Time Nick Message 10:59 paul * check with all subfields => authorities found : ok, i'm sure 10:59 paul then you should do : 10:59 paul (that's a situation build_authorities can't handle yet, but I answer and suppose you will modify the script) 10:58 kados but very good auth records (fresh from OCLC) 10:58 kados if I have many "john doe" some with birthdate and some without in bib records 10:57 paul if you are confident with your datas, are sure that their quality is correct, you can put every subfield in key. 10:57 paul it depends on what is in your datas ! 10:57 kados and what should be in 'key'? 10:57 kados (I don't quite understand what to do) 10:56 kados so what do you suggest I put in 'other' when importing MARC21 authority records ? 10:56 kados yep 10:56 paul that's why authorities are better in unimarc imho 10:56 kados right 10:55 paul iirc, in marc21 "linkage is a local problem, solved by local solutions". 10:55 kados right 10:55 paul that does not exist in marc21 10:55 paul the diff between unimarc and marc21, is that in unimarc we have the $3 10:55 kados in fact, I think MARC21 does not have this feature 10:55 kados currently I have no such cases :/ 10:54 kados ahh ... so you have cases where an ID was preserved from the old system 10:54 paul it's filled by build_authorities 10:54 paul no, the $9 is our INTERNAL-KOHA linkage. 10:54 kados I don't already have $9 10:54 paul because it's supposed to be created/added by build_authorities. 10:54 kados I set it up for some tags 10:54 kados it is linkage right? 10:54 paul you already have a $9 ? 10:54 paul if you put key=a|b|d and have "1840-1894" and "1840-1894 (dec)" in 2 differents biblios, then you'll get 2 authorities, even if it's the same person 10:53 kados I should select $9 as the key 10:53 kados in marc21 if I have good data and authortiies 10:53 kados I almost understand 10:53 kados hmmm 10:53 paul you have to choose between quality of your data and quality of your authorities ! 10:52 paul maybe you can't rely on birthdate. 10:52 paul maybe one is 1840-1894 and the other 1920- 10:52 paul there maybe more than 2 "john doe" in your DB 10:52 paul yes 10:52 paul for every subfield you want to report in authority but NOT use as a primary key, you have the "other" 10:51 kados $3 is linkage? 10:51 paul depending on your DB structure/quality, you may want to do one thing or the other ! 10:51 paul and you will get 2 differents authorities entries. 10:51 paul if you set key=$a$b$d, then they are NOT the same authority 10:50 paul and build_auth consider them as only 1 authority. 10:50 paul if you set key = 3 (and only 3) then those 2 lines are similar. 10:50 paul 700$31234$aPOULAIN$bPaul 10:50 paul oups, a 3 missing. 10:49 paul 700$1234$aPOULAIN$bPaul 10:49 paul 700$31234$apoulain$bPaul$d1968- 10:49 paul (using 700 as personal name, and UNIMARC) 10:49 paul ===== 1ST one ====== 10:49 paul it depends on what you try to migrate. let me take some examples... 10:48 kados meaning all subfields to be used in a search? 10:48 paul it's all subfields that you want to use as PRIMARY KEY. 10:48 kados heh 10:48 paul NO. 10:48 kados key is all subfields, I understant his 10:48 paul (at most 3) 10:47 paul in UNIMARC, there are not so many. 10:47 kados for a NAME entry, this will include: X00, X10, X11, X51 ... very many tags! 10:47 paul => yes 10:46 kados does this mean the list of bib MARC tags that this authority will fill? 10:46 paul (bulkauthimport is really outdated & probably don't work at all) 10:45 kados \ttaglist : the list of MARC tags using this authority 10:45 kados I will paste in each element with the included explaination then explain my question: 10:45 kados I cannot understand fully the whattodo hash 10:44 kados I have read through both build_authorities.pl and bulkauthimport.pl 10:44 kados but we will skip for now :-) 10:43 kados but not for _editing_ 10:43 kados for _searching_ 10:43 kados in MARC21 PERSONAL NAME and CORPORATE NAME are grouped within NAME 10:43 paul ok, let's delay this question 10:43 paul In unimarc we have a little bit more search points, as, for authors, you may have author PERSONAL NAME or CORPORATE name. 10:43 kados until I have more information 10:43 kados ok ... we can skip that one :-) 10:42 paul (or am not sure to see) 10:42 paul yes, but I don't see where the problem is 10:42 kados paul: does that make more sense? 10:40 kados but as I'm not a cataloger I can't be 100% sure 10:40 kados but I _think_ there are potentially many more editing frameworks desired 10:39 kados (also called the headings) 10:39 kados names, name/title combinations, uniform titles, or subjects. 10:38 kados in MARC21 there are only 4 valid search points 10:38 kados the problem is ... if I understand correctly 10:38 kados the user must select one before performing the search 10:38 kados so if you have NAME, SUBJECT, TITLE ... 10:37 kados in authorities search, you have search points defined as the frameworks 10:37 kados you have an option to search: 'titie', author, subject 10:37 kados a search point means that when you go to search 10:37 paul mmm... I don't see what you're speaking of. 10:36 kados right, but they are also used as search points in authorites if I'm not mistaken 10:35 paul and authtype for authorities 10:35 paul I use framework in biblios. 10:35 paul define the MARC templates, for biblio editing 10:34 kados for instance: what is the role of the 'framework'? 10:34 kados some of them I asked yesterday 10:34 kados related to authorities 10:34 kados paul: ok ... so my last question is actually several questions 10:33 kados hdl: the db is a gziped mysqldump 10:33 hdl ok 10:33 paul yep 10:33 kados paul: have time for my last question? 10:33 hdl tarbal ? 10:33 kados paul: while hdl sorts out serials problems ... 10:32 kados hdl: ahh ... I haven't seen this page yet because of Internal Server Error :-) 10:32 hdl unfortunately 10:32 kados (i clicked on the wrong button) 10:32 kados it fails on both :/ 10:32 kados wait ... I'm wrong 10:32 hdl Callnumber Barcode branch itemstatus location 10:32 hdl Issue 10:32 hdl Numbered planned for Status Notes 10:32 kados it does ... ! 10:32 kados http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull/subscription-detail.pl?subscriptionid=3 10:31 kados but this: 10:31 kados statecollection page does not fail 10:31 kados http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull/subscription-detail.pl?subscriptionid=4 10:31 kados why does this: 10:31 kados interesting 10:31 kados same error 10:30 hdl you have a new line in statecollection page : 10:28 kados liblime.com/koha_liblime.sql.gz is the database 10:28 hdl In default template : 10:27 kados (while I wait) 10:27 kados hdl: how do I add items to a subscription? 10:26 kados gzipping 10:25 kados dumping db now 10:24 kados liblime.com/koha_liblime.tgz is the install tarball (well, it is the cvs repo the install is symlinked too) 10:22 kados sure 10:22 hdl would you make me available a dump of your base and a tarball of your install ? 10:21 kados strange that it still shows up ... 10:21 hdl Never could get onto the page. 10:21 hdl This is the one I TRIED to add. 10:21 kados hdl: is that the one you added? 10:20 kados hdl: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull/subscription-detail.pl?subscriptionid=3 10:20 kados [Tue Mar 07 05:17:39 2006] [error] [client 62.212.120.129] Premature end of script headers: statecollection.pl, referer: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull/subscription-detail.pl?subscriptionid=3 10:20 kados [Tue Mar 07 05:17:39 2006] [error] [client 62.212.120.129] at /var/www/liblime.com/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/bull/statecollection.pl line 160, referer: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull/subscription-detail.pl?subscriptionid=3 10:20 kados [Tue Mar 07 05:17:39 2006] [error] [client 62.212.120.129] HTML::Template->output() : fatal error in loop output : HTML::Template::param() : attempt to set parameter 'itemlocationloop' with a scalar - parameter is not a TMPL_VAR! at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/HTML/Template.pm line 2963, referer: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull/subscription-detail.pl?subscriptionid=3 10:19 kados did it fail ... shoot 10:19 hdl Internal server error 10:19 hdl can you show me the logs ? 10:19 kados (in Subscription summary, 'end date' is missing) 10:18 kados btw: 'Waited' should be 'Waiting' in english 10:18 kados (suggesting the problem is not always present) 10:17 kados (IIRC yesterday, I could add one but your's failed) 10:17 kados hdl: can you try adding the one you did yesterday? 10:17 kados hmmm ... I just added a subscription and it seems to have worked 10:16 hdl (HTML::Template version) 10:16 hdl 2.7 10:15 kados done 10:15 kados Checking for data required in table systempreferences... 10:14 kados Checking for data required in table userflags... 10:14 kados synch'ing biblioitems 10:14 kados synch'ing biblio 10:14 kados synch'ing items 10:14 kados synch'ing borrowers 10:14 kados Alter encoding in marc_breeding 10:14 kados connected to your DB. Checking & modifying it 10:14 kados $ updater/updatedatabase 10:14 kados right 10:13 hdl He says we are passing him a scalar in place of loop. 10:13 kados what version of HTML::Template are you running? 10:13 hdl The problem comes from a failure in HTML::Template output calculation 10:12 kados I do 10:12 hdl But normally, if you have serialsadditems 10:12 paul there is a new systempref, so maybe yes. 10:12 kados I run it now again 10:12 hdl you may try. 10:11 kados hdl: maybe I need to run updatedatabase? 10:11 hdl Really Strange. 10:11 kados no reported updates 10:11 kados I just did cvs update from C4 dir ... 10:11 hdl (paul : kados problem results in a 550 Internal server error) 10:10 hdl (I don't remember which C4 file I modified to add serialsadditem Koha.pm or Bull.pm) 10:10 kados I will check right now 10:09 hdl did you update C4/* 10:09 hdl kados 10:08 kados right ... 10:08 paul but i'm like hdl : I never had this problem. 10:08 kados I also don't understand how to add an item with a serial 10:08 paul I saw (if you speak of adding a serial) 10:08 kados http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1048 10:08 kados sometimes I cannot save a newly created serial 10:08 kados I'm having trouble with rel_2_2 serials 10:07 kados shorter one first: 10:07 kados I have two questions left ... both quite long 10:07 kados I hope so 10:07 paul (unless savannah goes faster suddenly) 10:07 kados heh 10:06 paul expect it in april in your mailbox ;-) 10:06 kados true 10:06 paul ok, i'll write something to koha-devel. 10:06 paul i'm afraid we could introduce new bugs with what is in rel_2_2, thus I think it's better to move the 2nd digit to warn the libraries. 10:06 kados it's ok with me to be 2.4.0 10:06 kados 2.4.0 perhaps 10:05 paul ok, for NPL, it would make sense to have itemcallnumber based on framework. 10:05 kados (they use Dewey for non-fiction and a internal classification for Fiction) 10:05 paul should we call the next release 2.2.6 or 2.4.0 ? because there are a LOT of new features, even if the DB schema did not change. 10:05 kados (this may apply to NPL for instance) 10:05 kados (only if a library uses more than one classification system I suspect) 10:04 paul (but maybe i'm wrong) 10:04 paul (+ I don't think we need a different value for each framework) 10:04 kados your turn :-) 10:04 kados ok 10:04 paul because it was simple, quick & not too dirty. 10:04 paul it's the default value. Thus, when you edit an item, it's automatically filled with 676$a, but you can overwrite it. 10:03 kados why is it defined in sysprefs rather than the MARC framework? 10:03 paul for example : 676a if a library has physical shelves based on dewey 10:03 paul it's used to define the DEFAULT biblio subfield that will be automatically reported as itemcallnumber when creating a new item. 10:02 kados what is the 'itemcallnumber' setting in sysprefs? 10:02 kados ok ... one from me :-) 10:02 paul or another one from you ? 10:02 kados sure 10:02 paul my second question then ? 10:01 kados make sense? 10:01 paul ah, OK got it ! 10:01 kados c 10:01 kados b 10:01 kados a 10:01 kados 650 10:01 kados c 10:01 kados b 10:01 kados a 10:01 kados 650 10:01 kados but my clients prefer: 10:01 kados c 10:01 kados b 10:01 kados a 10:01 kados c 10:01 kados b 10:01 kados a 10:01 kados 650 10:01 kados your clients prefer the MARC labels to look like this: 10:00 kados 650 $a $b $c 10:00 kados 650 $a $b $c 10:00 kados say you have two 650 tags like this: 10:00 kados so for example 10:00 kados was customized for your clients to be non-standard IIRC 10:00 kados LabelMARCView: the previous code for display of MARC in OPAC results 09:58 paul (i've another question in fact, so 2. But the 2nd one is not a quick one ;-) ) 09:58 kados right ... 09:58 paul (your new systempref) 09:58 paul I don't understand what LabelMARCView does 09:57 kados your turn to ask ... :-) 09:57 kados it should be enough I think 09:57 kados ok ... what is the upper limit on TEXT? 09:56 paul it could be TEXT, I agree 09:56 kados (or actually, it might be of type 'text' now) 09:56 paul (i've a quick question too) 09:56 kados the current size of the 'search also' field is 255 chars 09:56 kados ok good ... next questions 09:55 kados yes, default 09:55 kados that first query scares me :-) 09:55 paul ) 09:55 paul (I suppose the framework is the default one. 09:55 paul then mysql -uX -p XXX <new_framework.sql 09:55 paul delete * from marc_*_structure where frameworkcode=''; 09:54 paul a sql dump of the 2 tables. then i'll include them as replacement in marc_datas/sql/marc21_en 09:54 kados In fact, what is the best way to upgrade a framework (bib or auth) 09:53 kados my first question is whats' the best way for thd to distribute the new MARC21 bib framework he's been working on? 09:53 paul throw them, i'm listening 09:53 paul and i think it's better when starting : he will have enough problems with HEAD bugs to avoid DB ones ;-) 09:53 kados paul: looks like thd may have already asked some of them ... 09:53 kados paul: so I actually have several questions 09:52 kados pierrick: that'll work too :-) 09:52 kados paul: yes in fact :-) 09:52 kados you could also obtain some MARC and use bulkmarcimport ... 09:52 paul full of authorities dreams ? 09:52 pierrick paul gave me a dump of a 2.2 installation from EMN (Ecole Mines Paris) 09:52 paul hello kados. nice sleep ? 09:51 kados and use LOAD DATA INFILE to load it in 09:51 kados pierrick: so you could, for instance, create a CSV file with some fake borrower information 09:51 pierrick hi joshua 09:51 pierrick (xchat, ça dépanne, mais je compte bien maîtriser irssi) 09:51 kados pierrick: I'd suggest you load in data elements separately so you can get familiar with the process 09:50 kados hi guys 09:41 osmoze c est bien mieux xchat non pierrick ;) 08:26 pierrick bon alors je quitte irssi que je ne maîtrise pas du tout, je reviens avec Xchat, c'est plus intuitif 08:25 paul mmm... c'est sur channel privé ! 08:24 pierrick Paul: do you have sample data to give me ? 08:13 thd enjoy your lunch paul 08:09 thd paul: OK now the function is clear. 08:09 paul that will be in biblio ! 08:09 paul as this table is dropped, we have to put it somewhere else. 08:08 paul the framework attached to a biblio is in marc_biblio in 2.2 08:08 paul nope. 08:07 thd paul: So you mean the framework types could be stored in one instead of two tables :) ? 08:06 paul (I mean in 2.2.x, as marc_biblio will die in 3.0. and the link to framework will be/is stored in biblio table) 08:06 paul biblio_framework and marc_biblio 08:05 paul yep : 08:05 thd paul: Are there also two tables for bibliographic frameworks? 08:03 paul hello pierrick 08:03 paul authority number 1244535, that is also a PERSONAL NAMES 08:03 pierrick (hello, by the way :-) 08:03 paul auth_header : authority number 1353968, that is a PERSONAL NAMES 08:03 pierrick misc/sampledata-1.2 does not work, due to DB scheme modification 08:03 pierrick I'm looking for sampledata compatible with current HEAD 08:03 paul auth_type : PERSONAL NAMES 08:02 paul (look at the DB scheme, on koha.org/wiki) 08:02 thd paul: I miss something. 08:02 paul nope. 08:02 thd paul: would that same content not function in one table? 08:01 paul auth_header contains 1 row for each auth type. 08:00 paul 1 row for 1 auth type 08:00 paul auth_types just contain authority definition (head of structure) 08:00 thd ? 08:00 thd paul: what is the function of each. Why two tables. 08:00 paul yes 07:59 thd auth_header and auth_types. 07:59 thd paul: authority types are stored in two tables. 07:58 paul (say in 2, to be sure) 07:58 paul but i'll be back in one hour and a half. 07:58 paul yep. 07:58 thd ? 07:58 thd paul: you mean I have ten minutes to ask you something before you leave for lunch :) 07:57 paul leaving for lunch in 10mn... 07:57 thd paul: are you there? 06:14 paul have a good night 06:13 russ catch you later 06:13 russ but now i need to go to bed 06:13 russ cool - i'll use the info i already have, and i will forward you a login to the cms for the website so you can see it before it goes live 06:12 paul yep 06:11 russ is that ok with you? 06:10 russ and promoting the event 06:10 russ paul - i will start making some pages to go up on koha.org that can be used for reference 06:07 chris but the big papers are only interested if its something big, or new 06:07 chris i would think only small non-specialised papers might be .. if you have them (here we have a few small free newspapers, who run pretty much any articles people send them) 06:05 paul I'm not sure TV and non-specialised press could be interested. 06:04 chris cool 06:04 paul I think/hope Ineo will do. They plan to do something with specialized press at least (there are something like 5 librarian oriented news papers) 06:03 chris ? 06:03 chris paul, when its a little bit closer to the time, do you think we could/should contact some media in paris and marseille, see if they are interested 05:59 russ as in loosely organised at the moment 05:59 russ it sounds like it is still a bit loose 05:59 russ umm 05:59 paul russ : another question about the meeting ? 05:58 chris yep, its pretty common 05:58 paul lol (and available is most languages i've been told) 05:57 chris paul is quite easy :-) 05:57 osmoze ok paul :) 05:57 chris ive been practising henri damien 05:57 chris :-) 05:57 russ :-) 05:57 paul * Anna W..., CMI librarian (she's polish, her name is a nightmare for a frenchy, that's why I write W...) 05:56 paul * pascale nalon, from ENSMP 05:56 paul we also should have 2 librarians : 05:56 paul I'll take care of coffee, stil have to speak with anna on those details. 05:56 chris hi paul 05:56 paul hello chris. 05:55 paul + some restaurants close. Just have to check if we can get some vegetarian food. 05:55 chris and a cafe nearby ? 05:55 chris :) 05:55 paul That's enough. 05:55 paul * a good net connexion 05:55 paul * the room (in CMI, a french library of mathematics, in Marseille, in one of Marseille University) 05:54 paul for the developper meeting, we already have all what is needed : 05:53 russ ah 05:53 paul (if osmoze reads this thread, he will see very interesting things. pls jean sebastien, don't speak publicly of this yet. announcement in a week or 2) 05:52 russ ok 05:52 paul payments : still undefined. 05:52 paul I just manage the "who speaks of what" 05:52 russ right - so they will take the payments? 05:52 paul and Ineo will manage registering too. 05:51 paul yep. 05:51 paul Ineo will manage mailings to invite pple widely (they already have the coordinates of the 1000 main libraries in France + we have 2-3 major mailing lists) 05:51 russ ok cool - so if was to do a form on the koha.org site, it could submit to that address? 05:51 paul we have a mail address conference.mai06@koha-fr.org for registering. 05:51 russ great 05:50 paul we already have a room (= ENSMP, still to be confirmed, but seems OK) 05:50 russ we = katipo 05:50 russ bit of background: i have lost count of the number of conference websites we have done for vairous things 05:50 paul we will do it ourself (Ineo & me) 05:49 russ are you thinking of hiring a professional conference organisor - or doing it yourselves? 05:48 russ yep 05:48 paul ;-) 05:48 paul (May, 3 I mean. It's day 2) 05:48 paul for day 3, we will probably ask a little bit more. the idea being to have some funds to give to the future NPO. that could be something like EUR50 05:47 russ it is a good idea to ask for a small amount 05:47 russ yep 05:47 paul librarians will be OK to pay a small fee, and, once they have pay, they come. Otherwise, we may have zillions of registering, but only a few people. 05:46 paul we think we will ask for a small fee (something like EUR15) for the 1st day. 05:46 paul ok 05:46 russ public 05:46 paul are you speaking of the day for public demo (2-3) or the developper meeting ? 05:46 russ this is for the events on the tuesday and the weds 05:45 russ do people need to pay? do they need to register? 05:45 russ ok here we go 05:45 russ http://www.stats.govt.nz/census/default.htm 05:44 paul throw the questions. 05:44 paul census day ? 05:44 russ the conference - how is that being organised? 05:42 russ just finishing my form :-) 05:42 russ its census day in nz 05:42 hdl hello osmoze 05:42 russ hi paul 05:41 paul russ, i'm here. 05:00 osmoze hello 04:48 russ cool 04:48 hdl in about half an hour. 04:48 russ do you know if paul is going to be around soon? 04:48 hdl hi russ 04:48 russ hi hdl 04:39 thd hdl: he was awake long past now Friday night and Saturday morning when he could not stop working on authorities but he is not as crazy as me ordinarily. 04:37 hdl :) 04:37 hdl But I tried anyway. 04:37 hdl thd: seems not. 04:37 thd hdl: Is kados awake? 04:31 hdl I shall try and delete mine that works, to see if I get the same error. 04:31 hdl And default templates ends in Internal server error. 04:29 hdl npl donot propose data input for barcodes or branches and so on and so forth... 04:27 hdl kados : I tried npl and default templates : 00:39 russ thd :-) 00:29 thd back in the correct universe now 00:27 thd russ: unless I am now living in an alternate universe :) 00:26 thd russ: yes sorry to have disturbed you with user error issuing IRC commands 00:25 russ thd: so you are all good now? 00:24 thd I was certain that I had always done it the same way but I must be mistaken 00:24 thd sorry chris russ si: I had used syntax that was not parsed correctly 00:20 thd the one running #koha? 00:19 thd russ si: do you know the IRC system? 00:18 Jo testing your bug fix.. 00:18 Jo Mason: can you come to hlt 00:18 thd or anyone from Katipo who knows the IRC system 00:17 thd chris: are you there? 00:17 thd chris: I have found a problem on #koha 22:45 thd kados: you should try to keep the generally useful things on the open channel as I just did for logbbot 22:44 thd good evening kados 22:44 kados ciao 22:43 kados ok ... I've really got to go now 22:43 kados as we may discuss money things :-) 22:43 kados but it will probably be a pmesg 22:43 kados undetermined 22:43 thd ? 22:43 thd circa what time if I rise :) 22:42 kados I'll discuss this with paul tomorrow 22:42 thd kados: OK 22:42 kados thanks for your explainations thd 22:42 kados I've got to head out 22:41 thd kados: A page refresh is also required and absent to change labels after reordering subfields. 22:40 thd kados: I do not know what extra state information would be needed to preserve tab location in JavaScript. I have never looked at the record editor code. 22:38 thd kados: This is usually manged with internal anchors while the page refreshes. 22:37 thd kados: If I add a second 650 I am thrown back to the beginning of tab 0. 22:36 thd kados: Another great inefficiency I have seen with the record editor is that context is not preserved when adding repeated fields. 22:34 thd kados: As we discussed before, the current option is only to hide them where they cannot be recalled without changing the framework rather than as the need arises for the material being catalogued. 22:32 thd kados: No one will be happy with a default framework that preserves all data but always has uncommonly needed fields and subfields in the way. 22:31 kados right, that woudl be nice 22:30 thd kados: This would be for the uncommonly used but occasionally needed fields and subfields. 22:29 thd kados: Another framework column would also be good for collapse or hide in JavaScript editor unless explicitly opened or expanded. 22:26 thd that would at least cover the explicit case if it works. 22:25 thd s/value/label/ 22:25 thd kados: I will definitely experiment with a blank OPAC value for the subfields labelled non-public. 22:25 kados thd: if you write a brief description of the feature and what indicators use it i will gladly code it 22:24 kados thd: we need to account for that I agree 22:23 thd kados: That does not cover the equally common case where the indicator is supposed to be read to determine privacy. 22:22 thd kados: The possibility that a blank value for the OPAC label hiding the content is interesting. 22:20 thd kados: But that information can never be entered in the record editor in the first place or changed for existing records if the subfield is hidden. 22:19 thd kados: Anonymous donor may stop giving if his name appears in the OPAC as one example of the consequence. 22:18 kados I think if you leave out the OPAC description for a given subfield it will not display but I haven't tested that theory 22:17 thd kados: another problem is the lack of any way to separate OPAC from patron visibility. There are fields and subfields which are private or non-public either absolutely or if an indicator is set. 22:16 thd kados: Especially as until something is added to support it nothing would break. 22:16 thd kados: new column is much less time I believe. 22:15 kados thd: maybe ... I will bring it up to paul tomorrow 22:15 kados thd: it would not take much time to add that 22:15 thd kados: Adding a new column and modifying code to support it is also much less coding than managing than whatever would be needed to extend the original column. 22:15 kados thd: there could easily be a tag 11 for the record editor 22:15 kados thd: the goal is compliance, not usability for 2.2.6 22:14 kados thd: i think it's ok if they don't appear in the logical place 22:13 thd kados: and their is not even a tab 10 for the record editor. Tab 10 is for items. 22:12 thd kados: If I am not mistaken tab assignment sets order of appearance even in the OPAC MARC view. 22:11 thd kados: Then they would not appear in the correct logical place in relation to the rest of the record in either the record editor or the OPAC. 22:10 kados for obsolete fields 22:10 kados we could create a tab '11' 22:10 thd kados: No one will want those in the way if empty but everyone will want to see them when editing old records if they have content. 22:08 thd kados: I am also concerned with the record editor being filled with obsolete fields and subfields. 22:07 kados thd: it should automatically hide if empty in the record display 22:06 thd kados: The problem is that -0 is the same number as 0 for obsolete fields/subfields that should appear in tab 0. 22:05 thd kados: Because we have no column to support hide if empty because this field/subfield is obsolete but show if data present. 22:04 kados why can't we just extend it as you propose? 22:04 kados why do we need another colum? 22:03 thd kados: I do like paul's frameworks very much. I see no reason to abandon them for 3.0. They might be extended or transformed. 22:01 thd kados: Therefore another column is required. 22:01 thd kados: I thought of changing behaviour by extending the value range so that obsolete would be shown only if present where -7 is obsolete for tab 7 but then -0 for tab 0 is not a numeral. 21:58 thd kados: -1 preserves content but hides, 0-9 are tabs, and 10 is the items tab. 21:57 thd kados: The values for subfield management are -1 - 10. 21:56 thd kados: I do have an experiment to conduct with the hide option but that certainly does not help visibility.. 21:55 thd kados: But this is a problem now because the same column that is used to place the subfields into the correct tab for viewing in the right sequence is also the same one for setting them to not viewable. 21:54 kados and it's not worth spending too much energy patching a sinking ship :-) 21:54 kados because the current design is deficient 21:54 kados I'm not as concerned about usability 21:53 kados my goal with 2.2.6 is to be MARC compliant 21:53 kados so when we're ready to spec that out we'll definitely discuss it with you 21:53 thd kados: Although, I suspect that in the real world at least some obsolete subfields do not have small use. 21:53 kados paul and I will be working on a new XUL-based design 21:53 kados but I think that's a version 3.0 discussion 21:52 kados good point 21:52 thd kados: No one wants their record editor forms supplying them with many obsolete fields and subfields merely to support the small but valuable set of records that use obsolete fields. 21:51 kados that's true 21:50 thd kados: However, the options to support visibility of content are very limited in the Koha frameworks. 21:49 thd kados: so my first purpose with the default frameworks has been to ensure that users do not loose data that they already have. 21:48 thd kados: There tends to be a correlation between libraries with money and libraries with the oldest MARC records but there is a big gap where records may have been copy catalogued by poor libraries from rich libraries with old records and then never updated at the poor libraries. 21:46 thd kados: However, some obsolete fields were not even moved but simply abandoned with changes in AACR. Those fields still have data of value if they are populated. 21:44 thd kados: Libraries who cared and had money sent their records off for conversion to the newer format. 21:43 thd kados: changes over time have moved the correct place to encode data from one place to another. 21:42 thd kados: a modest code change in a few places would allow legacy fields and subfields which should no longer be used to create current records but still bring them up in the correct place if filled with legacy data. 21:40 kados could you expand on what those are? 21:39 thd kados: a new column is needed for obsolete fields and subfields 21:39 kados what's that? 21:39 thd kados: there is something that ought to be changed now for the frameworks though. 21:37 thd kados: more fine grained aspects for individual indicator and fixed field positions 21:36 thd kados: mandatory needs gradations at some point. 21:35 thd kados: so If incomplete records were submitted there should be a warning to accept an incomplete record instead of refusal, although I do not remember what the message is now when leaving out something mandatory. 21:13 thd kados: signify when your are off phone he said as he stepped out of the room for a moment. 21:12 thd kados: It should also be possible to create incomplete records that require further editing. 21:11 kados (phone call) 21:11 kados what about the 'mandatory' flag? 21:10 thd kados: Also, as you correctly point out it would be helpful to add a check for 6XX as good to have even if not mandatory under some LC standard. 21:09 thd kados: However, issues outside of fill some 1XX may be more likely missed accidentally. 21:08 thd kados: So that some 1XX is always filled. Any cataloguer worth his pay understands that. 21:07 thd kados: there is no way to express mandatory if applicable. 21:06 thd so the bibliographic framework design does not have a problem but it does have inadequacies for expressing what is mandatory. 20:19 kados thd: just sent you a private message ... could you see it? 20:19 kados nope :-) 20:18 thd kados: Or me blocked :) 20:18 kados :-) 20:18 kados nope 20:18 thd kados: Do you have private messages blocked? 20:18 kados nope 20:18 thd kados: have you changed your IRC client configuration? 20:18 kados thd: no 20:17 thd kados: Are you connecting from an unusual place? 20:17 kados thd: no ... strangely 20:16 thd kados: did you see my messages now? 20:10 kados thd: time limitation factor? 20:09 kados thd: I didn't see it 20:07 thd kados: We do not have to discuss the possibility at this moment but there is a time limitation factor. 20:05 thd kados: Did you see my private messages from an hour and a half ago? 20:04 thd kados: a rel_2_2 update must have changed it unless my dump was constrained for compatibility with multiple versions of MySQL. 20:02 thd kados: varchar was the original when I had started working on it. 20:01 kados thd: thanks for the command :-) 20:01 kados I'll ask paul whether text or varchar would be better there 20:00 thd kados: here is the ALTER command: ALTER TABLE `marc_subfield_structure` CHANGE `seealso` `seealso` VARCHAR( 2047 ) NULL DEFAULT NULL; 19:58 kados dunno 19:57 thd kados: it has been changed to type text in rel_2_2. What are the limitations on text? 19:52 thd kados: `marc_subfield_structure`(`seealso` varchar(2047) default NULL ); is in there but that is not the code you would want ot commit. 19:49 kados and I'll commit it to rel_2_2 19:49 kados tell me what you have in your SQL file 19:49 kados right 19:49 thd kados: I could find the confirmed exact answer to your question in a minute but I did it differently, 19:47 thd kados: I have been dro[pping the table and recreating it from an SQL file filled with insert statements. 19:46 thd ALTER `marc_subfield_structure.seealso` VARCHAR(2047); or something like that 19:46 kados thd: don't you have it in your mysql client history? 19:45 kados :-) 19:45 thd kados tests my instant SQL coding 19:44 kados thd: what was involved in fixing it ... do you have the SQL? 19:44 kados right 19:44 thd kados: of course I have not fixed it at LibLime because I do not have that level of access. 19:43 kados thd: I'll bring that up to paul as well tomorrow 19:43 thd kados: Yes 19:43 kados thd: do we need to increase the size of that field? 19:43 thd kados: I have fixed it. 19:43 kados thd: so the 255 byte limit for the 'search also' feature is a problem, eh? 19:42 kados thd: sorry ... got disconnected 19:37 thd kados: are you still there? 19:34 thd kados: That is needed to support seealso searching of all relevant subfields from all related fields. 19:32 thd kados: The completed default MARC 21 bibliographic framework will increase the size from 255 to marc_subfield_structure.seealso VARCHAR(2047). 19:28 thd kados: the default bibliographic framework already had 100q. I added whatever I could within 255 bytes to the see also for 100 $a in the default MARC bibliographic framework. 19:26 thd kados: So I added 100d which had been missing from the see also for 100 $a in the default bibliographic framework. 19:24 thd kados: All I did was add all the author subfields contained in existing 100 authority records. 19:22 thd kados: I had meant to make the change while you were still awake but was then distracted when I realised that you may be reading too much from a non-working bulkauthimport.pl design. 19:21 kados thd: I did notice that though I'm not sure what you did ... could you expand? 19:20 thd kados: I fixed authorities author searching from the LibLime demo OPAC for the advanced search pop-up last night. Maybe you missed my announcement in the log. 19:18 thd kados: ISBD configuration should inform the system only which fields and subfields to return at what points as well as what joining punctuation to use. The order of repeated fields and any specified intra field subfields should be whatever order appears in the record while now it is the order that they appear in the ISBD configuration specified. 19:14 thd kados: In either case the Koha ISBD design needs to change to read field and subfield order from the record rather than from the supplied configuration. 19:11 thd kados: you are missing the field separator from the code that you had used 19:09 kados I haven't looked at it 19:09 kados it's possible the ISBDdetail code works better than the ISBD code that was included in the authorities display 19:09 thd kados: However it does have repeated subjects correct. 19:08 kados right 19:08 thd Which is unavoidable in the current Koha ISBD design. 19:06 thd kados: This record has multiple publishers in 260 $a $b $a $b $c repented as 260 $a $a $b $b $c. 19:04 thd kados: you can see both the success and the failure of the Koha ISBD configuration in this record http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-ISBDdetail.pl?bib=109 . 19:01 kados hdl: try to add the serial again please 19:01 kados hdl: I deleted statecollection.pl/tmpl and grabbed latest cvs copies 18:59 hdl The first version I commited had to be worked upon. 18:58 hdl kados : I know I first had this error when I first commited. But should have been fixed for more than one week now. 18:57 thd kados: Your ISBD system preference is empty. I will fill it 18:50 hdl thd: we are both on latest rel_2_2 18:49 kados hdl: i will delete and reload from cvs 18:49 kados hdl: in fact, they are stock cvs 18:49 thd hdl: Does it work with the latest rel_2_2 or are you and paul using the 2.2.5 release? 18:49 hdl henridamien at koha-fr dot org 18:49 kados sure 18:49 hdl would you send me your statecollection.pl and statecollection.tmpl ? 18:48 hdl it works. 18:48 hdl and paul has the same behavior as I. 18:47 kados hdl: strange then 18:47 hdl I work on english templates. 18:47 thd kados: yes just look at any record with multiple repeated subject fields using the ISBD configuration that I supplied to you 18:46 kados hdl: could french templates be different than english templates? 18:46 kados thd: do you have an example of the previous one working? 18:45 thd kados: However, 260 $a $b $a $b comes out as 260 $a $a $b $b 18:45 kados hdl: (but no changes were listed) 18:45 kados hdl: (I updated all templates in default/en) 18:45 kados hdl: try now 18:44 kados hdl: I'll check 18:44 kados thd: you'll have to show me how 18:44 thd kados: so you can make 400 $a $d 400 $a $d work 18:44 hdl Are your templates up to date ? 18:43 hdl Strange. 18:43 kados thd: I don't think it can represent repeated tags acceptably either 18:43 kados thd: right 18:42 kados [Mon Mar 06 13:39:36 2006] [error] [client 62.212.120.129] Premature end of script headers: statecollection.pl, referer: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull-home.pl 18:42 thd kados: Orderliness is not read from the record in the existing Koha ISBD model it is instructed in the Koha ISBD configuration supplied. 18:42 kados [Mon Mar 06 13:39:36 2006] [error] [client 62.212.120.129] at /var/www/liblime.com/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/bull/statecollection.pl line 160, referer: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull-home.pl 18:42 kados hdl: [Mon Mar 06 13:39:36 2006] [error] [client 62.212.120.129] HTML::Template->output() : fatal error in loop output : HTML::Template::param() : attempt to set parameter 'itemlocationloop' with a scalar - parameter is not a TMPL_VAR! at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/HTML/Template.pm line 2963, referer: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull-home.pl 18:42 hdl I tried Iowa journal. 18:42 kados hdl: when did you get it? 18:42 hdl yes. 18:42 kados hdl: I just attempted and it seems to have worked 18:42 kados hdl: did you get an internal server error? 18:41 hdl internal server error? 18:41 thd kados: The existing Koha ISBD model can represent repeated fields acceptably but has a problem with repeated subfields within the field where the repeated subfields are not consecutive. 18:40 kados try 'american' with itemtype magazine 18:40 kados any search for 'magazine' 18:40 hdl can you give the name of the serials ? 18:39 kados hdl: use 9903 as bib record (magazine) 18:38 kados supplier 1 is EBSCO 18:38 kados hdl: try with default templates 18:38 hdl there are. 18:38 kados hdl: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/bull/subscription-add.pl 18:38 hdl SURE!!!! 18:37 kados hdl: (btw: are there any changes to make to a template to support serials itemization?) 18:37 kados hdl: I tested with default templates even 18:36 kados and the errors are in the log as i posted to the bug report 18:36 kados adding any serial fails 18:36 kados you can try it on liblime demo 18:35 kados right ... 18:35 hdl can you give me details for you bug #10008 paul and I couldnot see it happen. 18:35 kados http://www.loc.gov/marc/uma/index.html 18:35 kados http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Auth0001.htm 18:35 kados hdl: the best resources are the following (for marc21) 18:35 kados hdl: so you can see what I did 18:34 kados hdl: I committed my changes 18:34 kados thd: can you expand on what you said earlier about ISBD? 18:34 hdl kados : i will have to work hard on authority soon. 18:33 kados thd: I'll add that to my list of questions for him tomorrow 18:33 kados thd: I'm guessing paul can help us to distribute it in the best way 18:33 kados thd: good news about the framework 18:32 kados thd: if you need to discuss anything with me 18:32 kados thd: I'm back now 18:32 kados thd: nice :-) 18:32 thd kados: I have been so careful that I have even found a typo in an official MARC 21 document. 18:17 thd In summary still a few more days required. 18:16 thd s/corrections/careful verification/ 18:15 thd s/corrections/careful proofreading/ 18:15 kados thd: give me just a sec and I"ll be with you 18:15 kados thd: excellent 18:14 thd kados: I worked on the MARC 21 default framework all day yesterday and will be done after another day except for corrections and a proper import script. 18:12 thd kados: There is much to discuss. 18:12 pierrick thanks Joshua 18:10 chris thanks kados 18:10 kados I'll post a summary later today 18:10 thd pierrick: If you have good sound and tolerable video it can be acceptable. Poor sound is bad. 18:10 hdl Thx 18:10 hdl Nope. 18:10 kados k ... meeting's closed then ... thanks everyone! 18:10 chris yes, its hard work 18:10 hdl And transcription is a real job. 18:09 chris not from me 18:09 kados anything else to discuss? 18:09 pierrick making great quality video seems to be quite complicated, not so sure it will be possible 18:08 hdl Stupid of me. 18:08 hdl you're right pierrick.... 18:07 hdl Sorry EMP. 18:07 pierrick Nantes ??? Paris, you mean 18:07 hdl I shall remind paul. 18:06 hdl Ecole des Mines de Nantes (User's conf) 18:06 thd Someone needs to know how to make the equipment work. Good equipment run by an unprofessional user might as well be poor equipment. 18:06 pierrick EMN? 18:06 chris having the transcriptions of the talks are valuable 18:06 pierrick MN ? 18:06 hdl If EMN is involved, thay can have a good auditorium room. 18:06 chris we should get people to transcribe also 18:05 thd However, someone needs to have the right well tested equipment. Poor quality sound is poor publicity. 18:05 chris should be done soonish 18:05 kados sweet 18:05 chris we are working on getting a US based mirror for koha.org 18:05 hdl :D 18:05 chris or both :) 18:05 chris yep 18:04 hdl or koha.org ? 18:04 hdl maybe on koha-fr.org 18:04 kados thd: good idea 18:03 thd pierrick: A video archive should be posted somewhere when it is all done unless it is too poorly organised. It ought to be an enduring archive of good publicity. 18:03 chris :) 18:03 kados obvoiusly we need to start promoting it as soon as possible 18:03 kados do we need to talk about anything else related to the con? 18:02 kados plus some time off inbetween 18:02 kados well ... 11 :-) 18:02 kados so basically about 10 days 18:02 pierrick video ? we didn't speak about it? It's a good idea. I'll ask my boss. 18:01 thd Will there be a video archive? 18:01 kados heh 18:01 pierrick and someone will translate to french 18:00 pierrick Joshua will speak english on day 2 18:00 hdl Since we are mostly english speaking persons. 18:00 hdl But not for dev conf. 18:00 hdl For users' conf, will be needed. 17:59 thd spoken French, I would have no chance 17:59 hdl :) 17:58 chris i plan to pay pierrick or hdl or paul with chocolate to sit next to me and translate :-) 17:57 chris cool pierrick 17:57 chris may 2 and 3 in paris 17:56 pierrick INEO plans to call some french libraries for the first day presentation 17:56 chris may 8-12 developer week in marseille 17:56 hdl They could then gather and share experiences. 17:56 chris may 4-7 free time (explore paris) 17:56 chris may 3 - koha users - for existing koha users 17:56 chris may 2 general koha presentation, everyone interested come along 17:55 chris so 17:55 hdl And 4 days for developers in Marseille 17:55 hdl 2 days with users 17:55 russ sorry i have another meeting, i must go, catch you all later 17:55 hdl 1 day gl presentation 17:54 pierrick (sorry HDL, go on) 17:54 pierrick 1 day of general presentation 17:54 hdl yes 17:54 kados hdl: can you? 17:54 kados so maybe hdl should summarize what our plans are thusfar :-) 17:54 chris we have some dates 17:54 russ cos we really need to get something out to all the lists and the site soon 17:54 kados right 17:54 hdl and Marseille 17:54 russ i'll email paul again 17:54 kados Paris in fact 17:53 pierrick Koha Con(ference) 17:53 kados thd: we're organizing a Koha Conference to be held in France in May 17:53 thd what is Koha Con? 17:53 russ i had hoped he would be here today 17:53 kados chris: ? 17:53 russ i have some dates from Paul 17:53 russ Koha Con - um not really :-) 17:52 kados russ: can you summarize where we're at with that? 17:52 russ i have some urls on a scrap of paper that i will dig out when i see the post on the list 17:52 kados last item on the agenda is the Koha Con 17:52 kados cool 17:52 russ no i think that covers it for me 17:52 kados anything else to discuss on that topic? 17:51 kados sounds good 17:51 chris so lets start a discussion on what, on the list and see if some nice goals coalesce 17:50 chris i think what has to be decided first, and then where after 17:50 thd There are different costs and liability issues for various jurisdictions 17:50 russ chris: i agree 17:50 russ oops 17:50 russ chris : me 17:49 russ know you were going to ask that 17:49 chris i think thats best discussed on the devel list 17:49 russ before we start down the process of creating an entity 17:49 russ lets find out if they are even remotley aligned 17:49 kados cool ... got urls? 17:49 russ kados: exactley 17:49 russ who have published their cert of incporp 17:49 kados doesn't need to be _too_ specific, though I think it would be a good exercise to put down in writing our goals 17:49 russ i found an example of another software project 17:48 kados "to promote the Koha integrated Library system" 17:48 kados something like: 17:48 kados in the US it's usually just a two-three sentence mission statement 17:48 russ and then decide where 17:48 kados yep 17:48 russ i think we need to work on that first 17:48 russ or a definition of purpose 17:47 russ but with both you need a constitution 17:47 russ i have looked a little bit at us, but mainly nz not for profit setups 17:47 russ and the thing is that you need to have a clear idea of what you want to do 17:47 kados cool ... what'd you find out? 17:47 russ well i have been looking into that 17:47 kados so the first step is to get an org going 17:46 kados good point 17:46 chris i dont think we want/need to do everything at once 17:46 chris 2 slowly evolve/expand organisations role 17:46 chris 1 get some kinda not for profit organisation 17:45 thd Therefore rach has a small kaitiaki assistant :) 17:45 chris its a process 17:45 chris the way i see it 17:45 kados right 17:45 chris and a company to look after .. its a pretty unrealistic thought that she can devote the time necessary to the role 17:44 chris technically she is, but with a hmm 6 week old baby 17:44 chris a not for profit allows for funding to be sought to remunerate people 17:44 thd I thought rach was kaitiaki currently 17:44 kados there's a ton of press from that time period 17:44 kados pate did an excellent job while we were transitioning from 1.2 to 2.0 17:43 russ it also takes a special kind of person 17:43 kados yep 17:43 chris and it takes a huge amount of work 17:43 chris it has always been a volunteer role 17:43 chris they are the central point of contact .. overall guidance, press, etc 17:42 thd chris what has the kaitiaki done in the past? 17:41 chris guardian 17:41 thd what is the meaning of kaitaiki? 17:40 chris which is currently not being done 17:40 chris is fulfilling the kaitiaki role 17:40 chris what i see the foundation doing 17:40 thd s/righting/writing/ 17:39 thd russ: claim is not about righting it is about administering the license 17:39 chris im sure there is some skemotah in there too 17:39 kados thd: Amazon.pm is copyright LibLime IIRC 17:39 russ we wouldn't lay claim to writing all the code 17:39 chris plus i dont even want to start on the whole gpl v3 17:39 thd chris: which code is that? 17:38 chris there is some code copyright to others 17:38 hdl chris : yes, but developers can be at risk. 17:38 chris no its not 17:38 thd chris: now the community is small and all assignment is to Katipo so only one entity can upgrade to GPL V3 17:38 kados we had different assumptions then :-) 17:38 kados ahh :-) 17:38 chris koha 17:38 chris the project 17:38 kados safer for who? 17:38 chris than having one copyright holder 17:37 chris is safer 17:37 chris so having more copyright holders 17:37 thd chris: yes that is the virtue of assignment 17:37 chris yes, but in order to change the license you must get agreement of all the copyright holders 17:37 kados chris: because any legal disputs over patents then have to be filed against the corp and not the individual 17:37 thd s/assignment/copyright assignment/ 17:36 kados chris: I disagree, though I'm not a lawyer ... I think the fsf always recommends turning over the copyright of a GPL work to them 17:36 chris i have no plans to upgrade the license 17:36 thd chris: assignment is an absolute requirement to upgrade the license 17:36 hdl :D 17:36 hdl India ? 17:36 russ i think the details need to be worked on and discussed 17:35 thd :) 17:35 thd kados: Then it should be based or have qualified offices in every country where grant money is available but no country with software idea patents. 17:35 chris i think its safer/good for developers own copyrights 17:35 russ to me the purpose of the non profit discussion at this stage is to ensure that the project carries on 17:35 chris 2. im not sure about 17:35 kados (against suits, etc.) 17:34 kados 3. it will provide a measure of protection for companies selling services on Koha 17:34 kados ) 17:34 kados (think 'Apache foundation' 17:34 kados 2. the non-profit will own the Koha brand as well as copyrights on the code 17:34 kados work even 17:34 kados 1. we can go after grants for development works 17:33 kados in detail 17:33 thd kados: please explain the basic conception behind the non-profit. 17:33 kados thd: several purposes that we can discuss after the meeting 17:33 thd kados: what purpose does the the non-profit have? 17:33 russ :-) 17:33 kados so ... now I have :-) 17:32 kados 07:50 < kados> paul: OK ... I will mention this at the meeting 17:32 kados 07:46 < paul> I suspect it would be easier to do something in US and "localize" it in France, than the opposite. 17:32 russ i concur :-) 17:32 kados 07:45 < paul> that must be handled carefully, with an international lawyer. I asked a french from mozilla fundation (Tristan Nitot), but didn't get any answer yet 17:32 kados 07:44 < paul> my conclusion : it's a very very hard question. 17:32 kados 07:43 < kados> paul: (since you will not be attending the meeting tonight ... do you have any results from your queries into where the non-profit should be located: france, us, or elsewhere?) 17:32 kados I'll paste in the conversation 17:31 kados I spoke to paul about the non-profit briefly this morning 17:31 pierrick thank you thd for asking a brief explanation :-) 17:30 thd kados: yes please do as I have no idea what that is even 17:30 kados thd: lets move on to discuss the Koha non-profit 17:30 thd kados: you should check my comprehensive MARC 21 ISBD system preference to see how it is done 17:30 kados thd: actually ... lets postpone that until after the mtg 17:29 kados thd: please explain 17:29 thd kados: you are a little mistaken about the hierarchy issue in Koha ISBD 17:29 kados thd: though as we've discussed, the behavior after selection is not as expected 17:28 kados thd: I think it's working now for all but author searches 17:28 kados $400 $a $b $400 $a $b was represented as $400 $a $a $b $b 17:28 thd hdl: the OPAC advanced search pop-up lacks template corrections 17:27 kados the problem with the old ISBD style of building the summary was that it could not represent the true hierarchy of the record 17:27 thd hdl: what you may see has not been corrected for all template parts 17:26 kados for one, the 'from source' 17:26 kados there are several other types I'd like to add to the summary 17:26 kados so it's quite easy in fact to categorize the hierarchy correctly for display 17:26 kados all see and see also are in 4XX and 5XX respectively 17:25 thd There is much less divergence than with the bibliographic standards except for subject subdivisions which are much more troublesome in MARC 21 17:25 kados in MARC21 all authorized headings are in the 1XX field 17:25 hdl If ppl wil be able to have different summary for 1 auth type or what use we could do for different summary (headings) 17:24 kados hdl: I'm listening 17:24 thd UNIMARC and MARC 21 authorities are very similar 17:24 hdl I wonder 17:23 kados I think we can move on ... unless anyone has something to add to the auth discussion 17:23 thd s/read authorities/read authorities in Koha/ 17:22 kados I plan to talk at detail tomorrow with paul about some other ideas we have 17:22 kados though we also hacked on the authorites editor as well as the framework 17:22 kados mainly they were display issues 17:21 kados will give you a good feel for what the modifications we made will allow 17:21 thd kados: If you read a little French then you can read authorities :) 17:21 kados a NAME search on 'Lewis' or Twain 17:21 kados there is now an authorities search in the OPAC 17:21 kados http://opac.liblime.com 17:21 thd kados: just that most of what I saw was in a compressed time a few months ago 17:20 kados first let me show off what thd and I did 17:20 kados thd: great! 17:20 thd kados: I understand authorities fairly deeply 17:20 kados paul's not here so I think we'll have to skip authorities discussion in detail 17:19 kados ok then we can move on eh? 17:19 kados woot :-) 17:19 chris me 17:19 kados for perl-zoom? 17:19 kados so ... who's gonna work on that task list? 17:19 kados right 17:18 chris this isnt upgrading from 2.2 to 3.0 .. its slapping zebra into 2.2 .. but yes that will be needed in the future thd 17:18 thd code needs to change to preserve holdings ID from rel_2_2 to 3.0 17:18 chris in zebra, then zebra has to know what the currentbranch is 17:18 kados to change holdingbranch? 17:17 chris if we are searching the branch location 17:17 chris yes 17:17 kados it does? 17:17 chris returns has to update zebra 17:17 chris returns .. if we search over branch by zebra 17:17 kados ok ... sounds reasonable 17:16 chris 3.0 will 17:16 kados zebra's got a much better system for handling stop words that we should definitely use 17:16 chris they should be stripped before the search is called 17:16 chris stop words should just keep working 17:16 kados for searching 17:16 thd upgrading is a problem for holdings 17:16 kados also, stopwords 17:15 chris the only thing i can think of 17:15 kados order by 17:15 pierrick I don't 17:15 kados anyone think of anything else? 17:15 chris cant see why they wouldnt 17:15 chris which would be good 17:14 chris if rebuild_zebra works, then that will allow us to upgrade 17:14 chris no 17:14 kados bulkmarcimport and rebuild_zebra been tested with the plugin? 17:14 kados what else? 17:14 kados k ... two more todos then 17:14 chris dunno havent tested 17:14 kados and edits? 17:14 kados how about deletions? 17:14 chris yep 17:14 kados and items as well ... 17:14 chris yep 17:13 kados adding biblios works eh? 17:13 chris yeah 17:13 kados series title, format, location, barcode, call #, publisher, published between dates 17:13 kados sweet 17:13 chris its very easy 17:13 chris then another elsif in SearchMarc.pm 17:12 chris basically we just have to add more data to collection.abs and pqf.properties 17:12 kados so that's a todo 17:12 chris itemtype will when we add it to our collection.abs and pqf.properties 17:12 chris isbn 17:12 kados any others? 17:12 kados author, title, subject I think 17:11 kados so chris, what search points are working now? 17:11 kados pierrick: yep, installation's never been easy in Koha 17:11 kados thd: one of my clients who sponsored perl-zoom development 17:11 pierrick I mean libyaz/yaz/ZOOM/zebra 17:10 thd kados: What is meadville? 17:10 chris theres still bunches of bugs that need to be ironed out 17:10 pierrick personnaly, HEAD installation was not so easy, mainly due to environnement issues 17:10 kados i forwarded the description email to meadville so they should start testing soon 17:09 chris ie, it works fine if you install clean, make the db changes and then load your data in 17:09 kados right ... so maybe a shell script or two to help with that 17:09 chris well, currently there is no easy way to upgrade from a 2.2 install 17:09 kados hmmm 17:09 chris so whats left to be done? 17:08 chris there is no added functionality, BUT searches are now done on zebra 17:07 chris there is more work to be done, and some more testing ... but its all work useful for 3.0 also 17:06 kados (I wrote a mail to koha-devel about how to get the plugin working but it hasn't arrived yet) 17:06 chris with a few database changes, and copying some scripts and some modules from HEAD to a 2.2.5 koha install, you can get zebra playing nice with 2.2 17:06 chris ok 17:05 kados chris: want to summarize where we're at with the plugin? 17:05 kados so perl-zoom integration 17:05 kados I'll take that as a no 17:04 pierrick (I'm CVS expert, but not Koha yet) 17:04 thd Koha is intuitive only cvs is not 17:04 kados anything to add before we start taking about perl-zoom? 17:04 kados http://tinyurl.com/ztkar 17:04 kados here's our mtg agenda: 17:03 russ most excellent, welcome aboard pierrick 17:03 chris :-) 17:03 pierrick (bwouhaha) 17:03 kados he's a fast learner apparantly :-) 17:03 kados pierrick did his first commit today 17:03 kados pierrick even :-) 17:03 pierrick thank you Joshua 17:03 kados welcome to pierick! 17:03 kados so first things first 17:02 kados paul's not going to make it 17:02 pierrick I'm her 17:02 thd s/her/here/ 17:02 thd still her 17:01 kados who's here? 17:01 kados lets get our mtg started ... so first ... roll call 17:01 kados ok ... it's 20:00 GMT 17:01 hdl ok. 17:01 kados if not let me know 17:01 kados yep, that should do it 17:01 kados zebrasrv localhost:2100 17:01 kados zebraidx commit 17:00 kados zebraidx create kohadb 17:00 kados hdl: so the steps are: 17:00 hdl is that all ? 17:00 kados hdl: zebraidx commit 17:00 hdl ow do you run a commit ? 17:00 kados AGENDA: http://tinyurl.com/ztkar 16:59 kados T-MINUS 2 MINUTES TO KOHA MEETING 16:59 kados it was driving me batty :-) 16:59 kados yea ... quite a relief when i figured it out 16:59 chris cool, its good that we know what it is now 16:59 kados and that seemed to be the only solution 16:59 kados I ran into the same prob with setting up owen's test site 16:59 thd kados: I was forgetting that this was almost a JavaScritp template :) 16:59 chris ill let you answer hdl on the list then 16:58 chris ahh 16:58 kados you have to run a 'commit' after you create a new db 16:58 chris ahh 16:58 chris joshua and I were having this problem 16:58 kados I suspect it's shdow registers 16:58 kados I think I know the problem 16:58 kados actually chris ... 16:58 chris for your zebra problem .. how did you create your kohazebra db ? 16:58 kados thd: and we need some javascript for reordering of subfields within a tag too 16:57 kados thd: we just need some javascript to insert a new subfield below the existing one 16:57 chris just quickly before our meeting hdl 16:57 kados hi hdl 16:57 thd kados: So the template work to support the underlying remains? 16:57 chris hi hdl 16:57 hdl hi 16:57 kados thd: but the actual editor hasn't been modified to support it 16:56 kados thd: the underlying marc structure and routines support it now 16:56 thd kados: Have you fixed original cataloguing subfield repeatability in the biblo record editor some where? 16:52 kados in the next ten minutes or so 16:52 kados if anyone has stuff to add, please do 16:51 kados MEETING AGENDA: http://tinyurl.com/ztkar 16:51 chris but i couldnt see any way to do it 16:51 kados well ... not a big deal really 16:51 chris ill have to go read hybrid-ircd docs more 16:51 kados I'm pretty sure anyway ... 16:50 kados in Unreal ircd you can add channel opers too 16:50 chris irc operators can ban, gline etc .. but they dont have any special rights in a channel 16:50 chris you can add irc operators .. but not channel operators 16:49 kados ahh 16:49 kados and reload the config without killing everyone 16:49 chris doestn work that way 16:49 chris no 16:49 kados if so, you should be able to manually add operators 16:49 chris hybrid-ircd 16:49 kados chris: ircd? 16:48 kados chris: is this running on a katipo box though? 16:48 thd kados: I have his address if you still need it 16:48 kados i get it now ... he was first on 16:48 kados isn't this a katipo box? 16:47 kados what! 16:47 mason :) 16:47 russ pate-lurk is the only one who does 16:47 chris only pat can 16:47 kados chris: so can't change the topic 16:47 kados chris: I don't have oper privs 16:47 kados chris: you here? 16:46 kados T-MINUS 15 MINUTES TO KOHA MEETING 15:28 thd I will find you tomorrow paul_away 15:21 thd paul: are you there? 13:10 paul (and he is doing a pretty good job it seems !) 13:10 paul lol 13:09 owen He's probably out conquering North America in the name of Liblime :) 13:09 paul [16:52:19] <kados> as I have several appointments today 13:09 paul [16:52:09] <kados> now ... unfortunately I must go :/ 13:08 paul hello owen. kados leaves 10mn ago. 13:07 pierrick OK 13:06 paul borrowers 13:06 pierrick where are stored members in DB ? I see table "users" was dropped by updatedatabase 12:59 hdl owen : can you answer ? 12:57 hdl And it seems thet all my files were committed. 12:57 hdl kados : I donot have the same problem. Is it with npl templates ? 12:53 paul kados : yep, i'll be here tomorrow 12:53 kados pierrick++ 12:53 pierrick see you tonight 12:53 kados bye all 12:52 kados I would like to discuss authorites and serials in further detail 12:52 hdl yes. 12:52 kados paul: hdl: will you be around tomorrow? 12:52 kados as I have several appointments today 12:52 kados now ... unfortunately I must go :/ 12:51 kados paul: OK ... I will mention this at the meeting 12:51 kados hdl: maybe forgot a commit? 12:50 hdl Or have I forgotten a commit ? 12:49 hdl Did you change something ? 12:49 hdl kados : seems it work for me. 12:48 paul (I know, but I tried ;-) ) 12:47 paul I suspect it would be easier to do something in US and "localize" it in France, than the opposite. 12:47 pierrick Tristan is a very busy person 12:47 paul that must be handled carefully, with an international lawyer. I asked a french from mozilla fundation (Tristan Nitot), but didn't get any answer yet 12:46 pierrick I can't drink so much ! (I don't drink alcohol at all in reality) 12:46 paul for a large commit 12:46 kados wow very large champagne :-) 12:46 paul my conclusion : it's a very very hard question. 12:45 kados hehe 12:45 paul http://www.box-evenement.com/site/photos_grandes_tailles/visuel/bouteille_champagne.jpg 12:45 kados paul: (since you will not be attending the meeting tonight ... do you have any results from your queries into where the non-profit should be located: france, us, or elsewhere?) 12:45 paul champagne for pierrick 1st commit ! 12:44 kados ahh ... quite huge in fact :-) 12:43 pierrick typo fixed: a ";" was missing at the end of Zebra connection retrieving in C4::Search->get_record 12:43 kados heh 12:43 pierrick something huge 12:43 kados pierrick: what was it? :-) 12:43 pierrick what a great modification I made !!! 12:42 kados pierrick: congrats 12:42 kados pierrick: woohoo! :-) 12:42 pierrick (I made my first commit, yeah :-) 12:41 kados hdl: error codes in the report 12:41 kados http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1048 12:40 kados serials creation don't work anymore in rel_2_2 :-) 12:39 hdl remind 12:39 hdl Can you remid me ? 12:39 hdl Seems I read it. 12:39 kados hdl: did you see my bug report on serials creation? 12:38 kados (also, authorities editor seems to truncate the 008 field) 12:35 kados but I have not investigated why 12:35 kados finally, the plugins do not seem to work in the auth editor ... 12:34 kados (subfield reordering and repeatability within a tag for both authorities editing and biblios editing will be a giant step as well) 12:32 kados (I'm quite excited about our level of conformance to MARC in 2.2.6) 12:32 kados I'm not sure what function they serve 12:32 kados however, for editing purposes 12:32 kados at least to the patron looking for items 12:31 kados as currently designed, the frameworks are used as 'search points' so they most closely resemble the 'headings' (ie, names, name/title combinations, uniform titles, or subjects. ) 12:30 paul I imagined thesaurus frameworks just to be able to have whet is in the 2nd digit : personal//corporate... 12:30 kados I think we are very close to supporting full MARC authorities -- closer than I thought 12:29 paul wow... /me never asked myself this question ;-) 12:29 kados paul: so which of these levels of the hierarchy are the 'Thesaurus Frameworks' designed to handle? 12:29 kados Reference and subdivision 12:29 kados 12:29 kados g 12:29 kados Established heading and subdivision 12:29 kados 12:29 kados f 12:29 kados Node label 12:29 kados 12:29 kados e 12:29 kados Subdivision 12:29 kados 12:29 kados d 12:28 kados Traced reference 12:28 kados 12:28 kados c 12:28 kados Untraced reference 12:28 kados 12:28 kados b 12:28 kados Established heading 12:28 kados 12:28 kados a 12:28 kados specifically position 9: 12:28 kados and finally, there are designations in the 008 fixed field 12:28 kados ie X00 == personal names X10 == corporate names, etc. 12:27 kados there are also content designation in the remainder of the tag 12:26 kados etc. 12:26 kados 4XX See from tracings 12:26 kados 3XX Complex see also references 12:26 kados 2XX Complex see references 12:26 kados 1XX Headings (authoritative and reference) 12:26 kados 0XX Standard numbers, classification numbers, codes 12:26 kados The variable data fields are grouped into blocks according to the first character of the tag, which identifies the function of the data within the field. The type of information in the field is identified by the remainder of the tag. The blocks are: 12:26 kados [snip]... 12:26 kados "All headings are one of the following types: names, name/title combinations, uniform titles, or subjects." 12:26 kados http://www.loc.gov/marc/uma/pt1-7.html#pt4 12:26 kados specifically this section: 12:25 kados http://www.loc.gov/marc/uma/ 12:25 kados this reference is quite useful: 12:24 kados (hint, a type of authority can hold several different headings) 12:24 kados or different authorities types? 12:23 kados are they to specify different authorities headings? 12:23 kados I also have a question about intended uses of the 'frameworks' in authorities 12:23 kados hmmm 12:23 paul (gg) 12:23 paul ok, ok, I resign ! you won ! 12:23 hdl and rejected form. 12:23 hdl parrallel form 12:23 hdl Associate from 12:23 hdl Main form 12:22 kados for instance, authorities from OCLC 12:22 hdl Maybe would it be useful to have 3 or 4 tabs : 12:22 kados in fact, MARC21 authority records can be quite long 12:22 hdl But paul, with MSC, I have some exemples where you have 5 or 6 subfields on the same page. 12:22 kados right 12:21 hdl and not only the fields that you needfor your authority. 12:21 hdl because they display every field. 12:21 hdl kados : yes 12:20 kados paul: for some reason, the default auth records are quite long in fact 12:20 paul and it don't need any DB modifs unless i'm missing something 12:20 paul modify auth editor to look like bib editor : of course. (except for tabs, that are useless I thought, an authority record is never so long that it needs tabs) 12:18 kados paul: may require some modif to the db as well ? 12:18 kados paul: can you modify the auth editor to work like the bib editor (with tabs, etc.) 12:17 kados paul: :-) 12:17 paul (that just require a link to be added to fulfill UN requirements ;-) ) 12:17 kados there are still some problems with the authorities editor 12:16 kados sent to koha-devel 12:16 kados ok ... I'll commit it along with some documentation 12:16 paul so, it's a great feature ! 12:16 kados paul: it will append any subfields that exist correctly 12:16 kados paul: and for the see (4XX) and seealso (5XX) 12:15 kados paul: the code follows MARC21 practice for determining the authorized heading (ie 1XX) 12:15 paul otherwise, I think it's really a good hack if it work for all MARC21. It should work for UNIMARC as well if I don't mind, as, i've been told that authorities are closed between UNIMARC And MARC21 12:14 kados paul: look at the 'Twain' example 12:14 paul * what append if there is another field/subfield that is not in your "template" ? 12:14 paul * how will it work if there is no "see also", or "see" ? 12:13 kados paul: with a new syspref for 'authoritiesheadings' 12:13 kados paul: I could commit it as an alternative without touching 'summary' 12:13 kados paul: the hard-coded example on opac.liblime.com will work with all MARC21 authorities records 12:13 paul pierrick : read private channel. 12:12 paul kados : right. 12:12 kados paul: it does not understand that this is a hierarchy 12:12 kados paul: [400a] will repeat right next to itself 12:12 kados paul: 100 $a 100 $d 100 $q 400 $a 400 $a 400 $d 12:11 kados paul: HOWEVER, the display will come out like this: 12:11 kados paul: [100a] [100d] [100q] [400a] [400d] 12:11 kados paul: the ISBD entry would look like this: 12:10 kados paul: 100 $a $d $q 400 $a $d 400 $a 12:10 kados paul: however, if you have a record like the 'Lewis' record: 12:09 kados paul: it will work fine for this example because there is no repeatability 12:09 kados paul: [100a] [100c] [400a] [400d] [500a] [500d] 12:09 kados paul: in the ISBD method you can say you want those to display as: 12:08 kados paul: 100 $a $c 400 $a $d 500 $a $d 12:08 paul (je suis le paul poulain co-auteur et Release Manager de Koha ;-) ) 12:08 kados paul: it has the following entries in MARC: 12:08 kados paul: NAME heading 12:07 kados paul: look at the auth heading for 'Twain' 12:07 fsouchon tu bosses où? 12:07 paul (c'est mon business Koha, donc si tu veux qu'on fasse une affaire ensemble ;-) ) 12:07 kados paul: I will try to explain 12:06 paul kados : ??? 12:06 fsouchon merci paul 12:06 kados paul: the problem with ISBD is it can't handle repeatability correctly 12:06 fsouchon mais là le choix ne nous appartient pas 12:06 paul and if you need more help : 04 91 31 45 19 12:06 fsouchon je susi fondamentalement contre M$ et sa saube de IIS 12:06 paul you're welcome fsouchon 12:06 fsouchon paul, 12:06 paul you could use the summary column. 12:06 fsouchon merci pa 12:06 kados paul: (what used to be called 'summary') 12:06 pierrick on my working copy of HEAD, many pages produce "Internal Server Error". Only very few log in koha-erro_log, just "Premature end of script headers: systempreferences.pl, referer: http://plegall:8080/cgi-bin/koha/admin/admin-home.pl". How do I turn on log verbosity? 12:05 kados paul: yep 12:05 paul you mean the "authorized headings column ? 12:05 kados paul: it does not use the ISBD style as ISBD is flawed in this instance 12:05 kados paul: the display for that is hard-coded 12:05 paul men, you rock ! 12:05 kados paul: do a seach for 'NAME' Lewis 12:04 kados paul: there is now a authorities heading search on the opac 12:04 kados paul: http://opac.liblime.com/ 12:04 kados paul: specifically the display 12:04 kados paul: I've been hacking on authorities 12:04 kados hi pierrick 12:04 kados great 12:03 paul yep, of course (4PM in France) 12:03 pierrick hello Joshua 12:03 paul hello joshua 12:03 kados paul: are you still around? 11:57 paul (et je ne crois pas qu'il y ait un seul développeur de Koha sous windows... donc ca va pas changer... l'OPAC est testé sous IE, mais en toute fin de développement) 11:57 paul si elle marche sous IE, c'est "par hasard" 11:57 paul enfin, l'interface bibliothécaire est garantie sous mozilla. 11:56 paul mais windows/apache, ca fonctionne, moyennant de l'huile de coude. 11:56 paul (et compliqué à installer sous windows) 11:56 paul le susnommé process utilise Net::z3950 qui est tout cassé sous IIS. 11:56 paul pour ca, un process perl sur le serveur Koha va interroger les serveurs z3950 11:55 paul Le client z3950 de Koha permet d'interroger les serveurs z3950 tout autour de la planète. 11:55 fsouchon ça passe? 11:55 fsouchon mais sur client web http 11:55 paul je précise : 11:55 fsouchon oki 11:55 paul perl Net::z3950 qui est tout cassé en IIS 11:55 fsouchon Moz /IE 11:55 fsouchon non c pour du client web léger 11:55 paul là, ca marche po. 11:54 fsouchon quel est le problème? 11:54 paul et pas question de mettre un client z3950 dessus 11:54 fsouchon arf 11:54 paul c'est possible, mais ca marche fort mal. 11:54 fsouchon c petit :) 11:54 fsouchon c né d'une spécialisation de ntsys en opensource 11:54 paul bon, pour répondre à la question : 11:54 paul inconnu au bataillon. 11:54 fsouchon c nouveau 11:54 fsouchon alternancesoft 11:54 paul un nom, un nom... 11:54 fsouchon est-ce possible? 11:54 fsouchon donc 11:54 fsouchon une SSLL 11:54 fsouchon ma boite 11:53 paul c'est qui "on" ? 11:53 paul sauf si kados est levé ! 11:53 fsouchon mais en IIS :/ 11:53 fsouchon on a uen demande 11:53 paul (et même que ca pour tout dire.) 11:53 fsouchon lol 11:53 paul plein de frenchies aujourdh'ui... 11:53 fsouchon bonjour 11:53 paul fsouchon bonjour 11:53 fsouchon Is it possible to run Koha via a IIS server ? 11:53 paul pierrick : koha >> parameters >> sytempreferences is your friend 11:52 fsouchon hello 11:52 pierrick where do I set the default intranet theme ? (I brutally modified C4::Output::themeLanguage, but it's obviously not the correct method) 11:02 pierrick ;-) 11:02 pierrick How could it be slower? 11:01 paul for CVS it's really faster than sourceforge ! 11:00 pierrick If you knew the speed of Gna! infrastructure :-)...