IRC log for #koha, 2005-09-07

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
13:55 kados hdl: you around?
13:55 kados thd: you around?
16:03 rach bonjour
16:21 thd kados: I am paying attention now :)
16:22 kados thd: hi
16:23 thd hello kados
16:25 thd kados: you had asked for me earlier.  What had you wanted?
16:25 kados thd: do you know if the leader is working for resivoir-imported records?
16:26 kados thd: also, are there any 'gotchas' for resevoir-imported records that you know of (asside from the normal ones that also apply to bulkmarcimport)
16:26 thd kados: I assume that you would know better than I as I never installed the leader fix, yet :)
16:26 kados thd: (leader doesn't seem to be working for me when I use and items that have previously been imported into the resevoir
16:27 kados ahh
16:27 kados thought you would have had an essay on it by now ;-)
16:28 thd kados: I had been working on rewriting the Z39.50 client so I have not experimented with bulkmarkimport stage recently.
16:30 thd kados: I do need to have it all working with a very low price for a bookshop client by the 22 September.
16:31 thd kados: I will have October to actually implement it but I need to know enough to specify the lowest possible price in advance.
16:31 kados cool you've got a client
16:35 russ hi thd and kados - i am just preparing a summary of where we are at with the content, you should have it in your inbox within the hour
16:35 kados russ: great ... sorry I've been behind in writing
16:36 thd kados: the leader question: You will not have a leader for records imported before the fix where the leader had been stripped off.
16:36 kados thd: right ... from what I can tell I've got the version of addbiblio that has record management
16:37 kados thd: I'll check
16:39 kados I don't see any commits related to leader for
16:39 thd russ:  I have been devoting several hours each day since Saturday to writing and becoming familiar with some features that I had never looked at closely in Koha.
16:39 kados I wonder if paul forgot
16:40 russ cool guys - i'll finish this, and maybe we cna get a chance to discuss in a little while
16:40 thd kados: you meant the version of addbiblo with 'leader management'
16:43 kados thd: maybe ... but it could also be a problem when imports the file right?
16:43 kados thd: every other field seems to be fine
16:43 thd russ: 'cna'?
16:43 kados thd: but the leader doesn't show up
16:43 kados thd: s/cna/can/ ;-)
16:49 russ sorry only one coffee so far this morning
16:49 russ typing requires at least 2 coffees
16:49 thd kados: I mistrust the import scripts aside from  The others only import the what is included in the MARC schema.  Paul considers that a feature, as may well be.  However I mistrust the schema as well.   I am rewriting the Z39.50 client to use and bypass everything else.
16:51 thd russ: I never type correctly.   I now have a spell check plug-in for X-Chat at home.
16:55 russ :-) now that is a good idea
16:57 thd kados: I would like to have the MARC schema supporting every field indicator and subfield so that I could use it with confidence.  Single record importing with is more natural than using .
17:01 thd russ: aspell or ispell spell checking does not fix everything, like my dropped words or poor word order.  Occasionally, it makes things much worse when I select the wrong misspelling suggested correction.
17:08 thd kados: are you still there?
17:11 thd russ: my email had asked about why Open CMS was dropped.  I did have some understanding of why Mambo had been dropped which was your reply.  Why was Open CMS dropped after all the trouble installing it?
17:14 rach it needed java to run and the good volunteers didn't have time/energy to learn how to use it
17:15 thd rach: needing Java is a big strike from the start.
17:15 rach so we (katipo) still want to give it a go, but we want a website up more :-)
17:16 rach for all it's faults at least we know how kea works, and how to tweak it if necessary
17:17 russ hi guys - content status report -[…]-status-good.html
17:17 russ doing an email now
17:23 kados russ: I've got 'history' about 50% done as well
17:28 russ great
17:31 kados no ;-)
17:32 kados but it's probably got something to do with being late getting something done ;-)
17:33 russ[…]asp?idProduct=388 - it is a kiwi thing
17:33 russ something that often gets given out a small reward for doing something
17:34 russ marshmallow fish with with a little bit of caramel coated in a thin layer of chocolate
17:34 kados :-)
17:34 kados hehe ... now I think I remember chris mentioning it at some point
17:36 thd a tessellating chocolate fish :)
17:37 thd kados: have you enquired with the Argentines about barcode generation?
17:38 kados thd: naw ... I'm reading the code ;-)
17:38 kados thd: I already committed one fix
17:39 kados thd: with more on the way ;-)
17:39 thd kados: The suggestion from my message is that Koha is missing some of the code to use their barcode generation code correctly.
17:40 kados thd: really?
17:40 kados thd: I didn't get that from your email at all
17:40 kados thd: I should re-read it
17:40 thd kados: what is the purpose of the country code?
17:40 kados thd: not sure yet
17:42 thd kados: unless of course the scanner internal software is expected to strip everything out except your barcode.  Not all barcode scanners have the programming logic for that in the scanner.  Some expect the application program to supply the logic.
17:45 thd kados: my suggestion is that the Argentines are either using a different type or differently configured scanner from yours or Koha is missing a routine a custom routine to parse the input from the scanner.
17:51 thd kados: When I have written barcode generation routines,  I used code 39.   No error checking, but much easier to implement.  The encoded '*' is the start and stop character, '*BARCODENUMBER*'.  Code 128 is a much more compact symbology and better in every way except ease of programming.
17:55 thd kados: ISBNs have county built into the code, but the country prefix is expected to be part of the 10 digit and soon to be 13 digit code.
17:58 thd kados: perhaps the Argentines were trying to build codes that worked like ISBNs with a country code prefix.
02:12 osmoze hello
03:13 hdl hello
03:16 osmoze hdl>  te souviens tu d un fichier sur les bilans me semble t il que tu m avais modifier en partie et qu il fallait que je continu suivant ton modele ?
03:17 osmoze bonjour paul :)
03:17 paul salut jseb
03:17 hdl très vaguement.
03:17 hdl Rafraîchis ma mémoire.
03:26 osmoze je retrouver en retrouvant les erreurs :)
03:26 osmoze -er +ais
03:51 osmoze paul, comment cela marche pour les correction avant la 2.2.4 ? Il y a une mise a jour des sources avec les correction petit a petit pour la 2.2.3 ou pas ?
03:52 paul tu veux dire sources publiques ?
03:52 paul j'annonce sur la liste les bugs bloquants/critiques avec leur fix.
03:52 paul pas de diff ou de patch.
03:52 paul il y a eu 2 annonces.
03:52 osmoze ok
03:53 paul_away oups, alt-F4 par erreur
04:17 paul ih shaun
04:18 paul is there a private url to see the future website ?
04:19 shaun paul: hi
04:19 shaun yep,, but unfortunately it's currently restricted to content editors
04:20 paul I saw the link, I was looking for something without .htaccess restriction ;-)
04:26 shaun it won't be long... i take it you saw the design?
04:26 paul yes, of course.
04:38 paul chris : some minuts to speak of rugby ?
04:38 paul did the last Aka from all blacks make noise in NZ ?
04:38 paul because in France it did !
04:39 chris did you like it paul?
04:39 chris yes, it was a suprise to us, but everyone really liked it
04:40 si other than the throat slitting
04:40 chris they are keeping both, and using the new one on special occassions
04:40 si which did suprise a few folks
04:40 paul the noise was about the throat slitting.
04:40 chris who obviously had never seen a real haka before
04:40 paul in france, many ppl where really angry with it.
04:40 chris throat slitting is pretty tame
04:41 si well indeed, throat slitting is pretty commonplace in schoolboy haka
04:41 paul but all blacks are world-wide famous, so they should be carefull. imho
04:42 paul some things that may look common for kiwis can be really strange for strangers
04:42 chris yep
04:42 chris they will only ever do that haka in new zealand
04:42 si paul: one suggestion is that the old haka isn't copywritable, since it's in the public domain (being over 100 years old)
04:43 si so you can be sure that the rugby union will be keeping very close tabs on the new haka
04:43 chris plus its about a man who was responsible for the death of a lot of my relations
04:43 chris (the old haka that is)
04:43 si not just yor relations, mind
04:44 si he was pretty unselective about who he killed
04:44 chris yeah, everyone from kapiti south ;)
04:44 chris the old all black haka is not about the all blacks or rugby at all paul
04:45 chris its about a man called Te Rauparaha who was a particularly ruthless and bloodthirsty man
04:48 chris it predates the all blacks .. and in fact predates new zealand :-)
04:51 si paul: lest you get the wrong idea, he was a local hero in the area I grew up
04:52 si it's all a matter of perspective
04:52 si and he did build a stunning church
04:52 chris he was certainly smart
04:53 si paul: the haka actually describes his joy at surviving an invasion from his enemies by hiding in a kumara pit, if my memory serves
04:53 chris thats right
04:54 si the old one, that is
04:54 si the new one just says "heads up, this is going to hurt" as far as I can tell
04:54 chris the new one is new words, but the actions are a mish mash of other hakas
04:55 si it is hard to make up a truly unique dance move, though
04:55 chris yeah the new one is can only really be done in nz, its about how this is their land
04:56 chris my brother in laws cousin wrote the new one
04:56 chris yep ill find it for you
04:58 chris
04:58 chris has the translation of both of them
05:07 chris i think they even slipped a couple of samoan and fijian actions into it
05:07 si as you do
05:07 chris ill have to wait till the next big test to see :)
05:08 si when you pinch players from all over the souther hemisphere
05:08 chris yep
05:08 chris rules=rulers
05:09 si really
05:09 chris ill have to show you the video some time we converted it from my grandmas super8 camera thing
05:09 chris i used to do them on the back porch and get the it stuck between the slats and trip on them
05:09 chris slow learner obviously
05:09 si ohh, there's video?
05:09 si now we're talking
05:10 chris i could bore you with the dvd of the wedding too :-)
05:11 chris laurels dad has been making dvd's of everything
07:20 kados /ni/nick kados
07:43 hdl Saleté d'orages...
07:46 osmoze pas touché hdl ? J ai regardé les infos a midi, c est pas beau vers chez toi
07:46 hdl J'ai failli.
07:46 hdl Pendant que j'arrêtais ma machine, un gros pétard a éclaté bien prêt.
07:47 hdl Dieu merci, rien de grave.
07:47 paul c'est pas très cher et quand même bien rassurant...
07:47 paul bon, allez, je t'ouvre un crédit pour acheter un onduleur
07:47 paul (c'est sérieux)
07:47 hdl En tout cas, pas par rapport à la machine.
07:48 hdl Je vais voir.
07:48 hdl Il en faut un de 750 VA Non ?
07:48 paul mmm... je ne me souviens plus de ce que j'ai acheté.
07:49 paul j'ai pris un onduleur basique, pour 1PC 300W + écran + 1 prise régulée (pour mon bon vieux speedtouch home)
09:38 kados hdl: hi there
09:39 kados hdl: I'm having a strange problem with the cataloging Z39.50 client in Koha
09:39 kados hdl: I run a query, it finds a result (I can tell from the log)
09:39 kados hdl: but I get an error in the other log:
09:39 kados [Tue Sep 06 08:36:54 2005] [error] [client] script not found or unable to stat: /home/nbbc/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/z3950/0
09:39 hdl Yes...
09:39 hdl known problem.
09:39 kados is there a solution?
09:41 hdl yes.
09:42 hdl In fact, you have to change the return value of a function which sometimes return a string and sometimes an int.
09:46 hdl kados : line 103 in file in z3950 directory
09:47 hdl refresh => ($numberpending eq 0 ? 0 : "$bibid&random=$random"),
09:47 hdl replace the second 0 with "" for instance.
09:48 kados hdl: ok ... I'll test it
09:49 kados hdl: ok ... that seems to have fixed that specific bug ... but I still get 'no results found' when in the log there are results
09:49 hdl if you search for biblio you already have, doesnot say anithing, but answers no results.
09:50 kados hdl: I'm not searching for an already existing biblio in this case
09:50 hdl AHA!!!
09:50 hdl Did you try ISBN search ?
09:51 hdl or author search ?
09:51 kados hdl: title search
09:51 kados hdl: here's the last entries in log:
09:51 kados 21222/16 : MELVYL : 2 records found, retrieving them (max 80)
09:51 kados 21222/16 : MELVYL : records retrieved 2 SPEED: 2
09:51 kados 21222/16 : search done.
09:53 kados hdl: any ideas?
09:56 hdl I have had problems with this. But paul stated that was because it was already in base.
09:57 kados well in this case, it's definitely not ;-)
09:57 kados I've tried several titles that are not in the catalog
09:58 kados also, the titles are not in the resevoir
09:59 hdl Maybe you could try with external tools.
09:59 hdl I can provide you with a file
09:59 kados well ... the log shows that Koha's Z3950 client is finding records
10:00 kados but ... for some reason, it's not listing them
10:00 kados so a cataloger cannot add them to resevoir
10:01 kados unless I'm not understanding what z3950/ is supposed to do
10:01 kados paul: do you have any comments?
10:03 paul kados, i'm here
10:03 paul when a MARC record is retrieved, if it is already in the DB, it's discarded
10:04 paul that's why, for example, you can't do a "loop" with koha z3950 client querying  koha z3950 server
10:04 paul does this help ?
10:04 kados hmmm
10:04 kados in this case, I'm searching for a title called 'cryptonomicon'
10:04 kados the library does not own this title
10:05 kados and the record does not exist in the resevoir
10:05 paul mmm... isbn checked ?
10:05 kados searching by title
10:05 kados the log shows that it has found some results
10:06 kados but they are not visable to the user
10:06 paul that's why we think it may be a "discarded because it exist"
10:06 kados but it does not exist ;-)
10:06 paul so my question :
10:06 kados I have checked several times ;-)
10:06 paul did you also check the ISBN ?
10:06 kados no ... I will do so now
10:07 paul (because the check uses primarily the isbn)
10:08 kados paul: nothing found using the ISBN
10:09 kados paul: in catalog or in resevoir
10:09 paul is there an isbn is the retrieved record ?
10:09 paul (because i think there might be a bug if no isbn)
10:09 kados I can't see it but when I do a Z3950 search using the ISBN I get a result in the log
10:09 paul (under certain circumstances)
10:09 kados so I search by 0060512806
10:10 paul whatever you search, you get an empty result ?
10:10 kados yes
10:10 kados but the log shows results
10:12 kados paul: here is the log entries:
10:12 kados 21517/19 : Processing isbn=0380788624 at MELVYL CDL90 USMARC (2 forks)
10:12 kados 21517/19 : 2 >>
10:13 kados 21517/19 : creating and 21517/19 : working on results entry 23
10:13 kados 21517/19 : connected to MELVYL
10:13 kados 21517/19 : MELVYL : 1 records found, retrieving them (max 80)
10:13 kados 21517/19 : search done.
10:13 kados but the user sees:
10:13 kados Z3950 Search Results
10:13 kados Nothing found
10:13 kados I wonder if it could be a template problem
10:13 kados owen: what do you think?
10:13 owen Sorry...wasn't following.
10:14 kados have you ever gotten z3950 search results to display with NPL templates?
10:14 paul I think it's exactly the problem we had with z3950 client on results "disappearing".
10:14 owen Where are you testing?
10:14 paul the log shows results, and the window says "no results"
10:14 kados owen: well ... on nbbc production
10:14 kados paul: exactly
10:14 paul did you empty the breeding table ?
10:15 paul (the one that contains the reservoir)
10:15 kados paul: didn't know I needed to
10:15 kados paul: how is it doen?
10:15 kados paul: done even
10:15 paul (it's a "delete from breeding", not a Koha feature)
10:16 kados paul: marc_breeding?
10:16 paul yes
10:17 kados ok done ... I'll retest
10:17 kados paul: same problem
10:17 kados paul: and nothing in marc_breeding
10:18 owen It doesn't seem to be working on NPL's test server, even in the default template
10:22 kados switched to default for nbbc and I get same error as with NPL
10:22 kados paul: so I assume none of your libraries use this feature?
10:26 paul kados : almost all my libraries uses it.
10:26 paul so we should investigate to understand why it does not work for you ;-)
10:26 paul did you try with loc ?
10:26 paul (because sometimes, z3950 servers have strange behaviours)
10:27 paul (like returning an empty string if you don't specify the format you want as they expect)
10:27 paul (i've seen this once in France, where a server returning UNIMARC wanted a type=usmarc even !)
10:30 kados paul: can you or hdl send me a 'known good' Z3950 server config?
10:31 paul an unimarc one ?
10:31 kados paul: ip/port/db name for USMARC?
10:31 kados always the problem ;-) we're using two different MARCs ;-)
10:32 hdl kados : simple idea.
10:33 hdl in processz3950queue, you could print the marcrecord you get.
10:33 kados ok ... I'll try it
10:33 hdl line 283
10:34 hdl you can add print $rec->as_formatted;
10:34 hdl then you could know what you receive.
10:36 kados hmmm ... I added this line but nothing shows up in the log
10:36 kados I wonder if I need to do a 'warn'
10:41 kados when I first run '' (as root) I get:
10:41 kados No directory, logging in with HOME=/
10:41 kados could that be a problem?
11:36 hdl paul encore dans les parages ?
11:36 hdl paul_away, ne pars pas maintenant...
11:36 paul_away still here (but leaving...)
11:37 hdl Je voulais savoir si l'on pouvait utiliser le netserver avec des bases de tests.
11:37 hdl pour les clients.
11:37 hdl Ca permettrai de se libérer de ces problèmes de connexion.
11:37 hdl Mais ca a ses risques.
11:38 hdl En fait, c'est Madame jarroux qui a été gênée dans ses tests par mes déconnexions à cause de l'orage.
11:38 paul_away mmm... je vais y réfléchir.
11:38 paul_away on en reparle jeudi si tu veux bien.
11:38 paul_away là, away pour de bon
11:38 paul_away (le pb du netserver, c'est qu'il a un disque IDE, pas bon pour les perfs...)
11:39 hdl bonne soirée.
11:39 hdl kados, is you problem solved ?
11:39 kados hdl: nope
11:40 kados hdl: in fact, I've given up for today ;-)
11:40 hdl ok.
11:40 kados hdl: a bigger problem is that the leader does not appear in addbiblio
11:40 kados hdl: so there is data loss when a cataloger uses Koha's internal cataloging
11:41 kados hdl: in fact, when a record is added with bulkmarcimport the leader is preserved
11:41 kados hdl: but if that record is then edited with addbiblio (say to add a new item)
11:41 kados hdl: the leader is lost !!
11:41 kados hdl: it's a big bug
11:41 hdl Gosh !
11:41 hdl If you give a try with printing marc records, tell me about it.
11:42 kados hdl: I tried that but Net::Z3950 doesn't have a 'as_formated' method
11:42 kados hdl: so I would need to include MARC::Record in processqueue
11:42 kados hdl: and that's where I gave up ;-)
11:42 kados hdl: I may try later today but i was sick of it for now ;-)
11:43 kados hdl: you should warn your clients not to us Koha's internal cataloging!
11:43 kados hdl: if they use it they will lose all their leaders
11:44 hdl For internal use, it is not a problem.
11:44 hdl is it ?
11:44 kados not in Koha 2.2 ... but they will never have valid marc records again ;-)
11:45 kados and in Koha 3.0 we plan to use leaders for some functions
11:45 kados so it's a real problem
11:46 kados hdl: leaders cannot be 'auto-generated' they must be hand-crafted by a librarian
11:47 hdl What about leader management that paul designed a few weeks ago ?
11:47 kados hdl: it only works for bulkmarcimport
11:48 kados hdl: so if your client imports records with bulkmarcimport the leader is preserved
11:48 kados hdl: but if they then edit the record with addbiblio it is lost
11:49 hdl Is this a problem of MARC::RECORD or simply because addbiblio loose leaders
11:49 kados hdl: note that in most koha installation you must 'save' the biblio before going to 'items' ... so adding a new item to a biblio automatically results in losing the leader for that record ... even if it was there to begin with
11:49 kados hdl: simply because addbiblio loses leaders
11:49 kados hdl: I'm not sure if breeding scripts may be responsible too
11:51 kados hdl: I have a proposal about statuses
11:51 kados hdl: have you read my email to koha-devel?
11:51 hdl Maybe because there was no tag so it was quite a difference from MARC::Record.
11:51 hdl I have seen but not read atm
11:52 kados hdl: (I don't know the reason addbiblio loses leaders ... all I know is that it does ;-))
11:55 hdl kados: about your question.
11:56 hdl IMHO, I think that both notforloan on items and itemtype are needed... in tha way that an item which can be borrowed according to its itemtype may happen not to be borrowable since it is too old, to damaged.
11:57 hdl But maybe I misunderstood the question.
11:57 kados hdl: yes ... paul and I already discussed this and it's now fixed
11:57 kados hdl: I recently replied to myself about this
11:57 kados hdl: and committed the fix
11:57 kados hdl: more important now I think
11:58 kados hdl: is that notforloan statuses are not updated automatically by Koha
11:58 kados hdl: so if I have notforloan=>1 = 'checked out' Koha does not know to update this when an item is checked out
11:58 kados hdl: it only works if staff manually edits the marc record
11:59 kados hdl: which is quite impossible in this case

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