IRC log for #koha, 2006-02-02

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
13:01 kados morning owen
17:48 chris monring
17:48 chris morning even
17:48 owen Hi chris
17:49 shedges moonring to you!
17:50 chris heh
17:50 chris did you even play a game called
17:50 chris 'the lords of midnight' ?
17:50 shedges ?? nope
17:50 chris i had it on my old zx spectrum when i was 12 or so.
17:51 chris there was a moon ring in that :)
17:51 shedges maybe the typo was subconscious?
17:51 owen Wow, logbot spoke!
17:52 chris ?? speak
17:52 chris i wonder what it knows the definitions of
17:53 shedges ?? logbot
17:53 shedges (doesn't even know it's own name)
17:54 chris :)
18:14 chris is kados about ?
18:28 kados chris: yep
18:28 kados chris: howdy :-)
18:29 chris heya
18:29 kados just the man I need to speak to :-)
18:29 chris do you remember your mailman admin password for savanah ? cos i dont, i was wonderign if you could find that google groups subscription and kill it
18:29 kados (basically, they don't work in 2.2.5 :-)
18:29 kados yep, I'll take care of it
18:32 kados chris: horowhena uses fines right?
18:32 kados chris: did you have to tweak before it would work for them?
18:32 chris hmm dont remember doing
18:32 chris that
18:33 kados fines don't seem to be working for two of our clients
18:33 chris whats it doing wrong?
18:33 chris just 2?
18:33 kados well ... I dont' think it's doing anything :-)
18:33 kados honestly, I'm at a loss for how to troubleshoot it
18:34 kados I've got a cron job in
18:34 kados /etc/cron.daily/wlpl.daily
18:34 kados looks like this:
18:34 kados #!/bin/sh
18:34 kados export PERL5LIB=/home/kohatest/cvsrepos/2.2.x/koha
18:34 kados export KOHA_CONF=/home/kohatest/etc/koha.conf
18:34 kados /home/kohatest/cron/
18:35 kados EXITVALUE=$?
18:35 kados if [ $EXITVALUE != 0 ]; then
18:35 kados echo "Problem with setting fines"
18:35 kados fi
18:35 kados exit 0
18:35 chris ahh is the fines stuff set up in ?
18:35 kados it's got proper permissions and fines2 has proper permissions
18:35 kados yea, i think so
18:35 chris have you run it by hand?
18:36 kados yea, it seems to do _something_
18:36 kados but I think it only does stuff with longoverdu items
18:36 kados ie, lost stuff
18:36 kados it doesn't increment fines as you'd expect
18:36 kados so I have a user account, I check out a book, a week later I check, and no fines on that user
18:37 kados even though that user should increment fines after 3 days
18:37 chris have you tried
18:37 chris my $DEBUG=1;
18:37 chris then running it by hand
18:37 kados nope
18:38 chris id do that, and it will tell you if its finding overdues
18:38 chris and if its finding overdues, but the fines arent being placed
18:38 chris then its because
18:38 chris if ($amount > 0){
18:39 chris $amount isnt getting set .. which means CalcFine isnt working
18:40 chris which is in C4::Circulation::Fines;
18:40 chris and usually it doesnt work, because the rules arent set up
18:40 kados hmmm
18:40 chris altho there are other reasons
18:40 chris hmm that looks likes it found overdues
18:41 chris and is wanting to place changes
18:41 chris charges even
18:41 chris of 10 cents
18:41 kados that sounds about right
18:42 kados but see the '891' found
18:42 chris yeah thats right
18:42 kados aren't 891 listed there?
18:42 kados why only a few dozen?
18:42 chris its only the ones that fall on todays cycle
18:43 kados ahh
18:43 kados so that makes sense
18:43 kados but ... it's not updating them right?
18:43 kados or it's only updating some of them
18:43 chris doesnt look like it
18:43 chris hmm yeah where is the insert line
18:43 kados are the categories hard-coded in there ... could that be why?
18:43 chris 2 secs
18:44 chris ah no .. its UpdateFine
18:44 chris id suspect that
18:45 chris id take a look at that, and put some prints in there
18:45 chris and see why its not doing the update
18:45 chris i think there are a bunch of prints you can uncomment
18:45 kados i as in there, already uncommented the prints
18:45 kados was even
18:45 kados the 'not in account' one is printed
18:46 chris hmm right
18:46 chris so its a new fine
18:47 chris so it looks like the sth2->execute isnt working for some reason
18:47 chris could put a || die $sth2->err_str;
18:47 chris on the end of that line
18:47 chris and run it again and see if it dies, and tells you why
18:48 kados k
18:49 kados chris: ok ... now it's a slightly different message ... didn't die though
18:49 kados output in the same place as before
18:49 chris does it say updating?
18:49 chris sweet
18:49 chris that looks exactly right
18:49 kados huh
18:50 chris ie there is .10 already on .. it doenst need updating
18:50 kados if so, why isn't my account reflecting charges?
18:50 kados after two weeks of having an item out
18:50 chris are you in that list?
18:50 chris check one of the accounts of the ppl that is in that list
18:51 kados yea, looks right
18:51 chris then id checked for the itemtype and your member type
18:51 kados so maybe my cron job's not running?
18:51 kados yea, checked that a dozen times
18:51 chris right
18:51 chris id suspect the cron job then
18:51 chris can you set it up to email you when it runs?
18:52 chris if it emailed you this output (take out the die statement first :-))
18:52 chris then it would help spot what is going wrong
18:52 kados right
18:52 chris ie | mailx -s Fines
18:53 chris something like that anyway
18:53 kados right
18:54 chris so check that that works from the commandline .. then set it up for the cron job to do it
18:54 chris and if you dont get mail .. the cron job isnt running
18:54 kados right
18:54 kados so the | means 'and' ?
18:54 chris pipe
18:54 kados ahh
18:54 chris to a process
18:54 kados right
18:54 kados duh :-)
18:54 chris > = pipe to a file
18:55 chris so my cron job looks a little like this
18:57 chris 50 17 * * * perl -I /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules/ /usr/local/koha/intranet/scripts/misc/ | mailx -s "fines"
18:57 chris in the crontab
18:58 chris (something like that anyway)
18:59 kados right
18:59 kados thanks!
19:01 chris np
19:04 kados chris: so tomorrow's the first day of full-time Koha work, eh?
19:04 kados excited? :-)
19:05 kados I know I am :-)
19:07 chris ahh, first there is work for someone else .. setting me up a test machine and getting head running so i can start debugging
19:07 chris which will give me time to try and clear some stuff off my timesheet
19:09 kados if that would help
19:09 chris i think we will run up a xen instance .. ill get nice ping times to it
19:12 thd kados chris: Is Koha now being tied more closely to MySQL specifically?
19:12 kados thd: yep, with db constraints we're probably tied to mysql 4.1
19:13 kados thd:  not sure if postgres supports the same constraints as mysql 4.1
19:13 kados or oracle ...
19:13 kados or SQL Server :-)
19:14 kados though I couldn't say for sure
19:14 kados hi j0se
19:14 kados j0se: welcome to #koha
19:16 thd kados: Why are the constraints strictly necessary?
19:16 j0se hi kados, thanks, hope eveyone is alright
19:16 kados thd: bbiab
19:17 kados j0se: yep, all doing well here ... busy as usual, but a good busy :-)
19:45 kados thd: so ... constraints
19:45 kados the main advantage to db constraints is they don't limit the security of the db to the mercy of the perl scripts
19:46 kados in other words, we get to define some features of the business logic of the ILS in the db itself
19:46 kados so the scripts can't do anything funny that we didn't realize they were doing
19:48 owen Something MySQL apologists used to say should be handled by the scripts anyway, you sloppy programmers! ;)
19:48 kados hehe
19:48 thd kados: :)
19:49 thd kados: certainly those things could still be handled in Perl based constraints.
19:49 kados thd: most major ILSes boast about their constraints ... and I"ve had clients ask whether Koha had them
19:49 kados thd: so I'm very happy now that we do :-)
19:50 kados in fact, it was one of the major points that INEO made when they visited Athens
19:50 kados of course, it's debatable how necessary they are, but having them will be a great selling point
19:50 thd kados: Postgres and Oracle had always had constraints the question is are they compatible.
19:51 kados and I think I was wrong before when I said that we were tied to mysql
19:51 kados what I meant was that mysql users will be tied to version 4.1
19:51 kados I'd be very surprised if the Mysql constraints paul has done aren't compatible with posgres, oracle and SQL Server
19:52 kados and I doubt it'd be hard to fix any incompatibilities were they to be
19:52 thd kados: many important customers will never trust MySQL however many constraints you add within MySQL.
19:52 kados (and anyone running postgres or oracle is likely to know how to do this)
19:52 kados well, good news is that when we switch to innodb we can claim we're running an Oracle db :-)
19:53 kados since Oracle now owns innodb :-)
19:53 kados I'm really looking forward to writing the marketing materials for Koha 3.0 :-)
19:54 thd kados: I have been trying to figure out the new Debian multi-version PostresSQL model which broke my Postgres in etch.
20:13 thd kados:: would it not make more sense to plan the DB dependent things to be compatible Postgres?
20:13 kados thd: do you know of any Koha users running postgres?
20:14 thd kados: no but even 2.X would break some things.
20:15 kados my point is, dont' expect us to test compatibility with postgres when noone's using it :-)
20:15 thd or some things would be broken in Postgres for the current version.
20:15 kados if someone wants to use postgres, they can test and fix compatibility probs
20:15 kados this is open source :-)
20:16 thd kados: I would be happy to try my local mail system was running in Postgres :)
20:17 thd kados: I know there are some MySQL dependent instructions.  What did your Oracle customer do about those in 2.X?
20:19 kados there is a library somewhere using Koha on oracle
20:19 kados I don't remember who
20:19 thd kados: Katipo's customer?
20:20 russ nope not us
20:25 thd kados: I had proposed a multi-DB design to test against some DB flavour parameter and then run the correct code for the particularities of whatever flavour was installed in cases of unavoidable syntax incompatibility.
20:26 thd kados: chris and paul had been very pleased with the idea at the time.
20:26 kados thd: did you write the proposal to koha-devel?
20:27 chris im happy with that idea .. just dont expect me to write the code :-)
20:28 thd kados: No but I assumed that everyone thought it better to not tie things to a particular DB and that would have made it into the Koha programming guidelines on by now.
20:28 chris there are tradeoffs
20:29 chris if i have to do something that is fully ansi compliant, but slower, ill do it the faster way, for time critical things like circulation
20:29 thd chris: do you have a customer now using normal acquisitions with 2.X?
20:29 chris but that doesnt stop someone else adding the code to do it another way
20:29 chris yes
20:30 kados chris++
20:30 thd chris: Is that code fully committed to CVS now and working in 2.5?
20:30 chris no
20:31 chris because its totally nz dependent
20:31 chris as part of my work on 3.0 ill generalise it and commit it
20:31 thd chris: why or in what way is it NZ dependent?
20:32 russ there is a bunch of stuff
20:32 chris why because time was short and we needed fix all the stuff that got broken going from 1.2 to 2.0 as fast as possible
20:33 chris it converts currency to nz dollars for a start, which isnt much use if you arent in nz
20:33 chris if there were 38 hours in a day, id have fixed that, and committed it
20:34 thd chris russ kados: excessive haste makes for ungeneralised, read it may work but you cannot fix it or improve it, coding :)
20:35 chris yep, in an ideal world clients wouldnt want there fixes now, but would have time to allow us to do generalised fixes
20:35 chris unfortunately its not the reality at all, so we do the best we can, and try to fix it when we get a chance
20:36 thd chris: there are 38 hours in some of my days but I then have to sleep for two days straight to recover or be useless the rest of the week.
20:36 chris :)
20:37 russ thd: we have to do the best we can given our client constraints
20:38 thd chris: I have been useless for most of the past month and a half over contesting a fine arising out of using the wrong type of ticket for $1.25 subway fare in Newark, New Jersey.
20:40 thd chris: I could have paid a $75 fine by mail but it would have meant pleading guilty to an offence that I was not guilty of so instead of a day in court I got a week in gaol for contempt and all my time lost to chasing lawyers down in case they had prosecuted me for contempt.
20:41 thd chris: stay out of court in high crime areas and you will have much more time to work on Koha.
20:43 thd chris: If you are in court for any reason never make even a truthful comment about the judge that might get back to him.
20:43 chris both good points
20:45 thd chris: I learnt the most painful way possible.  It would have never happened in any real court though and never in New York where I live and know the all the public transport fare schemes.
20:52 thd chris kados: Most of the SQL code I have written has been for Postgres including the part that causes problems in Postgres 8.X.  I am certainly willing to try to make a proposal on Koha -devel about at least having placeholder code for 3.0 so the routine can fit and just maybe we might try to avoid something that simply could not be replicated properly in Postgres or Oracle.
20:56 thd chris kados: Do you have any immediate thoughts about problems of adding placeholder code to allow for DB flavoured routines.  It could default to MySQL if no DB flavour set.
20:56 kados I don't
20:57 kados isn't that what dbi is for?
21:00 thd kados: Yes except if you are building structures hat are MySQL specific or calling with MySQL syntax then there are problems that could be avoided while the code is being written by even merely providing a place for alternate code.
21:01 thd kados: DBI is also often if not necessarily set to use the flavour it has been set to call.
21:03 kados thd: if I may be so bold, I think your time is better spent handling problems we're facing right now, than problems we might face if someone were to want to use postgres
21:03 kados thd: :-)
21:04 thd kados: A significant issue that would certainly cause problems for Postgres 8.X as opposed to earlier versions is the use schemas.  The schemas need to be referenced properly otherwise no SQL code will work in Postgres 8.X.
21:06 thd kados: Agreed, my proposal is merely about writing the place-holding structure for alternate code into the routines now while the code is being written rather than doing twice as much work to add it later.
21:07 thd kados chris: does that make sense?
21:07 kados thd: it won't hurt to write a message to koha-devel
21:08 kados thd: if writing the place-holding structure is trivial maybe chris or paul will allow for it while they're in there
21:08 kados thd: but don't be too dissapointed if it doesn't get done :-)
21:09 thd kados: Exactly, I will write a proposal on koha-devel late tonight.
21:10 thd kados: I am sometimes disappointed but never discouraged :)
21:11 kados :-)
22:39 kados hey rach
22:39 kados how's the little guy?
22:39 kados (what's his name?)
22:50 rach benjamin ockleston blake
22:51 rach ben - and he is sleeping in his pram at the moment, putting on weight well, generally growing and seems pretty happy
22:52 kados nice
22:52 rach there are some new pics -
22:52 rach
22:52 rach is pretty cute
22:52 kados heh
22:53 kados damn cute :-)
22:55 rach we got lucky, he is generally thought to be a good looking baby :-)
22:58 kados heh
23:00 kados wow ... si ... you shaved your head!
23:05 rach welli t is the internet I guess :-)
23:05 rach yep si shaved his head a while back now, no  more pony tail for him
02:56 kados pre-pre launch announcement for Labs.LibLime.Com:
02:56 kados
02:56 kados have a look, one and all :-)
03:10 thd-away kados: are you in bed yet?
03:12 thd chris: are you still there?
03:14 kados thd: not quite yet
03:15 thd kados: opencatalog did not work for me should it have?
03:16 kados sorry that links not valid just yet
03:16 kados and the teamipg codes not working yet
03:17 kados pre-pre release :-)
03:17 thd kados: I even had an error for team 42
03:17 kados really>? for team42?
03:17 thd kados: yes XML error
03:18 kados for what search?
03:18 thd kados: yes
03:19 thd kados: is there a needed syntax?
03:19 thd kados: I tried objective knowledge as a title search
03:20 kados ahh ... maybe the keyword searching is broken
03:20 thd kados: that is book by Karl Popper
03:20 kados I'll have a look in the morning
03:20 thd kados: Is there a good title to search or what is the search running against?
03:20 kados g'nite Koha :-)
03:21 thd good night Kados
03:24 thd chris: are you still awake?
04:59 osmoze bonjour
05:37 thd good morning osmoze
05:38 paul hello everybody
05:38 thd good morning paul
05:48 thd happy hunting paul
08:27 paul hello hdl

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