IRC log for #koha, 2006-08-11

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
13:44 kados owen: wow, you've been busy
13:44 kados owen: looking pretty web 2.0 :-)
13:44 owen Just playing around.
13:45 owen I haven't tested yet in anything other than Firefox
13:45 kados right
13:45 kados seems like the facets have changed since yesterday
13:45 kados did you not like the underlined links for them?
13:46 owen I think it was the opac stylesheet switch. I need to go back in and pick up the changes from yesterday
13:46 kados also ... talked to james and tina today ... and neither of them even noticed the search bar that stays resident on the top of the page
13:47 owen :D
13:47 kados I don't know if that's just because they're librarians ....
13:47 kados or whether it's because it's not a focal point of the page
13:47 owen Do you mean just in the new design, or all along?
13:47 kados all along :-)
13:48 kados amazon does a nice job of framing out the search bar within the header
13:48 kados I _think_ at least that it's a focal point
13:48 kados design is bullocks :-)
13:49 kados as many opinions as people :-)
13:49 kados but just thought you might be interested
13:50 owen Then again, I still wonder how people can /not/ use the tab key to go from the username to the password form field!
13:51 kados heh
13:51 kados yea, it really is surprising
13:52 kados I should tell you ...
13:52 kados I'm going to be hiring a prof in texas to do a usability study on the new OPAC
13:53 kados sometime in Sept
13:53 owen Wow, that's cool
13:53 kados she teaches a couple classes at UofT
13:53 kados one is on 'Integrated Library Systems'
13:54 kados and LibLime has set up a bunch of koha installs for her students to learn on :-)
13:54 kados ie, they have to set up a virtual library, etc.
13:54 kados the other class is on usability
13:54 kados and she's gonna use the Koha OPAC as the classes project
13:54 kados so we'll get some pretty nice data from that
13:54 kados and ...
13:55 kados we're planning to co-author an article on OPAC usability
13:55 kados which will also include some info on relavance ranking
13:55 owen Very cool
13:55 kados yea, it should be good
13:56 kados so your work will be under the microscope soon :-)
13:57 kados I'd like to take her recommendations from the study, and incorporate them into the next version
13:57 kados s/like to/plan to/
14:01 owen If there's any way I can contribute to the process let me know
14:01 kados definitely
14:02 kados I was figuring that probably the class would just be evaluating whatever dev_week ends up looking like when NPL goes live
14:02 kados dev_week OPAC I mean
14:02 owen right
14:02 kados might as well use the new OPAC
14:05 kados :-)
14:05 kados I'm tellin ya ... can't beat a macbook :-)
14:06 kados osx, windows, and linux
14:06 kados I reformatted my hd again, no more native windows or linux partitions
14:06 kados the parallels software runs so well ...
14:06 kados I can run them all within OSX and don't need to reboot to use them now
14:34 Burgwork kados, you headed to LWESF?
14:35 kados Burgwork: what's that?
14:37 Burgwork kados, linuxworld san fran
14:37 kados nope
14:38 Burgwork too bad
14:41 hdl owen : are you playing web 2.0 ?
14:41 kados hdl: owen is :-)
14:41 owen I'm all about the gradients, baby!
14:41 hdl can you show me some of your games ?
14:41 kados owen: yea, they rock :-)
14:41 hdl is it in zoompoac ?
14:42 kados yep
14:42 owen Actually, right now I'm trying to evaluate some alternative CSS layouts for use in the OPAC
14:42 kados hdl: it's been shifting quite a bit today
14:42 owen Trying to decide how I feel about CSS hacks...
14:42 kados hehe
14:42 kados which ones?
14:42 kados are we in quirks mode?
14:43 owen Have you seen this article? http://www.positioniseverythin[…]es/onetruelayout/
14:43 kados yep
14:43 kados I was actually gonna point you to it
14:43 owen It's a very flexible layout system, but it seems to use just about every hack imaginable.
14:43 kados a few weeks back
14:43 kados but I forgot
14:43 kados yea, it's pretty nice
14:44 owen The original NPL OPAC template is pretty loose, in part because I avoided hacks in favor of letting things shift around a little bit in different browsers
14:44 owen But if we want to tighten things up...
14:44 kados yep
14:45 kados there's also the yahoo stuff
14:45 kados which is pretty much airtight
14:45 kados some really nice stuff in there
14:45 owen ...but oriented towards fixed layouts, as I recall
14:45 kados if anyone had the time to learn how to use it
14:45 kados yep
14:45 hdl oho : refine your serach loses your previous search.
14:45 kados definitely not liquid
14:45 kados hdl: yep
14:45 kados hdl: I'm re-writing the facets again :-)
14:46 hdl oh.
14:46 kados hdl: what took about 100 lines I'm gonna do in about 10
14:46 kados owen: that's fine ...
14:46 kados I dont' have a strong opinion on the liquid vs fixed
14:46 kados I've seen good designs with both
14:47 hdl Congratulations.
14:47 kados hdl: plus as I did it before it was too proc intensive
14:47 kados hdl: the new way is much cleaner
14:47 hdl I've seen some rss features.
14:47 hdl Cool.
14:47 kados :-)
14:48 hdl Is this devweek ?
14:48 kados yes
14:48 kados but the rss isn't committed yet
14:48 kados it's an opensearch->z3950 proxy
14:48 kados not strictly part of Koha, but a side project of LibLime's
14:48 hdl Impressive.
14:48 kados when I get a chance I'll release it
14:50 chris i need to finish my rss feed for items on issue too, and commit that
14:50 kados that'd be sweet
14:50 kados 3.0'll have reviews too, right?
14:52 chris yep, reviews are committed to head already
14:53 chris but now i must go to tech meeting
15:39 kados owen: you around?
15:39 kados owen: just finished the new facets builder
15:39 kados owen: wanted to update the template
15:39 kados owen: any objection to me hacking on for a bit?
15:45 owen Go ahead
15:56 owen kados: I'm heading out. I'll read you in the morning.
15:56 kados sounds good
15:56 kados have a good evening
16:10 kados heh ... facets are now done in 35 lines
16:10 kados woot
16:10 kados still some cleanup to do
16:10 kados but first, coffee :-)
16:15 thd kados: are you back from coffee?
16:15 kados yes
16:16 kados thd: you'll be glad to know I laid the groundworks for fully extensible facets
16:22 thd kados: does that mean that you have the groundworks for[…]isions_access_pt1 ?
16:23 thd kados: not that I finished that document.
16:24 thd kados: I worked on making the wiki CSS like the koha,org CSS before switching to frameworks.
16:25 thd a modest task because it has to match the class attribute usage from the wiki
16:26 thd kados: are you still there?
16:42 thd kados: the major point about meta-record indexing is that it should be so efficient if it can be that Karen Coyle who knows and cares much about  library system efficiency would say that Koha is using some efficient principles.
16:44 thd kados: I want to ask her ideas about meta-record design as well because she has some and build what tumer proposed 28 years ago without XML.
16:44 thd s/build/built/
16:47 johnb Good evening everyone!
16:47 kados thd: i agree
16:47 kados hi jon
16:47 kados johnb even :-)
16:47 kados johnb: how's things?
16:47 johnb Good evening everyone
16:48 johnb I have done a rough rough draft for a foundation
16:49 kados cool!
16:49 johnb It is posted under and is entiled a Modest Proposal
16:49 kados I'll have a look john
16:49 johnb I will try to get the comments working tomorrow so everyone can contribute
16:50 kados johnb: I've got a name recommendation
16:50 kados johnb: the Open Source Library Consortium
16:50 kados johnb: OSLC ;-)
16:50 kados johnb: thought of that one at ALA while being annoyed at OCLC :-)
16:51 kados johnb: what do you think?
16:51 kados I even think we could buy as it doesn't seem to be used
16:51 kados (though it is registered ... but I bet we could get it if persistant)
16:54 johnb Kados:  I think we will start a list
16:55 kados johnb: we meaning meadville? or meaning you and I :-)
16:55 kados johnb: I could make a list on tonight if we wanted
16:58 Burgwork johnb, why limit your foundation to just ils'? what about public computing projects (when I convince my work to opensource DS)
16:59 johnb We can change it to make it more exclusive
16:59 thd Burgwork: what is DS?
16:59 Burgwork thd, DiscoverStation
16:59 johnb Kados:  If you want to keep the list please feel free, I am just proposing here
17:00 thd johnb: what list?
17:00 thd list of possible names?
17:02 thd Burgwork: have them put it under GPL V 3 next year with a few optional restrictions to ensure everyone knows that they made it and they should be happy.
17:04 thd Burgwork: do you work for both Userful and Katipo
17:04 thd ?
17:12 Burgwork thd, just Userful
17:12 thd Burgwork: what do you do with Koha?
17:13 Burgwork currently just produce hot air. I did a review of the OPAC interface (zoomopac)
17:14 thd Burgwork: do you mean your review posted on koha-devel or some other review?
17:15 thd johnb: would Koha users be reassured by a foundation that did not include Koha in the foundation name?
17:16 Burgwork -devel
17:16 johnb thd:  good question.  I do not have an answer.
17:17 thd johnb: would you be reassured if you were not directly involved?
17:18 thd johnb: I see no reason that a foundation which includes reference to Koha cannot do other things that do not relate perfectly to what Koha does now.
17:19 johnb thd well the philosophy I am following is to m ake the organization as all inclusive as possible well at the same time allowing everyone to contribute without being threatening
17:20 thd johnb: I definitely like that idea
17:20 johnb thd:  the beauty of the apach foundation is that they allow the different communities to run themselves with very very little oversite
17:21 thd johnb: I just want Katipo and HLT, and nervous potential Koha users to be able to see there way to supporting the foundation in future.
17:22 johnb thd:  anyone can form there own community, manage the community the way they want to, while still at the same time benefit for being part of a much larger community
17:23 thd johnb: yet, of course we should not be restricted by mistakenly choosing some overly narrow legal statement of the purpose of the foundation.
17:24 thd johnb: what aspects oft OCLC do you find most vexing?
17:25 kados thd: OCLC believes that all data should be in OCLC
17:25 kados thd: they are not _open_
17:25 johnb thd:  We do not use OCLC due to the cost, though they have sent a team here to study our ops
17:26 thd johnb: what vexed you at the ALA convention?
17:26 kados thd: that was me that was vexed :-)
17:27 johnb thd: unclear of question.  Did not attend ALA this year, all travel money spent on some trip to France.
17:27 kados johnb: hehe
17:27 thd johnb: I spent all my money completely travelling to Europe
17:29 thd kados: OCLC having all data is not terrible.  What is terrible is that they want to claim ownership of almost all the data in their system.
17:29 kados thd: if they shared their data, I'd be fine with them having it all
17:29 kados but once it goes into OCLC, there it stays
17:30 thd kados: do not worry there is better data outside OCLC.  I can prove it.
17:30 kados :-)
17:31 thd kados: even when the libraries are members of OCLC they often have better more complete records than the ones in OCLC which they have not contributed and never will.
17:34 thd kados: OCLC is overdue for a policy change about records data and suing people for doing fun things with DDC.
17:36 thd kados: they never started with those policies although they did become especially mean soon after they bought Forest press including DDC.
20:05 thd kados: are you still there?
02:28 toins hi all !
02:34 hdl hi
02:34 dewey what's up, hdl
02:35 toins salut hdl
02:41 osmoze hello #koha
03:48 paul hello osmoze
03:48 paul osmoze, tjs pas de retour de ta machine de tests ?
03:48 paul sinon, je publie un 2.2.6RC3 rien que pour toi...
03:49 osmoze coucou non, je dois avoir l alim mercredi qui arrive
03:49 paul (hdl et kados on fait plusieurs bugfixes sur les périodiques et le bulletinage, et il en reste encore un peu)
03:49 osmoze je la monte mercredi ou jeudi matin et vendredi c est parti
03:50 paul ok, sauf que je serai en congés
03:50 paul donc ca attendra mon retour.
03:50 Comete bonjour à tous
03:50 paul encore que, je diffuserai ptet direct en 2.2.6 officielle, vu que joshua l'a déjà installée aux US
03:51 paul hello st lo
03:51 osmoze ok paul
03:51 osmoze bonjour Comete
03:51 toins que de francais ce matin....
03:51 osmoze t es en vancances combien de temps ?
03:51 osmoze salut toins
03:51 toins salut osmoze
03:51 paul en tous cas, les pbs principaux dans l'éditeur MARC, dans les acquisitions et dans le bulletinage ont été éradiqués.
03:51 paul vacances 2 semaines.
03:51 paul retour le 28 aout
03:52 paul Tiens, une petite nouvelle, osmoze : la famille poulain va s'agrandir (en février prochain).
03:53 osmoze roh :) ca va faire 4 alors si mes mathematiques primaire sont bonnes
03:53 paul ouaip
03:53 paul et si c'est encore un garcon, ca fera les 4 daltons.
03:53 osmoze lol
03:53 paul du coup, Simon notre ainé espère vraiment une fille
03:53 paul pour éviter d'être averell
03:54 paul :-D
03:54 osmoze tu m etonnes, et toi aussi non ?
03:54 osmoze mdr :)
03:54 paul en fait, non, ca m'est égal : une fille ce serait super, et un garçon, je sais déjà comment ca marche. Donc les 2 seront bien.
03:54 paul une seule chose est sûre : il n'y en n'a qu'un !
03:55 osmoze il aurait manqué plus que ca !
03:55 osmoze des doublons...
03:55 paul heu... on appelle ca des jumeaux. les doublons, c'est sur un ordinateur ou dans un catalogue de bibliothèque ;-)
03:56 Comete ou des exemplaires non ? :)
03:58 osmoze déformation professionnelle :)
03:58 paul lol
04:00 paul Comete: je dirai plutot des doublons, puisque dans ce cas, ce serait 2 documents identiques (même titre, même éditeur, même code barre). Par contre, les exemplaires, s'ils sont rattachés à la même notice bibliographique "poulain", ont leurs spécificité (code barre différent : 29/09/95 pour le 1er, 14/09/00 pour le second et 01/10/04 pour le 3eme)
04:00 paul c'est le grand délire aujourd'hui sur #koha !!!
04:07 osmoze :)
04:07 osmoze c est des reeditions
04:07 osmoze va falloir que je m y mette aussi bientot en parlant de ca :/
04:57 osmoze bye
06:11 slef paul: was it between hammer and anvil? => in English: between the devil and the deep blue, or between a rock and a hard place
06:25 paul slef, yes, hammer & anvil.
06:48 slef paul: it's valid in English, but I've not seen it used in anything later than 1960s.
06:48 paul it's a word to word translation from french.
06:49 paul we uses it even in 2006 ;-)
06:50 slef yeah, backwards Frenchies ;-)
06:51 paul lol
06:51 paul why in english between "devil" & "deep blue"
06:51 paul what is "deep blue" ?
06:51 slef Ah,
06:51 slef deep blue sea
06:52 paul i still don't see the relation between devil & a see...
06:52 slef but that's too long to fit the rhythm
06:52 paul ok ;-)
06:52 slef well, which would you jump into?
06:52 paul ah, ok !
06:53 paul "hammer & devil" is not a question of choice for frenchies. It's a question of being caught whatever you do (& even if you do nothing). And harmed !
06:54 slef s/devil/anvil/ ; yes, I think the rock and a hard place one might be more similar, but doesn't sound so pretty ;-)
06:55 slef the "devil" in this phrase is not Old Nick -- it was sailor's slang for a seam around the hull of an old sailing ship, all the way down by the waterline. The seams of wooden ships required periodic caulking with pitch (a tar-like substance) lest they develop leaks, and often this caulking had to be done while the ship was at sea. A sailor lowered over the side to caulk "the devil" found himself in a very precarious position indeed -- "between
06:55 slef
06:55 slef It's a nice story, but the problem is that "between the devil and the deep blue sea" was used by landlubbers for at least 200 years before
06:57 slef The most likely origin of this idiom is the episode of Homer's Odyssey in which Odysseus and his crew is caught between Scylla and Charybdis.
06:57 slef So, yet again, English proves that most of its phrases have no known meaning ;-)
07:00 paul ;-)
07:56 paul kados around ?
07:57 kados paul: yep
07:57 owen Hi paul and kados
07:57 paul "morning to you joshua.
07:57 paul hi owen
07:57 paul did you see my answers on bugzilla ?
07:57 kados looking now
07:57 paul all the bugs affected to me have an answer (& waiting for something from you or someone else)
07:57 paul (I mean blocking one)
07:59 kados paul: for MARC21 Authorities, I'm afraid they have many fields :(
07:59 kados paul: things are similarly logical as with Unimarc
08:00 kados paul: but ... you can have in the same record, different types
08:00 paul all of them in the same authority category ? really strange (& weird)
08:00 kados no ...
08:00 kados you can have 'personal name' field, that also includes a 'title' :-)
08:00 kados for instance
08:00 kados but perhaps I should speak with thd about trimming them into discreet types
08:01 kados perhaps they could be made smaller
08:01 kados thanks for fixing the bug
08:01 kados I still don't understand your updatedatabase comment :-)
08:01 paul ok, I explain once again :
08:02 paul suppose this morning I create a new table, through updatedatabase.
08:02 kados ok
08:02 paul you'll get it when updating your cvs copy. and create it through updatedatabase
08:02 paul in 2 days, I realize a field is missing.
08:02 paul as no official release has been done, I just modify the updatedatabase, in CREATE table part.
08:02 kados right
08:03 kados I understand now
08:03 paul so if you run updatedatabase once again, you'll have nothing done, as the table already exist
08:03 kados right
08:03 kados ok, thanks for clarification
08:03 paul you're welcome
08:03 kados I will test the new basket problem
08:03 kados cool :-)
08:04 kados did you see the hungarian in npl templates?
08:05 paul no, i missed this
08:05 kados I had hoped to have all UN languages for NPL templates too
08:06 kados but WIPO has not finished translating them :(
08:06 kados (and not sure if they still work on this)
08:06 paul you mean all the 7 official languages ?
08:06 kados yes
08:06 paul (that would be nice to have npl in french ;-) )
08:06 kados yep :-)
08:07 paul (anna, from CMI would be very happy with this. if it happends, I think I could switch to npl templates for future support of 2.2.x
08:07 paul that would ease a lot future versions of 2.2.x
08:08 kados in fact, if WIPO won't do it, do you know anyone who would?
08:08 paul nope.
08:08 paul but I could investigate a little (after holidays)
08:08 kados ok
08:08 kados because I have some budget for paying a translator also
08:09 kados but free is better of course :-)
08:10 kados toins: are you there?
08:10 kados toins: don't work too much on searching in HEAD as I just re-wrote the API (again!) :-)
08:10 toins kados, yep
08:11 toins ah...
08:11 kados now it's going to be 100% ccl
08:11 toins ok
08:11 kados it turns out it's too complex to maintain three query syntaxes with one script :-)
08:11 kados (at least for me :-))
08:12 kados so if we want cql and pqf they will be a separate script
08:12 kados hehe
08:12 toins i'll daily syncronize your  commit on head....
08:12 kados toins: wait to sync until next week I think
08:12 kados toins: as it will be volitile for a while :-)
08:12 toins kados, ok
08:12 kados esp today :-)
08:18 kados brb
08:24 thd kados are you back from coffee?
08:34 thd paul: is the problem that you are seeing with MARC 21 authorities where a personal name authority has 100 $a Someone $d born- $t Some title ?
08:34 paul I don't see any problem thd, i just see a very very large authority form.
08:35 paul and in UNIMARC such a form is impossible, for the reason I gave in bugzilla.
08:35 thd paul: you mentioned titles together with personal names
08:36 thd paul: are you finding that titles together with personal names creates a problem?
08:36 paul look at[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1128
08:37 thd paul: yes I have read that bug but it has no example of the MARC 21 authority record which causes the problem
08:37 paul none. it's just that I suggested to remove marc tags to have a lighter form.
08:38 paul in UNIMARC, you can't have 200 & 210 & 230 & 250 on the same authority.
08:38 paul so, when you create your authority framework, you can activate just 1 of them.
08:38 paul that makes really smaller forms !
08:38 thd paul: is it not better to have more robust scripting that can manage to cope with real world records
08:38 paul just, for example, 0xx, 250, 350, 450, 550.
08:39 paul unless i'm mistaken, in unimarc, i'm speaking of real world records !
08:39 thd paul: yes you are
08:39 thd paul: MARC 21 records can be more complex for authorities
08:39 paul i'm speaking of UNIMARC ;-)
08:40 thd paul: yes, but MARC 21 is similar using 1XX instead of 2XX
08:43 paul so, for marc21 you have very very large forms & it was a bad idea to remove the tab system. We could reintroduce them.
08:44 paul (or use OpenCataloger that will solve this kind of problem ;-) )
08:44 thd paul: do you have an example of a MARC 21 authority record which is confusing the Koha code does not work for bug # 1128?
08:45 paul any record, when you tried to duplicate a 0xx field.
08:45 paul but it's fixed now.
08:45 paul the rest was just a SUGGESTION, not related to the bug
08:46 thd paul: oh I understood required to avoid the bug :)
10:54 owen Anyone here know where the new patronimages script is expecting to put stuff?
10:54 owen The script says my $destdir = C4::Context->config('intrahtdocs') . "/patronimages";
10:55 owen intranet-tmpl/patronimages?
10:55 paul owen : if you looked carefully, I said it was not guaranteed to work.
10:55 owen Yes, but I am trying to get it to work
10:56 paul i'm afraid there is a problem with directories, depending on whether you have a CVS or a official directory structure
11:00 owen Does that mean it works for folks who have the official directory structure but not for CVS?
11:01 paul I hope, but am not sure yet
11:25 toins bye world

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