IRC log for #koha, 2006-02-25

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
11:21 kados hdl: I'm here now
11:21 hdl hi
11:21 kados hdl: is paul here?
11:21 kados it seems no
11:22 kados hdl: could you briefly explain the 'Link' feature in MARC subfields constraints?
11:22 kados hdl: fun :-)
11:22 hdl QUERY : Title= "chaos" at /home/hdl/Koha/Code/savannah/k​oha-dev/koha//C4/ line 237., referer: http://localhost:8083/cgi-bin/[…].pl?type=intranet
11:22 hdl [Thu Feb 23 15:21:16 2006] [error] [client] Use of uninitialized value in subroutine entry at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.7/i386-linux/ line 280., referer: http://localhost:8083/cgi-bin/[…].pl?type=intranet
11:22 hdl [Thu Feb 23 15:21:16 2006] [error] [client] Can't call method "option" on an undefined value at /home/hdl/Koha/Code/savannah/k​oha-dev/koha//C4/ line 242., referer: http://localhost:8083/cgi-bin/[…].pl?type=intranet
11:22 hdl
11:24 hdl kados : link feature seems to allow ppl to search for data like the one selected but I donot know more.
11:24 kados hdl: it is different than 'Search also' thohugh right?
11:24 hdl When paul comes ack, he can explain
11:24 hdl Yes.
11:25 hdl Search also will search in other fields.
11:25 hdl Link, will display a glass after author or subject for instance.
11:26 hdl On which you can click to browse other biblio on the same author/subject
11:26 hdl *kados : can you exmplain what I did wrong ?
11:27 hdl my tab is in /usr/local/share/idzebra/tab
11:27 hdl doesnot seem to work :
11:28 hdl Error 10000 : Connect failed
11:28 hdl ZOOM error 10000 "Connect failed" (addinfo: "localhost:2100") from diag-set 'ZOOM'
11:29 hdl updatedatabase worked fine... apart from some  : no mapping found for some characters.
11:30 hdl and DBD::mysql::db do failed: The used table type doesn't support FULLTEXT indexes at ./updatedatabase line 1029. for bibliosubtitle or bibliothesaurus
11:31 kados interesting
11:31 kados that DBD error is quite strange
11:32 kados I don't think we're doing any FULLTEXT indesing
11:32 kados indexing even
11:32 kados hdl: how did you start zebra?
11:32 hdl zebrasrv @2100
11:32 kados you need to use:
11:32 kados zebrasrv localhost:2100/kohatest
11:32 kados where kohatest is the db name in koha.conf
11:33 hdl I followed your notes ;)
11:33 kados yea, they are a bit outdated :-)
11:33 kados I will write a new set very soon
11:39 hdl one need to launch a zebra server before
11:39 hdl Then run zebra index engine
11:39 kados correct
11:39 hdl ?
11:39 kados start zebra
11:39 kados using above command
11:39 kados then run
11:39 kados thd: are you using latest cvs?
11:40 hdl I(hdl) am now
11:40 kados oops .. I mean hdl :-)
11:40 hdl :)
11:40 hdl :D
11:40 kados heh
11:40 thd kados: not since last night.
11:40 kados thd: morning :-)
11:40 kados thd:[…]c/nlr/nlr00x.html
11:40 hdl morning thd
11:40 kados thd: been thiking about that list and Koha's current frameworks
11:40 thd good morning kados
11:41 kados thd: it would require many many frameworks to handle all those requirements
11:41 hdl kados : why rm -f biblios ?
11:41 kados hdl: not anymore
11:41 kados hdl: those instructions are too old to use
11:42 kados hdl: are you converting a 2.2.5 system to use zebra?
11:42 hdl 2.2.4 in fact
11:43 kados same thing
11:43 kados so here's what to do:
11:43 kados check out latest head cvs
11:43 hdl done
11:43 kados edit koha.conf to include:
11:44 kados zebradb=localhost:2100/kohatest
11:44 kados at the bottom
11:44 kados go to cvs koha directory
11:44 kados type:
11:44 kados ln -s misc/zebra/unimarc zebra
11:44 thd kados: you would need about 25 frameworks.
11:45 hdl now done
11:45 kados cd zebra
11:45 hdl ok
11:45 kados zebraidx update biblios
11:45 kados you may need to 'mkdir lock' first ... it will warn you
11:46 kados that command tells zebra: OK ... this is a valid zebra database ... set up the basics for me
11:46 kados when update happens successfully (hopefully you have no records in biblios, I forgot to mention)
11:46 kados then type:
11:46 kados zebrasrv localhost:2100/kohatest
11:46 kados it will start zebra
11:47 kados NOW ... you are ready to attempt to
11:47 kados let me know when you get that far
11:47 hdl zebraidx update biblios : what does it do ?
11:47 kados hdl: that command tells zebra: OK ... this is a valid zebra database
11:47 kados               ... set up the basics for me
11:47 kados you could also say:
11:47 kados zebraidx init
11:47 kados same thing
11:47 hdl I did so.
11:48 kados wait ... it's not the same
11:48 kados I believe you must use zebraidx update biblios
11:48 kados do you have a biblios directory?
11:48 kados it should be a blank directory
11:48 kados in the same location as zebra.cfg
11:48 hdl But it answered :
11:48 hdl 14:24:36-23/02 zebraidx(22194) [log] zebra_start zebra.cfg 1.3.32
11:48 hdl 14:24:36-23/02 zebraidx(22194) [warn] open lock/norm..LCK [No such file or directory]
11:48 hdl 14:24:36-23/02 zebraidx(22194) [warn] open lock/shadow..LCK [No such file or directory]
11:48 hdl 14:24:36-23/02 zebraidx(22194) [log][app2] zebra_stop
11:48 hdl
11:48 kados mkdir lock
11:49 kados (see above comments :-))
11:49 hdl I hadnot at that time.
11:49 hdl Now, I did.
11:49 hdl But I launched zebrasrv
11:50 hdl and rebuild_zebra
11:50 hdl (Logs are impressive !!!)
11:50 kados bbiab
11:59 kados hdl: ok ...
11:59 kados hdl: so now you are ready to attempt to run
11:59 kados make sure you export KOHA_CONF
12:00 kados run it and see what happens
12:00 kados cool!
12:00 kados and it's showing up in the log?
12:00 hdl Quite long...
12:00 kados yea, it's slow
12:00 kados in part because it creates a new connection for each update
12:00 kados this week I plan to fix that
12:00 kados and do speed tests
12:03 kados thd: so ... getting back to the frameworks
12:04 thd yes kados
12:04 kados it seems like we need two for each materials designation
12:04 kados one for original cataloging
12:04 kados and one for editing existing records
12:04 kados at least with the current scheme ... right?
12:05 thd kados: I do not understand the reason for that
12:05 kados thd: because take for example
12:06 kados thd: if you try to edit an existing record, it will replace many of the fields with new values
12:06 kados thd: and I'm not sure I have control over when a plugin works and when it doesn't
12:07 thd kados: We need a minimal level and a national level.  The national level is merely to prove that national level will work on the Koha record editor.
12:07 kados right ... we still need subfield repeatability and reordering though
12:08 kados but I don't think we can have a single framework for the whole national level
12:08 kados I could be wrong though
12:08 thd kados: The plugins should test for empty values and only overwrite what is empty.
12:08 kados thd: yes I agree, but I'm not sure they can do this currently
12:08 kados thd: it works already for some fields, like 'date'
12:08 thd kados: about 25 frameworks
12:08 kados thd: is that going to confuse catalogers?
12:10 thd kados: It should be one framework that can be transmuted by changing control field values but that is a long term goal.
12:11 thd kados: Which fields have the problem to which you are referring for new and existing records.
12:11 thd ?
12:11 kados thd: all fields
12:11 kados wait i might be wrong here
12:12 kados I guess it's just 003
12:12 kados we should use a different plugin for that anyway
12:12 thd kados: your plugin for 008 seemed to accept the values that were already there.
12:12 kados thd: yep, it does
12:12 kados thd: are there no indicators shown  on the current editor?
12:13 thd kados: 003 does not need to change in bibliographic records but continually repopulating it would cause no problem.
12:14 thd kados: the indicator positions are there, at least the last time I looked.
12:14 kados[…]c/nlr/nlr6xx.html
12:15 kados why does the minimal level not include the 600s?
12:16 thd kados: Indicators are troublesome because they do not yet have a link for plugin management in the framework.  Only manual entry and value lists are provided.
12:16 thd kados: one value list for two indicators is a problem.
12:17 thd kados: I also hope that the blank indicators for control fields using the '@' subfield hack are being discarded.
12:19 thd kados: what was the last link meant to show?  That subject headings are optional at the minimal level?
12:19 kados thd: yea
12:19 kados thd: how is that possible?
12:20 kados thd: does Koha conform to the minimal level now?
12:20 kados thd: well, I mean of course
12:21 thd kados: That is not a US practise but it does go on in some countries where the library science tradition is about correctly identifying the edition but not subject guided access.
12:22 thd kados: Subject guided access needs an expensively maintained thesaurus to work well.
12:23 thd kados: Actually the subject thesaurus is an invention of the last century.
12:24 thd kados: The oldest items at LC have no subject headings only classification by the LC Classification System.
12:27 thd kados: LCC dates from the beginning of the last century but LCSH are closer to mid-century.
12:29 paul_away hdl ?
12:29 thd kados: The disparity of library science practise causes problems for the IFLA where both rich county and poor country practise must be accommodated.
12:30 thd paul: did you wee my question from much earlier this morning?
12:31 paul nope. I had dozens of "connection lost" because of a connection failure.
12:32 thd paul hdl: Do you plan for framework specified subfield repeatability to be useful in the record editor for 2.2.6?
12:35 thd paul: Is that prose too turgid for understanding?
12:36 kados paul: I have beeen playing with subfield reordering
12:36 kados paul: I think I have devised a better scheme that prevents ordering outside of a tag
12:36 kados paul: my demo has it currently turned off because I have a web demo to a client later this afternon and it's not quite stable
12:37 kados paul: but I"ll show you what I have later (or tomorrow most likely)
12:38 thd paul: I know you had expected to have subfield reordering working for 2.2.6, however, I am asking about adding additional repeated subfields.
12:39 thd kados: did you see my comments about your approach to subfield ordering late last night?
12:40 kados thd: no
12:40 thd kados: I had been disconnected and then reposted them.
12:42 kados thd: didnt see them
12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:04:09+-5<thd:#koha>kados: In addition to +- signs for subfield repeatability there should be an add more subfields link that brings up a pop-up to add a group of repeatable subfields selected from a checkbox according to a sequence specified in a framework parameter.
12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:04:30+-5<thd:#koha>kados: Subfield order changing should allow the insertion of any subfield before an already completed subfield. I am uncertain that the example you showed for order changing was heading in that direction for already completed subfields.
12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:04:49+-5<thd:#koha>kados: actually a pop-up insertion form accessible from a link before and after every subfield is probably easier than moving arrows around. Moving arrows is how it is commonly done in user interfaces but not necessarily the most efficient.
12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:10:15+-5<thd:#koha>kados: If you do use arrows for moving any completed subfield content should also move.
12:43 thd 23/02/06 20:13:37+-5<thd:#koha>kados: The issue is not only about creating content from a completely empty record but adding additional in the midst of an already existing record. in the midst of an already existing set of subfields.
12:44 kados thd: the last design I worked up moved the content as well as the designator, etc.
12:45 thd s/additional/additional subfields/
12:46 thd kados: That is fine then as long as we can get more new repeatable subfields in there somehow.
12:46 kados thd: explain why we need a pop-up
12:46 kados thd: because sometimes you would want:
12:46 kados $a
12:46 kados $x
12:46 kados $a
12:46 kados $b
12:46 kados ?
12:47 kados not always a duplicate of the same one?
12:47 thd kados: It is not a need but just what I thought might be more efficient.
12:49 thd kados: you have the basic concept right about why I thought a pop-up might be good or an insert more link but not limited to inserting another copy of the single adjacent subfield.
12:50 thd kados: you often want supplementary groups of subfields that work together in a particular order.
12:51 thd kados: look at the multiple publishers 260 and the formatted table of contents 505 examples in bug 997.
12:53 thd kados: especially the 505 example would be rather tedious to create one repeated subfield at a time and then moving it into the correct relative position.
12:58 thd kados: The most efficient way to create the 505 example would be to populate the field with many author title pairs ordered by a framework ordering default for that field and then cut and paste text from an OCR scan of the table of contents.
13:01 thd kados: you should create anything that is easy enough to create valid records.  A more efficient scheme can always be added later.
13:02 kados thd: paul just showed me how to update information from one field to another using a plugin
13:03 thd kados: just try and avoid blinders about how every friendly user interface reorders elements in a list.
13:03 kados thd: lets pospone the repeatability problem and figure out which fields/valus should be auto-set based on other fields
13:04 thd paul: I have been urging kados and owen to look at that and authorities handling since many months ago but they had no time then ;)
13:05 thd paul: It is certainly the single best feature of Koha.
13:06 thd paul: It is something that every system should have yet without almost a single exception none do.
13:07 kados my opinion is that it's a nice feature, but realistically, for us libraries, Koha's editor isn't up to par yet
13:07 kados using an external editor is still a good idea
13:07 kados if you want to ensure good data in your db
13:07 kados now ... hopefully, with 2.2.6 or soon after, that will change
13:08 kados but right now, i think Koha's editor is 'entry-level'
13:08 thd paul: If we could get element repeatability and ordering fixed in the record editor working well then Koha would be a generation ahead of other record editors.
13:08 kados thd: don't other editors do this already?
13:08 thd kados: no others do not to the extent that I have investigated.
13:10 thd kados: the best that I have seen have context sensitive pop-up help files for the field that you are on.
13:10 kados TLC's editor is pretty nice
13:10 kados and I'm pretty sure it handles subfield repeatability
13:11 thd kados: I just described the TLC editor but it is mostly a free text editor.
13:11 kados yep
13:12 thd kados: I told them what they ought to do but they had not even thought of that.
13:12 kados thd: OK ... just read 997's 505 paragraph
13:13 kados thd: of course, your criticism of that record isn't quite on, since Koha would preserve subfield order in that case
13:13 kados thd: even if not displaying it as expected
13:14 thd kados: the preservation and display issues for 997 have been mostly corrected thanks to paul.
13:14 kados thd: i think some judicious use of javascript could really make the process of editing a record much easier
13:15 kados thd: 'mostly' ?
13:16 thd kados: The detail view and the ISBD view have problems with repeated subfields outside of 6XX which has been fixed.
13:17 kados thd: there are no preservation issues to my knowledge
13:17 kados thd: we should do a test
13:17 thd kados: Also creating original record content and editing existing content are still issues.
13:17 kados thd: import a record using bulkmarcimport
13:17 kados thd: then export again and do a 'diff' on it
13:18 kados thd: (use of an external cataloging client solves that problem)
13:18 kados thd: (until we fix the framework)
13:19 thd kados: I attached a comment to 997 long ago qualifying the original statement which had been underinformed.
13:19 kados yep
13:20 thd kados: one record is not a sufficient test.  Many varied and troublesome records might be.
13:21 kados right
13:22 thd kados: I need to write the sole remaining LC CDS technical services employee back to obtain a set of bibliographic test files.
13:22 kados thd: can we get a case scenerio for auto-updating a fixed field from another field's value?
13:23 kados thd: ie, an example of when this should happen and how?
13:23 thd kados: you had two from yesterday.
13:24 kados I dont' remember them ...
13:24 thd kados: illustrations and content elements for books to use in 008.
13:26 thd kados: illustrations would be coded in 300
13:27 thd s/coded/abbreviated/
13:28 kados right
13:29 thd kados: 300 $b
13:32 thd kados so you regular expression search of 300 $b would be looking for ~=/ill[.a-z]/  and many other things.
13:35 thd s/ill\[\.a-z\]/ill[.u]/
13:36 kados right
13:36 thd kados: also ~=/col[.o]/ for variations of colour etc.
13:37 thd kados: ill. and col. are the standard AACR2 abbreviations
13:38 thd kados: although you may not want to miss the typos :)
13:41 kados is there a comprehensive list of possible values for 300$b?
13:42 kados I can't find one ... would that be in AARC?
13:43 thd kados: it is rule 2.5C1-2.5C2.
13:43 kados is AACR3 out yet?
13:43 kados ahh ... coming in 2007
13:45 thd kados: when you were becoming very fatigued yesterday I explained that AACR3 is a complete rewrite where the committee threw out the first draft and had to start over because of too many objections.
13:46 kados heh
13:47 thd kados: Whatever the virtues and vices of AACR3, it will not cure the legacy records.
13:55 thd kados: common 300 $b usage may not always be sufficient for good completion of BOOKS 008/18-21 but it can succeed most of the time.
13:56 kados thd: found a complete list:
13:56 kados
13:56 kados thd: this will be quite easy to do
13:56 kados thd: though I think I'll need to rest a bit first
13:56 kados thd: still feeling pretty sick
13:57 thd kados: 008 was a relatively recent addition to USMARC in the grand scheme of MARC time and initially had to use record parsing of textual data to apply it to old records retrospectively.
13:59 thd kados: try to avoid exacerbating your condition when work is too much fun.
13:59 thd :)
14:19 kados thd: I found and fixed the problem with | btw
14:19 kados thd: can you construct a default leader value string?
14:19 kados thd: I'll reintroduce | into the plugins as the default value where applicable
14:21 thd kados: I gave you default values for minimal level books records yesterday.  Do you want them again?
14:22 thd kados: the existing leader string default is already what I had suggested to paul.
14:25 thd kados: he made a leader plugin for MARC 21 using the default I suggested because the leader is almost identical between MARC 21 and UNIMARC so the extra MARC 21 plugin was a trivial amount of extra work.
14:33 kados thd: the default leader plugin makes no use of |
14:34 kados thd: the default value is:
14:34 kados "     nam         7a  4500"
17:13 kados thd: BWS Johnson just wrote:
17:13 kados The 650 x problem is a big deal....Now, if there is away to make the subject subheadings play nice with their bigger brothers, let
17:13 kados me know
17:14 chris is that what i fixed the other day?
17:15 chris[…]
17:15 chris that bit?
17:15 kados dunno
17:16 kados didn't that just put the '650' back in?
17:16 chris could be
17:16 kados or did it affect ordering too
17:16 chris probably not
17:16 chris couple of nice emails from stephen and brooke though
17:17 chris nice way to wake up
17:23 thd kados: what is meant by the 650 X problem?  Is that the economical MARC view that you made the preference with a standard value to avoid? Therefore the same problem to which chris is referring?
17:25 thd kados: What you had created the preference for was presentation only where the underlying data is valid.
17:26 thd kados: Do you want my SQL dump of marc_subfield_structure so far?
17:28 thd kados: I am having to add most of the fields in the MARC 21 specification.  Most of the fields were in fact missing from the default framework.
17:30 thd kados: I still have much more to do.  I will need to actually rest soon. :)
18:02 kados thd: did you just try to call?
18:11 thd kados: It was not I.
18:12 chris not me either
18:12 chris :)
18:32 kados hehe
00:02 kados woo ... back online
00:02 chris yeah we think bad ram
00:42 thd kados: I have thought that filling every unused field and subfield in unmanaged fields and subfields will preserve all obsolete and local use data that people might have.  However, I am uncertain if that may introduce a noticeable performance drag on the framework.
00:44 thd kados: This would be to protect against data loss when adding items or otherwise editing records.
00:50 kados thd: yep
00:51 kados thd: it becomes quite a large form element
00:52 thd kados: I do not understand your last sentence.
06:15 hdl hello
06:28 osmoze bonjour hdl :)
06:29 hdl bonjour osmoze.
06:29 paul hello les frenchies
06:30 osmoze :)
07:01 hdl Someone using mediatypetable around ? chris kados ???
07:02 hdl paul ?
07:02 paul nope
07:03 osmoze paul, il y a combien d inscrit sur la liste fr maintenant ?
07:03 paul 123. Ca stagne un petit peu
07:04 paul (on voit quelques désabonnements, et quelques abonnements, qui s'équilibrent)
07:04 osmoze la derniere annonce sur la liste etait de 60, donc c est toujours ca :)
07:04 paul 181 sur la liste annonce.
07:04 osmoze et sur la devel, tu peux le savoir ?
07:05 paul tu retardes, il me semble que j'ai récemment souhaité la bienvenue sur la liste à la personne qui a écrit juste après être inscrit et qui étit la 120°
07:05 osmoze roh, aurais je loupé un mail ^^
07:05 paul non (c'est joshua l'admin). quelques dizaines
07:05 osmoze ok merci :)
07:06 paul dans la liste koha anglaises, il y a plusieurs centaines d'abonnés.
07:06 paul genre 500
07:06 osmoze ca fait pas enorme si c est la liste internationale :(
07:07 osmoze en comparaison
07:08 paul (pas sûr du chiffre)
07:08 paul cela dit, ce n'est pas anormal. Nous nous adressons à une niche très spécifique.
07:09 paul et nous n'aurons jamais 50 000 abonnés !
07:09 paul (et puis je vais être mauvaise langue : contrairement à d'autres, nous n'annoncons que des chiffres vérifiables et minimums)
07:10 paul (pas comme certains autres SIGB libres qui annoncent des milliers d'installation)
07:14 osmoze cad ?
07:14 osmoze du style pmb ?
07:15 paul c'est pas moi qui l'ai dit !

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