IRC log for #koha, 2006-03-08

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
11:00 pierrick If you knew the speed of Gna! infrastructure :-)...
11:01 paul for CVS it's really faster than sourceforge !
11:02 pierrick How could it be slower?
11:02 pierrick ;-)
11:52 pierrick where do I set the default intranet theme ? (I brutally modified C4::Output::themeLanguage, but it's obviously not the correct method)
11:52 fsouchon hello
11:53 paul pierrick : koha >> parameters >> sytempreferences is your friend
11:53 fsouchon Is it possible to run Koha via a IIS server ?
11:53 paul fsouchon bonjour
11:53 fsouchon bonjour
11:53 paul plein de frenchies aujourdh'ui...
11:53 fsouchon lol
11:53 paul (et même que ca pour tout dire.)
11:53 fsouchon on a uen demande
11:53 fsouchon mais en IIS :/
11:53 paul sauf si kados est levé !
11:53 paul c'est qui "on" ?
11:54 fsouchon ma boite
11:54 fsouchon une SSLL
11:54 fsouchon donc
11:54 fsouchon est-ce possible?
11:54 paul un nom, un nom...
11:54 fsouchon alternancesoft
11:54 fsouchon c nouveau
11:54 paul inconnu au bataillon.
11:54 paul bon, pour répondre à la question :
11:54 fsouchon c né d'une spécialisation de ntsys en opensource
11:54 fsouchon c petit :)
11:54 paul c'est possible, mais ca marche fort mal.
11:54 fsouchon arf
11:54 paul et pas question de mettre un client z3950 dessus
11:54 fsouchon quel est le problème?
11:55 paul là, ca marche po.
11:55 fsouchon non c pour du client web léger
11:55 fsouchon Moz /IE
11:55 paul perl Net::z3950 qui est tout cassé en IIS
11:55 fsouchon oki
11:55 paul je précise :
11:55 fsouchon mais sur client web http
11:55 fsouchon ça passe?
11:55 paul Le client z3950 de Koha permet d'interroger les serveurs z3950 tout autour de la planète.
11:56 paul pour ca, un process perl sur le serveur Koha va interroger les serveurs z3950
11:56 paul le susnommé process utilise Net::z3950 qui est tout cassé sous IIS.
11:56 paul (et compliqué à installer sous windows)
11:56 paul mais windows/apache, ca fonctionne, moyennant de l'huile de coude.
11:57 paul enfin, l'interface bibliothécaire est garantie sous mozilla.
11:57 paul si elle marche sous IE, c'est "par hasard"
11:57 paul (et je ne crois pas qu'il y ait un seul développeur de Koha sous windows... donc ca va pas changer... l'OPAC est testé sous IE, mais en toute fin de développement)
12:03 kados paul: are you still around?
12:03 paul hello joshua
12:03 pierrick hello Joshua
12:03 paul yep, of course (4PM in France)
12:04 kados great
12:04 kados hi pierrick
12:04 kados paul: I've been hacking on authorities
12:04 kados paul: specifically the display
12:04 kados paul:
12:04 kados paul: there is now a authorities heading search on the opac
12:05 kados paul: do a seach for 'NAME' Lewis
12:05 paul men, you rock !
12:05 kados paul: the display for that is hard-coded
12:05 kados paul: it does not use the ISBD style as ISBD is flawed in this instance
12:05 paul you mean the "authorized headings column ?
12:05 kados paul: yep
12:06 pierrick on my working copy of HEAD, many pages produce "Internal Server Error". Only very few log in koha-erro_log, just "Premature end of script headers:, referer: http://plegall:8080/cgi-bin/ko[…]min/". How do I turn on log verbosity?
12:06 kados paul: (what used to be called 'summary')
12:06 fsouchon merci pa
12:06 paul you could use the summary column.
12:06 fsouchon paul,
12:06 paul you're welcome fsouchon
12:06 fsouchon je susi fondamentalement contre M$ et sa saube de IIS
12:06 paul and if you need more help : 04 91 31 45 19
12:06 fsouchon mais là le choix ne nous appartient pas
12:06 kados paul: the problem with ISBD is it can't handle repeatability correctly
12:06 fsouchon merci paul
12:06 paul kados : ???
12:07 kados paul: I will try to explain
12:07 paul (c'est mon business Koha, donc si tu veux qu'on fasse une affaire ensemble ;-) )
12:07 fsouchon tu bosses où?
12:07 kados paul: look at the auth heading for 'Twain'
12:08 kados paul: NAME heading
12:08 kados paul: it has the following entries in MARC:
12:08 paul (je suis le paul poulain co-auteur et Release Manager de Koha ;-) )
12:08 kados paul: 100 $a $c 400 $a $d 500 $a $d
12:09 kados paul: in the ISBD method you can say you want those to display as:
12:09 kados paul: [100a] [100c] [400a] [400d] [500a] [500d]
12:09 kados paul: it will work fine for this example because there is no repeatability
12:10 kados paul: however, if you have a record like the 'Lewis' record:
12:10 kados paul: 100 $a $d $q 400 $a $d 400 $a
12:11 kados paul: the ISBD entry would look like this:
12:11 kados paul: [100a] [100d] [100q] [400a] [400d]
12:11 kados paul: HOWEVER, the display will come out like this:
12:12 kados paul: 100 $a 100 $d 100 $q 400 $a 400 $a 400 $d
12:12 kados paul: [400a] will repeat right next to itself
12:12 kados paul: it does not understand that this is a hierarchy
12:12 paul kados : right.
12:13 paul pierrick : read private channel.
12:13 kados paul: the hard-coded example on will work with all MARC21 authorities records
12:13 kados paul: I could commit it as an alternative without touching 'summary'
12:13 kados paul: with a new syspref for 'authoritiesheadings'
12:14 paul * how will it work if there is no "see also", or "see" ?
12:14 paul * what append if there is another field/subfield that is not in your "template" ?
12:14 kados paul: look at the 'Twain' example
12:15 paul otherwise, I think it's really a good hack if it work for all MARC21. It should work for UNIMARC as well if I don't mind, as, i've been told that authorities are closed between UNIMARC And MARC21
12:15 kados paul: the code follows MARC21 practice for determining the authorized heading (ie 1XX)
12:16 kados paul: and for the see (4XX) and seealso (5XX)
12:16 kados paul: it will append any subfields that exist correctly
12:16 paul so, it's a great feature !
12:16 kados ok ... I'll commit it along with some documentation
12:16 kados sent to koha-devel
12:17 kados there are still some problems with the authorities editor
12:17 paul (that just require a link to be added to fulfill UN requirements ;-) )
12:17 kados paul: :-)
12:18 kados paul: can you modify the auth editor to work like the bib editor (with tabs, etc.)
12:18 kados paul: may require some modif to the db as well ?
12:20 paul modify auth editor to look like bib editor : of course. (except for tabs, that are useless I thought, an authority record is never so long that it needs tabs)
12:20 paul and it don't need any DB modifs unless i'm missing something
12:20 kados paul: for some reason, the default auth records are quite long in fact
12:21 hdl kados : yes
12:21 hdl because they display every field.
12:21 hdl and not only the fields that you needfor your authority.
12:22 kados right
12:22 hdl But paul, with MSC, I have some exemples where you have 5 or 6 subfields on the same page.
12:22 kados in fact, MARC21 authority records can be quite long
12:22 hdl Maybe would it be useful to have 3 or 4 tabs :
12:22 kados for instance, authorities from OCLC
12:23 hdl Main form
12:23 hdl Associate from
12:23 hdl parrallel form
12:23 hdl and rejected form.
12:23 paul ok, ok, I resign ! you won !
12:23 paul (gg)
12:23 kados hmmm
12:23 kados I also have a question about intended uses of the 'frameworks' in authorities
12:23 kados are they to specify different authorities headings?
12:24 kados or different authorities types?
12:24 kados (hint, a type of authority can hold several different headings)
12:25 kados this reference is quite useful:
12:25 kados
12:26 kados specifically this section:
12:26 kados
12:26 kados "All headings are one of the following types: names, name/title combinations, uniform titles, or subjects."
12:26 kados [snip]...
12:26 kados The variable data fields are grouped into blocks according to the first character of the tag, which identifies the function of the data within the field. The type of information in the field is identified by the remainder of the tag. The blocks are:
12:26 kados 0XX  Standard numbers, classification numbers, codes
12:26 kados 1XX Headings (authoritative and reference)
12:26 kados 2XX Complex see references
12:26 kados 3XX Complex see also references
12:26 kados 4XX See from tracings
12:26 kados etc.
12:27 kados there are also content designation in the remainder of the tag
12:28 kados ie X00 == personal names X10 == corporate names, etc.
12:28 kados and finally, there are designations in the 008 fixed field
12:28 kados specifically position 9:
12:28 kados a
12:28 kados
12:28 kados Established heading
12:28 kados b
12:28 kados
12:28 kados Untraced reference
12:28 kados c
12:28 kados
12:28 kados Traced reference
12:29 kados d
12:29 kados
12:29 kados Subdivision
12:29 kados e
12:29 kados
12:29 kados Node label
12:29 kados f
12:29 kados
12:29 kados Established heading and subdivision
12:29 kados g
12:29 kados
12:29 kados Reference and subdivision
12:29 kados paul: so which of these levels of the hierarchy are the 'Thesaurus Frameworks' designed to handle?
12:29 paul wow... /me never asked myself this question ;-)
12:30 kados I think we are very close to supporting full MARC authorities -- closer than I thought
12:30 paul I imagined thesaurus frameworks just to be able to have whet is in the 2nd digit : personal//corporate...
12:31 kados as currently designed, the frameworks are used as 'search points' so they most closely resemble the 'headings' (ie, names, name/title combinations, uniform titles, or subjects. )
12:32 kados at least to the patron looking for items
12:32 kados however, for editing purposes
12:32 kados I'm not sure what function they serve
12:32 kados (I'm quite excited about our level of conformance to MARC in 2.2.6)
12:34 kados (subfield reordering and repeatability within a tag for both authorities editing and biblios editing will be a giant step as well)
12:35 kados finally, the plugins do not seem to work in the auth editor ...
12:35 kados but I have not investigated why
12:38 kados (also, authorities editor seems to truncate the 008 field)
12:39 kados hdl: did you see my bug report on serials creation?
12:39 hdl Seems I read it.
12:39 hdl Can you remid me ?
12:39 hdl remind
12:40 kados serials creation don't work anymore in rel_2_2 :-)
12:41 kados[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1048
12:41 kados hdl: error codes in the report
12:42 pierrick (I made my first commit, yeah :-)
12:42 kados pierrick: woohoo! :-)
12:42 kados pierrick: congrats
12:43 pierrick what a great modification I made !!!
12:43 kados pierrick: what was it? :-)
12:43 pierrick something huge
12:43 kados heh
12:43 pierrick typo fixed: a ";" was missing at the end of Zebra connection retrieving in C4::Search->get_record
12:44 kados ahh ... quite huge in fact :-)
12:45 paul champagne for pierrick 1st commit !
12:45 kados paul: (since you will not be attending the meeting tonight ... do you have any results from your queries into where the non-profit should be located: france, us, or elsewhere?)
12:45 paul[…]lle_champagne.jpg
12:45 kados hehe
12:46 paul my conclusion : it's a very very hard question.
12:46 kados wow very large champagne :-)
12:46 paul for a large commit
12:46 pierrick I can't drink so much ! (I don't drink alcohol at all in reality)
12:47 paul that must be handled carefully, with an international lawyer. I asked a french from mozilla fundation (Tristan Nitot), but didn't get any answer yet
12:47 pierrick Tristan is a very busy person
12:47 paul I suspect it would be easier to do something in US and "localize" it in France, than the opposite.
12:48 paul (I know, but I tried ;-) )
12:49 hdl kados : seems it work for me.
12:49 hdl Did you change something ?
12:50 hdl Or have I forgotten a commit ?
12:51 kados hdl: maybe forgot a commit?
12:51 kados paul: OK ... I will mention this at the meeting
12:52 kados now ... unfortunately I must go :/
12:52 kados as I have several appointments today
12:52 kados paul: hdl: will you be around tomorrow?
12:52 hdl yes.
12:52 kados I would like to discuss authorites and serials in further detail
12:53 kados bye all
12:53 pierrick see you tonight
12:53 kados pierrick++
12:53 paul kados : yep, i'll be here tomorrow
12:57 hdl kados : I donot have the same problem. Is it with npl templates ?
12:57 hdl And it seems thet all my files were committed.
12:59 hdl owen : can you answer ?
13:06 pierrick where are stored members in DB ? I see table "users" was dropped by updatedatabase
13:06 paul borrowers
13:07 pierrick OK
13:08 paul hello owen. kados leaves 10mn ago.
13:09 paul [16:52:09] <kados> now ... unfortunately I must go :/
13:09 paul [16:52:19] <kados> as I have several appointments today
13:09 owen He's probably out conquering North America in the name of Liblime :)
13:10 paul lol
13:10 paul (and he is doing a pretty good job it seems !)
15:21 thd paul: are you there?
15:28 thd I will find you tomorrow paul_away
16:47 kados chris: you here?
16:47 kados chris: I don't have oper privs
16:47 kados chris: so can't change the topic
16:47 chris only pat can
16:47 russ pate-lurk is the only one who does
16:47 mason :)
16:47 kados what!
16:48 kados isn't this a katipo box?
16:48 kados i get it now ... he was first on
16:48 thd kados: I have his address if you still need it
16:48 kados chris: is this running on a katipo box though?
16:49 kados chris: ircd?
16:49 chris hybrid-ircd
16:49 kados if so, you should be able to manually add operators
16:49 chris no
16:49 chris doestn work that way
16:49 kados and reload the config without killing everyone
16:49 kados ahh
16:50 chris you can add irc operators .. but not channel operators
16:50 chris irc operators can ban, gline etc .. but they dont have any special rights in a channel
16:50 kados in Unreal ircd you can add channel opers too
16:51 kados I'm pretty sure anyway ...
16:51 chris ill have to go read hybrid-ircd docs more
16:51 kados well ... not a big deal really
16:51 chris but i couldnt see any way to do it
16:51 kados MEETING AGENDA:
16:52 kados if anyone has stuff to add, please do
16:52 kados in the next ten minutes or so
16:56 thd kados: Have you fixed original cataloguing subfield repeatability in the biblo record editor some where?
16:56 kados thd: the underlying marc structure and routines support it now
16:57 kados thd: but the actual editor hasn't been modified to support it
16:57 hdl hi
16:57 chris hi hdl
16:57 thd kados: So the template work to support the underlying remains?
16:57 kados hi hdl
16:57 chris just quickly before our meeting hdl
16:57 kados thd: we just need some javascript to insert a new subfield below the existing one
16:58 kados thd: and we need some javascript for reordering of subfields within a tag too
16:58 chris for your zebra problem .. how did you create your kohazebra db ?
16:58 kados actually chris ...
16:58 kados I think I know the problem
16:58 kados I suspect it's shdow registers
16:58 chris joshua and I were having this problem
16:58 chris ahh
16:58 kados you have to run a 'commit' after you create a new db
16:58 chris ahh
16:59 chris ill let you answer hdl on the list then
16:59 thd kados: I was forgetting that this was almost a JavaScritp template :)
16:59 kados I ran into the same prob with setting up owen's test site
16:59 kados and that seemed to be the only solution
16:59 chris cool, its good that we know what it is now
16:59 kados yea ... quite a relief when i figured it out
16:59 kados it was driving me batty :-)
17:00 kados AGENDA:
17:00 hdl ow do you run a commit ?
17:00 kados hdl: zebraidx commit
17:00 hdl is that all ?
17:00 kados hdl: so the steps are:
17:00 kados zebraidx create kohadb
17:01 kados zebraidx commit
17:01 kados zebrasrv localhost:2100
17:01 kados yep, that should do it
17:01 kados if not let me know
17:01 hdl ok.
17:01 kados ok ... it's 20:00 GMT
17:01 kados lets get our mtg started ... so first ... roll call
17:01 kados who's here?
17:02 thd still her
17:02 thd s/her/here/
17:02 pierrick I'm her
17:02 kados paul's not going to make it
17:03 kados so first things first
17:03 kados welcome to pierick!
17:03 pierrick thank you Joshua
17:03 kados pierrick even :-)
17:03 kados pierrick did his first commit today
17:03 kados he's a fast learner apparantly :-)
17:03 pierrick (bwouhaha)
17:03 chris :-)
17:03 russ most excellent, welcome aboard pierrick
17:04 kados here's our mtg agenda:
17:04 kados
17:04 kados anything to add before we start taking about perl-zoom?
17:04 thd Koha is intuitive only cvs is not
17:04 pierrick (I'm CVS expert, but not Koha yet)
17:05 kados I'll take that as a no
17:05 kados so perl-zoom integration
17:05 kados chris: want to summarize where we're at with the plugin?
17:06 chris ok
17:06 chris with a few database changes, and copying some scripts and some modules from HEAD to a 2.2.5 koha install, you can get zebra playing nice with 2.2
17:06 kados (I wrote a mail to koha-devel about how to get the plugin working but it hasn't arrived yet)
17:07 chris there is more work to be done, and some more testing ... but its all work useful for 3.0 also
17:08 chris there is no added functionality, BUT searches are now done on zebra
17:09 chris so whats left to be done?
17:09 kados hmmm
17:09 chris well, currently there is no easy way to upgrade from a 2.2 install
17:09 kados right ... so maybe a shell script or two to help with that
17:09 chris ie, it works fine if you install clean, make the db changes and then load your data in
17:10 kados i forwarded the description email to meadville so they should start testing soon
17:10 pierrick personnaly, HEAD installation was not so easy, mainly due to environnement issues
17:10 chris theres still bunches of bugs that need to be ironed out
17:10 thd kados: What is meadville?
17:11 pierrick I mean libyaz/yaz/ZOOM/zebra
17:11 kados thd: one of my clients who sponsored perl-zoom development
17:11 kados pierrick: yep, installation's never been easy in Koha
17:11 kados so chris, what search points are working now?
17:12 kados author, title, subject I think
17:12 kados any others?
17:12 chris isbn
17:12 chris itemtype will when we add it to our collection.abs and
17:12 kados so that's a todo
17:12 chris basically we just have to add more data to collection.abs and
17:13 chris then another elsif in
17:13 chris its very easy
17:13 kados sweet
17:13 kados series title, format, location, barcode, call #, publisher, published between dates
17:13 chris yeah
17:13 kados adding biblios works eh?
17:14 chris yep
17:14 kados and items as well ...
17:14 chris yep
17:14 kados how about deletions?
17:14 kados and edits?
17:14 chris dunno havent tested
17:14 kados k ... two more todos then
17:14 kados what else?
17:14 kados bulkmarcimport and rebuild_zebra been tested with the plugin?
17:14 chris no
17:14 chris if rebuild_zebra works, then that will allow us to upgrade
17:15 chris which would be good
17:15 chris cant see why they wouldnt
17:15 kados anyone think of anything else?
17:15 pierrick I don't
17:15 kados order by
17:15 chris the only thing i can think of
17:16 kados also, stopwords
17:16 thd upgrading is a problem for holdings
17:16 kados for searching
17:16 chris stop words should just keep working
17:16 chris they should be stripped before the search is called
17:16 kados zebra's got a much better system for handling stop words that we should definitely use
17:16 chris 3.0 will
17:17 kados ok ... sounds reasonable
17:17 chris returns .. if we search over branch by zebra
17:17 chris returns has to update zebra
17:17 kados it does?
17:17 chris yes
17:17 chris if we are searching the branch location
17:18 kados to change holdingbranch?
17:18 chris in zebra, then zebra has to know what the currentbranch is
17:18 thd code needs to change to preserve holdings ID from rel_2_2 to 3.0
17:18 chris this isnt upgrading from 2.2 to 3.0 .. its slapping zebra into 2.2 .. but yes that will be needed in the future thd
17:19 kados right
17:19 kados so ... who's gonna work on that task list?
17:19 kados for perl-zoom?
17:19 chris me
17:19 kados woot :-)
17:19 kados ok then we can move on eh?
17:20 kados paul's not here so I think we'll have to skip authorities discussion in detail
17:20 thd kados: I understand authorities fairly deeply
17:20 kados thd: great!
17:20 kados first let me show off what thd and I did
17:21 thd kados: just that most of what I saw was in a compressed time a few months ago
17:21 kados
17:21 kados there is now an authorities search in the OPAC
17:21 kados a NAME search on 'Lewis' or Twain
17:21 thd kados: If you read a little French then you can read authorities :)
17:21 kados will give you a good feel for what the modifications we made will allow
17:22 kados mainly they were display issues
17:22 kados though we also hacked on the authorites editor as well as the framework
17:22 kados I plan to talk at detail tomorrow with paul about some other ideas we have
17:23 thd s/read authorities/read authorities in Koha/
17:23 kados I think we can move on ... unless anyone has something to add to the auth discussion
17:24 hdl I wonder
17:24 thd UNIMARC and MARC 21 authorities are very similar
17:24 kados hdl: I'm listening
17:25 hdl If ppl wil be able to have different summary for 1 auth type or what use we could do for different summary (headings)
17:25 kados in MARC21 all authorized headings are in the 1XX field
17:25 thd There is much less divergence than with the bibliographic standards except for subject subdivisions which are much more troublesome in MARC 21
17:26 kados all see and see also are in 4XX and 5XX respectively
17:26 kados so it's quite easy in fact to categorize the hierarchy correctly for display
17:26 kados there are several other types I'd like to add to the summary
17:26 kados for one, the 'from source'
17:27 thd hdl: what you may see has not been corrected for all template parts
17:27 kados the problem with the old ISBD style of building the summary was that it could not represent the true hierarchy of the record
17:28 thd hdl: the OPAC advanced search pop-up lacks template corrections
17:28 kados $400 $a $b $400 $a $b was represented as $400 $a $a $b $b
17:28 kados thd: I think it's working now for all but author searches
17:29 kados thd: though as we've discussed, the behavior after selection is not as expected
17:29 thd kados: you are a little mistaken about the hierarchy issue in Koha ISBD
17:29 kados thd: please explain
17:30 kados thd: actually ... lets postpone that until after the mtg
17:30 thd kados: you should check my comprehensive MARC 21 ISBD system preference to see how it is done
17:30 kados thd: lets move on to discuss the Koha non-profit
17:30 thd kados: yes please do as I have no idea what that is even
17:31 pierrick thank you thd for asking a brief explanation :-)
17:31 kados I spoke to paul about the non-profit briefly this morning
17:32 kados I'll paste in the conversation
17:32 kados 07:43 < kados> paul: (since you will not be attending the meeting tonight ... do you have any results from your queries into where the non-profit should be located: france, us, or elsewhere?)
17:32 kados 07:44 < paul> my conclusion : it's a very very hard question.
17:32 kados 07:45 < paul> that must be handled carefully, with an international lawyer. I asked a french from mozilla fundation (Tristan Nitot), but didn't get any answer yet
17:32 russ i concur :-)
17:32 kados 07:46 < paul> I suspect it would be easier to do something in US and "localize" it in France, than the opposite.
17:32 kados 07:50 < kados> paul: OK ... I will mention this at the meeting
17:33 kados so ... now I have :-)
17:33 russ :-)
17:33 thd kados: what purpose does the the non-profit have?
17:33 kados thd: several purposes that we can discuss after the meeting
17:33 thd kados: please explain the basic conception behind the non-profit.
17:33 kados in detail
17:34 kados 1. we can go after grants for development works
17:34 kados work even
17:34 kados 2. the non-profit will own the Koha brand as well as copyrights on the code
17:34 kados (think 'Apache foundation'
17:34 kados )
17:34 kados 3. it will provide a measure of protection for companies selling services on Koha
17:35 kados (against suits, etc.)
17:35 chris 2. im not sure about
17:35 russ to me the purpose of the non profit discussion at this stage is to ensure that the project carries on
17:35 chris i think its safer/good for developers own copyrights
17:35 thd kados: Then it should be based or have qualified offices in every country where grant money is available but no country with software idea patents.
17:35 thd :)
17:36 russ i think the details need to be worked on and discussed
17:36 hdl India ?
17:36 hdl :D
17:36 thd chris: assignment is an absolute requirement to upgrade the license
17:36 chris i have no plans to upgrade the license
17:36 kados chris: I disagree, though I'm not a lawyer ... I think the fsf always recommends turning over the copyright of a GPL work to them
17:37 thd s/assignment/copyright assignment/
17:37 kados chris: because any legal disputs over patents then have to be filed against the corp and not the individual
17:37 chris yes, but in order to change the license you must get agreement of all the copyright holders
17:37 thd chris: yes that is the virtue of assignment
17:37 chris so having more copyright holders
17:37 chris is safer
17:38 chris than having one copyright holder
17:38 kados safer for who?
17:38 chris the project
17:38 chris koha
17:38 kados ahh :-)
17:38 kados we had different assumptions then :-)
17:38 thd chris: now the community is small and all assignment is to Katipo so only one entity can upgrade to GPL V3
17:38 chris no its not
17:38 hdl chris : yes, but developers can be at risk.
17:38 chris there is some code copyright to others
17:39 thd chris: which code is that?
17:39 chris plus i dont even want to start on the whole gpl v3
17:39 russ we wouldn't lay claim to writing all the code
17:39 kados thd: is copyright LibLime IIRC
17:39 chris im sure there is some skemotah in there too
17:39 thd russ: claim is not about righting it is about administering the license
17:40 thd s/righting/writing/
17:40 chris what i see the foundation doing
17:40 chris is fulfilling the kaitiaki role
17:40 chris which is currently not being done
17:41 thd what is the meaning of kaitaiki?
17:41 chris guardian
17:42 thd chris what has the kaitiaki done in the past?
17:43 chris they are the central point of contact .. overall guidance, press, etc
17:43 chris it has always been a volunteer role
17:43 chris and it takes a huge amount of work
17:43 kados yep
17:43 russ it also takes a special kind of person
17:44 kados pate did an excellent job while we were transitioning from 1.2 to 2.0
17:44 kados there's a ton of press from that time period
17:44 thd I thought rach was kaitiaki currently
17:44 chris a not for profit allows for funding to be sought to remunerate people
17:44 chris technically she is, but with a hmm 6 week old baby
17:45 chris and a company to look after .. its a pretty unrealistic thought that she can devote the time necessary to the role
17:45 kados right
17:45 chris the way i see it
17:45 chris its a process
17:45 thd Therefore rach has a small kaitiaki assistant :)
17:46 chris 1 get some kinda not for profit organisation
17:46 chris 2 slowly evolve/expand organisations role
17:46 chris i dont think we want/need to do everything at once
17:46 kados good point
17:47 kados so the first step is to get an org going
17:47 russ well i have been looking into that
17:47 kados cool ... what'd you find out?
17:47 russ and the thing is that you need to have a clear idea of what you want to do
17:47 russ i have looked a little bit at us, but mainly nz not for profit setups
17:47 russ but with both you need a constitution
17:48 russ or a definition of purpose
17:48 russ i think we need to work on that first
17:48 kados yep
17:48 russ and then decide where
17:48 kados in the US it's usually just a two-three sentence mission statement
17:48 kados something like:
17:48 kados "to promote the Koha integrated Library system"
17:49 russ i found an example of another software project
17:49 kados doesn't need to be _too_ specific, though I think it would be a good exercise to put down in writing our goals
17:49 russ who have published their cert of incporp
17:49 russ kados: exactley
17:49 kados cool ... got urls?
17:49 russ lets find out if they are even remotley aligned
17:49 russ before we start down the process of creating an entity
17:49 chris i think thats best discussed on the devel list
17:49 russ know you were going to ask that
17:50 russ chris : me
17:50 russ oops
17:50 russ chris: i agree
17:50 thd There are different costs and liability issues for various jurisdictions
17:50 chris i think what has to be decided first, and then where after
17:51 chris so lets start a discussion on what, on the list and see if some nice goals coalesce
17:51 kados sounds good
17:52 kados anything else to discuss on that topic?
17:52 russ no i think that covers it for me
17:52 kados cool
17:52 kados last item on the agenda is the Koha Con
17:52 russ i have some urls on a scrap of paper that i will dig out when i see the post on the list
17:52 kados russ: can you summarize where we're at with that?
17:53 russ Koha Con - um not really :-)
17:53 russ i have some dates from Paul
17:53 kados chris: ?
17:53 russ i had hoped he would be here today
17:53 thd what is Koha Con?
17:53 kados thd: we're organizing a Koha Conference to be held in France in May
17:53 pierrick Koha Con(ference)
17:54 kados Paris in fact
17:54 russ i'll email paul again
17:54 hdl and Marseille
17:54 kados right
17:54 russ cos we really need to get something out to all the lists and the site soon
17:54 chris we have some dates
17:54 kados so maybe hdl should summarize what our plans are thusfar :-)
17:54 kados hdl: can you?
17:54 hdl yes
17:54 pierrick 1 day of general presentation
17:54 pierrick (sorry HDL, go on)
17:55 hdl 1 day gl presentation
17:55 russ sorry i have another meeting, i must go, catch you all later
17:55 hdl 2 days with users
17:55 hdl And 4 days for developers in Marseille
17:55 chris so
17:56 chris may 2 general koha presentation, everyone interested come along
17:56 chris may 3 - koha users - for existing koha users
17:56 chris may 4-7 free time (explore paris)
17:56 hdl They could then gather and share experiences.
17:56 chris may 8-12 developer week in marseille
17:56 pierrick INEO plans to call some french libraries for the first day presentation
17:57 chris may 2 and 3 in paris
17:57 chris cool pierrick
17:58 chris i plan to pay pierrick or hdl or paul with chocolate to sit next to me and translate :-)
17:59 hdl :)
17:59 thd spoken French, I would have no chance
18:00 hdl For users' conf, will be needed.
18:00 hdl But not for dev conf.
18:00 hdl Since we are mostly english speaking persons.
18:00 pierrick Joshua will speak english on day 2
18:01 pierrick and someone will translate to french
18:01 kados heh
18:01 thd Will there be a video archive?
18:02 pierrick video ? we didn't speak about it? It's a good idea. I'll ask my boss.
18:02 kados so basically about 10 days
18:02 kados well ... 11 :-)
18:02 kados plus some time off inbetween
18:03 kados do we need to talk about anything else related to the con?
18:03 kados obvoiusly we need to start promoting it as soon as possible
18:03 chris :)
18:03 thd pierrick: A video archive should be posted somewhere when it is all done unless it is too poorly organised.  It ought to be an enduring archive of good publicity.
18:04 kados thd: good idea
18:04 hdl maybe on
18:04 hdl or ?
18:05 chris yep
18:05 chris or both :)
18:05 hdl :D
18:05 chris we are working on getting a US based mirror for
18:05 kados sweet
18:05 chris should be done soonish
18:05 thd However, someone needs to have the right well tested equipment.  Poor quality sound is poor publicity.
18:06 chris we should get people to transcribe also
18:06 hdl If EMN is involved, thay can have a good auditorium room.
18:06 pierrick MN ?
18:06 chris having the transcriptions of the talks are valuable
18:06 pierrick EMN?
18:06 thd Someone needs to know how to make the equipment work.  Good equipment run by an unprofessional user might as well be poor equipment.
18:06 hdl Ecole des Mines de Nantes (User's conf)
18:07 hdl I shall remind paul.
18:07 pierrick Nantes ??? Paris, you mean
18:07 hdl Sorry EMP.
18:08 hdl you're right pierrick....
18:08 hdl Stupid of me.
18:09 pierrick making great quality video seems to be quite complicated, not so sure it will be possible
18:09 kados anything else to discuss?
18:09 chris not from me
18:10 hdl And transcription is a real job.
18:10 chris yes, its hard work
18:10 kados k ... meeting's closed then ... thanks everyone!
18:10 hdl Nope.
18:10 hdl Thx
18:10 thd pierrick: If you have good sound and tolerable video it can be acceptable.  Poor sound is bad.
18:10 kados I'll post a summary later today
18:10 chris thanks kados
18:12 pierrick thanks Joshua
18:12 thd kados: There is much to discuss.
18:14 thd kados: I worked on the MARC 21 default framework all day yesterday and will be done after another day except for corrections and a proper import script.
18:15 kados thd: excellent
18:15 kados thd: give me just a sec and I"ll be with you
18:15 thd s/corrections/careful proofreading/
18:16 thd s/corrections/careful verification/
18:17 thd In summary still a few more days required.
18:32 thd kados: I have been so careful that I have even found a typo in an official MARC 21 document.
18:32 kados thd: nice :-)
18:32 kados thd: I'm back now
18:32 kados thd: if you need to discuss anything with me
18:33 kados thd: good news about the framework
18:33 kados thd: I'm guessing paul can help us to distribute it in the best way
18:33 kados thd: I'll add that to my list of questions for him tomorrow
18:34 hdl kados : i will have to work hard on authority soon.
18:34 kados thd: can you expand on what you said earlier about ISBD?
18:34 kados hdl: I committed my changes
18:35 kados hdl: so you can see what I did
18:35 kados hdl: the best resources are the following (for marc21)
18:35 kados
18:35 kados
18:35 hdl can you give me details for you bug #10008 paul and I couldnot see it happen.
18:35 kados right ...
18:36 kados you can try it on liblime demo
18:36 kados adding any serial fails
18:36 kados and the errors are in the log as i posted to the bug report
18:37 kados hdl: I tested with default templates even
18:37 kados hdl: (btw: are there any changes to make to a template to support serials itemization?)
18:38 hdl SURE!!!!
18:38 kados hdl:[…]
18:38 hdl there are.
18:38 kados hdl: try with default templates
18:38 kados supplier 1 is EBSCO
18:39 kados hdl: use 9903 as bib record (magazine)
18:40 hdl can you give the name of the serials ?
18:40 kados any search for 'magazine'
18:40 kados try 'american' with itemtype magazine
18:41 thd kados: The existing Koha ISBD model can represent repeated fields acceptably but has a problem with repeated subfields within the field where the repeated subfields are not consecutive.
18:41 hdl internal server error?
18:42 kados hdl: did you get an internal server error?
18:42 kados hdl: I just attempted and it seems to have worked
18:42 hdl yes.
18:42 kados hdl: when did you get it?
18:42 hdl I tried Iowa journal.
18:42 kados hdl: [Mon Mar 06 13:39:36 2006] [error] [client] HTML::Template->output() : fatal error in loop output : HTML::Template::param() : attempt to set parameter 'itemlocationloop' with a scalar - parameter is not a TMPL_VAR! at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/HTML/ line 2963, referer:
18:42 kados [Mon Mar 06 13:39:36 2006] [error] [client]  at /var/www/​t/cgi-bin/bull/ line 160, referer:
18:42 thd kados: Orderliness is not read from the record in the existing Koha ISBD model it is instructed in the Koha ISBD configuration supplied.
18:42 kados [Mon Mar 06 13:39:36 2006] [error] [client] Premature end of script headers:, referer:
18:43 kados thd: right
18:43 kados thd: I don't think it can represent repeated tags acceptably either
18:43 hdl Strange.
18:44 hdl Are your templates up to date ?
18:44 thd kados: so you can make 400 $a $d 400 $a $d work
18:44 kados thd: you'll have to show me how
18:44 kados hdl: I'll check
18:45 kados hdl: try now
18:45 kados hdl: (I updated all templates in default/en)
18:45 kados hdl: (but no changes were listed)
18:45 thd kados: However, 260 $a $b  $a $b comes out as 260 $a $a $b $b
18:46 kados thd: do you have an example of the previous one working?
18:46 kados hdl: could french templates be different than english templates?
18:47 thd kados: yes just look at any record with multiple repeated subject fields using the ISBD configuration that I supplied to you
18:47 hdl I work on english templates.
18:47 kados hdl: strange then
18:48 hdl and paul has the same behavior as I.
18:48 hdl it works.
18:49 hdl would you send me your and statecollection.tmpl ?
18:49 kados sure
18:49 hdl henridamien at koha-fr dot org
18:49 thd hdl: Does it work with the latest rel_2_2 or are you and paul using the 2.2.5 release?
18:49 kados hdl: in fact, they are stock cvs
18:49 kados hdl: i will delete and reload from cvs
18:50 hdl thd: we are both on latest rel_2_2
18:57 thd kados: Your ISBD system preference is empty.  I will fill it
18:58 hdl kados : I know I first had this error when I first commited. But should have been fixed for more than one week now.
18:59 hdl The first version I commited had to be worked upon.
19:01 kados hdl: I deleted and grabbed latest cvs copies
19:01 kados hdl: try to add the serial again please
19:04 thd kados: you can see both the success and the failure of the Koha ISBD configuration in this record[…] .
19:06 thd kados: This record has multiple publishers in 260 $a $b $a $b $c repented as 260 $a $a $b $b $c.
19:08 thd Which is unavoidable in the current Koha ISBD design.
19:08 kados right
19:09 thd kados: However it does have repeated subjects correct.
19:09 kados it's possible the ISBDdetail code works better than the ISBD code that was included in the authorities display
19:09 kados I haven't looked at it
19:11 thd kados: you are missing the field separator from the code that you had used
19:14 thd kados: In either case the Koha ISBD design needs to change to read field and subfield order from the record rather than from the supplied configuration.
19:18 thd kados: ISBD configuration should inform the system only which fields and subfields to return at what points as well as what joining punctuation to use.  The order of repeated fields and any specified intra field subfields should be whatever order appears in the record while now it is the order that they appear in the ISBD configuration specified.
19:20 thd kados: I fixed authorities author searching from the LibLime demo OPAC for the advanced search pop-up last night.   Maybe you missed my announcement in the log.
19:21 kados thd: I did notice that though I'm not sure what you did ... could you expand?
19:22 thd kados: I had meant to make the change while you were still awake but was then distracted when I realised that you may be reading too much from a non-working design.
19:24 thd kados: All I did was add all the author subfields contained in existing 100 authority records.
19:26 thd kados: So I added 100d which had been missing from the see also for 100 $a in the default bibliographic framework.
19:28 thd kados: the default bibliographic framework already had 100q.  I added whatever I could within 255 bytes to the see also for 100 $a in the default MARC bibliographic framework.
19:32 thd kados: The completed default MARC 21 bibliographic framework will increase the size from 255 to marc_subfield_structure.seealso VARCHAR(2047).
19:34 thd kados: That is needed to support seealso searching of all relevant subfields from all related fields.
19:37 thd kados: are you still there?
19:42 kados thd: sorry ... got disconnected
19:43 kados thd: so the 255 byte limit for the 'search also' feature is a problem, eh?
19:43 thd kados: I have fixed it.
19:43 kados thd: do we need to increase the size of that field?
19:43 thd kados: Yes
19:43 kados thd: I'll bring that up to paul as well tomorrow
19:44 thd kados: of course I have not fixed it at LibLime because I do not have that level of access.
19:44 kados right
19:44 kados thd: what was involved in fixing it ... do you have the SQL?
19:45 thd kados tests my instant SQL  coding
19:45 kados :-)
19:46 kados thd: don't you have it in your mysql client history?
19:46 thd ALTER `marc_subfield_structure.seealso` VARCHAR(2047);  or something like that
19:47 thd kados: I have been dro[pping the table and recreating it from an SQL file filled with insert statements.
19:49 thd kados: I could find the confirmed exact answer to your question in a minute but I did it differently,
19:49 kados right
19:49 kados tell me what you have in your SQL file
19:49 kados and I'll commit it to rel_2_2
19:52 thd kados: `marc_subfield_structure`(`seealso` varchar(2047) default NULL ); is in there but that is not the code you would want ot commit.
19:57 thd kados: it has been changed to type text in rel_2_2.  What are the limitations on text?
19:58 kados dunno
20:00 thd kados: here is the ALTER command:  ALTER TABLE `marc_subfield_structure` CHANGE `seealso` `seealso` VARCHAR( 2047 ) NULL DEFAULT NULL;
20:01 kados I'll ask paul whether text or varchar would be better there
20:01 kados thd: thanks for the command :-)
20:02 thd kados: varchar was the original when I had started working on it.
20:04 thd kados: a rel_2_2 update must have changed it unless my dump was constrained for compatibility with multiple versions of MySQL.
20:05 thd kados: Did you see my private messages from an hour and a half ago?
20:07 thd kados: We do not have to discuss the possibility at this moment but there is a time limitation factor.
20:09 kados thd: I didn't see it
20:10 kados thd: time limitation factor?
20:16 thd kados: did you see my messages now?
20:17 kados thd: no ... strangely
20:17 thd kados: Are you connecting from an unusual place?
20:18 kados thd: no
20:18 thd kados: have you changed your IRC client configuration?
20:18 kados nope
20:18 thd kados: Do you have private messages blocked?
20:18 kados nope
20:18 kados :-)
20:18 thd kados: Or me blocked :)
20:19 kados nope :-)
20:19 kados thd: just sent you a private message ... could you see it?
21:06 thd so the bibliographic framework design does not have a problem but it does have inadequacies for expressing what is mandatory.
21:07 thd kados: there is no way to express mandatory if applicable.
21:08 thd kados: So that some 1XX is always filled.  Any cataloguer worth his pay understands that.
21:09 thd kados: However, issues outside of fill some 1XX may be more likely missed accidentally.
21:10 thd kados: Also, as you correctly point out it would be helpful to add a check for 6XX as good to have even if not mandatory under some LC standard.
21:11 kados what about the 'mandatory' flag?
21:11 kados (phone call)
21:12 thd kados: It should also be possible to create incomplete records that require further editing.
21:13 thd kados: signify when your are off phone he said as he stepped out of the room for a moment.
21:35 thd kados: so If incomplete records were submitted there should be a warning to accept an incomplete record instead of refusal, although I do not remember what the message is now when leaving out something mandatory.
21:36 thd kados: mandatory needs gradations at some point.
21:37 thd kados: more fine grained aspects for individual indicator and fixed field positions
21:39 thd kados: there is something that ought to be changed now for the frameworks though.
21:39 kados what's that?
21:39 thd kados: a new column is needed for obsolete fields and subfields
21:40 kados could you expand on what those are?
21:42 thd kados: a modest code change in a few places would allow legacy fields and subfields which should no longer be used to create current records but still bring them up in the correct place if filled with legacy data.
21:43 thd kados: changes over time have moved the correct place to encode data from one place to another.
21:44 thd kados: Libraries who cared and had money sent their records off for conversion to the newer format.
21:46 thd kados: However, some obsolete fields were not even moved but simply abandoned with changes in AACR.  Those fields still have data of value if they are populated.
21:48 thd kados:  There tends to be a correlation between libraries with money and libraries with the oldest MARC records but there is a big gap where records may have been copy catalogued by poor libraries from rich libraries with old records and then never updated at the poor libraries.
21:49 thd kados: so my first purpose with the default frameworks has been to ensure that users do not loose data that they already have.
21:50 thd kados: However, the options to support visibility of content are very limited in the Koha frameworks.
21:51 kados that's true
21:52 thd kados: No one wants their record editor forms supplying them with many obsolete fields and subfields merely to support the small but valuable set of records that use obsolete fields.
21:52 kados good point
21:53 kados but I think that's a version 3.0 discussion
21:53 kados paul and I will be working on a new XUL-based design
21:53 thd kados: Although, I suspect that in the real world at least some obsolete subfields do not have small use.
21:53 kados so when we're ready to spec that out we'll definitely discuss it with you
21:53 kados my goal with 2.2.6 is to be MARC compliant
21:54 kados I'm not as concerned about usability
21:54 kados because the current design is deficient
21:54 kados and it's not worth spending too much energy patching a sinking ship :-)
21:55 thd kados: But this is a problem now because the same column that is used to place the subfields into the correct tab for viewing in the right sequence is also the same one for setting them to not viewable.
21:56 thd kados: I do have an experiment to conduct with the hide option but that certainly does not help visibility..
21:57 thd kados: The values for subfield management are -1 - 10.
21:58 thd kados: -1 preserves content but hides, 0-9 are tabs, and 10 is the items tab.
22:01 thd kados: I thought of changing behaviour by extending the value range so that obsolete would be shown only if present where -7 is obsolete for tab 7 but then -0 for tab 0 is not a numeral.
22:01 thd kados: Therefore another column is required.
22:03 thd kados: I do like paul's frameworks very much.  I see no reason to abandon them for 3.0.  They might be extended or transformed.
22:04 kados why do we need another colum?
22:04 kados why can't we just extend it as you propose?
22:05 thd kados: Because we have no column to support hide if empty because this field/subfield is obsolete but show if data present.
22:06 thd kados: The problem is that -0 is the same number as 0 for obsolete fields/subfields that should appear in tab 0.
22:07 kados thd: it should automatically hide if empty in the record display
22:08 thd kados: I am also concerned with the record editor being filled with obsolete fields and subfields.
22:10 thd kados: No one will want those in the way if empty but everyone will want to see them when editing old records if they have content.
22:10 kados we could create a tab '11'
22:10 kados for obsolete fields
22:11 thd kados: Then they would not appear in the correct logical place in relation to the rest of the record in either the record editor or the OPAC.
22:12 thd kados: If I am not mistaken tab assignment sets order of appearance even in the OPAC MARC view.
22:13 thd kados: and their is not even a tab 10 for the record editor.  Tab 10 is for items.
22:14 kados thd: i think it's ok if they don't appear in the logical place
22:15 kados thd: the goal is compliance, not usability for 2.2.6
22:15 kados thd: there could easily be a tag 11 for the record editor
22:15 thd kados: Adding a new column and modifying code to support it is also much less coding than managing than whatever would be needed to extend the original column.
22:15 kados thd: it would not take much time to add that
22:15 kados thd: maybe ... I will bring it up to paul tomorrow
22:16 thd kados: new column is much less time I believe.
22:16 thd kados: Especially as until something is added to support it nothing would break.
22:17 thd kados: another problem is the lack of any way to separate OPAC from patron visibility.  There are fields and subfields which are private or non-public either absolutely or if an indicator is set.
22:18 kados I think if you leave out the OPAC description for a given subfield it will not display but I haven't tested that theory
22:19 thd kados: Anonymous donor may stop giving if his name appears in the OPAC as one example of the consequence.
22:20 thd kados: But that information can never be entered in the record editor in the first place or changed for existing records if the subfield is hidden.
22:22 thd kados: The possibility that a blank value for the OPAC label hiding the content is interesting.
22:23 thd kados: That does not cover the equally common case where the indicator is supposed to be read to determine privacy.
22:24 kados thd: we need to account for that I agree
22:25 kados thd: if you write a brief description of the feature and what indicators use it i will gladly code it
22:25 thd kados: I will definitely experiment with a blank OPAC value for the subfields labelled non-public.
22:25 thd s/value/label/
22:26 thd that would at least cover the explicit case if it works.
22:29 thd kados: Another framework column would also be good for collapse or hide in JavaScript editor unless explicitly opened or expanded.
22:30 thd kados: This would be for the uncommonly used but occasionally needed fields and subfields.
22:31 kados right, that woudl be nice
22:32 thd kados: No one will be happy with a default framework that preserves all data but always has uncommonly needed fields and subfields in the way.
22:34 thd kados: As we discussed before, the current option is only to hide them where they cannot be recalled without changing the framework rather than as the need arises for the material being catalogued.
22:36 thd kados: Another great inefficiency I have seen with the record editor is that context is not preserved when adding repeated fields.
22:37 thd kados: If I add a second 650 I am thrown back to the beginning of tab 0.
22:38 thd kados: This is usually manged with internal anchors while the page refreshes.
22:40 thd kados: I do not know what extra state information would be needed to preserve tab location in JavaScript.  I have never looked at the record editor code.
22:41 thd kados: A page refresh is also required and absent to change labels after reordering subfields.
22:42 kados I've got to head out
22:42 kados thanks for your explainations thd
22:42 thd kados: OK
22:42 kados I'll discuss this with paul tomorrow
22:43 thd circa what time if I rise :)
22:43 thd ?
22:43 kados undetermined
22:43 kados but it will probably be a pmesg
22:43 kados as we may discuss money things :-)
22:43 kados ok ... I've really got to go now
22:44 kados ciao
22:44 thd good evening kados
22:45 thd kados: you should try to keep the generally useful things on the open channel as I just did for logbbot
00:17 thd chris: I have found a problem on #koha
00:17 thd chris: are you there?
00:18 thd or anyone from Katipo who knows the IRC system
00:18 Jo Mason: can you come to hlt
00:18 Jo testing your bug fix..
00:19 thd russ si: do you know the IRC system?
00:20 thd the one running #koha?
00:24 thd sorry chris russ si: I had used syntax that was not parsed correctly
00:24 thd I was certain that I had always done it the same way but I must be mistaken
00:25 russ thd: so you are all good now?
00:26 thd russ: yes sorry to have disturbed you with user error issuing IRC commands
00:27 thd russ: unless I am now living in an alternate universe :)
00:29 thd back in the correct universe now
00:39 russ thd :-)
04:27 hdl kados : I tried npl and default templates :
04:29 hdl npl donot propose data input for barcodes or branches and so on and so forth...
04:31 hdl And default templates ends in Internal server error.
04:31 hdl I shall try and delete mine that works, to see if I get the same error.
04:37 thd hdl: Is kados awake?
04:37 hdl thd: seems not.
04:37 hdl But I tried anyway.
04:37 hdl :)
04:39 thd hdl: he was awake long past now Friday night and Saturday morning when he could not stop working on authorities but he is not as crazy as me ordinarily.
04:48 russ hi hdl
04:48 hdl hi russ
04:48 russ do you know if paul is going to be around soon?
04:48 hdl in about half an hour.
04:48 russ cool
05:00 osmoze hello
05:41 paul russ, i'm here.
05:42 russ hi paul
05:42 hdl hello osmoze
05:42 russ its census day in nz
05:42 russ just finishing my form :-)
05:44 russ the conference - how is that being organised?
05:44 paul census day ?
05:44 paul throw the questions.
05:45 russ
05:45 russ ok here we go
05:45 russ do people need to pay? do they need to register?
05:46 russ this is for the events on the tuesday and the weds
05:46 paul are you speaking of the day for public demo (2-3) or the developper meeting ?
05:46 russ public
05:46 paul ok
05:46 paul we think we will ask for a small fee (something like EUR15) for the 1st day.
05:47 paul librarians will be OK to pay a small fee, and, once they have pay, they come. Otherwise, we may have zillions of registering, but only a few people.
05:47 russ yep
05:47 russ it is a good idea to ask for a small amount
05:48 paul for day 3, we will probably ask a little bit more. the idea being to have some funds to give to the future NPO. that could be something like EUR50
05:48 paul (May, 3 I mean. It's day 2)
05:48 paul ;-)
05:48 russ yep
05:49 russ are you thinking of hiring a professional conference organisor - or doing it yourselves?
05:50 paul we will do it ourself (Ineo & me)
05:50 russ bit of background: i have lost count of the number of conference websites we have done for vairous things
05:50 russ we = katipo
05:50 paul we already have a room (= ENSMP, still to be confirmed, but seems OK)
05:51 russ great
05:51 paul we have a mail address for registering.
05:51 russ ok cool - so if was to do a form on the site, it could submit to that address?
05:51 paul Ineo will manage mailings to invite pple widely (they already have the coordinates of the 1000 main libraries in France + we have 2-3 major mailing lists)
05:51 paul yep.
05:52 paul and Ineo will manage registering too.
05:52 russ right - so they will take the payments?
05:52 paul I just manage the "who speaks of what"
05:52 paul payments : still undefined.
05:52 russ ok
05:53 paul (if osmoze reads this thread, he will see very interesting things. pls jean sebastien, don't speak publicly of this yet. announcement in a week or 2)
05:53 russ ah
05:54 paul for the developper meeting, we already have all what is needed :
05:55 paul * the room (in CMI, a french library of mathematics, in Marseille, in one of Marseille University)
05:55 paul * a good net connexion
05:55 paul That's enough.
05:55 chris :)
05:55 chris and a cafe nearby ?
05:55 paul + some restaurants close. Just have to check if we can get some vegetarian food.
05:56 paul hello chris.
05:56 chris hi paul
05:56 paul I'll take care of coffee, stil have to speak with anna on those details.
05:56 paul we also should have 2 librarians :
05:56 paul * pascale nalon, from ENSMP
05:57 paul * Anna W..., CMI librarian (she's polish, her name is a nightmare for a frenchy, that's why I write W...)
05:57 russ :-)
05:57 chris :-)
05:57 chris ive been practising henri damien
05:57 osmoze ok paul :)
05:57 chris paul is quite easy :-)
05:58 paul lol (and available is most languages i've been told)
05:58 chris yep, its pretty common
05:59 paul russ : another question about the meeting ?
05:59 russ umm
05:59 russ it sounds like it is still a bit loose
05:59 russ as in loosely organised at the moment
06:03 chris paul, when its a little bit closer to the time, do you think we could/should contact some media in paris and marseille, see if they are interested
06:03 chris ?
06:04 paul I think/hope Ineo will do. They plan to do something with specialized press at least (there are something like 5 librarian oriented news papers)
06:04 chris cool
06:05 paul I'm not sure TV and non-specialised press could be interested.
06:07 chris i would think only small non-specialised papers might be .. if you have them (here we have a few small free newspapers, who run pretty much any articles people send them)
06:07 chris but the big papers are only interested if its something big, or new
06:10 russ paul - i will start making some pages to go up on that can be used for reference
06:10 russ and promoting the event
06:11 russ is that ok with you?
06:12 paul yep
06:13 russ cool - i'll use the info i already have, and i will forward you a login to the cms for the website so you can see it before it goes live
06:13 russ but now i need to go to bed
06:13 russ catch you later
06:14 paul have a good night
07:57 thd paul: are you there?
07:57 paul leaving for lunch in 10mn...
07:58 thd paul: you mean I have ten minutes to ask you something before you leave for lunch :)
07:58 thd ?
07:58 paul yep.
07:58 paul but i'll be back in one hour and a half.
07:58 paul (say in 2, to be sure)
07:59 thd paul: authority types are stored in two tables.
07:59 thd auth_header and auth_types.
08:00 paul yes
08:00 thd paul: what is the function of each. Why two tables.
08:00 thd ?
08:00 paul auth_types just contain authority definition (head of structure)
08:00 paul 1 row for 1 auth type
08:01 paul auth_header contains 1 row for each auth type.
08:02 thd paul: would that same content not function in one table?
08:02 paul nope.
08:02 thd paul: I miss something.
08:02 paul (look at the DB scheme, on
08:03 paul auth_type : PERSONAL NAMES
08:03 pierrick I'm looking for sampledata compatible with current HEAD
08:03 pierrick misc/sampledata-1.2 does not work, due to DB scheme modification
08:03 paul auth_header : authority number 1353968, that is a PERSONAL NAMES
08:03 pierrick (hello, by the way :-)
08:03 paul authority number 1244535, that is also a PERSONAL NAMES
08:03 paul hello pierrick
08:05 thd paul: Are there also two tables for bibliographic frameworks?
08:05 paul yep :
08:06 paul biblio_framework and marc_biblio
08:06 paul (I mean in 2.2.x, as marc_biblio will die in 3.0. and the link to framework will be/is stored in biblio table)
08:07 thd paul: So you mean the framework types could be stored in one instead of two tables :) ?
08:08 paul nope.
08:08 paul the framework attached to a biblio is in marc_biblio in 2.2
08:09 paul as this table is dropped, we have to put it somewhere else.
08:09 paul that will be in biblio !
08:09 thd paul: OK now the function is clear.
08:13 thd enjoy your lunch paul
08:24 pierrick Paul: do you have sample data to give me ?
08:25 paul mmm... c'est sur channel privé !
08:26 pierrick bon alors je quitte irssi que je ne maîtrise pas du tout, je reviens avec Xchat, c'est plus intuitif
09:41 osmoze c est bien mieux xchat non pierrick  ;)
09:50 kados hi guys
09:51 kados pierrick: I'd suggest you load in data elements separately so you can get familiar with the process
09:51 pierrick (xchat, ça dépanne, mais je compte bien maîtriser irssi)
09:51 pierrick hi joshua
09:51 kados pierrick: so you could, for instance, create a CSV file with some fake borrower information
09:51 kados and use LOAD DATA INFILE to  load it in
09:52 paul hello kados. nice sleep ?
09:52 pierrick paul gave me a dump of a 2.2 installation from EMN (Ecole Mines Paris)
09:52 paul full of authorities dreams ?
09:52 kados you could also obtain some MARC and use bulkmarcimport ...
09:52 kados paul: yes in fact :-)
09:52 kados pierrick: that'll work too :-)
09:53 kados paul: so I actually have several questions
09:53 kados paul: looks like thd may have already asked some of them ...
09:53 paul and i think it's better when starting : he will have enough problems with HEAD bugs to avoid DB ones ;-)
09:53 paul throw them, i'm listening
09:53 kados my first question is whats' the best way for thd to distribute the new MARC21 bib framework he's been working on?
09:54 kados In fact, what is the best way to upgrade a framework (bib or auth)
09:54 paul a sql dump of the 2 tables. then i'll include them as replacement in marc_datas/sql/marc21_en
09:55 paul delete * from marc_*_structure where frameworkcode='';
09:55 paul then mysql -uX -p XXX <new_framework.sql
09:55 paul (I suppose the framework is the default one.
09:55 paul )
09:55 kados that first query scares me :-)
09:55 kados yes, default
09:56 kados ok good ... next questions
09:56 kados the current size of the 'search also' field is 255 chars
09:56 paul (i've a quick question too)
09:56 kados (or actually, it might be of type 'text' now)
09:56 paul it could be TEXT, I agree
09:57 kados ok ... what is the upper limit on TEXT?
09:57 kados it should be enough I think
09:57 kados your turn to ask ... :-)
09:58 paul I don't understand what LabelMARCView does
09:58 paul (your new systempref)
09:58 kados right ...
09:58 paul (i've another question in fact, so 2. But the 2nd one is not a quick one ;-) )
10:00 kados LabelMARCView: the previous code for display of MARC in OPAC results
10:00 kados was customized for your clients to be non-standard IIRC
10:00 kados so for example
10:00 kados say you have two 650 tags like this:
10:00 kados 650 $a $b $c
10:00 kados 650 $a $b $c
10:01 kados your clients prefer the MARC labels to look like this:
10:01 kados 650
10:01 kados a
10:01 kados b
10:01 kados c
10:01 kados a
10:01 kados b
10:01 kados c
10:01 kados but my clients prefer:
10:01 kados 650
10:01 kados a
10:01 kados b
10:01 kados c
10:01 kados 650
10:01 kados a
10:01 kados b
10:01 kados c
10:01 paul ah, OK got it !
10:01 kados make sense?
10:02 paul my second question then ?
10:02 kados sure
10:02 paul or another one from you ?
10:02 kados ok ... one from me :-)
10:02 kados what is the 'itemcallnumber' setting in sysprefs?
10:03 paul it's used to define the DEFAULT biblio subfield that will be automatically reported as itemcallnumber when creating a new item.
10:03 paul for example : 676a if a library has physical shelves based on dewey
10:03 kados why is it defined in sysprefs rather than the MARC framework?
10:04 paul it's the default value. Thus, when you edit an item, it's automatically filled with 676$a, but you can overwrite it.
10:04 paul because it was simple, quick & not too dirty.
10:04 kados ok
10:04 kados your turn :-)
10:04 paul (+ I don't think we need a different value for each framework)
10:04 paul (but maybe i'm wrong)
10:05 kados (only if a library uses more than one classification system I suspect)
10:05 kados (this may apply to NPL for instance)
10:05 paul should we call the next release 2.2.6 or 2.4.0 ? because there are a LOT of new features, even if the DB schema did not change.
10:05 kados (they use Dewey for non-fiction and a internal classification for Fiction)
10:05 paul ok, for NPL, it would make sense to have itemcallnumber based on framework.
10:06 kados 2.4.0 perhaps
10:06 kados it's ok with me to be 2.4.0
10:06 paul i'm afraid we could introduce new bugs with what is in rel_2_2, thus I think it's better to move the 2nd digit to warn the libraries.
10:06 paul ok, i'll write something to koha-devel.
10:06 kados true
10:06 paul expect it in april in your mailbox ;-)
10:07 kados heh
10:07 paul (unless savannah goes faster suddenly)
10:07 kados I hope so
10:07 kados I have two questions left ... both quite long
10:07 kados shorter one first:
10:08 kados I'm having trouble with rel_2_2 serials
10:08 kados sometimes I cannot save a newly created serial
10:08 kados[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1048
10:08 paul I saw (if you speak of adding a serial)
10:08 kados I also don't understand how to add an item with a serial
10:08 paul but i'm like hdl : I never had this problem.
10:08 kados right ...
10:09 hdl kados
10:09 hdl did you update C4/*
10:10 kados I will check right now
10:10 hdl (I don't remember which C4 file I modified to add serialsadditem or
10:11 hdl (paul : kados problem results in a 550 Internal server error)
10:11 kados I just did cvs update from C4 dir ...
10:11 kados no reported updates
10:11 hdl Really Strange.
10:11 kados hdl: maybe I need to run updatedatabase?
10:12 hdl you may try.
10:12 kados I run it now again
10:12 paul there is a new systempref, so maybe yes.
10:12 hdl But normally, if you have serialsadditems
10:12 kados I do
10:13 hdl The problem comes from a failure in HTML::Template output calculation
10:13 kados what version of HTML::Template are you running?
10:13 hdl He says we are passing him a scalar in place of loop.
10:14 kados right
10:14 kados $ updater/updatedatabase
10:14 kados connected to your DB. Checking & modifying it
10:14 kados  Alter encoding in marc_breeding
10:14 kados synch'ing borrowers
10:14 kados synch'ing items
10:14 kados synch'ing biblio
10:14 kados synch'ing biblioitems
10:14 kados Checking for data required in table userflags...
10:15 kados Checking for data required in table systempreferences...
10:15 kados done
10:16 hdl 2.7
10:16 hdl (HTML::Template version)
10:17 kados hmmm ... I just added a subscription and it seems to have worked
10:17 kados hdl: can you try adding the one you did yesterday?
10:17 kados (IIRC yesterday, I could add one but your's failed)
10:18 kados (suggesting the problem is not always present)
10:18 kados btw: 'Waited' should be 'Waiting' in english
10:19 kados (in Subscription summary, 'end date' is missing)
10:19 hdl can you show me the logs ?
10:19 hdl Internal server error
10:19 kados did it fail ... shoot
10:20 kados [Tue Mar 07 05:17:39 2006] [error] [client] HTML::Template->output() : fatal error in loop output : HTML::Template::param() : attempt to set parameter 'itemlocationloop' with a scalar - parameter is not a TMPL_VAR! at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/HTML/ line 2963, referer:[…]?subscriptionid=3
10:20 kados [Tue Mar 07 05:17:39 2006] [error] [client]  at /var/www/​t/cgi-bin/bull/ line 160, referer:[…]?subscriptionid=3
10:20 kados [Tue Mar 07 05:17:39 2006] [error] [client] Premature end of script headers:, referer:[…]?subscriptionid=3
10:20 kados hdl:[…]?subscriptionid=3
10:21 kados hdl: is that the one you added?
10:21 hdl This is the one I TRIED to add.
10:21 hdl Never could get onto the page.
10:21 kados strange that it still shows up ...
10:22 hdl would you make me available a dump of your base and a tarball of your install ?
10:22 kados sure
10:24 kados is the install tarball (well, it is the cvs repo the install is symlinked too)
10:25 kados dumping db now
10:26 kados gzipping
10:27 kados hdl: how do I add items to a subscription?
10:27 kados (while I wait)
10:28 hdl In default template :
10:28 kados is the database
10:30 hdl you have a new line in statecollection page :
10:31 kados same error
10:31 kados interesting
10:31 kados why does this:
10:31 kados[…]?subscriptionid=4
10:31 kados statecollection page does not fail
10:31 kados but this:
10:32 kados[…]?subscriptionid=3
10:32 kados it does ... !
10:32 hdl Numbered   planned for   Status   Notes
10:32 hdl Issue
10:32 hdl Callnumber Barcode  branch itemstatus location
10:32 kados wait ... I'm wrong
10:32 kados it fails on both :/
10:32 kados (i clicked on the wrong button)
10:32 hdl unfortunately
10:32 kados hdl: ahh ... I haven't seen this page yet because of Internal Server Error :-)
10:33 kados paul: while hdl sorts out serials problems ...
10:33 hdl tarbal ?
10:33 kados paul: have time for my last question?
10:33 paul yep
10:33 hdl ok
10:33 kados hdl: the db is a gziped mysqldump
10:34 kados paul: ok ... so my last question is actually several questions
10:34 kados related to authorities
10:34 kados some of them I asked yesterday
10:34 kados for instance: what is the role of the 'framework'?
10:35 paul define the MARC templates, for biblio editing
10:35 paul I use framework in biblios.
10:35 paul and authtype for authorities
10:36 kados right, but they are also used as search points in authorites if I'm not mistaken
10:37 paul mmm... I don't see what you're speaking of.
10:37 kados a search point means that when you go to search
10:37 kados you have an option to search: 'titie', author, subject
10:37 kados in authorities search, you have search points defined as the frameworks
10:38 kados so if you have NAME, SUBJECT, TITLE ...
10:38 kados the user must select one before performing the search
10:38 kados the problem is ... if I understand correctly
10:38 kados in MARC21 there are only 4 valid search points
10:39 kados names, name/title combinations, uniform titles, or subjects.
10:39 kados (also called the headings)
10:40 kados but I _think_ there are potentially many more editing frameworks desired
10:40 kados but as I'm not a cataloger I can't be 100% sure
10:42 kados paul: does that make more sense?
10:42 paul yes, but I don't see where the problem is
10:42 paul (or am not sure to see)
10:43 kados ok ... we can skip that one :-)
10:43 kados until I have more information
10:43 paul In unimarc we have a little bit more search points, as, for authors, you may have author PERSONAL NAME or CORPORATE name.
10:43 paul ok, let's delay this question
10:43 kados in MARC21 PERSONAL NAME and CORPORATE NAME are grouped within NAME
10:43 kados for _searching_
10:43 kados but not for _editing_
10:44 kados but we will skip for now :-)
10:44 kados I have read through both and
10:45 kados I cannot understand fully the whattodo hash
10:45 kados I will paste in each element with the included explaination then explain my question:
10:45 kados \ttaglist : the list of MARC tags using this authority
10:46 paul (bulkauthimport is really outdated & probably don't work at all)
10:46 kados does this mean the list of bib MARC tags that this authority will fill?
10:47 paul => yes
10:47 kados for a NAME entry, this will include: X00, X10, X11, X51 ... very many tags!
10:47 paul in UNIMARC, there are not so many.
10:48 paul (at most 3)
10:48 kados key is all subfields, I understant his
10:48 paul NO.
10:48 kados heh
10:48 paul it's all subfields that you want to use as PRIMARY KEY.
10:48 kados meaning all subfields to be used in a search?
10:49 paul it depends on what you try to migrate. let me take some examples...
10:49 paul ===== 1ST one ======
10:49 paul (using 700 as personal name, and UNIMARC)
10:49 paul 700$31234$apoulain$bPaul$d1968-
10:49 paul 700$1234$aPOULAIN$bPaul
10:50 paul oups, a 3 missing.
10:50 paul 700$31234$aPOULAIN$bPaul
10:50 paul if you set key = 3 (and only 3) then those 2 lines are similar.
10:50 paul and build_auth consider them as only 1 authority.
10:51 paul if you set key=$a$b$d, then they are NOT the same authority
10:51 paul and you will get 2 differents authorities entries.
10:51 paul depending on your DB structure/quality, you may want to do one thing or the other !
10:51 kados $3 is linkage?
10:52 paul for every subfield you want to report in authority but NOT use as a primary key, you have the "other"
10:52 paul yes
10:52 paul there maybe more than 2 "john doe" in your DB
10:52 paul maybe one is 1840-1894 and the other 1920-
10:52 paul maybe you can't rely on birthdate.
10:53 paul you have to choose between quality of your data and quality of your authorities !
10:53 kados hmmm
10:53 kados I almost understand
10:53 kados in marc21 if I have good data and authortiies
10:53 kados I should select $9 as the key
10:54 paul if you put key=a|b|d and have "1840-1894" and "1840-1894 (dec)" in 2 differents biblios, then you'll get 2 authorities, even if it's the same person
10:54 paul you already have a $9 ?
10:54 kados it is linkage right?
10:54 kados I set it up for some tags
10:54 paul because it's supposed to be created/added by build_authorities.
10:54 kados I don't already have $9
10:54 paul no, the $9 is our INTERNAL-KOHA linkage.
10:54 paul it's filled by build_authorities
10:54 kados ahh ... so you have cases where an ID was preserved from the old system
10:55 kados currently I have no such cases :/
10:55 kados in fact, I think MARC21 does not have this feature
10:55 paul the diff between unimarc and marc21, is that in unimarc we have the $3
10:55 paul that does not exist in marc21
10:55 kados right
10:55 paul iirc, in marc21 "linkage is a local problem, solved by local solutions".
10:56 kados right
10:56 paul that's why authorities are better in unimarc imho
10:56 kados yep
10:56 kados so what do you suggest I put in 'other' when importing MARC21 authority records ?
10:57 kados (I don't quite understand what to do)
10:57 kados and what should be in 'key'?
10:57 paul it depends on what is in your datas !
10:57 paul if you are confident with your datas, are sure that their quality is correct, you can put every subfield in key.
10:58 kados if I have many "john doe" some with birthdate and some without in bib records
10:58 kados but very good auth records (fresh from OCLC)
10:59 paul (that's a situation build_authorities can't handle yet, but I answer and suppose you will modify the script)
10:59 paul then you should do :
10:59 paul * check with all subfields => authorities found : ok, i'm sure

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