Time  Nick     Message
08:27 paul     hello hdl
05:48 thd      happy hunting paul
05:38 thd      good morning paul
05:38 paul     hello everybody
05:37 thd      good morning osmoze
04:59 osmoze   bonjour
03:24 thd      chris: are you still awake?
03:21 thd      good night Kados
03:20 kados    g'nite Koha :-)
03:20 thd      kados: Is there a good title to search or what is the search running against?
03:20 kados    I'll have a look in the morning
03:20 thd      kados: that is book by Karl Popper
03:20 kados    ahh ... maybe the keyword searching is broken
03:19 thd      kados: I tried objective knowledge as a title search
03:19 thd      kados: is there a needed syntax?
03:18 thd      kados: yes
03:18 kados    for what search?
03:17 thd      kados: yes XML error
03:17 kados    really>? for team42?
03:17 thd      kados: I even had an error for team 42
03:17 kados    pre-pre release :-)
03:16 kados    and the teamipg codes not working yet
03:16 kados    sorry that links not valid just yet
03:15 thd      kados: opencatalog did not work for me should it have?
03:14 kados    thd: not quite yet
03:12 thd      chris: are you still there?
03:10 thd-away kados: are you in bed yet?
02:56 kados    have a look, one and all :-)
02:56 kados    http://labs.liblime.com/
02:56 kados    pre-pre launch announcement for Labs.LibLime.Com:
23:05 rach     yep si shaved his head a while back now, no  more pony tail for him
23:05 rach     welli t is the internet I guess :-)
23:00 kados    wow ... si ... you shaved your head!
22:58 kados    heh
22:55 rach     we got lucky, he is generally thought to be a good looking baby :-)
22:53 kados    damn cute :-)
22:52 kados    heh
22:52 rach     is pretty cute
22:52 rach     http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/album162/img_0268
22:52 rach     there are some new pics - http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/album162
22:52 kados    nice
22:51 rach     ben - and he is sleeping in his pram at the moment, putting on weight well, generally growing and seems pretty happy
22:50 rach     benjamin ockleston blake
22:39 kados    (what's his name?)
22:39 kados    how's the little guy?
22:39 kados    hey rach
21:11 kados    :-)
21:10 thd      kados: I am sometimes disappointed but never discouraged :)
21:09 thd      kados: Exactly, I will write a proposal on koha-devel late tonight.
21:08 kados    thd: but don't be too dissapointed if it doesn't get done :-)
21:08 kados    thd: if writing the place-holding structure is trivial maybe chris or paul will allow for it while they're in there
21:07 kados    thd: it won't hurt to write a message to koha-devel
21:07 thd      kados chris: does that make sense?
21:06 thd      kados: Agreed, my proposal is merely about writing the place-holding structure for alternate code into the routines now while the code is being written rather than doing twice as much work to add it later.
21:04 thd      kados: A significant issue that would certainly cause problems for Postgres 8.X as opposed to earlier versions is the use schemas.  The schemas need to be referenced properly otherwise no SQL code will work in Postgres 8.X.
21:03 kados    thd: :-)
21:03 kados    thd: if I may be so bold, I think your time is better spent handling problems we're facing right now, than problems we might face if someone were to want to use postgres
21:01 thd      kados: DBI is also often if not necessarily set to use the flavour it has been set to call.
21:00 thd      kados: Yes except if you are building structures hat are MySQL specific or calling with MySQL syntax then there are problems that could be avoided while the code is being written by even merely providing a place for alternate code.
20:57 kados    isn't that what dbi is for?
20:56 kados    I don't
20:56 thd      chris kados: Do you have any immediate thoughts about problems of adding placeholder code to allow for DB flavoured routines.  It could default to MySQL if no DB flavour parameter.is set.
20:52 thd      chris kados: Most of the SQL code I have written has been for Postgres including the part that causes problems in Postgres 8.X.  I am certainly willing to try to make a proposal on Koha -devel about at least having placeholder code for 3.0 so the routine can fit and just maybe we might try to avoid something that simply could not be replicated properly in Postgres or Oracle.
20:45 thd      chris: I learnt the most painful way possible.  It would have never happened in any real court though and never in New York where I live and know the all the public transport fare schemes.
20:43 chris    both good points
20:43 thd      chris: If you are in court for any reason never make even a truthful comment about the judge that might get back to him.
20:41 thd      chris: stay out of court in high crime areas and you will have much more time to work on Koha.
20:40 thd      chris: I could have paid a $75 fine by mail but it would have meant pleading guilty to an offence that I was not guilty of so instead of a day in court I got a week in gaol for contempt and all my time lost to chasing lawyers down in case they had prosecuted me for contempt.
20:38 thd      chris: I have been useless for most of the past month and a half over contesting a fine arising out of using the wrong type of ticket for $1.25 subway fare in Newark, New Jersey.
20:37 russ     thd: we have to do the best we can given our client constraints
20:36 chris    :)
20:36 thd      chris: there are 38 hours in some of my days but I then have to sleep for two days straight to recover or be useless the rest of the week.
20:35 chris    unfortunately its not the reality at all, so we do the best we can, and try to fix it when we get a chance
20:35 chris    yep, in an ideal world clients wouldnt want there fixes now, but would have time to allow us to do generalised fixes
20:34 thd      chris russ kados: excessive haste makes for ungeneralised, read it may work but you cannot fix it or improve it, coding :)
20:33 chris    if there were 38 hours in a day, id have fixed that, and committed it
20:33 chris    it converts currency to nz dollars for a start, which isnt much use if you arent in nz
20:32 chris    why because time was short and we needed fix all the stuff that got broken going from 1.2 to 2.0 as fast as possible
20:32 russ     there is a bunch of stuff
20:31 thd      chris: why or in what way is it NZ dependent?
20:31 chris    as part of my work on 3.0 ill generalise it and commit it
20:31 chris    because its totally nz dependent
20:30 chris    no
20:30 thd      chris: Is that code fully committed to CVS now and working in 2.5?
20:30 kados    chris++
20:29 chris    yes
20:29 chris    but that doesnt stop someone else adding the code to do it another way
20:29 thd      chris: do you have a customer now using normal acquisitions with 2.X?
20:29 chris    if i have to do something that is fully ansi compliant, but slower, ill do it the faster way, for time critical things like circulation
20:28 chris    there are tradeoffs
20:28 thd      kados: No but I assumed that everyone thought it better to not tie things to a particular DB and that would have made it into the Koha programming guidelines on koha.docs.org by now.
20:27 chris    im happy with that idea .. just dont expect me to write the code :-)
20:26 kados    thd: did you write the proposal to koha-devel?
20:26 thd      kados: chris and paul had been very pleased with the idea at the time.
20:25 thd      kados: I had proposed a multi-DB design to test against some DB flavour parameter and then run the correct code for the particularities of whatever flavour was installed in cases of unavoidable syntax incompatibility.
20:20 russ     nope not us
20:19 thd      kados: Katipo's customer?
20:19 kados    I don't remember who
20:19 kados    there is a library somewhere using Koha on oracle
20:17 thd      kados: I know there are some MySQL dependent instructions.  What did your Oracle customer do about those in 2.X?
20:16 thd      kados: I would be happy to try my local mail system was running in Postgres :)
20:15 kados    this is open source :-)
20:15 kados    if someone wants to use postgres, they can test and fix compatibility probs
20:15 thd      or some things would be broken in Postgres for the current version.
20:15 kados    my point is, dont' expect us to test compatibility with postgres when noone's using it :-)
20:14 thd      kados: no but even 2.X would break some things.
20:13 kados    thd: do you know of any Koha users running postgres?
20:13 thd      kados:: would it not make more sense to plan the DB dependent things to be compatible Postgres?
19:54 thd      kados: I have been trying to figure out the new Debian multi-version PostresSQL model which broke my Postgres in etch.
19:53 kados    I'm really looking forward to writing the marketing materials for Koha 3.0 :-)
19:53 kados    since Oracle now owns innodb :-)
19:52 kados    well, good news is that when we switch to innodb we can claim we're running an Oracle db :-)
19:52 kados    (and anyone running postgres or oracle is likely to know how to do this)
19:52 thd      kados: many important customers will never trust MySQL however many constraints you add within MySQL.
19:52 kados    and I doubt it'd be hard to fix any incompatibilities were they to be
19:51 kados    I'd be very surprised if the Mysql constraints paul has done aren't compatible with posgres, oracle and SQL Server
19:51 kados    what I meant was that mysql users will be tied to version 4.1
19:51 kados    and I think I was wrong before when I said that we were tied to mysql
19:50 thd      kados: Postgres and Oracle had always had constraints the question is are they compatible.
19:50 kados    of course, it's debatable how necessary they are, but having them will be a great selling point
19:50 kados    in fact, it was one of the major points that INEO made when they visited Athens
19:49 kados    thd: so I'm very happy now that we do :-)
19:49 kados    thd: most major ILSes boast about their constraints ... and I"ve had clients ask whether Koha had them
19:49 thd      kados: certainly those things could still be handled in Perl based constraints.
19:48 thd      kados: :)
19:48 kados    hehe
19:48 owen     Something MySQL apologists used to say should be handled by the scripts anyway, you sloppy programmers! ;)
19:46 kados    so the scripts can't do anything funny that we didn't realize they were doing
19:46 kados    in other words, we get to define some features of the business logic of the ILS in the db itself
19:45 kados    the main advantage to db constraints is they don't limit the security of the db to the mercy of the perl scripts
19:45 kados    thd: so ... constraints
19:17 kados    j0se: yep, all doing well here ... busy as usual, but a good busy :-)
19:16 kados    thd: bbiab
19:16 j0se     hi kados, thanks, hope eveyone is alright
19:16 thd      kados: Why are the constraints strictly necessary?
19:14 kados    j0se: welcome to #koha
19:14 kados    hi j0se
19:14 kados    though I couldn't say for sure
19:13 kados    or SQL Server :-)
19:13 kados    or oracle ...
19:13 kados    thd:  not sure if postgres supports the same constraints as mysql 4.1
19:12 kados    thd: yep, with db constraints we're probably tied to mysql 4.1
19:12 thd      kados chris: Is Koha now being tied more closely to MySQL specifically?
19:09 chris    i think we will run up a xen instance .. ill get nice ping times to it
19:09 kados    if that would help
19:07 chris    which will give me time to try and clear some stuff off my timesheet
19:07 chris    ahh, first there is work for someone else .. setting me up a test machine and getting head running so i can start debugging
19:05 kados    I know I am :-)
19:04 kados    excited? :-)
19:04 kados    chris: so tomorrow's the first day of full-time Koha work, eh?
19:01 chris    np
18:59 kados    thanks!
18:59 kados    right
18:58 chris    (something like that anyway)
18:57 chris    in the crontab
18:57 chris    50 17 * * * perl -I /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules/ /usr/local/koha/intranet/scripts/misc/fines2.pl | mailx -s "fines" chris@katipo.co.nz
18:55 chris    so my cron job looks a little like this
18:54 chris    > = pipe to a file
18:54 kados    duh :-)
18:54 kados    right
18:54 chris    to a process
18:54 kados    ahh
18:54 chris    pipe
18:54 kados    so the | means 'and' ?
18:54 kados    right
18:54 chris    and if you dont get mail .. the cron job isnt running
18:54 chris    so check that that works from the commandline .. then set it up for the cron job to do it
18:53 kados    right
18:53 chris    something like that anyway
18:52 chris    ie fines2.pl | mailx -s Fines joshua@liblime.com
18:52 kados    right
18:52 chris    then it would help spot what is going wrong
18:52 chris    if it emailed you this output (take out the die statement first :-))
18:51 chris    can you set it up to email you when it runs?
18:51 chris    id suspect the cron job then
18:51 chris    right
18:51 kados    yea, checked that a dozen times
18:51 kados    so maybe my cron job's not running?
18:51 chris    then id checked issuingrules.pl for the itemtype and your member type
18:51 kados    yea, looks right
18:50 chris    check one of the accounts of the ppl that is in that list
18:50 chris    are you in that list?
18:50 kados    after two weeks of having an item out
18:50 kados    if so, why isn't my account reflecting charges?
18:50 chris    ie there is .10 already on .. it doenst need updating
18:49 kados    huh
18:49 chris    that looks exactly right
18:49 chris    sweet
18:49 chris    does it say updating?
18:49 kados    output in the same place as before
18:49 kados    chris: ok ... now it's a slightly different message ... didn't die though
18:48 kados    k
18:47 chris    and run it again and see if it dies, and tells you why
18:47 chris    on the end of that line
18:47 chris    could put a || die $sth2->err_str;
18:47 chris    so it looks like the sth2->execute isnt working for some reason
18:46 chris    so its a new fine
18:46 chris    hmm right
18:45 kados    the 'not in account' one is printed
18:45 kados    was even
18:45 kados    i as in there, already uncommented the prints
18:45 chris    i think there are a bunch of prints you can uncomment
18:45 chris    and see why its not doing the update
18:45 chris    id take a look at that, and put some prints in there
18:44 chris    id suspect that
18:44 chris    ah no .. its UpdateFine
18:43 chris    2 secs
18:43 kados    are the categories hard-coded in there ... could that be why?
18:43 chris    hmm yeah where is the insert line
18:43 chris    doesnt look like it
18:43 kados    or it's only updating some of them
18:43 kados    but ... it's not updating them right?
18:43 kados    so that makes sense
18:43 kados    ahh
18:42 chris    its only the ones that fall on todays cycle
18:42 kados    why only a few dozen?
18:42 kados    aren't 891 listed there?
18:42 chris    yeah thats right
18:42 kados    but see the '891' found
18:41 kados    that sounds about right
18:41 chris    of 10 cents
18:41 chris    charges even
18:41 chris    and is wanting to place changes
18:40 chris    hmm that looks likes it found overdues
18:40 chris    altho there are other reasons
18:40 kados    hmmm
18:40 chris    and usually it doesnt work, because the rules arent set up
18:40 chris    which is in C4::Circulation::Fines;
18:39 chris    $amount isnt getting set .. which means CalcFine isnt working
18:38 chris    if ($amount > 0){
18:38 chris    then its because
18:38 chris    and if its finding overdues, but the fines arent being placed
18:38 chris    id do that, and it will tell you if its finding overdues
18:37 kados    nope
18:37 chris    then running it by hand
18:37 chris    my $DEBUG=1;
18:37 chris    have you tried
18:37 kados    even though that user should increment fines after 3 days
18:36 kados    so I have a user account, I check out a book, a week later I check, and no fines on that user
18:36 kados    it doesn't increment fines as you'd expect
18:36 kados    ie, lost stuff
18:36 kados    but I think it only does stuff with longoverdu items
18:36 kados    yea, it seems to do _something_
18:35 chris    have you run it by hand?
18:35 kados    yea, i think so
18:35 kados    it's got proper permissions and fines2 has proper permissions
18:35 chris    ahh is the fines stuff set up in issuingrules.pl ?
18:35 kados    exit 0
18:35 kados    fi
18:35 kados    echo "Problem with setting fines"
18:35 kados    if [ $EXITVALUE != 0 ]; then
18:35 kados    EXITVALUE=$?
18:34 kados    /home/kohatest/cron/fines2.pl
18:34 kados    export KOHA_CONF=/home/kohatest/etc/koha.conf
18:34 kados    export PERL5LIB=/home/kohatest/cvsrepos/2.2.x/koha
18:34 kados    #!/bin/sh
18:34 kados    looks like this:
18:34 kados    /etc/cron.daily/wlpl.daily
18:34 kados    I've got a cron job in
18:33 kados    honestly, I'm at a loss for how to troubleshoot it
18:33 kados    well ... I dont' think it's doing anything :-)
18:33 chris    just 2?
18:33 chris    whats it doing wrong?
18:33 kados    fines don't seem to be working for two of our clients
18:32 chris    that
18:32 chris    hmm dont remember doing
18:32 kados    chris: did you have to tweak fines2.pl before it would work for them?
18:32 kados    chris: horowhena uses fines right?
18:29 kados    yep, I'll take care of it
18:29 kados    (basically, they don't work in 2.2.5 :-)
18:29 chris    do you remember your mailman admin password for savanah ? cos i dont, i was wonderign if you could find that google groups subscription and kill it
18:29 kados    just the man I need to speak to :-)
18:29 chris    heya
18:28 kados    chris: howdy :-)
18:28 kados    chris: yep
18:14 chris    is kados about ?
17:54 chris    :)
17:53 shedges  (doesn't even know it's own name)
17:53 shedges  ?? logbot
17:52 chris    i wonder what it knows the definitions of
17:52 chris    ?? speak
17:51 owen     Wow, logbot spoke!
17:51 shedges  maybe the typo was subconscious?
17:51 chris    there was a moon ring in that :)
17:50 chris    i had it on my old zx spectrum when i was 12 or so.
17:50 shedges  ?? nope
17:50 chris    'the lords of midnight' ?
17:50 chris    did you even play a game called
17:50 chris    heh
17:49 shedges  moonring to you!
17:48 owen     Hi chris
17:48 chris    morning even
17:48 chris    monring
13:01 kados    morning owen