IRC log for #koha, 2010-12-07

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
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00:46 druthb joined #koha
00:46 chris hi druthb
00:46 druthb hi, chris! :)
00:47 chris any minute now
00:47 chris and england win
00:47 druthb yup.  :)
00:48 druthb 77 runs down, and only one wicket left.  tsk tsk.
00:49 druthb did they already have drinks?
00:49 chris hmm think so
00:50 druthb yah.  now it's just for Swann or Anderson to seal the deal.  This oughta be over by lunch.
00:51 druthb Based on highs and averages, there's just not much way for Siddle or Bollinger to have any hope of pulling this out.
00:52 druthb Both would need to exceed their records.
00:52 chris yup and looking at the averages thats pretty unlikely
00:57 chris done
00:58 druthb yup.
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03:39 * Brooke waves at Oak
03:40 wasabi my 'add-new-syspref' button is missing on my 3-2rc
03:40 wasabi does it work for other folk?
03:41 * Oak hugs Brooke
03:44 wasabi … i assume ive got a goofy db, that im testing with
03:49 wasabi ahhh, click..
03:49 wasabi "System preferences admin - local-use preferences"
03:49 Brooke @roulette
03:49 munin *BANG* Hey, who put a blank in here?!
03:49 * munin reloads and spins the chambers.
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06:37 cait hi #koha
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08:08 kf good morning #koha
08:09 ivanc good morning #koha
08:09 ivanc guten morgen kf
08:09 kf hi ivanc
08:12 hdl hi
08:12 ibot hey, hdl
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08:41 kf morning hdl
08:41 kf the meeting is at 10pm today?
08:42 chris no
08:43 chris 10am UTC
08:43 chris on the 8th
08:43 kf chris: solr meeting - sorry
08:43 chris ah yep, that one is
08:43 kf how was the training?
08:43 chris 11am tomorrow for me, which is why i wont be there
08:43 chris starts tomorrow
08:45 chris if anyone asks i think solr is cool, but as an option to use instead of zebra, not as a forced replacement
08:45 chris so hopefully thats addressed
08:46 kf I will be there
08:46 kf memorizing your statement now ;)
08:46 chris thanks :)
08:53 kf @wunder Konstanz
08:53 munin kf: The current temperature in Taegerwilen, Taegerwilen, Germany is 4.6�C (9:50 AM CET on December 07, 2010). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 97%. Dew Point: 4.0�C. Windchill: 5.0�C. Pressure: 29.62 in 1002.9 hPa (Rising).
08:53 kf :) and sun!
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08:57 kmkale hi all
08:57 kf hi kmkale
09:02 kmkale hi kf
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09:47 kf hi kmkale
09:48 kf jcamins: around?
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09:55 kf what's the correct status of a bug after sign-off?
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10:59 kf silent today
10:59 Fred joined #koha
11:00 Fred hello
11:09 kf hi Fred
11:11 slef kf: I just screamed on-list.
11:13 kf slef: you sure tehy changed?
11:15 slef kf: either that or doodle is buggy. http://doodle.com/participatio[…]=2eh7spytgmydduca
11:15 slef bbl
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11:24 kmkale kf got a minute?
11:30 kf let me finish this - 5 minutes
11:32 kmkale cool
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11:45 kf kmkale: I am here
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12:43 laurenthd slef : Bloody hell.
12:44 laurenthd doodle was displaying Europe time.
12:44 laurenthd And I thought it was displaying UTC
12:44 kf yeah, got a bit confused too
12:44 kf :)
12:44 laurenthd slef: I will post a fix for that.
12:44 laurenthd Would 20 UTC fit you ?
12:45 kf laurenthd: he told me he will be back in 4 hours
12:45 kf (12:17:08) slef: bbi 4h
12:46 kf ... 16?
12:48 Fred I got a question about a weird way to act of advanced search : if i choose to request on Local number from adv search page (index 'sn') i've no answers...but if i type 'sn=x' Koha give me what i want. Any idea from where the problem could come from?
12:49 kf perhaps the form is creating the wrong search statement?
12:52 Fred it seems to use sn,wrdl= x of what i can see
12:55 kf Fred: what version of koha are you using?
12:57 Fred 3.02.00.004
12:58 fredericd Fred: UNIMARC or MARC21?
12:58 fredericd hi kf
12:58 Fred Unimarc
12:59 kf hi fredericd
12:59 fredericd do you know where is you biblio records.abs file?
12:59 Fred yes
13:00 fredericd take a look at Local-number field. Verify that you have a 'w' index on it
13:00 Fred ok let me check that
13:01 Fred Local-number,Local-number:n  seems enough?
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13:01 fredericd no
13:01 fredericd Local-number,Local-number:n,Local-number:w
13:02 Fred ok, then it has changed since previous version?
13:02 fredericd obviously
13:02 fredericd the advanced search template must have changed
13:03 Fred ok, i am adding the 'w' then
13:04 fredericd do it, reindex, and tell me if it works: then a patch must be send (will do it)
13:05 Fred ok
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13:14 Fred doesn t work
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13:19 fredericd Fred: Have already modified you records.abs in the past? Where is your Koha biblionumber in your biblio record? In standard field?
13:19 nengard laurenthd I emailed you - i can email to the docs list, but i can't administer it anymore ... the password appears to have changed.
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13:25 Fred yes already modified record.abs, biblionumber is on 090$9
13:35 fredericd Fred: it can be tricky. For me, your issue comes from zebra config. But it's very difficult to say where exactly without access to your config
13:37 Fred yes i understand, could i see something in logs?
13:40 fredericd Fred: yes, that's a good idea. You can try to do a tail -f <koha-zebra-log.err> file. See what happens when you do the request which fails
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13:43 owen Hi #koha
13:44 kf hi owen
13:47 Fred ok let me try to explore koha-zebra-log.err
13:54 Fred sorry i am always a bit lost with those log files, his name is koha-zebra-log.err?
13:57 fredericd not exactly... Go you Koha var/log directory. Find the file which contain zebra and ends with .err
13:57 Fred ok
13:58 fredericd or ends with .log...
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14:00 Fred hmm got only koha-zebradaemon-output.log or koha-zebradaemon.err
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14:10 * owen wonders how many votes a "user friendly framework editor" needs to get before it appears out of thin air
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14:15 hdl Fred koha-zebradaemon-output.log that's the one.
14:16 hdl Fred and you can also come onto koha-fr if you want
14:22 Fred thanks, need to explore that file, and will come asap on koha-fr too (need to get used with IRC first)
14:26 Fred is it possible it comes from koha more than zebra, and from search.pl specially?
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15:02 hdl Fred : could come from some of the system preferences.
15:03 hdl Fred : you can test with CLI to see whether it answer basic queries.
15:06 Fred i ve been looking at how zebrasrv going live, i found some weird things
15:07 drulm all is quiet on the open source front
15:08 Fred something like :  Search biblios ERROR 114 1 1+0 RPN @attrset Bib-1 @or @or @attr 1=12 @attr 4=1 @attr 6=3 @attr 9=32 @attr 2=102 820 @attr 1=12 @attr 4=1 @attr 9=26 @attr 2=102 820 @attr 1=12 @attr 5=1 @attr 4=6 @attr 9=26 @attr 2=102 820
15:09 drulm Q: is anyone talking about how moving to Solr in terms of having a z39.50 server? Is there a way to do this with Solr or will Zebra still need to be in there just for the z39.50, alternatives?
15:09 drulm Perhaps this could be a question for the upcoming meeting
15:10 fredericd Fred: that's it! (si je puis dire)
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15:12 Fred good :)
15:13 laurenthd drulm: we are developping a solr2RPN module.
15:14 hdl drulm: no in fact we are developping an RPN2solr module.
15:15 hdl And plan to use that in a Z3950 server.
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15:16 drulm Nice
15:16 hdl Fred : it seems that you have a problem with relevancy. Check that you have Title-host defined and used.
15:17 owen koha.org strikes again.
15:17 jcamins owen++ # for being really fast
15:17 Fred ok
15:18 wizzyrea1 heh
15:18 wizzyrea1 and I was all worried that I had done something dumb and forgotten to update the download page on k-c.org
15:19 jcamins owen: that's a great subject line for an e-mail... "Blood"
15:20 wizzyrea1 is now known as wizzyrea
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15:27 * slef tries to thaw out
15:33 Fred Title-host is defined in record.abs, not in bib1 or ccl
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16:11 nengard Bleh .. got to airport too early.. wish traffic was more predictible
16:13 owen Bonus airport time!
16:13 wizzyrea boo airport time
16:18 nengard Heh
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16:19 nengard_ love me some tethering :)
16:19 rhcl I'd love to have your ff miles.
16:19 nengard_ heh
16:19 sekjal nengard_: is your tethering more reliable?
16:19 nengard_ I'm actually only silver - thought I'd make gold this year but it doesn't look like I will
16:19 sekjal I made a change on mine that seems to help[
16:20 nengard_ sekjal, more reliable than what? it has seemed more reliable lately in general
16:20 sekjal than before
16:20 nengard_ oh - which tethering app were you using?
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16:20 sekjal Wireless Tether
16:20 nengard_ i'm on easytether
16:20 sekjal ah
16:20 nengard_ wireless tether i wasn't able to make it work
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16:24 Fred still with my zebra searching error : i ve added some attributes to 'sn' in ccl.properties (4=109 2=3 3=1 perhaps a bit too much?) and now searching is going fine...
16:27 Fred Thanks for all the help provided!
16:36 fredericd Fred: No it's good. In the normal ccl file, sn seems to be configured to search the 'w' (word) index rather than the 'n' (numeric)
16:37 fredericd with your modif, you search the numeric index, strict equality and first in field (which can't be bad)
16:39 Fred oh great :)
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16:41 fredericd Fred: You could go intro trouble tomorrow if your sn index is populated with non-numeric values, otherwise it's ok
16:43 Fred ok i note it, i was about asking about possible troubles as i was not sure to have 'really' resolved the main problem
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16:45 wizzyrea damn you apple − w
16:48 jcamins wizzyrea: I'm sure chris would point out that's not a problem on free OSes.
16:48 jcamins ;)
16:48 wizzyrea sure it is ;)
16:49 wizzyrea it's just another key + w
16:49 wizzyrea :D
16:49 jcamins No, it's Ctrl+W. :P
16:49 jcamins Completely different.
16:49 wizzyrea mmm hmm.
16:49 wizzyrea they also make you cookies for breakfast
16:49 wizzyrea and bring world peace
16:50 brendan world peace++
16:50 jcamins Yep.
16:50 jcamins If it weren't for thre three of us, apparently there would be.
16:50 wizzyrea >.<
16:50 trea rabblerousers, the whole lot :D
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16:53 jcamins Okay, time to head out.
16:54 jcamins So long, #koha.
16:54 jcamins is now known as jcamins_a
16:54 Fred good bye everyone!
16:55 nengard_ plane at gate
16:55 nengard_ talk to you all later
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16:55 wizzyrea bye
16:55 wizzyrea bleh
16:55 Fred left #koha
16:56 hdl Fred fredericd : as a side note, be warned that completeness or firstinfield doesnot seem to work in icu,
16:56 hdl in that case, n is not indexed with icu. So would not be a problem.
16:56 hdl But... It is better when you know.
16:58 owen Hmmm... Nifty new feature fails in IE8. Wondering how much I should care...
16:59 fredericd hdl: thanks for the info
16:59 hdl i think it is owed to the way that icu is processing the chains.
17:00 wizzyrea which nifty feature
17:00 fredericd it may work with DOM, which requires works, a lot of...
17:02 owen wizzyrea: Bug 5285
17:02 munin Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=5285 enhancement, P5, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED, Let the user choose columns to show batch modification summary table
17:02 owen (at least I think it's nifty)
17:02 wizzyrea oo yea
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17:04 jwagner owen, there are still LOTS of sites whose IT departments only allow them to use IE, so I'd be leery of adding something that is known not to work in even the latest IE.
17:05 owen Never ceases to amaze me... the slowest, most insecure browser...
17:05 jwagner I know.  Don't think I haven't pointed that out at GREAT length....
17:06 owen I guess I'll just hide this feature away and hope IE9 is better. Or maybe IE10.
17:06 * owen puts it in a crate next to the Ark of the Covenant
17:06 jwagner It can't be done in some other way?  The idea is definitely nifty.
17:07 trea heh
17:07 owen In some other way? As in with no CSS or Javascript? Maybe...
17:07 * owen stabs himself with a pen
17:07 * jwagner doesn't know what tools owen is using, so doesn't know what to suggest
17:08 * jwagner is also not a web developer so wouldn't have any ideas along that line anyway :-(
17:12 * owen hides the whole feature from IE
17:12 wizzyrea owen++
17:17 kf left #koha
17:19 wizzyrea hm, I guess the conversation about required versions of things died
17:22 * chris waves from the wellington airport
17:22 wizzyrea where ya headed?
17:22 chris Bucklame
17:23 wizzyrea teehee
17:23 chris 2 days of training and then a go live
17:23 * jwagner hopes it isn't too windy at the airport....
17:23 wizzyrea fun fun
17:23 wizzyrea our flight out was perfectly lovely ^.^
17:24 jwagner Both of mine were rather bouncy.
17:24 chris Nope, mind you this must literally be the 100th time I've flown out of here bounces don't bother me
17:24 wizzyrea coming in on the other hand...
17:25 jwagner I did have my doubts about landing, watching as we kept descending -- "I don't _THINK_ I booked a seaplane!"
17:26 wizzyrea the day we did it we had to have at least 2 whacks at the landing
17:27 jwagner Next time I go to Wellington, I'm driving or taking the train down from Auckland....
17:29 chris Pshaw
17:29 chris If you didn't actually bounce
17:29 chris Its all good
17:29 * jwagner congratulates chris on his native insouciance!
17:29 trea heh
17:29 wizzyrea plus there hasn't yet been a crash
17:29 chris Nope never
17:30 wizzyrea but I imagine the train ride, after 13 hours on a plane, would be a lovely change from yet more airport.
17:30 * chris has bounced, and landed hard twice
17:30 chris In fog
17:30 trea erg
17:30 chris That was fun
17:30 wizzyrea lol don't tell trea that!
17:30 trea did they all clap when you were stopped
17:30 trea hehe
17:30 chris Yep
17:30 wizzyrea well they clapped on ours too
17:30 trea that was pretty much worth it imo
17:31 chris Well those not from wellington anyway :)
17:31 wizzyrea though the flight attendants did tell us to toughen up ;)
17:31 wizzyrea we lol'd
17:31 chris Landing at the old hong kong airport was more scary
17:31 chris Look up kai tak landings on youtube
17:32 wizzyrea !!!!
17:32 rhcl yep, HK was an experience. Flying right between buildings.
17:32 chris I only did that twice
17:32 chris And planes did crash there
17:32 chris Ok boarding, spotya
17:32 wizzyrea later safe travels
17:33 rhcl syl
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18:03 mib_lvwvr hello everybody!  how I can activate the cron fines?
18:04 trea left #koha
18:06 mib_lvwvr could somebody help me, please.
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18:06 cait fredericd: around?
18:07 mib_lvwvr how I can activate the  fines.pl
18:08 cait you can start it manually for testing, but in production ou will want to use a cronjob to start it regularl
18:08 cait y
18:11 mib_lvwvr como configuro el cron?
18:11 mib_lvwvr how to set up cron?
18:11 owen mib_lvwvr: I suggest you google "how to set up cron"
18:14 fredericd cait: yes, almost
18:15 cait ah, was reading your mail about the sys prefs
18:15 fredericd you may not agree :-)
18:15 cait I have not looked at 3.2 yet, but I imagine the problem exists there too
18:16 cait we will loose some featurs (like translations for salutations) by using the english files - but i think it's still the way to go
18:16 fredericd yes, 3.2 is a stable version and is not supposed to have entering a lot of new syspref
18:16 cait only voting for a fast solution, that we can perhaps port back to 3.2
18:16 cait yes, but what about the existing files?
18:17 fredericd can't we keep them for 3.2 and remove them on HEAD when a patch will force using exlusively 'en' syspref SQL file?
18:17 cait we can
18:18 cait but I will fix the German sys pref file if we will do that
18:18 cait for 3.21
18:18 fredericd yes and german syspref file seems almost up to date
18:18 cait it's the newest file
18:19 cait the other translations are older
18:19 cait German was added near or in feature freeze of 3.2 - so I am lucky here
18:19 cait and it's not really translated, only things like father, mother, mrs. mr. etc.
18:20 cait but I am still not happy knowing about the problem in the other files :(
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18:24 cait hi Nate
18:24 Nate hiya cait!
18:27 cait fredericd:  it's me - low bug tolerance ;)
18:29 fredericd it's a tribute to you :-)
18:30 sekjal is now known as sekjal_a
18:33 cait fredericd: not so sure :)
18:35 slef I'd not heard that called tethering before.  Live and learn.
18:43 jwagner is now known as jwag_mtg
18:44 cait slef: so you can explain the term to me?
18:45 slef Tethering in cellular wireless is the connection of a non-mobile device (e.g. desktop computer, notebook computer, laptop computer), to a mobile device (e.g. cell phone, PDA) for the purpose of wireless Internet access by the non-mobile "tethered" device. Examples of a tethered connection include: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethering
18:45 slef
18:46 slef I think we called it PAN (personal area networking) or mifi (mobile-to-wifi), but it might be something slightly different.
18:46 cait thx - should have checked wikipedia - only tried leo to get a translation
18:47 slef I've a two-line script called "wp" to do quick lookups:
18:47 slef PROXY="$*"
18:47 slef host -aQ "${PROXY// /_}.wp.dg.cx" | sed -e 's/" "//g;s/"$//;s/\\"/"/g;s/^.*"//'
18:47 slef
18:47 slef
18:47 cait ?
18:48 slef so I typed "wp tethering" to get the above explanation
18:48 slef It's not the more understanable script ever ;-)
18:50 cait yeah, looks like magic
18:51 cait ok, time to destroy my kitchen in an attempt to make pumkin soup
18:55 slef ohyeah... Did I ask the newzealanders why they had so many pumpkins on the menu in their spring?  Do they grow a lot there, or are they imported?
19:00 cait no idea :)
19:01 wizzyrea http://www.pumpkinnook.com/commune/nzgrowers.htm but it looks like their pumpkin harvest is in march (seems likely, as that's fall)
19:03 wizzyrea and yet more: http://www.gardengrow.co.nz/plant/Pumpkin
19:03 wizzyrea plant in oct/nov/dec
19:03 wizzyrea though I guess in the north you can plant them anytime between August and Feb
19:04 wizzyrea so yea, that's probably why they have lots of pumpkin, because they've got several different climates conducive to pumpkin growing nearly year round
19:09 cait wizzyrea++ :)
19:10 wizzyrea < is not an expert, however, just sayin
19:17 sylvar What's the usual practice for handling complicated names for borrowers? For example, would Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. have a surname of "King, Jr.", a firstname of "Martin Luther", and a title of "Dr."?
19:18 wizzyrea that's how we do it
19:18 * sylvar won't get into names like "Rasd-Coduresa Diziet Embless Sma da' Marenhide" ;)
19:19 wizzyrea O.O
19:19 sylvar Fictional. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture#Names
19:19 wizzyrea :)
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19:31 darling helo koha land
19:32 wizzyrea mornin darling
19:37 brendan morning
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19:38 hdl hi there.
19:38 owen sylvar: We do surname = "King, Jr."
19:39 sylvar Cool. Thanks, owen & wizzyrea.
19:39 cait hi brendan and hdl
19:39 chris_n cait && fredericd: I'm about finished adding missing sysprefs to the other language .sql files, but they are not translated of course
19:39 owen sylvar: And we do it that way so that interactions with the patron make sense. You don't want end up sending a notice to "Dr. Martin Jr. Luther King"
19:39 cait chris_n++++
19:39 chris_n that will fix the failed tests
19:40 cait and thx for telling - I was about starting with it hehe
19:40 chris_n but something needs to be determined *and* posted on the coding section of the wiki and announced on the list
19:40 cait yeah
19:40 chris_n so that we don't continue with a mixture
19:40 owen Now cait you have to give him a single:
19:40 * cait thinks that too
19:40 owen chris_n++
19:40 cait chris_n++?
19:41 * chris_n wonders if some of the prefs the test states need to be removed really are just not in the en .sql file yet
19:41 chris_n and so we lose new prefs that way
19:41 owen I don't think they count if you do four ++++
19:41 cait chris_n: what are the prefs it complains about?
19:42 chris_n fredericd: if your explanation is the current mode, then I have no problem
19:42 chris_n cait: too may to list
19:42 cait an example?
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19:42 * chris_n semi-automated the updating based on the output of the test script
19:42 cait ah
19:42 clrh Hello everybody
19:43 cait hi clrh
19:43 * cait needs to do such cool things too
19:43 cait needs to learn how to do...
19:44 Brooke joined #koha
19:45 cait hi Brooke
19:45 Brooke howdy :)
19:45 bigbrovar hi guys
19:45 Brooke hi bigbrovar.
19:46 bigbrovar hello Brooke
19:46 cait chris_n: if the files are fixed now I think we should maintain them in HEAD - or find another solution soon
19:47 wizzyrea I wonder if we can remove the patron notes fields now that we have the messaging system
19:48 wizzyrea spose you'd have to find a way to migrate that data into the messages
19:48 wizzyrea migrate existing* data
19:48 cait wizzyrea: I think having different ways is nice
19:48 Brooke cait++
19:49 wizzyrea I think it's confusing
19:49 mib_lvwvr left #koha
19:49 wizzyrea but that's just me
19:49 cait wizzyrea: you can hide them with jquery ;)
19:49 wizzyrea it's like belt + suspenders
19:49 wizzyrea of course you can.
19:52 druthb joined #koha
19:53 cait hi druthb :)
19:53 druthb hi, cait.  :)
19:53 * Brooke offers druthb a G&T.
19:53 cait G&T?
19:53 * druthb takes it, and sips carefully.
19:53 hdl hi all.
19:53 * cait sniffs a little because she never gets what Brooke says ;)
19:54 Brooke Clearly I need to pick up more German, Cait.
19:54 druthb Gin and tonic, cait.  :)
19:54 cait thx :)
19:54 cait or I need to work on my vocabulary :)
19:55 Brooke prolly wouldn't help. I am guilty of vast logical leaps and far too much humour.
19:57 * Brooke is steeling herself for waking early on the morrow.
19:57 tcohen left #koha
19:57 chris_n cait: I agree, and as fredericd notes, they may not need translation due to the .pref files now
19:58 wizzyrea brooke: i'm surprised you're even here ^.^
19:58 hdl about to start meeting on solr ?
19:58 Colin joined #koha
19:58 hdl Hi Colin
19:58 Colin Hi
19:58 Brooke Hi Colin
19:58 francharb joined #koha
19:58 * slef tries to thaw out
19:58 cait chris_n: we loose some small things by using english translation though - but things you can fix without sql - standard salutations, relationship names
19:59 thd-away is now known as thd
19:59 * Brooke hands slef a G&T.
19:59 * hdl will try to do some semi automated minutes
19:59 hdl #startmeeting solr search 7 December
19:59 munin Meeting started Tue Dec  7 20:00:45 2010 UTC.  The chair is hdl. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:59 munin Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:59 Topic for #koha is now  (Meeting topic: solr search 7 December)
19:59 hdl Hi all
19:59 slef hi hdl!
20:00 hdl First we could make a call of the persons and then begin on the agenda I published from the email.
20:00 hdl http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]i/7_December_2010
20:01 * hdl = Henri-Damien LAURENT, BibLibre
20:01 thd Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
20:01 druthb == D Ruth Bavousett, Washington DC
20:01 * slef = MJ Ray, worker-owner, software.coop
20:01 * clrh Claire Hernandez, Biblibre
20:01 Colin Colin Campbell PTFS-Europe
20:01 wizzyrea Liz Rea, NEKLS, Lurking
20:02 cait Katrin Fischer, BSZ
20:02 owen Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library, lurking
20:02 cfouts Clay Fouts, PTFS/LibLime
20:02 darling Reed Wade, Catalyst
20:02 * jcamins_a = Jared Camins-Esakov, C & P Bibliography Services, lurking
20:03 hdl ok. If anyone arrives late please chime in.
20:04 hdl #topic Why we investigated solr
20:04 Topic for #koha is now Why we investigated solr (Meeting topic: solr search 7 December)
20:04 hdl Reasons why we investiguated was that
20:04 hdl everyone agreed that C4::Search needed deep revamping.
20:05 hdl And we have had many problems with the actual implementation of zebra in Koha
20:05 chris_n Chris Nighswonger, FBC
20:05 hdl problems with the hard coded indexes
20:06 hdl Problem with the untranslatable strings from search
20:06 hdl Problem with the unability for users to order the indexes on advanced search page.
20:06 hdl Problem also with the search engine itself :
20:07 hdl It proved quite a nightmare to know if indexing was ok.
20:07 hdl It also proved that some announced features were not quite meeting the demand.
20:08 hdl (facets, but also icu is quite disapointing.... since all the features in RPN are not embedded.
20:08 hdl Completeness for instance.
20:08 hdl And left truncation).
20:08 hdl All this has already been said...
20:09 hdl But I want to tell the context that prompted us into invetigating.
20:09 clrh #link http://www.biblibre.com/en/blo[…]lopments-for-koha
20:09 hdl any problem with what i am stating... ?
20:09 thd The untranslatable strings problem is mistaken if the query is intercepted for translation or if a translation is provided for CCL, CQL, Solr/Lucene, etc. query configuration..
20:10 hdl well when you go  on the results page.
20:10 hdl it is truly ccl search that is printed.
20:10 hdl ti,wrdl=huckleberry finn
20:10 hdl Is not user friendly.
20:11 hdl And More, some usage we are now doing of zebra is announced to be obsolete...
20:11 thd Certainly, but the user unfriendliness could be factored out and translated to the unfriendly form if the query is intercepted.
20:12 hdl we are using grs1 when DOM indexing is favoured... but would have required much time to build...
20:12 collum left #koha
20:12 slef Well, I think my problems with solr and my doubts with some of the accusations against zebra I've stated on the list, so I won't repeat them here unless you want them repeated.
20:13 hdl And most of the xslt embedded are cut out for USMARC where UNIMARC is not supporter.
20:13 slef I agree that some of the problems are with our usage of it, though, so C4::Search probably must change anyway.
20:13 wizzyrea left #koha
20:13 hdl ok slef... I will talk about what solr would bring along. and what we did...
20:13 wizzyrea joined #koha
20:14 hdl #topic solr : what it brings along and what we did
20:14 Topic for #koha is now solr : what it brings along and what we did (Meeting topic: solr search 7 December)
20:14 thd Some of the problems are problems of adding UNIMARC support which is a problem that does not go away by using Solr/Lucene.
20:14 darling slef, hdl -- depends on if the topic is "swap/deprecate zebra for solr" or "add support for solr as an alt search engine"
20:14 Nate Nate Curulla, ByWater Solutions... Sorry for the lateness
20:14 hdl thd part of it yes.
20:15 hdl Solr brings along a widely used search engine.
20:15 hdl With the ability to do full text indexing of documents.
20:15 hdl And with many built in features.
20:15 hdl utf8 support
20:15 hdl facets.
20:16 hdl And all the things we explain in the blog.
20:16 rhcl rhcl = Greg Lawson, Rolling Hills Consolidated Library, lurker
20:16 hdl darling: I acknowledge that solr should be an option.
20:17 hdl But change in a search engine in an ILS is quite strategic.
20:17 ibot hdl: that doesn't look right
20:17 ibot left #koha
20:17 ibot joined #koha
20:17 * druthb giggles at ibot.
20:17 thd Solr/Lucene uses Java ICU which based on the same core ICU code as the C ICU used in Zebra.
20:17 hdl But we have limited time.
20:18 hdl And limited ressource.
20:18 cait hdl: so you are not implementing it as an option?
20:18 hdl cait at the moment, no.
20:18 hdl Because we signed and are due to deliver a product on a specific time.
20:19 hdl So we made a choice.
20:19 hdl And we try to do it so that zebra can then be reintroduced.
20:19 cait I think there are valid concerns about solr - so that it should at least be an option at first
20:19 thd ICU = International Components for Unicode a well supported project providing a Unicode programming library supported by IBM etc.
20:20 hdl thd icu support in zebra is rather poor compared to the icu syntax and possibility.
20:20 cait I am concerned about replacing it so fast - as you said it's an important feature of an ILS
20:21 hdl cait: we are trying to gather all the use cases so that features are not lost.
20:21 hdl We are building on top of Data::SearchEngine and Data::Pagination
20:21 thd As hdl identifies, the method of calling the ICU in Zebra is an awkward add on from the point when Zebra had no Unicode support.
20:21 clrh #link http://search.cpan.org/~gphat/[…]a/SearchEngine.pm
20:22 hdl Data::SearchEngine can be adapted in order to build RPN and CCL queries and work nicely with zebra.
20:22 hdl I bet it is doable.
20:22 hdl But again, we have limited ressources.
20:22 hdl And limitted time.
20:23 hdl We work as crazy in order to make the whole change and have some very promising results.
20:23 clrh #link http://catalogue.solr.biblibre.com/
20:24 clrh #link http://solr.biblibre.com/
20:24 hdl the two interfaces we built are there for you to try, test.
20:24 hdl On intranet there is a demo/demo account.
20:24 thd There is an English expression, if you break it you have bought it which must have an equivalent in many languages.  However, most of us recognise that the work should be done and is of importance to everyone.
20:24 drulm joined #koha
20:25 drulm Hello. git version question: I am drawing from git://git.koha-community.org/koha.git
20:25 hdl You can then see the how the indexes can be edited and queried.
20:25 wizzyrea drulm:  we're in a meeting
20:25 slef drulm: /msg me please, a meeting is on.
20:25 hdl and then you can see the page for indexes :
20:26 clrh #link http://solr.biblibre.com/cgi-b[…]a/solr/indexes.pl
20:26 hdl you can add some indexes, and link them to the index user define.
20:26 hdl And there are some plugins that we can add.
20:26 hdl We already designed plugins as to search for rejected forms.
20:27 hdl And usage of authorities in biblio records.
20:27 hdl At the moment,
20:27 hdl we gather use cases sa as not to loose any query that we could do in zebra.
20:28 thd hdl: I am concerned that CCL, Pazpar2, and Zebra support should not be an either that or Solr/Lucene option.  We need CCL and Pazpar2 for metasearch and we currently need Zebra for a Z39.50/SRU server.
20:28 clrh #ŀink https://spreadsheets.google.co[…]hl=en&output=html
20:28 hdl thd : in the commits of the wip/solr branch of our git,
20:29 hdl you can see the first commits for a Z3950 search engine on top of solr...
20:29 hdl using SimpleServer
20:29 hdl At the moment, the queries decoded are only simple queries.
20:29 clrh #link http://git.biblibre.com/?p=koh[…]fs/heads/wip/solr
20:29 hdl But we will work by the end of the year to have something.
20:30 hdl more powerful and answering the needs.
20:30 thd hdl: It is the limitation of query support which concerns me for the Z39.50/SRU server as we have to write that ourselves.
20:30 thd ... for SimpleServer,
20:31 hdl Well, since JZ3950 was proven to be quite ... disappointing.
20:31 hdl We will build a grammar....
20:31 thd hdl: Do you mean JZKit?
20:31 hdl thd: yes.
20:32 sekjal_a is now known as sekjal
20:32 hdl It seems that memory consumption goes exploding.
20:33 hdl thd: have you been in contact with the company working on that ?
20:33 hdl Is there some fix for that ?
20:33 thd I have investigated JZKit deeply as well as options from Index Data.
20:34 thd I do not have a full set of responses but have been writing a detailed report for the RFC.
20:34 thd The only hope of fixing issues is a support contract.
20:35 thd Even some cryptic options in SimpleServer would need a support contract to understand well.
20:35 hdl Well we envision a support contract, but more on solr issues than on zebra or z3950.
20:35 thd Simple2Zoom is another option in principle for a Z39.50/SRU server.
20:35 slef On the exploding memory consumption theme: my big concern with solr is *its* memory usage (reportedly at least a gigabyte, more than all of koha 3.0 including a base OS, which would mean more expensive servers would be needed for koha libraries).  How is solr memory usage on biblibre servers?
20:36 hdl well, it has been quite slow. even indexing 300000 biblios.
20:36 hdl We never stressed it severely though.
20:37 hdl But it is a thing we will do.
20:37 thd I personally favour SimpleServer at the moment but Ian Ibbotson from Knowledge Integration and Sebastian Hammer from Index Data indirectly alerted me to an important problem for having a Z39,50/SRU server.
20:37 darling for what it's worth, at Catalyst we use it from time to time -- there are setups than run very smoothly and make no trouble; there are some where it sometimes goes insane
20:38 darling we have a practise of putting each solr intance on an isolated vm for that reason
20:39 thd hdl: How do you intend to return full MARC records for a Z39.50/SRU server when using Solr/Lucene?
20:39 Brooke what would be a reasonable benchmark?
20:39 Colin Did you evaluate any other options apart from Solr?
20:39 hdl indexing marcxml data or even iso2709
20:39 Brooke and how do we compare apples to apples with the current iterations absent performance guidelines?
20:40 hdl Colin: other options could be Nutch or so...
20:40 darling I'm working on a project right now that's indexing about 40k documents of about 5k of structured text each and it's so far not been trouble -- and it's very fast and sweet -- but tricky to configure and gives unclear error messages when it fails -- I like it but don't yet trust it
20:40 hdl But solr is quite a standard nowadays.
20:40 thd hdl: Solr/Lucene corrupts ISO2709 records.  Lucene has a binary storage type which Solr/Lucene does not.
20:40 slef Who has declared it a standard?
20:41 cait hdl: I think you can not argument everybody else is using it
20:41 thd hdl: The experience of BlackLight is very informative on the issue of storing full bibliographic records in Solr/Lucene.
20:41 darling slef, it's widely used engouh that I would call it a standardish solution
20:41 hdl slef: at least, it is wide spread. and is doing quite a good job "out of the box."
20:41 cait I really have a bad feeling about a hasty replacement
20:41 hdl and i know at least 4 solutions using solr.
20:42 hdl cait it may not be for 3.4
20:42 cait we should start with an option, if most people start using it we can drop zebra perhaps sometime in the future
20:42 slef darling: those are the same sort of arguments which lead to calling Windows "standard" which I don't ;-)
20:42 thd hdl: Which 4 solutions do you mean?
20:42 darling slef, fair enough
20:42 hdl But I think that we had to share the point we achieved.
20:42 Brooke cait++
20:43 druthb cait++
20:43 hdl Vufind, BlackLight, Drupal and XC (but it is durpal based)
20:43 thd slef: MS Windows standard :)
20:43 hdl We had no time doing that.
20:44 cait all those are discovery interfaces - no ILs
20:44 slef drupal uses solr?  I thought it was some extension module
20:44 hdl And it is really time consuming without any tests... or use case... to build regression tests.
20:44 clrh it is an extension module more and more used slef
20:44 thd hdl: in the case of the OPACS such as VuFind and BlackLight remember that they are merely OPACs with the real library system and its own OPAC underneath.
20:44 darling cait++, and I would expect that the integration would be in such a way that would facilitate slipping in things other than solr later (or sooner, like for smaller setups)
20:45 hdl darling: Data::SearchEngine::Zebra... COULD be written.
20:45 slef clrh: which still doesn't make it drupal.
20:45 darling (our use of solr here is mostly for drupal sites we run)
20:45 hdl But we donot have any ressource on that.
20:45 hdl C4::Search Had to be revamped...
20:46 hdl And we began the work. And we come to you in order to show you what we achieved.
20:46 hdl And say we are at this point of the road...
20:47 hdl But we won't be able to do the whole lot alone...
20:47 hdl And it would just be insane.
20:47 thd hdl: I will add a more important case to your count which at least demonstrates scalability in a relatively simple configuration if money is spent on hardware.  Wikipedia uses Lucene indexing via some extensions.  If it scales for Wikipedia it can really scale with the hardware caveat.
20:48 thd No one should expect BibLibre to do this alone any more than we expected LibLime to add Zebra support alone.
20:48 Brooke thd++
20:48 hdl Installer should be ok with solr now. We have an installing option for solr core support.
20:49 cait thd: noZebra was kept as an option
20:49 hdl (but yes, only solr)
20:49 Brooke what can't be expected is collaboration for a BibLibre deadline when other individuals have their own timeframes and projects.
20:49 thd LibLime funded support contracts for Zebra on their own but that was not necessarily a reasonable option.
20:49 bigbrovar left #koha
20:49 hdl cait : but quite rapidly deprecated.
20:49 hdl Brooke: I donot ask for more than what ppl are willing to do.
20:50 hdl At least just consider what we do...
20:50 Brooke I am aware of that. It is important to note that distinction, too.
20:50 hdl And let us work together... rather than in //
20:50 Brooke How do we reconcile profitability with community? Agility with stability?
20:51 Brooke Today it is solr/zebra, tomorrow it will be something else.
20:51 hdl use cases and regression tests.
20:51 hdl look at the ggl page.
20:51 hdl you have your use cases : add yours
20:51 hdl you think of a use case.
20:51 hdl add itt
20:51 thd cait: I agree with the assertion which paul_p has made, that long term support for multiple record indexing models has proven too much for the size of the Koha project support community  in the past.
20:52 slef I'll poll our libraries, but I suspect the concerns of needing java and lots more memory will outweigh the benefits, including some of the claims I questioned without any reply.
20:52 hdl there are plenty ways to do.
20:52 hdl slef: I will try and assing all the questions you asked.
20:52 slef I don't think there's any point polling our members for whether we could fund it from our community fund because it involves java, which is no fun.
20:52 slef What's the ggl page?
20:53 clrh #link https://spreadsheets.google.co[…]c3b2c&hl=en#gid=1
20:53 thd cait: I agree with you that we should retain options until we are satisfied that the Solr/Lucene solution is ready to replace Zebra for local indexing.
20:53 clrh oups maybe bad link
20:53 darling I have to run off to a mtg right now. My parting thoughts are: solr is tasty but not a simple option, I suspect we will be glad once it's in and , pocket sized installations shouldn't have to use it
20:53 slef clrh: "Sign in to your account at BibLibre"?
20:53 clrh #link https://spreadsheets.google.co[…]hl=en&output=html
20:53 clrh better?
20:54 hdl in the 5 last minutes.
20:54 darling slef, integrating w/it doesn't mean needing to deal w/java (though app server config matters would be a thing)
20:54 hdl #topic what could be done
20:54 Topic for #koha is now what could be done (Meeting topic: solr search 7 December)
20:54 slef clrh: how do I add "run on a 512Mb server" to it? ;-)
20:54 hdl Data::SearchEgine::Zebra
20:55 hdl could be written with a Data::SearchEngine::Query
20:55 hdl We could also build dynamically fomrs
20:55 hdl We could achieve relevancy.
20:56 hdl And do some on the fly weighting.
20:56 slef yeah, this is a basic problem I'm having... what's the incentive for someone to write||fund Data::SearchEngine::Zebra? Zebra currently works for most people most of the time.
20:56 hdl most people... not in France.
20:57 hdl slef: have you ever tried to fix a C4::Search bug ?
20:57 hdl Have you ever dived into that code ?
20:57 hdl It really needed revamping.
20:57 thd slef  One hopes that the work involved in refactoring Zebra support to not be the only option would be very much less than the work in adding Solr/Lucene support.
20:58 hdl We began the work.
20:58 hdl And tried to do something quite SearchEngine Independant.
20:58 slef hdl: I've no memory and searching suggests not.
20:58 jwag_mtg is now known as jwagner
20:58 hdl of what ?
20:58 thd hdl++ SearchEngine independence
20:58 slef <hdl> slef: have you ever tried to fix a C4::Search bug ?
20:59 cait hdl: sorry, I think it could be improved, but saying it does not work at all seems not right to me
20:59 slef thd: sure, but it's still not zero.
20:59 hdl cait: I donot say it doesnot work at all.
20:59 hdl It works.
20:59 thd slef: Yes, which is why BibLibre is hoping that you will help.
20:59 hdl But not always. and not on all the features it claims to provide.
20:59 jwagner left #koha
21:00 hdl For instance availability search is not working.
21:01 hdl We are trying to make it so that what we claim to do. We actually do.
21:02 hdl It is quite frustrating we could not take out with a real plan... or actions out of this meeting.
21:02 hdl At least, we wanted to come to you and share all the stuff we did.
21:02 slef thd: Yes, it does look like BibLibre asking others to work for free. :-(  For reasons explained above, I don't see how to make this paid.
21:02 thd hdl: Some people have doubted that problems with Zebra when using the ICU are Zebra problems.  I could test at least one of those problems readily with my own non-Koha code which has been well tested for character encoding if you provide a Z39.50 server with claimed problems.
21:03 thd slef: The most significant problem I see reported for Zebra is one which hdl does not repeat clearly.
21:03 slef It is frustrating that there is no conclusion to this.
21:03 slef Now I must go elsewhere.  Sorry.  Bye all.
21:03 thd slef: There are reports of Zebra failing.
21:04 thd slef: This is free software.  It is never finished. :)
21:04 Brooke is now known as Brooke_a
21:04 hdl No conclusion... Because we have to work and either make that happen or make another thing happe.
21:04 hdl n
21:05 sekjal left #koha
21:05 thd hdl: I am sorry that I did not have my report ready well in advance of the meeting.
21:05 hdl any question you have, any comments on the way we did things. you can tell us.
21:05 clrh we really wants to work with you this is why we are here...
21:05 thd hdl: I have been very detailed which takes much time.
21:05 clrh I'll try to be more present on the channel next weeks
21:06 hdl on list, or by chan.
21:06 hdl Thanks for your interest. I hope that you can test and send patches or at least see what we achieved.
21:06 thd hdl: What is the function of the use of YAML in your proof of concept or work in progress especially in bulkmarcimport.pl?
21:07 hdl thd: let me end the meeting
21:07 hdl and will answer you.
21:07 thd OK
21:07 hdl #endmeeting
21:07 Topic for #koha is now Welcome to #koha - www.koha-community.org.  Koha 3.2.1 is Now Available - Next general meeting on 8 December 2010 at 10:00 UTC+0.  This channel is logged.
21:07 munin Meeting ended Tue Dec  7 21:08:37 2010 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
21:07 munin Minutes:        http://librarypolice.com/koha-[…]-12-07-20.00.html
21:07 munin Minutes (text): http://librarypolice.com/koha-[…]0-12-07-20.00.txt
21:07 munin Log:            http://librarypolice.com/koha-[…]07-20.00.log.html
21:07 Colin left #koha
21:07 hdl Next meeting on wendnesday 15th
21:08 hdl at 11AM UTC
21:08 druthb left #koha
21:09 druthb joined #koha
21:09 hdl thd we are using YAML in order to link authorities...
21:09 thd hdl: PM as you wrote in your mailing list message is meaningless for UTC.  AM avoids possible confusion of some people.
21:10 hdl thd can you give me a link to the file you speack about ?
21:10 thd hdl: How does YAML help for linking authorities, and why did I not use it in addbiblio.pl?
21:11 * thd finding link
21:11 hdl Well I am producing a YAML from authority import
21:11 hdl with Koha authority id and the Heading and the authority record id
21:12 hdl And then when I import a biblio file which have links to authorities... I load this YAML file and builds the links.
21:12 thd hdl: http://git.biblibre.com/?p=koh[…]fs/heads/wip/solr
21:13 owen left #koha
21:14 thd hdl: I try too understand your work deeply, although, I mostly concentraited on how to fix the Z39.50/SRU server issue.
21:17 thd hdl: How does YAML help specifically as opposed to not using YAML or how links between biblios and authorities had been built previously.  I think that YAML may have many uses so my curiosity was sparked when I noticed use of YAML.
21:21 mib_wt1h7 joined #koha
21:23 mib_wt1h7 left #koha
21:24 druthb left #koha
21:29 Brooke_a is now known as Brooke
21:32 cait good night all
21:32 cait left #koha
21:33 thd good night cait
21:38 clrh good night
21:40 clrh left #koha
21:48 hdl good night all
21:51 Brooke right. I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date.
21:51 Brooke left #koha
21:53 hdl left #koha
21:53 thd good night hdl
21:56 drulm Hello, is the meeting still on
22:01 wizzyrea no sir :)
22:02 wizzyrea you said you were having a problem with git?
22:07 hdl joined #koha
22:09 drulm I just wondered about the 3.03.00.004 Koha version number. Does this somehow mean "3.2" ?
22:11 wizzyrea 3.03 is the development branch of Koha, or what we sometimes refer to as "HEAD"
22:12 wizzyrea if you want to track the current stable branch
22:12 wizzyrea you'd do
22:12 wizzyrea git checkout -b 3.2.x --track origin/3.2.x
22:12 wizzyrea which should put you on stable 3.2.x
22:12 wizzyrea instead of on the track for 3.4
22:13 francharb left #koha
22:13 wizzyrea make sense?
22:13 drulm yes, works for me
22:13 wizzyrea yay!
22:15 drulm "clear as a Summers day of purest azure"
22:17 hdl good night folks
22:17 thd hdl: just before you go
22:17 hdl ?
22:18 irmaB joined #koha
22:18 hdl hi irmaB
22:18 irmaB Hi hdl ... sorry I am so late
22:18 irmaB Is meeting over?
22:18 hdl yes.
22:19 thd hdl: If I put some questions to BibLibre on the mailing list about how something is working in your Solr/Lucene work will someone from BibLibre take the time to explain briefly?
22:19 irmaB OK shall read the log. Was it constructive?
22:19 drulm There is a meeting tomorrow, no?
22:19 thd irmaB: Discussion is always constructive :)
22:19 irmaB Indeed
22:20 thd drulm: There is a general #koha meeting tomorrow.
22:21 hdl thd: sure... please ask...
22:21 hdl We might need some time to answer though.
22:21 irmaB Sorry but I have to go already... goodnight/goodday all ;-)
22:21 thd drulm: Today's meeting was a special topic meeting on BibLibre Solr/Lucene work.
22:22 thd hdl: I am very patient.  I prefer careful answers to hasty ones.
22:22 irmaB left #koha
22:22 thd hdl: Which is why I have not pressed Knowledge Integration and Index Data excessively for quick answers.
22:24 thd good night hdl
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22:32 drulm thd: I saw that. Yes.
22:46 thd left #koha
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23:57 chris_n @later tell cait I've pushed a very raw and mostly untested update for the various sysprefs.sql files to my own repo
23:57 munin chris_n: The operation succeeded.
23:58 chris_n @later tell cait http://git.koha-community.org/[…]heads/syspref_fix
23:58 munin chris_n: The operation succeeded.
23:58 chris_n @later tell cait if you have a chance to give it a look I would be grateful for the help
23:58 munin chris_n: The operation succeeded.
23:59 chris_n as well as anyone else who is versed in installing koha in any of the various languages other than en
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