Time Nick Message 00:01 chris hi brendan 00:01 brendan greetings chris 00:01 brendan going home in a hour to watch game 2 00:01 brendan got it recording again :) 00:02 brendan first messing with some MARC 00:03 chris :) 00:20 hdl_laptop good night 00:20 chris sleep well 00:24 brendan cya hdl_laptop 01:02 chris http://wikileaks.org/wiki/SirsiDynix_Corp_restricted_lobby_paper_against_Open_Source_technologies,_Sep_2009 01:02 brendan http://wikileaks.org/wiki/SirsiDynix_Corp_restricted_lobby_paper_against_Open_Source_technologies%2C_Sep_2009 01:02 brendan heh -- had the same thought 01:02 chris heh 01:02 chris i should tweet it 01:03 brendan race you :) 01:03 brendan you win 01:03 brendan I gotta head home in a minute 01:04 chris done 01:08 chris is that step 3 of gandhi's famous saying 01:09 richard some outrageous stuff in that pdf 01:09 chris yeah, typical proprietary vendor FUD 01:09 chris thank goodness for wikileaks 01:09 richard yeah 01:09 brendan cya you all in a bit 01:09 brendan let's go baseball 01:10 chris :) 01:10 richard looks like they are really, really frightened of evergreen 01:10 chris it sure does 01:20 chris "States Department of Defense, restrict the use of open source software for fear that it could pose a terrorist opportunity. 01:21 chris the next thing they will be saying that only paedophiles use open source software 01:26 richard i guess the commie line isn't that useful anymore - especially since castro retired 01:27 chris heh 01:32 * chris_n2 wanders back 01:33 chris_n2 amazing... both of the links above are dead from here 01:33 chris http://ur1.ca/er73 01:34 chris that work? 01:35 chris_n2 nope :-( 01:35 chris_n2 times out 01:35 chris k hows this 01:36 chris_n2 doesn't DBIx::Class::Schema::Loader pick up relationships? 01:36 chris http://88.80.16.63/leak/sirsidynix-on-open-source.pdf 01:36 chris i think so 01:36 chris_n2 maybe its catalyst that misses the relationships 01:37 chris_n2 or maybe its my ignorance of things 01:37 chris_n2 got the pdf 01:46 * chris_n2 did not realize that a library running Koha or EG would need to convert all of their win32 desktops to *nix desktops... 01:46 chris_n2 but that seems to be what this article says 01:46 chris yeah 01:47 chris someone needs to annotate it, point by point 01:47 chris_n2 there's a latin term for stating a point and then citing irrelevant examples to support it 01:49 chris_n2 hmmm.... here goes the dsl 01:53 pianohacker hahahahah 01:53 pianohacker I lived through sirsi's saas platform 01:53 pianohacker it worked through _remote desktop_ and was unavailable so often that our library had to install an offline circ client 01:54 chris yeah, they arent being sued because they offer a good product their customers like 01:54 pianohacker remote desktop! we had to upgrade our internet connection to support it! 01:54 * pianohacker fumes 01:57 pianohacker i also question the assumption that the us miltary's use of sirsi products is a point in either institution's favor 01:57 chris i guarantee you 01:57 chris the military have hte source code for their missile silos 01:57 chris i guarantee thats not some blackbox proprietary crap software 01:58 pianohacker if they have any clue what they're doing (not a guarantee, but i do sincerely hope so) 01:58 chris thd said to me, they may not share it with us, but they have it 01:58 pianohacker yup 01:58 chris also 01:59 chris http://brlcad.org/d/about 01:59 chris For more than 20 years, BRL-CAD has been the primary tri-service solid modeling CAD system used by the U.S. military to model weapons systems for vulnerability and lethality analyses. 02:00 pianohacker yup. non-intuitive ui, but very good at what it does, and open source 02:00 chris yep 02:01 mason lol 'Caveat emptor! ' 02:01 mason hows that for FUD... :/ 02:05 pianohacker "simply put, we do not use lies and overexaggerations against products that don't compete with us" 02:05 chris they said that? 02:07 pianohacker no, riffing off a paragraph in the conclusion about linux, firefox, etc 02:07 chris ahhh 02:07 chris ahh 02:07 chris i see 02:08 chris im just shaking my head 02:10 pianohacker the fact that sirsidynix published it just makes the claims that much more amazing 02:10 pianohacker though the other proprietary ils companies, some of which know what they're doing, probably don't need to resort to things like this 02:11 chris yeah 02:12 chris if you have a product that isnt shite, and customers who dont hate you 02:12 chris you dont need to do this 02:15 ebegin Hey #koha! 02:15 chris hi ebegin 02:15 ebegin long time :) 02:15 chris yep, hows things? 02:16 ebegin Good... but busy, which is good by itself :) 02:16 chris yep :) 02:16 pianohacker hi, ebegin 02:17 chris_n wow major weirdness with my dsl 02:17 chris_n any ip on the isp's subnets are ok, but the Internet is gone 02:17 chris_n must be a fiber cut 02:18 * ebegin trying to find a way to debug Koha. Since a while, I have a deep recursion on subroutine "utf8::SWASHNEW" as soon as I have a script error in my .pl files 02:18 chris hmm dont thing ive seen that happen before ebegin 02:18 chris chris_n: could be just an edge router gone 02:18 chris_n vpn to the rescue 02:18 ebegin How come I always have strange errors... :) 02:18 pianohacker ebegin: I've seen that happen with some syntax/compilation errors 02:19 pianohacker try running the script in question from a terminal 02:19 chris_n could be since I'm vpn'd to a circuit on the same isp and it still has Inet access 02:19 chris_n ebegin: I've seen that before too 02:20 chris_n mostly with tight-loops 02:20 ebegin pianohacker, yeah, I know that this is my error... good point to run it through the command line... 02:20 chris_n chris: a wrenched article that 02:21 pianohacker ebegin: it seems to be some weirdness with Carp::die, as utf8::SWASHNEW and Carp::die seem to call each other in a neverending chain 02:21 chris_n they sound afraid of open source 02:21 pianohacker not sure why 02:22 chris chris_n: yep, terrified 02:22 pianohacker chris_n: they should be, given their recent move to replace Horizon (bad) with Symphony (reportedly actually worse) 02:22 chris *nod* 02:22 ebegin I remember that we can get the error listed directly in the browser. Anybody knows how? 02:24 chris_n ebegin: have you consulted 'top' to see if your script is still hung... out of curiosity 02:24 pianohacker ebegin: you can change the DebugLevel syspref to 2, but that seems to break in these situations too 02:25 chris_n vnc viewer via vpn is like working in a room full of jello... :-P 02:25 ebegin chris_n, I have this problem when I have a simple syntax error actually... 02:28 ebegin Well, of course when I run the script from the command line, I get the redirection to the login screen... :( 02:29 pianohacker ebegin: yup, though it's only certain errors that trigger it 02:32 chris_n2 and we're back 02:32 chris :) 02:32 chris_n2 it appears to have been a dns outage 02:33 * chris_n2 wipes the jello off ;-) 02:33 ebegin be back soon 02:35 chris_n2 opendns to the rescue 02:38 chris_n2 ok, off to sleep early for a change... g'night 02:39 chris night 03:29 Amit hi 03:29 Amit chirs 03:29 Amit hi chris 03:29 Amit good morning #koha 03:29 Amit heya brendan 03:34 richard hiya amit 03:40 Amit hi richard 04:41 ebegin Hi Amit! 05:04 * ebegin just discovered the "perl -wc script.pl" option... it check your script for syntax errors without running it. 05:12 mahesh hello 05:13 mahesh i have small problem with koha3+ldap setup . 05:13 mahesh i put update and replicate to 0 in koha-conf but koha is still updating the tables 06:02 pianohacker mahesh: you might want to ask on the mailing list, most everyone is asleep at the moment 06:02 pianohacker on that note, good night 06:47 Ropuch Morning 07:01 nicomo hello all 07:02 Ropuch Hi nicomo 07:15 ebegin good nighe all! 07:16 magnusenger hiya #koha! 07:18 Ropuch hello magnusenger 07:18 magnusenger hello Ropuch 07:20 magnusenger must get some breakfast... 07:22 chris hi europe 07:23 chris i guess you have all seen the sirsi dynix attack on open source already? 07:29 Ropuch I'm readinhg atm 07:31 chris its remarkable in a lot of ways, mostly that for a trained librarian you think he would know to cite his quotations 07:35 Ropuch chris: yuo 07:36 Ropuch yes. I mean: if it comes to "let-me-reveal-you-the-truth-behind" bulshit it's rarely supplied with citations 07:36 chris exactly 07:39 chris there are some real doozies in there, including calling equinox a proprietary company, and PINES stupid 07:39 chris they must be panicking 07:40 Ropuch Being considered as possible threat is a compliment 07:40 Ropuch We even deserve 12p color brochure! 07:41 AmitG hi ropuch 07:42 Ropuch "Generally there will be significant limitations to the hardware and operating system options. " 07:42 Ropuch hehehe 07:43 Ropuch Oh geez, this paper is like a post on tennagers forum 07:43 Ropuch s/tennagers/teenagers 07:44 chris Ropuch: yeah 07:44 chris the latest spin now is that they always meant it to be public 07:44 chris which flies against what they told a lot of people 07:45 chris i think instead of PINES writing evegreen being a big strategic error, this white paper was the strategic error 07:46 kf good morning #koha 07:47 Ropuch Guten tag, kf 07:47 Ropuch :) 07:47 kf guten Tag, Ropuch! 07:48 Ropuch Aaah, nouns start with capitals, you've got me! 07:48 chris heh 07:49 chris wie gehts? 07:49 kf did not want to correct you, I have great respect for everybody trying to learn German! 07:49 kf chris: gut, und dir? ;) 07:50 Ropuch kf: no no - just look at my english: it's because people didn't want to correct me 07:50 Ropuch So - have no mercy! ;> 07:50 chris auch gut 07:50 chris (can you say it like that kf?) 07:50 kf perfect chris 07:50 chris yay i remembered something 07:51 kf I got the German MARC21 translation today... 07:52 kf chris: will MARC21 labels be included in translation or does it make sense to translate sql files? 07:52 chris i remember when i was in vienna people would say gruss gott (spelling?) instead of guten tag 07:52 chris kf: at this stage translate the sql files 07:53 chris they have been done for ukranian and russian and seem to work well, ricardo is doing portuguese 07:53 kf chris: ok, one more big task for my long todo list :) 07:53 chris :) 07:53 chris i know the feeling 07:54 chris whats the famous austrian cake? sachre torte? 07:54 kf what about new fields and subfields? we added fields (according to marc21 standard) for linking of authorities and bibs 07:54 kf I dont know austria so well... but sachertorte seems possible 07:54 chris hmmm i think translate those too 07:55 chris http://photos.bigballofwax.co.nz/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=3941 07:55 kf they are not in the official framework right now 07:55 chris you were right :) 07:55 chris (thats from when we were installing Koha at the UN) 07:56 kf you make me hungry with photos like this! :) 07:56 chris kf: you might want to email thd about those, he knows more about marc than any person i know 07:56 chris i think he will want them in the official framework toot 07:57 chris too even 07:57 kf ok, more work *sigh* ;) 07:58 chris hehe sorry 07:58 hdl_laptop hi 07:58 thd kf: there is an important problem for use of the Koha MARC 21 frameworks in Germany 07:58 thd kf: the frameworks are out of date. 07:58 chris say MARC and thd comes running :-) 07:59 chris i think kf has been fixing them thd, to bring them up to date more 07:59 chris hi hdl_laptop :) 07:59 kf hi thd 07:59 thd kf: I have a not quite complete and uncommitted update from over a year ago 07:59 thd kf: hhello 08:00 thd kf: have you updated the frameworks for MAB2 unification? 08:00 kf thd: we have hebrew in 880 in our catalog, so we added some fields for that, and fields for linking of bibs, 775? 773? my colleague did that, but perhaps I can work something out, just dont know when 08:01 thd kf: I have the MAB2 unification uncommitted. 08:01 kf thd: we get marc21 from our union catalog, but this is very new, koha is the first ils in our consortia to work with marc21 08:01 kf thd: not sure if I understand what a MAB2 unification is? 08:01 thd kf: are you in Germany? 08:01 kf thd: yes :) 08:02 thd kf: I assume that you are familiar with MAB2 08:02 kf and I know of mab2 of course, but not sure about the unification 08:02 kf I am not an expert, but I have seen some mab2 records 08:04 thd Unification is the process which USMARC went through to add CANMARC, UKMARC, and now MAB2 to form MARC 21 adding fields and subfields needed for conversion of records in the previous local semantics. 08:04 kf ah ok 08:05 thd The most significant issue for MAB2 unification is treatment of authority field links to a record ID in $0 for authority fields. 08:05 kf I know they were some additions to marc21 requested from Germany 08:06 thd Koha uses local use $9 for the record linking purpose but only internally within Koha. 08:06 kf thd: yes, but we convert our data and copy it to $9 without the last number (can be x) to make it work with koha right now 08:06 kf its works very well 08:06 thd kf: If you have converted then there is no problem. 08:07 kf its more difficult to make hierarchies between records work 08:07 kf I cant explain that well... the ids are in $w 08:08 kf we added an index to koha and are working on the xslt-stylesheets to make the linking work 08:08 thd kf: you should merely be aware that using web based record import, internal Koha record editor, or internal Koha Z39.50 client will use the Koha MARC frameworks to act as filter for the data. 08:09 thd kf: any of those activities will loose data for any subfield not properly defined in the Koha MARC frameworks. 08:09 kf so you can lose data when the fields are not defined in the framework? 08:09 chris thd++ #for doing the minutes 08:09 kf hm, I did not experience that so far, but perhaps we were just lucky 08:10 thd kf: If you import with bulkmarcimport.pl and never alter the records you safely avoid the frameworks filter. 08:10 kf ok, this need some more thought then... my todo list starts making me feel dizzy 08:10 thd kf: you would only notice a problem for the newest fields and subfields which are absent from the frameworks 08:11 thd kf: Most libraries would never notice. 08:11 kf we already added some of them and missed nothing so far... but I should take a closer look at this for sure 08:11 thd kf: German libraries may have a special issue for recent changes. 08:12 thd kf: The reason I did not commit my last incomplete update is that I have tried to keep all the various books, serials, etc. frameworks coordinated which is much work. 08:13 kf yes, but I think an update would be necessary and important 08:13 thd I had not wanted to commit a set to which the update had not been uniformly applied. 08:13 thd I know that it was a mistake. 08:14 thd Fixing it now is even more work because there were a few changes and more updates since I was last working on it. 08:14 thd MARC 21 frameworks turned into an unfunded mandate for me. 08:15 kf hm should koha default framework include all fields and subfields from marc21 standard? 08:16 thd We should think of an easier process to maintain them using only diffs from the default framework. 08:16 kf or is it a selection of fields that are really used 08:16 thd kf: There is a selection only to make the record editor not overloaded with the whole standard. 08:16 kf I can perhaps do some work on default framework, but we dont use other frameworks (cataloging is done in union catalog, so no need for them) 08:17 thd There are a set of hidden values which will populate the record editor if the record already contains those subfields. 08:19 thd If you do all your cataloguing remotely then you do not have much of a problem unless you might upload your records from the local system to the remote one. 08:19 thd s/remotely/remotely on the union catalogue/ 08:20 |Lupin| hello 08:22 kf but we use staged import for updates 08:22 thd kf: I have some programs for capturing frameworks on an installed system. Making a diff to update translations would be relatively easy. 08:22 kf so we can lose data we might need later (when we try to make all those linkings work) 08:23 chris hi |Lupin| 08:23 thd kf: it had been considered a record simplification feature and not a bug by the original programmer of the frameworks 08:24 kf thd: I think its ok, but I was not aware of it 08:24 |Lupin| hello chris 08:24 |Lupin| gutne morgen kf 08:25 kf thd: its not so bad, as all the data is in our union catalog and we can get them easily to update records in koha 08:25 kf guten morgen Lupin :) 08:25 thd kf: it would be difficult to spot and if you are using MARC 21 records as they had been used before MAB2 unification then there may be no use of the new subfields. 08:27 thd kf: The MAB2 unification issue had been largely for DDB and other libraries sharing the same records with the same use of authority control. 08:27 kf thd: we have all German features in our MARC21 records 08:28 thd kf: Do you have a link for me to your union catalogue where I can see the full MARC records? 08:28 kf thd: sorry, you cant see them there, you would need a cataloging client to see them 08:28 kf its an export format 08:28 kf different form the internal format 08:29 thd do you mean a Z39.50 client? 08:29 kf http://swb.bsz-bw.de 08:30 kf z39.50 will be available later, its in testing now 08:31 kf we can get data for import in different export formats, different MARC21 formats even, there is an export format for worldcat and one which includes MAB2 unification 08:32 |Lupin| I have records with item fields but which are not bound to real items. Their itemnumber is 0. I tried to get ried of them by deleting the records and then calling ModBiblio but this does not seem to work. Any suggestion, please ? 08:33 thd kf: there is no MARC display for the catalogue to which you linked. 08:33 thd or at least I found none. 08:34 kf thd: you are right, perhaps I can send you some records 08:34 Ropuch "However, it should be stated that customization is not without risk. Extensive customization, especially with potentially little or no documentation can make upgrades and changes increasingly difficult." 08:34 kf thd: marc21 view is only available in cataloging client 08:34 |Lupin| thd: can't you use KOha to catch some record s in Marc ? 08:34 kf oh 08:35 kf hfjs.bsz-bw.de 08:35 Ropuch Uh - "beware of tea: it can burn your throat" 08:35 kf marc21 view is deactivated (library was confused by it, but you can use download) 08:35 thd kf: send some records which have not passed through Koha to me at koha AT agogme.com 08:36 chris @quote add < Ropuch> Uh - "beware of tea: it can burn your throat" 08:36 munin chris: The operation succeeded. Quote #43 added. 08:36 chris hi paul_p 08:36 paul_p hi chris 08:37 paul_p ( you could not stay quiet at the end ;-) ) 08:37 thd |Lupin| yes Koha has a Z39.50 client but the records captured with it pass through the frameworks as a filter. 08:37 |Lupin| chris: any idea how I can lceanup this faulty items, pls ? 08:37 |Lupin| chris: I think I added them by mistake when I wrote the scripts to import our stuff in KOha... 08:38 thd |Lupin| Is your system live? 08:38 Ropuch chris: I'm just rereading the SirsixDynix comedy ;> 08:38 |Lupin| thd: not yet 08:38 thd |Lupin| Rewrite your scripts and start again. 08:38 kf thd: ok, added you to my todo list 08:38 |Lupin| thd: I was referring to the download facility offered on OPAC.... 08:39 |Lupin| thd: they work now 08:39 chris paul_p: i didnt respond to joshua :) 08:39 |Lupin| thd: the problem is to remove the old stuff from the DB 08:39 paul_p chris: right. 08:39 thd |Lupin| You can purge the DB of records and reimport. 08:40 kf chris: did I miss one of your mails? 08:40 thd |Lupin| The biggest problem is purging Zebra to avoid ghost records. 08:40 |Lupin| thd: I don't want to remove the records completely. I just would liek to remove the faulty item fields they have 08:40 chris kf: i think paul is referring to my emails with ben 08:40 chris |Lupin|: there is no easy way to do that 08:40 thd |Lupin| I have had trouble removing phantom items in the past. 08:41 |Lupin| chris: hmm.. and how about non-easy ways ? 08:41 thd |Lupin| You could alter the database directly, however, starting again might be better if you have not gone live. 08:42 chris |Lupin|: you cant get to the edit item screen in koha? and delete them there? 08:42 |Lupin| thd: ctually... the thing may not affect zebra because the final koha will run on another machine with another zebra db... 08:42 thd |Lupin| Then you are safe from any mysterious Zebra phantoms. 08:43 |Lupin| chris: there are too many ! 08:43 chris then i think thd is right, starting again 08:43 |Lupin| chris: but if that would work, well... then there sholc be a way to achieve the result through the perl API, no ? 08:44 chris yes but you will have to right a special script 08:44 chris and build a list of all the items to delete 08:44 |Lupin| chris: that's not a problem < 08:44 chris might be faster to just delete and reimport 08:44 |Lupin| chris: I already wrote many scripts to do similar things 08:45 |Lupin| chris: I'm just asking which function to call, since my script that deleted the fields from the MARC records and then called ModBiblio seemed to fail 08:45 thd |Lupin| It could be a fun exercise but there are other things with which you could have fun. 08:45 |Lupin| chris: no, reimport would not be _that_ easy... 08:45 chris paul_p: translations work fine for me 08:46 paul_p strange... ( but i'm happy to see that the problem was fixed ) 08:46 chris i had tested them all before the release 08:47 chris and just redid german now 08:48 |Lupin| http://pastebin.com/f4ef9cfcc 08:48 chris |Lupin|: yeah you dont want to do that 08:48 chris you want to use delitem 08:48 |Lupin| that's the cleanupitems script I used... 08:48 |Lupin| can anyone see something faulty with that ? 08:48 chris deleting fields from the marc is the wrong way to do it 08:49 |Lupin| chris: but the itemnumbers are 0 in all the MARC fields.. and I fear the items have already been deleted... 08:49 |Lupin| (frm the items table) 08:50 thd |Lupin| you may have phantoms 08:51 |Lupin| thd: yeah 08:51 thd |Lupin| exorcism can be painful 08:54 chris hi Colin 08:58 Colin Hi Chris 09:00 Colin Someone just pointed out something Abram hints at. Theres probably more sirsidynix experience in the koha and evergreen communites than in SD 09:00 chris yes, someone should say "maybe the better questions is why have all these people left SD" 09:24 paul_p what annoys me the most with Sirsi pdf is that they just speak of LL, once again (and, of course, they don't say you can choose your vendor, that would be hard to explain it's a problem...) 09:26 chris i dont think there is anything that doesnt annoy me about that pdf 09:27 Ropuch chris++ 09:27 Ropuch Every paragraph makes "wtf?!" 09:28 Ropuch But, looking from different view, thsi pdf is really treasure chest with funny statements ;> 09:28 gmcharlt paul_p: well, they do mention Equinox as the other 'proprietary' vendor 09:29 paul_p gmcharlt: yep. Sorry. I meaned " speak only of LL for Koha" 09:29 chris is there anything factually correct in there? only the stuff lifted from wikipedia without citation i think 09:29 gmcharlt and of course, only ESI for EG is just as wrong - there are other vendors playing in that space 09:30 paul_p a fun question to ask : "you say why does OSS companies hire so many SD alumni ? But why are they SD alumni?" :D 09:31 gmcharlt *cough*two-year noncompetes*cough* 09:33 chris yep, i find it funny in its absurdity Ropuch 09:35 Ropuch chris: "Nevertheless, it should be noted that it is rare for completely open source projects to be successful." ;> 09:36 chris yeah, that apache malarky is never gonna catch on 09:36 Ropuch I just don't know what to do: cry or laugh 09:37 Ropuch (writing this on OS gnome-terminal ;-) 09:38 gmcharlt anybody know offhand if SirsiDynix ILSs use Apache as their web server? 09:38 Colin gmcharlt:yes 09:39 chris pianohacker summed it up well 09:40 chris < pianohacker> "simply put, we do not use lies and overexaggerations against products that don't compete with us" 09:41 chris wrt the we dont hate all open source 09:41 chris last paragraph 09:42 chris i also liked colin's tweet 09:42 chris http://twitter.com/cscaim/status/5282608996 09:51 |Lupin| someone knows the syntax to disable foreign key checks in mysql, pls ? 09:53 hdl_laptop SET FOREIGN_KEY_CHECKS=0 09:53 Ropuch I want to buy a good & up-to-date library science encyclopedia/dictionary, can you recommend me something? 09:53 hdl_laptop odlis.org 09:54 Ropuch I know odlis ;> 09:54 |Lupin| thanks hdl_laptop ! 09:54 Ropuch My boss said I should have some boks for myself, so i bought "MODx Web Development" ;> 09:57 |Lupin| Ropuch: what's MODx ? 10:01 Ropuch It's a CMS 10:01 Ropuch My latest love 10:01 |Lupin| Ropuch: never heard about it... 10:04 Ropuch There's so many CMS around you can't know just everyone ;> 10:04 Ropuch http://php.opensourcecms.com/scripts/details.php?scriptid=48 10:04 Ropuch They have a demo here 10:11 |Lupin| Ropuch: thanks 10:12 |Lupin| Ropuch: actually I saw it uses ajax, and since I'm a lynx ser I assume it won't be very useful to me... 10:12 Ropuch Guess not ;> 10:15 Ropuch Why not elinks? 10:25 chris night all 10:28 Ropuch Night chris 10:28 hdl_laptop night chris 10:28 gmcharlt g'night chris 10:29 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: early for you. 10:39 |Lupin| goodnight chris 11:32 chris_n g'morning #koha 11:37 paul_p hi chris nigh_n (with the nick, no risk to be mistaken by a too complex name :D ) 11:42 chris_n hehe 11:42 chris_n it is actually Neuenschwander 11:43 chris_n there are about 12 different spellings 11:43 chris_n and a zillion pronunciations ;-) 11:52 jdavidb Good morning, #koha! 12:12 jwagner Good morning all 12:45 |Lupin| hi jane 12:47 kf hi jane and jdavidb 12:48 jdavidb Hi, kf! :) 12:51 paul_p good morning jdavidb, jwagner & al 12:57 jwagner Good morning everyone 12:59 schuster Morning from Texas! 12:59 jwagner paul_p or other French speakers, can I get some syspref translations? 12:59 schuster Are they around? I have a question about groups again as well... 13:00 schuster My question is do groups only work in Staff searching. I don't seem to see them in the OPAC as an option like I do in staff. 13:00 jdavidb Hiya, schuster. :) 13:00 schuster Hey Davie B... 13:05 jwagner hdl_laptop, are you available for some syspref translations? 13:05 hdl_laptop yes 13:05 jwagner Rather lengthy, I'll ping offline. Thanks. 13:08 jwagner Anyone wondering what I'm up to :-) see Bug 3738 13:08 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3738 enhancement, P5, ---, jwagner@ptfs.com, ASSIGNED, Automate login to web-based self-check system 13:12 schuster hdl_laptop - dealing with libraries and groups - do you have that displaying only in staff or in the pac as well? 13:13 owen Is that possible schuster? There's a setting for it? 13:16 schuster I was able to make groups work in the staff client - libraries and groups there is a "search domain" that seems to work, but it only displays the search group in the staff client 13:17 schuster In the advanced search below libraries - groups shows up after I created a library group.(search 2 libraries at once) 13:18 schuster owen does that answer your question? 13:19 |Lupin| is the pm_to_blib file in Koha sources important ? 13:19 owen Looks like it might be a flaw in the opac template... I see a reference to 'searchdomainloop' in opac-search.pl, but nothing in the opac template 13:21 schuster Wondered about that... Easy to fix? If I only had a fraction of owen's knowledge of web stuff. 13:22 owen I'm taking a look now 13:23 schuster Also someone noted that in a newer version of Koha than I have there are options for "Term Loan Policy" - is that in community koha for 3.2? 13:24 kf schuster: its LEK 13:26 owen I wonder if LibLime is using its own version numbering system in LEK. That's going to get tricky for the rest of us to keep track of. 13:29 schuster phewie 13:32 magnusenger hm, a library wants to set the date due for *all* their current loans to a specific date. Is that as easy as "UPDATE issues SET date_due = '2009-12-31';", or am i missing something? 13:33 jdavidb Hm...should be that easy, magnusenger. I'd be asking questions like "All? Even the already-overdue ones?" 13:33 magnusenger yep, they are very lenient with overdues and have very few holds... 13:35 jdavidb If they're running fines.pl, you'll probably want to dink with already-existing fines on those items, too, which complicates things some. 13:36 owen schuster: In your tests of branch groups, do you find the results to be accurate? 13:36 schuster I'd have to explore more, but so far it seems to be. 13:37 owen schuster: I tried a search on my test system... Searching for "pokemon" returned 14 results. Searching for "pokemon" limited to a branch group returned 721 results! 13:38 owen Do branch groups require some kind of additional configuration I don't know about? 13:38 magnusenger jdavidb: they are not using fines at all... I'll back up the db and give it a try. Thanks! 13:39 jdavidb Good luck, magnusenger. If they're not using fines, I can't think of anything else that'd be negatively affected. 13:41 |Lupin| question for koha developers pls 13:41 |Lupin| I'm adding a subdirectory in Koha sources 13:41 |Lupin| to store a few perl modules we need 13:42 |Lupin| what should be done so that this directory gets installed correctly ? 13:42 |Lupin| is there something to do at all ? 13:42 gmcharlt Perl modules that you're writing? 13:42 gmcharlt or from CPAN? 13:42 |Lupin| gmcharlt: perl modules I'm writing 13:42 gmcharlt ok, then put them in the C4:: namespaces 13:42 gmcharlt and create your subdirectory under C4 13:43 |Lupin| ahah 13:43 |Lupin| gmcharlt: btw: on the production system, what's best according to you ? is it to make install, or to run koha directly from sources ? 13:44 gmcharlt well, both 13:44 gmcharlt you can't quite run everything from sources 13:44 gmcharlt so you need to do an install using dev mode to do it 13:44 |Lupin| gmcharlt: right 13:45 |Lupin| gmcharlt: actually that's what I did on the dev system 13:45 |Lupin| gmcharlt: and there I could keep the dir containing our own modules out of C4... 13:45 gmcharlt for production systems, it depends on how you want to manage change 13:45 gmcharlt if you track HEAD, dev mode is actually pretty useful for production systems 13:46 |Lupin| gmcharlt: would you mind elaborating a bit on your last point, pls ? 13:46 gmcharlt if you are a firm believer in *only* running from a released packages, then you wouldn't do that 13:46 |Lupin| gmcharlt: wella ctually it's nieither of this two... We will track our own HEAD, let's say 13:47 gmcharlt if you're doing that, then you almost certainly want to run in dev mode 13:47 gmcharlt as that automatically ensures that any locla customizations you're doing stay under version control 13:47 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yeah I also have the intuition it will simplify things... 13:47 |Lupin| gmcharlt: right 13:48 schuster owen - how many of the book do you have total? and what "libraries" did you add to the groups? 13:48 |Lupin| gmcharlt: the development model is that we will have one developemnt system where everythning is programmed, tested, etc. and then a production, system. The transfers between dev system and prod system will be through tigit.. 13:48 gmcharlt that's the way to do it 13:49 |Lupin| gmcharlt: btw: I have done a make install on the prod machine from a stable version of Koha, just to make sure everything works correctly. Is there a clean way to uninsall this ? 13:49 owen schuster: 13,835 biblios in my test system, 2 libraries added to the group 13:49 gmcharlt there's an uninstall script from a few months ago around 13:50 gmcharlt but you can get all of the directories you need to delete from the instasllation log 13:50 |Lupin| gmcharlt: oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see it. I just tried make uninstall and this didn't work... 13:50 |Lupin| gmcharlt: ok, hope I kept this one... 13:51 schuster owen - so how many pokemon do you have in branch #2? 13:52 owen schuster: I think it's another problem with the template, hang on 13:52 |Lupin| gmcharlt: just out of curiosity: where is the uninstall script ? 13:52 schuster 14 to 721 may not be bad but sounds like branch 2 has a lot of graphic novels. 13:53 schuster you doing your searches in pac or staff? 13:53 owen Wait, no, not a template problem unless the problem was already there--I'm testing in the staff client 13:56 owen schuster: The result for branch 1 is 1 title, 4 for branch 2. So the results for my group should be 4 13:56 owen (1 in common) 14:02 schuster Yep I am seeing a problem with the groups search - it is ignoring the word but combinging the 2 locations only. 14:02 |Lupin| Please specify Zebra database user [kohauser] 14:02 |Lupin| I'm not quite sure what I should answer here... 14:02 schuster so my search for south dakota - location a is 15, location b is 20 - but group location brings me everything between location a and b regardless of the search term kw 14:03 |Lupin| any hint, pls ? 14:03 schuster phewie - again... I was batting 8 yesterday today I'm striking out! 14:05 Colin Lupin:Just take the defaults for zebra db user its just the koha/zebra traffic 14:07 |Lupin| Colin: okay, thanks 14:14 slef why is wiki.koha.org not answering me? does it answer anyone else? 14:15 jdavidb It's answering me, slef. 14:15 owen Working for me too 14:17 slef hrm :-/ 14:19 slef now it answers me again 14:19 jwagner When you delete an item from a title, is it supposed to go into the deleteditems table? I've been testing creating an item, deleting it (with zebra between each step), but nothing is showing up in deleteditems. 14:21 hdl_laptop It should go there. 14:26 jwagner Hrmmmm. It's not showing up, and I'm not seeing the code (yet) that would actually put it there. In additem.pl, under $op eq "delitem" there's a check for if the item is on loan or on hold, but I don't see where id does anything with it if it's not. 14:26 schuster jwagner - mine does that but I don't know what version you are "testing" on. 14:27 jwagner I'm finding some code in C4:Items.pm for handling deleteds, still looking at it. I'm testing on 3.01.00.041 with a lot of custom work on top. I'll try on another system. 14:32 hdl_laptop jwagner: it is on master 14:33 Colin jwagnar: _koha_delete_item is where its done 14:35 jwagner On one system, with master active (no custom stuff), it works fine. On another, with master active, it doesn't. Something wrong with the table itself, maybe? 14:42 hdl_laptop jwagner: could be 14:43 jdavidb _koha_delete_items is built so that the fields can be in any arbitrary order, but the same fields must exist in both tables, or the INSERT will fail. We've tinkered, and have some added fields in items. 14:43 kf I think both tables need same columns 14:43 jwagner That's the problem :-( 14:44 kf perhaps it will work, once you added them to the other table too 14:44 kf when adding columns to borrowers that seemed to be all that was needed 14:46 schuster I would love a field in deleteditems for when it was added to deleted... That is a problem I am having now 14:46 kf I would love a coloum for accession numbers... :) 14:46 schuster When you "delete" the item it doesn't update the last seen automatically it just copies it over. 14:46 jwagner schuster, there's a timestamp field in deleted items that gets set when it's deleted 14:46 schuster accession numbers? wouldn't that be like the barcode? 14:46 kf no, not here 14:47 kf but it should be unique for each book, so its a pk as a barcode is 14:47 schuster jwagner! Really! I don't see that in the show columns from deleteditems I'll have to look again. 14:47 kf libraries need to track what they buy with acession numbers and track what the delete too 14:48 jwagner schuster, e.g. timestamp -- 2009-10-30 10:27:53 14:48 schuster Please don't tell me you are still using a shelf list.... why can't you track adds through koha and deletes through koha using barcodes ? All of the data is there, the barcode maybe changed? 14:49 schuster jwagner - you are my hero today! whooo who! 14:49 schuster finally a base run! I'm using baseball analogies today. 14:49 jwagner *blush* but was the previous question for me or kf? 14:50 schuster jwagner - for kf - still trying to figure out why you need accession numbers with automation. 14:50 kf schuster: its not my choice and Im not working in a library ;) 14:50 jwagner I'm working on a report to count items deleted in the previous month, so I'll be using the timestamp field. For kf, the other item fields all still seem to be there, so if you have it in the item data now, it should still be reachable. 14:50 wizzyrea hrm 14:50 kf jwagner: which question? 14:51 wizzyrea can someone tell me how the tablesorter in waitingreserves.pl is sorting the Patron column? It looks totally nonsensical to me 14:51 kf schuster: I know its difficult to explain, but its a historical thing too, inventory/accesscion numbers where there before barcodes 14:51 kf schuster: and I think there is a law which makes it necessary - I dont say you cant use an automation system for the tasks needed 14:52 hdl_laptop wizzyrea: which version ? 3.0.4? 14:52 schuster wizzyrea - looks like location only but not sorting by call after that. 14:52 wizzyrea 3.01.00.00.37 14:52 wizzyrea if you click the sorter on patron, 14:52 wizzyrea It's not in a pattern I can discern 14:53 schuster when did you get to upgrade to 3.01.00.00.37 - i'm still .32 14:53 wizzyrea we had some enhancements 14:53 wizzyrea done 14:53 wizzyrea in... june? 14:53 schuster no comment 14:53 wizzyrea that probably bumped the db 14:53 wizzyrea i know. 14:54 kf hmpf. dbavousett @wizzyrea http://koha.incolsa.net has a similar green look. Fun with CSS! 14:54 schuster title and patron don't sort right here either. 14:55 jdavidb kf: :P 14:55 kf there is no green for me :( 14:55 kf Im forced to look at the German version 14:55 wizzyrea i'm looking at the code, and looking at the tablesorter docs, but I'm clearly not seeing what's wrong 14:55 jdavidb Oh? Didn't know they had that set up, even. 14:55 wizzyrea well, green happens to be one of my 2 favorite colors 14:55 owen wizzyrea: I see what you mean. I'll take a look 14:55 |Lupin| wizzyrea: 'm sorry, I didn't follow the conversation very well. Do you now know how the borrower column is sorted ? 14:56 kf its bad, happens all the time. and I cant change to english :( 14:56 wizzyrea |Lupin| no sir, I do not 14:57 owen wizzyrea: It could be a problem with markup in the <td>, I've seen that before. 14:57 wizzyrea owen++ ty 14:57 |Lupin| wizzyrea: ok, I'm continuing to review the code then 14:57 wizzyrea :D thanks 14:58 kf jdavidb: is the header background green in english? it just looks not right for me, there is not enough space for the logo in my version and its the normal blue 14:59 jdavidb yes, kf. Looks very good in English. I wonder how/why it's figuring out to shove you into the German version.. 14:59 kf ip perhaps 14:59 kf ? 14:59 |Lupin| wizzyrea: do you have independent branches, or not ? 15:00 kf but I dont like it. I wanted to make screenshots from a really nice opac for my presentation and it got really ugly 15:01 kf is there a url parameter perhaps to make it switch to english? 15:02 jdavidb hm... 15:04 jwagner FYI on my deleteditems problem, jdavidb found & added the missing fields & it works OK now :-) 15:05 jdavidb see, they don't even have other languages selected. I wonder why it's doing that in the first place. 15:05 owen wizzyrea: It looks like whitespace in the <td> is causing the problem. 15:05 wizzyrea AH! 15:05 * wizzyrea goes to look 15:05 owen Editing a locally-saved version to remove the whitespace made the sorting work correctly for me. 15:06 kf jdavidb: sorry, its just driving me crazy every time I find a catalog doing that to me :) 15:06 kf jdavidb: and i dont understand it really, I think they must have changed their templates? using just css and sysprefs should work for any language 15:07 jdavidb Should, i would think. We just got this customer, already running. I suspect they have some template customizations. 15:08 owen Remember: CSS is in the /lang/ folder, so it sounds like they have a custom stylesheet in /en/ but not in any others 15:08 kf owen: ah! 15:08 jdavidb owen++ 15:08 kf owen++ 15:08 kf but its sad 15:09 owen kf: I'm surprised they even have alternate language templates available! 15:09 owen The US is so very English-centric. 15:09 kf perhaps they are not active but just generated? 15:11 slef nah, the US hates English. Look at how its residents torture it. 15:11 kf its just sad because im sure it looks nice, but I cant see it :( and I cant send the link to others to show them how nice koha opac can look. 15:11 wizzyrea slef: burn! 15:11 owen :D 15:11 kf :D 15:11 slef wizzyrea: you're a day early. 15:11 * jdavidb might be able to fix that for you, kf. 15:12 wizzyrea *sob* 15:12 owen Does Koha respond to the user's browser's language setting? 15:12 kf it seems so 15:12 kf hm pehaps I can deactivate this somewhere 15:13 jdavidb try now? 15:13 kf YAY! 15:13 kf jdavidb++ 15:14 |Lupin| is it possible to download .po files from pootle, or is the site justfor editing translations ? 15:14 wizzyrea jdavidb++ 15:14 wizzyrea international_koha_users_keeping_us_on_track++ 15:14 owen Now there's a mouthful 15:14 kf now I can show this catalog to other German users :) 15:15 * kf loves green 15:15 owen If Koha is automatically picking the translation based on the browser's language setting, I wonder if we should detect this and display the language chooser for those users even if it hasn't been enabled 15:16 kf owen: I would really like that. 15:17 kf jdavidb: have you deleted templates to achieve this? or just deactivated in sysprefs? 15:18 jdavidb renamed a template directory. Since they don't intend to be using any internationalizations anyway, it doesn't make sense to have the tmpls generated. 15:18 jdavidb I'll talk to the customer site, and see what their real intentions are--either we need to copy that CSS over into tmpl directories, or dump 'em. 15:22 kf jdavidb: big thx :) just dont break it again - I just added it to my bookmarks with tags: koha_opac, nice, green, jdavid++ ;) 15:23 jdavidb okay. :) I'll either get it working correctly in German, or remove the possibilities, after i talk with the site. 16:08 kf ok, time to leave - have a nice weekend everybody :) 16:41 |Lupin| hmm 16:41 |Lupin| I'm encountering the classical problem: 16:42 |Lupin| opac searches do not work... 16:42 |Lupin| I never know where it can come from / what to check... 16:42 |Lupin| can someone help ? 16:43 hdl_laptop hidelostitems 16:43 hdl_laptop QueryWeightFields 16:43 wizzyrea indexing? 16:43 |Lupin| hmm 16:44 |Lupin| I re-indexed and the rebuild_zebra -r -b didn't print any serious problem 16:44 hdl_laptop QueryStemming ? 16:44 |Lupin| regarding the settings: the db on the production system (where the problmem occurs) is a dump of the db on the dev system, where the problem does not occur 16:45 hdl_laptop All those sys pref should be checked. 16:45 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: I tend to suspect a problem in Koha-Zebra commnications... 16:45 hdl_laptop you could also look at zebra logs. 16:46 |Lupin| right 16:47 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: in the message saying that there is no result for a title search for blip, it says ti,wrdl: blip 16:51 |Lupin| just looking for the logs... 16:53 hdl_laptop I meant zebra outputs not the interface. 16:54 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: yeah I understood 16:54 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: just checking the parameters in koha-zebra-ctl.sh 16:54 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: should DBNAME be the koha database ? 16:55 hdl_laptop in zebra ? no 16:55 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: in the script... there is a variable called DBNAME... I'm asking what it should contain... 16:57 hdl_laptop koha database. 16:57 hdl_laptop But I think it is unused. 16:58 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: ok 16:58 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: and USER and GOUP ? in a dev install, should they be set to the user and group of the user who did the dev install ? 17:11 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: ok, now it works, thanks. there were old instances of the koha-zebra daemon which prevented the new (right) one from being ran. 17:16 wizzyrea gmcharlt: I just did that thing I always do with my patches, so ignore the first one 17:16 wizzyrea >.< 17:16 gmcharlt ok, Ms. Root ;) 17:16 wizzyrea har de har har 17:17 wizzyrea :) 17:18 |Lupin| :) 17:18 |Lupin| I think we all do that 17:18 |Lupin| the worst is to stop after the first (wrong) patch :) 17:18 |Lupin| that's what I do 17:18 wizzyrea hehe 17:23 wizzyrea lulz, I just increased the brightness on my monitor, it's been at minimum for weeks b/c I'm too lazy to go change it, I kept accidentally hitting the f12 button to decrease brightness, but there's no button on my keyboard to increase brightness 17:23 wizzyrea so I just set it 17:23 wizzyrea and now I'm wondering if this is why I've been getting headaches 17:23 wizzyrea lol 17:23 wizzyrea (because my monitor was too dim) 17:24 gmcharlt back in the days of CRT, I used to go around bumping up the refresh frequency to the max 17:24 * gmcharlt never got why people didn't go simply insane starting at a montor refreshing at only 60 Hz 17:24 wizzyrea oh I KNOW. Maybe we're just more sensitive 17:27 jdavidb wizzyrea: I was only running at about a 40hz refresh rate yesterday. Too many days on the road.... probably gave some folks headaches. :P I *know* I wasn't making much sense. 17:28 wizzyrea lol... that (plus my monitor) explains my vague headache yesterday 17:28 wizzyrea and you made plenty of sense 17:29 jdavidb My brain was *soooo* tired. I only-vaguely recall the drive to KC airport, and I have murky memories of the folks on the plane. Slept a good hour or so on the flight. 17:46 * |Lupin| wonders who sighted persons do to use computers... it is already such a big source of headaches without having to look at a screen ! How tiring it must be when one has to look at one, plus thinking, etc. 17:51 jdavidb |Lupin|: I wasn't aware that you were not sighted. 17:53 |Lupin| jdavidb: oh ? ok. 17:54 |Lupin| gmcharlt: around ? 17:54 gmcharlt |Lupin|: yes 17:56 |Lupin| gmcharlt: C4/Biblio.pm:1123: I'd like to add a || ''; 17:56 jwagner wizzyrea, still around? 17:56 wizzyrea yesm 17:56 |Lupin| gmcharlt: beause without htat my logs are full of warningts saying $issn is used undefined... is that ok ? 17:57 gmcharlt |Lupin|: $issn = $record->subfield('011','a'); ? 17:57 gmcharlt if so, should be OK - matches what is done for MARC21 a few lines further down 17:57 |Lupin| gmcharlt: yes exactly 17:57 |Lupin| gmcharlt: I'm preparing the patch then 17:58 jwagner wizzyrea (and anyone else interested), to follow up on our problem with wanting to place holds on on-order items, but the site doesn't allow on-shelf holds, we tried several permutations, but the only thing that really works is checking all the dummy items out to a dummy user. I set up a separate branch called ORDER (description ON ORDER) and tied the dummy user to it, then logged in as the dummy user and checked the item out to the dummy user. Then th 17:59 gmcharlt jwagner: too long - split it up 17:59 jwagner Sorry -- it shows OK in mine so I wasn't aware. 17:59 jwagner To split: 17:59 jwagner wizzyrea (and anyone else interested), to follow up on our problem with wanting to place holds on on-order items, but the site doesn't allow on-shelf holds, we tried several permutations, but the only thing that really works is checking all the dummy items out to a dummy user. 17:59 |Lupin| jwagner: shows up correctly here, too 17:59 jwagner I set up a separate branch called ORDER (description ON ORDER) and tied the dummy user to it, then logged in as the dummy user and checked the item out to the dummy user. Then the OPAC display shows ON ORDER for the location column. 17:59 jwagner If anyone has any other solution, I'd love to hear it. 18:02 chris morning 18:05 jdavidb Hi, chris. 18:12 |Lupin| hello chris 18:15 |Lupin| and goodbye all ! 18:16 wizzyrea jwagner, hrm. that seems awfully convoluted :( 18:16 wizzyrea wish it were easier 18:16 wizzyrea i'm sure you do too 18:16 wizzyrea mornin chris 18:17 wizzyrea this would be a change (don't hit me gmcharlt) 18:18 wizzyrea it would be neat if you could specify an itemtype to allow on shelf holds 18:18 wizzyrea that would pretty much solve the whole problem 18:18 wizzyrea we have "holds from this library only" and "holds from any library" why not "on shelf items" 18:19 wizzyrea maybe itypes isn't the place to do it 18:19 wizzyrea idk 18:19 wizzyrea or even "on order items" 18:19 wizzyrea if you wanted to be very specific 18:20 wizzyrea ...silence is unnerving. 18:20 jwagner wizzyrea, I was thinking about two different possible long-term fixes. One is something like what you're saying -- in item type setup have a setting that says this itype can have an onshelf hold even if nothing else can. 18:20 wizzyrea yea, that's the first thing that came to my mind 18:21 wizzyrea what's the other? 18:21 jwagner The other possibility would be for sites that don't want to have to create dummy items -- whether or not they allow onshelf holds. We were talking about this here a while back. That would be to have something in the title record that says this title can have a hold even if there are no items. 18:21 wizzyrea hmm 18:21 jwagner I was thinking about looking at the 942 subfields, to see if any are available, and if one could be used for this purpose. 18:21 jwagner That way things like online resources wouldn't allow holds, but on-order stuff could. 18:21 wizzyrea true 18:22 wizzyrea well either solution allows that 18:22 wizzyrea er, 18:22 wizzyrea nm 18:22 jwagner Yes, but having it in the item record saves extra work with creating the dummy item. 18:22 wizzyrea conceptual fail 18:22 jwagner sorry, I mean having it in the title record saves the extra work. 18:23 wizzyrea true... but at least in the case of on order physical items you're going to have to add that item anyway 18:23 wizzyrea at some point 18:23 wizzyrea is it easier to edit existing or create new? 18:23 wizzyrea I guess is the question 18:23 wizzyrea it's always going to be two steps 18:24 jwagner Yes, eventually. I'm thinking of a workflow like this -- acquisitions adds a brief record with no items. Quick & simple. Then someone does the actual cataloging with item records -- maybe 50 copies for Harry Potter. In OCLC or somewhere else, create all the 952s appropriately. Then import that record & overlay the brief one. 18:24 wizzyrea well... maybe not 18:25 wizzyrea (I was unaware you could overlay... interesting) 18:26 jwagner If you have proper match points, you should be able to, right? OCLC # or ISBN or whatever? 18:26 jwagner That's the whole point of the matching rules. 18:26 wizzyrea (but i'm not a proper cataloger, I don't do it every day) 18:26 wizzyrea (I'm sure you're right) 18:27 wizzyrea in your case, yes, I think you're right, for your workflow, that would work well 18:27 wizzyrea in our case 18:27 wizzyrea often we have a single person who 1. orders, 2. receives 3. catalogs the item 18:28 wizzyrea no passing between departments (and we don't use acq) 18:28 wizzyrea so... I think you should go with your best judgement 18:28 jwagner The particular site I'm working with is multi-library, but the central branch does all the ordering. But they do their cataloging in OCLC & then just import. 18:28 jwagner At least we have a workaround for them right now, and have time to think about proper solutions. Thanks much for your help! 18:28 wizzyrea ah, yea, we do z-target searches for our records, and catalog in koha 18:29 wizzyrea hey np, i'm always willing to argue. :) 18:29 wizzyrea er, discuss 18:29 jwagner Now, if someone wants to sponsor the long-term development..... :-) 18:30 wizzyrea hehe, maybe they will ;) 18:30 wizzyrea oh emm gee this is so annoying somebody fix it ASAP we have money we'll pay!!!!!!! 18:30 wizzyrea er, 18:30 jwagner Talk To Me :-) 18:30 wizzyrea an example of an enthusiastic koha user 18:31 wizzyrea hey, we can't PAY our vendor to do stuff for us 18:31 wizzyrea seriously 18:31 wizzyrea er, we have paid and they still don't do stuff for us, 18:31 wizzyrea so 18:31 wizzyrea ... 18:31 wizzyrea not much to lose there. 18:32 jwagner Well, if someone else pays us to do it, you'll get it eventually.... 18:32 wizzyrea <3 18:32 wizzyrea really you ought to just check a box and say, item is on order. allow holds. 18:32 thd gmcharlt: are you here? 18:34 wizzyrea OH 18:34 wizzyrea jwagner 18:35 wizzyrea what if, when you were adding the title, you did just that.. checked a box and it *created the dummy item for you* 18:35 wizzyrea with all of the right settings 18:36 cait_laptop thd: sorry, had no time to look for some nice marc21 records to send to you, but will do tomorrow - is .mrk ok? are you interested in something special? 18:36 wizzyrea cait: thanks again for the help yesterday, my librarians are squee happy now 18:36 jwagner That would be nice too. But part of our problem is getting the OPAC to say that it's on order. That's why I ended up using the separate library, because that displays as the location. Anything like an item status would have to be cleared manually by the cataloger, but the library clears with a checkin. 18:36 thd cait_laptop: nothing special 18:36 cait_laptop wizzyrea: you are welcome! it made me happy that I was able to help 18:36 wizzyrea right, but if the itype is ON ORDER 18:36 wizzyrea that would display in the opac 18:37 jwagner Yes, a possibility. 18:37 wizzyrea if you overlay anyway... 18:37 wizzyrea it would go away when they recatalog, right? 18:37 thd cait_laptop: standard MARC communications format which often appears in .mrc files is fine. 18:37 jwagner They'd have to edit the item record -- overlay just affects the title record and adds new items, so far as I know. 18:38 jwagner Trying to think of a workflow with as few steps as possible..... 18:38 cait_laptop jwagner: what about a temporary location like PROC that can be reset by check in? 18:38 wizzyrea so doesn't remove existing 18:38 cait_laptop jwagner: have not tried temp locations yet, but nicoles doc is on my desk at work :) 18:38 jwagner cait_laptop, I tried working with the In Processing (PROC) but wasn't wholly satisfied with the OPAC display. It didn't jump out and bite you, so to speak :-) 18:39 cait_laptop I think its the way our current system works too 18:39 jwagner We wanted something to make it REALLY OBVIOUS to the patrons, so they'd understand where the item was. 18:39 cait_laptop with a temporary status 18:39 wizzyrea so, acq orders the item, adds the brief record, checks the box "On Order". Koha creates the dummy item with ON ORDER itype. Item is received, goes to cataloging who then does the OCLC magic and overlays 50 copies... the dummy is still existant? 18:40 jwagner Yes, so far as I know. Someone would then have to delete the dummy. 18:40 cait_laptop items cant be overlayed as far as i know 18:40 wizzyrea hrm 18:41 cait_laptop ah ok, sorr 18:41 jwagner For OPAC display, if we went the title-no-items route, we'd have to have some kind of a check for the "allow holds" setting and do a screen display saying it was on order. 18:41 cait_laptop y 18:42 gmcharlt hi thd 18:42 wizzyrea yeah... this is an interesting problem 18:42 thd hello gmcharlt 18:42 jwagner Something to turn over in the back of the head for a while. It's amazing how many problems get solved there. Or about 2:00 AM when I wake up with Perl code running through my head..... 18:43 wizzyrea hee 18:43 thd gmcharlt: who does the Equinox FUD responses now that Karen Schneider has left? 18:43 jwagner Hey, there are things I'd RATHER be dreaming about! 18:43 wizzyrea kittens, rainbows, hot chocolate, surfing 18:43 wizzyrea (I have lots of dreams about surfing, for whatever reason) 18:43 gmcharlt thd: depends - are you refering to the SirsiDynix white paper 18:43 thd gmcharlt: yes 18:44 thd gmcharlt: It is significantly aimed at Evergreen while casting general aspersions. 18:45 gmcharlt thd: basically, ESI has no comment for now - initial community response is doing a good job of dealing with it 18:45 cait_laptop jwagner: my dreams about perl are strange, like being in a labyrinth and finding no way out 18:45 joetho "Someone would then have to delete the dummy." 18:45 joetho archive that. 18:46 joetho or quotify or whatever you call it. 18:46 thd gmcharlt: OK, so no one is yet planning any detailed response? 18:46 cait_laptop perhaps will get better when I finally finish reading this perl book ) 18:46 gmcharlt thd: we're thinking about it 18:47 thd gmcharlt: I would like to offer my assistance in any detailed refutation if anyone is interested. 18:47 jwagner cait_laptop, "You are in a twisty maze of passages, all alike." Isn't that a quote from some game? 18:47 thd gmcharlt: There are some easy responses to some parts which could go overlooked. 18:48 thd gmcharlt: Like all effective FUD, there is also some truth in the report which is why responding may be helpful. 18:50 chris the only truths contained are truths about software development, not constrained to FLOSS 18:51 wizzyrea thd: there is a google doc available for general refutation comment 18:51 chris at least the only ones i could find 18:51 wizzyrea if you would like access 18:51 chris also there is 18:51 chris http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/SirsiDynix:_Integrated_Library_System_Platforms_on_Open_Source 18:51 chris and an etherpad doc too 18:53 chris http://etherpad.com/9OzS9eowye 18:53 chris i have received 3 invites to the googledocs one, but when i click on them it says i dont have access 18:53 chris whats that about then 18:54 chris ah ha, the 4th one worked 18:54 owen I've experienced that problem before with other docs, when someone invited me using a none-gmail address of mine 18:54 chris yeah 18:54 wizzyrea dear lord, it's almost 2 18:54 thd chris: there are some comments in the report which are generally true about free software or specifically true for the case given but still very misleading. 18:54 wizzyrea no wonder I"m hungry 18:55 jwagner Gotta run, happy weekend everyone! 18:55 thd happy weekend jwagner 18:55 chris_n etherpad says "Sorry, only 16 people are allowed to edit a single pad at the same time in the free version of EtherPad." 18:56 cait_laptop happy weekend jwagner 18:56 chris ahh 18:56 wizzyrea lol wowie 18:57 chris the googledoc is coming along really well 18:59 chris_n missed the googledoc one 19:00 chris plenty of "citation needed" 19:00 chris or as my friend at work says "jpg or it didnt happen" 19:01 jdavidb I'm on the Etherpad one, at the moment. Trying very hard not to get seriously nasty. 19:02 chris_n heh 19:12 wizzyrea hehe 19:12 wizzyrea that's funny... I always say "pic or it didn't happen" 19:12 owen wizzyrea is file format agnositc 19:13 chris thats cos she helps the terrorists, you have to stick to proprietary formats if you can, i shoulda send patent encumbered .gif from the early 90s or it didnt happen 19:18 wizzyrea O.o 19:18 * wizzyrea is not a terrist 19:19 wizzyrea chat terrorist, maybe 19:19 owen It doesn't count until you get put on a "no-fly" list like me ;) 19:20 wizzyrea seriously? 19:20 owen Well, a mailing list "no-fly" list! 19:20 wizzyrea HAHA 19:20 chris if you use floss = terrorist 19:20 wizzyrea ok yea, you win 19:21 chris hehe 19:21 wizzyrea (terrible joke) Clean teeth are the enemy! 19:21 chris i wonder how that proprietary mailing lists is going 19:22 owen Heh, Frank Coster just sent the "Koha vs Follet comparison" thread to himself @follett.com and cc'ed the Koha list 19:22 owen Cover blown. 19:22 chris *nod* i just let it through 19:23 wizzyrea LOL 19:23 thd I will create a GoogleDocs account tonight. 19:23 thd I see some important aspects which people are missing. 19:23 owen I guess the lesson of the day is: They notice us! 19:24 thd but it is progressing nicely 19:24 thd owen: yes, it shows more than that 19:25 thd owen: it shows that there business is beginning to be challenged 19:25 chris there were at least 3 proprietary vendors in my Koha talk 19:25 chris at LIANZA 19:25 thd chris: do they not always come? 19:27 chris nope 19:31 pianohackr|work hi brendan, davi_ 19:32 brendan hey painohackr|work 19:33 thd Someone with familiarity needs to address the PINES specific attacks. Other than no library would continue using software with the alleged poor performance, I would not know how to answer. 19:34 pianohackr|work is phasefx involved with that? I believe he/she is involved with evergreen, but not sure if that extends to pines specifically 19:34 pianohackr|work looks like they're especially afraid of losing consortium clients 19:34 chris i think someone outside of ESI would be the best, just to remove any suggestions of bias 19:35 pianohackr|work ah, true 19:35 thd I prefer well informed sources. I can make my own judgements about bias. 19:35 thd Well informed sources might know about some historical problem which has long since been fixed. 19:36 thd Well informed sources may also know about similar bugs in SirsiDynix software. 19:37 pianohackr|work Yes, especially any major symphony clients 19:37 gmcharlt thd: if _PINES_ wants to respond for themselves, that would be good. but note that in no way does ESI speak for PIENS 19:37 chris thd: horizon has been found to be horribly insecure 19:38 thd gmcharlt: of course I was as careless in my wording as the author of the report in using his language 19:38 thd gmcharlt: Is PINES software Evergreen or is it a very different version? 19:39 gmcharlt PINES (the consortium in Georgia) is running Evergreen 19:39 thd gmcharlt: It is the Evergreen software on which the report is commenting in referring to PINES. 19:41 thd gmcharlt: My point was merely that someone with strong familiarity would be best placed to answer those very specific allegations about performance problems. 19:41 gmcharlt thd: sometimes the best way to win is not to play 19:42 chris first they ignore you, then they laugh, then they fight you, then you win 19:42 gmcharlt definitely the third stage 19:42 thd gmcharlt: Sometimes that is true. 19:42 chris we are at step 3, i agree with galen, FLOSS vendors shouldnt play 19:42 chris but if librarians and users want to, then that is up to them 19:43 moodaepo chris++ 19:43 thd I wish that I knew the bugs of other systems as well as Koha. 19:44 gmcharlt well, that's the tricky thing about bugs - once those with the capacity to fix them start using bugs as a way to bash others rather than help fix them, the process becomes hopelessly mired in needless noise 19:44 moodaepo Had to look up the line, did not know it was a Gandhi one. 19:45 thd Certainly the tactic of the original report would backfire merely by seeming to be unfair for not being public and inviting criticism. 19:46 chris moodaepo: and in interesting side note, ghandi was influenced by the passive resistance happening in NZ 19:46 thd gmcharlt: I avoid reporting most bugs I see because it seems easier to fix them than report them. 19:47 gmcharlt not sure I would go that far - recording what you've fixed is useful 19:47 moodaepo chris I see, any readings you could point to would be great. 19:47 thd gmcharlt: yes because I found in 2005 that my fixes became broken again very quickly. 19:48 moodaepo thd but you thought you fixed it and wouldn't want other's to re-invent the fix 19:48 chris http://gandhifoundation.org/2009/05/28/te-whiti-o-rongomai-a-forerunner-of-gandhi/ 19:48 moodaepo and if you don't document it... 19:49 thd gmcharlt: I have too high a standard for the quality of my bug reports. It takes me too long to write them to make them understandable by those who had not seen the original bug. 19:51 thd mondaepo: yes, it is less likely for people to break a bug fix if it is well documented. The code is also cleaner now than in 2005 so new patches are less likely to break old ones in mysterious ways. 19:53 cait_laptop I have a list of possible bugs on my desk... but all need more testing in 3.2 :( 19:54 thd mondaepo: I also had the wrong reaction in 2005 to having my patches quickly broken. Instead of trying to document my fixes so that others would be aware I retreated from fixing things for not enough time to fix them when they would be broken again. 19:55 thd mondaepo: I think that part of the reaction of kados recently to the community is a similar frustration with a misplaced response. 19:56 moodaepo really you think so? 19:58 thd moodaepo: actually I know that in the case of kados, that frustration over various problems is an important part of the origin of his response. 19:59 thd moodaepo: I just wish he would have a calm civil discussion about it openly and we could address those issues collectively. 19:59 thd moodaepo: Not that it would change anything at this point but a little more openness on discussion from kados would help. 19:59 chris unfortunately a lack of humility and too much hubris resulted in what could have been a valid point being a venom ridden attack on a person who most certainly did not deserve it 19:59 moodaepo It somewhat makes sense 20:00 moodaepo like an ugly divorce aye 20:00 thd chris: yes I was not even referring to recently 20:01 thd chris: The problems I recognise and how kados reacts go back to at least 2006. 20:02 thd Unfortunately, now the reactions from kados have been more severe. 20:04 chris i think in order to have a good discussion about bugs, you ahve to be able to recognise that you are capable of making them 20:04 chris and that seems to me the root cause of this whole thing 20:04 chris the inability to do that 20:05 thd People make bugs fairly much in the degree to which they contribute to the code 20:06 chris thd++ 20:06 thd It is difficult for most anyone to look at his own faults clearly 20:06 moodaepo thd++ # that would be me : ) 20:06 chris well being able to acknowledge its possible you could make a mistake most people can do 20:06 moodaepo I mean the bug reporting + code contribution 20:07 owen I wonder how much of the emergence of LEK stems from the vision of a future in which LibLime wasn't release manager. 20:08 gmcharlt @quote add <thd> People make bugs fairly much in the degree to which they contribute to the code 20:08 munin gmcharlt: The operation succeeded. Quote #44 added. 20:10 * thd was supposed to be in a different county hours ago 20:10 chris heh, you best get going 20:13 owen Hi atz 20:13 atz greets 20:13 chris wb atz!!! 20:14 brendan hi atz 20:17 pianohackr|work hi, atz 20:19 cait_laptop ok, time to go to bed - good night #koha 20:27 owen ok, time to go home - good evening #koha 20:27 pianohackr|work good night owen 20:27 brendan cya woen 20:27 brendan owen 20:28 atz how did the meeting go today? 20:28 chris ahh that was yesterday 20:28 chris and well i thought 20:28 wizzyrea yes, mostly very rational 20:29 chris http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:events:meetings:irc_meetings:meetingnotes09oct29 22:52 brendan cya later all -- enjoy hallowenn