IRC log for #koha, 2006-06-28

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:16 kados sorry ... booth is getting busy
12:17 kados well I tried out the acqui system this morning
12:17 kados I attempted to create an order
12:17 kados and to recieve
12:17 kados and it just didn't work :)
12:17 kados let me bring up the test
12:18 kados ok
12:18 kados so first off ... the 'created by' doesn't work
12:18 kados I think, at least according to the directions, in order to create a basket, you hav to enter a name
12:18 kados which should show up in 'created by'
12:19 kados when I recieve
12:19 kados it generates a receipt
12:19 kados but it doesn't have the 'recieved by' or 'date'
12:19 kados and it says '0 bibliographic records recieved)
12:19 kados and doesn't show up in the order history
12:20 kados (I always get '0 orders foudn')
12:41 kados owen: is that enough or do you need more details?
12:42 owen So first you created a supplier, then you created a new basket for that supplier...
12:42 owen I know that several items are blank on the "New Shopping Basket for..." page (
12:46 owen ...but that's the same with the default templates as well
12:48 kados owen: maybe we need to file a 'blocker' bug report to get paul's attention
12:49 owen But what's the next stage where you see a problem?
13:18 thd kados: are you there?
13:36 kados thd: intermittently
13:36 thd kados: how have you observations of other systems been going?
13:38 kados thd: the only thing sirsidynix has is 'rooms'
13:38 kados thd: which is just a way to organize subjects togther
13:38 kados thd: with a fancy name :-)
13:38 kados thd: nobody else seems to be doing anything new, they're mainly selling old technology
13:38 thd kados: Koha has far and away the best record editor and will have the best search system.
13:38 kados yep
13:39 thd kados: However, there is one thing other systems might have for record editing
13:39 thd kados: see if you can find anyone doing anything interesting with adding or managing holdings information for records.
13:40 thd kados: especially serials, and built in automated cuttering.
13:42 thd kados: there is a bug in the 008 plugin but I will tell you about that later.
13:46 thd kados: I know other big systems are very unlikely to have interesting record editors except possibly for the issue of holdings.  So look at what people may be doing with holdings.
13:49 thd kados: Interesting holdings management probably does not use the record editor interface on other systems, as other systems would lack a general plugin model but with a special holdings interface other systems might have something..
13:50 tumer hi everybody
13:50 thd hellos tumer is that really you?
13:50 tumer yes live and kicking
13:50 thd tumer: If you read the logs you may note that Kados has fixed the record editor.
13:51 tumer i did not see any commits ???
13:51 tumer is kados around?
13:52 thd tumer: unfortunately, pauls fixes had not been well tested and reverted to some old problems along with new ones.
13:52 thd tumer: kados is here but he is busy with the ALA convention so that he has not had time to commit
13:52 tumer i realized that i am staying with the old editor anyway
13:53 thd tumer: the old editor is safer, the new one has hidden bugs waiting to bite
13:55 thd tumer: I am editing records on a client system for kados and have seen no real problems except for a bug in the 008 plugin.
13:55 tumer thd: the authorities does not fill the multiple subfields either
13:56 thd tumer: there has been no work on the authorities record editor
13:56 tumer ie. the 150x authority may have multiple x's but only one gets transfred to the marc record in edittor
13:57 thd tumer: kados was going to fix the authorities editor after everything was working in the bibliographic record editor.
13:58 tumer the bug in 008? what dowes it do
13:58 thd tumer: the authorities record editor has very large bugs that will eat authorities records.
13:59 thd tumer: you probably have 2 bugs in your 008 plugin
13:59 tumer i dont use it anyway
14:00 thd tumer: the older bug would forget the type of date in some circumstances
14:02 thd tumer: the older bug is fixed in head but one that I have just noticed loses the date of record creation if blank and shifts all positions six places to the left
14:03 tumer very bad indeed
14:04 thd tumer: 008 is a fixed field so if the places are shifted the field is invalid but it is very identifiable correctable in records in which it may have occurred
14:07 thd tumer: if the first position in an 008 is not digit either no record creation date information was encoded or the record has been affected by this bug.
14:08 thd s/record/008/
14:23 kados hi guys
14:23 kados hey tumer
14:23 tumer hi kados
14:23 kados I'm in and out today ... ALA conference
14:24 kados tumer: did you manage to get M::F::X working for you?
14:24 tumer which day are you free?
14:24 kados I can make some time in a few hours
14:24 kados if you need to chat
14:24 kados evenings are pretty good
14:24 kados otherwise, I don't get back until the 28th
14:25 tumer probably have to problems with MFX persisssssst
14:26 kados bummer
14:26 kados so ...
14:26 tumer i am modifying everything very deeply so we may as well discuss at one point
14:26 kados 1. you're using libxml2 and XML::LibXML (versions that don't conflict, you ready the XML::LibXML README?)
14:27 kados 2. you are working with true UTF-8 records with utf-8 encoding (not just claiming to be utf8)
14:27 kados ?
14:27 tumer most of editor problems problems appear with MFX and nothing else
14:27 tumer kados: i use correct versions
14:27 tumer the problem is non conflicting versions are very old
14:28 tumer its almost impossible for me to go that back with libxml2
14:28 tumer otherwise everything else may break down on the server including zebra
14:29 kados unless you are using explicitally 'compatible' versions of the two, as specified in the README, I'm sure you're going to have problems
14:29 kados can't you do some tests on your laptop?
14:29 tumer i have tried every combination of compatibles
14:30 tumer converting to and back from MARC8 to UTF8 works very well
14:30 kados so where do the problems come in?
14:31 tumer but perl decides to show unencoded characters on the screen ie in templates
14:32 kados hmmm
14:32 tumer anything coming from keyboard or in the template gets mingled while anything from db or zebra is correct
14:32 kados is that the only bug?
14:32 kados can you send me some example records so I can test on my system?
14:32 kados ones that you're having probs with?
14:32 tumer i'll put some on my server
14:32 kados thx
14:33 kados ping me with the url when they're there
14:33 tumer ok
14:34 tumer the other problem is characters stay combined when converted from MARC8
14:35 tumer they display correctly but i cannot find them in zebra
14:35 tumer my keyboard does not produce combined chars is that the problem?
14:37 thd tumer: your keyboard will not produce the correct characters unle4ss you have a UTF -8 environment
14:38 tumer thd:not exactly
14:38 tumer the problem is having 2 different definitions for chars in utf8
14:39 thd tumer: MS Windows is never a UTF-8 environment as far as I know but some language sets for character creation or special applications may output UTF-8
14:40 tumer ç is a utf8 character with an x00x00 (cant remember) hex code in utf8
14:40 thd tumer: do you mean there a multiple Unicode encodings for the same Turkish character?
14:40 tumer the same character is also c and a cedilla combined together
14:41 tumer they look exactly the same
14:41 tumer but to delete the last one you have to hit backspace twice
14:42 tumer this is how windows is behaving
14:42 tumer so in utf8 we have precomposed and uncomposed characters
14:42 thd tumer: I do not know the case of Turkish but I have read that Unicode does have multiple encodings for some characters in some languages.
14:43 tumer this is the same for all acented characters Turkish or not
14:43 thd tumer: what does precomposed and uncomposed mean?
14:44 tumer i dont even know whether the terminology is right either
14:45 tumer i read about this problem at indexdata YAZ logs
14:45 thd tumer: Is that where the terminology is from?
14:45 tumer and now i have the same problem
14:45 tumer yes there i saw this terminology
14:47 thd tumer: I think I will have to Google now for precomposed and uncomposed to understand the problem that you are expressing
14:58 thd tumer: I know the familiar concept that precomposed means now but I had not seen the terminology with enough frequency
14:58 thd tumer: I have not found a definition for uncomposed
14:59 thd tumer: how do you mean uncomposed?
15:01 tumer thd: there is no terminology as uncomposed i used it for reverese of precomposed. meaning not combined together
15:02 kados tumer: re-indexing with your records now
15:02 kados tumer: it'll be a few minutes
15:03 kados tumer: I'll let you know as soon as it's done
15:03 thd tumer: uncomposed is in a Unicode paper but the server with the paper is not responding
15:03 tumer if characters come out right search the words with those chars
15:05 thd tumer: precomposed characters are characters used to combine two or more standard characters to create a special character.
15:08 thd tumer: MARC-8 use and other ISO library character encodings use precomposition for most Latin languages with an ASCII character and an ASCII modifier to form an accented Latin character.
15:09 tumer thd: yes i know and MFX converts them and keeps them like that on my machine
15:10 thd tumer: Do you mean that after M::F::X conversion they are the same?
15:10 tumer by the way it may be normal. But i need a routine to combine them to thair single character form in utf8
15:11 tumer thd:no they are converted correctly to utf8 precomposed format
15:11 tumer thd i need to compse them
15:12 thd tumer: Is your problem only about searching or also how the characters are encoded in the records?
15:12 thd s/searching/composing characters for searching/
15:12 tumer about searching
15:13 thd tumer: so your records are fine then?
15:14 tumer thd: they look fine but not the same to what i can produce with the marc editor
15:14 tumer
15:15 tumer thd:try these
15:15 tumer they are from LC
15:15 thd tumer: composing characters for searching will require a layer of code to process the input from whatever the user has input into the search form and convert the input from whatever it starts as to UTF-8.
15:16 thd tumer: composing characters for the record editor is another problem.
15:16 tumer thd:is this correct for everybody or for windows people i wonder
15:17 thd tumer: if you are attempting to create characters for the record editor that may be a problem for MS-Windows unless there is some way in the latest version to switch to UTF-8 mode.
15:20 thd tumer: Maybe it is merely more complex to test the input encoding for the record editor.
15:20 thd tumer: Newly created records would be an easier case where the input encoding could well be tested.
15:21 tumer thd:i have to attend the server - be back
15:44 kados tumer[A]:
15:44 dewey hmmm... is working now wher do i look
15:44 kados tumer[A]: give it a try
15:45 tumer[A] ok
15:47 tumer kados: is not available
15:47 tumer points to some local IP
15:48 chris how bout that then tumer?
15:49 tumer hi chris
15:50 tumer searhing in simple mode crashes
15:50 tumer searching in power does not find it
19:08 thd kados: what happened with tumer's record searching problem?
02:05 btoumi hi all
02:16 Strait morning :)
02:18 btoumi hi strait
02:18 btoumi :paul are u around
02:18 btoumi ?
02:18 paul yep. hello everybody
02:18 btoumi hi :paul
02:20 hdl hello
02:23 ToinS salut tous !
02:23 btoumi do u remember last time i ask u for a field (null or not) i have the same problem  title,phone and i do the same
02:23 btoumi salut toins
02:23 paul btoumi: yep.
02:23 btoumi is it ok?
02:24 btoumi ok thanks
02:26 btoumi_away i commit updatabase today
02:33 paul plein de francais ce matin ...
02:33 osmoze hello
03:28 Strait bugger
03:29 Strait Z39.50 broke down :(
03:29 Strait doesn't work with my translated templates
03:32 Strait hmm, it doesn't work properly with english npl templates either
03:32 Strait with default templates it works
03:34 paul then you should bug owen.
03:34 paul (hello Strait
03:34 paul )
03:35 Strait hi paul :)
03:36 Strait owen?
03:36 dewey somebody said owen was hardly ever in direct contact with kados. We communicate here.
03:36 paul owen is the npl templates designer
03:36 Strait there are some other bugs in them too
03:37 Strait i've managed to fix some of them
03:37 Strait but some of them beat me
03:55 Strait where can i reach this owen person?
03:55 Strait it would be nice to talk to him
03:55 Strait and i have some fixes for his templates too, like i said
03:56 paul Strait: owen is from US, and usually appears on the chanel in US morning
03:56 paul (you're from finland isn't it ?)
04:04 Strait yep
04:04 Strait so it's in the middle of the night for me :D
04:04 Strait or something
04:04 dewey rumour has it something is not recognising the value actually in the leader
04:04 paul so owen should arrive in 6/7 hours
04:05 paul kidding dewey ;-D
04:05 Strait ah, ok
04:05 Strait that's not the middle of the night then
04:05 paul not really. owen & kados are in Ohio, so east US
04:06 Strait ok, i'll try to meet him later then
04:06 Strait i could use the default templates for now since z39.50 works in them
04:07 Strait the problem is that it's next to impossible to fit finnish words in them
04:07 Strait although finnish versions do exist
04:08 Strait they speak very bad finnish ;)
04:57 Rachel it's busy today in #koha
04:57 paul hi Rachel
04:59 rach hi paul, are you all recovered from the conference?
04:59 paul you mean the devWeek ?
04:59 paul of, fortunatly !
04:59 paul my main concern atm, is my personal move (next saturday)
04:59 rach yes
04:59 rach are you moving house?
05:01 paul yep
05:01 paul from marseille to marseille.
05:01 paul but from 80m2 to 120m2
05:02 rach wow you have 3 boys don't you? I bet you'll appreciate the extra room :-)
05:03 osmoze paul, au fait, les videos sont dispo quelque part ?
05:03 osmoze de la kohaconf
05:04 paul osmoze: ask rach !
05:04 osmoze rach, is it possible to download the kohaconf video ?
05:05 rach yes I would think so
05:05 chris ?
05:05 chris i dont think so yet
05:05 osmoze hi chris :)
05:05 chris russ hasnt converted it
05:06 chris its still on the dvd's as far as i know, i can hurry him up for ya
05:06 chris hi osmoze :)
05:06 rach sorry osmoze I misinterpreted that
05:07 osmoze it's nothing rach :) it's my bad english ^^
05:07 rach ah no, I had about 3 hrs sleep last night and i'm not wearing my glasses :-)
05:07 osmoze chris, if he want, after my hollidays, i can do the conversion
05:08 osmoze lol, that why i don't have children at this moment :)
05:08 chris ahh cool, ill tell him that
05:08 osmoze ok, i ll be back on 20th july
05:08 paul chris: remember we have long holidays in France ;-)
05:09 osmoze long ? 2 week only ^^
05:09 chris :)
05:09 osmoze so, go to lunch
05:10 rach much better for you than eating a pie at your keyboard
05:19 rach have a good day
05:19 paul bye rach
05:19 chris paul, will france beat spain?
05:20 paul that's a good question...
05:20 paul I hope yes, of course.
05:20 chris brazil 3 - ghana 1
05:20 chris france 2 - spain 1
05:20 paul sounds ok to me ;-)
05:20 chris :)
06:29 osmoze france 1 - spain 1
06:29 osmoze brazil 3 - ghana 0
07:03 btoumi_away france 0 espagne 1
07:05 osmoze t es defaitiste btoumi
07:08 btoumi_away non mais avec les match q'a fait la france je vois plus ca et en plus l'equipe d'espagne n'est pas mauvaise c pas le togo
07:08 paul pour ma part, je ne ferai jamais de pronostic, c'est par trop imprévisible le foot !
07:08 btoumi_away c clair aussi
07:08 paul btoumi_away: pas faux, mais en même temps, 1 but c'est si vite marqué !
07:09 paul et puis vu l'arbitrage jusqu'à maintenant, ca introduit une incertitude supplémentaire ;-)
07:09 btoumi_away clair
07:09 btoumi_away c beaucopup plus stricte qu'avant c sur
07:09 paul + strict ?
07:10 btoumi_away l'arbitrage
07:10 paul je dirai surtout que c'est une vraie faillite l'arbitrage !
07:10 paul cartons à gogo injustifiés, buts refusés, pénalties imaginaire
07:10 btoumi_away non mais y a des nouvelles regles
07:10 btoumi_away du coup pluie de carton jaune
07:11 btoumi_away peut etre in peu trop a mon gout
07:13 ToinS vive l'arbritrage vidéo !
07:13 btoumi_away de ctoute facon je pense que la france sera pas en finale
07:13 ToinS et même plus l'arbritrage informatisé....
07:13 btoumi_away et oui la video c bien mais platini veut pas
07:14 paul oui, mais être élminé en 1/4 contre le brésil, ca la fout - mal qu'ne 8° contre l'espagne !
07:14 btoumi_away c juste un match de plus
07:14 btoumi_away ;=)
07:15 btoumi_away en tous c toujours mieux qu'il y a quatre ans
07:20 btoumi_away hi dewey
07:20 dewey niihau, btoumi_away
07:22 btoumi_away niihau?
07:23 hdl bonjour en japonais.
07:24 hdl niihau mai.
07:27 ToinS dewey parle japonnais ?
07:27 dewey toins: no idea
08:11 thd tumer[A]: are you there?
08:58 slef hi all.  I've been told 'Library Trends' attributed koha to Australia. Anyone get that and/or anyone else want to correct it?
10:05 paul hello owen.
10:05 paul I was speaking with Strait this morning.
10:05 owen Hi paul
10:06 paul he finds some bugs in npl templates, and wanted to report them.
10:06 owen Yes, I saw something in the logs yesterday
10:06 owen Is Strait here now?
10:06 paul i suggested to come here in our european afternoon
10:06 paul he should come back i think
10:08 owen paul, you didn't by any chance hear anything from kados about full acquisitions did you?
10:08 paul no, I didn't
10:08 paul I just hear that he founded some problems, but I don't know which one
10:09 kados hi guys
10:09 kados paul: do you have a 'empty' rel_2_2 install?
10:10 paul hi kados.
10:10 kados paul: try to create a vendor, and an order, and a basket
10:10 kados lots of information doesn't show up in the templates
10:10 kados like who created it
10:10 kados and when you try to recieve an order
10:10 kados (/me wishes)
10:10 paul "booth babes" ???
10:11 tumer kados:have you indexed my records? your search does not find them
10:12 kados tumer: they didn't index because they don't have 090 :-)
10:12 kados tumer: I need to write a script to add a 090 before I can index them
10:12 kados paul: when you try to recieve an order, it won't recieve it
10:12 tumer they are straight from LC i'll add 090 for them
10:13 kados paul: it never shows up in the order history
10:13 kados tumer: ok ...
10:13 paul ok, i'll investigate, but that will be after my move
10:13 kados ok, no prob :-)
10:15 slef I heard ALA has right-wing nutjobs defending the war in Iraq
10:17 kados slef: you would have heard that :-)
10:17 kados slef: i haven't seen it :-)
10:18 paul a quick question to everybody reading the channel
10:18 tumer kados:you mat have them at
10:18 paul i've been contacted by a computer paper ("programmation linux" = "linux programming"). They want me to write a paper, something like 20/25 pages.
10:19 paul it will be :
10:19 paul - very poorly paid (25¤/page)
10:19 paul - forbidden to publish it on website
10:19 paul - to be done quickly.
10:19 paul i answered that "quickly" was impossible due to my move. they agreed.
10:20 osmoze paul , write a paper about ?
10:20 paul I answered that the licence was impossible for me, i want to publish it on, even if it's 3 months after physical publication
10:20 paul oups...
10:20 paul it's a paper about "how koha developpement is organised"
10:21 paul (strategic & technically. From Release Manager to Perl coding lines)
10:21 paul my question : do you think it's !
10:21 paul important or not to write in such papers ?
10:21 paul i'm not sure. pierrick says "definetly yes"
10:21 kados tumer: ... imported turkish stuff
10:22 kados paul: it would be in French?
10:22 osmoze forbidden to publish it on website <-- it's not really open ^^ and don't follow idea of koha community
10:22 paul yep.
10:22 kados paul: and available online?
10:22 paul I don't think so
10:22 kados paul: I think they _must_ license it under creative commons or something similar
10:22 kados paul: otherwise, it doesn't make sense
10:22 paul until 3 months after physical publication, where I could publish it myself
10:23 paul that's what I think too.
10:23 paul but it seems it's not what they do usually
10:23 kados tumer: the characters seem to be OK on my system ... do they look OK to you?
10:25 tumer kados: the problem persists and this paul should see too. I'll explain
10:25 paul what could I see tumer ?
10:26 tumer kados:the characters displays correctly
10:26 paul note to everybody : ToinS started working on koha head to do 1 month of code cleaning. We have updated the wiki (coding guidelines & added a page about code cleaning)
10:26 tumer try to search for örneklerle which displays corerctly
10:26 paul feel free to make some suggestions
10:27 tumer you will not find it
10:27 tumer because the character ö is not one character but 2
10:28 tumer also if you copy and paste it in your search on the screen it turns into funny characters
10:29 tumer kados: can you see this record?
10:31 tumer paul:the problem is marc8 to utf8 conversion. I just remembered UniMARC does not use marc8, sorry
10:31 paul kados : a quick question about ToinS goals : do you think we should synch rel_2_2 and head before he start working on code cleaning ?
10:32 paul I think yes
10:32 paul and you also will have to synch dev_week & head, although he won't work on catalogue stuff until some weeks
10:33 tumer paul:dev_week is very differnt to head
10:33 paul yes, I know, but we will have to synch them one day !
10:33 tumer paul:have to decide which to keep
10:33 paul dev_week, definetly !
10:34 thd tumer: can you search your records successfully using terms with ASCII characters only or by copying text from a found record even if it looks odd??
10:34 thd paul: 'booth babes' are attractive women intended to lure convention attendants to what is on offer at a particular booth.  They are usually not a proper part of the sales team but merely an extra advertisement at the convention itself.
10:35 tumer thd:no i cannot. I have to copy the term from the record
10:35 tumer search for yasa at zoomopac.liblime com
10:36 thd paul: papers published in recognised journals are important to establish credibility for Koha.
10:36 tumer then try to search the record with the accented characters that you see
10:37 owen kados: should a z3950 be working on 101?
10:38 tumer owen:official port for Z39.50 is 212 and for zebra is 346 althogh you may use any free port
10:39 owen Sorry tumer, by 101 I'm referring to the IP address of one of NPL's servers
10:39 tumer oh sorry
10:40 tumer owen:do you use much marc8 to utf8 conversion there?
10:40 owen No idea.
10:42 thd tumer: so if it works when copying the text as displayed with the record then the problem is manageable
10:42 tumer thd:no it does not help
10:43 tumer do a search with term "yasa" and get this record. Copy any accented term and paste it into search
10:44 thd tumer: as I actually wrote many months ago in discussing this very issue in this same place we will need a layer of code to translate the encoding of queries from ISO-8859 to UTF-8
10:44 thd tumer: when I copied an accented term it worked fine for me.
10:45 tumer thd:does the term display correctly on the search results?
10:45 thd tumer: does it not work on your system.
10:45 tumer where it says you searched for?
10:46 thd tumer: no but the reason is font problem that I never fixed after spending a weekend exploring it.
10:46 tumer its not a font problem. It destroys rest of my page which contains those characters as well
10:47 thd tumer, owen: the fonts in all templates give priority for fonts which produce gibberish when confronted with accented characters in UTF-8.
10:48 kados owen: not sure about 101 ... definitely on 100 port 9900
10:48 tumer thd:diplaying of utf8 characters IE is rated best and Firefox the worst
10:48 kados tumer: I will try the search
10:49 thd tumer: I experimented on my system and looked at most every common font set on my system to see what worked and what did not one weekend about three months ago.
10:49 kados tumer: I can search for 'Örneklerle ' just fine
10:49 kados tumer: in safari browser
10:50 tumer kados: you can see it all fine so do i
10:50 tumer copy that term and serach for it
10:50 kados i did ... it works fine for me in safari
10:50 kados and in firefox it seems
10:50 tumer look  where it says you searched for
10:50 kados ahh ... yes, I see now
10:51 kados I can tell you what's happening
10:51 kados somewhere along the line
10:51 kados perl is re-encoding utf8 as utf8
10:51 tumer now when this happens all the other turkish caharacters on my tempklate turn to that
10:51 thd tumer: I started to set up some changes to the CSS for the templates but I fell asleep after the first one and had too much work to do so I never committed any changes to the CSS for this problem.
10:52 tumer kados:did you get that. Thats problem 1
10:52 kados tumer: yes, I get that one
10:52 kados tumer: and it should be simple to fix
10:52 kados tumer: it's perl trying to do too much :-)
10:53 kados tumer: there are other problems too?
10:53 tumer 2nd problem. try to delete any of the accented characters
10:53 kados tumer: in the MARC editor?
10:53 thd kados: so this is more than merely the font problem?
10:53 kados thd: yes
10:53 tumer you will notice that you need to backspace rather then one
10:53 kados tumer: I don't have my zebra system adding/editing things yet
10:54 kados tumer: so I can't test that
10:54 tumer kados:copy the search term to search screen and test it there
10:55 thd tumer: if you do not have clients with a UTF-8 environment for the record editor that is a more difficult problem.
10:56 tumer kados:the second problem is more universal. Indexdata at one point decided to solve it
10:57 thd tumer: Code to convert input from 8859 to UTF-8 may be addressed for the record editor but that would only work well for completely new and empty records.
10:57 tumer currently i have written a composing scheme for the Turkish characters only which solves it
10:57 thd tumer: how had Index Data proposed to address the second problem?
10:58 tumer thd:one has to map all precomposed utf8 characters to there composed utf8 state
11:00 thd tumer: however, with your composing scheme do the accented characters typed in an editing session appear as double characters before saving the record?
11:00 tumer thd:no they all appear in their composed state
11:03 thd tumer: Does the user have to enter precomposed characters according to a precomposition scheme that you have devised or just type normally as one would using any Turkish keyboard?
11:04 tumer thd:any keyboard
11:05 thd tumer: so where and how does your code run to implement that?
11:05 tumer after I import records from LC
11:06 tumer thd after marc8 to utf8 conversion you need this. and only then
11:07 thd tumer: but how is your code able to act between keyboard output and browser input?  Have you rewritten the MS Windows keyboard driver?
11:09 tumer thd:i am getting confused here.The problem is marc8 to utf8 conversion and what we andertand from conversion
11:09 thd tumer: also, do you have the record editor refreshing on every character input to show characters in their composed state?
11:10 tumer thd:there is a discussion about this in YAZ list talking about characters and LC
11:10 thd tumer: I am referring to how you have described solving this problem for the record editor where the user does not have a UTF-8 environment.
11:11 tumer thd:i do not. I expect the user to have UNIcode environment by the way which IE acts in
11:12 thd tumer: how does your Turkish character composition system function so that the user can type in a non-UTF-8 environment and see an immediate display as if the environment were UTF-8.
11:12 thd ?
11:13 tumer any accented character from the keyboard in the browser is unicode and composed anyway. No problem there
11:14 tumer any record we produce is utf8 with composed characters
11:14 thd tumer: So Internet explorer is doing the work for you?
11:14 tumer yes IE is in UNICODE environment
11:15 thd tumer: you merely set Internet explorer to UTF-8 and everything is perfect?
11:16 tumer[A] thd:sorry yes verything is perfect in utf8 but perl

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