IRC log for #koha, 2006-07-26

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:58 kados
13:02 tumer[A] kados:check mail. Was it clear enough?
13:28 hdl kados around?
13:34 kados hdl: yep
13:34 kados hdl: what's up?/
13:34 hdl I have a problem
13:34 hdl MacOSX perl Module installation
13:34 hdl It seems It cannot launch make
13:35 hdl Do you know how to cope with it ?
13:36 kados hmmm
13:36 thd hdl: what version of OSX?
13:37 kados hdl: what's the exact error?
13:37 dewey i guess the exact error is just before :
13:37 hdl kados : make command not found.
13:37 kados hdl: and what module?
13:38 kados hdl:  it sounds like you need to install the developer's tools
13:38 kados hdl:  on the original CD
13:38 kados hdl: Xcode tools
13:38 hdl The first I tried was MARC::Record.
13:38 thd hd: you have to have the developer's tools disc installed, well kados types faster
13:39 hdl But is there a way to install perl Module without building them ?
13:39 kados hdl: yes
13:39 kados hdl: look in the lib dir
13:39 hdl I always use perl -MCPAN -e install ?
13:39 kados hdl: and copy it into your perl path
13:39 kados all make does is run the tests
13:39 kados and copy things over to the right spots
13:39 kados so you can do it manually
13:39 kados it's just a lot of work
13:40 kados hdl: install Xcode tools and it should work properly
13:40 hdl Holy ...
13:40 hdl It is on a machine in switzerland.
13:40 kados hehe
13:40 hdl via ssh.
13:40 kados hmmm
13:40 kados that is a problem :-)
13:41 hdl :D
13:41 thd hdl: the incompatibilities of building things on OSX are also a lot of work
13:41 kados there is no way to install remotely that I know of
13:41 thd kados: I suspect there is a way
13:41 kados hdl: one way would be via VNC
13:41 thd hdl: is this the server version of the software?
13:42 hdl I think it is MacOSX Server Edition.
13:42 kados hdl:
13:42 thd hdl: in any case, you can download the developer's tools
13:42 kados hdl: I'm not responsible if it breaks their system :-)
13:43 kados hdl: so according to that guy you can do it
13:43 thd hdl: you should also install fink which has ports from Debian so that you can install things correctly
13:44 thd hdl: you need developer's tools first
13:45 thd hdl: you have to match versions correctly so be certain you know which animal panther, cheetah, etc you have OS 10.?
13:46 hdl kados : Is there any tricks I should be aware of before installing ?
13:46 hdl For instance : apache is named httpd
13:46 kados i only run OSX as a desktop
13:46 kados don't have KOha installed
13:47 kados I use debian sarge for all koha installations
13:47 thd hdl: you should get a copy of "OSX for Unix Geeks"
13:47 hdl services are launched with service httpd restart
13:47 thd hdl: I successfully installed Koha 2.2 on OSX.
13:48 shedges thd:  did your install include the Z3950 search?
13:49 thd shedges: I wasted months trying to find an alternative  a year ago
13:50 shedges me, too.  I thought maybe somebody had solved the problem.
13:50 thd shedges: so no, I would have needed to recompile Apache and that might have broken other things so I refused to do more work on OSX after a certain point.
13:52 thd shedges, hdl, kados: Apple made OSX sufficiently different from FreeBSD, that doing work on the command line in the proper Unix way was a recurring exercise in frustration for minor incompatibilities
13:54 thd hdl: I did get things to work but I had to Google to workaround errors too often for installing some things from source
13:54 thd hdl: Koha should not be a major problem
13:54 hdl thd: Do you have some guidelines for Koha Installations ?
13:55 thd hdl: It was too long ago to remember except that you need to install the developer tools and I would recommend installing Fink.
13:57 thd hdl: I remember some problems with the directory where OSX puts man pages
13:58 thd hdl: Google searches on are helpful
14:01 thd hdl: often you may find that you want to install things with a different version than what apple provides fink has a separate non-conflicting directory for doing just that
14:07 thd hdl: I really needed the OSX for Unix Geeks book to find my way around how Apple renamed everything etc.  The book also has some undocumented commands
14:12 thd kados: where is tumer's message?
14:14 hdl thd: Many thx.
14:16 thd hdl: you are quite welcome.  OSX is great for the GUI but is not what you want to install Unix software on if you had a choice.
17:43 thd kados: are you there?
18:05 thd tumer hello
18:05 thd tumer: what was the message that you sent?
18:05 tumer hi i am still strugling
18:06 tumer oh i sent a report to ID about the issue we discussed
18:06 thd tumer: with what are you still struggling?
18:06 thd tumer: kados thought of a way around the problem for some cases
18:07 tumer like ???
18:09 thd tumer: you could put record IDs which needed matching into some local use filed and index on the local use field which would then be the same field for bibliographic and holdings records.
18:09 thd s/filed/field/
18:10 tumer thd: i think i could not let myself be understood very well. give me a mail address and i will send you an email
18:11 thd tumer: you could then have 99X for the bibliographic ID in both bibliographic and authority records
18:12 thd s/authority/holdings/
18:12 tumer authority and bibliographic works fine
18:13 thd tumer: try koha at
18:14 thd tumer well it is the authority records about which I have the greatest concern
18:15 tumer what do i do there?
18:15 thd tumer: I want to be able to search the references and tracings for multiple authority records and return bibliographic records
18:15 thd tumer did you not want an email address?
18:16 tumer yes your email please
18:16 thd tumer: koha at
18:16 tumer oops sorry
18:19 tumer thd:koha-dvel already does that
18:20 tumer we do the similar thing with items as well
18:20 tumer search biblios and retrive related items -- no problem
18:20 tumer or vice versa
18:21 tumer but SQL like JOIN is what we are after
18:22 tumer i want to be able to limit the search to 120,000 records out of 200,000 depending which criteria i put in like a branch
18:27 thd tumer: yes, had you posted to koha-devel?
18:28 tumer not yet
18:30 thd oh I have the message now
18:32 thd tumer: how did you implement the recursive search of IDs?  What was recursive about your search?
18:34 tumer well search author and get 1000 records search branch main get 120,000 records then do a serach of 1000 biblionumbers within 120,000
18:34 tumer result gives yo 121 records
18:35 thd tumer I guess it is recursive if each record must search for its own ID again
18:35 tumer yes you do 1000 times
18:37 thd tumer: do you have problems with one database failing to respond if you search multiple databases in the same domain?
18:38 thd s/domain/server/
18:38 tumer no but try 1000 searches of biblionumbers one after the other and everything is standstill
18:39 thd tumer: will you not have the same issue when you have 1000 simultaneous users? :)
18:40 tumer not really, scripts work faster then fingers
18:41 thd tumer: so 1000 simultaneous users is really only ten simultaneous users?
18:42 tumer and they only retrieve some records while i have to retrive all 1000 extract biblionumbers then do a search for each get 120 results
18:48 thd tumer: I hope Index data supports record linking.  I think they must because they helped with a demo system that must have had linked record indexes.
18:49 tumer demo where?
18:50 tumer can we look at it?
18:50 thd tumer: it has not been working for a few weeks and it is years old
18:51 thd tumer: I think Index Data forgot about it
18:51 tumer well lets hope and wait
18:53 thd tumer: maybe they never ran that whole system but they had won the contract to help build it
18:55 thd kados: are you there?
18:55 thd kados: FAST is not a solution for records with LCSH
18:57 thd kados: FAST was Chan's idea from a decade ago to simplify LCSH for the era when no one knew how to catalogue anymore
02:06 osmoze hello #koha
02:11 btoumi hi all
02:19 osmoze bonjour btoumi
02:19 btoumi bonjour osmoze
02:19 btoumi comment va ce matin?
02:22 osmoze ca va ca va, comme un lundi :) et toi ?
02:26 btoumi osmoze : on est mardi??? ca devait etre une blague :=)
02:27 osmoze ah oui, mais non c est pas une blague, je bosse le samedi donc votre mardi c est mon lundi :)
02:27 btoumi lol
02:27 btoumi ok
02:27 btoumi j'ai travailler pendant cinq ans le samedi donc je te comprend
02:29 osmoze ^^
02:29 btoumi osmoze : et ton travail d'investigation sur koha avance?
02:29 osmoze c est les joies de travailler en bib de lecture publique :/
02:29 osmoze btoumi, d investigation de ?
02:29 btoumi sur koha =>test ect.
02:31 osmoze non pas en ce moment, je suis en pleine reinstallation du parc des pc publics et interne. Le grand ménage d été. ALors en ce moment, koha n'est pas la priorité ^^
02:33 osmoze d'ailleurs, je dois me rendre dans un autre centre, @ plus tard
02:34 btoumi ah ok
02:34 paul tada ... my internet connexion works !
02:34 btoumi yesssssssssssss!
02:34 btoumi bonne nouvelle pour Paul
02:47 qiqo ei help..
02:48 paul toins : tu peux réintégrer le bureau quand tu veux ;-)
02:48 qiqo bonjour paul
02:48 qiqo tu peux m'aide?
02:48 toins paul, Ah trop bien !!!
02:49 qiqo im getting this error message while updating koha to 2.3.0 not well-formed (invalid token) at line 2, column 8, byte 9 at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.6/i486-linux/XML/ line 187
02:49 qiqo from 2.2.5 to 2.3.0
02:49 toins paul, la je n'ai pas de voiture dans l'immediat... donc cet après midi
02:50 chris theres about 0% chance that an upgrade from 2.2.5 to 2.3.0 will work
02:50 qiqo ah really?
02:50 chris just installing 2.3.0 and getting it to work is very hard
02:50 qiqo why is that so chris?
02:50 chris yes, 2.3.0 is purely a development release
02:52 chris[…]php?forum_id=4530
02:52 qiqo :(
02:52 chris tells you a little bit more about it
02:52 qiqo ah aryt i understand
02:52 chris if you actually want to use it, id wait for a 2.4.x release
02:53 chris if the second number is an odd number
02:53 chris then its unstable/development and only *might* work
02:53 qiqo ermm ok so i have another question... how do i reset the Z3950 module
02:53 chris if its even, like 2.2 or 2.4 ... then it should work
02:53 qiqo ahh ok now i understand
02:54 chris to go back down to a previous version? hmm not sure about that
02:54 chris i think just get the older version and install that
02:54 chris but im not sure about that
02:54 qiqo yup im doing that as of the moment
02:55 qiqo i run koha.upgrade or 2.2.5
02:55 qiqo ok im back with 2.2.5
02:57 qiqo my Z3950 module isnt working
02:58 chris did you upgrade it when you were trying to upgrade to 2.3 ?
02:59 qiqo nope, the upgrade never finalised
03:00 hdl hello all
03:00 qiqo hello hdl
03:00 chris was the z3950 working before you started upgrading?
03:00 chris hi hdl
03:00 qiqo nope it wasnt.. actually i just finished installing 2.2.5 a while ago
03:00 qiqo then i attempted an upgrade
03:00 chris its a bit tricky to get going
03:01 chris the main thing to check is do you have z3950 daemon running?
03:01 qiqo according to the mailing list, after adding a z3950 server i have to restart the daemon
03:02 chris maybe, but i dont think so, you do need to have the daemon running though
03:02 chris it will log
03:02 chris to /usr/local/koha/log/
03:02 chris so you can see what its doing
03:03 qiqo i think it's not running
03:03 qiqo my query is included in the koha-errorlog
03:04 chris
03:04 chris is the script to start it
03:04 chris in /usr/local/koha/intranet/scripts/z3950daemon
03:04 qiqo yup
03:05 qiqo how do you know if its loaded?
03:06 chris what happens when you type
03:06 chris ps axf | grep "z3950"
03:06 chris should get something like
03:06 chris 1999 pts/17   S      0:00 su -c /usr/local/koha/intranet/scripts/​z3950daemon/ - www-data
03:06 chris 2000 pts/17   S      0:04  \_ /usr/bin/perl /usr/local/koha/intranet/script​s/z3950daemon/processz3950queue /usr/local/koha/log
03:06 qiqo 4904 pts/1    S+     0:00  |   |   \_ grep z3950
03:06 chris right its not running then
03:07 qiqo errmm..
03:07 chris in /usr/local/koha/log
03:07 chris are there any files like
03:07 chris z3950-daemon-20060725-2005.log
03:07 qiqo yup
03:07 qiqo there is one
03:07 chris todays date?
03:07 qiqo yup
03:08 chris what does it say?
03:08 qiqo Bareword "Net::Z3950::RecordSyntax::USMARC" not allowed while "strict subs" in use at /usr/local/koha/intranet/script​s/z3950daemon/processz3950queue line 260.
03:08 chris there we go, thats why its not starting
03:09 chris 2 secs i think i remember the fix for this
03:09 qiqo line 260 says: eval { $conn->option(preferredRecordSyntax =>
03:10 qiqo i think the problem is betweenMARC21 andUS marc
03:10 qiqo are MARC21 and USMARC alike? because my teacher in library science told me that they are somewhat different
03:10 chris you could try commenting that line out
03:11 qiqo oh its running
03:13 qiqo ohh nope false alarm
03:13 qiqo ehehe its still is not running
03:13 chris anything else in the error log now/
03:13 qiqo Bareword "Net::Z3950::RecordSyntax::UNIMARC" not allowed while "strict subs" in use at /usr/local/koha/intranet/script​s/z3950daemon/processz3950queue line 261.
03:14 qiqo ill have the two commented out
03:14 qiqo then ill try again
03:14 chris right
03:16 chris actually
03:16 qiqo heres what i get in ps: 4950 pts/1    S      0:00 /usr/bin/perl /usr/local/koha/intranet/script​s/z3950daemon/processz3950queue /usr/local/koha/log
03:17 chris try making it $Net::Z3950 ....
03:17 chris ie add the $
03:17 chris that looks like its running
03:18 qiqo hurrah
03:19 qiqo still im not getting results from the library of congress
03:19 qiqo :(
03:20 chris whats the log tell you
03:20 chris loc doesnt have the most reliable server
03:21 chris you could try monash
03:21 qiqo what servers can i use?
03:21 qiqo the logs are blank
03:21 chris
03:21 chris 7090
03:21 chris did you do an isbn search or a title one?
03:22 chris db is voyager for monash
03:22 qiqo yup
03:22 chris which one isbn?
03:22 qiqo harry potter 1
03:22 qiqo the isbn of hp
03:23 qiqo then i tried harry potter
03:23 chris the little popup windows comes up, but never gets any results?
03:25 qiqo none
03:25 qiqo no results found
03:25 qiqo and i dont get any popup windo
03:25 chris umm you should thats were the results show up in
03:26 chris so you go to add biblio, choose add new biblio?
03:26 qiqo no popups :(
03:26 qiqo yeah
03:27 chris you end up with at a page with a bunch of fields
03:27 qiqo yeah marc inputs
03:27 chris where you can enter marc into eh?
03:27 qiqo tags etc..
03:27 qiqo yup
03:27 chris and you entered stuff in the isbn one?
03:27 chris and hit z3950 search?
03:27 qiqo errmm.. y ou are actually adding a new book then right?
03:28 qiqo i need the Z3950 feature...
03:28 chris no
03:28 chris thats how the z3950 works
03:29 chris there is a z3950 search button on that page
03:29 qiqo ahhh
03:29 chris that should open a popup and start searching servers
03:29 qiqo yeah
03:30 qiqo still no results found
03:30 chris if you are lucky you get some results that you can then click on the record, and it will populate your table
03:30 chris does it say ?? requests to go
03:30 chris and does the log say anything now
03:31 qiqo
03:31 qiqo ah sorry
03:31 qiqo Still ?? requests to go <--i get this
03:31 chris right
03:31 chris i get stuff like this in my log
03:32 chris @attr 1=4 "freakonomics" at /usr/local/koha/intranet/script​s/z3950daemon/processz3950queue line 279.    
03:32 chris 2007/86 : Processing title=freakonomics at MONASH voyager MARC21 (1 forks)
03:32 qiqo i only get blank logs
03:33 qiqo 0B in size
03:33 chris hmm, well i gotta go sorry. Hopefully some of the other ppl can help
03:34 qiqo aww..
03:34 qiqo huhu :'(
03:34 chris 8.30 here, and i should spend some time with my wife .. before i get banned from the computer
03:34 chris :)
03:34 qiqo heheh
03:34 qiqo alright
03:34 qiqo thank you very much sir
03:35 qiqo these would help
03:35 chris no problem, good luck with it
03:40 qiqo hayz...
03:53 qiqo hmmm
04:03 qiqo ei i have a question, in 2.2.5 do we still need the API2:PDF v 0.3r77??
04:04 paul yep qiqo
04:04 qiqo or any version of API2::PFF will do?
04:04 paul no
04:04 qiqo errm.. does perl stil host the file?
04:05 qiqo ok ill start googling
04:05 qiqo hehe :)
04:12 qiqo hi ozmoze!!
04:12 qiqo oh hes gone
04:39 paul toins_: tu as vu[…]-ADSL-Orange.html
04:40 toins_ paul: je regarde
04:40 toins_ ah oui... nous l'avons vécu cette pane !
04:41 paul ca confirme que c'était bien général et coté wanamou
04:43 toins_ yep
07:14 paul toins_: are u around ?
07:15 toins_ yep
07:15 toins_ i'm here
08:03 paul hdl around ?
08:52 paul hello agains, everybody
08:52 paul is kados around or still away ?
08:52 tumer hi paul
08:52 paul hi tumer
08:52 dewey i heard hi tumer was still strugling
08:53 tumer yes dewey and still
08:53 paul aren't you too disappointed by ID answer (about merging data results)
08:53 tumer very much
08:53 tumer so we have to keep holdings data in biblios
08:54 tumer my mistake was i misssed this and finished the writing of whole new API for it ready to go
08:55 paul :-(
08:55 paul sorry for you
08:56 tumer i wish i knew some xml xsl and xslt
09:34 slef Hello all!
09:34 paul hi slef
09:35 slef Finally I stop doing VOIP and VPN and can get back on web sites more-or-less full-time.
09:36 slef Soon I will need to update my Koha installation to be useful again.  Should I aim for rel_2_6 or HEAD?
09:37 paul good question. depends on what you plan to do.
09:38 paul head and/or dev_week are definetly for w@rl0rds developpers.
09:38 slef priorities: get a working koha, fix the installer
09:39 slef (as in fix the new installer)
09:39 paul so, rel_2_2
09:47 kados paul: I've replied to your email
09:47 kados hi all
09:47 paul kados, yes, i've seen & read the mail.
09:47 paul I had a question for you, about your recent commit :
09:47 kados paul:
09:47 paul it's about, once again.
09:48 kados paul: don't know if you've seen this report or not
09:48 paul it don't work anymore, with NPL or default templates.
09:48 kados yep
09:48 kados addbiblio--
09:48 paul with default, I have an empty screen & with NPL, authority report don't work anymore.
09:48 paul addbibio-- ???
09:49 kados I'm very sorry
09:49 kados it's never worked correctly for MARC21 records
09:49 paul do you mean MARC21 or npl templates ?
09:49 kados but I seem to have broken your stuff in my attempt to fix
09:49 kados MARC21
09:50 paul imho, addbiblio is a proof that we must use only 1 set of templates in Koha.
09:50 kados yep
09:50 paul could you explain your problems ?
09:50 paul I could revert your commit & try to fix them myself
09:51 kados you can revert my latest commit
09:51 kados it was  mistake
09:51 kados a mistake even
09:51 kados I can show you the problems when you do revert it
09:52 paul OK, i'll revert immediatly, let me 10mn to finish what i'm working on, and then I revert.
09:52 kados k, ping me when done
09:52 paul + look at my today commits, I think i've solved some/few acquisition problems you reported on koha226bugs
09:52 paul (the receive one at least)
10:09 owen kados, you around?
10:12 kados owen: sure am
10:12 kados owen: glad to see you back :-)
10:12 owen I came in to find a note saying the internet was up and down all day yesterday, so who knows how long I'll be back
10:12 kados owen: just going through our todo list
10:13 kados owen: 100 is still in sync with dev_week
10:13 owen zoomopac?
10:13 dewey zoomopac is probably stock dev-week with only minor changes to searching soon to be committed
10:13 kados owen: yea
10:13 kados owen: just added isbn search
10:15 owen The "most recent additions" search doesn't seem to be working
10:15 kados hmmm ...
10:16 kados they might not all work
10:16 kados DVD does though
10:16 kados and by work, I mean that it relies on what's in the record
10:16 kados and in some cases, the date is listed as 2099-x-x
10:16 kados more preprocessing for me to do and it's on my list already
10:17 kados eg:[…]
10:17 kados date acquired is: 202004-02-04
10:17 kados which is obviouly more recent than anything with 2006- :-)
10:17 slef Got a strange problem with z39.50 search in a 2.2.5 system - everything is returning "Nothing found" even if the daemon finds it.  I'll read the debug log once I return in a bit, but any tips welcome.
10:18 kados slef: using Net::Z3950? or Net::Z3950::ZOOM?
10:18 slef owen: hi, by the way.
10:18 slef kados: whatever's default.  Net::Z3950?
10:19 kados slef: your best bet on that is upgrading to Net::Z3950::ZOOM and grabbing the latest code from rel_2_2
10:19 kados slef: troubleshooting the 2.2.5 version has been known to drive one mad
10:21 kados owen: the queries on all those are correct
10:21 kados owen: so if they don't work as expected, look to the record
10:21 kados well, it's a problem we can fix :-)
10:22 kados why call number sorting isn't working has got me stumped
10:23 kados owen: 'fix the “bold_titleâ€� in search results page'
10:23 kados owen: is that where the search query used to be hilighted?
10:23 owen Yeah, that was a long time ago.
10:24 owen (in dev_week terms)
10:24 kados owen: well, I can add it back, just tell me what you want the term to be wrapped in
10:24 kados owen: a span?
10:24 kados with a specific clas?
10:24 kados class even
10:24 kados <span class="term"></span> maybe?
10:25 owen Sure, why not
10:26 kados k ...
10:28 owen So kados bring me up to date on what you've been working on.
10:29 kados sure
10:29 kados mainly, over the weekend, I worked on the OPAC
10:30 kados my goal was to clean up all the OPAC scripts and remove all redundent/obsolete data
10:30 kados and fulfil some of the usability feedback I've gotten from various places
10:31 owen Like what?
10:31 kados well, I've gotten numerous comments that all account-related stuff should be in one place
10:31 kados or at least in one area
10:32 kados several people didn't understand why the book bag link was above search results
10:32 kados they expected it to be in the 'account' section
10:33 kados several clients also didn't understand why there were so many of the same link on a given page
10:33 kados the 'Search Home' link on
10:34 owen Book bags aren't tied to accounts
10:34 kados is also called 'library catalog'
10:34 kados in the opacnav
10:34 kados which several people found confusing
10:34 kados I agree book bags aren't tied to accounts
10:35 kados but conceptually, that's where people seem to want them
10:35 kados at least based on the feedback I solicited
10:35 owen It's getting into shaky territory, because we can't lead people to believe that the book bag is saved with their account settings.
10:35 kados I cleaned up all the opac scripts to use the new API (hopefully didn't miss anything)
10:36 kados added a resident search to the masthead that should show up on all screens
10:36 kados modified how the searchdesc displays
10:37 kados 'search' returned X results is always resident but not a large thematic element
10:37 kados added a rss feed icon
10:37 owen How does that work?
10:37 kados floated the re-sort list to the right to free up space
10:37 kados the rss relies on the OpenSearch plugin I haven't committed yet
10:38 kados so the feed is actually generated from (though we can generate feeds natively ... I just didn't get around to it)
10:38 kados s/
10:38 kados lets see ...
10:38 kados opac-main has had a complete facelift
10:39 kados in preperation for a couple features I've been working on
10:39 kados they are:
10:39 owen opac-main seems to be empty!
10:39 kados yep
10:39 kados 1. 4-5 items related to items you've previously checked out
10:40 kados 2. 4-5 items pulled from a given staff list (virtual shelf)
10:40 kados 3. 4-5 items recently returned
10:40 kados so the idea was, make the main page more interactive
10:41 kados if they need to do a search, they can do it from any page
10:41 kados advanced search is always visible (in opacnav)
10:41 kados and then there's the new facets feature
10:42 owen Is that in an iframe?
10:42 kados (before I get to that ...
10:42 kados no iframe
10:42 owen Just overflow?
10:42 kados yea, it's overflow
10:43 kados the content is in javascript
10:43 kados yep, you'll get that
10:43 kados I turned on overflow: auto to enable that
10:43 kados because sometimes the list goes beyond the space designated
10:45 kados all of my design choices were made from looking at the following sites:
10:46 kados
10:46 kados
10:46 kados
10:46 kados
10:46 kados
10:47 kados as well as the 'don't make me think' book
10:48 kados as far as facets go
10:49 paul kados, could you explain me what "facets" means pls ?
10:49 kados paul: if you do a search, the faceted results are those listed on the left-hand side under 'Subject' Authors' 'series'
10:50 kados paul: it is a compilation of all of a given aspect of the results
10:50 kados paul: such as subject, author, etc.
10:50 kados owen: so facets ...
10:51 kados will be completely re-written from a functional POV
10:51 kados probably to follow the FAST guidelines:
10:51 kados as far as display, I plan to only show the first 3-5
10:52 owen 3-5 what?
10:52 dewey -2
10:52 kados and hide the rest within a final one called 'see X more'
10:52 owen Thanks dewey!
10:52 kados 3-5 of each type of facet
10:52 kados so for instance, a search on neal stephenson
10:52 kados has:
10:52 kados Subjects
10:52 dewey Subjects are authority controlled
10:52 kados Scientists
10:52 kados Treasure trove
10:53 kados Kings and rules
10:53 kados See 25 more
10:53 kados Series
10:53 kados The Baroque cycle
10:53 kados Volume two of The Baroque cycle
10:53 kados A Bandam spectra book.
10:53 kados Authors
10:53 kados Stephenson, Neal
10:54 kados that way, the user won't have to scroll down to see that there are multiple types of facets
10:54 kados the final thing I did was the 'remove search' and 'further limit search to'
10:54 kados and the 'default facets'
10:55 kados default facets show up when there hasn't been a search
10:55 kados the others allow refining the current search to include additional characteristics
10:55 kados well ... 'Further limit' does
10:56 kados (and only works with CCL queries at the moment)
10:56 kados well ... that's enough to fill a book :-)
10:57 kados owen: comments, questions?
10:57 paul kados : reverted. http://i5.bureau.paulpoulain.c[…]mple/ works (login test/test)
10:57 kados paul: did you change templates too?
10:57 kados paul: or are they stock cvs?
10:57 paul mmm... the default templates are OK
10:57 paul npl ones are not.
10:58 kados I suspect MARC21 doesn't work in default templates
10:58 kados I will test that first
10:58 kados using default
10:58 paul but I haven't MARC21 DB
10:58 paul (if you have a small one, throw me a link to DL it)
10:58 kados ok
10:59 owen How is 'remove search' supposed to work?
10:59 kados owen: you click on it and it takes you back to the advanced search page :-)
10:59 kados owen: it's pretty minimal at the moment
11:00 kados owen: but eventually I'd like it to be a search history
11:00 kados owen: I'm not 100% sure that the js hierarchy is the best way to do that
11:00 kados owen: but it was pretty quick for a prototype mechanism
11:02 paul kados : http://i8.bureau.paulpoulain.c[…]mple/ is now UNIMARC with NPL templates (login test/test as well)
11:04 owen kados: my instinct is to say that the js hierarchy is too complex for our users
11:04 owen Particularly when the 'nodes' hardly ever contain more than one item each
11:04 kados owen: well that will change
11:07 owen How so?
11:09 kados well ... I can't explain the specifics because I haven't figured it out completely
11:09 owen :)
11:09 kados thd and I spent a good deal of the weekend pondering LC subjects
11:10 kados they present some pretty interesting puzzles :-)
11:10 kados owen: there were 5 original proposed ways to nest a given subject in a hierarchy:
11:10 kados
11:10 kados and now we discovered OCLC's FAST project
11:11 kados so that's a 6th that I haven't taken the time to discect yet
11:11 kados but one of those 6 will be used
11:11 thd kados: and Chan used a non-LC heading as an example
11:12 kados thd: right ...
11:12 thd kados: so I have erred in the absence of an authority file
11:13 kados thd: to err is human :-)
11:13 kados :-)
11:14 owen I like the 'narrow results by' options on the NCSU site
11:15 owen But I'm confused about what we're trying to do with facets...expand or narrow or both?
11:15 thd kados: there are still 5 examples did you mean 5?
11:15 kados good question
11:15 kados thd: the sixth is FAST from OCLC
11:15 kados owen: good question
11:15 thd kados: what I am hoping we would do is change
11:15 thd kados: FAST does nothing for legacy records
11:16 kados thd: good point
11:16 kados owen: well, I think for the OPAC, expanding is probably the goal
11:16 kados owen: for the Intranet, I think staff will want narrowing
11:16 kados owen: so both :-)
11:16 thd kados: FAST is a system for how records might be subject coded when none of the cataloguers know how to subject code any longer
11:17 kados thd: that description fits NPL :-)
11:18 owen I like that the NCSU sidebar: is a simple list; has limited results for each facet; has a 'show more' link
11:18 thd kados: the problem with FAST is that all subject strings are very short so there is no way to specify the two narrow questions that a work may treat
11:19 kados owen: yep, we could do it that way
11:19 kados owen: the js was just for fast prototyping
11:19 owen I also like the way NCSU handles the narrowing process: you can delete the additional search terms by clicking an X in the results screen
11:19 kados owen: and I think they use FAST for display, or a subset of it
11:19 thd kados: when everything is top level you have no way to associate which strings belong together.
11:20 thd kados: FAST is subject soup.
11:20 kados owen: where is that?
11:21 thd kados: LCSH are a mess but a reasonably precise mess.
11:21 owen Above the search results:
11:21 owen "Search 'something': Early works to 1800 [remove] : England [remove] : Doctrines [remove]
11:21 owen We found 2 matching items. "
11:21 kados owen: I also like the sutle use of color for checked out vs available
11:21 kados owen: ahh, very nice, I see it now
11:21 kados owen: we could easily do that
11:24 owen I think the Queens Library search is way too complex
11:27 owen kados: How can I best be of help?
11:33 thd owen: what is too complex about a search that is too simplistic?
11:34 owen What do you mean thd?
11:34 thd owen: I would agree that it is not intuitive
11:35 thd owen: I think the progressive hierarchy of subject subdivisions implied by the Queens library search is mistaken
11:35 kados owen: paul has just fixed addbiblio in rel_2_2
11:36 kados owen: so one thing we need to do is sync default and npl templates
11:36 owen Okay.
11:36 thd owen: I think that the search should be faceted by place topic time and form
11:38 thd owen: I think that such subject elements from the same facet should be grouped together in the same facet for extending the search
11:39 thd owen: I suspect that kados will not go so far as adding the facility to browse for other terms to use in the same facet but I will in future
11:43 tumer hi all
11:44 tumer kados:i am in pain with mikes answer
11:44 kados tumer: I can imagine :(
11:45 tumer so no more holdings records
11:45 kados tumer: even if we stored them in the same db with different indexing rules
11:45 kados tumer: I think two queries is too many :(
11:46 tumer i am reverting back to dev_week
11:46 paul the next question being : does it mean we forget storing the issues informations in zebra too ?
11:46 tumer paul:no
11:46 tumer we already do that
11:47 paul but it seems updating biblio + item for each issue/return is too much CPU consumming isn't it ?
11:47 paul s/seems/seemed/
11:47 kados it might be
11:47 kados plus in dev week, we do:
11:47 kados * store in items table
11:47 tumer that is another matter i am investigating
11:47 kados * store in zebra
11:47 kados so two operations with each circ, rather than just one
11:48 tumer waiting to see if it is windows issue only
11:48 paul store in items or issues table ?
11:48 kados tumer: waiting to see if what is windows issue only?
11:48 paul in 2.2, it's just in issues & calculated on the fly
11:48 kados paul: sorry, issues
11:48 paul ah, ok.
11:49 kados if we want to search by availability, we must store in zebra
11:49 kados and several clients want this feature
11:49 kados so the next question is: how can we speed up saving records to zebra?
11:49 paul by doing a commit only once every 10mn with shadow DB, iirc
11:49 kados one idea I had was to do a batch 'commit' operation once every 5 minutes or so
11:50 kados paul: you beat me :-)
11:50 paul so, no more commit in koha, but in crontab.
11:50 kados right ... one possible solution
11:50 paul sounds like an accepatble plan to me.
11:50 kados but it should be a syspref
11:50 kados IMO
11:50 kados because code already exists to commit with every operation
11:50 paul I agree, because for small libraries it won't be a problem
11:51 kados right
11:51 paul (or for large ones, with a few circ)
11:51 kados yep
11:51 kados and for libraries where accuracy is more important than speed
11:51 paul so I was right when I heard the systempref crying, 5mn ago ;-)
11:51 kados :-)
11:51 tumer i already added a batch commit sysypref
11:52 paul tumer is faster than lucky luke
11:52 paul (if you know this cartoon)
11:52 tumer yep
11:52 tumer but my pistol is aching today
11:53 thd owen, kados: see Norgad et. al.  The Online catalog : from technical services to access service. In Advances in librarianship. v. 17.
11:54 thd the title does not do justice to the content
11:54 kados heh
11:56 kados thd: I will probably not have time to work on facets today
11:56 kados thd: maybe later this evening or tomorrow
11:56 thd kados: well later this evening or tomorrow would be good
11:56 kados thd: :-)
11:59 paul bye bye everybody, see you on thursday

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