IRC log for #koha, 2009-02-10

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:56 jwagner Can someone answer a question about the logic behind calculating due dates with a holiday in the calendar?
12:58 jwagner I had assumed that the holiday part only came into effect if a due date fell on a day defined as a holiday.  What seems to be happening is that if a day defined as a holiday falls anywhere in the loan period, the loan period is extended by a day.  Is this the way it's supposed to work?
13:00 paul_p hi jwagner. strange you're right. The way it's supposed to work, afaik, is to add days only if the due_date is a closed one, you're right
13:02 jwagner Hmmmm.  We've tested and it doesn't seem to be working that way.  Feb 16 is defined as a holiday.  If the loan period extends past Feb 16 (e.g., would normally be due on Feb 20), the system is making it due a day later (Feb 21).  However, if the loan period ends before Feb 16, the due date falls on the proper date.  As far as I can see, the calendar is set up correctly.  What else can I look at?  I don't see many policies or sysprefs other than the ones
13:04 paul_p jwagner: I'm afraid I won't be helpful here : our libraries usually have due dates calculated in weeks. So if someone issues a book on monday (open), it's due on monday (open too !). So nobody ever reported a bug on that, & I never had to investigate.
13:07 jwagner Thanks, Paul.  I'll keep poking around.  I didn't see any relevant bugs on the bugzilla site, but maybe this is a new one.
13:26 kf there is a syspref
13:26 kf jwagner, i thought you can configure how calendar is handled
13:27 kf[…]nces--Circulation
13:27 kf useDaysMode
13:27 paul_p kf ++ !!! I forgot this one !!!
13:28 kf im glad if i can help, because normally im just asking questions
13:29 kf atm i have a problem with geman umlauts and how they are displayed in firefox :(
13:31 Elwell hmm. If I want to get the addresses in swiss format (streetname number, postcode town) where do I start hacking?
13:32 owen Elwell: does the database have the appropriate fields for you to work with? Is it only a display issue?
13:49 jwagner Paul and KF, sorry, I stepped away for a few minutes.  Our UseDaysMode syspref is set to Calendar.  If I'm understanding it correctly, that means it should pay attention to the holidays defined in the calendar.  It seems to be doing that; it's just extending the duedate even if the defined duedate isn't on the holiday.
13:51 kf i think you want to use datedue
13:52 kf with calendar its does not count the closed days for the due date, as i understand it
13:52 kf what you want is, that closed days cant be a due date?
13:54 jwagner Yes.  So, looking again at the values for that syspref, what we want is datedue rather than calendar?
13:54 kf i think so
13:55 jwagner Many thanks!  I'll give that a try.
13:55 owen jwagner: We had the same confusion here. People were wondering why the due date had been extended by a day
13:55 jwagner Owen, did the datedue fix it for you?
13:56 kf i think datedue is what the libraries here want too - that due dates dont fall on days, when the library is closed, but on the next day, the library is open
13:57 owen I'm still confused because the description of the syspref says "select Calendar to use the holidays module, and Days to ignore the holidays module"
13:57 owen ...but it doesn't mention datedue
13:58 owen Ah, but in the manual: Datedue = the calendar only affects a due date if the due date would normally land on a closed date.
13:59 owen so yeah, that's the right setting.
14:00 kf owen, can you perhaps take a look at my problem with umlauts?
14:00 owen I don't know if I can help, but I'd be glad to take a look
14:00 kf perhaps you have an idea, how to teach firefox to display them right :(
14:11 owen Any Koha statistics experts around?
14:15 owen I'm wondering if Koha is still not recording a branch for some renewal transactions
14:16 owen It makes it very difficult to calculate transactions per branch if 500,000 of your renewal stats for the year don't have a branch listed.
14:23 atz owen: i don't think koha stats even records "issuingbranch" for a regular checkout
14:24 atz just "branchcode"
14:24 atz (i.e. owner of the item)
14:24 owen I thought branchcode *was* issuingbranch
14:25 atz well, i should be more specific.   branchcode is the brach whose rules govern the checkout
14:25 atz if you are setup to circ like most ppl, it is the owning branch
14:25 atz but can be issuing branch (i think the syspref is HomeOrHoldingBranch
14:25 atz )
14:26 hdl_laptop atz: CircControl.
14:27 atz thx hdl_laptop
14:27 hdl_laptop np.
14:29 owen So with CircControl set to ItemHomeLibrary, the statistic for a book checked out at *any* branch will list the item's home branch?
14:30 atz i think it should.  the problem is that issuingbranch is the field it should query, but that is rarely if ever populated
14:31 atz basically the stats all key on "branchcode" because it is the one that gets results.  but it isn't really the right one.
14:31 atz i regard koha stats w/ suspicion.
14:31 owen F'ing hell don't tell my boss that
14:32 atz for single branch systems, i think it is equivalent
14:32 owen hdl_laptop: do you know how 2.x versions handled this situation? Do you know which branch would be credited with the issue statistic?
14:34 hdl_laptop Sorry out of my hat, i can't answer you.
14:36 kf hdl, can i ask you something about french accents and utf-8?
14:38 hdl_laptop yes
14:38 hdl_laptop kf ?
14:38 kf here
14:39 kf we have a problem with german umlauts in utf-8
14:39 hdl_laptop owen : in statistics table in koha 2.2 it was the "issuing" branch twhich was stored.  
14:40 owen Thank you for confirming that hdl_laptop. That is what I wanted to hear :)
14:40 hdl_laptop kf are you using MARC21 or unimarc ?
14:40 kf marc21
14:40 hdl_laptop Is it a display or search problem ?
14:40 kf a display problem
14:41 hdl_laptop ???
14:41 kf both, but zebra can solve the search problem
14:41 kf i will try to explain
14:41 kf in english its difficult
14:41 hdl_laptop do you have a url ?
14:41 hdl_laptop ich kann ein wenig deutsch sprechen.
14:45 kf i sent you the link
15:50 owen Hi liz and danny
15:50 danny hey owen and #koha
15:50 liz 'mornin Owen
15:51 liz did everybody have a lovely weekend?
15:51 kf hi liz
15:53 hdl_laptop hi liz
15:57 liz lol owen
15:57 liz and hi everybody :D
16:02 nicomo hi liz
16:03 liz I feel unnaturally welcomed this morning, thank you :)
16:14 hdl_laptop owen: i just sent an update on circulation.tmpl on 3.0.1 can you proof read the result so that we can be sure not to have broken any feature ? 6 eyes are better than 1
16:14 hdl_laptop (nicomo is testing it on his machine.)
16:15 pianohacker owen: just saw your post
16:15 pianohacker That setting really doesn't even work correctly? That would be the icing on the cake
16:16 owen pianohacker: As far as I can tell. when I set the "hidden" value to display in the editor, it doesn't. It only displays if there is a pre-filled value or if it is mandatory.
16:17 pianohacker Hrm
16:17 pianohacker Maybe a double patch
16:19 hdl_laptop owen cnighswongerer is not around is he ?
16:20 owen hdl_laptop: you sent an update where?
16:21 hdl_laptop well.... I should have sent it to the list, but I pushed it through directly.
16:22 hdl_laptop It is on 3.0.x branch
16:35 liz you know, the add patron interface really ought to exclude patron categories that don't match the type of patron you are adding
16:35 liz i.e. if you are adding an adult patron, it shouldn't show you child patron categories
16:37 owen hdl_laptop: I'm not clear on what your change was supposed to fix. Can you explain?
16:45 pianohacker liz: believe it or not, I think you have me to blame for that
16:46 pianohacker It was a fix for not being able to change the patron category across supercategories; i.e, an adult patron could not become a homebound patron
16:47 owen it preselects the patron type  you chose to add though
16:51 hdl_laptop owen : there is 2 fixes in it.
16:52 hdl_laptop a) divs behaved quite badly when user was selected => lefthand menu bar was displayed at the bottom of circulation page.
16:53 hdl_laptop b) Null checkouts and fines were displayed even when no borrowers wereselected.
16:53 liz owen: hm, ours just shows the categories alphabetically, starting with the child categories, regardless of the supercategory
16:54 liz pianohacker: I can appreciate that fix, for sure
16:55 liz lordy, everything you've ever heard about kansas and wind is coming true today
16:56 rhcl yea, really strong wind up here too, and we're not even in Kansas!
17:04 owen hdl_laptop: I see the problems you describe, and your updated file seems to fix them
17:06 hdl_laptop Can you do some more tests ?
17:07 hdl_laptop just to check that nothing else is broken by this patch.
17:07 hdl_laptop It is quite uneasy to read tmpl files.
17:07 hdl_laptop (They are not much factorized.
17:07 hdl_laptop )
17:10 owen Certainly
17:17 hdl_laptop (I think that eventually, it could be good if error messages or warnings, or even working area would be in different included files but would be a heavy refactoring.)
17:18 owen I do see a layout bug...let me try to track it down.
17:23 hdl_laptop owen : can you point it to me ?
17:24 owen If the patron has messages (overdues, circulation note, etc) that block is showing up below the checkout form rather than to the right of it
17:26 owen according to the diff on, you took out a <!-- TMPL_UNLESS --> and a <!-- /TMPL_IF --> Aren't you getting template errors from that?
17:27 hdl_laptop I took out TMPL_UNLESS with its /TMPL_UNLESS
17:28 hdl_laptop mmm... strange.
17:35 hdl_laptop owen : this warning stack underflow:tags stack is empty ?
18:33 Elwell hmm. kohadocs for 3.0 -- pdf's screwy for all?
18:33 Khalsa the ones that are really old?
18:34 Khalsa oh ncm
18:34 Khalsa nvm
19:50 owen Every time I try to delete an extra framework Koha says it's being used 312 times...Each of them is being used exactly 312 times?
19:55 chris i find that hard to believe
20:04 gmcharlt owen: it's counting number of MARC tags you have defined in framework, not number of bibs using that framework
20:04 gmcharlt not saying that the current behavior is *useful*, mind you
20:04 owen :)
20:05 owen Would anything negative result from deleting a framework which was "in use" by existing records?
20:06 gmcharlt likely bib display oddities
20:06 gmcharlt and possibly worse
20:07 gmcharlt assigning bibs in question to the default framework should be reasonably safe, at least in MARC21
20:08 gmcharlt assuming you haven't changed the Koha field to MARC mapping
20:08 owen But there's not any way from within Koha to tell what frameworks are in use.
20:08 liz omg, gmcharlt that is so good to know
20:09 gmcharlt no except for running the query select frameworkcode, count(*) from biblio group by frameworkcode;
20:09 gmcharlt should be patched to do that as part of its delete_confirm check
20:10 chris you could even check things like if you try to change a framework that has less marc tags defined, what information will be 'lost' etc
20:39 Elwell hmm, see the changelog for INSTALL.debian -- wants to install HTML::Scrubber from cpan and not from libhtml-scrubber-perl ??
20:43 chris what version is in debian?
20:44 chris if its greater that 0.08 then it will be fine
20:44 Elwell 2 ticks (waiting for git)
20:45 Elwell 0.08-3
20:45 chris that'll be fine
20:47 Elwell[…]tml-scrubber-perl
20:48 Elwell should I do a diff and add it to the debian.packages rather than the cpan line and submit?
20:50 chris yep
20:50 chris that would be great
20:51 Elwell ok - I'll double check what else is packaged with lib*-perl first
21:15 Elwell ok - libpoe-perl --etch packaged version is at 0.3502, CPAN 1.003. Both get installed.
21:15 Elwell koha:/home/build# locate
21:15 Elwell /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8/
21:15 Elwell /usr/share/perl5/
21:31 Elwell chris: OK. if I've battled correctly against git, commit d68e4340c41b7e59ad2cad6aef078dd381a341e4
21:31 Elwell should have the changes
21:32 chris you will want to git format-patch
21:32 chris then git send-email
21:32 gmcharlt to
21:32 chris and send it to
21:32 chris or that
21:32 chris they go to the same place :)
21:33 Elwell meh
21:33 Elwell git: 'send-email' is not a git-command
21:34 gmcharlt what's your git --version
21:34 Elwell ah. old. very.
21:34 chris apt-get install git-email
21:35 chris comes as a separate package in debian
21:38 Elwell bugger - can't see my diff as I did a git commit
21:55 Elwell ok - I'm not convinced anything got sent (maillog looks empty), but I managed to extract the patch into a file and run git send-email
21:56 Elwell blame gmail :-)
21:56 Elwell ** R=nonlocal: Mailing to remote domains not supported
21:57 chris git format-patch
21:57 chris git format-patch origin
21:57 chris did that not make a patch for you?
21:58 Elwell yeah - got that (eventually once I worked out syntax -- first time with git)
21:58 Elwell can I send the patch from gmail or does it break your handling?
21:58 chris nope you can send it from gmail
21:59 gmcharlt you can send as an attachment if need be (would prefer to not munge any whitespace diffs)
22:04 Elwell ok - got as far as - I'm off to bed.
03:23 Amit hi good morning
03:23 Amit good morning mason, chris
03:34 mason morning amit
03:35 Khalsa Amit: what time zone are you in?
03:39 Amit i m from india
03:39 Amit 9.09 A.M IST
03:39 Amit hi khalsa
03:39 Khalsa Hi
03:42 Amit r u from khalsa?
07:20 kf good morning #koha
07:20 chris evening kf :)
07:31 kf :)
07:31 kf im still working at my encoding problems
07:33 chris never fun
07:34 Elwell hmm. who's the listadmin? vs
07:36 chris it will be someone at biblibre
07:38 mc wow ... storm begun!
07:39 mc hello world
07:39 chris hi mc
07:40 kf MARC8 -> UTF8 encoding is problematic
07:40 chris yes MARC8 was a very stupid idea
07:40 kf but at least i know that know - iso5... -> UTF8 works fine
07:41 SelfishMan "problematic" is an interesting term to describe that
07:41 kf but our union catalog is MARC8 + MARC21 of course...
07:41 kf im too nice for other terms ;)
07:42 SelfishMan A few more minutes of fighting with it and I would have been a broken person hiding in the corner in tears
07:42 kf lol
07:42 kf i was near yesterday
07:42 kf i still have no solution, but i got some correct umlauts from a french z39.50-server now
07:43 chris have you been using MARC::Charset?
07:43 chris[…]b/MARC/
07:44 kf its about the way umlauts are encoded, i want a single character version, but with marc8 i always get a 2 character version that is not searchable and displayed wrong
07:45 chris ahh
07:45 kf i think the two character version is already in marc8
07:46 kf so its not really a bug, but annoying :(
07:47 chris how many letters can have an umlaut on them in german?
07:47 kf i dont want a catalog, where german umlauts dont look the way they should
07:47 chris if you code convert the marc records to xml
07:47 kf its also about accents
07:47 chris code=could
07:47 kf umlauts are ä ö and ü
07:47 kf its about the z39.50 download in koha
07:48 chris then we could write some regex's in perl to convert them
07:48 kf i dont know how to change that, we already converted data for batch import
07:48 kf i think the problem is too big
07:48 mc hmm
07:48 kf i looked at french catalogs yesterday - there are many accents and things like â
07:48 kf - i cant speak french
07:48 mc want to convert umlauts symbols to what ?
07:48 kf and there its always single character version, because of unimarc and iso5...
07:49 mc ö > o ?
07:49 mc or other thing ?
07:49 kf but if you look for french records at LOC, its always two character
07:49 kf i dont know if i can really explain that in english
07:49 kf sorry mc?
07:49 kf do you mean alphabetical sorting?
07:50 chris mc: 2byte encoding to single byte encoding
07:50 mc kf, it seems to me that you want to convert
07:50 mc ohh
07:50 kf ah chris, i think you understand me :)
07:50 mc thx chris
07:51 kf the problem is, i can have 2byte, it looks slightly wrong and can be searched, but if something is changed manually, it will get singly byte
07:51 mc utf8 > latin1, something like that ... but what if you don't have the same symbol?
07:52 Elwell OK - seeing as Debian Lenny is coming out 'soon' (bearing in mind debians normal speed...) -- has anyone done an install on it?
07:52 chris yep
07:52 kf i think the symbols are not the problem
07:52 mc Elwell, i use it for a while now
07:53 kf its all there in single byte, just look at the french catalogs :(
07:53 mc even in production
07:54 Elwell mc: cool - deb testing proved pretty damn reliable last time I used it (fraid I jumped ship to the ubuntu side for desktops)
07:54 mc Elwell, i left etch for a while as many of the koha dependancies are in lenny so koha installation is very clean
07:55 kf is there a way to get records in marc8 to utf8 with german umlauts as single character?
07:56 paul_p hello everybody
07:56 paul_p good morning from france !
07:56 mc i'm not aware about char pbs but is marc::charset using iconv or something like that ? ?
07:57 mc paul_p, hello
07:57 Elwell bonjour paul from just across the border
07:58 paul_p Elwell: hi. Where are you located exactly ?
07:58 mc Elwell, experienced some pb with my ubuntu as desktop. i'm not happy enought to use it for customers
07:58 paul_p (/me in Marseille, south of france)
07:58 kf i think marc::charset works correct - but its still not what i need
07:59 mc kf, sorry ... i stop to bug you is it seems i don't understand the pb
07:59 kf and its confusing to have different versions of utf8-encoding for the same german letter
07:59 kf mc, im glad if someone tries to understand and help, i think its difficult for me to explain in english
08:00 mc kf: german ?
08:00 kf yes im from germany
08:00 Elwell paul_p: just over the swiss side of the Jura (work near geneva)
08:00 kf constance
08:00 paul_p do you speak french ? (if yes, we have a french speaking channel, much more silent than this one though)
08:01 mc Elwell, we're almost neighbor
08:01 kf sorry, no :(
08:01 Elwell paul_p: nope - still learning it
08:01 paul_p kf: I asked Elwell ;-) (I already knew you're german. And i'm happy to see new europeans being interested by Koha !)
08:02 mc my german isn't fluent enought for this kind of chat ... but i work on it!
08:02 paul_p we have some (few) customers in Switzerland (in Lausanne)
08:02 kf you can use me for training :)
08:02 chris kf: maybe ask on the koha-translate list?
08:02 paul_p (and hopefully another one in Neuchatel in the coming weeks...)
08:02 Elwell I notice the WIPO use it too but looks like its supported by liblime
08:02 chris someone might have run into something like this before
08:02 mc kf thx for it: i'll try when i will feel ready
08:03 chris yep WIPO do .. and UNIDO in vienna
08:03 kf mc: sure, im here
08:03 paul_p Elwell: yep. WIPO asked me a RFP 3 years ago, but it was not unimarc, not french & I was too busy. So I suggested asking LL
08:04 mc kf: so ...
08:04 Elwell my plan is to learn it and do as a volunteer project
08:04 kf its no problem for translation, because when using the keyboard you always get it right
08:05 mc you want to translate from utf8 to wich charset?
08:05 mc i seen MARC8
08:05 mc but is it a charset ?
08:05 mc (that's the point i missed, i think)
08:06 kf i think i dontk now how to explain it
08:07 kf it seems there are two different ways to encode umlauts (as an example) you can use base character + diacritic  or you can simple use the character ü
08:07 mc ok: where the data came from ?
08:07 kf LOC is an example, they use diacritic version
08:07 mc kf, sure! that's utf8 :)
08:07 kf and its annoying, because its displayed wrong in firefox
08:07 kf its not over the letter, but left of it
08:08 mc outch
08:08 kf dont can show that to a library user
08:08 paul_p kf : I confirm you ü can be represented differently in unicode (ü and U+UMLAUT)
08:08 mc kf, isn't it just a font pb in firefox ?
08:09 kf yes, but you cant force arial unicode ms i think, is it even avaliable on every system?
08:09 mc i fixed some weird displays just switching to a better utf8 font
08:09 kf then you can display it right
08:10 kf but you will still have mixed unicode encoding in your database then
08:10 mc kf, i use monospace under linux
08:10 mc i don't know about mac
08:10 mc (i have to test it)
08:11 hdl_laptop Elwell: it is me
08:11 mc kf, my two cents: you can't expect to avoid that if you don't check the data sent by user on fly
08:12 kf and zebra has to be configured, to do an equivalence search for all those characters
08:12 chris hdl_laptop: good morning, i pushed up the updated release notes
08:12 kf its not a good solution i think
08:12 mc kf, the better afaik :(
08:13 kf we would not have this problem i i could use UNIMARC
08:13 hdl_laptop chris: thanks
08:13 kf or only french z39.50 with iso encoding
08:14 kf i have to think about it, but i dont think its a good thing to use U+Umlaut, when its displayed wrong and cant be typed in by the user
08:16 hdl_laptop kf : it seems that the international norm is tending to have combined diacritics signs and not one character for that.
08:17 hdl_laptop This can explain the way taht MARC-8 to utf-8 chose to deal with encoding.
08:18 hdl_laptop We also have the problem here with some french diacritics.
08:18 hdl_laptop Since é can be encoded two ways
08:19 hdl_laptop Solution we are considering is using yaz-icu
08:19 hdl_laptop And normalize accents in order not to have problems with diacritics indexing.
08:23 hdl_laptop But display is then quite hard to fix.
08:32 hdl_laptop kf: I can help you building up equivalence in zebra for thos chars.
08:35 kf thx hdl
08:35 kf i think i know how to do that
08:36 kf i asked you about that some time ago :)
08:38 kf i saw in french catalogs only single character encoding - but thoght it must be the same problem with é
08:38 kf i have a little proplem here atm, be back later
09:43 kf hdl: normalize to e?
09:56 hdl_laptop kf: we are facing same problem with é.
09:57 hdl_laptop But if you are getting biblios from SUDOC with utf-8 encoding, you will see that é is combined diacritics and not \xe9
09:58 kf is it only é or all? â
09:59 kf i just dont like the idea to have both versions in one database
10:50 kf my colleague just sent me that link, seems NFC-normalization would be the right solution then:[…]org/msg00636.html

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