IRC log for #koha, 2018-07-09

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
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05:20 cait joined #koha
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06:41 reiveune hello
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06:47 alex_a bonjour
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07:21 fridolin hi there
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07:27 gaetan_B hello
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08:09 ashimema mornin'
08:10 calire hi #koha
08:45 cait anyone ever seen patron creator templates that won't save?
08:45 cait and show a wrong list of printer profiles?
08:51 janPasi1 joined #koha
08:57 cait we figured out one of the printer profiles was borked... but not sure how it happened or wha
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09:42 fridolin 72 ;)
09:42 ashimema ?
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10:45 jenkins Project Koha_17.11_D8 build #67: FAILURE in 7 min 21 sec: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]Koha_17.11_D8/67/
10:45 jenkins * gonzalez: Bug 20700: MARC21 add/update leader/007/008 codes (17.11.x version)
10:45 jenkins * Tomás Cohen Arazi: Bug 20745: koha-zebra doesn't return the correct error codes
10:45 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=20700 trivial, P5 - low, ---, bgkriegel, Pushed to Stable , Update MARC21 leader/007/008 codes
10:45 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=20745 major, P1 - high, ---, tomascohen, RESOLVED FIXED, indexing/searching not active at end of installation
10:46 jenkins Project Koha_17.11_D8 build #68: STILL FAILING in 1 min 1 sec: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]Koha_17.11_D8/68/
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10:54 marcelr hi #koha
11:09 * kidclamp waves
11:09 marcelr hi kidclamp
11:42 cait GDPR meeting in 20 minutes!
11:47 marcelr hi cait
11:48 cait hi marcelr
11:48 marcelr can attend 30 mins
11:49 cait we#ll try to make it quick
11:49 cait trying to get things sorted right now
11:49 marcelr bug 20819
11:49 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=20819 enhancement, P5 - low, ---,, Needs Signoff , GDPR: Add a consent field for processing personal data in account menu and self-registration
11:49 cc joined #koha
11:49 marcelr feedback welcome
11:49 cait i was going to mention it
11:49 cait can you put alink on agenda?
11:49 marcelr ok
11:50 anne-claire joined #koha
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11:53 talljoy joined #koha
11:54 m23 hello to all GDPR fans :-)
11:54 cait marcelr: fixed the link
11:54 cait marcelr: there is a nice trick {{BZ|bugnumber}} - will automatically make it right
11:56 marcelr great; visit wiki not oftem enough
11:56 marcelr m n
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11:59 cait get ready... starting the meeting :)
12:00 cait #startmeeting GDPR IRC meeting 9 July 2018
12:00 huginn Meeting started Mon Jul  9 12:00:03 2018 UTC.  The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at
12:00 huginn Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
12:00 Topic for #koha is now  (Meeting topic: GDPR IRC meeting 9 July 2018)
12:00 huginn The meeting name has been set to 'gdpr_irc_meeting_9_july_2018'
12:00 cait #topic Introductions
12:00 Topic for #koha is now Introductions (Meeting topic: GDPR IRC meeting 9 July 2018)
12:00 cait #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
12:00 marcelr #info Marcel de Rooy, Rijksmuseum
12:00 cait please introduce yourself using #info!
12:00 talljoy #info Joy Nelson ByWater Solutions
12:00 greenjimll #info Jon Knight, Loughborough University
12:00 cait #link https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]_July_2018#Agenda Today's agenda
12:00 m23 #info  Michal Denár, KohaCZ
12:00 cc_ #info Colin Campbell, PTFS-Europe
12:01 cait giving it another minute or so
12:01 anne-claire #info Anne-Claire Bernaudin, librarian, University Rennes 1, France
12:01 cait #topic Status update on planned developments and road map
12:01 Topic for #koha is now Status update on planned developments and road map (Meeting topic: GDPR IRC meeting 9 July 2018)
12:02 cait #link https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]nd_patron_privacy Road map
12:02 cait maybe first some updates then move to the questions?
12:02 marcelr bug 20819 is in needs signoff
12:03 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=20819 enhancement, P5 - low, ---,, Needs Signoff , GDPR: Add a consent field for processing personal data in account menu and self-registration
12:03 cait #info 12 - documentation about cookies used in Koha is done
12:03 cait #info there is also a cookie coding guidelines now, that says that developers have to update the documentation
12:03 cait i will update the table later
12:03 cait marcelr: do you have the number this is referring to?
12:04 marcelr i wrote it at the end of the table
12:04 cait i think it might fit with 13
12:04 marcelr but it touches a few points
12:04 ashimema #info Martin Renvoize - PTFS Europe
12:05 cait i can move it into the table later if you agree
12:05 marcelr yeah fine
12:05 marcelr it combines consent and account deletion request
12:05 cait ok, any other updates on the work underway?
12:05 cait oh that's interesting
12:05 cait because that was on my list
12:05 m23 What about add some new guidelines about private data into development gudelines?
12:06 cait m23 I think that would make a good next topic
12:06 m23 cait ok
12:06 cait #info bug 20819 deleing with patron self registration (consent) and patron deletion is ready for sign off
12:07 marcelr note that adding a deletion request and processing it are two things
12:07 marcelr this is the first part
12:07 cait but you can request one?
12:07 marcelr yeah
12:07 cait that's a good first step
12:07 marcelr you either give a consent or ask to delete your acoount
12:08 marcelr you cannot work without answering
12:08 cait any more updates to the table?
12:08 anne-claire In the table in the wiki page, I don't see anything about old_issues and statistics tables. They need to be anonmyized too, as old_reserves.
12:08 cait anne-claire: there are some entries
12:08 anne-claire Missed it, sorry
12:09 cait number 3
12:09 marcelr is anonimizing the borrower not enough?
12:09 cait and 7 i think
12:09 cait marcelr: at the moment we are not doing that
12:09 cait but it depends on how long you want to store data
12:09 cait there is actually no need to store issues data as logn as the patron exist
12:10 marcelr maybe statistical purposes
12:10 cait yeah, but then you can work with anonymized data too
12:10 cait the idea was to move patron category and age to the statistics table
12:10 cait to remove the need for the link with the patron
12:10 anne-claire For statistics, pseudnomymization would be a need
12:10 anne-claire To identify a single user
12:10 cait and borrowernumber could be removed after some time frame
12:10 cait ok, i will add a new topic then for coding guidelines?
12:11 greenjimll We'd need to be able to tie an old-issue down to the department that the user who made it was in for example, as part of our purchasing system.
12:11 cait where do you store department?
12:11 greenjimll In the attributes for the borrower.
12:11 cait hm
12:11 talljoy ack
12:11 cait maybe we'd need a way to map some data to statistics by configuration
12:12 cait let the library decide what we copy from the patron record
12:12 anne-claire cait: yes
12:12 talljoy have a 'free' field in statistics like sort1, sort2 ?
12:12 cait something like that
12:12 cait what do you think
12:12 cait ?
12:12 talljoy it allows for flexibility for sure
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12:13 cait i can add the idea to 7 latr
12:13 drojf #info Mirko Tietgen, late
12:13 cait #topic Coding Guidelines for privacy
12:13 Topic for #koha is now Coding Guidelines for privacy (Meeting topic: GDPR IRC meeting 9 July 2018)
12:14 cait m23?
12:15 m23 We mabe should inspire by[…]privacy-framework
12:15 cait #link[…]privacy-framework
12:16 m23 Its integrated into core of Joomla, every new plugin, feature or code must corresponded into privacy framework.
12:16 cait #idea (from earlier) Add some columns to statistics that can be mapped to patron data by the library
12:16 m23 If some law change it can be easier to implement it into system
12:17 greenjimll I like the privacy of the Joomla version history:[…]9_version_history
12:17 cait can you give an example?
12:17 cait hm empty for me?
12:17 talljoy me too
12:17 greenjimll Exactly.
12:17 greenjimll :-)
12:17 marcelr private :)
12:18 cait I think i don't understand
12:18 m23 if privacy data are in log, tables developrs know it and know how hadle this data
12:18 MilkManzJourDaddy joined #koha
12:18 m23 all provate data are mapped
12:19 m23 its clear?
12:19 cait sorry, not yet
12:19 cait just hiding the information seems a bit like  Security by obscurity to me
12:20 talljoy yes
12:20 cait security through obscurity (had to look it up)
12:20 talljoy i like that phrase cait!
12:20 greenjimll Not terribly obscure if its documented though.
12:20 cait but what exactly are we not seeing?
12:20 drojf nor secure
12:20 m23 we cant just hide private data, its agianst rules of GDPR
12:21 m23 we must be able to remove or anonymise them
12:21 marcelr m23: do you have specific suggestions for new coding guidelines ?
12:22 m23 marcelr Im not sure .... how specify it
12:22 cait hm maybe something like: don't add more data without a deletion/anonymization stretegy?
12:22 cait like if we added a message_queue again, we'd immediately also provide a script to delete the date/clean up
12:23 cait or... deal with what happens when the patron is deleted
12:23 cait we don't always do that cleanly in the codebase
12:23 marcelr cascaded deletes clean up a lot ..
12:23 cait for example the messages to patrons (the notes) are never cleaned, they remain linked to deletedborrowers
12:23 cait yep, but they are holes currently
12:23 marcelr ok
12:23 m23 every new functionality, plugin thaht hande privacy data must do it clear
12:23 cait so it might be worth giving it some thought implementing new features
12:24 greenjimll And should the method for making patron data anonymous be implemented in the Koha core modules, so that new additions can make use of these rather than reinventing the wheel?
12:24 m23 so first step is mapping privacy date in system/databese
12:24 cait #idea provide a way to clean up/anonymize data at the time of adding new features as well
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12:25 m23 private data can be at easy identify tables, but hiden at logs, messages, etc.
12:25 cait #idea clean up/anonymize data when patron is deleted for new features/tables
12:25 cait we have a list of tables that have links to patron data
12:26 cait not sure if that would be helpful?
12:26 m23 cait, yes, it can help
12:26 cait there are also several cronjobs that can create logs containing patron information
12:26 cait maintaining the list is a bit... hard
12:26 m23 exactly
12:26 cait but i can try to put it on my to do list
12:26 cait an automatic way of documenting this might be nicer
12:26 m23 some kidn "privacy framework" can help in future
12:27 cait we have for example
12:27 cait m23 i think it#s not clear from the page you linked how that works
12:27 cait the readme below is only about Joomla in general
12:27 clrh #info CLaire Hernandez, BibLibre  (bad connection)
12:28 m23 Im not able now to find better info, I'll try
12:28 cait welcome clrh
12:28 drojf m23: do you work with joomla? could you give some more info on how the framework works? as cait said, the repository has no information about it
12:28 drojf in the readme at least
12:29 cait maybe we can discuss next time with some more info on the agenda?
12:29 cait i'd like to move on to the general discussion
12:29 greenjimll This may be more useful for Joomla GDPR support:[…]a-gdpr-compliance
12:29 cait #link[…]a-gdpr-compliance
12:29 m23 cait, OK, if I add some new better info about Joomla or similar solution, I'add link into wiki
12:30 cait thx m23
12:30 drojf link in german about joomla[…]joomla-3-10-dsgvo
12:30 cait m23++
12:30 cait #link[…]joomla-3-10-dsgvo (German)
12:30 cait moving on
12:30 cait #topic General discussion
12:30 Topic for #koha is now General discussion (Meeting topic: GDPR IRC meeting 9 July 2018)
12:31 greenjimll Should I carry on waiting for REST APIs for bug 20028, or put some place holder code in to extract and generate some JSON data directly?
12:31 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=20028 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , Export all patron related personal data in one package
12:31 cait i think waiting for all rest apis needed might take too long
12:31 cait having something a little earlier might be good
12:31 greenjimll OK
12:31 cait what do others think?
12:32 m23 This feature in API can be very useful if library use for exaplet VuFind
12:32 greenjimll I can always do a first cut without the REST APIs and replace it with them when they arrive.
12:33 m23 Solution to provide personal data to download via user accout is very nice to users
12:33 cait i'd use rest api wherever possible
12:33 talljoy What data are you extracting?
12:33 cait but i think having it complete for what we need will take more than this year
12:34 cait talljoy: the rule is everything we store about a patron
12:34 talljoy demographic, fines, circ, old circ, reserves, etc...
12:34 cait has to be provided ina machine readable format
12:34 talljoy the whole kit and kaboodle eh.
12:34 cait for download
12:34 greenjimll It will have to (eventually) extract all information related to the borrower that we hold.
12:34 cait everything
12:34 cait reviews, tags, ...
12:34 m23 especially, issue history, reservation history, payments history ...
12:34 cait star ratings
12:34 talljoy that would be a messy csv, or multiple csvs yes?
12:34 cait we were thinking messy json
12:34 greenjimll I was thinking more JSON than CSV to be honest.
12:34 talljoy :D
12:35 ashimema Can one not already do that using reports
12:35 drojf star ratings …
12:35 greenjimll Should we change it from CSV to JSON in the wiki?
12:35 talljoy a better messy in json.  agreed
12:35 m23 "in one package" can thing more packaes but from one point
12:36 cait i think coudl also be a zip file?
12:36 drojf a zip with a lot of files is a package
12:36 drojf heh
12:36 talljoy :D
12:36 cait i think reports would be hard because lots of unions
12:36 cait not easy to provide a big one
12:36 m23 zip are best for bigger files
12:36 talljoy would be an unwiedly report.
12:36 cait ashimema: do you have something developed maybe?
12:37 cait i think maybe we hsould not overthink it
12:37 cait but try to get something in place so we comply
12:37 cait and then refine
12:37 greenjimll OK, I'll make a start on extracting some data so there's something to test and build upon.
12:38 cait greenjimll++
12:38 cait I think marcelr's development might be dealing with my 'request account deletion'
12:38 cait can you confirm marcel?
12:38 cait #info see bug 20819 for requesting account deletion
12:38 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=20819 enhancement, P5 - low, ---,, Needs Signoff , GDPR: Add a consent field for processing personal data in account menu and self-registration
12:39 cait i think he said he only had half an hour
12:39 cait the other thing came up here in discussion about anonymizing automatically using the cronjobs
12:39 m23 What about some extension of current anonymisation tool? Like list of anonymised patrons, because some library must be able to finf paper contract to remove them after anonymise "digital" data in Koha.
12:39 cait a new patron registerts at the library, they fill out a form and sign it, it's stored, the patron expires, the automatic deletion happens after x months... the paper remains
12:40 cait m23: using the tool that works, but what about using the cronjob?
12:40 m23 Tool os betetr for this scenary insn!t it?
12:41 cait not sure, i think it's easy to forget
12:41 cait every manual process is
12:41 m23 Cronjob is good, but how list names that was/waill be anonymised?
12:41 cait #info What happens to registration forms when a patron is deleted automatically (expired since...)
12:42 cait yeah exactly
12:42 cait i was hoping someone could provide a good idea :)
12:43 talljoy sounds like the cron would need to have a 'report' option that could be emailed once it runs and anonymizes patrons
12:43 talljoy report containing the list of names so the library could remove paper contract?
12:43 m23 automatic way willl be better ... maybe Koha can send list by mailer, what do You think?
12:43 cait talljoy: emailing is not quite what we want... (privacy) but maybe a file that can be accessed
12:44 m23 yeah
12:44 talljoy again back to manual.
12:44 cait because you'd email patron names and cardnumbers i think... as a minnum
12:44 talljoy someone has to go get the file
12:44 greenjimll The UK ICO says that you need to keep consent forms:[…]ocessing/consent/
12:44 talljoy or automate another process to grab the file and move it somewhere else
12:44 cait yep - just email is not encrypted usually or signed
12:44 cait or at least that's harder to do
12:44 cait getting a file from the server might be easier in a safe way
12:45 cait hm something to think about :)
12:45 cait someone got something else?
12:45 m23 so tool can be other solutio :-)
12:46 m23 wit caledar reminder :-)
12:46 cait #idea add a tool to remind of tasks regularly (like anonymizing data)
12:46 m23 cait great!
12:47 anne-claire great idea, a reminder !
12:47 talljoy that's what google calendar is for.
12:47 cait talljoy: you are killing our fun :)
12:47 talljoy heh
12:47 cait maybe repariing the scheduler could already hlep
12:47 m23 and extend anon toll with list of patrons to view/download
12:47 talljoy NOW there is a good idead Cait!
12:47 cait #info idea repair the scheduler!
12:47 talljoy m23 yes!
12:48 cait hm i am getting confused with infos and ideas
12:48 cait maybe time to end the meeting?
12:48 m23 :-)
12:48 cait we'll have a poll about the next data again i think if noone is opposed?
12:48 talljoy add m23 idea about the tool providing a preview
12:48 cait oh yes
12:49 cait #idea Provide a review of patrons to delete or a list of patrons deleted when running the patron deletion/anonymizing tool
12:49 cait hope that made sense
12:49 cait hm review preview...
12:49 cait gah.
12:49 cait #idea review = preview
12:50 cait ending in a minute or so if nothing else comes up
12:50 m23 thanks for debate :-)
12:50 cait thx all for attending!
12:50 greenjimll In bug 20819 do we store the consent form they consented to?
12:50 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=20819 enhancement, P5 - low, ---,, Needs Signoff , GDPR: Add a consent field for processing personal data in account menu and self-registration
12:51 cait i think marcelr is no longer around
12:51 cait maybe leave him a later?
12:51 greenjimll OK
12:51 cait or comment on the bug
12:51 cait might be more efficient
12:51 talljoy thanks cait!  good meeting.  til next time.
12:51 cait #endmeeting
12:51 Topic for #koha is now Welcome to #koha this channel is for discussion of the Koha project and software
12:51 huginn Meeting ended Mon Jul  9 12:51:23 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)
12:51 huginn Minutes:        http://meetings.koha-community[…]-07-09-12.00.html
12:51 huginn Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community[…]8-07-09-12.00.txt
12:51 huginn Log:            http://meetings.koha-community[…]09-12.00.log.html
12:51 drojf cait++
12:51 m23 bye
12:53 LeeJ joined #koha
12:53 * LeeJ waves
12:53 LeeJ hi #koha
12:53 talljoy hi leej
12:54 LeeJ hi talljoy!
12:56 clrh thnals cait and sorry, train is not a good way to follow the meeting, I will re-read everythnging soon
12:56 greenjimll Thanks cait!
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14:58 epinky I'm having trouble enable ldap authentication in Koha 18.05, I don't see any errors in /var/log/koha/library/opac-error.log I have followed this tuto[…]/07/09/koha-ldap/  can anyone help?
15:04 cait yay - elasticsearch bugs pqa :D
15:04 cait epinky: sorry, not experienced with ldap
15:04 cait maybe try the mailing list if you don't catch an expert here
15:04 reiveune bye
15:04 reiveune left #koha
15:04 cait it's end of work day in europe, maybe tomorrow or later tonight would be better
15:05 epinky cait: will wait , I really need this
15:10 cait did you have it working in annother version of koha?
15:12 epinky cait: nope
15:14 cait this might be helpful, it#s newer
15:14 cait[…]otocols.html#ldap
15:15 epinky cait: thank you, have followed it, however no log about login attempts is written
15:16 epinky cait: do you know how to troubleshoot if no logs appear?
15:21 cait there is a section about touble shooting
15:21 cait apart from that i don't know
15:21 cait maybe th wiki? has some mor info
15:21 cait wiki?
15:21 cait hm, bot is not here
15:21 cait
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17:38 cait joined #koha
17:57 * cait sighs finding more emails in the 'almost spam' directory
17:58 * LeeJ can relate to cait
17:59 cait got confused on the mailing list... just ignore me
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19:21 LeeJ @later tell khall no dice on the restart :(
19:21 huginn LeeJ: The operation succeeded.
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20:26 epinky anyone can help me with ldap
20:26 epinky ?
20:27 epinky I cnanot make it work with koha
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