IRC log for #koha, 2006-02-26

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:59 kados hi all
13:01 kados paul: can you help me to get authorities/thesaurus working for
13:03 kados hdl: are you here?
13:03 hdl yes
13:03 hdl If I can help
13:04 kados I would like to get authorities/thesaurus working for
13:04 kados but I don't understand how to do so ...
13:04 hdl Do you hav authorities ?
13:05 hdl Can you search them ?
13:06 kados I have not done anything with authorities
13:06 kados don't have authorities
13:07 kados can't I build authorities list from existing data?
13:11 hdl You can if you use rebuild_thesaurus ? paul pls confirm....
13:12 hdl or with the script I sent you.
13:12 hdl But you have to have subjects in your biblios.
13:14 hdl see
13:14 hdl with NC : (common nouns) for subjects.
13:15 hdl Subjects are supposed to be contained in 606$a
13:15 hdl And authority will be constructed in field 250.
13:16 hdl NC : Noms Communs in French.
13:16 hdl You should create a new thesarus category called ....
13:16 hdl with an authtag to report, a summary...
13:17 kados in MARC21 I think subjects are spread throughout 6XX fields
13:17 kados maybe concentrated in 650$a
13:19 paul hello everybody
13:19 paul joshua : you'll see in koha-devel that tümer really rocks.
13:20 paul he just sended me a file for a better inventory system.
13:23 thd kados: subjects are also in 6XX in UNIMARC
13:24 kados excellent!
13:24 paul (hdl : faire un tour dans ta BAL)
13:25 kados paul: what does it mean 'inventory system'?
13:27 thd kados: I have made Koha authorities work before and could explain how.  Building them requires making MARC 21 versions of the  UNIMARC building scripts.
13:28 kados thd: ok
13:28 kados thd: do you have those? or shall I build my own?
13:28 kados thd: also, will it solve the '650x' problem? :-)
13:28 kados :-)
13:29 thd kados: However, as I suggested before you could import real rich authorities and with a working
13:30 thd kados: What is the 650X problem?
13:30 kados thd: did you see the explaination on the koha list?
13:31 kados thd: what's your email address?
13:31 kados thd: ?
13:32 kados thd: just sent you two emails
13:33 kados thd: sent to me by Brooke Johnson
13:33 kados thd: which explain the '650x' problem
13:33 kados thd: though I can't say I fully understand it
13:34 thd kados: do you mean the problem where 650 $a 650$a $x 650 $a $x looked like 650 $a$a$x$a$x in the MARC view but now fixed with a preference?
13:34 kados thd: no
13:34 owen kados: I didn't see an explanation on the koha list, I just saw your reply
13:35 kados right ... just realized she didn't forward it to the list ... dou!
13:45 thd kados: Yes, I had understood that problem as being fundamental to how the indexes work in Koha 2.X.
13:47 kados I've forwarded it to the devel list
13:47 kados 'indexes' being the marc_word table :-)
13:47 kados thd: could you explain the problem again to me?
13:47 kados owen: I'll forward them to you too
13:48 thd kados: That is why it is important that a search for John Smith will not match a book co-authored by Fred Smith and John Lake.
13:49 thd kados: under Koha 3.0 the above should not match.
13:49 kados right
13:49 kados because subject searching will be a 'phrase search'
13:49 kados not a 'word search'
13:49 kados if I"m understanding correctly
13:49 kados I still dont' get what 605x has to do with anything
13:49 kados 650x even
13:50 thd kados: Unless the user selects a special checkbox to add the statement of responsibility to the search.
13:51 thd kados: It could be good to have that extra user option for finding editor, illustrator, and other names that often do not appear elsewhere in the record.
13:52 thd kados: paul even has a library which has been using the statement of responsibility as the exclusive place to Esther author information.
13:53 thd s/Esther/enter/
13:54 thd kados: to explain the 650 x problem think of how Koha 2 uses its indexes.
13:54 kados hmmm, I guess I just don't understand subjects well enough to understand
13:54 kados should 650x be treated differently than 650a?
13:55 thd kados: You could even use author names as in my example.
13:56 thd kados: however equally two or more authors contribute to a book only one is allowed in the main author entry 1XX.
13:57 thd kados: The others have to go in an additional authors fields 7XX.
14:01 thd kados: The Koha bibliographic framework for MARC 21 should have 100 $a linked to or whatever that column is.
14:05 thd kados: 700 $a would be linked to however you can really ignore that link altogether.
14:06 thd kados: Ignore that especially so that the explanation does not seem unduly complex.
14:07 thd kados: author searching in Koha 2 does not require
14:08 thd kados: Author searching uses the see also references in 100 $a
14:10 kados owen: did you get the messages?
14:10 thd kados: so in the see also references you should have other 1XX in case the main author was not a personal author, as well as 7XX to catch all the additional authors.
14:10 owen Yes
14:10 kados owen: any light to shed? :-)
14:12 thd kados: So when Koha searches for the author what it is really searching on is a list of all the words in the see also subfields mushed together.
14:14 thd kados: what it ought to do is to search each separate field in the see also list separately to find matches.
14:15 owen Actually, kados, I'm finding it a little hard to understand what kind of searches Brooke is using as examples
14:15 kados owen: glad I'm not the only one :-)
14:15 kados thd: that's 'phrase' searching rather than 'word' searching
14:15 paul kados : why does[…]
14:15 kados thd: I get that part
14:16 paul give me a "no image avaialble" ?
14:16 kados ?
14:16 kados paul: 127 is non-routable
14:16 paul ( instead of i mean
14:16 kados ahh :-)
14:17 paul (i've reintroduced the - in the isbn, but not for amazon service call)
14:17 kados paul: I get 'Object not found!'
14:17 kados paul: can't load the page
14:17 kados paul: I think the amazon module strips out the - automatically
14:17 kados paul: but I can check ... hang on
14:17 paul mmm... could my firewall be closed ?
14:17 thd kados: So in the example of an author search for John Smith it should match only if John Smith were in a single 1XX or a single 7XX but will match a book co-authored by Fred Smith in 100 and John Lake in 700.
14:18 paul object not found => where ? when reaching ?
14:18 paul or in amazon ?
14:18 thd kados: the issue is not about phrase matching.
14:18 kados
14:19 thd kados: Phrase matching would only make the search more unreliable.
14:19 paul everything open. does it work better now ?
14:20 thd kados: the issue is about doing word matching using the contents of only one field at a time.
14:20 kados paul: no :/
14:20 paul strange
14:20 kados[…]
14:20 kados is url right?
14:20 paul hehe.
14:20 paul NO
14:20 kados ahh
14:20 paul it's :9006
14:20 paul
14:20 thd kados: There are however phrase matching issues for subjects.
14:20 kados got it
14:21 kados paul: so what's the problem?
14:21 paul + it seems there is no handling of "SIMILAR_PRODUCTS" in npl templates
14:21 kados paul: you expect an image to show up for that book?
14:21 paul there is no picture, even if the isbn is valid & english
14:21 paul yes. I expected
14:22 kados paul: probably amazon does not have an image for this item
14:22 paul hehe...
14:22 paul it works...
14:22 paul[…]
14:22 paul has a review !
14:22 kados paul: :-)
14:23 kados still no image though :-)
14:23 owen kados, I do see /part/ of the issue that Brooke explains
14:23 kados paul: add the opacsearchresults.tmpl amazon images stuff
14:23 kados paul: to default, then you can tell which items will have images from the results page
14:24 kados owen: do tell
14:24 owen Took me a bit to find an example, but look here: http://search.athenscounty.lib[…]
14:24 owen The linked subjects are 'flour mills,' 'grain,' and 'frontier and pioneer life'
14:25 kados right
14:25 owen But if you look at the MARC record, you see that the actual subjects are more complex:
14:25 owen Flour-mills -- History -- Juvenile literature
14:25 kados right
14:26 kados I don't quite get the concept of a subdivision
14:26 thd kados: Owens example is using an old version of Koha.
14:26 kados thd: right
14:26 owen So following the 'flower-mills' link won't really give you matching items, it will give you a more general set
14:26 paul YESSS... search "linux"
14:26 owen The subdivisions are refining characteristics
14:26 kados paul: wohoo!
14:27 kados paul: still no image on details screen
14:27 kados paul: make a new variable
14:27 kados paul: called 'amazonisbn'
14:27 owen So, not just, "Flour mills," but /history/ of Flour Mills. And not just history of flour mills, but /juvenile literature/ history of flour mills.
14:27 kados paul: that s/-//g;
14:28 kados paul: should solve the detail screen prob
14:28 kados paul: don't forget about the 'search inside' feature
14:28 kados owen: it seems to me it should be:
14:29 kados Juvenile literature
14:29 kados |
14:29 kados --- History
14:29 kados     |
14:29 thd paul: please commit that code if you have fixed a breakable aspect of amazon web services data.
14:30 kados    ---- Flour mills
14:30 kados owen: is that right?
14:30 kados owen: or are Juv lit and Hist at the same level of the hierarchy?
14:31 owen I think it just depends on how you look at it.  The classification as it is in this example leads with the most useful "entry point"
14:32 owen But it is an unusual way to look at a hierarchy if you're not used to the librarian-way
14:32 kados I guess I just don't understand how anyone could formulate a search in a library catalog using that scheme
14:32 thd owen it is partly hierarchical and partly faceted.
14:33 kados without somethig like CQL
14:33 kados or the advanced boolean MARC search
14:34 kados paul: when you get a sec ... I have some data without entries in the 090$c ... and bulkmarcimport doesn't seem to add these entries in head
14:34 thd kados: Did you understand my explanation about author searching and why it is not the lack of phrase searching that is the problem?
14:35 owen kados: this issue is probably part of the reason why OPACs are thought to be hard to use
14:35 kados paul: wait ... not sure that is the problem
14:36 kados paul: here's the error:
14:36 kados DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Column 'biblioitemnumber' cannot be null at C4/ line 1390.
14:36 kados MARC::Record=HASH(0x8b1151c) at C4/ line 1454.
14:36 kados 952 at C4/ line 1455.
14:36 kados MARC::Field=HASH(0x8b3e79c) at C4/ line 1456.
14:36 owen Imagine how much better searching we could offer if we indexed the content of each book the same way Google indexes the content of each web site?
14:36 paul sorry kados, but I really have to leave now.
14:36 kados paul: ok no prob
14:36 paul maybe on monday.
14:36 kados paul: I'll investigate
14:36 kados paul: have a good weekend
14:36 paul (tuesday - thursday, i'll be in Paris)
14:36 kados k
14:36 thd owen: Google hardly uses fielded indexes at all.
14:36 paul thursday = working with Pierrick, that begins it's job at Ineo ;-) )
14:37 kados woohoo
14:37 kados thd: I'm trying to understand the subject prob first :-)
14:37 thd owen: a Google search on library records would be this problem multiplied many times over.
14:37 kados i guess I don't understand what brooke expects
14:38 owen kados: At the very least, to have subjects link properly from the detail screen
14:38 owen I'm not sure what the answer is in terms of searching.
14:39 thd kados: They are the same problem, however subjects can add an additional layer of complexity to the problem.
14:39 owen It's part of the reason why it might be better to offer a completely different kind of search when it comes to subject
14:40 kados I liked the old Koha subject headings search
14:40 kados where you do a search, it pulls up a list of possible headings
14:41 kados and you pick what you want ... then it gives you results
14:41 kados do you think that's what she's looking for?
14:41 kados thd: what's the additional layer?
14:41 owen I don't know about her, but I certainly think that is a valuable way to handle subject searches specifically
14:41 kados I still don't know how you would handle the hierarchy though
14:42 owen paul's dictionary search is somewhat similar, but not user-friendly enough for use by the general public, I think
14:42 kados I'm guessing there are many instances like the above when it's not clear
14:42 kados which is the parent which is the child and which are siblings
14:43 kados maybe the thing to do is get authorities going on
14:43 kados thd: can you help me with that?
14:43 paul_away (the problem on opac-detail is dashed isbn.
14:43 paul_away i'll solve it on monday
14:43 kados thd: you said you had got it going before
14:43 kados paul_away: simple solution is to have another variable for 'amazonisbn'
14:43 paul_away right.
14:43 kados paul_away: with s/-///g;
15:05 thd kados: well I have been timed out for a while having a conversation with myself.
15:07 thd <thd> kados: Look at the same issue for authors it will help to understand the issue for subjects which I will explain.
15:07 thd <thd> kados: Try to understand the issue for authors first because it is potentially more confusing for subjects.
15:07 thd <thd> kados: in every case each field should be searched separately for matches whether they are repeating fields like 650 and 700 or non-repeating like 100.
15:08 thd <thd> kados: If you toss all the words in 1XX subfields into the same index with the words from 7XX subfields you have matches across field boundaries to a search.
15:08 thd <thd> kados: Similarly, If you toss all the words in multiple 650 subfields into the same index you have matches across field boundaries to a search.
15:08 thd <thd> kados: Imagine in our subject heading scheme we have subject headings for science and subject headings for history.
15:08 thd <thd> kados: Imagine also in our subject heading scheme we have subject subdivision science and subject subdivision history.
15:08 thd <thd> kados: So we might have 650 $a Science for the most general books about science and 650 $a History for the most general books about history.
15:08 thd <thd> kados: We might also have 650 $a Science $x History for books about the history of science and 650 $a History $x Science for books about scientific techniques to uncover historical evidence.
15:11 thd kados: are you with me?  The way that authorities work in Koha 2 will not help.
15:15 thd .me missed the kados goes to get lunch
15:16 thd kados: ping me when you are back from lunch
16:02 kados owen-away: you around?
16:02 kados thd: I'm back
16:03 thd kados: Do you see the posts I reposted after I reconnected?
16:03 kados yep
16:04 kados so if I see a $x I should use that as 'of' whatever is in $a
16:04 kados ie Science of History
16:05 kados honestly, does ANY ILS handle that correctly?
16:05 thd kados: so if you search for Science--History you find History--Science
16:05 kados what would be the 'correct' way to handle it?
16:05 kados ahh
16:05 kados y'know, I don't think even zebra can do that
16:06 thd kados: As far as I know most ILS systems handle this correctly
16:06 kados since you can't match across field boundries
16:06 kados thd: could you give me an example?
16:07 thd kados: you need to search separate indexes that are not all keyed to one mushy jumble.
16:07 kados I'd like to see an opac that does this correctly
16:08 kados so I can get a sense of what folks are expecting
16:08 thd kados: the old MELVYL system did this correctly and I have copies f the manual describing how the system worked internally.
16:09 kados thd: I'd rather see a live OPAC if you have a link :-)
16:10 thd kadios: any live OPAC should work the same.
16:10 owen Here's a Spydus catalog if you're interested
16:10 thd kados: I only have the internal design for the MELVYL system.
16:10 owen
16:13 thd kados: Endeavor's voyager works just the same.
16:13 owen The same as what?
16:15 thd owen: The same as MELVYL or any other OPAC in restricting fielded searches to matching a single field and not across the boundary of multiple repeated fields.
16:15 owen Can you give an example?
16:16 kados owen: I kinda wish we kept the old spydus system going
16:16 kados owen: then we could compare with the same data
16:17 owen I know what you mean
16:17 owen ...but not enough to really wish it ;)
16:17 kados owen: so I click on 'subject'
16:17 kados hehe
16:17 thd owen: see my example about authors from a couple of hours ago..
16:17 kados I type in 'history
16:18 kados and I get a list of history headings
16:18 thd kados: So in the example of an author search for John Smith it should match only if John Smith were in a single 1XX or a single 7XX but will match a book co-authored by Fred Smith in 100 and John Lake in 700 in Koha 2.
16:18 kados this looks like a subject authorities list
16:18 thd owen see above
16:19 kados thd: it's a fundamentally differnt search
16:19 kados thd: in fact, not a search at all ... but a 'browse'
16:20 thd kados: However, the way that authorities work in Koha 2 will not solve this problem.
16:20 thd kados: It is a search followed by a browse of matches.
16:22 thd kados: In Koha 2, the authority value is limited to a single subfield.
16:22 thd kados: paul actually has no plans to change that for 3.0
16:24 thd kados: That kills searches for 650 $a $x or anything more complex than one subfield in Koha using authorities.
16:25 thd kados: so it only works about half of the time with the general population of records in the world.
16:25 kados ok
16:25 kados so what we need to do
16:26 kados is build authorities lists based on 650$a and 650$x
16:26 kados right?
16:26 kados are there other tags/subfields to worry about too?
16:27 thd kados: this problem is not strictly an authorities problem.
16:27 kados thd: hang on ... another question if you have a sec
16:27 thd kados: and yes the list of subfields is longer
16:27 kados thd: steven just wrote:
16:27 kados Koha doesn't -- that is, at
16:27 kados +present, it CAN'T -- make use of the required $6 linking subfield.*
16:28 kados thd: is that a framework problem or is it true?
16:29 thd kados; $6 is unmanaged in the poor default framework that comes with Koha now.
16:29 kados thd: lets get it working so I can respond to him
16:29 thd kados: I have switched it to managed.
16:29 kados thd: I'm sick of his bullshit
16:30 thd kados: his comments are correct to the extent of his investigation.
16:30 kados thd: right, but instead of asking how to set up the framework, he frames it in terms of a inability
16:30 kados thd: which makes Koha look bad
16:31 kados thd: anyway, lets get it working on so I can respond to him asap
16:31 kados thd: this would be used to link two different language records right?
16:31 kados thd: ie, two records cataloged in a different language?
16:31 kados thd: which tag would have the $6?
16:32 thd kados: no other system asks the user to do as much configuration of software to have correct behaviour but we are fixing that.
16:32 kados thd: yep, we are :-)
16:33 kados I assume $6 in tag 800 right?
16:34 kados should link be 245$a ?
16:35 thd kados: here is an example
16:35 thd 245
16:35 thd 10$6880-03$aSosei to kak&omacr;$bNihon Sosei Kak&omacr;Gakkai shi.
16:35 thd 880
16:35 thd 10$6245-03/$1$a[Title in Japanese script]: $b[Subtitle in Japanese script].
16:36 kados so 880$6 should be linked to 245 $a right?
16:37 thd kados: each refers back to the other in this example
16:37 kados I see
16:37 kados does Koha's Link feature work well here?
16:37 kados I'm adding an 880 tag
16:37 kados is 880 repeatable?
16:38 thd kados: yes 880 is repeatable
16:38 kados what's a good label for 880?
16:39 thd kados: which Koha link feature are you asking about/
16:39 kados when editing subfields
16:39 kados I see a 'link' entry
16:39 kados but I'm not sure what it's for
16:40 kados ok ... thx
16:40 kados so ... valid subfields?
16:40 kados $6 for starters
16:40 kados any other?
16:41 kados $a-z it looks like
16:41 kados and $0-5, $7-9
16:41 kados[…]c/nlr/nlr8xx.html
16:41 kados don't know what 'same as associated field' means
16:41 thd kados: That link feature in the bibliographic frameworks will allow searching from a link and then browsing a list of results returned from the linked field/subfield pairs returned
16:42 kados thd: so the 'link' feature is not what we're looking for?
16:43 thd kados: That link feature functions similarly to how Koha searches authorities except that authority searches will find the authorised value for tracings and references of unauthorised forms
16:43 kados thd: so how do we set up 880 $6 in such a way that I can respond properly to Steven?
16:44 thd kados: Simply allow it to be managed in Koha.
16:45 thd kados: I am sorry that building the framework has taken so long.  I did not appreciate how many fields were actually missing from the existing default.
16:46 thd kados: allow $6 to be managed in koha.
16:46 kados already have :-)
16:46 kados writing a response now :-)
16:46 thd kados: I could send you an incomplete SQL file but I have not come to 880 yet.
16:47 kados thd: take your time and get it right ...
16:52 thd kados: I am editing it in vim as I had intended.   I started in the user interface until I had a significant set of values with which to work.  The user interface seemed a little slow.  Tabbing between fields sequentially only worked sometimes, and something is preventing saving repeatability at the same time as creating a new subfield.  I fixed one minor user interface bug and then quit using the user interface.
16:54 thd kados: syntax colouring should save me from any careless editing.
16:54 thd kados: Although I did almost lose 266 lines when I fell asleep at the keyboard last night :)
16:56 thd kados: everything will be thoroughly double checked.  My early work with the user interface problems will have been triple checked.
16:57 kados thd: sounds very comprehensive :-)
16:57 thd kados: When it is done.  If people loose data in Koha the default framework will have nothing to do with it.
16:57 kados excellent!
16:59 thd kados:
17:01 thd kados: We ed a plan for how to get the several different frameworks into existing Koha installations for 2.2.6.
17:02 thd kados: currently the updater would not do that and you do not want to overwrite the modified frameworks that people may have created for themselves.
17:04 thd kados: The updater needs to be able to install frameworks into a namespace that will not interfere with existing local frameworks that people should stop using once they have a good set of default frameworks.
17:06 thd kados: The default frameworks just need a special tag at the beginning of the name to make it very unlikely that they will clobber any frameworks that the user may have made themselves.
17:07 thd kados: However, the updater will not add any new frameworks as it is designed now.
17:08 thd kados: are you still there?
17:09 kados thd: yep
17:10 kados thd: trying to manage the mailing list which bounced my message
17:10 kados but it's currently timeing out
17:10 kados arrg :-)
17:10 thd kados: The koha list is timing out?
17:10 kados thd: the management interface
17:11 kados thd: i think the upgrade path is as follows:
17:11 kados thd: replicate existing framework as 'local'
17:11 kados thd: replace default with 'Standard'
17:12 kados thd: but honestly, I don't think anyone has been messing with their frameworks
17:12 kados thd: so it probably won't be a problem
17:12 kados thd: here's a question
17:12 kados thd: what if I have a 'search also' defined differently in two frameworks
17:12 thd kados: someone needs to mess with the updater so that any new frameworks can be added.
17:13 kados thd: does Koha just use the default no matter what?
17:13 kados thd: I spoke to paul about that ... he's going to help me to get this working in 2.2.6 before it is released
17:13 thd kados: that is a question for paul or experimentation.
17:15 thd kados: what was paul's answer about the differently defined see also values?
17:15 kados thd: I forgot to ask him
17:18 thd kados: I think that you now have to select a framework for editing a record.  The frameworks system has no way of determining which framework to apply in advance of your choosing.
17:19 thd kados: If you commit your plugins I can have those already included in the default framework on which I am working.
17:21 kados thd: ok ... I think they need a bit more work first though
17:21 kados thd: I'd like to get some relationships working
17:21 thd kados: There is an issue about variance in the holdings fields that does need to be carefully applied when adding new frameworks to existing installations.
17:23 thd kados: Whatever fields and configuration that people are now using for holdings needs to be selected and added to the standard frameworks.
17:24 thd kados: That may be the most likely point of framework variation.
17:24 kados thd: I really think it's very rare for those to be adjusted at all
17:24 kados thd: and manual adjustment of those isn't hard anyway
17:25 kados thd: it's reasonable to expect folks to do that to get the advantages of the new framework
17:26 thd kados: such unadventurous libraries you have which have otherwise been bold enough to take the Koha adventure ride :)
17:29 kados thd: are you on the koha-win32 list?
17:30 kados thd: check out the latest post by Carol Ku
17:30 thd kados: I just reminded myself that issues involving $6 identifying which is the correct 880 to reference are one reason why the record editor needs to be able to reorder fields and not just subfields.
17:30 kados thd: it has to do with the $6
17:31 kados I quote:
17:31 kados i think the $6 linking field is different from a regular subfield a, b or c
17:31 kados    etc.
17:31 kados    In MARC, all the information on the book will be stored in the native
17:31 kados    language in tag 880.  Then they use $6 linking field to tie 880 to tag 100
17:31 kados    for Name etc... so e.g. 880 $6100 a.... so this tag means information
17:31 kados    stored here is the author name (designated by code $6100) in e.g Chinese.
17:31 kados    $6 is not a regular subfield....
17:31 thd kados: I am not on that list but I should be for all the help I have given to Carl off list with getting Koha configured correctly on MS Windows.
17:31 kados thd: so is that a proper use for the 'link' feature in Koha?
17:34 thd kados: Koha has no feature designed to substitute one value for another in the display based upon MARC concepts.
17:35 kados thd: and that's what carol is discussing?
17:36 kados thd: I don't get it ...
17:36 thd kados: the link feature would allow you to do for other fields what you can already do with '...' in the OPAC search for a few fields in the original Koha SQL tables.
17:36 kados thd: which is what?
17:38 thd kados: the advanced OPAC search page allows you to search for matches returned from in the '...' link next to the author search box.
17:39 thd kados: you then choose the author you want from that list.
17:39 kados right
17:39 thd kados: the ordinary search just fins you all the biblio records matching your search.
17:40 thd s/fins/finds/
17:40 kados I understand that
17:40 kados but what does that have to do with 880$6?
17:41 kados (and incidentally, that search doesn't really do anything since once you find what you're looking for and then actually do the search, it just returns results as it normally would)
17:42 thd kados: the subfield link feature allows you to control similar behaviour.
17:43 thd kados: I did not appreciate that the end result was the same.  Maybe it is not always the same.
17:43 kados thd: it is :-)
17:44 thd kados: But there is nothing in that feature to Help the OPAC display a special Character set which is what Carol wants.
17:46 thd kados: Carl needs cataloguing in Chinese.  She has Koha 2 running in UTF-8 so she can catalogue in Chinese.
17:47 thd kados: I was corresponding with her a few times a week until the nonsense in New Jersey over $1.25 started to become very serious.
17:48 thd kados: I have not written back to her to explain my disappearance.
17:50 thd kados: She wants the OPAC to use $6 to display character encoding according to rules for the language specified in the corresponding 880.
17:51 thd kados: Koha is not going to do that for her yet because it has no mechanism set up for that.
17:52 thd kados: That would be late stage character set management.
17:53 thd kados: i need to get MARC-8 to UTF-8 working before going on to more difficult problems.
17:54 kados thd: actually, that's already done :
17:54 kados thd: :-)
17:55 thd kados: Assisting Carol is further complicated by my not knowing Chinese and not having the correct glyphs installed for some examples she has sent.
17:56 kados thd: since Carol's system is already utf-8 she shouldn't need to have multiple char sets working on the same page
17:56 kados thd: encoding sets I mean
17:56 kados she should be able to view chinese and english together
17:56 kados thd: I took two years of Chinese btw :-)
17:56 thd kados: yes she can
17:58 thd kados: you need great patience to help her.  She is a MS Windows user with very limited experience managing computer systems in a sophisticated manner.
17:58 kados thd:[…]c/nlr/nlr8xx.html
17:59 kados thd: it seems that the 880 subfields
17:59 kados thd: rely on associated fields for their labels
17:59 thd kados: I have written very careful step by step instructions to her from my memory of how Windows systems work.
17:59 kados thd: I suppose we'll have to just set up very generic labels in the framework
18:00 kados thd: right?
18:00 kados thd: I still don't get what the difference between 'Link' and 'search also' is
18:01 kados thd: in Koha's subfields constraints
18:04 thd kados: character set encoding is not the whole problem because there are language specific rules to how to read and dismay the characters that you have once you have them correctly encoded.
18:06 thd kados: also the issue has to be addressed where remote OPAC the user does not have a system that allows them to enter Unicode.
18:06 thd kados: That is not a problem for Chinese because Unicode is absolutely required unless it has been romanised.
18:09 thd kados: There is still the problem in the US and France where legacy environments that remote users may not support Unicode so that translating query strings is necessary.
18:12 thd kados: I have not really experimented with the frameworks link feature well but I understood what hdl identified as its function which is mentioned in the help file when he tried to explain it to you very briefly.
18:14 thd kados: I presume that as see also applies to basic searches so link applies to '...' searches.
18:14 kados thd: how to read and display chars won't affect Chines as chinese unicode is left-to-right as english is
18:15 kados ahh ... the help file ... forgot about that :-)
18:16 thd kados: Yes, that may be much less of an issue for Chinese than for the languages with more complex rules for how to interpret a set of characters for display.
18:17 thd kados: That help message is not very helpful unless you know what it means already.
18:17 kados thd: the help seems to indicate you can use the 'link' field to manage 'biblios connected to biblios'
18:18 kados thd: For example, put 011a in 464$x, will find the serial that was previously with this issn. With the 4xx pligin, you get a powerful tool to manage biblios connected to biblios
18:18 thd kados: That help message is translated from French.
18:18 kados right
18:18 kados I think it could be easily used as a way to show relationships between two records
18:20 thd kados: $6 is a relationship in one record
18:20 kados right
18:23 thd kados: I see that can be used to find serials across title changes when the ISSN changes as well without even actually using authorities.
18:23 kados right
18:24 chris its actually quite a nice feature
18:24 kados I wish I could get some demos going of this kind of functionality
18:24 kados but I don't understand it well enough from the user's point of view
18:24 kados incidentally Carol got her Koha going with utf-8
18:24 thd kados: well I will include it in my default framework.
18:24 kados thd: examples?
18:25 thd kados: examples of what?
18:25 kados thd: I would like to get authorities working on my demo
18:25 kados thd: as well as the 'link' feature
18:26 thd kados: Carol had Koha working in UTF-8 long before I helped her thanks to chris
18:26 chris yay me
18:26 chris heheh
18:26 kados chris: so what was involved ?
18:27 chris changing all the templates
18:27 kados chris: it might be useful for demo purposes for to be in utf-8
18:27 kados chris: so I could throw some chinese in there for instance
18:27 chris right
18:27 chris if the templates are served as utf-8
18:27 chris then it just works
18:27 thd kados: When I dropped off the map Carol seemed to be having MARC-8 problems for importing records that were not already in UTF-8.
18:28 kados huh ... so what about the probs paul's been having?
18:28 kados chris: and what about the data in the database?
18:28 chris the data in the database is fine
18:28 chris i think the problems paul is having is when you try to modify the data
18:29 thd kados: paul has been concerned with 100% UTF-8 compatibility even for keyed values and identifiers.
18:29 chris <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" />
18:29 chris change that
18:29 chris in the templates
18:29 kados chris: but that's just the meta tag ... what does that have to do with how the content is served up?
18:30 kados chris: isn't that determined by the script?
18:30 chris that will mean that it will come to the script as utf-8
18:30 chris when a user submits
18:31 chris as far as i can remember
18:31 thd kados: The problem paul has had relate not merely to record content stored but to the keys and identifiers for that content.
18:32 chris the data in the database displays fine
18:32 kados well ok ... is utf-8 now :-)
18:32 chris if you have a couple of marc records with utf-8 chars in them
18:33 chris we could try throwing them in
18:33 chris and then see how they display
18:33 thd kados: All the French accented characters become multibyte in UTF-8 where they wereonly one byte in ISO-8859.
18:34 chris or some french ones
18:36 thd It is now possible to obtain UTF-8 records from LC which will reduce many MARC-8 problems.
18:37 thd I am not certain how to or if it is yet possible to specify a request for UTF-8 records from the LC Z39.50 server.
18:37 kados ok both and are utf-8 now
18:38 kados thd: if you could request by leader position 6
18:38 kados thd: you could find out what charset they had
18:38 chris kados, you could try editing a record
18:39 chris and put some utf-8 chars in
18:39 chris and see what happens
18:39 kados chris: you mean do actualy cataloging? *gasp* :-)
18:39 chris heh
18:39 chris unless you have some records with some in
18:39 chris yeah
18:39 kados maybe google china?
18:40 thd kados: you can easily find out what the record has it requesting a preferred encoding in advance form multiple options about which I am wondering.
18:40 thd kados: you can obtain fine UTF-8 records readily over z39,50 from Russia.
18:43 chris hmm thats promising
18:43 chris it doesnt munge it
18:44 chris when i search on something it shows me the right characters
18:44 chris cant paste the characters in here tho :)
18:44 kados I can't seem to get it to copy/paste the cars
18:45 kados chars
18:45 kados correctly anyway
18:45 thd kados: the Russian State Library Z39.50 server is at
18:47 chris[…]
18:47 kados chris: so some of the chars won't paste, others will
18:47 chris i just edited this record in
18:47 chris it stuck
18:47 kados nice
18:47 chris and now you can search on those characters
18:47 chris and find that record
18:47 chris it seems to just work (tm)
18:47 kados sweet
18:48 kados I need to find a record that's utf-8, and has 880 setup
18:48 chris right
18:49 kados here we go:
18:49 kados
18:49 kados bad stylesheet, but view source
18:49 chris right
18:49 kados no 880 though
18:49 kados but I"ve got the pinyin for that in another record
18:49 chris yeah they just did what id do
18:50 kados ok ... I'm gonna do a test
18:50 chris catalogue in chinese
18:50 chris k
18:53 chris ahh that reply from carol makes more sense
18:53 thd kados: at the Russian State library you can find records in many different languages, but all in UTF-8.
18:55 kados thd: right, but my russian is much worse than my chinese :-)
18:56 thd kados: you can search in any language including English and find records.
18:57 thd kados: I think it may be the second largest library in the world.
18:57 chris can u search it fro the web thd?
18:58 thd chris: I expect so but I have only used it as a Z39.50 target
18:59 chris ahh ex libris
19:00 chris you can ask me questions about it, but i cant tell you :-)
19:02 thd chris: you signed a non-disclosure agreement with Ex-Libris?
19:02 thd chris:
19:03 chris yep i did thd
19:04 chris when i did some work for a consortia in colorado
19:04 chris i kinda got blindsided
19:04 chris severly jetlagged, not allowed in the building before i signed it
19:04 chris etc
19:05 thd chris: can they sue you for improving Koha to match their features? :)
19:05 chris ahh we surpassed them long ago :-)
19:05 chris there are things in koha i dont work on, just so there is no dange
19:05 chris r
19:07 kados thd: do you know if 880's subfields are repeatable?
19:07 kados thd: should they all be set up as repeatable fields?
19:07 thd chris: I have opted to not apply for work at some places that were liable to claim ownership of my own mind for years.
19:08 thd kados yes repeatable
19:08 chris its a good rule thd
19:08 thd sorry kados  misread your question
19:09 kados thd: it seems like 880 is a special case tag
19:09 kados thd: it relies on information from $6
19:09 kados thd: to decide how it will 'act'
19:09 chris ok its a lovely saturday morning here, i might go outside before i become a troglydite
19:10 kados chris: ciao :-)
19:10 chris cya's later
19:10 kados thd: am I correct?
19:10 thd kados: 880 just uses the subfields from the linked field and applies the repeatability from the linked field
19:11 thd have fun in the summer sun chris
19:12 thd kados: The framework should make all possible subfields available in 880 all subfields repeatable except $6
19:13 kados ok
19:13 kados but they can't have meaningful labels
19:13 kados since they will represent many different associated fields
19:14 thd kados: just label them  2, 3,  4, a, b c, etc.
19:16 kados thd: incidentially, I hope you're breaking things down into the proper tabs
19:16 kados thd: in your Standard MARC framework
19:16 kados thd: ie, 0X in tab 0, 1XX in 1, 2XX in 2, etc.
19:18 thd kados: of course until subfield reordering valid 880s cannot be created if $2 is needed because $6 needs to be the first one, as well as the related issue for repeatability. for repeatability
19:19 kados right ... so for now, we'll have to just not use subfiedsl 1-5 for the editor's sake
19:19 kados thd: but 2.2.6 will have subfields reordering
19:19 kados thd: as well as repeatability
19:19 kados thd: in fact, I could probably get that going this weekend
19:19 kados thd: it's quite trivial
19:19 thd kados yes I have been reassigning them to numeric tabs based on the first number
19:19 kados excellent!
19:20 kados :-)
19:20 kados thd: when would subfield 2 be needed in 880?
19:21 thd kados: All that we would have left to add is MARC-8 support and even Koha 2 can shout its virtues loudly.
19:24 thd kados: If the source of information for the field linked from 80 required identifying that source using $2
19:24 thd s/80/880/
19:26 thd kados: That would not necessarily be common but $6 is not common until you start working with records for languages outside the easy western European ones.
19:31 thd kados: actually having a lot of seldom used blank $6 subfields in the record editor will be likely to be seen as undesirable by many.  They can always use the frameworks to hide them again but then cannot get them when they need them unless there was something like the pop-up that I suggested to bring up seldom used subfields when needed.
19:31 thd kados: The same issue also applies to seldom used fields.
19:35 thd kados: $6 is never repeatable but it should be accessible when the occasion arises for libraries that occasionally need it and always present for libraries that always need it.
19:37 thd kados: Presently there is no way to support the occasional use of a field or subfield within one framework.
19:39 thd kados: The record editor could be changed to allow occasionally used fields and subfields to be brought up without cluttering the screen most of the time.  Furthermore when editing old records occasionally used fields already populated with values should always appear.
19:42 thd kados: more parameters to support more options like default record editor subfield grouping and ordering for adding new sequences of subfields; and visibility in the record editor but not in the OPAC could also be added easily.
19:53 kados thd: I notice that when repeating tags, the subfield order of the repeated tag is sometimes different than the original
19:54 thd kados: what do you mean exactly?
19:54 kados thd: also, if a tag is repeated, but empty, it is still preserved
19:54 kados thd: observe:
19:54 kados[…]
19:54 kados scroll down to the second 880
19:55 kados the first 880 has the correct subfield order:
19:55 kados 6
19:55 kados a
19:55 kados the second has
19:55 kados a
19:55 kados 6
19:55 kados c
19:55 kados very strange
19:57 thd kados: the second is 942 not 880
19:58 thd kados: sorry, I think I have the wrong link I only see one populate 880
19:58 kados ?
19:58 kados check again, there are two
19:59 kados wait ... I deleted it
19:59 kados but notice that they persist though still blank
19:59 thd kados: you mean two $6 one in 100 and one in 880
20:00 thd kados: Do you think that the blank 880 $a have a blank pace in them?
20:00 thd s/pace/space/
20:04 kados they didn't
20:04 kados so Koha's saving them for some reason even if there's no data
20:04 kados In fact, it's saving a bunch of fields for which there is no data
20:04 kados just look through all the blank fields in that record
20:05 kados they shouldn't show up because they don't exist in that record
20:05 kados I'm gonna have a look at the code
20:06 thd kados: could it be the difference between a null and and empty string?
20:07 kados yea
20:07 kados could be
20:07 thd kados: I can see odd behaviour in the subfield structure editor where sometimes NULL has been recorded and sometimes an empty string.
20:09 thd kados: I will simplify what I found to one or the other with a global search and replace.
20:33 kados chris: you happen to be around?
20:33 kados chris: I suspect this is our prob:
20:33 kados my @tags = $input->param('tag');
20:33 kados        my @subfields = $input->param('subfield');
20:33 kados        my @values = $input->param('field_value');
20:34 thd kados: chris is playing in the sun
20:34 kados yea, but I thought maybe he snuck back in :-)
20:35 thd kados: paul wrote the lines you are looking at now.
20:36 kados yep
20:36 kados I'm in MARChtml2marc at the moment
20:36 kados i should be able to fix the null vs blank prob we're having
21:07 kados yay ... solved that
06:16 osmoze hello

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