Time Nick Message 12:07 |Lupin| hello ! 12:08 |Lupin| librarians around, please ? 12:09 Amit hi lupin 12:10 |Lupin| hi Amit 12:17 kf librarian here 12:27 |Lupin| kf: I was looking for a word 12:27 |Lupin| kf: the name for the acton of taking an old catalogue and importing it in a new system 12:28 kf uh 12:28 kf im German, so this is difficult 12:28 |Lupin| kf: now I know that in french librarians call this retroconversion. Does the sa 12:28 kf do you mean something like migration or conversion? 12:28 |Lupin| kf: now I know that in french librarians call this retroconversion. Does a similar term exist in english ? 12:29 gmcharlt |Lupin|: retrospective conversion, if you mean the process of taking an old card or book catalog and getting MARC records to import into an ILS 12:29 kf retroconversion is also used in Germany 12:29 gmcharlt |Lupin|: also known as "recon" in US English 12:29 kf for cataloging from catalog cards to an electronic system 12:29 |Lupin| kf: yes, migration is the word I'd spontaneously use, bu it seems librarians here in France prefer retroconverson, which looks rather counter-intuitve to me 12:29 kf i would use migration for electronic to electronic catalog 12:30 kf and retroconversion for catalog cards (paper) to electronic catalog 12:31 |Lupin| kf gmcharlt: thanks to both of ou, your explanations are awesome. 12:31 kf youre welcome 12:37 gmcharlt welcome, Koha! did somebody write an AI module recently? ;) 12:38 kf :) 13:32 owen Hi brendan, nice to see you get a couple of mentions in the Library Technology Update today 13:32 brendan thanks owen 13:33 brendan owen - do you have a link handy that you could send along? 13:33 owen http://www.librarytechnology.org/news.pl??SID=20090701128967285&code=&code=PR 13:34 brendan sweet thanks :) 13:53 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yesterday you said that it is possible in Perl to build a file handle from a scalar. Could you please explain how ? 13:54 gmcharlt |Lupin|: use the IO::Scalar module 13:54 |Lupin| gmcharlt: okay, thanks ! 14:16 |Lupin| Invalid indicator "|" forced to blank 14:17 |Lupin| Does tis error message reported by MARC::batch::next tell something to somebody ? 14:21 collum Lupin: http://www.loc.gov/marc/authority/nlr/nlr.html - Last paragraph 14:22 schuster Owen around? 14:22 owen Yes 14:22 |Lupin| collum: thanks ! 14:22 schuster thought I would share this quote from a librarian this morning on what we did yesterday "Love them! Wonderful.... you can see what is happening immediately. I have just seen at check-in." 14:24 owen Glad to hear it :) 14:24 |Lupin| collum: but actually for Unimarc records these errors could be ignored, right ? 14:26 collum I don't really know anything about Unimarc. Can someone else confirm? 14:29 moodaepo Export from connexion Client 14:29 moodaepo is that an option in Koha...I haven't checked. 14:30 moodaepo also any option for global change for bibs? 14:32 atz moodaepo: no 14:32 moodaepo no on the global change? 14:33 moodaepo also does koha do a merge on dupe bibs or a whole record replacement? 14:33 atz it can do merge/overlay 14:33 atz so people use export/ MarcEdit/ overlay to do batch changes 14:34 atz i guess that is more like whole record replacement... 14:34 moodaepo ah ok thanks 14:34 atz but using the old record as the starting point, it doesn't look much like that 14:35 moodaepo what about connexion client? 14:35 atz you mean pushing from connexion directly to Koha? don't think that's been done yet 14:36 moodaepo cool 14:36 atz you can download MARC files from connection and upload them of course 14:36 moodaepo right 14:36 atz and you could use biblios to get the records, and then push from there to Koha 14:38 moodaepo @wunder 56001 14:38 munin moodaepo: The current temperature in MSU Physics Dept, Mankato, Minnesota is 14.8°C (9:30 AM CDT on July 01, 2009). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 89%. Dew Point: 13.0°C. Pressure: 29.88 in 1011.7 hPa (Falling). 14:40 atz connexion integration would be a great project for somebody, using the same API as biblios 14:44 |Lupin| how to se the options for rebuild_nozebra, pls ? 14:48 owen Why am I still getting Bugzilla emails when the CC field changes? I unchecked all the boxes for that option! 14:50 |Lupin| owen: don't know, sorry. 14:58 |Lupin| k, see you in four hours, for the meeting 15:20 hdl_laptop1 owen: maybe you are a bugzilla administrator 15:21 gmcharlt owen: what do your email prefs look like? 15:21 gmcharlt and what's an example bug where you're seeing the CC change emails? 15:22 owen gmcharlt: in "Field/recipient specific options:" I have noting checked in the row for "I want to receive mail when: The CC field changes " 15:23 owen The most recent example of a message I received was slef adding himself as a CC to [Bug 3378] Renewal policy should match pickup library's policies 15:23 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3378 major, PATCH-Sent, ---, galen.charlton@liblime.com, NEW, Renewal policy should match pickup library's policies 15:27 gmcharlt owen: are you getting CCed on all bugs? 15:28 gmcharlt owen: or to ask the question properly, are you getting notification of CC changes for all bugs, as far as you can tell? 15:29 owen As far as I know...but if I wasn't getting notice of some CC changes I wouldn't know that there were CC changes which I missed :| 15:29 slef oh my - how did it get to 1630 :( 15:30 gmcharlt owen: could you send me the headers from the latest unwanted email? 15:36 gmcharlt owen: the email was sent to koha-bugs@lists.koha.org, not to you directly 15:37 gmcharlt automatic CC of bug activity to that mailing list 15:37 owen Oh, duh. When I saw the options for controlling CCs I assumed that what it would affect. 15:37 owen Thanks for explaining. 16:05 wizzyrea anybody here know what the unknown values when sorting circ reports by collection code are in circulation reports? 16:13 owen unknown values? 16:14 atz wizzyrea: does it look like "UNKNOWN" or what? 16:15 atz i'd suspect is was the filler for when the code is NULL in the DB, but I don't know 16:19 wizzyrea yea, it says UNKNOWN VALUE 16:21 atz ok, i'm pretty sure that is the placeholder for NULL's 16:22 wizzyrea so... why are they there? 16:22 wizzyrea (can we get rid of them) 16:22 wizzyrea we have like 18 16:22 wizzyrea rows of this 16:22 atz yeah, just add values to the records 16:22 schuster wizzyrea - question - 16:23 wizzyrea so are you sayingg we have 18 instances of empty collection codes? 16:23 schuster When you search for a title and select Edit items at the top do you see the item detail or does it just show edit/delete? 16:23 wizzyrea that we can't see? 16:23 atz wizzyrea: yes, exactly 16:23 wizzyrea which kind of begs the question, if I can't see them, how can i add a value to them? 16:23 atz er... "can't see" i don't get 16:23 schuster Edit the item barcode. 16:24 wizzyrea well they don't show up in the list of collection codes 16:24 slef hrm... does koha3- MARC21 support broader-term linking? 16:24 wizzyrea schuster: sec, lemme look 16:24 atz edit the item itself... shouldn't have anything to do w/ indexing or ccodes 16:24 wizzyrea hm this may require a visual 16:24 slef for subject headings, I mean 16:26 schuster Sorry jumped into the middle of a discussion... in mysql can you run a query on the table? 16:26 wizzyrea http://screencast.com/t/qeRmvzEFdkm 16:26 slef select * from tablename where constraint; 16:26 wizzyrea yea... about that 16:26 slef any MARC21 gurus in the house? 16:26 wizzyrea we are hosted >.> 16:26 wizzyrea that screencap is from the LL demo 16:27 schuster Ah... you could run it in the wizard. 16:27 wizzyrea it's the circ report wizard 16:27 wizzyrea our db has 18 rows of UNKNOWN VALUE, all with 0 checkout 16:28 atz wizzyrea: but we're talking about collection codes, not itemtypes right? 16:30 wizzyrea bah, the screencap is correct, we have 18 unknown value itemtypes, and we can't see them in the dropdown when editing items 16:30 wizzyrea so I don't know if they're ghosts or what 16:30 wizzyrea crap we've deleted... 17:05 slef hello Snow_Fox 17:05 slef time check - 1h55 to meeting? 17:17 nicomo @wunder lyon, france 17:17 munin nicomo: The current temperature in Feyzin, Feyzin, France is 30.5°C (7:00 PM CEST on July 01, 2009). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 43%. Dew Point: 16.0°C. Pressure: 29.96 in 1014.4 hPa (Steady). 17:17 nicomo uh, time for fresh beer 17:17 nicomo see ya all 17:18 wizzyrea woot drunken koha meeting! 17:20 owen Not as much fun if each of us is drinking all by ourselves 17:20 wizzyrea but we are virtually together! 17:20 wizzyrea but it is hard to type when you're wasted :P 17:20 wizzyrea now, if we had *video*... 17:23 slef apparently video conferencing less productive than text chat or phones according to a guy who used to work at BT I met at a conference 17:24 slef I should have told davi that and see what he said :) 17:24 slef so much backlog, so little time 17:34 davi maybe you are right, slef 17:35 slef awwww, no arguments? all I have is a random anecdote from someone I don't have an email address for... it's not a strong argument 17:35 davi however, I would say: "for each situation use the best tool" 17:36 slef true... video conferencing is best for pulling faces at davis 17:36 davi and I agree that by default, chat is the best one, being email the second due to it is less intrusive 17:36 slef any MARC21 smarties about? 17:37 gmcharlt slef: what's your question? 17:38 slef do we have cross-referencing of subjects in MARC21 in Koha? 17:38 davi slef, Video conferencing allow a very quicker interaction, but obviously it is even more intrusive than chat 17:38 slef 1mo... just remembered what I wanted the laptop for 17:38 slef it has some notes on cross-referencing 17:40 |Lupin| hi again, all 17:43 wizzyrea slef: unrelated to koha question: what's a good tweetdeck like client for identi.ca? 17:44 slef wizzyrea: I don't know what tweetdeck is, so I'm ill-qualified to answer that question. 17:47 slef ok, got access to notes on laptop. 17:48 slef gmcharlt: UNIMARC Koha seems to have fields/code for subject name, translation, broader narrower and related terms, use for and replace with. 17:48 slef gmcharlt: IIRC, MARC21 Koha doesn't have all of those and I thought it did, but it may have been in one of my local branches. Will find the file(s). 17:49 wizzyrea ah, well what do you use to post to identi.ca? 17:50 gmcharlt slef: the MARC21 authority frameworks should have all of the relevant tags defined 17:51 slef wizzyrea: variously emacs-jabber, pidgin, command-line, my website and their website. 17:52 slef wizzyrea: I used to have a firefox extension installed but I've lost it. Isn't there an Apps link on http://identi.ca 17:53 slef no, it's at http://laconi.ca/trac/wiki/Apps 17:55 slef gmcharlt: do the output templates and code? IIRC, last test I only saw See Alsos. 17:55 gmcharlt slef: are you referring to the information that displays when you do an authority heading search? if so, most of that output is hardcoded 17:56 slef gmcharlt: is that a known bug to fix? 17:56 gmcharlt slef: desirable enhancement, at any rate 17:57 slef gmcharlt: will do. Can you outline how you'd prefer it was done? 17:57 slef I'm assuming/hoping there's some reason why I didn't merge my old code directly. 17:58 gmcharlt slef: the formatting of heading search results should be moved entirely to the templates 17:59 gmcharlt an authority search returns a bunch of authority MARC records, obviously 17:59 gmcharlt from which should be parsed entities like main heading, see also, see also from, translations, etc. 18:05 thd is the meeting one hour from now? 18:05 |Lupin| yes 18:05 thd Is there an agenda posted somewhere?? 18:06 slef yes 18:06 slef http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=irc_meetings and top link I think 18:08 |Lupin| http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=meetingnotes09jul01 <-- direct link 18:08 slef ta |Lupin| - I don't have working copy-paste from the kitchen :) 18:09 |Lupin| :-) 18:09 |Lupin| nowadays coffee machines should have that ! 18:11 thd perhaps slef makes coffee the old fashioned way 18:11 slef thd: I chew the beans and boil the water with a lens 18:12 thd I just drink water. It is easier :) 18:12 owen Aren't we all fancy with our lens! 18:12 owen I trek 300 miles to the nearest active volcano in search of boiling water. 18:14 slef owen: if I had copy-paste, I'd rework the Four Yorkshiremen sketch now 18:14 Sharon Owen - do you all 'hide' the call number display in the OPAC, especially when it shows the LC call number from the Bib? (Call Number: PS3555.V2126 M48 2004 ) 18:14 owen Can you show me an example? 18:15 Sharon http://catalog.nexpresslibrary.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-search.pl?q=metro+girl - 3rd record down 18:16 owen Well, editing your XSL stylesheet is the obvious answer...not the greatest answer if you don't have access to those files 18:16 |Lupin| brb 18:16 atz if it is in an identifiable <span>, then you can use custom CSS 18:17 owen That's the trouble atz, it isn't. 18:17 atz it's a fairly easy enhancement to produce 18:17 owen Which raises the question: should every line that comes out of the XSLT display have a unique ID for this purpose? 18:17 Sharon I'll add it to bugzilla, then. It's just one of those things that drives me nuts. 18:18 atz owen: yeah, i think that should be a general guideline 18:18 gmcharlt owen: class names, at least 18:18 Sharon Liz isn't here to chime in, but being able to pick and choose what displays would be great. 18:18 gmcharlt owen: unique IDs would be nice, as long as uniqueness was guaranteed 18:18 owen It'd have to be class names for the search results screen 18:19 slef ok, I'm going to grab dinner and return just before the meeting 18:19 owen I just hate to see the XSL option being used but the flexibility of it not being able to be tapped. 18:46 Crusoe hi all 18:46 pianohacker hi, Crusoe 18:47 |Lupin| hi Crusoe 18:57 joetho Tee minus four minutes. 18:57 joetho Ignition sequence. 19:00 gmcharlt howdy folks 19:00 gmcharlt time to get this show on the road 19:00 gmcharlt welcome to the 1/2 July general IRC meeting of the Koha project 19:01 gmcharlt let 19:01 gmcharlt let's start with a show of virtual hands, i.e., roll call 19:01 gmcharlt and ... go! 19:01 pianohacker present 19:01 gmcharlt gmcharlt = Galen Charlton 19:01 slef MJ Ray at software.coop 19:01 jdavidb here! 19:01 cait katrin fischer here 19:01 atz Joe Atzberger, LibLime 19:01 pianohacker <-- Jesse Weaver 19:01 wizzyrea wizzyrea= Liz Rea, NEKLS 19:01 jdavidb jdavidb == J. David Bavousett, PTFS. 19:01 danielsweeney danielsweeney = Daniel Sweeney at LibLime 19:01 dbirmingham Chatting 19:01 owen Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library 19:01 sekjal Ian Walls, NYU Health Sciences Libraries 19:01 Colin Colin Campbell (ptfs-europe) here 19:01 brendan Brendan Gallagher - ByWater Solutions 19:02 |Lupin| |Lupin| = Sébastien HInderer 19:02 collum Garry Collum - Kenton County Public Library 19:02 tajoli tajoli == Zeno Tajoli, CILEA (Italy) 19:02 hdl_laptop hi 19:02 schuster David Schuster - Plano ISD 19:02 dbirmingham = David Birmingham, PTFS 19:02 jmr John Rose, PTFS 19:02 marla Marla Rutherford, INCOLSA 19:02 Crusoe Crusoe = Andrei V. Toutoukine (Ivanovo, Russia) 19:02 hdl_laptop hdl : Henri-Damien LAURENT, BibLibre 19:02 joetho Joe Tholen SEKnFIND consortium Southeast Kansas 19:02 MickeyCoalwell Mickey Coalwell NEKLS 19:03 thd Thomas Dukleth 19:03 Sharon Sharon Moreland, NEKLS 19:04 Brooke Hi 19:04 Patmac Patrick Mackeown, Litarena 19:04 gmcharlt ok, thanks all - stragglers, feel free to announce yourselves, but we'll get started with the agenda 19:04 gmcharlt wiki page for this meeting is http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=meetingnotes09jul01 19:05 gmcharlt agenda items are 19:05 gmcharlt 1. 19:05 gmcharlt Update on Roadmap to 3.2 19:05 gmcharlt 2. 19:05 gmcharlt Update on Koha 3.0 Roadmap 19:05 gmcharlt 3. 19:05 gmcharlt Follow-up on actions from General Meeting on Wednesday, 3 June 2009 19:05 gmcharlt 4. 19:05 gmcharlt Addition of ?Skip to content? links in the staff client, as discussed on Koha-devel 19:05 gmcharlt 5. 19:05 gmcharlt Modification of bulkmarcimport so that it reminds the user to run rebuild_(no)zebra by default and has a switch to disable this. 19:05 gmcharlt first, a quick 3.2 update - relatively same status as last month 19:05 gmcharlt regarding BibLibre's new_acq, WIP branch will be ready soon 19:06 gmcharlt some nits have been identified 19:06 gmcharlt but I think the main blocker for merging it into head 19:06 slef pre-pre-alpha release some time in June 2009? http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:development:roadmap3.2 19:06 gmcharlt will be adding an ungrade path 19:06 gmcharlt slef: early July now, obviously - holiday activity for me this weekend 19:07 gmcharlt before I drive to my mother-in-law's :) 19:07 slef gmcharlt: any impact on other dates yet? 19:07 slef heh, happy holiday :-/ 19:07 gmcharlt slef: no 19:07 Colin It would be useful to see a feature branch real soon now. We have sites who are v. acq concerned 19:07 gmcharlt noted 19:07 gmcharlt I'm also in discussion with hdl_laptop about getting a tree put up with BibLibre's SOPAC and other work 19:08 schuster Sorry clarify WIP branch? 19:08 gmcharlt WIP = work in progress 19:08 hdl_laptop work in progress 19:08 schuster Sorry - librarian hat today. 19:08 hdl_laptop we should do publicize it this week 19:09 gmcharlt snap 19:09 Colin Does the acq work have any hooks for EDI integration? 19:09 hdl_laptop Colin unfortunately no. 19:09 hdl_laptop not at the moment. 19:09 gmcharlt Colin: not specifically, no - note that I believe slef is intrested in the general EDI integration issue 19:09 slef hdl_laptop: please get in touch with davi about EDI integration in a couple of weeks 19:10 |Lupin| is there some doc available somewhere about BibLibre's current works ? 19:10 hdl_laptop there is some on the wiki 19:11 slef |Lupin|: in theory, it should all be in the rfc3.2 wiki pages and enh bugs on bugs.koha.org 19:11 hdl_laptop But if you are asking about user doc, then answer is no. 19:11 gmcharlt regarding dates, I'll be pushing for a pre-alpha or alpha by end of month - mostly just as another milestone 19:12 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: no no, just an overall description of what you guys aredoing 19:12 hdl_laptop (July ) 19:12 gmcharlt in other 3.2 / 3.0 news, I'm working with HDL to ensure that 3.0.x -> 3.2 DBs revs will work correctly 19:13 gmcharlt on the assumption that people may just want to upgrade from 3.0.x to 3.2 rather than install anew ;) 19:13 atz yes, i think i filed a bug on that topic 19:14 cait which release will probably include acq? 19:14 gmcharlt cait: 3.2 19:14 gmcharlt feel free to ask further 3.2 questions, but let's move on to 3.0.x update from hdl_laptop 19:15 schuster Are circulation sounds in 3.2? Seem I saw that someplace...? 19:15 hdl_laptop Well there has been a bug fix release for 3.0.2 which had 2 major problems. 19:15 gmcharlt schuster: yeah, that patch is floating around and will almost certainly be incorporated 19:16 schuster 13Small jig done in office... 19:16 wizzyrea Jigs done at NEKLS too 19:16 sekjal is there any way for us to get a preview of the other new functionality of 3.2... course reserves, or the holdings/summary records? 19:17 hdl_laptop I am now working on reconciliation of head upon 3.0.3 so that we can release a "stable" version for every body 19:17 davi hdl_laptop, sure 19:17 slef hdl_laptop: Has 3.0.3 delayed 3.0.4 (was 3) testing at all? 19:17 Brooke hooray for stability 19:18 hdl_laptop sekjal: I think that companies will be able to post their wip trees so that ppl can look at it. 19:18 gmcharlt sekjal: features are still in testing by sponsoring company 19:18 hdl_laptop We still have to find a way to organize. 19:18 gmcharlt sponsoring customer, rather 19:19 wizzyrea (though it might be nice to know who is sponsoring what, maybe they'd let you have a peek) 19:19 hdl_laptop (wip trees on validated features, i mean ;) ) 19:19 slef wizzyrea: in theory, it should all be in the rfc wiki pages and enh bugs on bugs.koha.org 19:20 davi anyway, I way to list then would be great. We could list then at gnuherds.org maybe 19:20 davi them* 19:20 pianohacker slef: Now, the next step is to replace you with a munin plugin 19:21 wizzyrea slef: yep. Often the enhancement bugs don't say WHO is doing it, just that they are. 19:21 slef davi: sure, for the ones which are seeking cosponsors. I should update schuster's wiki instructions with a link to gnuherds 19:21 davi slef, agreed 19:21 slef wizzyrea: it should be marked as assigned to someone 19:22 wizzyrea slef: but it doesn't show who they are doing it for. 19:22 joetho I agree too, and I wonder if enhancements should be entirely separate from bugs. 19:22 Brooke I think so jow 19:22 Brooke joe even 19:22 schuster We had this discussion already and decided to try using bugs.koha.org for the time being. 19:22 wizzyrea I think we were trying to do a double pronged approach, bugs to show sponsored with accompanying wiki page 19:22 joetho I am aware of that. 19:22 atz enhancements are already "separate enough" from bugs using the ticketing features available 19:22 gmcharlt I've expressed this before, but I prefer that we have a single enhancements & defects database 19:22 schuster At least some of us had this at Koha)09. 19:23 wizzyrea fwiw, it's getting easier :) 19:23 joetho yes, it is 19:24 schuster Currently I think it is hard enough trying to find out what enhancements people are WORKING on let alone what we would like to see. Ok I'll sit in the corner now with my hands off the keyboard. 19:24 wizzyrea reporters need to be diligent about posting their RFC's 19:24 davi gmcharlt, it the project would use Trac it could both use the ticket feature for bug and for feature request 19:24 wizzyrea <- is guilty of not always doing it. :( 19:25 slef davi: can we finish reviewing/torturing/breaking it before we go advocating it? ;-) 19:25 davi slef, sorry 19:26 slef np... gmcharlt, hdl_laptop, your turn? 19:26 gmcharlt continuing on - wiki.koha.org relicensing remains open 19:26 gmcharlt backburnered, but clearly the poll should be held at some point soon 19:27 davi slef, it is just that I am almost sure Trac would works for these needs, but it was just a comment 19:27 davi I have a very positive experience using Trac for both bugs, and feature request 19:27 slef davi: I think you're right, but I fear landmines until I try running it. 19:27 gmcharlt I'm not sure where the welcome message issue has gotten to, but we can ping nengard about after the meeting 19:27 slef gmcharlt: are you pinging? 19:28 ricardo Hi everyone 19:28 davi slef, ok 19:28 gmcharlt slef: yes 19:28 ricardo gmcharlt: "Welcome message issue"? 19:28 slef gmcharlt: or I can combine it with another mail 19:28 schuster davi slef - some of us are just figuring out what systems are there now don't change anything! 19:28 slef ricardo: "it's meant to provide a useful set of links and information whenever somebody subscribes to the Koha mailing list" 19:28 slef (quoting gmcharlt from last month) 19:29 ricardo slef: OK. "Welcome message" for mailing list subscriptions. Got it. Thanks :) 19:29 slef schuster: Change or Die! http://www.fastcompany.com/node/52717/print 19:29 gmcharlt welcome message draft is http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=koha_list_welcome 19:29 schuster Hey... We just switched from a proprietary ILS give me some time...;) 19:29 gmcharlt y 19:30 slef hehe 19:30 gmcharlt needs more content - everybody should feel free to edit wiki page 19:30 gmcharlt to help nengard out 19:30 Brooke Oooh, hot welcome :) 19:30 Brooke One day, I'll grow up, be civilised, and speak proper Maori 19:31 schuster I'll do my part tomorrow on the edit - then others can edit for correctness! 19:31 gmcharlt I've reminded nengard about it 19:31 gmcharlt in terms of other issues on the agenda 19:31 gmcharlt we have a couple 19:32 gmcharlt first by |Lupin| - Addition of ?Skip to content? links in the staff client, as discussed on Koha-devel 19:32 gmcharlt |Lupin|: want to start the discussion? 19:32 |Lupin| yep... 19:32 |Lupin| well 19:32 |Lupin| not much more to say that what was in the post 19:33 |Lupin| I'd be interested in hearing what the community thinks... 19:33 gmcharlt (post = http://www.mail-archive.com/koha-devel@lists.koha.org/msg02322.html) 19:33 |Lupin| in particular does the eature interest people, how much energy is there to do the job... 19:33 thd I am not certain what is actually intended by skip to content. 19:33 |Lupin| gmcharlt: thanks 19:34 owen http://soap.stanford.edu/show.php?contentid=56 19:34 |Lupin| thd: it's a link which would be visible only in browsers that don't use CSS and that, when followed, brings to th real content of the page 19:34 Brooke that would really give us a leg up in terms of accessibility 19:35 pianohacker Hmm. Very quick test says that #doc3 might be a possible target for a Skip to Content link; not sure how many pages have it, but it works on moremember.pl in ie6 and ff3 on linux 19:35 Brooke it would be a labour of love, but well worth it in terms of community value 19:36 jdavidb It would be nice, particularly for the non-CSS browsers. For CSS-enabled browsers, hide that rascal, since even on eety-beety-netbooks, you don't need it. 19:36 owen #doc3 is not universal 19:36 pianohacker owen: Okay, I wasn't sure 19:36 |Lupin| btw I had the staff client inmind, opac seems already very usable from my point of view 19:36 |Lupin| anyway doc3 is not very clear 19:37 owen The job would require considerable care and specificity in order to ensure each section was being addressed properly 19:37 |Lupin| I'd rather have a #maintcontent 19:37 thd It may also be useful for being especially compliant with good practises for disability access laws which is more than merely good to have. 19:37 owen It's hard to see how this task could be accomplished in any broad manner 19:37 |Lupin| so that ppl realize they have to include it when they do a page 19:37 owen slef: do you have an opinion on this question? 19:37 pianohacker |Lupin|: #doc3 is a preexisting wrapper; I agree that a clearer name would be better, especially if we have to hand-place the anchor for each page 19:38 thd owen: why would it be difficult in a broad manner? 19:38 slef owen: it's a good idea, the edits should be largely scriptable once identified correctly 19:38 slef owen: however, staff client accessibility will probably remain limited by current CSS structure and JS for some time 19:39 |Lupin| I think the staff client has 361 pages 19:39 owen thd, I simply mean that the structure of pages is different enough through the staff client that there are no universally applicable existing IDs to use 19:39 |Lupin| so perhaps once an implementation has been chosen 19:39 |Lupin| we may very well split the job between all of us 19:39 thd Consequently, some real work would be required to do it well. 19:40 |Lupin| actually 19:40 gmcharlt owen: that would make it an opportunity for us to take a look at the page structure and remove unnecessary inconsistencies along the way 19:40 |Lupin| is it right tha t every page has a title such that 19:40 |Lupin| Administration > System preferences ? 19:40 schuster having the opac ADA(American Disability Act) compliant would be of more concern to me than the staff side for future migrators to Koha. 19:41 hdl_laptop My concern is how will we ba able to test and validate ? 19:41 owen schuster: The first step there would be to identify in what ways it is not compliant 19:41 thd schuster: I suspect that this issue is more about good practise than actual technical compliance. 19:42 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: is it really needed that there is some general validation ? why not just do it and wait till people test and bug reort ? 19:42 hdl_laptop |Lupin|: ****sigh**** 19:43 slef ooh look hdl_laptop went a pretty shade of red 19:43 joetho It might be productive to run a few pages through the validator located at www.______________ (I have used it but not for years) 19:43 ricardo slef: LOL 19:43 slef validator.w3.org - but we could use tidy to check quicker 19:43 schuster Yeah - I don't like having to be the tester with my live folks... 19:44 hdl_laptop validator is not enough for acessibilité. 19:44 owen http://usefularts.us/2008/09/04/target-ada-accessibility-california/ 19:44 slef hdl_laptop: but necessary foundation 19:44 owen We're already doing the best we can to validate. 19:44 |Lupin| hmm aren't we becoming off-topic, now ? 19:45 |Lupin| I mean, if you guys want to talk about accessibilit (a11y) in general, that's fine, but that was not my concern for this meeting 19:45 joetho I meant "checking accessibility" 19:45 owen I'm not sure |Lupin|, I think the question remains, is it worth undertaking this extensive effort to add an accessibility feature if there are larger accessibility issues to address 19:46 owen ..either simultaneously or before. 19:46 |Lupin| owen: okay 19:46 schuster I'm more for functionality and bug squashing than accessibility on the staff side. Sorry... my 2 cents. 19:46 |Lupin| well there are some problematic issues I'd say 19:47 gmcharlt schuster: they're not incompatible 19:47 Brooke I would think that the staff opac is the large hurdle 19:47 joetho How about asking developers working on OPAC features and functions to start ghinking about accessibility standards, to be ready for later discussion? 19:47 joetho *thinking 19:47 |Lupin| e.g. adding even patron categories doesn't work without javascript... 19:47 jfk hi hdl_laptop 19:48 hdl_laptop hi jfk 19:48 ricardo joetho: Sounds a good idea to me :) If there are some developers that are accessibility-oriented and that have time to start thinking / discussing / acting on accessibility,that could be nice 19:48 jfk i'm sorry for the delay 19:48 owen I think it's unrealistic to have, as our goal, a staff client which works perfectly without javascript. 19:48 slef owen: depends on time frame 19:48 jfk but we have a lot of work and today its impossible to talk 19:48 pianohacker At this point in time, yes, exactly 19:49 jfk i hope this is not a problem, and that we can talk another day 19:49 |Lupin| owen: well I personnall do not ask for that. 19:49 gmcharlt dragging us back to the specific skipnav issue 19:49 jfk is that ok?? 19:49 wizzyrea (i'm not saying it shouldn't be a goal, but we work with the technologies we have) 19:49 pianohacker jfk: sure 19:49 gmcharlt y 19:49 |Lupin| owen: I'm just asking for a staff client that works _a bit better_ than the current one 19:49 gmcharlt there are a couple things I think we can decide quickly 19:49 Brooke *nod* and I think we can do a bit better 19:50 slef trouble is, we have been moving further away... but ultimately that's because js-keen developers have had more funding than js-free ones and libraries have not been specifying js-free in their contracts. 19:50 gmcharlt first, styling of the skipnav links 19:50 |Lupin| how about creating a koha-a11y mailing-list where the interested persons could continue the discussion ? 19:50 slef |Lupin|: just put it in koha-devel with a11y in subject until it gets busy enough 19:50 thd Providing alternative functionality for JavaScript only implementations is certainly a more important accessibility issue on the staff side but someone's work on one does not stop others work on the other. 19:50 jfk ohh, hdl_laptop, i'm Juan, 19:50 ricardo |Lupin|: Not sure about that. Why not use Koha-devel? For instance, there's already a Koha-Zebra but it has few traffic :-S 19:51 jfk you sent an email to Miguel to meet us here on nine o'clock 19:51 gmcharlt and secondly, simply trying some experimental patches 19:51 |Lupin| i'm fine with using Koha-devel 19:51 slef gmcharlt: I'd look to copy www.bbc.co.uk on style: make "skip to content" the first link of a first ul of a first div. 19:51 |Lupin| just wanted to avoid annoying ppl not interested in the topic 19:51 pianohacker gmcharlt: How do you mean styling? Just basic positioning? 19:51 gmcharlt pianohacker: yes 19:52 ricardo |Lupin|: Understood and appreciated... Maybe create the list if the topic becomes too ... err... "loud"? 19:52 pianohacker slef: I think that would be #toplevelmenu for most pages, which would probably work quite well 19:52 |Lupin| ricardo: ok 19:53 gmcharlt slef: the bbc.co.uk looks reasonable to me 19:53 pianohacker As the target of the link, and not the link itself, is the part that is page specific 19:53 gmcharlt pianohacker: yep 19:54 danielsweeney ls 19:54 slef and follow some standard of accesskeys but I can't find the UK one just now 19:55 owen I'm a little concerned about the "unfunded mandate" nature of this proposition 19:55 owen How is this going to get done? 19:55 slef I think 2 = main content is normal, but I can't tell 19:55 gmcharlt |Lupin|: are there any specific pages where a skip-to-content link would be the most useful to you? that would be good for an experimental patch 19:55 slef owen: seeking co-sponsors, plus best efforts otherwise ;) 19:55 wizzyrea well.. aren't we going to have to fiddle with every template for conversion to Template::Toolkit? 19:55 ricardo gmcharlt: nod 19:56 gmcharlt owen: as far as doing this, as long as we can establish some guidelines, funding and/or patches will depend on people's real interest in this 19:56 slef owen: this stuff is rather like the SQL security slog I did years ago and we didn't get paid fully for that. 19:56 owen Yeah, I remember all the work you did on that 19:56 |Lupin| gmcharlt: perhaps the pages for adding patrons and records with a Z39.50 query ? 19:56 pianohacker We could make a guideline that completely new pages, or major rewrites, have a target for the "Skip to navigation" link 19:56 thd owen: It may be an unfunded mandate which libraries tend to ignore but there are some legal requirements involved whether funded or not. 19:56 gmcharlt my main concern is making sure that the anchor is put in an include or the equivalent, so that we don't end up with 361 inconsistent skipnav links to fix in the future 19:57 slef owen: IIRC that was a fun new year holiday ;-) 19:57 slef gmcharlt++ 19:57 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yeah, header.inc might be the right place 19:57 thd s/It/Accessibility in general/ 19:58 gmcharlt and one of the pages that |Lupin| suggested would be a good place to hash out the implementation issues 19:58 pianohacker I think |Lupin| has it correct, since the first li in the first ul... etc. is generated by header.inc 19:58 owen gmcharlt: So we create a standard link target and add that target to each page 19:58 gmcharlt re using header.inc for that purpose, how much of an annoyance is having a skpnav that goes nowhere to users of assitive software? 19:58 slef gmcharlt: sadly typical? ;-) 19:59 owen :D 19:59 slef by the way, firefox users, it's Shift-Alt-accesskey to use accesskeys if you want to try it 19:59 owen Let's duplicate header.inc temporarily for use with pages which use the new system 19:59 gmcharlt slef: yeah, doesn't surprise me that it's typical, but do screen readers try jumping to the end of the page if the anchor doesn't exist? 19:59 thd owen: In your link to the Target lawsuit, you also identified a possibility for negative funding. 19:59 slef in theory, shift-alt-0 should give you a list of access keys 19:59 slef so we should also add a page for that 20:00 slef gmcharlt: not that I've seen. jump to start if anything 20:00 owen Interesting, slef, I hadn't seen that before 20:00 slef owen: there is something ironic about having an accessibility feature stuck on a shift-alt key combo 20:00 slef owen: my mobile phone is better - just press the number 20:01 davi slef, shift-alt-0 works here with bbc 20:01 gmcharlt |Lupin|: are you up to working on a sample patch, maybe with owen's help? 20:01 slef davi: cool. I'd not tried that. 1 should be home, 2 should be skip to main 20:01 |Lupin| gmcharlt: certainly 20:01 slef aha! http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/SiteInformation/DG_020463 20:01 |Lupin| gmcharlt: actually I had one almost ready 20:01 slef compare and contrast 20:02 |Lupin| gmcharlt: removed it but not too hard to re-do 20:02 gmcharlt |Lupin|: cool - polish it up and send it to koha-devel, and we'll have something concrete to argue about ;) 20:02 davi slef, on bbc, 1 works, but 2 change to another tab 20:03 |Lupin| gmcharlt: okay 20:03 davi the main one. 20:03 slef gmcharlt: troll ;) 20:03 |Lupin| just one thing 20:03 davi slef, So I would say such usability has a but ;) 20:03 |Lupin| how can the link be made invisible by CSS-capable browsers ? 20:03 davi because changing by tab out of the bbc pages ... 20:04 slef display: none 20:04 thd slef: I worry about accesskeys or similar functionality breaking ordinary browser keyboard shortcuts. 20:04 |Lupin| slef: ok, thanks. NOt a CSS expert. 20:04 slef |Lupin|: although I remember doing it another way some said was better on some sites. 20:04 |Lupin| thd: normally it's up to the user to configure how access-keys are really made available to him, AFAIK. 20:05 gmcharlt so I think we have some kind of resolution on that agenda item 20:05 gmcharlt last is Modification of bulkmarcimport so that it reminds the user to run rebuild_(no)zebra by default and hs a switch to disable this. 20:05 gmcharlt I think that one was also suggested by you, |Lupin| ? 20:05 ricardo gmcharlt: I'm guilty of that one! ;-) 20:05 thd |Lupin| In a public access library terminal at the library users do not have much choice. 20:06 gmcharlt ah, go ahead ricardo 20:06 |Lupin| thd: ok. 20:06 |Lupin| ah yes 20:06 ricardo gmcharlt: Well... The sa(i)d story is the one reported in Koha mailing list: I ran bulkmarcimport and did not get results for searches (and got strange error messages) 20:06 slef thd: browsers should not be using accesskey combinations for shortcuts they already have. I don't know any that do. 20:06 |Lupin| sorry I'm late in following the conversation 20:07 |Lupin| braille is quite slow on IRC 20:07 ricardo gmcharlt: |Lupin| kindly remembered me to run rebuild_(no)zebra.pl and that solved the problem, naturally 20:07 slef |Lupin|: seriously? 20:07 |Lupin| well I think it may save some time to both koha users and developers 20:07 |Lupin| if the bulkmarcmport would instruct the user about what to do 20:07 |Lupin| slef: sure 20:07 ricardo |Lupin|: Right :) 20:07 sekjal agreed. for bulkauthimport.pl, too 20:08 thd slef: I think that it is similar functionality which has concerned me or when browser shortcuts are disabled by JavaScript libraries. 20:08 ricardo sekjal: Yeah, probably. I just didn't run bulkauthimport yet, eheh 20:08 pianohacker On that topic, does ZOOM/Zebra allow us to display error messages for an empty database or at least a failed connection? 20:08 |Lupin| actually I think I replied the question at least three time since I'm on the list, which is not too long... and I had to ask the same quesiton on the chan 20:08 slef thd: initial test should show if any koha JS libs interfere with these 20:08 wizzyrea yes, it's definitely FAQ worthy 20:09 wizzyrea it's been answered many, many times here as well 20:09 |Lupin| wizzyrea: at least, and given that users almost never ead FAQs... 20:09 gmcharlt I've no objections if somebody wants to do a patch adding such a message to bulkmarcimport, just as long as there's a way to make the script completely quiet for crontabs 20:09 ricardo If it's just a matter of adding a print " message " to the code, I think that I might add it myself (not a Perl guru, by a long shot, but I'm "print" capable! ;-) 20:10 |Lupin| :) 20:10 gmcharlt of course, there's no guarantee that everybody will actually *read* it 20:10 |Lupin| and a switch to disable it, please 20:10 ricardo gmcharlt: Sure... But at least SOME will :) 20:10 Brooke gm: you can lead a horse to water... 20:10 schuster Sounds like a good link - FAQ - on the welcome page. 20:10 wizzyrea well I was thinking of the default news items 20:10 wizzyrea actually 20:10 gmcharlt so to toss about another suggestion, why not have an option for bulkmarcimport to automatically call the appropriate indexing job? 20:10 wizzyrea on a fresh install 20:11 wizzyrea because how many people will OOH IT"S INSTALLED and log in right then 20:11 wizzyrea to look around 20:11 wizzyrea before importing anything 20:11 Brooke hooray 20:11 gmcharlt wizzyrea++ # yes, default news makes sense 20:11 Brooke I <3 programmes doing logical things for me 20:11 ricardo gmcharlt: Well... If you always need to do it, yes, I think that's a good idea. Is that always the case? 20:11 gmcharlt ricardo: it's not always the case, but it often is 20:11 wizzyrea is there a reason NOT to do it? 20:11 |Lupin| gmcharlt: may not be enough. If people forget it... 20:11 gmcharlt wizzyrea: yes, there can be during data migrations 20:12 tajoli I think could be an option to swith on the migration 20:12 wizzyrea maybe display and option to g... yea 20:12 Brooke mmmmmm confirmation screen 20:12 |Lupin| gmcharlt: I'm strongly in favour of the warning, because my feeling is that many people using koha do not know what they are doing, and this will be more and more true as koha becomes more and more popular 20:12 ricardo |Lupin|++ 20:13 Brooke aww rats, I've been found out 20:13 tajoli We insert the instruction to use it during the INSTALL on 20:13 tajoli ly 20:13 tajoli Sorry, I mean 'only' 20:13 wizzyrea I think there are probably several places it should be noted 20:13 wizzyrea :) 20:13 ricardo Maybe add a option for NOT running rebuild ... and by default run rebuild? There's a problem though... We need an additional switch to define if using Zebra or NoZebra, right? 20:13 |Lupin| tajoli: sometimes ppl will remember to do it he first time, and then forget about it ? 20:13 |Lupin| oh maybe another idea 20:13 pianohacker ricardo: NoZebra syspref 20:14 schuster |Lupin|++ - make sure it is documented well on install instructions... Have your spouse install it - they will tell you where it doesn't work or it isn't documented well. 20:14 gmcharlt ricardo: well, actually, the indexing job ought to be smart enough to figure out which indexing mode the DBs uses 20:14 |Lupin| is it possible in KOha to detect that perhaps the indexes have not been built 20:14 |Lupin| ? 20:14 ricardo pianohacker: But how do I access "NoZebra" syspref in a command line tool like "bulkmarcimport"? (Just asking... I really don't know) 20:14 |Lupin| if it is, why not add a question in the error message 20:15 |Lupin| such thtat "Did you rebuild your index" ? 20:15 hdl_laptop C4::Context->preference("NoZebraIndex") 20:15 ricardo hdl_laptop: Interesting. Thanks! :) 20:15 gmcharlt ok, for the immediate term I think I hear ricardo volunteering to try a patch to add the message, and wizzyrea volunteering to update the default news 20:15 joetho Even experts dealing with this every day could use a reminder to rebuild indexes. 20:16 ricardo gmcharlt: I think that you're hearing things... ;-) 20:16 |Lupin| gmcharlt++ 20:16 ricardo OK. I might give it a shot... and quit quickly if I find myself in trouble... But I'll say it, in that case :) 20:16 gmcharlt ricardo: am I? ;) <ricardo> If it's just a matter of adding a print " message " to the code, I think that I might add it myself (not a Perl guru, by a long shot, but I'm "print" capable! ;-) 20:16 hdl_laptop a good boss is one who de le gates 20:17 wizzyrea I'll look at the default news, sure 20:17 gmcharlt ricardo++ 20:17 gmcharlt wizzyrea++ 20:17 pianohacker "We love you, we really do! Now go work." 20:17 ricardo gmcharlt: Darn... "They" are not joking when they say "Everything that you say, *can* and *will* be used against you!" ;-) 20:17 wizzyrea aside: do you think that the sample news items should be mandatory instead of optional? 20:17 hdl_laptop hehe... 20:17 Brooke hdl: de le gates? Is that French ;) 20:18 hdl_laptop delegation ? 20:18 thd gmcharlt: I would like to momentarily bring up an issue not on the agenda. 20:18 gmcharlt thd: go ahead 20:18 ricardo (actually I have a "quip" on a something related to bulkmarcimport: rebuild_(no)zebra.pl but I'll wait for thd question) 20:19 thd no please go ahead ricardo 20:19 thd I am patient 20:19 ricardo thd: LOL! Thanks :) 20:19 ricardo This would break some compatibility... 20:19 ricardo But I'm annoyed that: 20:19 ricardo /rebuild_zebra.pl --help gives usage 20:19 wizzyrea thinking if you're going to put important stuff in there you probably want to at least make sure people will see it by default. 20:20 ricardo /rebuild_zebra.pl --help returns "Unknown option" 20:20 ricardo (that seems easier to fix) 20:20 ricardo but... 20:20 ricardo "rebuild_zebra.pl" returns "Must specify -b or -a to reindex bibs or authorities" 20:20 ricardo "rebuild_nozebra.pl" runs right away. Is that normal? 20:21 gmcharlt ricardo: fair point - we should decide on a conventation for command-line argument processing and stick to it 20:21 davi gmcharlt++ 20:21 schuster Wizzyrea - link to manual on editing news - maybe link to welcome page on Wiki? or am I on the wrong page? 20:22 schuster gmcharlt++ 20:22 davi gmcharlt, What about create a wiki page for describe the command-line argument convention? 20:23 ricardo gmcharlt: The problem is... Some people may have already created scripts (for crontab jobs, like you said) already relying on "rebuild_nozebra.pl" running right away :-S For "--help" I think we should add "usage" instructions (I don't think that breaks any thing) 20:23 gmcharlt davi: good idea 20:23 gmcharlt ricardo: yeah, adding --help to jobs that don't have it shouldn't break crontabs 20:23 ricardo gmcharlt: right 20:24 ricardo gmcharlt: I may try adding those instructions, *if* they are equal (or very similar) to rebuild_zebra.pl 20:24 ricardo (for the "--help" switch, I mean) 20:25 gmcharlt ricardo: sounds good 20:25 ricardo ... and then I'd submit a patch (and you or hdl may ruthlessly reject it! ;-) 20:25 gmcharlt heh 20:26 ricardo :) 20:26 ricardo thd: Sorry for taking your "turn". Go right ahead! :) 20:26 davi gmcharlt, Where is located the "Development rules" wiki for the project? We should add there the "command-line argument convertion" subsection. -- http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php#developer_links 20:27 hdl_laptop Coding guidelines 20:27 gmcharlt davi: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:development:codingguidelines 20:28 gmcharlt while we're waiting, bugs.koha.org product and component is still pending 20:29 ricardo gmcharlt: Hmmm? There is a "Product" field and a "Component" field in bugs.koha.org... What do you mean exactly? 20:30 schuster Sorry gmcharlt don't know if you are asking or telling??? 20:30 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: pls go ahed, and thd will be able to speak after 20:30 gmcharlt schuster: telling 20:30 gmcharlt ricardo: among other things, moving non-Koha software bug components to a separate component 20:30 slef hdl_laptop: is bug 3307 solved? widespread? 20:30 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3307 blocker, PATCH-Sent, ---, jeanandre.santoni@biblibre.com, ASSIGNED, Unable to search the catalog on the intranet side 20:31 gmcharlt and merging together pre < 2.0 versions 20:31 hdl_laptop slef: it is on 3.0.3 20:31 ricardo gmcharlt: OK, thanks 20:32 ricardo hdl_laptop: Speaking of which, may I submit the small patch described by "Amer Denni" for Bug 2599 20:32 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2599 major, P1, ---, henridamien@koha-fr.org, NEW, Search limits not working for NoZebra 20:32 thd I think that in the interests of time I will defer the issue I had wanted to bring up until later 20:33 davi gmcharlt, I have register my account at the wiki. I will add such wiki section 20:33 schuster Are you proposing to "flag" all < 2.0 tickets as < 2.0 product or < 2. 0 component? 20:33 slef davi: it supports openID 20:33 ricardo slef: LOL! 20:33 hdl_laptop ricardo: please send. 20:33 slef sorry, I'm tired 20:34 gmcharlt schuster: squash the version numbers 20:34 ricardo hdl_laptop: OK. I only could test it in one environment, so feel free to test it in others, if you wish (in fact, I'll be GLAD if you do!) 20:34 davi slef, I do not like openID, it is not secure by design! 20:34 slef davi: it's a wiki, not launch_nuke_by_LOC.pl 20:34 davi it is good for a wiki, because it do not requires security 20:35 schuster So you are proposing to remove those 2 items totally? 20:35 slef davi: ni samopinas :) 20:35 slef erm 20:35 slef davi: ni samopinias :) 20:35 gmcharlt schuster: no, not remove the bugs, just adjust the version number to shorten the drop-down for version numbers when entering new bugs 20:36 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: I have no objection to squashing version numbers. 20:36 ricardo gmcharlt: Fine by me... At least for the really old versions 20:36 gmcharlt OK, we're past 1.5 hours - unless somebody has another burning issue to raise, I suggest we dedicate the rest of the day to watching slef's and davi's OpenID debate 20:36 davi As I do not use OpenID for any serious, I have not created an OpenID account, and I think I will never do, instead I use the same password elsewhere for those things, it is easier :) 20:36 schuster gmcharlt - ok since bugs are version ignorant makes sence. 20:37 tajoli I have new info about documentation of Koha DB level 20:37 schuster I would like to suggest to people to also add items to the RFC or at least an enhancement in bugs.koha.org especially if you are a programmer working on something. If you want to do it or remind the person paying you to do it either way... Helps others in the community. 20:37 gmcharlt tajoli: cool - go ahead 20:37 tajoli We use Schema 20:37 ricardo schuster++ 20:38 tajoli SchemaSpy software 20:38 tajoli http://schemaspy.sourceforge.net/ 20:38 hdl_laptop tajoli++ it is quite good. 20:38 ricardo tajoli: Interesting. I didn't know that one :) 20:38 tajoli And we insert comment on table level 20:39 tajoli and on columns 20:39 hdl_laptop You should then insert them into kohastructure. 20:39 tajoli Yes, but after installation 20:39 slef gmcharlt: aw, I wanted to sleep :) 20:40 tajoli A first version is here: http://www.koha.it/local--files/mysql-dev/schemaKoha.tar.gz 20:40 tajoli I have update the wiki page of DB schema http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:development:dbschema 20:41 gmcharlt tajoli++ 20:41 ricardo tajoli++ 20:41 tajoli To use SchemaSpy you need a Mysql with Koha installed 20:41 ricardo (How does one ask the "munin" bot about karma? :) 20:41 slef @karma ricardo 20:41 munin slef: Karma for "ricardo" has been increased 4 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 4. 20:42 ricardo slef: Thanks! :) 20:42 ebegin ricardo-- ;) 20:42 ebegin ricardo++ 20:42 ricardo ebegin: I was expecting that ;-) 20:42 gmcharlt heh 20:42 tajoli For relations (the most imporant think) it use FK, indexes, PK and columns with the same name 20:42 ricardo tajoli: Nice 20:43 cait tajoli: looks great 20:44 hdl_laptop hi cait. 20:44 tajoli So in fact it has a problem: the name of colums. For example the name 'id' is use in different table as PK but the tables are not reletad between them 20:45 cait hdl: hi :) 20:45 ricardo tajoli: Hmmm... And does it do that for both MyISAM and InnoDB tables? 20:45 tajoli We plan to have a beta version with more comment on 10 July 20:45 gmcharlt ok, thanks tajoli 20:45 tajoli Now Koha has only InnoDB tables. 20:46 ricardo tajoli: OK. I wasn't sure about that. Thanks. That is a problem then, as you say 20:46 tajoli In MyISAM the FK are not working but you can set them 20:46 gmcharlt we're at 1.75 hours, so I'm calling the meeting closed 20:46 tajoli Probably it could read FK in MYISAM 20:46 gmcharlt I'm calling the next general IRC meeting for first Wednesday of August, i.e., 5 August 20:47 Brooke cool 20:47 gmcharlt thanks, everybody 20:47 ricardo gmcharlt: OK... Is there some agenda for that meeting? One topic that I think will *need* to be addressed / discussed is the translation ... hmmm.. framework (for the SQL, JS files) to remove redundancies and inconsistencies... But it sounds to be a job for a big rewrite in some parts :( 20:48 ricardo (Maybe there's already a RFC for that, don't know... I must search for it) 20:49 cait add translation for xslt files 20:49 |Lupin| any idea aboutthe time ? 20:49 gmcharlt we can try the time used for the 3 June meeting - 10:00 UTC+0 20:50 ricardo gmcharlt: Sure. For me (in Portugal) that hour is great (it would be 11AM here). 20:50 |Lupin| didn't you want to change the time for each meeting ? 20:51 ricardo cait: Thanks for the additional tip! :) 20:53 gmcharlt ricardo: started wiki page for next meeting - feel free to add agenda items 20:53 ricardo gmcharlt: You are really good at that "de-le-ga-ting" thing, you know? ;-) 20:54 ricardo (just kidding, eheh...) 20:54 gmcharlt ricardo++ 20:54 |Lupin| anyway 20:54 gmcharlt the link is http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=meetingnotes09aug05 , btw 20:55 |Lupin| gmcharlt: thanks a lot for havin run this meeting and having done it so well, it was great 20:55 ricardo |Lupin|++ 20:55 ricardo gmcharlt++ 20:55 |Lupin| :) 20:55 gmcharlt thanks 20:55 ricardo :) 20:55 Brooke feel free to send me boring Librarian queries, for now, it's Miller time! 20:56 ricardo Brooke: Can't you send me a "Miller" from there to Portugal? ;-) 20:56 wizzyrea oh man, beer. 20:56 wizzyrea gah, still an hour to go 20:56 ricardo wizzyrea: LOL! 20:57 wizzyrea :) 20:57 wizzyrea the only thing that would make it better would be a pool + beer 20:57 ricardo Speaking of which... It's (late) dinner time (late because this meeting started at 8PM for me, eheh. Take care everyone! 20:57 ricardo wizzyrea++ 20:57 ricardo ;-) 20:57 wizzyrea hee ty 20:57 ricardo You're welcome :) 20:57 ricardo (out!) 20:59 |Lupin| btw, is it onpurpose that the chan doens't have a topic ? 21:00 gmcharlt |Lupin|: not particularly, we just don't consistenly have op 21:02 brendan so long #koha folks 21:03 slef bye bye brendan 21:03 brendan enjoy the evening! 21:03 Brooke see ya brendan 21:03 pianohacker gmcharlt: Does munin have a chanserv-like mode? 21:04 Brooke okay for serious, time for me to cook dinner before Ulduar 21:04 slef http://www.burnham-on-sea.com/webcam/ 21:04 |Lupin| whether has been terribly hot in Paris these dys... Ppl can hardly sleep 21:04 slef neighbouring town but faces the sunset 21:04 gmcharlt pianohacker: yes, it has a ChanServer module 21:04 wizzyrea owen: brilliant blog post 21:05 wizzyrea drat, he's gone 21:05 |Lupin| slef: where are you from again ? 21:06 slef |Lupin|: I'm just north of Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, England 21:06 |Lupin| slef: ok 21:10 schuster wizzyrea - prompted by my stupidity! 21:12 pianohacker wizzyrea: url? 21:12 wizzyrea http://www.myacpl.org/koha/?p=237 21:13 wizzyrea schuster: pff, not stupid. We actually went over kind of the same thing a while back while I was doing jquery/css in the staff client 21:13 wizzyrea he probably figured he'd answered it twice, might as well post it :) 21:15 slef "Nefarious webmasters are likely to swap out the image for something you don’t want to see!" 21:21 davi Initial draft about comand-line conventions added 21:21 davi http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:development:codingguidelines#command-line_argument_conventions 21:21 davi Expand it if needed. It just try to be a note to start the discussion 21:23 davi As proposal of convention rules: hGNU coding standards, ttp://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/ 21:23 davi h* 21:25 |Lupin| see you later all, time to go sleeping here. bye ! 21:28 wizzyrea last seen times = time stamp on the server, right? 21:28 wizzyrea not the time stamp on the client 21:29 gmcharlt @last wizzyrea 21:29 munin gmcharlt: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message (1 more message) 21:29 gmcharlt @seen wizzyrea 21:29 munin gmcharlt: wizzyrea was last seen in #koha 39 seconds ago: <wizzyrea> not the time stamp on the client 21:29 slef oh no, not the time stamp on the client! 21:30 wizzyrea (someone asked, I wanted to give a definitive answer, I assumed server time) 21:30 wizzyrea (well I meant in koha, sillies) 21:30 wizzyrea you know, where there is a list of "last seen" 21:30 gmcharlt wizzyrea: well, @seen is relatively, it appears 21:31 wizzyrea ok, lol 21:31 wizzyrea in koha 21:31 wizzyrea in the item records 21:31 slef server time 21:31 wizzyrea you can look at checkout history 21:31 slef I'd bet that 21:31 wizzyrea ty 21:31 wizzyrea :) 21:31 gmcharlt I get it now 21:31 slef we had much fun with people not setting server timezones in 2.0 21:31 wizzyrea (aside: the last seen columns aren't consistent, they show different things) 21:32 wizzyrea gmcharlt: *giggle* 21:32 slef do *not* get me started on koha date handling :) 21:40 IrmaCalyx good morning/goog night/good bye all...off to 1st appointment of the day. Thanks for the meeting:-) 21:57 chris back 22:08 Jo Moirning Chris 22:08 chris hey jo, ack forgot to email you 22:08 chris 2 secs 22:13 chris off it goes, stats should be in your mailbox soon 22:15 Jo yay - thanks Chris. 22:15 Jo Danny working through them now 22:15 chris cool 22:16 pianohacker Hey chris. What have you been up to? 22:17 chris meetings about keywords for a cuisine website 22:17 chris 9am meeting, meant i had to catch the early bus and miss the irc meeting :( 22:17 chris but ill read back on the transcript 22:18 chris http://catalystcoffee.com/ <-- my friend was here, using their wifi yesterday 22:22 chris oh we have a koha library in hawaii, cool 22:22 pianohacker Yup, Hawaii State Archives 22:24 brendan heya chris 22:24 brendan pianohacker - howdy 22:24 chris hey there brendan 22:24 pianohacker hey brendan 22:24 brendan Sonja just made cookies ! -- happy /me 22:24 chris heh lucky 22:29 brendan is there somewhere to go for vmware images of koha, besides the extension manager? 22:30 brendan just following through kylehall's page now - maybe I'm answering my own questions 22:32 brendan think I'm all good :) 22:32 chris :) 22:34 ricardo Back (kinda...) 22:34 ricardo Hi chris ! :) 22:35 pianohacker Off to meeting, bye all 22:35 chris hiya ricardo :) 22:36 ricardo I'm resuming work in a Virtual Machine running openSUSE 11.0, git and Koha 3.0.x / MASTER branch and 2 databases (one for Koha 3.0.X and the other for MASTER)... The setup is still a bit "mixed up" :( 00:08 ricardo Sleep time. Take care! 02:43 atz gmcharlt: is kohaspsuggest dead? 02:50 chris what does kohapsuggest do? 02:53 atz it tries to do 2 insanely unrelated things on a totally different db_host:database:user:password: 02:53 chris ahh 02:53 atz (1) get spelling suggestions 02:53 atz (2) log the query 02:54 chris sounds like it should die to me 02:54 atz totally unsupported by the installer, afaict 02:54 atz i think the original is kados code 02:56 chris ahh probably something left over from the dev_week branch 02:57 atz i think zebra effectively destoyed the rationale for such a cumbersome feature 02:58 chris yep 03:00 chris ahh its left over from 2.2.x 03:00 chris http://liblime.com/products/koha/koha-classic/koha-classic-enhancement-features 03:01 chris http://lists.koha.org/pipermail/koha-devel/2006-December/006415.html 03:01 atz wow, almost all features that are not working now. 03:02 chris yeah :( 03:02 atz really crappy implementation for spellcheck though... need a whole separate DB? wtf? 03:02 chris yeah, doing it against the one we already have seems more sensible 03:31 Amit hi chris, brendan 03:31 Amit good morning #koha 03:53 brendan hello amit 03:53 Amit heya brendan 07:33 chris morning europe 07:35 hdl_laptop hi chris 07:37 eiro hello world 07:55 chris hows it going mason? 07:55 chris you staying up there? 07:56 mason naw, werking late - on nightly fines stuff 07:57 chris ahhh 07:57 chris go live is getting close eh 07:57 mason getting there... i have a bunch of useful stuff to commit back, when i get this finished 07:57 hdl_laptop hi mason 07:57 mason yeah 07:57 mason heya hdl 07:58 chris awesome 07:59 mason i just downloaded FF 3.5 last nite, looks good 07:59 chris yeah, nice and fast 08:00 mason i was trying to use its JS profiler on the addbiblio..tmpl jscript 08:01 mason i have to say the save/validate speed of addbiblio.pl is very fast on my 2ghz lappy 08:03 chris *nod* 08:03 chris even faster with chromium 08:03 mason on deb/ubuntu ? 08:03 chris yep 08:04 chris deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/chromium-daily/ppa/ubuntu intrepid main 08:11 mason ok, me off... 09:08 thd chris: are you still awake? 09:08 thd hdl_laptop: you must be awake 09:09 hdl_laptop I am 09:09 chris yep i am 09:09 thd Why are we updating borrowers.dateenrolled as if it is borrowers.datemodified 09:09 thd ? 09:10 chris we are? we shouldn't be 09:10 thd There is no borrowers.datemodified 09:10 chris where is it doing that? 09:11 thd I have not looked to find where the code is doing that yet but the evidence is very good 09:11 thd If you update a patron record, borrowers.dateenrolled changes. 09:13 chris C4::Members is the only place where it is changed 09:16 chris in ModMember 09:20 chris doesnt change it for me 09:20 chris unless i delete the value in the registration date in the form 09:21 chris seems to set it to whatever is in the form for me 09:21 atz possibly if you move the record from deletedborrowers 09:21 chris jeez dont you americans ever sleep? :-) 09:26 thd no apparently not 09:27 thd maybe the report I had been answering is because of user error in modifying a patron record 09:27 chris if they change the date, it certainly changes 09:28 chris that seems to be the behaviour i am seeing 09:29 thd It is certainly called by ModMember for date format wrangling 09:29 chris yep, but whatever is in the form is passed to it 09:31 thd atz made another suggestion about a possible user procedure issue. 09:31 thd 99% of all bugs are user error. 09:31 chris it certainly isnt setting it to be the last modified date, thats for sure 09:32 chris not when editing a borrower 09:32 thd I assumed I was on to something when I found no column for modified date. 09:43 thd chris: I totally misread the report 09:43 thd chris: It was a sort order problem 09:44 thd No I read it right 09:44 thd User error. 09:49 chris pebkac :) 09:49 thd pebkac? 09:51 hdl_laptop problem is between keybord and computer 09:51 chris problem exists between keyboard and chair 09:51 thd yes, I see it warrants a Wikipedia article 10:00 thd Eliminate PEBKAC. Only machines should be allowed to do data entry. 10:28 Elwell_ thd: take the humans out the loop? how about a nice game of chess? 10:29 chris ill be back 10:30 chris sorry dave i cant do that 10:30 chris etc etc 10:30 chris :)