IRC log for #koha, 2009-10-30

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:01 chris hi brendan
00:01 brendan greetings chris
00:01 brendan going home in a hour to watch game 2
00:01 brendan got it recording again :)
00:02 brendan first messing with some MARC
00:03 chris :)
00:20 hdl_laptop good night
00:20 chris sleep well
00:24 brendan cya hdl_laptop
01:02 chris[…]ologies,_Sep_2009
01:02 brendan[…]ogies%2C_Sep_2009
01:02 brendan heh -- had the same thought
01:02 chris heh
01:02 chris i should tweet it
01:03 brendan race you :)
01:03 brendan you win
01:03 brendan I gotta head home in a minute
01:04 chris done
01:08 chris is that step 3 of gandhi's famous saying
01:09 richard some outrageous stuff in that pdf
01:09 chris yeah, typical proprietary vendor FUD
01:09 chris thank goodness for wikileaks
01:09 richard yeah
01:09 brendan cya you all in a bit
01:09 brendan let's go baseball
01:10 chris :)
01:10 richard looks like they are really, really frightened of evergreen
01:10 chris it sure does
01:20 brendan left #koha
01:20 chris "States Department of Defense, restrict the use of open source software for fear that it  could pose a terrorist opportunity.
01:21 chris the next thing they will be saying that only paedophiles use open source software
01:26 richard i guess the commie line isn't that useful anymore - especially since castro retired
01:27 chris heh
01:32 * chris_n2 wanders back
01:33 chris_n2 amazing... both of the links above are dead from here
01:33 chris
01:34 chris that work?
01:35 chris_n2 nope :-(
01:35 chris_n2 times out
01:35 chris k hows this
01:36 chris_n2 doesn't DBIx::Class::Schema::Loader pick up relationships?
01:36 chris[…]n-open-source.pdf
01:36 chris i think so
01:36 chris_n2 maybe its catalyst that misses the relationships
01:37 chris_n2 or maybe its my ignorance of things
01:37 chris_n2 got the pdf
01:42 brendan joined #koha
01:46 * chris_n2 did not realize that a library running Koha or EG would need to convert all of their win32 desktops to *nix desktops...
01:46 chris_n2 but that seems to be what this article says
01:46 chris yeah
01:47 chris someone needs to annotate it, point by point
01:47 chris_n2 there's a latin term for stating a point and then citing irrelevant examples to support it
01:49 chris_n2 hmmm.... here goes the dsl
01:53 pianohacker hahahahah
01:53 pianohacker I lived through sirsi's saas platform
01:53 pianohacker it worked through _remote desktop_ and was unavailable so often that our library had to install an offline circ client
01:54 chris yeah, they arent being sued because they offer a good product their customers like
01:54 pianohacker remote desktop! we had to upgrade our internet connection to support it!
01:54 * pianohacker fumes
01:57 pianohacker i also question the assumption that the us miltary's use of sirsi products is a point in either institution's favor
01:57 chris i guarantee you
01:57 chris the military have hte source code for their missile silos
01:57 chris i guarantee thats not some blackbox proprietary crap software
01:58 pianohacker if they have any clue what they're doing (not a guarantee, but i do sincerely hope so)
01:58 chris thd said to me, they may not share it with us, but they have it
01:58 pianohacker yup
01:58 chris also
01:59 chris
01:59 chris For more than 20 years, BRL-CAD has been the primary tri-service solid modeling CAD system used by the U.S. military to model weapons systems for vulnerability and lethality analyses.
01:59 chris_n2 left #koha
02:00 pianohacker yup. non-intuitive ui, but very good at what it does, and open source
02:00 chris yep
02:01 mason lol 'Caveat emptor! '
02:01 mason hows that for FUD... :/
02:05 pianohacker "simply put, we do not use lies and overexaggerations against products that don't compete with us"
02:05 chris they said that?
02:07 pianohacker no, riffing off a paragraph in the conclusion about linux, firefox, etc
02:07 chris ahhh
02:07 chris ahh
02:07 chris i see
02:08 chris im just shaking my head
02:10 pianohacker the fact that sirsidynix published it just makes the claims that much more amazing
02:10 pianohacker though the other proprietary ils companies, some of which know what they're doing, probably don't need to resort to things like this
02:11 chris yeah
02:12 chris if you have a product that isnt shite, and customers who dont hate you
02:12 chris you dont need to do this
02:15 ebegin joined #koha
02:15 ebegin Hey #koha!
02:15 chris hi ebegin
02:15 ebegin long time :)
02:15 chris yep, hows things?
02:16 ebegin Good... but busy, which is good by itself :)
02:16 chris yep :)
02:16 pianohacker hi, ebegin
02:17 chris_n wow major weirdness with my dsl
02:17 chris_n any ip on the isp's subnets are ok, but the Internet is gone
02:17 chris_n must be a fiber cut
02:18 * ebegin trying to find a way to debug Koha.  Since a while, I have a deep recursion on subroutine "utf8::SWASHNEW" as soon as I have a script error in my .pl files
02:18 chris hmm dont thing ive seen that happen before ebegin
02:18 chris chris_n: could be just an edge router gone
02:18 chris_n vpn to the rescue
02:18 ebegin How come I always have strange errors... :)
02:18 pianohacker ebegin: I've seen that happen with some syntax/compilation errors
02:19 pianohacker try running the script in question from a terminal
02:19 chris_n could be since I'm vpn'd to a circuit on the same isp and it still has Inet access
02:19 chris_n ebegin: I've seen that before too
02:20 chris_n mostly with tight-loops
02:20 ebegin pianohacker, yeah, I know that this is my error... good point to run it through the command line...
02:20 chris_n chris: a wrenched article that
02:21 pianohacker ebegin: it seems to be some weirdness with Carp::die, as utf8::SWASHNEW and Carp::die seem to call each other in a neverending chain
02:21 chris_n they sound afraid of open source
02:21 pianohacker not sure why
02:22 chris chris_n: yep, terrified
02:22 pianohacker chris_n: they should be, given their recent move to replace Horizon (bad) with Symphony (reportedly actually worse)
02:22 chris *nod*
02:22 ebegin I remember that we can get the error listed directly in the browser.  Anybody knows how?
02:24 chris_n ebegin: have you consulted 'top' to see if your script is still hung... out of curiosity
02:24 pianohacker ebegin: you can change the DebugLevel syspref to 2, but that seems to break in these situations too
02:25 chris_n vnc viewer via vpn is like working in a room full of jello... :-P
02:25 ebegin chris_n, I have this problem when I have a simple syntax error actually...
02:28 ebegin Well, of course when I run the script from the command line, I get the redirection to the login screen...  :(
02:29 pianohacker ebegin: yup, though it's only certain errors that trigger it
02:32 chris_n2 joined #koha
02:32 chris_n2 and we're back
02:32 chris :)
02:32 chris_n2 it appears to have been a dns outage
02:33 * chris_n2 wipes the jello off ;-)
02:33 ebegin be back soon
02:35 chris_n2 opendns to the rescue
02:38 chris_n2 ok, off to sleep early for a change... g'night
02:39 chris night
03:29 Amit joined #koha
03:29 Amit hi
03:29 Amit chirs
03:29 Amit hi chris
03:29 Amit good morning #koha
03:29 Amit heya brendan
03:34 richard hiya amit
03:40 Amit hi richard
04:18 richard left #koha
04:41 ebegin Hi Amit!
04:50 brendan left #koha
04:53 anasha joined #koha
05:04 * ebegin just discovered the "perl -wc" option... it check your script for syntax errors without running it.
05:11 mahesh joined #koha
05:12 mahesh hello
05:13 mahesh i have small problem with koha3+ldap setup .
05:13 mahesh i put update and replicate to 0 in koha-conf but koha is still updating the tables
06:02 pianohacker mahesh: you might want to ask on the mailing list, most everyone is asleep at the moment
06:02 pianohacker on that note, good night
06:02 pianohacker left #koha
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06:47 Ropuch Morning
06:53 nicomo joined #koha
06:54 magnusenger joined #koha
07:00 brendan joined #koha
07:01 nicomo hello all
07:02 Ropuch Hi nicomo
07:15 ebegin good nighe all!
07:16 magnusenger hiya #koha!
07:18 Ropuch hello magnusenger
07:18 magnusenger hello Ropuch
07:20 magnusenger must get some breakfast...
07:22 chris hi europe
07:23 chris i guess you have all seen the sirsi dynix attack on open source already?
07:29 Ropuch I'm readinhg atm
07:31 chris its remarkable in a lot of ways, mostly that for a trained librarian you think he would know to cite his quotations
07:31 laurence joined #koha
07:35 Ropuch chris: yuo
07:36 Ropuch yes. I mean: if it comes to "let-me-reveal-you-the-truth-behind" bulshit it's rarely supplied with citations
07:36 chris exactly
07:39 chris there are some real doozies in there, including calling equinox a proprietary company, and PINES stupid
07:39 chris they must be panicking
07:40 Ropuch Being considered as possible threat is a compliment
07:40 AmitG joined #koha
07:40 Ropuch We even deserve 12p color brochure!
07:41 AmitG hi ropuch
07:42 Ropuch "Generally there will be significant limitations to the hardware and operating system options. "
07:42 Ropuch hehehe
07:43 Ropuch Oh geez, this paper is like a post on tennagers forum
07:43 Ropuch s/tennagers/teenagers
07:44 chris Ropuch: yeah
07:44 chris the latest spin now is that they always meant it to be public
07:44 chris which flies against what they told a lot of people
07:45 Amit left #koha
07:45 chris i think instead of PINES writing evegreen being a big strategic error, this white paper was the strategic error
07:46 kf joined #koha
07:46 kf good morning #koha
07:47 Ropuch Guten tag, kf
07:47 Ropuch :)
07:47 kf guten Tag, Ropuch!
07:48 Ropuch Aaah, nouns start with capitals, you've got me!
07:48 chris heh
07:49 chris wie gehts?
07:49 kf did not want to correct you, I have great respect for everybody trying to learn German!
07:49 kf chris: gut, und dir? ;)
07:50 Ropuch kf: no no - just look at my english: it's because people didn't want to correct me
07:50 Ropuch So - have no mercy! ;>
07:50 chris auch gut
07:50 chris (can you say it like that kf?)
07:50 kf perfect chris
07:50 chris yay i remembered something
07:51 kf I got the German MARC21 translation today...
07:52 kf chris: will MARC21 labels be included in translation or does it make sense to translate sql files?
07:52 chris i remember when i was in vienna people would say gruss gott (spelling?) instead of guten tag
07:52 chris kf: at this stage translate the sql files
07:53 chris they have been done for ukranian and russian and seem to work well, ricardo is doing portuguese
07:53 kf chris: ok, one more big task for my long todo list :)
07:53 chris :)
07:53 chris i know the feeling
07:54 chris whats the famous austrian cake? sachre torte?
07:54 kf what about new fields and subfields? we added fields (according to marc21 standard) for linking of authorities and bibs
07:54 kf I dont know austria so well... but sachertorte seems possible
07:54 chris hmmm i think translate those too
07:55 chris[…]hp?g2_itemId=3941
07:55 kf they are not in the official framework right now
07:55 chris you were right :)
07:55 chris (thats from when we were installing Koha at the UN)
07:56 kf you make me hungry with photos like this! :)
07:56 chris kf: you might want to email thd about those, he knows more about marc than any person i know
07:56 chris i think he will want them in the official framework toot
07:57 chris too even
07:57 kf ok, more work *sigh* ;)
07:58 chris hehe sorry
07:58 hdl_laptop hi
07:58 thd kf: there is an important problem for use of the Koha MARC 21 frameworks in Germany
07:58 thd kf: the frameworks are out of date.
07:58 chris say MARC and thd comes running :-)
07:59 chris i think kf has been fixing them thd, to bring them up to date more
07:59 chris hi hdl_laptop :)
07:59 kf hi thd
07:59 thd kf: I have a not quite complete and uncommitted update from over a year ago
07:59 thd kf: hhello
08:00 thd kf: have you updated the frameworks for MAB2 unification?
08:00 kf thd: we have hebrew in 880 in our catalog, so we added some fields for that, and fields for linking of bibs, 775? 773? my colleague did that, but perhaps I can work something out, just dont know when
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08:01 thd kf: I have the MAB2 unification uncommitted.
08:01 kf thd: we get marc21 from our union catalog, but this is very new, koha is the first ils in our consortia to work with marc21
08:01 kf thd: not sure if I understand what a MAB2 unification is?
08:01 thd kf: are you in Germany?
08:01 kf thd: yes :)
08:02 thd kf: I assume that you are familiar with MAB2
08:02 kf and I know of mab2 of course, but not sure about the unification
08:02 kf I am not an expert, but I have seen some mab2 records
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08:04 thd Unification is the process which USMARC went through to add CANMARC, UKMARC, and now MAB2 to form MARC 21 adding fields and subfields needed for conversion of records in the previous local semantics.
08:04 kf ah ok
08:05 thd The most significant issue for MAB2 unification is treatment of authority field links to a record ID in $0 for authority fields.
08:05 kf I know they were some additions to marc21 requested from Germany
08:06 thd Koha uses local use $9 for the record linking purpose but only internally within Koha.
08:06 kf thd: yes, but we convert our data and copy it to $9 without the last number (can be x) to make it work with koha right now
08:06 kf its works very well
08:06 thd kf: If you have converted then there is no problem.
08:07 kf its more difficult to make hierarchies between records work
08:07 kf I cant explain that well... the ids are in $w
08:08 kf we added an index to koha and are working on the xslt-stylesheets to make the linking work
08:08 thd kf: you should merely be aware that using web based record import, internal Koha record editor, or internal Koha Z39.50 client will use the Koha MARC frameworks to act as filter for the data.
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08:09 thd kf: any of those activities will loose data for any subfield not properly defined in the Koha MARC frameworks.
08:09 kf so you can lose data when the fields are not defined in the framework?
08:09 chris thd++ #for doing the minutes
08:09 kf hm, I did not experience that so far, but perhaps we were just lucky
08:10 thd kf: If you import with and never alter the records you safely avoid the frameworks filter.
08:10 kf ok, this need some more thought then... my todo list starts making me feel dizzy
08:10 thd kf: you would only notice a problem for the newest fields and subfields which are absent from the frameworks
08:11 thd kf: Most libraries would never notice.
08:11 kf we already added some of them and missed nothing so far... but I should take a closer look at this for sure
08:11 thd kf: German libraries may have a special issue for recent changes.
08:12 thd kf: The reason I did not commit my last incomplete update is that I have tried to keep all the various books, serials, etc. frameworks coordinated which is much work.
08:13 kf yes, but I think an update would be necessary and important
08:13 thd I had not wanted to commit a set to which the update had not been uniformly applied.
08:13 thd I know that it was a mistake.
08:14 thd Fixing it now is even more work because there were a few changes and more updates since I was last working on it.
08:14 thd MARC 21 frameworks turned into an unfunded mandate for me.
08:15 kf hm should koha default framework include all fields and subfields from marc21 standard?
08:16 thd We should think of an easier process to maintain them using only diffs from the default framework.
08:16 kf or is it a selection of fields that are really used
08:16 thd kf: There is a selection only to make the record editor not overloaded with the whole standard.
08:16 kf I can perhaps do some work on default framework, but we dont use other frameworks (cataloging is done in union catalog, so no need for them)
08:17 thd There are a set of hidden values which will populate the record editor if the record already contains those subfields.
08:19 thd If you do all your cataloguing remotely then you do not have much of a problem unless you might upload your records from the local system to the remote one.
08:19 thd s/remotely/remotely on the union catalogue/
08:19 |Lupin| joined #koha
08:20 |Lupin| hello
08:22 kf but we use staged import for updates
08:22 thd kf: I have some programs for capturing frameworks on an installed system.  Making a diff to update translations would be relatively easy.
08:22 kf so we can lose data we might need later (when we try to make all those linkings work)
08:23 chris hi |Lupin|
08:23 thd kf: it had been considered a record simplification feature and not a bug by the original programmer of the frameworks
08:24 kf thd: I think its ok, but I was not aware of it
08:24 |Lupin| hello chris
08:24 |Lupin| gutne morgen kf
08:25 kf thd: its not so bad, as all the data is in our union catalog and we can get them easily to update records in koha
08:25 kf guten morgen Lupin :)
08:25 thd kf: it would be difficult to spot and if you are using MARC 21 records as they had been used before MAB2 unification then there may be no use of the new subfields.
08:27 thd kf: The MAB2 unification issue had been largely for DDB and other libraries sharing the same records with the same use of authority control.
08:27 kf thd: we have all German features in our MARC21 records
08:28 thd kf: Do you have a link for me to your union catalogue where I can see the full MARC records?
08:28 kf thd: sorry, you cant see them there, you would need a cataloging client to see them
08:28 kf its an export format
08:28 kf different form the internal format
08:29 thd do you mean a Z39.50 client?
08:29 kf
08:30 kf z39.50 will be available later, its in testing now
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08:31 kf we can get data for import in different export formats, different MARC21 formats even, there is an export format for worldcat and one which includes MAB2 unification
08:32 |Lupin| I have records with item fields but which are not bound to real items. Their itemnumber is 0. I tried to get ried of them by deleting the records and then calling ModBiblio but this does not seem to work. Any suggestion, please ?
08:33 thd kf: there is no MARC display for the catalogue to which you linked.
08:33 thd or at least I found none.
08:34 kf thd: you are right, perhaps I can send you some records
08:34 Ropuch "However, it should be stated that customization is not without risk. Extensive customization, especially with potentially little or no documentation can make upgrades and changes increasingly difficult."
08:34 kf thd: marc21 view is only available in cataloging client
08:34 |Lupin| thd: can't you use KOha to catch some record s in Marc ?
08:34 kf oh
08:35 kf
08:35 Ropuch Uh - "beware of tea: it can burn your throat"
08:35 kf marc21 view is deactivated (library was confused by it, but you can use download)
08:35 thd kf: send some records which have not passed through Koha to me at koha AT
08:36 chris @quote add < Ropuch> Uh - "beware of tea: it can burn your throat"
08:36 munin chris: The operation succeeded.  Quote #43 added.
08:36 chris hi paul_p
08:36 paul_p hi chris
08:37 paul_p ( you could not stay quiet at the end ;-) )
08:37 thd |Lupin| yes Koha has a Z39.50 client but the records captured with it pass through the frameworks as a filter.
08:37 |Lupin| chris: any idea how I can lceanup this faulty items, pls ?
08:37 |Lupin| chris: I think I added them by mistake when I wrote the scripts to import our stuff in KOha...
08:38 thd |Lupin| Is your system live?
08:38 Ropuch chris: I'm just rereading the SirsixDynix comedy ;>
08:38 |Lupin| thd: not yet
08:38 thd |Lupin| Rewrite your scripts and start again.
08:38 kf thd: ok, added you to my todo list
08:38 |Lupin| thd: I was referring to the download facility offered on OPAC....
08:39 |Lupin| thd: they work now
08:39 chris paul_p: i didnt respond to joshua :)
08:39 |Lupin| thd: the problem is to remove the old stuff from the DB
08:39 paul_p chris: right.
08:39 thd |Lupin| You can purge the DB of records and reimport.
08:40 kf chris: did I miss one of your mails?
08:40 thd |Lupin| The biggest problem is purging Zebra to avoid ghost records.
08:40 |Lupin| thd: I don't want to remove the records completely. I just would liek to remove the faulty item fields they have
08:40 chris kf: i think paul is referring to my emails with ben
08:40 chris |Lupin|: there is no easy way to do that
08:40 thd |Lupin| I have had trouble removing phantom items in the past.
08:41 |Lupin| chris: hmm.. and how about non-easy ways ?
08:41 thd |Lupin| You could alter the database directly, however, starting again might be better if you have not gone live.
08:42 chris |Lupin|: you cant get to the edit item screen in koha? and delete them there?
08:42 |Lupin| thd: ctually... the thing may not affect zebra because the final koha will run on another machine with another zebra db...
08:42 thd |Lupin| Then you are safe from any mysterious Zebra phantoms.
08:43 |Lupin| chris: there are too many !
08:43 chris then i think thd is right, starting again
08:43 |Lupin| chris: but if that would work, well... then there sholc be a way to achieve the result through the perl API, no ?
08:44 chris yes but you will have to right a special script
08:44 chris and build a list of all the items to delete
08:44 |Lupin| chris: that's not a problem <
08:44 chris might be faster to just delete and reimport
08:44 |Lupin| chris: I already wrote many scripts to do similar things
08:45 |Lupin| chris: I'm just asking which function to call, since my script that deleted the fields from the MARC records and then called ModBiblio seemed to fail
08:45 thd |Lupin| It could be a fun exercise but there are other things with which you could have fun.
08:45 |Lupin| chris: no, reimport would not be _that_ easy...
08:45 chris paul_p: translations work fine for me
08:46 paul_p strange... ( but i'm happy to see that the problem was fixed )
08:46 chris i had tested them all before the release
08:47 chris and just redid german now
08:48 |Lupin|
08:48 chris |Lupin|: yeah you dont want to do that
08:48 chris you want to use delitem
08:48 |Lupin| that's the cleanupitems script I used...
08:48 |Lupin| can anyone see something faulty with that ?
08:48 chris deleting fields from the marc is the wrong way to do it
08:49 |Lupin| chris: but the itemnumbers are 0 in all the MARC fields.. and I fear the items have already been deleted...
08:49 |Lupin| (frm the items table)
08:50 thd |Lupin| you may have phantoms
08:51 |Lupin| thd: yeah
08:51 thd |Lupin| exorcism can be painful
08:53 Colin joined #koha
08:54 chris hi Colin
08:58 Colin Hi Chris
09:00 Colin Someone just pointed out something Abram hints at. Theres probably more sirsidynix experience in the koha and evergreen communites than in SD
09:00 chris yes, someone should say "maybe the better questions is why have all these people left SD"
09:24 paul_p what annoys me the most with Sirsi pdf is that they just speak of LL, once again (and, of course, they don't say you can choose your vendor, that would be hard to explain it's a problem...)
09:26 chris i dont think there is anything that doesnt annoy me about that pdf
09:27 Ropuch chris++
09:27 Ropuch Every paragraph makes "wtf?!"
09:28 CGI383 joined #koha
09:28 Ropuch But, looking from different view, thsi pdf is really treasure chest with funny statements ;>
09:28 gmcharlt paul_p: well, they do mention Equinox as the other 'proprietary' vendor
09:29 paul_p gmcharlt: yep. Sorry. I meaned " speak only of LL for Koha"
09:29 chris is there anything factually correct in there? only the stuff lifted from wikipedia without citation i think
09:29 gmcharlt and of course, only ESI for EG is just as wrong - there are other vendors playing in that space
09:30 paul_p a fun question to ask : "you say why does OSS companies hire so many SD alumni ? But why are they SD alumni?" :D
09:31 gmcharlt *cough*two-year noncompetes*cough*
09:32 CGI383 left #koha
09:33 chris yep, i find it funny in its absurdity Ropuch
09:35 Ropuch chris: "Nevertheless, it should be noted that it is rare for completely open source projects to be successful." ;>
09:36 chris yeah, that apache malarky is never gonna catch on
09:36 Ropuch I just don't know what to do: cry or laugh
09:37 Ropuch (writing this on OS gnome-terminal ;-)
09:38 gmcharlt anybody know offhand if SirsiDynix ILSs use Apache as their web server?
09:38 Colin gmcharlt:yes
09:39 chris pianohacker summed it up well
09:40 chris < pianohacker> "simply put, we do not use lies and overexaggerations against products that don't compete with us"
09:41 chris wrt the we dont hate all open source
09:41 chris last paragraph
09:42 chris i also liked colin's tweet
09:42 chris
09:49 nahuel left #koha
09:51 |Lupin| someone knows the syntax to disable foreign key checks in mysql, pls ?
09:53 hdl_laptop SET FOREIGN_KEY_CHECKS=0
09:53 Ropuch I want to buy a good & up-to-date library science encyclopedia/dictionary, can you recommend me something?
09:53 hdl_laptop
09:54 Ropuch I know odlis ;>
09:54 |Lupin| thanks hdl_laptop !
09:54 Ropuch My boss said I should have some boks for myself, so i bought "MODx Web Development" ;>
09:57 |Lupin| Ropuch: what's MODx ?
10:01 Ropuch It's a CMS
10:01 Ropuch My latest love
10:01 |Lupin| Ropuch: never heard about it...
10:04 Ropuch There's so many CMS around you can't know just everyone ;>
10:04 Ropuch[…]s.php?scriptid=48
10:04 Ropuch They have a demo here
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10:11 |Lupin| Ropuch: thanks
10:12 |Lupin| Ropuch: actually I saw it uses ajax, and since I'm a lynx ser I assume it won't be very useful to me...
10:12 Ropuch Guess not ;>
10:15 Ropuch Why not elinks?
10:25 chris night all
10:28 Ropuch Night chris
10:28 hdl_laptop night chris
10:28 gmcharlt g'night chris
10:29 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: early for you.
10:39 |Lupin| goodnight chris
11:18 ebegin left #koha
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11:32 chris_n g'morning #koha
11:37 paul_p hi chris nigh_n (with the nick, no risk to be mistaken by a too complex name :D )
11:38 anasha left #koha
11:42 chris_n hehe
11:42 chris_n it is actually Neuenschwander
11:43 chris_n there are about 12 different spellings
11:43 chris_n and a zillion pronunciations ;-)
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11:52 jdavidb Good morning, #koha!
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12:12 jwagner Good morning all
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12:45 |Lupin| hi jane
12:47 kf hi jane and jdavidb
12:48 jdavidb Hi, kf! :)
12:51 paul_p good morning jdavidb, jwagner & al
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12:57 jwagner Good morning everyone
12:58 schuster joined #koha
12:59 schuster Morning from Texas!
12:59 jwagner paul_p or other French speakers, can I get some syspref translations?
12:59 schuster Are they around? I have a question about groups again as well...
13:00 schuster My question is do groups only work in Staff searching.  I don't seem to see them in the OPAC as an option like I do in staff.
13:00 jdavidb Hiya, schuster. :)
13:00 schuster Hey Davie B...
13:03 hdl_laptop joined #koha
13:05 jwagner hdl_laptop, are you available for some syspref translations?
13:05 hdl_laptop yes
13:05 jwagner Rather lengthy, I'll ping offline.  Thanks.
13:08 jwagner Anyone wondering what I'm up to :-) see Bug 3738
13:08 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3738 enhancement, P5, ---,, ASSIGNED, Automate login to web-based self-check system
13:12 schuster hdl_laptop - dealing with libraries and groups - do you have that displaying only in staff or in the pac as well?
13:13 owen Is that possible schuster? There's a setting for it?
13:16 schuster I was able to make groups work in the staff client - libraries and groups there is a "search domain" that seems to work, but it only displays the search group in the staff client
13:17 schuster In the advanced search below libraries - groups shows up after I created a library group.(search 2 libraries at once)
13:18 schuster owen does that answer your question?
13:19 |Lupin| is the pm_to_blib file in Koha sources important ?
13:19 owen Looks like it might be a flaw in the opac template... I see a reference to 'searchdomainloop' in, but nothing in the opac template
13:21 schuster Wondered about that...  Easy to fix?  If I only had a fraction of owen's knowledge of web stuff.
13:22 owen I'm taking a look now
13:23 schuster Also someone noted that in a newer version of Koha than I have there are options for "Term Loan Policy" - is that in community koha for 3.2?
13:24 kf schuster: its LEK
13:26 owen I wonder if LibLime is using its own version numbering system in LEK. That's going to get tricky for the rest of us to keep track of.
13:29 schuster phewie
13:32 magnusenger hm, a library wants to set the date due for *all* their current loans to a specific date. Is that as easy as "UPDATE issues SET date_due = '2009-12-31';", or am i missing something?
13:33 jdavidb Hm...should be that easy, magnusenger.  I'd be asking questions like "All? Even the already-overdue ones?"
13:33 magnusenger yep, they are very lenient with overdues and have very few holds...
13:35 jdavidb If they're running, you'll probably want to dink with already-existing fines on those items, too, which complicates things some.
13:36 owen schuster: In your tests of branch groups, do you find the results to be accurate?
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13:36 schuster I'd have to explore more, but so far it seems to be.
13:37 owen schuster: I tried a search on my test system... Searching for "pokemon" returned 14 results. Searching for "pokemon" limited to a branch group returned 721 results!
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13:38 owen Do branch groups require some kind of additional configuration I don't know about?
13:38 magnusenger jdavidb: they are not using fines at all... I'll back up the db and give it a try. Thanks!
13:39 jdavidb Good luck, magnusenger.  If they're not using fines, I can't think of anything else that'd be negatively affected.
13:41 |Lupin| question for koha developers pls
13:41 |Lupin| I'm adding a subdirectory in Koha sources
13:41 |Lupin| to store a few perl modules we need
13:42 |Lupin| what should be done so that this directory gets installed correctly ?
13:42 |Lupin| is there something to do at all ?
13:42 gmcharlt Perl modules that you're writing?
13:42 gmcharlt or from CPAN?
13:42 |Lupin| gmcharlt: perl modules I'm writing
13:42 gmcharlt ok, then put them in the C4:: namespaces
13:42 gmcharlt and create your subdirectory under C4
13:43 |Lupin| ahah
13:43 |Lupin| gmcharlt: btw: on the production system, what's best according to you ? is it to make install, or to run koha directly from sources ?
13:44 gmcharlt well, both
13:44 gmcharlt you can't quite run everything from sources
13:44 gmcharlt so you need to do an install using dev mode to do it
13:44 |Lupin| gmcharlt: right
13:45 |Lupin| gmcharlt: actually that's what I did on the dev system
13:45 |Lupin| gmcharlt: and there I could keep the dir containing our own modules out of C4...
13:45 gmcharlt for production systems, it depends on how you want to manage change
13:45 gmcharlt if you track HEAD, dev mode is actually pretty useful for production systems
13:46 |Lupin| gmcharlt: would you mind elaborating a bit on your last point, pls ?
13:46 gmcharlt if you are a firm believer in *only* running from a released packages, then you wouldn't do that
13:46 |Lupin| gmcharlt: wella ctually it's nieither of this two... We will track our own HEAD, let's say
13:47 gmcharlt if you're doing that, then you almost certainly want to run in dev mode
13:47 gmcharlt as that automatically ensures that any locla customizations you're doing stay under version control
13:47 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yeah I also have the intuition it will simplify things...
13:47 |Lupin| gmcharlt: right
13:48 schuster owen - how many of the book do you have total? and what "libraries" did you add to the groups?
13:48 |Lupin| gmcharlt: the development model is that we will have one developemnt system where everythning is programmed, tested, etc. and then a production, system. The transfers between dev system and prod system will be through tigit..
13:48 gmcharlt that's the way to do it
13:49 |Lupin| gmcharlt: btw: I have done a make install on the prod machine from a stable version of Koha, just to make sure everything works correctly. Is there a clean way to uninsall this ?
13:49 owen schuster: 13,835 biblios in my test system, 2 libraries added to the group
13:49 gmcharlt there's an uninstall script from a few months ago around
13:50 gmcharlt but you can get all of the directories you need to delete from the instasllation log
13:50 |Lupin| gmcharlt: oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see it. I just tried make uninstall and this didn't work...
13:50 |Lupin| gmcharlt: ok, hope I kept this one...
13:51 schuster owen - so how many pokemon do you have in branch #2?
13:52 owen schuster: I think it's another problem with the template, hang on
13:52 |Lupin| gmcharlt: just out of curiosity: where is the uninstall script ?
13:52 schuster 14 to 721 may not be bad but sounds like branch 2 has a lot of graphic novels.
13:53 schuster you doing your searches in pac or staff?
13:53 owen Wait, no, not a template problem unless the problem was already there--I'm testing in the staff client
13:56 owen schuster: The result for branch 1 is 1 title, 4 for branch 2. So the results for my group should be 4
13:56 owen (1 in common)
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14:02 schuster Yep I am seeing a problem with the groups search - it is ignoring the word but combinging the 2 locations only.
14:02 |Lupin| Please specify Zebra database user [kohauser]
14:02 |Lupin| I'm not quite sure what I should answer here...
14:02 schuster so my search for south dakota - location a is 15, location b is 20 - but group location brings me everything between location a and b regardless of the search term kw
14:03 |Lupin| any hint, pls ?
14:03 schuster phewie - again...  I was batting 8 yesterday today I'm striking out!
14:05 Colin Lupin:Just take the defaults for zebra db user its just the koha/zebra traffic
14:07 |Lupin| Colin: okay, thanks
14:14 slef why is not answering me?  does it answer anyone else?
14:15 jdavidb It's answering me, slef.
14:15 owen Working for me too
14:17 slef hrm :-/
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14:19 slef now it answers me again
14:19 jwagner When you delete an item from a title, is it supposed to go into the deleteditems table?  I've been testing creating an item, deleting it (with zebra between each step), but nothing is showing up in deleteditems.
14:21 hdl_laptop It should go there.
14:26 jwagner Hrmmmm.  It's not showing up, and I'm not seeing the code (yet) that would actually put it there.  In, under $op eq "delitem" there's a check for if the item is on loan or on hold, but I don't see where id does anything with it if it's not.
14:26 schuster jwagner - mine does that but I don't know what version you are "testing" on.
14:27 jwagner I'm finding some code in for handling deleteds, still looking at it. I'm testing on with a lot of custom work on top.  I'll try on another system.
14:32 hdl_laptop jwagner: it is on master
14:33 Colin jwagnar: _koha_delete_item is where its done
14:35 jwagner On one system, with master active (no custom stuff), it works fine.  On another, with master active, it doesn't.  Something wrong with the table itself, maybe?
14:42 hdl_laptop jwagner: could be
14:43 jdavidb _koha_delete_items is built so that the fields can be in any arbitrary order, but the same fields must exist in both tables, or the INSERT will fail.  We've tinkered, and have some added fields in items.
14:43 kf I think both tables need same columns
14:43 jwagner That's the problem :-(
14:44 kf perhaps it will work, once you added them to the other table too
14:44 kf when adding columns to borrowers that seemed to be all that was needed
14:46 schuster I would love a field in deleteditems for when it was added to deleted...  That is a problem I am having now
14:46 kf I would love a coloum for accession numbers... :)
14:46 schuster When you "delete" the item it doesn't update the last seen automatically it just copies it over.
14:46 jwagner schuster, there's a timestamp field in deleted items that gets set when it's deleted
14:46 schuster accession numbers? wouldn't that be like the barcode?
14:46 kf no, not here
14:47 kf but it should be unique for each book, so its a pk as a barcode is
14:47 schuster jwagner!  Really!  I don't see that in the show columns from deleteditems I'll have to look again.
14:47 kf libraries need to track what they buy with acession numbers and track what the delete too
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14:48 jwagner schuster, e.g. timestamp -- 2009-10-30 10:27:53
14:48 schuster Please don't tell me you are still using a shelf list....  why can't you track adds through koha and deletes through koha using barcodes ?  All of the data is there, the barcode maybe changed?
14:49 schuster jwagner - you are my hero today!  whooo who!
14:49 schuster finally a base run!  I'm using baseball analogies today.
14:49 jwagner *blush* but was the previous question for me or kf?
14:50 schuster jwagner - for kf - still trying to figure out why you need accession numbers with automation.
14:50 kf schuster: its not my choice and Im not working in a library ;)
14:50 jwagner I'm working on a report to count items deleted in the previous month, so I'll be using the timestamp field.  For kf, the other item fields all still seem to be there, so if you have it in the item data now, it should still be reachable.
14:50 wizzyrea hrm
14:50 kf jwagner: which question?
14:51 wizzyrea can someone tell me how the tablesorter in is sorting the Patron column? It looks totally nonsensical to me
14:51 kf schuster: I know its difficult to explain, but its a historical thing too, inventory/accesscion numbers where there before barcodes
14:51 kf schuster: and I think there is a law which makes it necessary - I dont say you cant use an automation system for the tasks needed
14:52 hdl_laptop wizzyrea: which version ? 3.0.4?
14:52 schuster wizzyrea - looks like location only but not sorting by call after that.
14:52 wizzyrea
14:52 wizzyrea if you click the sorter on patron,
14:52 wizzyrea It's not in a pattern I can discern
14:53 schuster when did you get to upgrade to - i'm still .32
14:53 wizzyrea we had some enhancements
14:53 wizzyrea done
14:53 wizzyrea in... june?
14:53 schuster no comment
14:53 wizzyrea that probably bumped the db
14:53 wizzyrea i know.
14:54 kf hmpf. dbavousett @wizzyrea has a similar green look.  Fun with CSS!
14:54 schuster title and patron don't sort right here either.
14:55 jdavidb kf:  :P
14:55 kf there is no green for me :(
14:55 kf Im forced to look at the German version
14:55 wizzyrea i'm looking at the code, and looking at the tablesorter docs, but I'm clearly not seeing what's wrong
14:55 jdavidb Oh?  Didn't know they had that set up, even.
14:55 wizzyrea well, green happens to be one of my 2 favorite colors
14:55 owen wizzyrea: I see what you mean. I'll take a look
14:55 |Lupin| wizzyrea: 'm sorry, I didn't follow the conversation very well. Do you now know how the borrower column is sorted ?
14:56 kf its bad, happens all the time. and I cant change to english :(
14:56 wizzyrea |Lupin| no sir, I do not
14:57 owen wizzyrea: It could be a problem with markup in the <td>, I've seen that before.
14:57 wizzyrea owen++ ty
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14:57 |Lupin| wizzyrea: ok, I'm continuing to review the code then
14:57 wizzyrea :D thanks
14:58 kf jdavidb: is the header background green in english? it just looks not right for me, there is not enough space for the logo in my version and its the normal blue
14:59 jdavidb yes, kf.  Looks very good in English.  I wonder how/why it's figuring out to shove you into the German version..
14:59 kf ip perhaps
14:59 kf ?
14:59 |Lupin| wizzyrea: do you have independent branches, or not ?
15:00 kf but I dont like it. I wanted to make screenshots from a really nice opac for my presentation and it got really ugly
15:01 kf is there a url parameter perhaps to make it switch to english?
15:02 jdavidb hm...
15:04 jwagner FYI on my deleteditems problem, jdavidb found & added the missing fields & it works OK now :-)
15:05 jdavidb see, they don't even have other languages selected.  I wonder why it's doing that in the first place.
15:05 owen wizzyrea: It looks like whitespace in the <td> is causing the problem.
15:05 wizzyrea AH!
15:05 * wizzyrea goes to look
15:05 owen Editing a locally-saved version to remove the whitespace made the sorting work correctly for me.
15:06 kf jdavidb: sorry, its just driving me crazy every time I find a catalog doing that to me :)
15:06 kf jdavidb: and i dont understand it really, I think they must have changed their templates? using just css and sysprefs should work for any language
15:07 jdavidb Should, i would think.  We just got this customer, already running.  I suspect they have some template customizations.
15:08 owen Remember: CSS is in the /lang/ folder, so it sounds like they have a custom stylesheet in /en/ but not in any others
15:08 kf owen: ah!
15:08 jdavidb owen++
15:08 kf owen++
15:08 kf but its sad
15:09 owen kf: I'm surprised they even have alternate language templates available!
15:09 owen The US is so very English-centric.
15:09 kf perhaps they are not active but just generated?
15:11 slef nah, the US hates English.  Look at how its residents torture it.
15:11 kf its just sad because im sure it looks nice, but I cant see it :( and I cant send the link to others to show them how nice koha opac can look.
15:11 wizzyrea slef: burn!
15:11 owen :D
15:11 kf :D
15:11 slef wizzyrea: you're a day early.
15:11 * jdavidb might be able to fix that for you, kf.
15:12 wizzyrea *sob*
15:12 owen Does Koha respond to the user's browser's language setting?
15:12 kf it seems so
15:12 kf hm pehaps I can deactivate this somewhere
15:13 jdavidb try now?
15:13 kf YAY!
15:13 kf jdavidb++
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15:14 |Lupin| is it possible to download .po files from pootle, or is the site justfor editing translations ?
15:14 wizzyrea jdavidb++
15:14 wizzyrea international_koha_users_keeping_us_on_track++
15:14 owen Now there's a mouthful
15:14 kf now I can show this catalog to other German users :)
15:15 * kf loves green
15:15 owen If Koha is automatically picking the translation based on the browser's language setting, I wonder if we should detect this and display the language chooser for those users even if it hasn't been enabled
15:16 kf owen: I would really like that.
15:17 kf jdavidb: have you deleted templates to achieve this? or just deactivated in sysprefs?
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15:18 jdavidb renamed a template directory.  Since they don't intend to be using any internationalizations anyway, it doesn't make sense to have the tmpls generated.
15:18 jdavidb I'll talk to the customer site, and see what their real intentions are--either we need to copy that CSS over into tmpl directories, or dump 'em.
15:22 kf jdavidb: big thx :) just dont break it again - I just added it to my bookmarks with tags: koha_opac, nice, green, jdavid++ ;)
15:23 jdavidb okay.  :)  I'll either get it working correctly in German, or remove the possibilities, after i talk with the site.
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16:08 kf ok, time to leave - have a nice weekend everybody :)
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16:18 owen is now known as owen-away
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16:41 |Lupin| hmm
16:41 |Lupin| I'm encountering the classical problem:
16:42 |Lupin| opac searches do not work...
16:42 |Lupin| I never know where it can come from / what to check...
16:42 |Lupin| can someone help ?
16:43 hdl_laptop hidelostitems
16:43 hdl_laptop QueryWeightFields
16:43 wizzyrea indexing?
16:43 |Lupin| hmm
16:44 |Lupin| I re-indexed and the rebuild_zebra -r -b didn't print any serious problem
16:44 hdl_laptop QueryStemming ?
16:44 |Lupin| regarding the settings: the db on the production system (where the problmem occurs) is a dump of the db on the dev system, where the problem does not occur
16:45 hdl_laptop All those sys pref should be checked.
16:45 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: I tend to suspect a problem in Koha-Zebra commnications...
16:45 hdl_laptop you could also look at zebra logs.
16:46 |Lupin| right
16:47 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: in the message saying that there is no result for a title search for blip, it says ti,wrdl: blip
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16:51 |Lupin| just looking for the logs...
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16:53 hdl_laptop I meant zebra outputs not the interface.
16:54 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: yeah I understood
16:54 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: just checking the parameters in
16:54 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: should DBNAME be the koha database ?
16:55 hdl_laptop in zebra ? no
16:55 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: in the script... there is a variable called DBNAME... I'm asking what it should contain...
16:57 hdl_laptop koha database.
16:57 hdl_laptop But I think it is unused.
16:58 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: ok
16:58 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: and USER and GOUP ? in a dev install, should they be set to the user and group of the user who did the dev install ?
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17:11 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: ok, now it works, thanks. there were old instances of the koha-zebra daemon which prevented the new (right) one from being ran.
17:16 wizzyrea gmcharlt: I just did that thing I always do with my patches, so ignore the first one
17:16 wizzyrea >.<
17:16 gmcharlt ok, Ms. Root ;)
17:16 wizzyrea har de har har
17:17 wizzyrea :)
17:18 |Lupin| :)
17:18 |Lupin| I think we all do that
17:18 |Lupin| the worst is to stop after the first (wrong) patch :)
17:18 |Lupin| that's what I do
17:18 wizzyrea hehe
17:23 wizzyrea lulz, I just increased the brightness on my monitor, it's been at minimum for weeks b/c I'm too lazy to go change it, I kept accidentally hitting the f12 button to decrease brightness, but there's no button on my keyboard to increase brightness
17:23 wizzyrea so I just set it
17:23 wizzyrea and now I'm wondering if this is why I've been getting headaches
17:23 wizzyrea lol
17:23 wizzyrea (because my monitor was too dim)
17:24 gmcharlt back in the days of CRT, I used to go around bumping up the refresh frequency to the max
17:24 * gmcharlt never got why people didn't go simply insane starting at a montor refreshing at only 60 Hz
17:24 wizzyrea oh I KNOW. Maybe we're just more sensitive
17:27 jdavidb wizzyrea: I was only running at about a 40hz refresh rate yesterday.  Too many days on the road....  probably gave some folks headaches.  :P  I *know* I wasn't making much sense.
17:28 wizzyrea lol... that (plus my monitor) explains my vague headache yesterday
17:28 wizzyrea and you made plenty of sense
17:28 Colin left #koha
17:29 jdavidb My brain was *soooo* tired.  I only-vaguely recall the drive to KC airport, and I have murky memories of the folks on the plane.  Slept a good hour or so on the flight.
17:46 * |Lupin| wonders who sighted persons do to use computers... it is already such a big source of headaches without having to look at a screen ! How tiring it must be when one has to look at one, plus thinking, etc.
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17:51 jdavidb |Lupin|:  I wasn't aware that you were not sighted.
17:53 |Lupin| jdavidb: oh ? ok.
17:54 |Lupin| gmcharlt: around ?
17:54 gmcharlt |Lupin|: yes
17:56 |Lupin| gmcharlt: C4/ I'd like to add a || '';
17:56 jwagner wizzyrea, still around?
17:56 wizzyrea yesm
17:56 |Lupin| gmcharlt: beause without htat my logs are full of warningts saying $issn is used undefined... is that ok ?
17:57 gmcharlt |Lupin|: $issn       = $record->subfield('011','a'); ?
17:57 gmcharlt if so, should be OK - matches what is done for MARC21 a few lines further down
17:57 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yes exactly
17:57 |Lupin| gmcharlt: I'm preparing the patch then
17:58 jwagner wizzyrea (and anyone else interested), to follow up on our problem with wanting to place holds on on-order items, but the site doesn't allow on-shelf holds, we tried several permutations, but the only thing that really works is checking all the dummy items out to a dummy user.  I set up a separate branch called ORDER (description ON ORDER) and tied the dummy user to it, then logged in as the dummy user and checked the item out to the dummy user.  Then th
17:59 gmcharlt jwagner: too long - split it up
17:59 jwagner Sorry -- it shows OK in mine so I wasn't aware.
17:59 jwagner To split:
17:59 jwagner wizzyrea (and anyone else interested), to follow up on our problem with wanting to place holds on on-order items, but the site doesn't allow on-shelf holds, we tried several permutations, but the only thing that really works is checking all the dummy items out to a dummy user.
17:59 |Lupin| jwagner: shows up correctly here, too
17:59 jwagner I set up a separate branch called ORDER (description ON ORDER) and tied the dummy user to it, then logged in as the dummy user and checked the item out to the dummy user.  Then the OPAC display shows ON ORDER for the location column.
17:59 jwagner If anyone has any other solution, I'd love to hear it.
18:02 chris morning
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18:05 jdavidb Hi, chris.
18:12 |Lupin| hello chris
18:15 |Lupin| and goodbye all !
18:15 |Lupin| left #koha
18:16 wizzyrea jwagner, hrm. that seems awfully convoluted :(
18:16 wizzyrea wish it were easier
18:16 wizzyrea i'm sure you do too
18:16 wizzyrea mornin chris
18:17 wizzyrea this would be a change (don't hit me gmcharlt)
18:18 wizzyrea it would be neat if you could specify an itemtype to allow on shelf holds
18:18 wizzyrea that would pretty much solve the whole problem
18:18 wizzyrea we have "holds from this library only" and "holds from any library" why not "on shelf items"
18:19 wizzyrea maybe itypes isn't the place to do it
18:19 wizzyrea idk
18:19 wizzyrea or even "on order items"
18:19 wizzyrea if you wanted to be very specific
18:20 wizzyrea ...silence is unnerving.
18:20 jwagner wizzyrea, I was thinking about two different possible long-term fixes.  One is something like what you're saying -- in item type setup have a setting that says this itype can have an onshelf hold even if nothing else can.
18:20 wizzyrea yea, that's the first thing that came to my mind
18:21 wizzyrea what's the other?
18:21 jwagner The other possibility would be for sites that don't want to have to create dummy items -- whether or not they allow onshelf holds.  We were talking about this here a while back.  That would be to have something in the title record that says this title can have a hold even if there are no items.
18:21 wizzyrea hmm
18:21 jwagner I was thinking about looking at the 942 subfields, to see if any are available, and if one could be used for this purpose.
18:21 jwagner That way things like online resources wouldn't allow holds, but on-order stuff could.
18:21 wizzyrea true
18:22 wizzyrea well either solution allows that
18:22 wizzyrea er,
18:22 wizzyrea nm
18:22 jwagner Yes, but having it in the item record saves extra work with creating the dummy item.
18:22 wizzyrea conceptual fail
18:22 jwagner sorry, I mean having it in the title record saves the extra work.
18:23 wizzyrea true... but at least in the case of on order physical items you're going to have to add that item anyway
18:23 wizzyrea at some point
18:23 wizzyrea is it easier to edit existing or create new?
18:23 wizzyrea I guess is the question
18:23 wizzyrea it's always going to be two steps
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18:24 jwagner Yes, eventually.  I'm thinking of a workflow like this -- acquisitions adds a brief record with no items.  Quick & simple.  Then someone does the actual cataloging with item records -- maybe 50 copies for Harry Potter.  In OCLC or somewhere else, create all the 952s appropriately. Then import that record & overlay the brief one.
18:24 wizzyrea well... maybe not
18:25 wizzyrea (I was unaware you could overlay... interesting)
18:26 jwagner If you have proper match points, you should be able to, right?  OCLC # or ISBN or whatever?
18:26 jwagner That's the whole point of the matching rules.
18:26 wizzyrea (but i'm not a proper cataloger, I don't do it every day)
18:26 wizzyrea (I'm sure you're right)
18:27 wizzyrea in your case, yes, I think you're right, for your workflow, that would work well
18:27 wizzyrea in our case
18:27 wizzyrea often we have a single person who 1. orders, 2. receives 3. catalogs the item
18:28 wizzyrea no passing between departments (and we don't use acq)
18:28 wizzyrea so... I think you should go with your best judgement
18:28 jwagner The particular site I'm working with is multi-library, but the central branch does all the ordering.  But they do their cataloging in OCLC & then just import.
18:28 jwagner At least we have a workaround for them right now, and have time to think about proper solutions.  Thanks much for your help!
18:28 wizzyrea ah, yea, we do z-target searches for our records, and catalog in koha
18:29 wizzyrea hey np, i'm always willing to argue. :)
18:29 wizzyrea er, discuss
18:29 jwagner Now, if someone wants to sponsor the long-term development..... :-)
18:30 wizzyrea hehe, maybe they will ;)
18:30 wizzyrea oh emm gee this is so annoying somebody fix it ASAP we have money we'll pay!!!!!!!
18:30 wizzyrea er,
18:30 jwagner Talk To Me :-)
18:30 wizzyrea an example of an enthusiastic koha user
18:31 wizzyrea hey, we can't PAY our vendor to do stuff for us
18:31 wizzyrea seriously
18:31 wizzyrea er, we have paid and they still don't do stuff for us,
18:31 wizzyrea so
18:31 wizzyrea ...
18:31 wizzyrea not much to lose there.
18:32 jwagner Well, if someone else pays us to do it, you'll get it eventually....
18:32 wizzyrea <3
18:32 wizzyrea really you ought to just check a box and say, item is on order. allow holds.
18:32 thd gmcharlt: are you here?
18:34 wizzyrea OH
18:34 wizzyrea jwagner
18:34 owen-away is now known as owen
18:35 wizzyrea what if, when you were adding the title, you did just that.. checked a box and it *created the dummy item for you*
18:35 wizzyrea with all of the right settings
18:36 cait_laptop thd: sorry, had no time to look for some nice marc21 records to send to you, but will do tomorrow - is .mrk ok? are you interested in something special?
18:36 wizzyrea cait: thanks again for the help yesterday, my librarians are squee happy now
18:36 jwagner That would be nice too.  But part of our problem is getting the OPAC to say that it's on order.  That's why I ended up using the separate library, because that displays as the location.  Anything like an item status would have to be cleared manually by the cataloger, but the library clears with a checkin.
18:36 thd cait_laptop: nothing special
18:36 cait_laptop wizzyrea: you are welcome! it made me happy that I was able to help
18:36 wizzyrea right, but if the itype is ON ORDER
18:36 wizzyrea that would display in the opac
18:37 jwagner Yes, a possibility.
18:37 wizzyrea if  you overlay anyway...
18:37 wizzyrea it would go away when they recatalog, right?
18:37 thd cait_laptop: standard MARC communications format which often appears in .mrc files is fine.
18:37 jwagner They'd have to edit the item record -- overlay just affects the title record and adds new items, so far as I know.
18:38 jwagner Trying to think of a workflow with as few steps as possible.....
18:38 cait_laptop jwagner: what about a temporary location like PROC that can be reset by check in?
18:38 wizzyrea so doesn't remove existing
18:38 cait_laptop jwagner: have not tried temp locations yet, but nicoles doc is on my desk at work :)
18:38 jwagner cait_laptop, I tried working with the In Processing (PROC) but wasn't wholly satisfied with the OPAC display.  It didn't jump out and bite you, so to speak :-)
18:39 cait_laptop I think its the way our current system works too
18:39 jwagner We wanted something to make it REALLY OBVIOUS to the patrons, so they'd understand where the item was.
18:39 cait_laptop with a temporary status
18:39 wizzyrea so, acq orders the item, adds the brief record, checks the box "On Order". Koha creates the dummy item with ON ORDER itype. Item is received, goes to cataloging who then does the OCLC magic and overlays 50 copies... the dummy is still existant?
18:40 jwagner Yes, so far as I know.  Someone would then have to delete the dummy.
18:40 cait_laptop items cant be overlayed as far as i know
18:40 wizzyrea hrm
18:41 cait_laptop ah ok, sorr
18:41 jwagner For OPAC display, if we went the title-no-items route, we'd have to have some kind of a check for the "allow holds" setting and do a screen display saying it was on order.
18:41 cait_laptop y
18:42 gmcharlt hi thd
18:42 wizzyrea yeah... this is an interesting problem
18:42 thd hello gmcharlt
18:42 jwagner Something to turn over in the back of the head for a while.  It's amazing how many problems get solved there.  Or about 2:00 AM when I wake up with Perl code running through my head.....
18:43 wizzyrea hee
18:43 thd gmcharlt: who does the Equinox FUD responses now that Karen Schneider has left?
18:43 jwagner Hey, there are things I'd RATHER be dreaming about!
18:43 wizzyrea kittens, rainbows, hot chocolate, surfing
18:43 wizzyrea (I have lots of dreams about surfing, for whatever reason)
18:43 gmcharlt thd: depends - are you refering to the SirsiDynix white paper
18:43 thd gmcharlt: yes
18:44 thd gmcharlt: It is significantly aimed at Evergreen while casting general aspersions.
18:45 gmcharlt thd: basically, ESI has no comment for now - initial community response is doing a good job of dealing with it
18:45 cait_laptop jwagner: my dreams about perl are strange, like being in a labyrinth and finding no way out
18:45 joetho "Someone would then have to delete the dummy."
18:45 joetho archive that.
18:46 joetho or quotify or whatever you call it.
18:46 thd gmcharlt: OK, so no one is yet planning any detailed response?
18:46 cait_laptop perhaps will get better when I finally finish reading this perl book )
18:46 gmcharlt thd: we're thinking about it
18:47 thd gmcharlt: I would like to offer my assistance in any detailed refutation if anyone is interested.
18:47 jwagner cait_laptop, "You are in a twisty maze of passages, all alike."  Isn't that a quote from some game?
18:47 brendan left #koha
18:47 thd gmcharlt: There are some easy responses to some parts which could go overlooked.
18:48 thd gmcharlt: Like all effective FUD, there is also some truth in the report which is why responding may be helpful.
18:50 chris the only truths contained are truths about software development, not constrained to FLOSS
18:51 wizzyrea thd: there is a google doc available for general refutation comment
18:51 chris at least the only ones i could find
18:51 wizzyrea if you would like access
18:51 chris also there is
18:51 chris[…]ms_on_Open_Source
18:51 chris and an etherpad doc too
18:53 chris
18:53 chris i have received 3 invites to the googledocs one, but when i click on them it says i dont have access
18:53 chris whats that about then
18:54 chris ah ha, the 4th one worked
18:54 owen I've experienced that problem before with other docs, when someone invited me using a none-gmail address of mine
18:54 chris yeah
18:54 wizzyrea dear lord, it's almost 2
18:54 thd chris: there are some comments in the report which are generally true about free software or specifically true for the case given but still very misleading.
18:54 wizzyrea no wonder I"m hungry
18:55 jwagner Gotta run, happy weekend everyone!
18:55 thd happy weekend jwagner
18:55 chris_n etherpad says "Sorry, only 16 people are allowed to edit a single pad at the same time in the free version of EtherPad."
18:56 cait_laptop happy weekend jwagner
18:56 chris ahh
18:56 jwagner left #koha
18:56 wizzyrea lol wowie
18:57 chris the googledoc is coming along really well
18:59 chris_n missed the googledoc one
19:00 chris plenty of "citation needed"
19:00 chris or as my friend at work says "jpg or it didnt happen"
19:01 jdavidb I'm on the Etherpad one, at the moment.  Trying very hard not to get seriously nasty.
19:02 chris_n heh
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19:12 wizzyrea hehe
19:12 wizzyrea that's funny... I always say "pic or it didn't happen"
19:12 owen wizzyrea is file format agnositc
19:13 chris thats cos she helps the terrorists, you have to stick to proprietary formats if you can, i shoulda send patent encumbered .gif from the early 90s or it didnt happen
19:18 wizzyrea O.o
19:18 * wizzyrea is not a terrist
19:19 wizzyrea chat terrorist, maybe
19:19 owen It doesn't count until you get put on a "no-fly" list like me ;)
19:20 wizzyrea seriously?
19:20 owen Well, a mailing list "no-fly" list!
19:20 wizzyrea HAHA
19:20 chris if you use floss = terrorist
19:20 wizzyrea ok yea, you win
19:21 chris hehe
19:21 wizzyrea (terrible joke) Clean teeth are the enemy!
19:21 chris i wonder how that proprietary mailing lists is going
19:22 owen Heh, Frank Coster just sent the "Koha vs Follet comparison" thread to himself and cc'ed the Koha list
19:22 owen Cover blown.
19:22 chris *nod* i just let it through
19:23 wizzyrea LOL
19:23 thd I will create a GoogleDocs account tonight.
19:23 thd I see some important aspects which people are missing.
19:23 owen I guess the lesson of the day is: They notice us!
19:24 thd but it is progressing nicely
19:24 thd owen: yes, it shows more than that
19:25 thd owen: it shows that there business is beginning to be challenged
19:25 chris there were at least 3 proprietary vendors in my Koha talk
19:25 chris at LIANZA
19:25 thd chris: do they not always come?
19:27 chris nope
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19:31 pianohackr|work hi brendan, davi_
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19:32 brendan hey painohackr|work
19:33 thd Someone with familiarity needs to address the PINES specific attacks.  Other than no library would continue using software with the alleged poor performance, I would not know how to answer.
19:34 pianohackr|work is phasefx involved with that? I believe he/she is involved with evergreen, but not sure if that extends to pines specifically
19:34 pianohackr|work looks like they're especially afraid of losing consortium clients
19:34 chris i think someone outside of ESI would be the best, just to remove any suggestions of bias
19:35 pianohackr|work ah, true
19:35 thd I prefer well informed sources.  I can make my own judgements about bias.
19:35 thd Well informed sources might know about some historical problem which has long since been fixed.
19:36 thd Well informed sources may also know about similar bugs in SirsiDynix software.
19:37 pianohackr|work Yes, especially any major symphony clients
19:37 gmcharlt thd: if _PINES_ wants to respond for themselves, that would be good.  but note that in no way does ESI speak for PIENS
19:37 chris thd: horizon has been found to be horribly insecure
19:38 thd gmcharlt: of course I was as careless in my wording as the author of the report in using his language
19:38 thd gmcharlt: Is PINES software Evergreen or is it a very different version?
19:39 gmcharlt PINES (the consortium in Georgia) is running Evergreen
19:39 thd gmcharlt: It is the Evergreen software on which the report is commenting in referring to PINES.
19:41 thd gmcharlt: My point was merely that someone with strong familiarity would be best placed to answer those very specific allegations about performance problems.
19:41 gmcharlt thd: sometimes the best way to win is not to play
19:42 chris first they ignore you, then they laugh, then they fight you, then you win
19:42 gmcharlt definitely the third stage
19:42 thd gmcharlt: Sometimes that is true.
19:42 chris we are at step 3, i agree with galen, FLOSS vendors shouldnt play
19:42 chris but if librarians and users want to, then that is up to them
19:43 moodaepo chris++
19:43 thd I wish that I knew the bugs of other systems as well as Koha.
19:44 gmcharlt well, that's the tricky thing about bugs - once those with the capacity to fix them start using bugs as a way to bash others rather than help fix them, the process becomes hopelessly mired in needless noise
19:44 moodaepo Had to look up the line, did not know it was a Gandhi one.
19:45 thd Certainly the tactic of the original report would backfire merely by seeming to be unfair for not being public and inviting criticism.
19:46 chris moodaepo: and in interesting side note, ghandi was influenced by the passive resistance happening in NZ
19:46 thd gmcharlt: I avoid reporting most bugs I see because it seems easier to fix them than report them.
19:47 gmcharlt not sure I would go that far - recording what you've fixed is useful
19:47 moodaepo chris I see, any readings you could point to would be great.
19:47 thd gmcharlt: yes because I found in 2005 that my fixes became broken again very quickly.
19:48 moodaepo thd but you thought you fixed it and wouldn't want other's to re-invent the fix
19:48 chris[…]runner-of-gandhi/
19:48 moodaepo and if you don't document it...
19:49 thd gmcharlt: I have too high a standard for the quality of my bug reports.  It takes me too long to write them to make them understandable by those who had not seen the original bug.
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19:51 thd mondaepo: yes, it is less likely for people to break a bug fix if it is well documented.  The code is also cleaner now than in 2005 so new patches are less likely to break old ones in mysterious ways.
19:53 cait_laptop I have a list of possible bugs on my desk... but all need more testing in 3.2 :(
19:54 thd mondaepo: I also had the wrong reaction in 2005 to having my patches quickly broken.  Instead of trying to document my fixes so that others would be aware I retreated from fixing things for not enough time to fix them when they would be broken again.
19:55 thd mondaepo: I think that part of the reaction of kados recently to the community is a similar frustration with a misplaced response.
19:56 moodaepo really you think so?
19:58 thd moodaepo: actually I know that in the case of kados, that frustration over various problems is an important part of the origin of his response.
19:59 thd moodaepo: I just wish he would have a calm civil discussion about it openly and we could address those issues collectively.
19:59 thd moodaepo: Not that it would change anything at this point but a little more openness on discussion from kados would help.
19:59 chris unfortunately a lack of humility and too much hubris resulted in what could have been a valid point being a venom ridden attack on a person who most certainly did not deserve it
19:59 moodaepo It somewhat makes sense
20:00 moodaepo like an ugly divorce aye
20:00 thd chris: yes I was not even referring to recently
20:01 thd chris: The problems I recognise and how kados reacts go back to at least 2006.
20:02 thd Unfortunately, now the reactions from kados have  been more severe.
20:04 chris i think in order to have a good discussion about bugs, you ahve to be able to recognise that you are capable of making them
20:04 chris and that seems to me the root cause of this whole thing
20:04 chris the inability to do that
20:05 thd People make bugs fairly much in the degree to which they contribute to the code
20:06 chris thd++
20:06 thd It is difficult for most anyone to look at his own faults clearly
20:06 moodaepo thd++ # that would be me : )
20:06 chris well being able to acknowledge its possible you could make a mistake most people can do
20:06 moodaepo I mean the bug reporting + code contribution
20:07 owen I wonder how much of the emergence of LEK stems from the vision of a future in which LibLime wasn't release manager.
20:08 gmcharlt @quote add <thd> People make bugs fairly much in the degree to which they contribute to the code
20:08 munin gmcharlt: The operation succeeded.  Quote #44 added.
20:10 * thd was supposed to be in a different county hours ago
20:10 chris heh, you best get going
20:10 thd is now known as thd-away
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20:13 owen Hi atz
20:13 atz greets
20:13 chris wb atz!!!
20:14 brendan hi atz
20:17 pianohackr|work hi, atz
20:19 cait_laptop ok, time to go to bed - good night #koha
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20:27 owen ok, time to go home - good evening #koha
20:27 pianohackr|work good night owen
20:27 brendan cya woen
20:27 brendan owen
20:27 owen left #koha
20:28 atz how did the meeting go today?
20:28 chris ahh that was yesterday
20:28 chris and well i thought
20:28 wizzyrea yes, mostly very rational
20:29 chris[…]etingnotes09oct29
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22:52 brendan cya later all -- enjoy hallowenn
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