k, see you in four hours, for the meeting
15:20 hdl_laptop1 owen: maybe you are a bugzilla administrator
15:21 gmcharlt owen: what do your email prefs look like?
15:21 gmcharlt and what's an example bug where you're seeing the CC change emails?
15:22 owen gmcharlt: in "Field/recipient specific options:" I have noting checked in the row for "I want to receive mail when:  The CC field changes "
15:23 owen The most recent example of a message I received was slef adding himself as a CC to [Bug 3378] Renewal policy should match pickup library's policies
15:23 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3378 major, PATCH-Sent, ---,, NEW, Renewal policy should match pickup library's policies
15:27 gmcharlt owen: are you getting CCed on all bugs?
15:28 gmcharlt owen: or to ask the question properly, are you getting notification of CC changes for all bugs, as far as you can tell?
15:29 owen As far as I know...but if I wasn't getting notice of some CC changes I wouldn't know that there were CC changes which I missed :|
15:29 slef oh my - how did it get to 1630 :(
15:30 gmcharlt owen: could you send me the headers from the latest unwanted email?
15:36 gmcharlt owen: the email was sent to, not to you directly
15:37 gmcharlt automatic CC of bug activity to that mailing list
15:37 owen Oh, duh. When I saw the options for controlling CCs I assumed that what it would affect.
15:37 owen Thanks for explaining.
16:05 wizzyrea anybody here know what the unknown values when sorting circ reports by collection code are in circulation reports?
16:13 owen unknown values?
16:14 atz wizzyrea: does it look like "UNKNOWN" or what?
16:15 atz i'd suspect is was the filler for when the code is NULL in the DB, but I don't know
16:19 wizzyrea yea, it says UNKNOWN VALUE
16:21 atz ok, i'm pretty sure that is the placeholder for NULL's
16:22 wizzyrea so... why are they there?
16:22 wizzyrea (can we get rid of them)
16:22 wizzyrea we have like 18
16:22 wizzyrea rows of this
16:22 atz yeah, just add values to the records
16:22 schuster wizzyrea - question -
16:23 wizzyrea so are you sayingg we have 18 instances of empty collection codes?
16:23 schuster When you search for a title and select Edit items at the top do you see the item detail or does it just show edit/delete?
16:23 wizzyrea that we can't see?
16:23 atz wizzyrea: yes, exactly
16:23 wizzyrea which kind of begs the question, if I can't see them, how can i add a value to them?
16:23 atz er... "can't see" i don't get
16:23 schuster Edit the item barcode.
16:24 wizzyrea well they don't show up in the list of collection codes
16:24 slef hrm... does koha3- MARC21 support broader-term linking?
16:24 wizzyrea schuster: sec, lemme look
16:24 atz edit the item itself... shouldn't have anything to do w/ indexing or ccodes
16:24 wizzyrea hm this may require a visual
16:24 slef for subject headings, I mean
16:26 schuster Sorry jumped into the middle of a discussion...  in mysql can you run a query on the table?
16:26 wizzyrea
16:26 slef select * from tablename where constraint;
16:26 wizzyrea yea... about that
16:26 slef any MARC21 gurus in the house?
16:26 wizzyrea we are hosted >.>
16:26 wizzyrea that screencap is from the LL demo
16:27 schuster Ah...  you could run it in the wizard.
16:27 wizzyrea it's the circ report wizard
16:27 wizzyrea our db has 18 rows of UNKNOWN VALUE, all with 0 checkout
16:28 atz wizzyrea: but we're talking about collection codes, not itemtypes right?
16:30 wizzyrea bah, the screencap is correct, we have 18 unknown value itemtypes, and we can't see them in the dropdown when editing items
16:30 wizzyrea so I don't know if they're ghosts or what
16:30 wizzyrea crap we've deleted...
17:05 slef hello Snow_Fox
17:05 slef time check - 1h55 to meeting?
17:17 nicomo @wunder lyon, france
17:17 munin nicomo: The current temperature in Feyzin, Feyzin, France is 30.5°C (7:00 PM CEST on July 01, 2009). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 43%. Dew Point: 16.0°C. Pressure: 29.96 in 1014.4 hPa (Steady).
17:17 nicomo uh, time for fresh beer
17:17 nicomo see ya all
17:18 wizzyrea woot drunken koha meeting!
17:20 owen Not as much fun if each of us is drinking all by ourselves
17:20 wizzyrea but we are virtually together!
17:20 wizzyrea but it is hard to type when you're wasted :P
17:20 wizzyrea now, if we had *video*...
17:23 slef apparently video conferencing less productive than text chat or phones according to a guy who used to work at BT I met at a conference
17:24 slef I should have told davi that and see what he said :)
17:24 slef so much backlog, so little time
17:34 davi maybe you are right, slef
17:35 slef awwww, no arguments?  all I have is a random anecdote from someone I don't have an email address for... it's not a strong argument
17:35 davi however, I would say: "for each situation use the best tool"
17:36 slef true... video conferencing is best for pulling faces at davis
17:36 davi and I agree that by default, chat is the best one, being email the second due to it is less intrusive
17:36 slef any MARC21 smarties about?
17:37 gmcharlt slef: what's your question?
17:38 slef do we have cross-referencing of subjects in MARC21 in Koha?
17:38 davi slef, Video conferencing allow a very quicker interaction, but obviously it is even more intrusive than chat
17:38 slef 1mo... just remembered what I wanted the laptop for
17:38 slef it has some notes on cross-referencing
17:40 |Lupin| hi again, all
17:43 wizzyrea slef: unrelated to koha question: what's a good tweetdeck like client for
17:44 slef wizzyrea: I don't know what tweetdeck is, so I'm ill-qualified to answer that question.
17:47 slef ok, got access to notes on laptop.
17:48 slef gmcharlt: UNIMARC Koha seems to have fields/code for subject name, translation, broader narrower and related terms, use for and replace with.
17:48 slef gmcharlt: IIRC, MARC21 Koha doesn't have all of those and I thought it did, but it may have been in one of my local branches.  Will find the file(s).
17:49 wizzyrea ah, well what do you use to post to
17:50 gmcharlt slef: the MARC21 authority frameworks should have all of the relevant tags defined
17:51 slef wizzyrea: variously emacs-jabber, pidgin, command-line, my website and their website.
17:52 slef wizzyrea: I used to have a firefox extension installed but I've lost it.  Isn't there an Apps link on
17:53 slef no, it's at
17:55 slef gmcharlt: do the output templates and code?  IIRC, last test I only saw See Alsos.
17:55 gmcharlt slef: are you referring to the information that displays when you do an authority heading search?  if so, most of that output is hardcoded
17:56 slef gmcharlt: is that a known bug to fix?
17:56 gmcharlt slef: desirable enhancement, at any rate
17:57 slef gmcharlt: will do. Can you outline how you'd prefer it was done?
17:57 slef I'm assuming/hoping there's some reason why I didn't merge my old code directly.
17:58 gmcharlt slef: the formatting of heading search results should be moved entirely to the templates
17:59 gmcharlt an authority search returns a bunch of authority MARC records, obviously
17:59 gmcharlt from which should be parsed entities like main heading, see also, see also from, translations, etc.
18:05 thd is the meeting one hour from now?
18:05 |Lupin| yes
18:05 thd Is there an agenda posted somewhere??
18:06 slef yes
18:06 slef and top link I think
18:08 |Lupin|[…]etingnotes09jul01 <-- direct link
18:08 slef ta |Lupin| - I don't have working copy-paste from the kitchen :)
18:09 |Lupin| :-)
18:09 |Lupin| nowadays coffee machines should have that !
18:11 thd perhaps slef makes coffee the old fashioned way
18:11 slef thd: I chew the beans and boil the water with a lens
18:12 thd I just drink water.  It is easier :)
18:12 owen Aren't we all fancy with our lens!
18:12 owen I trek 300 miles to the nearest active volcano in search of boiling water.
18:14 slef owen: if I had copy-paste, I'd rework the Four Yorkshiremen sketch now
18:14 Sharon Owen - do you all 'hide' the call number display in the OPAC, especially when it shows the LC call number from the Bib? (Call Number: PS3555.V2126 M48 2004 )
18:14 owen Can you show me an example?
18:15 Sharon http://catalog.nexpresslibrary[…] - 3rd record down
18:16 owen Well, editing your XSL stylesheet is the obvious answer...not the greatest answer if you don't have access to those files
18:16 |Lupin| brb
18:16 atz if it is in an identifiable <span>, then you can use custom CSS
18:17 owen That's the trouble atz, it isn't.
18:17 atz it's a fairly easy enhancement to produce
18:17 owen Which raises the question: should every line that comes out of the XSLT display have a unique ID for this purpose?
18:17 Sharon I'll add it to bugzilla, then.  It's just one of those things that drives me nuts.
18:18 atz owen: yeah, i think that should be a general guideline
18:18 gmcharlt owen: class names, at least
18:18 Sharon Liz isn't here to chime in, but being able to pick and choose what displays would be great.
18:18 gmcharlt owen: unique IDs would be nice, as long as uniqueness was guaranteed
18:18 owen It'd have to be class names for the search results screen
18:19 slef ok, I'm going to grab dinner and return just before the meeting
18:19 owen I just hate to see the XSL option being used but the flexibility of it not being able to be tapped.
18:46 Crusoe hi all
18:46 pianohacker hi, Crusoe
18:47 |Lupin| hi Crusoe
18:57 joetho Tee minus four minutes.
18:57 joetho Ignition sequence.
19:00 gmcharlt howdy folks
19:00 gmcharlt time to get this show on the road
19:00 gmcharlt welcome to the 1/2 July general IRC meeting of the Koha project
19:01 gmcharlt let
19:01 gmcharlt let's start with a show of virtual hands, i.e., roll call
19:01 gmcharlt and ... go!
19:01 pianohacker present
19:01 gmcharlt gmcharlt = Galen Charlton
19:01 slef MJ Ray at
19:01 jdavidb here!
19:01 cait katrin fischer here
19:01 atz Joe Atzberger, LibLime
19:01 pianohacker <-- Jesse Weaver
19:01 wizzyrea wizzyrea= Liz Rea, NEKLS
19:01 jdavidb jdavidb == J. David Bavousett, PTFS.
19:01 danielsweeney danielsweeney = Daniel Sweeney at LibLime
19:01 dbirmingham Chatting
19:01 owen Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library
19:01 sekjal Ian Walls, NYU Health Sciences Libraries
19:01 Colin Colin Campbell (ptfs-europe) here
19:01 brendan Brendan Gallagher - ByWater Solutions
19:02 |Lupin| |Lupin| = Sébastien HInderer
19:02 collum Garry Collum - Kenton County Public Library
19:02 tajoli tajoli == Zeno Tajoli, CILEA (Italy)
19:02 hdl_laptop hi
19:02 schuster David Schuster - Plano ISD
19:02 dbirmingham = David Birmingham, PTFS
19:02 jmr John Rose, PTFS
19:02 marla Marla Rutherford, INCOLSA
19:02 Crusoe Crusoe = Andrei V. Toutoukine (Ivanovo, Russia)
19:02 hdl_laptop hdl : Henri-Damien LAURENT, BibLibre
19:02 joetho Joe Tholen SEKnFIND consortium Southeast Kansas
19:02 MickeyCoalwell Mickey Coalwell NEKLS
19:03 thd Thomas Dukleth
19:03 Sharon Sharon Moreland, NEKLS
19:04 Brooke Hi
19:04 Patmac Patrick Mackeown, Litarena
19:04 gmcharlt ok, thanks all - stragglers, feel free to announce yourselves, but we'll get started with the agenda
19:04 gmcharlt wiki page for this meeting is[…]etingnotes09jul01
19:05 gmcharlt agenda items are
19:05 gmcharlt   1.
19:05 gmcharlt      Update on Roadmap to 3.2
19:05 gmcharlt   2.
19:05 gmcharlt      Update on Koha 3.0 Roadmap
19:05 gmcharlt   3.
19:05 gmcharlt      Follow-up on actions from General Meeting on Wednesday, 3 June 2009
19:05 gmcharlt   4.
19:05 gmcharlt      Addition of ?Skip to content? links in the staff client, as discussed on Koha-devel
19:05 gmcharlt   5.
19:05 gmcharlt      Modification of bulkmarcimport so that it reminds the user to run rebuild_(no)zebra by default and has a switch to disable this.
19:05 gmcharlt first, a quick 3.2 update - relatively same status as last month
19:05 gmcharlt regarding BibLibre's new_acq, WIP branch will be ready soon
19:06 gmcharlt some nits have been identified
19:06 gmcharlt but I think the main blocker for merging it into head
19:06 slef pre-pre-alpha release some time in June 2009?[…]opment:roadmap3.2
19:06 gmcharlt will be adding an ungrade path
19:06 gmcharlt slef: early July now, obviously - holiday activity for me this weekend
19:07 gmcharlt before I drive to my mother-in-law's :)
19:07 slef gmcharlt: any impact on other dates yet?
19:07 slef heh, happy holiday :-/
19:07 gmcharlt slef: no
19:07 Colin It would be useful to see a feature branch real soon now. We have sites who are v. acq concerned
19:07 gmcharlt noted
19:07 gmcharlt I'm also in discussion with hdl_laptop about getting a tree put up with BibLibre's SOPAC and other work
19:08 schuster Sorry clarify WIP branch?
19:08 gmcharlt WIP = work in progress
19:08 hdl_laptop work in progress
19:08 schuster Sorry - librarian hat today.
19:08 hdl_laptop we should do publicize it this week
19:09 gmcharlt snap
19:09 Colin Does the acq work have any hooks for EDI integration?
19:09 hdl_laptop Colin unfortunately no.
19:09 hdl_laptop not at the moment.
19:09 gmcharlt Colin: not specifically, no - note that I believe slef is intrested in the general EDI integration issue
19:09 slef hdl_laptop: please get in touch with davi about EDI integration in a couple of weeks
19:10 |Lupin| is there some doc available somewhere about BibLibre's current works ?
19:10 hdl_laptop there is some on the wiki
19:11 slef |Lupin|: in theory, it should all be in the rfc3.2 wiki pages and enh bugs on
19:11 hdl_laptop But if you are asking about user doc, then answer is no.
19:11 gmcharlt regarding dates, I'll be pushing for a pre-alpha or alpha by end of month - mostly just as another milestone
19:12 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: no no, just an overall description of what you guys aredoing
19:12 hdl_laptop (July )
19:12 gmcharlt in other 3.2 / 3.0 news, I'm working with HDL to ensure that 3.0.x -> 3.2 DBs revs will work correctly
19:13 gmcharlt on the assumption that people may just want to upgrade from 3.0.x to 3.2 rather than install anew ;)
19:13 atz yes, i think i filed a bug on that topic
19:14 cait which release will probably include acq?
19:14 gmcharlt cait: 3.2
19:14 gmcharlt feel free to ask further 3.2 questions, but let's move on to 3.0.x update from hdl_laptop
19:15 schuster Are circulation sounds in 3.2?  Seem I saw that someplace...?
19:15 hdl_laptop Well there has been a bug fix release for 3.0.2 which had 2 major problems.
19:15 gmcharlt schuster: yeah, that patch is floating around and will almost certainly be incorporated
19:16 schuster Small jig done in office...
19:16 wizzyrea Jigs done at NEKLS too
19:16 sekjal is there any way for us to get a preview of the other new functionality of 3.2... course reserves, or the holdings/summary records?
19:17 hdl_laptop I am now working on reconciliation of head upon 3.0.3 so that we can release a "stable" version for every body
19:17 davi hdl_laptop, sure
19:17 slef hdl_laptop: Has 3.0.3 delayed 3.0.4 (was 3) testing at all?
19:17 Brooke hooray for stability
19:18 hdl_laptop sekjal: I think that companies will be able to post their wip trees so that ppl can look at it.
19:18 gmcharlt sekjal: features are still in testing by sponsoring company
19:18 hdl_laptop We still have to find a way to organize.
19:18 gmcharlt sponsoring customer, rather
19:19 wizzyrea (though it might be nice to know who is sponsoring what, maybe they'd let you have a peek)
19:19 hdl_laptop (wip trees on validated features, i mean ;) )
19:19 slef wizzyrea: in theory, it should all be in the rfc wiki pages and enh bugs on
19:20 davi anyway, I way to list then would be great. We could list then at maybe
19:20 davi them*
19:20 pianohacker slef: Now, the next step is to replace you with a munin plugin
19:21 wizzyrea slef: yep. Often the enhancement bugs don't say WHO is doing it, just that they are.
19:21 slef davi: sure, for the ones which are seeking cosponsors.  I should update schuster's wiki instructions with a link to gnuherds
19:21 davi slef, agreed
19:21 slef wizzyrea: it should be marked as assigned to someone
19:22 wizzyrea slef: but it doesn't show who they are doing it for.
19:22 joetho I agree too, and I wonder if enhancements should be entirely separate from bugs.
19:22 Brooke I think so jow
19:22 Brooke joe even
19:22 schuster We had this discussion already and decided to try using for the time being.
19:22 wizzyrea I think we were trying to do a double pronged approach, bugs to show sponsored with accompanying wiki page
19:22 joetho I am aware of that.
19:22 atz enhancements are already "separate enough" from bugs using the ticketing features available
19:22 gmcharlt I've expressed this before, but I prefer that we have a single enhancements & defects database
19:22 schuster At least some of us had this at Koha)09.
19:23 wizzyrea fwiw, it's getting easier :)
19:23 joetho yes, it is
19:24 schuster Currently I think it is hard enough trying to find out what enhancements people are WORKING on let alone what we would like to see.  Ok I'll sit in the corner now with my hands off the keyboard.
19:24 wizzyrea reporters need to be diligent about posting their RFC's
19:24 davi gmcharlt, it the project would use Trac it could both use the ticket feature for bug and for feature request
19:24 wizzyrea <- is guilty of not always doing it. :(
19:25 slef davi: can we finish reviewing/torturing/breaking it before we go advocating it? ;-)
19:25 davi slef, sorry
19:26 slef np... gmcharlt, hdl_laptop, your turn?
19:26 gmcharlt continuing on - relicensing remains open
19:26 gmcharlt backburnered, but clearly the poll should be held at some point soon
19:27 davi slef, it is just that I am almost sure Trac would works for these needs, but it was just a comment
19:27 davi I have a very positive experience using Trac for both bugs, and feature request
19:27 slef davi: I think you're right, but I fear landmines until I try running it.
19:27 gmcharlt I'm not sure where the welcome message issue has gotten to, but we can ping nengard about after the meeting
19:27 slef gmcharlt: are you pinging?
19:28 ricardo Hi everyone
19:28 davi slef, ok
19:28 gmcharlt slef: yes
19:28 ricardo gmcharlt: "Welcome message issue"?
19:28 slef gmcharlt: or I can combine it with another mail
19:28 schuster davi slef - some of us are just figuring out what systems are there now don't change anything!
19:28 slef ricardo: "it's meant to provide a useful set of links and information whenever somebody subscribes to the Koha mailing list"
19:28 slef (quoting gmcharlt from last month)
19:29 ricardo slef: OK. "Welcome message" for mailing list subscriptions. Got it. Thanks  :)
19:29 slef schuster: Change or Die!
19:29 gmcharlt welcome message draft is[…]koha_list_welcome
19:29 schuster Hey...  We just switched from a proprietary ILS give me some time...;)
19:29 gmcharlt y
19:30 slef hehe
19:30 gmcharlt needs more content - everybody should feel free to edit wiki page
19:30 gmcharlt to help nengard out
19:30 Brooke Oooh, hot welcome :)
19:30 Brooke One day, I'll grow up, be civilised, and speak proper Maori
19:31 schuster I'll do my part tomorrow on the edit - then others can edit for correctness!
19:31 gmcharlt I've reminded nengard about it
19:31 gmcharlt in terms of other issues on the agenda
19:31 gmcharlt we have a couple
19:32 gmcharlt first by |Lupin|  - Addition of ?Skip to content? links in the staff client, as discussed on Koha-devel
19:32 gmcharlt |Lupin|: want to start the discussion?
19:32 |Lupin| yep...
19:32 |Lupin| well
19:32 |Lupin| not much more to say that what was in the post
19:33 |Lupin| I'd be interested in hearing what the community thinks...
19:33 gmcharlt (post =[…]rg/msg02322.html)
19:33 |Lupin| in particular does the eature interest people, how much energy is there to do the job...
19:33 thd I am not certain what is actually intended by skip to content.
19:33 |Lupin| gmcharlt: thanks
19:34 owen
19:34 |Lupin| thd: it's a link which would be visible only in browsers that don't use CSS and that, when followed, brings to th real content of the page
19:34 Brooke that would really give us a leg up in terms of accessibility
19:35 pianohacker Hmm. Very quick test says that #doc3 might be a possible target for a Skip to Content link; not sure how many pages have it, but it works on in ie6 and ff3 on linux
19:35 Brooke it would be a labour of love, but well worth it in terms of community value
19:36 jdavidb It would be nice, particularly for the non-CSS browsers.  For CSS-enabled browsers, hide that rascal, since even on eety-beety-netbooks, you don't need it.
19:36 owen #doc3 is not universal
19:36 pianohacker owen: Okay, I wasn't sure
19:36 |Lupin| btw I had the staff client inmind, opac seems already very usable from my point of view
19:36 |Lupin| anyway doc3 is not very clear
19:37 owen The job would require considerable care and specificity in order to ensure each section was being addressed properly
19:37 |Lupin| I'd rather have a #maintcontent
19:37 thd It may also be useful for being especially compliant with good practises for disability access laws which is more than merely good to have.
19:37 owen It's hard to see how this task could be accomplished in any broad manner
19:37 |Lupin| so that ppl realize they have to include it when they do a page
19:37 owen slef: do you have an opinion on this question?
19:37 pianohacker |Lupin|: #doc3 is a preexisting wrapper; I agree that a clearer name would be better, especially if we have to hand-place the anchor for each page
19:38 thd owen: why would it be difficult in a broad manner?
19:38 slef owen: it's a good idea, the edits should be largely scriptable once identified correctly
19:38 slef owen: however, staff client accessibility will probably remain limited by current CSS structure and JS for some time
19:39 |Lupin| I think the staff client has 361 pages
19:39 owen thd, I simply mean that the structure of pages is different enough through the staff client that there are no universally applicable existing IDs to use
19:39 |Lupin| so perhaps once an implementation has been chosen
19:39 |Lupin| we may very well split the job between all of us
19:39 thd Consequently, some real work would be required to do it well.
19:40 |Lupin| actually
19:40 gmcharlt owen: that would make it an opportunity for us to take a look at the page structure and remove unnecessary inconsistencies along the way
19:40 |Lupin| is it right tha t every page has a title such that
19:40 |Lupin| Administration > System preferences ?
19:40 schuster having the opac ADA(American Disability Act) compliant would be of more concern to me than the staff side for future migrators to Koha.
19:41 hdl_laptop My concern is how will we ba able to test and validate ?
19:41 owen schuster: The first step there would be to identify in what ways it is not compliant
19:41 thd schuster:  I suspect that this issue is more about good practise than actual technical compliance.
19:42 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: is it really needed that there is some general validation ? why not just do it and wait till people test and bug reort ?
19:42 hdl_laptop |Lupin|: ****sigh****
19:43 slef ooh look hdl_laptop went a pretty shade of red
19:43 joetho It might be productive to run a few pages through the validator located at www.______________ (I have used it but not for years)
19:43 ricardo slef: LOL
19:43 slef - but we could use tidy to check quicker
19:43 schuster Yeah - I don't like having to be the tester with my live folks...
19:44 hdl_laptop validator is not enough for acessibilité.
19:44 owen[…]ility-california/
19:44 slef hdl_laptop: but necessary foundation
19:44 owen We're already doing the best we can to validate.
19:44 |Lupin| hmm aren't we becoming off-topic, now ?
19:45 |Lupin| I mean, if you guys want to talk about accessibilit (a11y) in general, that's fine, but that was not my concern for this meeting
19:45 joetho I meant "checking accessibility"
19:45 owen I'm not sure |Lupin|, I think the question remains, is it worth undertaking this extensive effort to add an accessibility feature if there are larger accessibility issues to address
19:46 owen ..either simultaneously or before.
19:46 |Lupin| owen: okay
19:46 schuster I'm more for functionality and bug squashing than accessibility on the staff side.  Sorry... my 2 cents.
19:46 |Lupin| well there are some problematic issues I'd say
19:47 gmcharlt schuster: they're not incompatible
19:47 Brooke I would think that the staff opac is the large hurdle
19:47 joetho How about asking developers working on OPAC features and functions to start ghinking about accessibility standards, to be ready for later discussion?
19:47 joetho *thinking
19:47 |Lupin| e.g. adding even patron categories doesn't work without javascript...
19:47 jfk hi hdl_laptop
19:48 hdl_laptop hi jfk
19:48 ricardo joetho: Sounds a good idea to me  :)  If there are some developers that are accessibility-oriented and that have time to start thinking / discussing / acting on accessibility,that could be nice
19:48 jfk i'm sorry for the delay
19:48 owen I think it's unrealistic to have, as our goal, a staff client which works perfectly without javascript.
19:48 slef owen: depends on time frame
19:48 jfk but we have a lot of work and today its impossible to talk
19:48 pianohacker At this point in time, yes, exactly
19:49 jfk i hope this is not a problem, and that we can talk another day
19:49 |Lupin| owen: well I personnall do not ask for that.
19:49 gmcharlt dragging us back to the specific skipnav issue
19:49 jfk is that ok??
19:49 wizzyrea (i'm not saying it shouldn't be a goal, but we work with the technologies we have)
19:49 pianohacker jfk: sure
19:49 gmcharlt y
19:49 |Lupin| owen: I'm just asking for a staff client that works _a bit better_ than the current one
19:49 gmcharlt there are a couple things I think we can decide quickly
19:49 Brooke *nod* and I think we can do a bit better
19:50 slef trouble is, we have been moving further away... but ultimately that's because js-keen developers have had more funding than js-free ones and libraries have not been specifying js-free in their contracts.
19:50 gmcharlt first, styling of the skipnav links
19:50 |Lupin| how about creating a koha-a11y mailing-list where the interested persons could continue the discussion ?
19:50 slef |Lupin|: just put it in koha-devel with a11y in subject until it gets busy enough
19:50 thd Providing alternative functionality for JavaScript only implementations is certainly a more important accessibility issue on the staff side but someone's work on one does not stop others work on the other.
19:50 jfk ohh, hdl_laptop, i'm Juan,
19:50 ricardo |Lupin|: Not sure about that. Why not use Koha-devel? For instance, there's already a Koha-Zebra but it has few traffic  :-S
19:51 jfk you sent an email to Miguel to meet us here on nine o'clock
19:51 gmcharlt and secondly, simply trying some experimental patches
19:51 |Lupin| i'm fine with using Koha-devel
19:51 slef gmcharlt: I'd look to copy on style: make "skip to content" the first link of a first ul of a first div.
19:51 |Lupin| just wanted to avoid annoying ppl not interested in the topic
19:51 pianohacker gmcharlt: How do you mean styling? Just basic positioning?
19:51 gmcharlt pianohacker: yes
19:52 ricardo |Lupin|: Understood and appreciated... Maybe create the list if the topic becomes too ... err... "loud"?
19:52 pianohacker slef: I think that would be #toplevelmenu for most pages, which would probably work quite well
19:52 |Lupin| ricardo: ok
19:53 gmcharlt slef: the looks reasonable to me
19:53 pianohacker As the target of the link, and not the link itself, is the part that is page specific
19:53 gmcharlt pianohacker: yep
19:54 danielsweeney ls
19:54 slef and follow some standard of accesskeys but I can't find the UK one just now
19:55 owen I'm a little concerned about the "unfunded mandate" nature of this proposition
19:55 owen How is this going to get done?
19:55 slef I think 2 = main content is normal, but I can't tell
19:55 gmcharlt |Lupin|: are there any specific pages where a skip-to-content link would be the most useful to you?  that would be good for an experimental patch
19:55 slef owen: seeking co-sponsors, plus best efforts otherwise ;)
19:55 wizzyrea well.. aren't we going to have to fiddle with every template for conversion to Template::Toolkit?
19:55 ricardo gmcharlt: nod
19:56 gmcharlt owen: as far as doing this, as long as we can establish some guidelines, funding and/or patches will depend on people's real interest in this
19:56 slef owen: this stuff is rather like the SQL security slog I did years ago and we didn't get paid fully for that.
19:56 owen Yeah, I remember all the work you did on that
19:56 |Lupin| gmcharlt: perhaps the pages for adding patrons and records with a Z39.50 query ?
19:56 pianohacker We could make a guideline that completely new pages, or major rewrites, have a target for the "Skip to navigation" link
19:56 thd owen:  It may be an unfunded mandate which libraries tend to ignore but there are some legal requirements involved whether funded or not.
19:56 gmcharlt my main concern is making sure that the anchor is put in an include or the equivalent, so that we don't end up with 361 inconsistent skipnav links to fix in the future
19:57 slef owen: IIRC that was a fun new year holiday ;-)
19:57 slef gmcharlt++
19:57 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yeah, might be the right place
19:57 thd s/It/Accessibility in general/
19:58 gmcharlt and one of the pages that |Lupin| suggested would be a good place to hash out the implementation issues
19:58 pianohacker I think |Lupin| has it correct, since the first li in the first ul... etc. is generated by
19:58 owen gmcharlt: So we create a standard link target and add that target to each page
19:58 gmcharlt re using for that purpose, how much of an annoyance is having a skpnav that goes nowhere to users of assitive software?
19:58 slef gmcharlt: sadly typical? ;-)
19:59 owen :D
19:59 slef by the way, firefox users, it's Shift-Alt-accesskey to use accesskeys if you want to try it
19:59 owen Let's duplicate temporarily for use with pages which use the new system
19:59 gmcharlt slef: yeah, doesn't surprise me that it's typical, but do screen readers try jumping to the end of the page if the anchor doesn't exist?
19:59 thd owen: In your link to the Target lawsuit, you also identified a possibility for negative funding.
19:59 slef in theory, shift-alt-0 should give you a list of access keys
19:59 slef so we should also add a page for that
20:00 slef gmcharlt: not that I've seen.  jump to start if anything
20:00 owen Interesting, slef, I hadn't seen that before
20:00 slef owen: there is something ironic about having an accessibility feature stuck on a shift-alt key combo
20:00 slef owen: my mobile phone is better - just press the number
20:01 davi slef, shift-alt-0 works here with bbc
20:01 gmcharlt |Lupin|: are you up to working on a sample patch, maybe with owen's help?
20:01 slef davi: cool. I'd not tried that. 1 should be home, 2 should be skip to main
20:01 |Lupin| gmcharlt: certainly
20:01 slef aha![…]rmation/DG_020463
20:01 |Lupin| gmcharlt: actually I had one almost ready
20:01 slef compare and contrast
20:02 |Lupin| gmcharlt: removed it but not too hard to re-do
20:02 gmcharlt |Lupin|: cool - polish it up and send it to koha-devel, and we'll have something concrete to argue about ;)
20:02 davi slef, on bbc, 1 works, but 2 change to another tab
20:03 |Lupin| gmcharlt: okay
20:03 davi the main one.
20:03 slef gmcharlt: troll ;)
20:03 |Lupin| just one thing
20:03 davi slef, So I would say such usability has a but ;)
20:03 |Lupin| how can the link be made invisible by CSS-capable browsers ?
20:03 davi because changing by tab out of the bbc pages ...
20:04 slef display: none
20:04 thd slef: I worry about accesskeys or similar functionality breaking ordinary browser keyboard shortcuts.
20:04 |Lupin| slef: ok, thanks. NOt a CSS expert.
20:04 slef |Lupin|: although I remember doing it another way some said was better on some sites.
20:04 |Lupin| thd: normally it's up to the user to configure how access-keys are really made available to him, AFAIK.
20:05 gmcharlt so I think we have some kind of resolution on that agenda item
20:05 gmcharlt last is Modification of bulkmarcimport so that it reminds the user to run rebuild_(no)zebra by default and hs a switch to disable this.
20:05 gmcharlt I think that one was also suggested by you, |Lupin| ?
20:05 ricardo gmcharlt: I'm guilty of that one!  ;-)
20:05 thd |Lupin| In a public access library terminal at the library users do not have much choice.
20:06 gmcharlt ah, go ahead ricardo
20:06 |Lupin| thd: ok.
20:06 |Lupin| ah yes
20:06 ricardo gmcharlt: Well... The sa(i)d story is the one reported in Koha mailing list: I ran bulkmarcimport and did not get results for searches (and got strange error messages)
20:06 slef thd: browsers should not be using accesskey combinations for shortcuts they already have.  I don't know any that do.
20:06 |Lupin| sorry I'm late in following the conversation
20:07 |Lupin| braille is quite slow on IRC
20:07 ricardo gmcharlt: |Lupin| kindly remembered me to run rebuild_(no)  and that solved the problem, naturally
20:07 slef |Lupin|: seriously?
20:07 |Lupin| well I think it may save some time to both koha users and developers
20:07 |Lupin| if the bulkmarcmport would instruct the user about what to do
20:07 |Lupin| slef: sure
20:07 ricardo |Lupin|: Right  :)
20:07 sekjal agreed.  for, too
20:08 thd slef: I think that it is similar functionality which has concerned me or when browser shortcuts are disabled by JavaScript libraries.
20:08 ricardo sekjal: Yeah, probably. I just didn't run bulkauthimport yet, eheh
20:08 pianohacker On that topic, does ZOOM/Zebra allow us to display error messages for an empty database or at least a failed connection?
20:08 |Lupin| actually I think I replied the question at least three time since I'm on the list, which is not too long... and I had to ask the same quesiton on the chan
20:08 slef thd: initial test should show if any koha JS libs interfere with these
20:08 wizzyrea yes, it's definitely FAQ worthy
20:09 wizzyrea it's been answered many, many times here as well
20:09 |Lupin| wizzyrea: at least, and given that users almost never ead FAQs...
20:09 gmcharlt I've no objections if somebody wants to do a patch adding such a message to bulkmarcimport, just as long as there's a way to  make the script completely quiet for crontabs
20:09 ricardo If it's just a matter of adding a   print " message "  to the code, I think that I might add it myself (not a Perl guru, by a long shot, but I'm "print" capable!  ;-)
20:10 |Lupin| :)
20:10 gmcharlt of course, there's no guarantee that everybody will actually *read* it
20:10 |Lupin| and a switch to disable it, please
20:10 ricardo gmcharlt: Sure... But at least SOME will  :)
20:10 Brooke gm: you can lead a horse to water...
20:10 schuster Sounds like a good link - FAQ - on the welcome page.
20:10 wizzyrea well I was thinking of the default news items
20:10 wizzyrea actually
20:10 gmcharlt so to toss about another suggestion, why not have an option for bulkmarcimport to automatically call the appropriate indexing job?
20:10 wizzyrea on a fresh install
20:11 wizzyrea because how many people will OOH IT"S INSTALLED and log in right then
20:11 wizzyrea to look around
20:11 wizzyrea before importing anything
20:11 Brooke hooray
20:11 gmcharlt wizzyrea++ # yes, default news makes sense
20:11 Brooke I <3 programmes doing logical things for me
20:11 ricardo gmcharlt: Well... If you always need to do it, yes, I think that's a good idea. Is that always the case?
20:11 gmcharlt ricardo: it's not always the case, but it often is
20:11 wizzyrea is there a reason NOT to do it?
20:11 |Lupin| gmcharlt: may not be enough. If people forget it...
20:11 gmcharlt wizzyrea: yes, there can be during data migrations
20:12 tajoli I think could be an option to swith on the migration
20:12 wizzyrea maybe display and option to g... yea
20:12 Brooke mmmmmm confirmation screen
20:12 |Lupin| gmcharlt: I'm strongly in favour of the warning, because my feeling is that many people using koha do not know what they are doing, and this will be more and more true as koha becomes more and more popular
20:12 ricardo |Lupin|++
20:13 Brooke aww rats, I've been found out
20:13 tajoli We insert the instruction to use it during the INSTALL on
20:13 tajoli ly
20:13 tajoli Sorry, I mean 'only'
20:13 wizzyrea I think there are probably several places it should be noted
20:13 wizzyrea :)
20:13 ricardo Maybe add a option for NOT running rebuild ... and by default run rebuild? There's a problem though... We need an additional switch to define if using Zebra or NoZebra, right?
20:13 |Lupin| tajoli: sometimes ppl will remember to do it he first time, and then forget about it ?
20:13 |Lupin| oh maybe another idea
20:13 pianohacker ricardo: NoZebra syspref
20:14 schuster |Lupin|++ - make sure it is documented well on install instructions...  Have your spouse install it - they will tell you where it doesn't work or it isn't documented well.
20:14 gmcharlt ricardo: well, actually, the indexing job ought to be smart enough to figure out which indexing mode the DBs uses
20:14 |Lupin| is it possible in KOha to detect that perhaps the indexes have not been built
20:14 |Lupin| ?
20:14 ricardo pianohacker: But how do I access "NoZebra" syspref in a command line tool like "bulkmarcimport"? (Just asking... I really don't know)
20:14 |Lupin| if it is, why not add a question in the error message
20:15 |Lupin| such thtat "Did you rebuild your index" ?
20:15 hdl_laptop C4::Context->preference("NoZebraIndex")
20:15 ricardo hdl_laptop: Interesting. Thanks!  :)
20:15 gmcharlt ok, for the immediate term I think I hear ricardo volunteering to try a patch to add the message, and wizzyrea volunteering to update the default news
20:15 joetho Even experts dealing with this every day could use a reminder to rebuild indexes.
20:16 ricardo gmcharlt: I think that you're hearing things...  ;-)
20:16 |Lupin| gmcharlt++
20:16 ricardo OK. I might give it a shot... and quit quickly if I find myself in trouble... But I'll say it, in that case  :)
20:16 gmcharlt ricardo: am I? ;) <ricardo> If it's just a matter of adding a   print " message "  to the code, I think that I might add it myself (not a Perl guru, by a long shot, but I'm "print" capable!  ;-)
20:16 hdl_laptop a good boss is one who de le gates
20:17 wizzyrea I'll look at the default news, sure
20:17 gmcharlt ricardo++
20:17 gmcharlt wizzyrea++
20:17 pianohacker "We love you, we really do! Now go work."
20:17 ricardo gmcharlt:  Darn... "They" are not joking when they say "Everything that you say, *can* and *will* be used against you!"  ;-)
20:17 wizzyrea aside: do you think that the sample news items should be mandatory instead of optional?
20:17 hdl_laptop hehe...
20:17 Brooke hdl: de le gates? Is that French ;)
20:18 hdl_laptop delegation ?
20:18 thd gmcharlt:  I would like to momentarily bring up an issue not on the agenda.
20:18 gmcharlt thd: go ahead
20:18 ricardo (actually I have a "quip" on a something related to bulkmarcimport: rebuild_(no)  but I'll wait for thd question)
20:19 thd no please go ahead ricardo
20:19 thd I am patient
20:19 ricardo thd: LOL! Thanks  :)
20:19 ricardo This would break some compatibility...
20:19 ricardo But I'm annoyed that:
20:19 ricardo  / --help    gives usage
20:19 wizzyrea thinking if you're going to put important stuff in there you probably want to at least make sure people will see it by default.
20:20 ricardo  / --help    returns "Unknown option"
20:20 ricardo (that seems easier to fix)
20:20 ricardo but...
20:20 ricardo "" returns "Must specify -b or -a to reindex bibs or authorities"
20:20 ricardo "" runs right away. Is that normal?
20:21 gmcharlt ricardo: fair point - we should decide on a conventation for command-line argument processing and stick to it
20:21 davi gmcharlt++
20:21 schuster Wizzyrea - link to manual on editing news - maybe link to welcome page on Wiki? or am I on the wrong page?
20:22 schuster gmcharlt++
20:22 davi gmcharlt,  What about create a wiki page for describe the  command-line argument convention?
20:23 ricardo gmcharlt: The problem is... Some people may have already created scripts (for crontab jobs, like you said) already relying on "" running right away  :-S   For "--help" I think we should add "usage" instructions (I don't think that breaks any thing)
20:23 gmcharlt davi: good idea
20:23 gmcharlt ricardo: yeah, adding --help to jobs that don't have it shouldn't break crontabs
20:23 ricardo gmcharlt: right
20:24 ricardo gmcharlt: I may try adding those instructions, *if* they are equal (or very similar) to
20:24 ricardo (for the "--help" switch, I mean)
20:25 gmcharlt ricardo: sounds good
20:25 ricardo ... and then I'd submit a patch  (and you or hdl may ruthlessly reject it!  ;-)
20:25 gmcharlt heh
20:26 ricardo :)
20:26 ricardo thd: Sorry for taking your "turn". Go right ahead!  :)
20:26 davi gmcharlt, Where is located the "Development rules" wiki for the project? We should add there the "command-line argument convertion" subsection. --
20:27 hdl_laptop Coding guidelines
20:27 gmcharlt davi:[…]:codingguidelines
20:28 gmcharlt while we're waiting, product and component is still pending
20:29 ricardo gmcharlt: Hmmm? There is a "Product" field and a "Component" field in What do you mean exactly?
20:30 schuster Sorry gmcharlt don't know if you are asking or telling???
20:30 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: pls go ahed, and thd will be able to speak after
20:30 gmcharlt schuster: telling
20:30 gmcharlt ricardo: among other things, moving non-Koha software bug components to a separate component
20:30 slef hdl_laptop: is bug 3307 solved? widespread?
20:30 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3307 blocker, PATCH-Sent, ---,, ASSIGNED, Unable to search the catalog on the intranet side
20:31 gmcharlt and merging together pre < 2.0 versions
20:31 hdl_laptop slef: it is on 3.0.3
20:31 ricardo gmcharlt: OK, thanks
20:32 ricardo hdl_laptop: Speaking of which, may I submit the small patch described by "Amer Denni" for Bug 2599
20:32 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2599 major, P1, ---,, NEW, Search limits not working for NoZebra
20:32 thd I think that in the interests of time I will defer the issue I had wanted to bring up until later
20:33 davi gmcharlt, I have register my account at the wiki. I will add such wiki section
20:33 schuster Are you proposing to "flag" all < 2.0 tickets as < 2.0 product or < 2. 0 component?
20:33 slef davi: it supports openID
20:33 ricardo slef: LOL!
20:33 hdl_laptop ricardo: please send.
20:33 slef sorry, I'm tired
20:34 gmcharlt schuster: squash the version numbers
20:34 ricardo hdl_laptop: OK. I only could test it in one environment, so feel free to test it in others, if you wish (in fact, I'll be GLAD if you do!)
20:34 davi slef, I do not like openID, it is not secure by design!
20:34 slef davi: it's a wiki, not
20:34 davi it is good for a wiki, because it do not requires security
20:35 schuster So you are proposing to remove those 2 items totally?
20:35 slef davi: ni samopinas :)
20:35 slef erm
20:35 slef davi: ni samopinias :)
20:35 gmcharlt schuster: no, not remove the bugs, just adjust the version number to shorten the drop-down for version numbers when entering new bugs
20:36 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: I have no objection to squashing version numbers.
20:36 ricardo gmcharlt: Fine by me... At least for the really old versions
20:36 gmcharlt OK, we're past 1.5 hours - unless somebody has another burning issue to raise, I suggest we dedicate the rest of the day to watching slef's and davi's OpenID debate
20:36 davi As I do not use OpenID for any serious, I have not created an OpenID account, and I think I will never do, instead I use the same password elsewhere for those things, it is easier :)
20:36 schuster gmcharlt - ok since bugs are version ignorant makes sence.
20:37 tajoli I have new info about documentation of Koha DB level
20:37 schuster I would like to suggest to people to also add items to the RFC or at least an enhancement in especially if you are a programmer working on something.  If you want to do it or remind the person paying you to do it either way...  Helps others in the community.
20:37 gmcharlt tajoli: cool - go ahead
20:37 tajoli We use Schema
20:37 ricardo schuster++
20:38 tajoli SchemaSpy software
20:38 tajoli
20:38 hdl_laptop tajoli++ it is quite good.
20:38 ricardo tajoli: Interesting. I didn't know that one :)
20:38 tajoli And we insert comment on table level
20:39 tajoli and on  columns
20:39 hdl_laptop You should then insert them into kohastructure.
20:39 tajoli Yes, but after installation
20:39 slef gmcharlt: aw, I wanted to sleep :)
20:40 tajoli A first version is here:[…]schemaKoha.tar.gz
20:40 tajoli I have update the wiki page of DB schema[…]elopment:dbschema
20:41 gmcharlt tajoli++
20:41 ricardo tajoli++
20:41 tajoli To use SchemaSpy you need a Mysql with Koha installed
20:41 ricardo (How does one ask the "munin" bot about karma?  :)
20:41 slef @karma ricardo
20:41 munin slef: Karma for "ricardo" has been increased 4 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 4.
20:42 ricardo slef: Thanks!  :)
20:42 ebegin ricardo-- ;)
20:42 ebegin ricardo++
20:42 ricardo ebegin: I was expecting that  ;-)
20:42 gmcharlt heh
20:42 tajoli For relations (the most imporant think) it use FK, indexes, PK and columns with the same name
20:42 ricardo tajoli: Nice
20:43 cait tajoli: looks great
20:44 hdl_laptop hi cait.
20:44 tajoli So in fact it has a problem: the name of colums. For example the name 'id' is use in different table as PK but the tables are not reletad between them
20:45 cait hdl: hi :)
20:45 ricardo tajoli: Hmmm... And does it do that for both MyISAM and InnoDB tables?
20:45 tajoli We plan to have a beta version with more comment on 10 July
20:45 gmcharlt ok, thanks tajoli
20:45 tajoli Now Koha has only InnoDB tables.
20:46 ricardo tajoli: OK. I wasn't sure about that. Thanks. That is a problem then, as you say
20:46 tajoli In MyISAM the FK are not working but you can set them
20:46 gmcharlt we're at 1.75 hours, so I'm calling the meeting closed
20:46 tajoli Probably it could read FK in MYISAM
20:46 gmcharlt I'm calling the next general IRC meeting for first Wednesday of August, i.e., 5 August
20:47 Brooke cool
20:47 gmcharlt thanks, everybody
20:47 ricardo gmcharlt: OK... Is there some agenda for that meeting? One topic that I think will *need* to be addressed / discussed is the translation ... hmmm.. framework (for the SQL, JS files) to remove redundancies and inconsistencies... But it sounds to be a job for a big rewrite in some parts  :(
20:48 ricardo (Maybe there's already a RFC for that, don't know... I must search for it)
20:49 cait add translation for xslt files
20:49 |Lupin| any idea aboutthe time ?
20:49 gmcharlt we can try the time used for the 3 June meeting - 10:00 UTC+0
20:50 ricardo gmcharlt: Sure. For me (in Portugal) that hour is great (it would be 11AM here).
20:50 |Lupin| didn't you want to change the time for each meeting ?
20:51 ricardo cait: Thanks for the additional tip!  :)
20:53 gmcharlt ricardo: started wiki page for next meeting - feel free to add agenda items
20:53 ricardo gmcharlt: You are really good at that "de-le-ga-ting" thing, you know?  ;-)
20:54 ricardo (just kidding, eheh...)
20:54 gmcharlt ricardo++
20:54 |Lupin| anyway
20:54 gmcharlt the link is[…]etingnotes09aug05 , btw
20:55 |Lupin| gmcharlt: thanks a lot for havin run this meeting and having done it so well, it was great
20:55 ricardo |Lupin|++
20:55 ricardo gmcharlt++
20:55 |Lupin| :)
20:55 gmcharlt thanks
20:55 ricardo :)
20:55 Brooke feel free to send me boring Librarian queries, for now, it's Miller time!
20:56 ricardo Brooke: Can't you send me a "Miller" from there to Portugal?  ;-)
20:56 wizzyrea oh man, beer.
20:56 wizzyrea gah, still an hour to go
20:56 ricardo wizzyrea: LOL!
20:57 wizzyrea :)
20:57 wizzyrea the only thing that would make it better would be a pool + beer
20:57 ricardo Speaking of which... It's (late) dinner time (late because this meeting started at 8PM for me, eheh. Take care everyone!
20:57 ricardo wizzyrea++
20:57 ricardo ;-)
20:57 wizzyrea hee ty
20:57 ricardo You're welcome :)
20:57 ricardo (out!)
20:59 |Lupin| btw, is it onpurpose that the chan doens't have a topic ?
21:00 gmcharlt |Lupin|: not particularly, we just don't consistenly have op
21:02 brendan so long #koha folks
21:03 slef bye bye brendan
21:03 brendan enjoy the evening!
21:03 Brooke see ya brendan
21:03 pianohacker gmcharlt: Does munin have a chanserv-like mode?
21:04 Brooke okay for serious, time for me to cook dinner before Ulduar
21:04 slef
21:04 |Lupin| whether has been terribly hot in Paris these dys... Ppl can hardly sleep
21:04 slef neighbouring town but faces the sunset
21:04 gmcharlt pianohacker: yes, it has a ChanServer module
21:04 wizzyrea owen: brilliant blog post
21:05 wizzyrea drat, he's gone
21:05 |Lupin| slef: where are you from again ?
21:06 slef |Lupin|: I'm just north of Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, England
21:06 |Lupin| slef: ok
21:10 schuster wizzyrea - prompted by my stupidity!
21:12 pianohacker wizzyrea: url?
21:12 wizzyrea
21:13 wizzyrea schuster: pff, not stupid. We actually went over kind of the same thing a while back while I was doing jquery/css in the staff client
21:13 wizzyrea he probably figured he'd answered it twice, might as well post it :)
21:15 slef "Nefarious webmasters are likely to swap out the image for something you don’t want to see!"
21:21 davi Initial draft about comand-line conventions added
21:21 davi[…]ument_conventions
21:21 davi Expand it if needed. It just try to be a note to start the discussion
21:23 davi  As proposal of convention rules:  hGNU coding standards, ttp://
21:23 davi h*
21:25 |Lupin| see you later all, time to go sleeping here. bye !
21:28 wizzyrea last seen times = time stamp on the server, right?
21:28 wizzyrea not the time stamp on the client
21:29 gmcharlt @last wizzyrea
21:29 munin gmcharlt: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message (1 more message)
21:29 gmcharlt @seen wizzyrea
21:29 munin gmcharlt: wizzyrea was last seen in #koha 39 seconds ago: <wizzyrea> not the time stamp on the client
21:29 slef oh no, not the time stamp on the client!
21:30 wizzyrea (someone asked, I wanted to give a definitive answer, I assumed server time)
21:30 wizzyrea (well I meant in koha, sillies)
21:30 wizzyrea you know, where there is a list of "last seen"
21:30 gmcharlt wizzyrea: well, @seen is relatively, it appears
21:31 wizzyrea ok, lol
21:31 wizzyrea in koha
21:31 wizzyrea in the item records
21:31 slef server time
21:31 wizzyrea you can look at checkout history
21:31 slef I'd bet that
21:31 wizzyrea ty
21:31 wizzyrea :)
21:31 gmcharlt I get it now
21:31 slef we had much fun with people not setting server timezones in 2.0
21:31 wizzyrea (aside: the last seen columns aren't consistent, they show different things)
21:32 wizzyrea gmcharlt: *giggle*
21:32 slef do *not* get me started on koha date handling :)
21:40 IrmaCalyx good morning/goog night/good bye to 1st appointment of the day. Thanks for the meeting:-)
21:57 chris back
22:08 Jo Moirning Chris
22:08 chris hey jo, ack forgot to email you
22:08 chris 2 secs
22:13 chris off it goes, stats should be in your mailbox soon
22:15 Jo yay - thanks Chris.
22:15 Jo Danny working through them now
22:15 chris cool
22:16 pianohacker Hey chris. What have you been up to?
22:17 chris meetings about keywords for a cuisine website
22:17 chris 9am meeting, meant i had to catch the early bus and miss the irc meeting :(
22:17 chris but ill read back on the transcript
22:18 chris  <-- my friend was here, using their wifi yesterday
22:22 chris oh we have a koha library in hawaii, cool
22:22 pianohacker Yup, Hawaii State Archives
22:24 brendan heya chris
22:24 brendan pianohacker - howdy
22:24 chris hey there brendan
22:24 pianohacker hey brendan
22:24 brendan Sonja just made cookies !  -- happy /me
22:24 chris heh lucky
22:29 brendan is there somewhere to go for vmware images of koha, besides the extension manager?
22:30 brendan just following through kylehall's page now - maybe I'm answering my own questions
22:32 brendan think I'm all good :)
22:32 chris :)
22:34 ricardo Back (kinda...)
22:34 ricardo Hi chris !  :)
22:35 pianohacker Off to meeting, bye all
22:35 chris hiya ricardo :)
22:36 ricardo I'm resuming work in a Virtual Machine running openSUSE 11.0, git and Koha 3.0.x / MASTER branch and 2 databases (one for Koha 3.0.X and the other for MASTER)... The setup is still a bit "mixed up"  :(
00:08 ricardo Sleep time. Take care!
02:43 atz gmcharlt: is kohaspsuggest dead?
02:50 chris what does kohapsuggest do?
02:53 atz it tries to do 2 insanely unrelated things on a totally different db_host:database:user:password:
02:53 chris ahh
02:53 atz (1) get spelling suggestions
02:53 atz (2) log the query
02:54 chris sounds like it should die to me
02:54 atz totally unsupported by the installer, afaict
02:54 atz i think the original is kados code
02:56 chris ahh probably something left over from the dev_week branch
02:57 atz i think zebra effectively destoyed the rationale for such a cumbersome feature
02:58 chris yep
03:00 chris ahh its left over from 2.2.x
03:00 chris[…]ancement-features
03:01 chris[…]ember/006415.html
03:01 atz wow, almost all features that are not working now.
03:02 chris yeah :(
03:02 atz really crappy implementation for spellcheck though... need a whole separate DB?  wtf?
03:02 chris yeah, doing it against the one we already have seems more sensible
03:31 Amit hi chris, brendan
03:31 Amit good morning #koha
03:53 brendan hello amit
03:53 Amit heya brendan
07:33 chris morning europe
07:35 hdl_laptop hi chris
07:37 eiro hello world
07:55 chris hows it going mason?
07:55 chris you staying up there?
07:56 mason naw, werking late - on nightly fines stuff
07:57 chris ahhh
07:57 chris go live is getting close eh
07:57 mason getting there... i have a bunch of useful stuff to commit back, when i get this finished
07:57 hdl_laptop hi mason
07:57 mason yeah
07:57 mason heya hdl
07:58 chris awesome
07:59 mason i just downloaded FF 3.5 last nite, looks good
07:59 chris yeah, nice and fast
08:00 mason i was trying to use its JS profiler on the addbiblio..tmpl jscript
08:01 mason i have to say the save/validate speed of is very fast on my 2ghz lappy
08:03 chris *nod*
08:03 chris even faster with chromium
08:03 mason on deb/ubuntu ?
08:03 chris yep
08:04 chris deb[…]-daily/ppa/ubuntu intrepid main
08:11 mason ok, me off...
09:08 thd chris: are you still awake?
09:08 thd hdl_laptop: you must be awake
09:09 hdl_laptop I am
09:09 chris yep i am
09:09 thd Why are we updating borrowers.dateenrolled as if it is borrowers.datemodified
09:09 thd ?
09:10 chris we are? we shouldn't be
09:10 thd There is no borrowers.datemodified
09:10 chris where is it doing that?
09:11 thd I have not looked to find where the code is doing that yet but the evidence is very good
09:11 thd If you update a patron record, borrowers.dateenrolled changes.
09:13 chris C4::Members is the only place where it is changed
09:16 chris in ModMember
09:20 chris doesnt change it for me
09:20 chris unless i delete the value in the registration date in the form
09:21 chris seems to set it to whatever is in the form for me
09:21 atz possibly if you move the record from deletedborrowers
09:21 chris jeez dont you americans ever sleep? :-)
09:26 thd no apparently not
09:27 thd maybe the report I had been answering is because of user error in modifying a patron record
09:27 chris if they change the date, it certainly changes
09:28 chris that seems to be the behaviour i am seeing
09:29 thd It is certainly called by ModMember for date format wrangling
09:29 chris yep, but whatever is in the form is passed to it
09:31 thd atz made another suggestion about a possible user procedure issue.
09:31 thd 99% of all bugs are user error.
09:31 chris it certainly isnt setting it to be the last modified date, thats for sure
09:32 chris not when editing a borrower
09:32 thd I assumed I was on to something when I found no column for modified date.
09:43 thd chris: I totally misread the report
09:43 thd chris: It was a sort order problem
09:44 thd No I read it right
09:44 thd User error.
09:49 chris pebkac :)
09:49 thd pebkac?
09:51 hdl_laptop problem is between keybord and computer
09:51 chris problem exists between keyboard and chair
09:51 thd yes, I see it warrants a Wikipedia article
10:00 thd Eliminate PEBKAC.  Only machines should be allowed to do data entry.
10:28 Elwell_ thd: take the humans out the loop? how about a nice game of chess?
10:29 chris ill be back
10:30 chris sorry dave i cant do that
10:30 chris etc etc
10:30 chris :)

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