| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 11:27 |
|
kados |
paul around still? |
| 11:27 |
|
paul |
yep, it's 3PM in france ;-) |
| 11:27 |
|
paul |
hi kados |
| 11:27 |
|
kados |
hi there :-) |
| 11:27 |
|
kados |
how soon will 2.2.5 be out? |
| 11:28 |
|
paul |
christmas gift. or new year gift. |
| 11:28 |
|
kados |
do you have a date set? |
| 11:28 |
|
kados |
ok ... good enough |
| 11:28 |
|
paul |
did you reach my mail to ineo ? |
| 11:31 |
|
kados |
yep |
| 11:31 |
|
kados |
it's very exciting |
| 11:32 |
|
kados |
I hope their developer will touch base with us |
| 11:32 |
|
kados |
instead of just 'doing his own thing' |
| 11:32 |
|
paul |
yep. is your roadmap for 3.0 finished ? |
| 11:32 |
|
kados |
not completely |
| 11:32 |
|
kados |
but it's getting there |
| 11:32 |
|
paul |
i'll take care of this, don't be afraid. |
| 11:32 |
|
kados |
:-) |
| 11:32 |
|
paul |
and they said and said again they didn't plan to fork. |
| 11:32 |
|
kados |
right |
| 11:46 |
|
kados |
paul: what is the upgrade path to HEAD these days |
| 11:46 |
|
paul |
??? |
| 11:46 |
|
kados |
paul: can I skip 2.2.2 and go 2.2.0 to 2.2.4 to HEAD? |
| 11:47 |
|
paul |
yep. |
| 11:47 |
|
kados |
k ... I'm installing a HEAD server today |
| 11:47 |
|
kados |
to help me finalize the roadmap, etc. |
| 11:48 |
|
paul |
did you bug hdl about what he is coding atm ? |
| 11:48 |
|
paul |
(i mean new features, not bugfixes on 2.2) |
| 11:48 |
|
kados |
no I didn't get a chance |
| 11:48 |
|
kados |
what is it? |
| 11:48 |
|
_hdl_ |
yes |
| 11:48 |
|
paul |
joshua, you've got the chance now;-) |
| 11:49 |
|
paul |
explain joshua what you are coding on Head (opac alayahoo...) |
| 11:51 |
|
kados |
_hdl_: yahoo features? |
| 11:52 |
|
_hdl_ |
(tel) |
| 13:09 |
|
paul |
hi owen |
| 13:09 |
|
owen |
Hi paul |
| 13:34 |
|
hdl |
kados |
| 13:34 |
|
hdl |
are you there ? |
| 13:35 |
|
kados |
hdl: yep |
| 13:36 |
|
hdl |
About the OPAC "alayahoo" |
| 13:36 |
|
hdl |
It consists in a Opac Categories browsing. |
| 13:37 |
|
kados |
cool |
| 13:37 |
|
hdl |
It displays number of biblios in relation with this category. |
| 13:38 |
|
hdl |
And when clicking on this number, it would display all the biblios. |
| 13:39 |
|
kados |
is it tied to subject headings? or does it consist of local tags? |
| 13:40 |
|
hdl |
No it is tied to whatever field you would like, for instance itemcallnumber or dewey or lccn. |
| 13:44 |
|
kados |
I mean, how do you pick 'category' |
| 13:44 |
|
kados |
what are the categories? |
| 13:47 |
|
paul |
kados : categories will be 1 MARC field (choosen in systempreferences). usually it will be dewey, sometimes CDU. |
| 13:48 |
|
paul |
and it should work with any classification. |
| 13:48 |
|
kados |
interesting ... so it adds a 'related items' to the OPAC eh? |
| 13:48 |
|
paul |
related items ? |
| 13:48 |
|
kados |
'items related to the one I'm looking at' |
| 13:49 |
|
hdl |
Yes and no. |
| 13:49 |
|
paul |
mmm... good suggestion, I did not had this idea, but it's a good one ! |
| 13:50 |
|
hdl |
It allows to settle sets of biblios and levels between sets. |
| 13:50 |
|
hdl |
That is you can have say ten levels of categories... |
| 13:50 |
|
hdl |
1st level : |
| 13:50 |
|
hdl |
History |
| 13:51 |
|
hdl |
Religion |
| 13:51 |
|
hdl |
Science |
| 13:51 |
|
hdl |
Second level : |
| 13:51 |
|
hdl |
American History |
| 13:51 |
|
hdl |
French History |
| 13:51 |
|
hdl |
Bouddhism |
| 13:51 |
|
hdl |
Catholicism |
| 13:52 |
|
kados |
? isn't that the same as subject classsifications as defined by LOC? |
| 13:52 |
|
hdl |
s/Catholicism/Christianism/ |
| 13:52 |
|
hdl |
kados : could be but not necessary. |
| 13:52 |
|
kados |
(only Koha's current MARC support doesn't support the ordering of them ) |
| 13:53 |
|
kados |
how does a library define them? |
| 13:53 |
|
hdl |
It is based on a MARC field. |
| 13:53 |
|
hdl |
In a systempreference : opaccategories |
| 13:54 |
|
hdl |
one enter the field 100f |
| 13:54 |
|
hdl |
100f is an instance, not quite relevant. |
| 13:54 |
|
hdl |
In france, dewey would be 686a |
| 13:55 |
|
kados |
but dewey is just a number ... not 'History' or 'Religion' right? |
| 13:55 |
|
kados |
so how does a library define 'this dewey number = 'History'' |
| 13:56 |
|
hdl |
(coming...) then, at first, categories would be divided by the n first characters into an authorised_value list. |
| 13:56 |
|
hdl |
Say OPAC1 is for 1st character |
| 13:56 |
|
hdl |
OPAC1 is for the 2 1st character |
| 13:56 |
|
hdl |
OPAC2*** is for the 2 1st character |
| 13:56 |
|
hdl |
OPAC3 is for the 3 1st character |
| 13:57 |
|
hdl |
the value would be the characters |
| 13:58 |
|
hdl |
and the lib... (don't know the english term) would be the "name of the categories plus [number biblios] |
| 13:59 |
|
hdl |
The number of biblios would be regularly updated by a croned task |
| 13:59 |
|
kados |
hmmm ... couldn't the same thing be acomplished by using properly ordered subject (600 fields in MARC21, dunno in UNIMARC)? |
| 13:59 |
|
kados |
ie, if you have subject authorities |
| 14:00 |
|
kados |
and order is preserved when importing 600 fields (which it is now IIRC now) |
| 14:00 |
|
kados |
then you automatically have the categories right? |
| 14:01 |
|
hdl |
But the fact is that then, one need authorities and subject authorities to acheive this. |
| 14:03 |
|
kados |
hmmm ... but right now, one can't achieve it at all because 600 field order is not preserved (correct me if I am wrong) |
| 14:03 |
|
hdl |
Our proposition is to base things on a well known classification. or on itemcallnumbers, which are commonly used in our customer library. |
| 14:03 |
|
paul |
kados : the ordering of authorities is in CVS |
| 14:03 |
|
kados |
paul: ok ... thanks for that clarification |
| 14:04 |
|
paul |
mmm... not sure we speak of the same ordering... |
| 14:04 |
|
paul |
i speak of the result page you get when you search an authority. |
| 14:05 |
|
kados |
I'm talking about subjects ordering (fields in tag 6XX) when importing into Koha |
| 14:05 |
|
kados |
so for example |
| 14:05 |
|
kados |
I have a subject that catalogers setup: |
| 14:05 |
|
kados |
(false example because I'm not a cataloger) |
| 14:06 |
|
kados |
600 $bHistory $aUnited States $fOhio |
| 14:07 |
|
kados |
Koha will reorder this : |
| 14:07 |
|
kados |
600 $aUnited States $bHistory $fOhio |
| 14:07 |
|
kados |
thereby losing the category levels |
| 14:07 |
|
kados |
(I believe this only happened with Koha 2.2) |
| 14:07 |
|
paul |
right. there is no simple solution to this. Except that in CVS there is a new button in MARC editor to reorder the subfields. |
| 14:08 |
|
kados |
(as I believe koha 2.0 used Chris's original subjects code) |
| 14:08 |
|
paul |
thus you get $a$b$f and you can reorder manually to $b$a$f |
| 14:08 |
|
kados |
right ... for all 130,000 records :-) |
| 14:08 |
|
paul |
(dirty hack, your expert MARC editor will be the best solution) |
| 14:08 |
|
kados |
well ... here's my proposal |
| 14:08 |
|
kados |
we fix the ordering problem on import |
| 14:09 |
|
paul |
"the koha team agains unemployement : 1000 catalogers hired by Koha libraries !" ;-) |
| 14:09 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 14:09 |
|
kados |
if we fix it, we will automatically have a very nice complex list of categories with levels built in |
| 14:09 |
|
kados |
even without authorities |
| 14:10 |
|
kados |
and we will have better support for MARC :-) |
| 14:10 |
|
paul |
mmm... I think we should separate classification and authorities. |
| 14:10 |
|
paul |
classification : hierarchic numeric/alpha, like dewey / CDU ... |
| 14:10 |
|
paul |
authorities (constructed authorities) : hierarchic through MARC. |
| 14:11 |
|
paul |
subfields. |
| 14:11 |
|
paul |
hdl works on navigation on classification. |
| 14:11 |
|
kados |
ahh ... so maybe a 'browse the same shelf' feature |
| 14:12 |
|
kados |
'items near this item' |
| 14:12 |
|
kados |
(I realize location is different from classification ;-)) |
| 14:13 |
|
kados |
am I correct? |
| 14:14 |
|
hdl |
you could do it with itemcallnumber. |
| 14:14 |
|
hdl |
is that not quite like shelf browsing ? |
| 14:14 |
|
kados |
I think so |
| 14:14 |
|
kados |
at least at NPL |
| 14:15 |
|
kados |
though I think some libraries distinguish between 'location' and 'classification' |
| 14:15 |
|
hdl |
what does itemcallnumber look like ? |
| 14:15 |
|
kados |
and that would be similar but not the same as shelf browsing |
| 14:15 |
|
kados |
hdl: it depends on the type of the item |
| 14:16 |
|
kados |
hdl: for fiction: |
| 14:16 |
|
kados |
hdl: SF Stephenson |
| 14:16 |
|
kados |
hdl: is the callnumber for 'cryptonomicon' as well as all of neal stephenson's other books |
| 14:17 |
|
kados |
for non-fiction: |
| 14:17 |
|
kados |
hdl: 641.5 SAI |
| 14:17 |
|
kados |
hdl: "The art of Greek cookery, based on The Grecian gourmet" |
| 14:17 |
|
hdl |
dewey space Author ? |
| 14:17 |
|
kados |
sometimes yes |
| 14:18 |
|
kados |
to be honest, NPL isn't a great example |
| 14:18 |
|
kados |
because our catalogers aren't really professionals |
| 14:18 |
|
kados |
oops ... did I say that out loud? |
| 14:18 |
|
kados |
:-) |
| 14:18 |
|
hdl |
It surely IS. since it is the case most of the time.... |
| 14:19 |
|
hdl |
would it be beacuse there were MANY catalogers with MANY experiences and way of mind. |
| 14:19 |
|
hdl |
or becaus noone ever came across what real classification was. |
| 14:19 |
|
hdl |
:) |
| 14:19 |
|
kados |
partly ... also because they have chosen local classification schemes that don't really follow any known standard for classification |
| 14:21 |
|
hdl |
ok. |
| 14:24 |
|
hdl |
Are you OK with Opac "alayahoo" feature ? |
| 14:28 |
|
kados |
yes ... it sounds exciting |
| 14:28 |
|
hdl |
paul thanks for your help. |
| 14:28 |
|
kados |
sorry I missunderstood at first what it was :-) |
| 14:29 |
|
kados |
(I may want to change the name from 'alayahoo' to 'browse shelf' or something) |
| 14:29 |
|
kados |
(if that's OK) |
| 14:29 |
|
paul |
that's OK to me |
| 14:29 |
|
hdl |
OK |
| 14:29 |
|
paul |
+ hdl, & kados : |
| 14:29 |
|
paul |
if we use itemcallnumber, then we may have letters (3 first of the author) |
| 14:30 |
|
paul |
but if we use dewey code (676 in unimarc) we should not have it |
| 14:30 |
|
kados |
paul: at NPL you would have both cases |
| 14:30 |
|
paul |
note we may have it sometimes, so we have to solve the problem... |
| 14:30 |
|
paul |
maybe drop trailing letters ? or anything after the space ? |
| 14:31 |
|
kados |
it might need to be cusomized by each library ... |
| 14:32 |
|
kados |
because classification varies greatly from library to library |
| 14:32 |
|
kados |
(at least in US libraries) |
| 14:33 |
|
kados |
hmmm ... |
| 14:33 |
|
kados |
here's an idea ... instead of building a new table |
| 14:33 |
|
kados |
why not just query Zebra for the data? |
| 14:34 |
|
kados |
and dynamically build the list of 10 or so 'nearby' items |
| 14:34 |
|
kados |
ie, 'items before' and 'items after' |
| 14:34 |
|
kados |
they you don't have to worry about a batch |
| 14:34 |
|
kados |
and we don't replicate our data yet again :-) |
| 14:34 |
|
paul |
the new table could be useful because in my idea, we should show the code + the text attached to it. |
| 14:34 |
|
paul |
something like : |
| 14:34 |
|
paul |
"browse the catalogue : |
| 14:34 |
|
paul |
1- XXXX |
| 14:35 |
|
paul |
(nnnn items) |
| 14:35 |
|
paul |
2- religion |
| 14:35 |
|
paul |
(ppppp items) |
| 14:35 |
|
paul |
3- history |
| 14:35 |
|
paul |
(qqq items) |
| 14:35 |
|
kados |
I see |
| 14:35 |
|
paul |
when the user clic on 3, he get : |
| 14:35 |
|
paul |
30 - XXX ... |
| 14:35 |
|
paul |
but you idea of seeing nearby items is very good ! |
| 14:35 |
|
kados |
ok ... here's my idea |
| 14:36 |
|
kados |
what you are describing above would work better with subject headings IMO |
| 14:36 |
|
kados |
whereas a 'nearby items' feature woudl be good after I have already found a book |
| 14:36 |
|
kados |
then I can click 'see items near this item' |
| 14:37 |
|
kados |
let me find an example |
| 14:37 |
|
kados |
http://www.library.ohiou.edu/ |
| 14:38 |
|
kados |
search for 'neal stephenson' |
| 14:38 |
|
kados |
then bring up first record |
| 14:38 |
|
kados |
and click on the 'classification code' |
| 14:38 |
|
kados |
you will see a list of items on the same shelf |
| 14:38 |
|
kados |
but also ... note the 'show similar items' button at the bottom of the detail page |
| 14:39 |
|
kados |
it uses subject headings to display related items |
| 14:39 |
|
kados |
(I think ...) |
| 14:39 |
|
paul |
subject headings : there are 6 |
| 14:39 |
|
paul |
(in your sample) |
| 14:39 |
|
kados |
yep |
| 14:40 |
|
paul |
do you mean a "similar item" has the same 6 subjects ? |
| 14:40 |
|
kados |
according to this OPAC :-) |
| 14:40 |
|
kados |
try the linnk |
| 14:40 |
|
kados |
link I mean |
| 14:40 |
|
kados |
not exactly the same subjects ... but it seems to use the subject terms as a keyword search |
| 14:42 |
|
kados |
IMO classification is not the best way to do categories |
| 14:42 |
|
kados |
especially not categories that look so much like subject categories |
| 14:43 |
|
kados |
but classification is a great way to do 'nearby items' |
| 14:43 |
|
kados |
if we want subject categories then I suggest we fix koha's ordering problem wtih 600 fields |
| 14:43 |
|
kados |
paul: btw: do you have any ideas for how to do this for Koha 3.0? |
| 14:44 |
|
paul |
it's almost 7Pm in france, i have to leave. |
| 14:44 |
|
paul |
i'll investigate joshua. |
| 14:44 |
|
kados |
ok ... thanks |
| 14:44 |
|
kados |
I hope I make some sense :-) |
| 14:44 |
|
paul |
let's add this to the long long long list of my idea ;-) |
| 14:44 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 14:44 |
|
paul |
(just a last word : i've added some webservices for a customer (work on 2.2.4)) |
| 14:45 |
|
paul |
I have some ideas with webservices... |
| 14:45 |
|
kados |
for acquisitions? |
| 14:45 |
|
paul |
(including catalogue in a CMS through webservice) |
| 14:45 |
|
kados |
nice |
| 14:45 |
|
paul |
no, the webservice was for catalogue querying |
| 14:45 |
|
kados |
I see |
| 14:45 |
|
paul |
we will speak of this tomorrow ;-) |
| 14:45 |
|
paul |
(if you're there) |
| 14:46 |
|
kados |
ok ... talk to you tomorrow |
| 14:46 |
|
kados |
I'll be here all week |
| 14:46 |
|
paul_away |
bye world |
| 14:50 |
|
hdl |
bye paul |
| 16:09 |
|
rach |
morning |
| 17:34 |
|
kados |
morning |
| 17:34 |
|
kados |
I think the lists are all moved |
| 17:35 |
|
kados |
except for manage, advisors, and testing which I'm proposing we get rid of |
| 18:03 |
|
kados |
chris: http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1033 |
| 18:03 |
|
kados |
russ: http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1033 |
| 18:03 |
|
kados |
when you get a chance, update koha.org with new mailing list info |
| 18:04 |
|
kados |
(not sure who's doing that these days) |
| 18:10 |
|
rach |
will be russ |
| 19:59 |
|
thd |
kados: are you present now that NZ has returned? |
| 19:59 |
|
kados |
on phone |
| 19:59 |
|
thd |
kados: beep when off phone |
| 20:34 |
|
thd |
kados: are you still on phone? |
| 00:02 |
|
thd |
+ |
| 01:59 |
|
rach |
For ayone who wants to see "bump" progress - http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/jp/IMG_0109 |
| 01:59 |
|
rach |
well and of course rosalie being sworn in as a JP (Justice of the Peace) |
| 06:22 |
|
Sylvain |
hi all |
| 06:33 |
|
hdl |
hi alone |
| 06:33 |
|
Sylvain |
:) |
| 06:45 |
|
Sylvain |
Little request from ENSMP, in normal view, it is shown if an item is on loan but in marc it isn't shown, has something been developped to change that ? |
| 07:10 |
|
paul |
sylvain : nope, ENSMP is right |
| 07:10 |
|
paul |
(still have to answer infos mailing list on this) |
| 07:10 |
|
Sylvain |
I was hoping another answer ;) |
| 07:10 |
|
paul |
sorry. |
| 07:11 |
|
paul |
that should not be to hard to fix for me |
| 07:11 |
|
paul |
(but very tricky) |
| 07:21 |
|
thd |
good morning paul |
| 07:23 |
|
thd |
|hdl| are you logged in or your ghost? |
| 07:23 |
|
|hdl| |
yes |
| 07:23 |
|
|hdl| |
phoning |
| 07:25 |
|
thd |
|hdl| let me know when you are off phone. I have some legal caution for your classification hierarchy feature. |
| 07:37 |
|
paul |
|hdl| : une petite envie d'aller au Maroc ??? |
| 07:52 |
|
|hdl| |
thd back. |
| 07:56 |
|
thd |
hdl: Your proposed classification browsing feature is a very good idea. I have code written in Python that was written for that problem domain. |
| 07:57 |
|
hdl |
thd: Code used with koha ? |
| 07:57 |
|
thd |
hdl: If GPL version 3 fixes the right problems I would release that code. |
| 07:58 |
|
thd |
hdl: I have not mingled that code with Koha although GPL version 2 would allow it as a web service. |
| 07:59 |
|
thd |
hdl: The appropriation of my code as someone else's close web service is what I guard that python code against.. |
| 08:01 |
|
paul |
why do you want to guard your code thomas ? |
| 08:03 |
|
thd |
paul hdl one moment. I may need to restart my Xserver. |
| 08:17 |
|
thd |
paul hdl: sorry, too much cutting and pasting between xterms causes problems for me eventually. |
| 08:20 |
|
thd |
paul hdl: The problem I have with sharing my code for classification browsing or even showing the user interface just yet is that I fear losing the possible business from it to a closed source company with much much better ability to advertise than I have myself. |
| 08:22 |
|
paul |
if chris, joshua or me had had the same fear, Koha would not be what it is nowadays ! |
| 08:22 |
|
thd |
paul hdl: I would freely share everything else I have but that until or unless GPL 3 corrects the web services loophole. |
| 08:24 |
|
thd |
paul: I have no shortage of ideas unrelated to classification browsing that I will happily contribute to Koha at least equal to what has been done so far. |
| 08:25 |
|
thd |
paul: My business model for classification browsing is web services and not support for individual libraries. |
| 08:26 |
|
thd |
paul: Actually, I have not worked on my classification browsing code for over a year and I have worked on other things for Koha. |
| 08:27 |
|
thd |
paul hdl: I would still be happy to share some of my understanding of classification browsing. |
| 08:28 |
|
thd |
hdl: There is a legal problem with using the DDC. |
| 08:29 |
|
thd |
http://lists.webjunction.org/w[…]ember/034527.html |
| 08:31 |
|
thd |
OCLC owns the DDC and the file real lawsuits in real courts over seemingly frivolous claims which require a real defence that cost real money if you intend to defend them. |
| 08:33 |
|
thd |
paul: Are all Koha copyrights assigned back to Katipo. |
| 08:33 |
|
thd |
? |
| 08:36 |
|
thd |
paul hdl: Who holds the copyrights for Koha code? |
| 08:38 |
|
thd |
paul hdl: are you still there? |
| 08:45 |
|
thd |
paul hdl: ping |
| 09:02 |
|
hdl |
thd ! back |
| 09:03 |
|
thd |
hdl: Who holds the copyrights for Koha code. |
| 09:03 |
|
thd |
? |
| 09:04 |
|
thd |
hdl: Is it not Katipo that has the assignment? |
| 09:05 |
|
hdl |
Yes. |
| 09:05 |
|
hdl |
paul settled a french ownership on Koha Trademark. |
| 09:07 |
|
thd |
hdl: If you are lucky, OCLC might only threaten the offending library and Katipo, but maybe not you; if a library used Koha to represent the DDC in some manner of which OCLC disapproved. |
| 09:09 |
|
hdl |
thd: the fact is that we donot want to make only DCC but also allow people to customize their classification. |
| 09:09 |
|
thd |
hdl: OCLC requires a license to use the current form of the first three DDC levels. That is the levels up to the decimal point. |
| 09:09 |
|
hdl |
Maybe we should get in touch with OCLC. |
| 09:10 |
|
hdl |
Do you have an idea of the License cost ? |
| 09:10 |
|
thd |
hdl: Obviously there is no problem with custom classifications. |
| 09:11 |
|
hdl |
Maybe with hiding the figure and displaying only classification labels, that would go. |
| 09:11 |
|
thd |
hdl: The price is based on the institution size and membership arrangements and is not really expensive as I recall.. |
| 09:12 |
|
hdl |
kados there ? |
| 09:12 |
|
thd |
hdl: I would suggest a public domain approach in relation to the original form of the DDC. |
| 09:13 |
|
hdl |
Could you be more precise ? |
| 09:14 |
|
hdl |
(paul and I were at lunch. 13pm in france. |
| 09:14 |
|
hdl |
) |
| 09:14 |
|
thd |
hdl: They refuse to license use of anything beyond the decimal point for a hierarchal classification browser as opposed to a shelf listing. |
| 09:15 |
|
hdl |
thd : just precise a little more what you understand with public domain approach. |
| 09:15 |
|
thd |
hdl: I thought that you had taken grave offence at my concern over protected my code. |
| 09:16 |
|
thd |
when I had no reply |
| 09:16 |
|
hdl |
No. For sure. |
| 09:16 |
|
hdl |
Wa are not THAT touchy. although we are frenchy ;)))) |
| 09:17 |
|
hdl |
Nowadays, we know that laws and copyrights HAVE to be abided by. |
| 09:19 |
|
hdl |
In France, the french governement wants to vote a thing that would oblige softwares to use DRM.... Working with opensource softwares leads to be quite sensitive to copyrights and law matters. |
| 09:20 |
|
hdl |
Not to throw it to Trash, but to understand and keep in mind what is Legal and what is not. |
| 09:21 |
|
thd |
http://www.gutenberg.org/files[…]513-h/12513-h.htm |
| 09:21 |
|
thd |
There is at least one later edition in the public domain. |
| 09:24 |
|
thd |
hdl: Representing the whole current DDC is something that OCLC reserves to itself as a part of a cataloguing service. |
| 09:27 |
|
thd |
hdl: Actually, just to be clear, numbers past the decimal point in DDC , not that they can be offered in a public browsing service, sometimes involve tables. Therefore their meaning is not as straightforward as at least the first three numbers are. |
| 09:28 |
|
hdl |
Yes. |
| 09:30 |
|
thd |
hdl: OCLC objects to public services representing the whole DDC you could perhaps have something for librarian's that used the numbers past the decimal point if it was not in the OPAC. Maybe OCLC would object to that as well though. |
| 09:32 |
|
hdl |
ok. |
| 09:34 |
|
hdl |
Using DDC as proposed in your link would be using public domain DDC ? |
| 09:34 |
|
thd |
hdl: The whole UDC can be licensed. The LCC is in the public domain but funtions very differently and requires use of adding number tables throughout to a much greater degree than the DDC or UDC. |
| 09:36 |
|
thd |
hdl: As long as the copy is from 1923 or earlier now under the current Berne convention you should be safe. |
| 09:39 |
|
thd |
hdl: From the point of view of OCLC trustees, public use of the DDC is seen as a threat to wholesale copying as an alternative to some libraries obtaining a license at all. They actually claim that this was a real problem before they adopted their rather draconian attitude. |
| 09:42 |
|
thd |
hdl: There may be ways to get avoid hazards of copyright as in your suggested possibility of excluding the numbers (maybe with changing the official matching names also). |
| 09:43 |
|
hdl |
Manythx. |
| 09:44 |
|
thd |
hdl: However, OCLC is very litigious and not at all nice even if they do have nice people who work for them. |
| 09:45 |
|
paul |
thd : in my idea, Koha just deals with the number. whatever the meaning. |
| 09:45 |
|
paul |
it's the library that fills the "meaning" of each code. |
| 09:45 |
|
paul |
thus, it works with any classification, and we don't have to deal with copyright |
| 09:46 |
|
thd |
hdl: They actually brought a case to court against a hotel in New York for using a quasi DDC theme that was not even DDC. |
| 09:46 |
|
paul |
(as I hope a classification based on a number of digits is not @ i hope !!!) |
| 09:46 |
|
paul |
I know. |
| 09:46 |
|
paul |
and iirc, they won ! |
| 09:47 |
|
thd |
paul: The hotel settled and paid something modest to OCLC then made some changes in their marketing. |
| 09:49 |
|
hdl |
But I think that to avoid any problem, we (Koha team) could get in touch with OCLC and ask for a license... Or right to use. |
| 09:49 |
|
thd |
paul: I understand that your idea would merely enable a library to do something to which OCLC might object. |
| 09:49 |
|
paul |
yes, but that's already the case with every ILS isn't it ? |
| 09:49 |
|
paul |
(as every ils can store dewey number) |
| 09:50 |
|
paul |
and in France 90% of libraries uses dewey |
| 09:50 |
|
paul |
(on a 3 digits basis often) |
| 09:50 |
|
paul |
(only the 3 first digits I mean) |
| 09:50 |
|
thd |
paul: I am merely asserting that, given the litigiousness of OCLC, they might choose to act against Koha and Katipo at least as well. |
| 09:53 |
|
thd |
paul: Well, other ILS systems do not have what could be done very nicely that I had hoped hdl was proposing to implement. |
| 09:54 |
|
thd |
paul: BNF does have classification browsing in a good and very useful sense, although it could be much better. |
| 09:55 |
|
thd |
paul: Many ILS systems have call number browsing without a hierarchy to which OCLC has no objection that I know. |
| 09:56 |
|
paul |
could you describe it ? |
| 09:56 |
|
thd |
paul: Koha has that somewhat already. |
| 09:57 |
|
thd |
paul: Are you asking for a description of call number browsing? |
| 09:58 |
|
paul |
yes. (and where it differs from what we plan) |
| 09:59 |
|
thd |
paul: call number browsing starts from a search rather than a classification hierarchy. |
| 10:00 |
|
paul |
can the user go up and down in the hierarchy ? |
| 10:00 |
|
thd |
paul: Search for a complete or truncated call number or follow a call number link in the retrieved set of another search.. |
| 10:01 |
|
paul |
yes, but the user has to know what a number means ! |
| 10:02 |
|
thd |
paul: In classification browsing the user does not see the hierarchy but follows the endless sequence of all call numbers sorted by call number. |
| 10:03 |
|
paul |
that's the "see nearest" feature we skope with joshua |
| 10:03 |
|
paul |
s/skope/spoke/ |
| 10:04 |
|
thd |
paul: As soon as the meaning of the number is given you start to cross over into the area where OCLC asserts its copyright for DDC. |
| 10:05 |
|
paul |
my opinion is that it's stupid to copyright an idea. |
| 10:05 |
|
paul |
and dcc is nothing more than an idea ! |
| 10:06 |
|
thd |
paul: Of course it is stupid but my work has concentrated on the public domain or copyright held in trust by the US government for all the people with LCC. |
| 10:06 |
|
paul |
and is there a classification under public domain |
| 10:07 |
|
paul |
(except the 3digits dewey you pointed) |
| 10:07 |
|
thd |
paul: Decimalised classification is merely an idea but a particular fully specified scheme can be copyrighted. |
| 10:08 |
|
thd |
paul: LCC |
| 10:08 |
|
thd |
paul: Library of Congress Classification. |
| 10:09 |
|
paul |
can the complete LCC be downloaded somewhere ? |
| 10:09 |
|
thd |
paul: However, the construction of the DDC and coding around it is simple by comparison. |
| 10:11 |
|
thd |
paul: Unfortunately, LCC had historically been a paper only set of schedules. |
| 10:12 |
|
thd |
paul: Since 2001 the full schedules have been available in the MARC 21 classification format. |
| 10:15 |
|
thd |
paul: Because that is recent I have not been able to identify any library where the complete set of LCC MARC records are held for the possibility of copying them. |
| 10:17 |
|
thd |
paul: Also no commercial service that redistributes LC MARC records at reasonable prices has had enough customer interest in MARC classification records to justify offering them. |
| 10:20 |
|
thd |
paul: LC CDC service uses some cost recovery formula to come up with the rather high prices for databases of MARC records by FTP. |
| 10:21 |
|
thd |
paul: There are free test records from LC including a special set of classification records that they prepared for me. |
| 10:23 |
|
thd |
paul: But I had stopped working on that problem over a year ago when my foot swelled very painfully to double size. |
| 10:24 |
|
thd |
http://www.loc.gov/cds/mds.html#lccr |
| 10:26 |
|
thd |
paul: $4,360 for the backfile and $4,360 annually to maintain a subscription. |
| 10:33 |
|
thd |
paul: Well LC CDS seems to have removed the username and password for the test files. |
| 10:42 |
|
thd |
paul: I am always willing to hear any ideas about how I might share my own classification browsing code without having Amazon or TLC for example putting it on their server and taking most all of the potential commercial value without any return for what I had developed or even getting modifications back. |
| 10:43 |
|
paul |
my opinion is that such a work should not be copyrighted, so I can't help you on this. But you also can put a GPL licence on it : use, modify freely, but keep it free. |
| 10:44 |
|
paul |
(& I still don't understand why it can be possible to @ an idea. I think i'll never understand...) |
| 10:45 |
|
paul |
earning money just because I was the 1st to have an idea is something un-accessible to me, sorry |
| 10:48 |
|
thd |
paul: My basic model for exploiting it was to offer free web services. If Amazon were offering those identical services without even acknowledging my contribution then I fear that I would not have enough of a market left for me. This is possible with web services under GPL version 2. My trumpet is very much smaller than Amazon's for anything that I did where they might directly use my code. |
| 10:51 |
|
thd |
paul: The idea is free. You have it already in general. Only very precise implementations should be subject to copyright. |
| 10:53 |
|
thd |
paul: The only protection for ideas should be trade secret laws not copyright. Ideas should be everyone's as soon as they are disclosed. |
| 10:55 |
|
thd |
paul: US courts have only recently allowed the patenting of what they had previously held to be mere ideas. |
| 10:55 |
|
thd |
paul: However, patents and software should never mix. |
| 10:59 |
|
thd |
paul: I would not be first. Maybe I would have the first free to use service considering that Amazon for example would never do the necessary work on their own and the nonfree services collect subscription fees. |
