IRC log for #koha, 2017-08-31

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
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00:49 aleisha hey Francesca
00:49 wahanui Francesca is a musical front end cat person
00:50 Francesca hey
00:50 aleisha hows it
00:50 Francesca busy busy - studying for a test and planning essays
00:50 Francesca you?
00:51 aleisha do you not get a break?
00:51 aleisha im good, enjoying being able to come to work everyday tbh
00:51 Francesca I do get a break from classes
00:51 Francesca but need to get ahead on assingments
00:51 Francesca most of the stuff is due right after the break
00:52 aleisha yeah i know that feel, i have a test in the first week back
00:52 Francesca same
00:52 Francesca thats what I'm studying for lol
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04:20 Amit_Gupta hi all
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06:07 reiveune hello
06:23 * magnuse waves
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06:30 magnuse timezones is
06:33 alex_a hello magnuse
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07:01 marcelr hi #koha
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07:35 gaetan_B hello
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07:51 andreashm morning #koha
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08:33 * cait waves
08:33 cait marcelr: around?
08:33 marcelr hi cait
08:35 * andreashm waves too
08:35 cait can you maybe help me - I was wondering if the xsl scripts in the z39.50 config should also work for authority servers?
08:36 cait i am not sure if it's me or the code
08:36 cait hi andreashm!
08:36 marcelr iirc the code does not allow it currently
08:36 cait gah, I was hoping you'd say it's me :)
08:36 cait I will file a bug report
08:36 marcelr it has been copied from the biblio code and adjusted/stripped ?
08:37 cait in our national authority file there is a lot of data in $9 - and Koha thinks that's the ids to link on... it created quite a mess
08:37 marcelr ok
08:37 cait I was looking for a way to get rid of the $9 similar to the script that is available for bibliographic
08:38 cait the xsl scripts would have been ideal, not sure there is another way now
08:38 cait i will file a bug/enh for adding the feature to the authority servers
08:38 marcelr yeah
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08:53 cait bug 19220
08:53 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=19220 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , Allow XSLT procsessing for Z39.50 authority targets like for bibliographic targets
09:00 andreashm Is there anything being done with the script in bug 14598 at the moment?
09:00 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=14598 major, P5 - low, ---, tomascohen, Pushed to Master , itemtype is not set on statistics by C4::Circulation::AddReturn
09:01 andreashm From what I understand this makes upgrading with a large database virtually impossible.
09:02 andreashm Unless the library in question handles it themselves and changes this update function (see the last comments on the bug)
09:07 cait andreashm: I don't know about recent activity - but could you leave a comment on it?
09:08 andreashm cait: will do!
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09:27 nyogtang hello
09:28 nyogtang i am having some problem regarding the Koha OPAC page. I have installed successfully my koha and done the web installer as well. But when i try to open my OPAC page, it says "System Maintenance  The Koha online catalog is offline for system maintenance. We'll be back soon! If you have any questions, please contact the site administrator"
09:30 cait have you run the web installer yet?
09:30 nyogtang yes i have
09:30 cait have you restarted Plack?
09:31 cait can you access the staff interface?
09:31 nyogtang i am  newbe in koha here. Can you explain more on plack?
09:32 nyogtang yes i can access staff interface
09:34 cait not sure I can explain it well
09:34 cait but if you are runnign on packages
09:34 cait try on command line:
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09:34 cait sudo koha-plack --restart <yourinstancename>
09:34 cait hi kidclamp!
09:35 kidclamp hi cait
09:35 cait oh, it could also be one other thing, someome could have activated the maintenance mode manually, check the system preference OpacMaintenance too - but it's more unlikely
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09:38 nyogtang Ok thanks That was the case. I m sorry for the trouble but thanks again
09:39 magnuse cait++
09:39 cait phew great
09:39 cait glad it work snow
09:39 cait works now :)
09:40 nyogtang yes. Thanks alot.
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09:55 magnuse woohoo, just created my first koha instance with --letsencrypt!
09:57 kidclamp magnuse++
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10:02 * andreashm waves
10:02 * magnuse sends drojf some round tuits for bug 16662
10:02 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=16662 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, mirko, NEW , Letsencrypt II: Return of the cryptosaurus. (make it work for existing instances)
10:03 magnuse but i'll probably make ansible help me out with it anyway...
10:04 magnuse alexbuckley++ for the onboarding tool!
10:20 * magnuse just created attachment 66666
10:20 huginn Attachment[…]66666&action=edit image/png, Screenshot from the onboarding tool, onboarding-superlibrarian.png
10:31 cait oh new huginn trick
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11:33 oleonard Hi all
11:34 meliss joined #koha
11:36 marcelr hi oleonard
11:36 wahanui hi olé onard
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11:58 tcohen bonjour
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12:06 rsantellan good morning #koha
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12:32 * LeeJ waves
12:32 LeeJ morning #koha
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12:38 kidclamp morning leeJ
12:41 * LibraryClaire waves
12:42 * LeeJ waves back to LibraryClaire
12:44 * oleonard waves at LibraryClaire and then awkwardly realizes she was waving at someone behind him
12:45 * LibraryClaire waves to oleonard
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12:45 tcohen morning
12:47 LeeJ hahaha
12:47 * LeeJ waves to oleonard and tcohen
12:47 * cait waves in all directions
12:47 marcelr serious waving
12:48 * LibraryClaire 's arm falls off
12:48 * cait screams
12:48 * LibraryClaire goes in search of brains
12:48 marcelr :q
12:48 marcelr lol
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12:49 * LeeJ waves to cait
12:49 marcelr trivial patch bug 19222
12:49 * LeeJ also waves to marcelr
12:49 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=19222 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, Needs Signoff , Why does dt_from_string not understand yyyy-mm-ddThh:mm:ss ?
12:49 marcelr o/
12:50 tcohen marcelr: it even adds tests :-D
12:50 marcelr 80% is testing
12:56 * magnuse waves in norwegian
12:56 Joubu hi #koha
12:56 marcelr hi Joubu
12:56 cait hi Joubu
12:56 Joubu marcelr: I do not think it is relevant, why do you want to support it?
12:56 marcelr i paste such values into dt_from_string in a script and it kills the time
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12:57 Joubu but you are not supposed to manipulate them
12:57 Joubu it's string representation of DateTime objects
12:57 marcelr i get these values from outside xml
13:00 Joubu marcelr: could you explain a use case on the bug report?
13:00 Joubu at first glance I'd say you are trying to fix an error that occured before in the process
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13:02 marcelr i add a comment
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13:03 tcohen hi Joubu
13:04 tcohen Joubu: I don't think adding more formats to dt_from_string would be problematic
13:05 Joubu it could hide a problem
13:05 Joubu like manipulating string representation of datetime :)
13:06 tcohen maybe the implementation should be different
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13:11 Joubu tcohen: bug 19116 could you give your opinion on what I suggest?
13:11 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=19116 critical, P5 - low, ---, josef.moravec, Failed QA , Holds not set to waiting when "Confirm" is used
13:11 vegasjoe Is there someone that can point me to a resolution to borrowernumber problem? the borrowernumber is not autocalculating.
13:11 tcohen Joubu: yes, as soon as I finish answering your BIG RED WARNING email, boss
13:11 tcohen :-D
13:12 marcelr another red warning ?
13:14 Joubu vegasjoe: autocalculating? what do you mean?
13:15 vegasjoe When adding a new patron, the auto generating of a new borrowernumber is not working for me
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13:16 vegasjoe similiar to https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6782
13:16 huginn Bug 6782: enhancement, P5 - low, ---, meenakshi.r, RESOLVED FIXED, Move auto member cardnumber generation to occur when record is "Saved" (avoid collisions)
13:17 vegasjoe I have updated to the latest version of koha17.05.03.000
13:18 Joubu it's not borrowernumber but cardnumber then?
13:24 kidclamp LeeJ++
13:25 vegasjoe yes the cardnumber sorry
13:25 LeeJ kidclamp++ # there are not enough increments for this guy
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13:26 Freddy_Enrique Good morning guys
13:27 Joubu vegasjoe: using ldap?
13:27 Joubu bug 17215
13:27 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=17215 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, ldjamison, Needs Signoff , Cardnumbers of patrons created using LDAP Replication not using autoMemberNum if configured
13:27 vegasjoe I am not using LDAP
13:28 Freddy_Enrique yesterday I made some test using the sql backup of the system to see if I could solve table problem. But it didn't get installed when I upgraded to 17.05 and the terminal doesn't show any errors
13:31 Joubu vegasjoe: please open a bug report and explain what happens
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13:31 vegasjoe Ok
13:32 magnuse Freddy_Enrique: you have seen bug 18836?
13:32 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=18836 major, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , MySQL 5.7 - Table 'koha_library.club_enrollments' doesn't exist
13:32 magnuse ah, yes, you commented on it. sorry! :-)
13:33 Freddy_Enrique jejeje
13:33 Freddy_Enrique btw...what Magnus Enger said is the solution?
13:34 Freddy_Enrique it looks to me like that is a procedure to create the missing table
13:35 Freddy_Enrique indeed, after installing the phpmyadmin I couldn't see the club table, but so weird considering that this time I got to see the instalation page to update the database
13:47 vegasjoe I have submitted the bug. https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=19224
13:47 huginn Bug 19224: minor, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , Cardnumber is not auto calculating during new borrower registration
13:48 vegasjoe I see in the code that when is called that is passes input parameters. Is there a log that would show me the input parameters?
13:53 Joubu vegasjoe: remove "cardnumber" from the system preference 'BorrowerMandatoryField'
13:56 vegasjoe Joubu: that worked
13:56 vegasjoe thanks
14:02 Joubu vegasjoe: please close the bug report (mark it as resolved > invalid) and explain how you fixed it
14:06 vegasjoe Ok
14:09 pastebot "tcohen" at pasted "Joubu, khall: Pagination plugin usage example" (50 lines) at
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14:10 khall looks great tcohen!
14:10 tcohen khall, Joubu: there's room for generalization I think
14:10 khall tcohen: definitely
14:14 tcohen I will propose to have page and per_page as reserved words
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15:35 reiveune bye
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15:53 cait hm i forgot tos end a reminder about the documentation meeting
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16:01 Joubu cait: you still have time
16:09 LeeJ cait: 21 UTC is ~5 hours from now correct? Still getting used to doing the time conversion on the fly :P
16:13 cait there is a link on the wiki that should help you: )
16:13 cait Joubu: i will do it when i am home
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16:14 cait unless someone else wnats to? it will take a bit longer
16:14 cait LeeJ: https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]meeting_31_August the time converter link
16:14 cait bbl
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16:34 LeeJ cait: danke :)
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16:51 gaetan_B bye
17:01 LeeJ be back in a bit :)
17:07 eythian @later tell kathryn[…]esk-in-wellington
17:07 huginn eythian: The operation succeeded.
17:09 barton eythian: I don't know where else, other than #koha, I would ever have seen that, and thought 'huh, how appropriate!'. :-)
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17:36 LeeJ cait: I'm heading out for now..trying to get some work done while no one is barging into my office :P I'll be back for the meeting :)
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18:51 tcohen hi
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19:09 * cait waves
19:09 cait 2 hours to documentation meeting!
19:13 * Freddy_Enrique Hi cait
19:13 cait hi Freddy_Enrique :)
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19:19 * andreashm waves
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19:33 andreashm Documentation meeting coming up ey? I didn't even know that there was documentation meetings...
19:35 Freddy_Enrique what its it about? Forgive, new to this subject
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19:42 andreashm Freddy_Enrique: https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]meeting_31_August
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19:48 cait andreashm: it might be the first
19:49 cait you are all very welcome :)
19:51 andreashm cait: thanks! =)
19:54 andreashm cait: how are things down in Germany?
19:54 cait super busy :)
19:54 cait we are migrating the goethe institute libraries
19:54 andreashm well, that's a change! er, or not.
19:55 andreashm oh cool
19:55 cait one in stockholm too i believe
19:55 cait ah, but you are not there :(
19:55 cait how are things where you are? :)
19:55 andreashm I think so. Seem to recall talking about it some months ago.
19:55 andreashm Back in Stockholm. Back at work. All's good!
19:55 cait oh!
19:56 cait when did you move back?
19:56 andreashm A month ago. Back at work last week.
20:01 cait cool
20:01 cait i saw that lund is going to use Koha?
20:02 cait I still tell people about how cool I think Viola is :)
20:05 andreashm hehe, awesome.
20:05 andreashm yeah, lund is migrating next year I think.
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20:08 andreashm the Swedish koha user group might do a hackfest (sort of) there sometime this fall, november or so.
20:11 cait :)
20:12 cait hackfests are fun
20:13 andreashm indeed
20:13 andreashm or, the only one I've been to was fun at least
20:14 andreashm this will be smaller though, national focus to begin with. (many libraries new to Koha here as you know)
20:17 cait I am bit jealous that you got a user group :)
20:18 cait we don't have that in Germany yet
20:22 cait maybe someday
20:36 Freddy_Enrique heh.....Germany.... Koha really knows no boundaries
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20:47 andreashm sorry cait, was away for a bit.
20:47 cait was distracted too, all good
20:47 andreashm but shouldn't Germany have enough libraries to start a user group by now?
20:48 andreashm the Swedish one is very loosely organized... more of a network than a proper user group. I think that is a good way to start
20:49 cait yeah, but I tihnk the libraries have to start it
20:49 cait so not us :)
20:49 andreashm I think you're right
20:49 cait brb in time for starting the meeting
20:51 * Freddy_Enrique crossing fingers :)
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20:56 * LeeJ waves
20:57 LeeJ made it!
20:57 cait me too :)
20:57 BobB joined #koha
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20:58 cait hi BobB :)
20:58 LeeJ can't figure out why in the world C4::Context->preference('KohaAdminEmailAddress') isn't returning the expected value in an if statement :'(
20:59 BobB hi cait :)
20:59 BobB good morning #koha
20:59 cait do you want to share your code somewhere?
20:59 jzairo hi LeeJ cait
20:59 cait :)
20:59 cait hi jzairo!
20:59 jzairo :)
20:59 * LeeJ waves to BobB and jzairo
20:59 clintD G'day Bob
21:00 * cait is happy to see people arriving
21:00 LeeJ :)
21:00 cait I will give it another minute before starting the meeting
21:00 BobB hi clintD
21:00 Freddy_Enrique what is it there?
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21:01 cait hi atheia!
21:01 atheia hello :-)
21:01 atheia How's things?
21:01 Freddy_Enrique I meant, what time is it tehre?
21:01 cait it's 11pm in germany
21:01 pastebot "LeeJ" at pasted "C4::Context->preference() problem" (7 lines) at
21:01 cait ok, let's start :)
21:01 LeeJ ok..we can look at my paste after :)
21:02 LeeJ after/tomorrow :)
21:02 BobB its 7am here
21:02 LeeJ let's start :D
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21:02 cait #startmeeting Documentation IRC Meeting 31 August
21:02 huginn Meeting started Thu Aug 31 21:02:25 2017 UTC.  The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at
21:02 huginn Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
21:02 Topic for #koha is now  (Meeting topic: Documentation IRC Meeting 31 August)
21:02 huginn The meeting name has been set to 'documentation_irc_meeting_31_august'
21:02 * BobB needs coffee
21:02 cait #topic Introductions
21:02 wahanui #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
21:02 Topic for #koha is now Introductions (Meeting topic: Documentation IRC Meeting 31 August)
21:02 Freddy_Enrique 16:00 p.m here
21:02 cait #link https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]meeting_31_August Today's agenda
21:02 bgkriegel #info Bernardo Gonzalez Kriegel, Argentina
21:02 BobB #info Bob Birchall, Calyx , Australia
21:02 LeeJ #info Lee Jamison, Marywood University
21:02 cait #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
21:03 atheia #info Alex Sassmannshausen, Brussels
21:03 georgewilliams #info George Williams, Northeast Kansas Library System
21:03 clintD #info Clint Deckard-Anact NZ
21:03 jzairo #info
21:03 kellym #info Kelly McElligott Bywater Solutions
21:03 jzairo #info Jessica Zairo - Tampa Florida  ByWater Solutions
21:03 kholt #info Karen Holt, ByWater Solutions
21:03 Freddy_Enrique #info Freddy Pelayo, Ensabap, Peru
21:03 irma #info Irma CALYX Australia
21:04 cait wow :)
21:04 LeeJ cait++
21:04 cait glad to see you all here to talk about documentation
21:04 cait moving on to our first topic
21:04 cait #topic How does it work?
21:04 Topic for #koha is now How does it work? (Meeting topic: Documentation IRC Meeting 31 August)
21:04 francharb #info Francois Charbonnier, inLibro, Canada
21:05 cait some of you might be aware that we switched the tools used to write and generate the manual
21:05 francharb yes
21:05 cait up to 17.05 DocBook was used
21:05 Joubu #info Jonathan Druart
21:05 cait and the manual was one big XML file that was a challenge to edit
21:06 cait you'd need specific tools able to handle the file
21:06 cait so for 17.11 rangi has converted the manual to use reStructuredText and Sphinx for generating it
21:06 cait the new syntax is easier to edit
21:06 cait he has also split up the manual into several files
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21:07 bag #info Brendan Gallagher ByWater
21:07 cait #info up to 17.05 the manual was using DocBook, now using reStructuredText and Sphinx
21:07 Joubu and the display is better :)
21:07 cait #link https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]g_the_Koha_Manual Information how to edit the manual
21:08 cait so now that the technical bits have been improved
21:08 cait we need to start working out how to move forward with how to keep it up to date
21:08 cait but as this is still the 'how does it work topic' - let's talk about this later
21:08 cait if you go to the wiki, you will see that we have tried to describe ways on how to edit the manual
21:08 barton #info Barton Chittenden, bws.
21:08 cait the easiest way is using gitlab, as it doesn't require you to install anything
21:09 TGoat #info TGoat
21:09 wahanui #info TGoat is going to work on fundraising
21:09 cait you can do it all in the browser, make changes to a file and create a 'merge request' that the documentation team will review and then merge into the manual
21:09 LeeJ and I took the liberty of creating a quick YouTube video to demonstrate how to make changes and commit them to be merged!
21:09 cait thx!
21:10 LeeJ #link video tutorial how to use GitLab
21:10 cait #info LeeJ created a YouTube video to make the process easier to understand
21:10 atheia I can see it is linked in to the Getting_Involved page. That's cool :-)
21:10 Freddy_Enrique LeeJ++
21:10 LeeJ :)
21:10 cait nicely jzairo has created a new merge request just before the meeting, so I can show you ;)
21:10 cait #link[…]cs/merge_requests Merge requests
21:10 LeeJ jzairo++
21:11 cait if one wants to, you can of course also use git locally and submit changes from there, there is also some instructions for that
21:11 cait and LeeJ has started work to add the tools to the kohadevbox
21:11 cait #info LeeJ has started to add the kohadoc tools to kohadevbox
21:12 LeeJ yes! with tcohen's help we have the ability to enable kohadocs as well as sync the kohadocs repo from the user.yml file
21:12 cait a great plus for Sphinx is that it#s super easy to generate the manual in different formats
21:12 cait html for our websites, but also epub
21:13 cait it's just one command
21:13 LeeJ with that being said, creating a merge request is yet untested via command line as I have had a hard time figuring out a way to connect the keys GitLab requires to do it
21:13 cait #link[…]vs-users/kohadocs Instructions on how to create the manual locally
21:13 LeeJ so if anyone would like to help me figure out a way we'd be grateful :)
21:13 cait ok, any questions about the technical stuff? I will try to answer best I can :)
21:14 francharb yes
21:14 Joubu how do we translate it? :)
21:14 cait you are jumping topics heh
21:14 francharb is there a way to generate the manual for 16.05 with sphinx
21:14 francharb ?
21:14 cait both good questions
21:15 cait I think we will talk about translating a little later if that's ok?
21:15 Joubu yep
21:15 cait francharb: I think it would technically be possible, but I am not sure if it makes sense
21:15 cait with the conversion the links in the help files in Koha have to be changed
21:15 cait and also a lot of work has been done to fix some other problems with the conversion like fixing the links inside the manual between chapters
21:16 francharb it's because the translation would be easier from the splitted po files that comes with the new documentation process
21:16 francharb ok
21:16 francharb got it
21:16 cait Joubu++ for doing those 2 things for u
21:16 cait s
21:17 Joubu scripting++ :)
21:17 francharb @cait, @Joubu issues fixed manually?
21:17 huginn francharb: I'll give you the answer just as soon as RDA is ready
21:17 Joubu francharb: bug 18817
21:17 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=18817 minor, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Pushed to Master , Update links in the help files for the new 17.11 manual
21:17 Joubu for the links from the Koha codebase
21:18 Joubu and this is the change for the manual:[…]merge_requests/34
21:19 francharb ok
21:19 francharb thanks
21:19 cait if it's ok i will move on
21:19 cait we will get to the translation bits sooner
21:19 cait #topic What's been done so far
21:19 Topic for #koha is now What's been done so far (Meeting topic: Documentation IRC Meeting 31 August)
21:19 cait #info We set up instructions and documentation on how to edit the manual
21:20 cait #info Alex Buckley added new chapters for the installation process and onboarding tool
21:20 LeeJ yay!
21:20 Freddy_Enrique heh :)
21:20 cait #info Lee J has updated and added missing system preference up to the current state of things
21:21 cait #info Joubu has fixed the inter-manual links and 17.11 will link to the new manual from the help files
21:21 cait #info Jessica Zairo has added information about the Article Request feature
21:21 cait did I forget something?
21:21 LeeJ uhhh...not that I can think of
21:21 jzairo me either
21:21 cait so we have started, but a lot of work remains :)
21:21 wizzyrea hi
21:21 wahanui hello, wizzyrea
21:22 cait since Nicole started her new job the manual hasn't been regularly updated and we need to do a bit of catch up there
21:22 cait #link to-do list for manual work
21:22 BobB yeah, from time to time we come across the gaps
21:23 cait I have started a 'framapad' that works like an etherpad, so everyone can just go in and add something
21:23 cait #action all if you notice something is missing from the manual or needs to be corrected, please add a note to the to-do list
21:23 cait I have listed some of the bigger tasks at the top, but there is also a heading for every chapter
21:24 cait for example you could also help by taking the release notes and checking them against the manual, so we get a list of things to add
21:24 cait you can see that jzairo has added a note 'added JZ' to MarcItemFieldsToOrder (description needed)
21:25 cait that's the one in the merge request I showed earlier
21:25 cait jzairo++
21:25 LeeJ I'd also like to point out that from what I've looked over, the cronjobs section is a bit...haphazard :)
21:25 cait oh yes
21:25 LeeJ heh
21:26 cait #info Katrin has removed the SOPAC2 related chapters
21:26 wizzyrea cait++
21:26 cait #link Sneak peak for the 17.11 manual created with Sphinx
21:26 cait peek...
21:26 Kafilini joined #koha
21:26 cait ?
21:26 wizzyrea peek :)
21:27 wizzyrea (but it's ok)
21:27 cait at the moment that's generated manually by rangi - so it will not be updated immediately with a merge, but you will be able to see your changes there
21:27 cait and also good for checking what's still missing of course
21:27 LeeJ perhaps it might be helpful if whoever adds a note to the to-do list to include a bug number next to their entry if it would be helpful in documenting the item to be added
21:28 francharb is it planned to document how to generate the manual bu yourself?
21:28 cait it won't be linked to for now - as we are still working on things and 17.11 has not been released yet
21:28 cait francharb: we already have, take alook at the gitlab start page for the kohadocs I linked earlier
21:28 cait it's super easy, clone the kohadocs repo, install some packages, run vrey few commands
21:28 francharb perfect!
21:28 wahanui perfect is the enemy of good
21:29 cait kellym++ I just saw another merge request in my inbox :D
21:29 cait ok, now comes the hard part
21:29 kellym I am working with Jzairo on learning the process!
21:29 cait #topic Next steps
21:29 Topic for #koha is now Next steps (Meeting topic: Documentation IRC Meeting 31 August)
21:30 cait the manual is huuuuuuuge
21:30 BobB and getting huger :)
21:30 cait we think keeping it current can't be done by a single person - we need a team of people doing this
21:30 LeeJ ^exactly
21:31 cait so we worked to make it as easy as we can and we can help everyone who wants to give it a try
21:31 Brooke it's been a bear for a few years now
21:31 barton could we split it apart?
21:31 cait but rangi and me can't write it all :) even with the help we already got, the more the better it will be
21:31 LeeJ and I've been helping when I can :D
21:32 cait barton: if someone wanted to take on a chapter or so - just note it on the todo list
21:32 francharb @cait, to me the problem is that sometimes I'm not even sure how new features work
21:32 huginn francharb: I'll give you the answer just as soon as RDA is ready
21:33 cait #info manual writing is not a single person job - needs a team of people
21:33 barton ouch huginn, too soon.
21:33 atheia Part of this could be solved by making it a requirement of the QA process to have a draft chapter for the manual for new features perhaps?
21:33 atheia (was that already decided upon?)
21:33 jzairo teamwork!
21:33 cait not yet
21:33 francharb can we ask the sign-offer to do a bit of wrap up about what they tested and how the feature works?
21:33 LeeJ I second atheia's suggestion
21:33 francharb me too
21:34 atheia Well — personally I think it should be the dev's responsibility…
21:34 cait francharb: we could but actually the developers should provide that with their commit messages
21:34 cait and test plans
21:34 wahanui test plans are awesome.  at least it gives context for where to go even if minimal.
21:34 LeeJ that's actually a great idea
21:34 cait if anything is unclear, it's always ok to note on the bug and ask
21:34 francharb +1
21:34 cait also sign-offers can take notes of course, where something additional had to be set up
21:34 atheia agreed.
21:35 cait i try that when I run into sometihng, but not sure we can make it a general rule, but it#s a rule that we should have test plans and descriptive commit messages
21:35 cait Joubu just sent an emai ltoday to remind devs :)
21:35 georgewilliams I think asking sign-offers to do more is problematic considering how hard it can be to get people just to sign off on things
21:35 cait georgewilliams: yeah, I am a ibt worried about that too
21:35 francharb true
21:35 atheia +1
21:36 TGoat that's what so important about fundraising georgewilliams .. but that's a whole different topic
21:36 cait but yeah, if you don't understand, please ask and make notes
21:36 cait even documentation bug reports
21:36 atheia Whereas if an organization / individual has a stake in adding a feature, they would also have the incentive to document it (even if they don't enjoy that process)
21:36 BobB cait the 'todo' list is where everything is controlled?
21:37 BobB so if working on something, we should grab it there?
21:37 cait #action all - a 'Manual' keyword has been added to Bugzilla - please mark bugs that you think needs something added or changed in the manual (ideally with a comment)
21:37 BobB it would be sad to document something and then find someone else beat you to it
21:37 cait BobB: for now I think yes - I wanted to keep it a bit lower barrier than bugzilla even
21:37 barton I think that documentation should be a QA requirement -- not necessarily that the dev needs to do it themselves, but they should be responsible for making sure that it gets done.
21:37 cait if that doesn't work we can of course do something else
21:37 Joubu I think the developper must provide a description of what the new ft/enh is supposed to do. But it would make sense to have dedicated persons to "translate" developper language into manual sentences :)
21:37 BobB barton +1
21:38 georgewilliams Joubu+
21:38 LeeJ barton++ Joubu++
21:38 atheia Barton, I like your idea.
21:38 irma Joubu+
21:38 Joubu I will be terrible at describing correctly what my features do :)
21:38 Freddy_Enrique Joubu++
21:38 cait #action all - if you start working on some addition to the manual, please add a note on the to-do list (like 'cait working on this')
21:39 rangi here now
21:40 cait there is also a module for documentation on Bugzilla
21:40 atheia Whilst I understand your perspective Joubu [some people just aren't great communicators — or there might be language issues for devs], at the same time I feel devs should be expected to take responsibility for the code they add by documenting it.
21:40 cait I will try to add saved searches for both and the links to the wiki and the to-do list
21:40 LeeJ hi rangi
21:40 indradg #info Indranil Das Gupta, L2C2 Technologies, India
21:40 atheia That's why I like Barton's harder requirement of the dev/organization having responsibility to get someone to write the documentation.
21:40 cait #action cait to add saved searches and links to them for the Manual keyword and Documentation module from Bugzilla
21:40 atheia That could be a dedicated specialist or anyone else…
21:42 cait I am not sure we have the people for that
21:42 Joubu The manual needs to keep a certain homogeneity/consistency, if 30 different guys are going to describe features in 30 different ways... it will be a mess
21:42 cait but devs should try to document as best as they can
21:42 rangi Joubu: thats what editors do
21:42 rangi im happy to edit
21:42 georgewilliams rangi+
21:42 rangi but i dont have time to read everyones features to figure out what they do
21:42 Joubu I would prefer to work with someone, incrementaly
21:43 rangi if they write it as best they can, i can edit that
21:43 rangi (new features this is)
21:43 bag also that is too much work
21:43 BobB the workflow is that the documentor submits a merge request? then an editor can finesse it, is that right?
21:43 Joubu rangi: yes, it's more or less what we said, devs have to describe the feature in the commit message + test plan already
21:43 rangi Joubu: yeah, but they don't ;)
21:43 rangi BobB: yes
21:43 barton bag: supporting undocumented features is a lot of work too.
21:43 cait yep or can help the committer improve it
21:44 Joubu maybe they don't, but they should
21:44 cait yeah i think if we have a good manual, we are also less likely to break features noone knew about (hopefully) :)
21:44 Joubu (and have to)
21:44 bag I mean for an editor barton ;)
21:44 rangi bag: we have a coms team at work i can lean on for help
21:44 atheia Joubu — just to clarify, do you also agree that having this description, whether as a draft chapter or extensive commit messages, should be a QA requirement for new features?
21:45 atheia ah k,
21:45 cait atheia:  itis
21:45 rangi what they cant do is figure out from a 10 line commit message what the feature does
21:45 atheia sorry saw your later messag later :-)
21:45 rangi but they can certainly tidy up peoples english
21:45 cait i mean we already have rules about test plans and commit messages
21:46 bag sweet - up - let’s get all the commits first - and then we can figure out the quality aspect - and it looks like rangi’s got ideas for that
21:46 rangi we must all have some specs/docs from the people who want the feature right? even making them available would help
21:46 cait yep
21:47 cait and if a library writes something and is not sure about how to get it in the manual
21:47 rangi jzairo++
21:47 cait I am willing to format it
21:47 LeeJ would it be worth entertaining the idea of a documentation/manual notes textarea in the bug header? For example, say under the field "Text to go in the release notes"?
21:47 LeeJ in terms of bugs for new features
21:47 rangi i think its easier to find people to 'fix' stuff, than to write stuff :)
21:47 bag hmm not a bad idea
21:47 Brooke LeeJ +1
21:47 wizzyrea vaguely hard with screen shots.
21:47 barton LeeJ +1
21:47 cait I was going to suggest to revive the koha-docs mailing list for things like that
21:48 cait LeeJ: I am not sure, but the fields might be limited in size
21:48 bag good point wizzyrea - can we hack bugzilla to meet that need?
21:48 indradg cait +1
21:48 rangi i like the ml idea
21:48 barton I'd subscribe to koha-docs in a heartbeat.
21:48 rangi because people dont need a login for that
21:48 cait sec I wil get a link
21:48 cait hm they have to sign up tho
21:49 rangi yeah but thats it
21:49 rangi then the mail just arrives
21:49 bag is a login a big barrier - (I don’t know)
21:49 Joubu Why not use the regular one with a [koha-docs] tag? That can motivate people to be involved if they see stuffs going on
21:49 LeeJ wizzyrea maybe have some sort of annotation mark in the potential documentation textarea corresponding to a bug attachment of screenshots?
21:49 cait #link https://lists.koha-community.o[…]istinfo/koha-docs koha-docs mailing list - send us things for the manual!
21:49 cait LeeJ: the area is very small, maybe easier to just write a comment and set the keyword
21:49 wizzyrea my honest opinion is that bugzilla isn't the place for that
21:49 cait or sent an email to the koha-docs
21:49 rangi hell if people just put a letter in an envelope and mailed it to me
21:49 wizzyrea it's not the best tool.
21:50 rangi it would be better than now
21:50 cait +1
21:50 rangi but i think the ml is good, because lots of people can see it
21:50 LeeJ just throwing out ideas :)
21:50 rangi we can certainly use the release notes from bugzilla too
21:50 cait I think we need to built this up - we will happily take any submissions and help people who want to help
21:50 rangi teo
21:50 rangi yep even
21:50 rangi ill take it by carrier pigeon if need be :)
21:51 indradg how about filing a linked documentation bug to every new feature / enhancement? The QA tool can check for existence linked doc bug for enh etc? The doc team / volunteers can track the open doc bugs and expand on the dev notes with screenshots and such?
21:51 z0k joined #koha
21:51 rangi yes thats the documentation bird
21:52 rangi indradg: that would be good, ideally, but also just random pastes, etc are fine too, what we are lacking is content, not process :)
21:52 bag yes content is the key
21:52 cait it's also a little easier for now to just add the keyword to the bug
21:53 cait less work for the person going through those atm
21:53 rangi if suddenly we get so much, that we need to implement stricter process, we can deal with that, i will love that to happen, but for now, however people want to submit changes is great
21:53 cait but we might get to a more refined process once the ball is rolling
21:53 rangi yes, what she said
21:53 rangi :)
21:53 bag what is the current content rate - 2~3 a week?
21:53 rangi a month
21:54 bag wow
21:54 cait yep, we got room to improve ;)
21:54 rangi without LeeJ, jzairo, cait, and kelly .. its almost zero
21:54 Freddy_Enrique holy.....
21:54 bag That’s probably an important data point to be included as an #note or whateever in the meeting notes
21:54 cait to give some examples
21:54 cait we are looking for people to write:
21:54 cait - patron clubs
21:55 cait - advanced cataloguing editor (rancor)
21:55 jzairo I can get patrons clubs in there
21:55 cait - housebound
21:55 jzairo and an update for rancor
21:55 cait :)
21:55 LeeJ jzairo++
21:55 cait just to give examples for big stuff that is missing
21:55 cait and being missed!
21:56 bag awesome jzairo - we need to recruit others to help submit ;)
21:56 bag probably a good thing to bring to the kohaus meetings jzairo
21:56 cait Bywater has some great tutorials (love them) - a lot of that would make good manual content
21:56 atheia Ooh housebound has no documentation?
21:56 LeeJ cait: maybe a good starting point would be just to compile a list in the to-do of just the titles of missing entries?
21:56 atheia I should be able to get a draft for that…
21:56 cait atheia: developer missed to write it up ;)
21:56 Joubu vi misc/cronjobs/
21:56 atheia indeed *blush*
21:56 Joubu oops, sorry
21:56 TGoat georgewilliams and CrispyBran are here jzairo
21:56 bag and TGoat ^^
21:57 rangi heh, multitasking Joubu
21:57 Joubu (wt is that??)
21:57 cait LeeJ: yep - I think release notes woudl be good starting point, check enh listed there
21:57 cait #action atheia to write something about housebound
21:57 bag atheia++   you’re all good dood
21:57 rangi with the tool alexbuckley_ is working on, it would be great to link the bits straight to the manual too
21:57 cait jzairo: do you really want to take on both? or start with patron clubs? :)
21:57 CrispyBran ???
21:57 rangi (the list of heres what changed in your upgrade too)
21:57 rangi tool even
21:58 jzairo I have been working with kidclamp on rancor
21:58 rangi cool
21:58 jzairo and khall talked  to me about patron clubs
21:58 jzairo so I can try and tackle both of those
21:58 cait #action jzairo to take on patron clubs and advanced cataloguing
21:59 TGoat jzairo++
21:59 cait cool :)
21:59 cait i am sure there will be more on the list to pick soon!
22:00 cait i'd like to add another topic to talk about translation, if that's ok?
22:00 BobB ok
22:00 cait #topic Translation
22:00 Topic for #koha is now Translation (Meeting topic: Documentation IRC Meeting 31 August)
22:00 Joubu yes! :)
22:00 cait sorry you had to wait so long Joubu :)
22:00 barton #link https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]n%20Documentation
22:00 TGoat cheer up Joubu :D
22:00 cait barton: coudl you add in  Keyword = Manual? that would be awesome
22:01 cait hm not sure you can do or
22:01 Joubu barton: does not work
22:01 cait so translation
22:01 wahanui so translation is working now too?
22:01 cait with DocBook the translation was done using a po file
22:01 bgkriegel Hi, I was working on this a bit
22:01 barton Joubu: I think I need to make it public.
22:01 cait Sonia noted on the list that she would really like to add translated screenshots too
22:02 bgkriegel to translate you need to generate po files, and then translate them
22:02 barton cait: Keyword = Manual => Zarro Boogs found.
22:02 bgkriegel I need to install a tool, sphinx-intl
22:02 cait barton: hm can't be - I will try and take a look later
22:03 bgkriegel for example: make gettext; sphinx-intl update --language=fr; translate po in source/locale/fr/LC_MESSAGES/; make -e SPHINXOPTS="-D language='fr'" html
22:04 bgkriegel i used old translations, with a bit of scripting to fix things
22:04 bgkriegel here you can see the result:
22:04 francharb which version are you working on @bgkriegel?
22:04 bgkriegel those are old languages
22:04 francharb ok
22:04 francharb 16.11
22:04 bgkriegel francharb: not the last one
22:05 bgkriegel but it's doable
22:05 francharb I think Sonia was also aksing how to get the manual files for 17.05
22:05 tajoli joined #koha
22:05 cait with all the changes coming in, i am not sure when it will make sense to start translating
22:05 bgkriegel each language adds 2~3 Mb of space, perhaps we could add the files to the repo
22:05 bgkriegel po files
22:05 wahanui po files are outdated
22:05 cait do the translations carry over if no changes?
22:05 francharb It should be
22:06 atheia I'm afraid I have to clock off — sorry for leaving mid-meeting. Au revoir!
22:06 francharb the same way translation works for the interface
22:06 bgkriegel yeap
22:06 francharb we don't stop translation for the interface because of new features...
22:07 francharb I guess it's doable having new material for the manuel and translating at the same time
22:07 LeeJ I too have to head out..I'm available by email if anyone needs to reach me :)
22:07 bgkriegel I added those po files on translation server: http://translate.koha-communit[…]projects/man1611/
22:07 cait bgkriegel++
22:07 francharb thanks @<bgkriegel>
22:08 cait so what's the next step? i think the first Sphinx manual we have is 17.05 - right rangi?
22:08 francharb Question : how often should the manual po files be updated ?
22:08 bgkriegel but I need to do the same job for 17.05
22:08 tajoli #info Zeno Tajoli, CINECA, Italy
22:08 bgkriegel 16.11 use sphinx
22:09 cait ah, i htink we just didn't link it then
22:10 cait #info bgkriegel is working on creating po files for the new manuals
22:10 cait about the screenshots - I told Sonia it should be possible
22:10 bgkriegel The result is not good for arabic, perhaps I need to research a bit more how to do it for RTL languages
22:10 cait maybe sending the fiels with the same file names?
22:11 cait #info still some issues with Arabic (RTL languages)
22:11 Joubu so basically, what can we say to Sonia?
22:12 Joubu When will she be able to translate the manual in French?
22:12 francharb Is it planned to have this page generated automaticly every day, every week?
22:12 Joubu bgkriegel: (Hi!!) What need to be done to be ready? Do you need help?
22:12 francharb So we can work on the manual translation and see the results ?
22:12 bgkriegel yeap, will do it
22:12 cait i didn't know about that page!
22:13 bgkriegel ( Hi Joubu:)! )
22:13 francharb For now, we can't control the the translation easily
22:13 cait #link translated manuals overview page
22:13 francharb @cait, I discovered it recently as well
22:13 huginn francharb: I'll give you the answer just as soon as RDA is ready
22:13 francharb I love you huginn
22:14 cait ok, moving on? :)
22:15 cait #topic Getting more people involved
22:15 Topic for #koha is now Getting more people involved (Meeting topic: Documentation IRC Meeting 31 August)
22:15 cait actually we talked a bit about this
22:15 tajoli About ?
22:15 cait please if you run across someone who you think would want to help, tell them :)
22:15 cait or if someone has a great documentation they could share
22:15 Joubu not sure I understood, maybe I missed something, will reread
22:15 tajoli There are missing link
22:15 tajoli links
22:16 caboose joined #koha
22:16 cait ok, before we close
22:16 cait any questions left open? things people want to add?
22:16 tajoli Manuals in french and italian are not linked
22:17 bgkriegel tajoli: not generated yet
22:17 bgkriegel will do later
22:17 cait #topic Set date of next meeting
22:17 Topic for #koha is now Set date of next meeting (Meeting topic: Documentation IRC Meeting 31 August)
22:17 cait is there interest in holding another meeting, maybe in a month?
22:18 jzairo yes cait
22:18 BobB i think we should, for sure
22:18 wizzyrea someone please let me know when the manual links on the website need to be added for italian and french
22:18 georgewilliams yes
22:19 cait september 6th?
22:19 wizzyrea october you mean?
22:19 BobB that's next week cait
22:19 cait #info Let wizzyrea know when links need to be added to manuals on
22:19 cait just can't read a calendar
22:19 wizzyrea :)
22:19 georgewilliams do you mean october 6?
22:19 cait 29th i think
22:19 cait was what i meant :)
22:19 cait last week of the next month
22:20 BobB not Friday please - it becomes Saturday here
22:20 cait i was aiming for thursday
22:20 cait it's too late for me :)
22:20 cait 28th
22:20 cait same time?
22:21 BobB same time works for me :)
22:21 georgewilliams same time is good here
22:21 clintD 28th Sept?
22:21 francharb thanks for the meeting. hope i can make it for the next one! anydate should work for me
22:21 francharb bye
22:21 jzairo good for me
22:21 cait yes clintD
22:21 tajoli About links to italian  manuals: I think could be added as soon as possibile. 3.20, 3.22 adnd 16.05 are 100% translated
22:21 cait #agreed Next meeting will be on 28th September, 22 UTC
22:22 cait #endmeeting
22:22 Topic for #koha is now Welcome to the #koha IRC chat | Code of conduct -[…]/code-of-conduct/ | Please use for pastes | Installation guide for Koha is | kanban is[…]rm-1711/wiki/home
22:22 huginn Meeting ended Thu Aug 31 22:22:06 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)
22:22 huginn Minutes:        http://meetings.koha-community[…]-08-31-21.02.html
22:22 huginn Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community[…]7-08-31-21.02.txt
22:22 huginn Log:            http://meetings.koha-community[…]31-21.02.log.html
22:22 cait thanks to all!
22:22 jzairo cait++
22:22 jzairo thank you cait!
22:22 irma cait+++
22:22 BobB thank you cait, awesome job again
22:22 georgewilliams thanks
22:22 kholt cait++
22:22 tajoli thanks
22:22 Joubu cait++ so... for the translation? :D
22:22 georgewilliams left #koha
22:22 cait Joubu: I lay it in the trustworthy hands of bgkriegel :)
22:23 bgkriegel cait++ :)
22:23 cait and give the editing a try... it can be fun :)
22:24 clintD thanks cait. lots to learn
22:24 Kafilini thanks
22:24 cait come and find me here if you get stuck - will help
22:24 cait and fixing a typo just for trying it out is perfectly fine :)
22:24 clintD will do
22:25 tajoli Wizzyrea: I ask to add also 3.20 link. It is still used in Italy
22:25 wizzyrea do you have the link?
22:25 Joubu should not...
22:26 wizzyrea yeah, you should not do that. :/
22:26 wizzyrea actually
22:26 wizzyrea now I'm thinking about it
22:26 wizzyrea we only put the manual links on there for supported versions.
22:26 bgkriegel Ok, need to go, bye all :)
22:27 wizzyrea (and there may be some curation needed going backwards to support that)
22:27 tajoli 3.20: http://translate.koha-communit[…]ual/3.20/it/html/
22:27 tajoli 3.22: http://translate.koha-communit[…]ual/3.22/it/html/
22:27 wizzyrea I will make a new page for unsupported versions.
22:28 tajoli 16.05: http://translate.koha-communit[…]al/16.05/it/html/
22:29 tajoli Ok Wizzyrea.
22:29 wahanui wizzyrea is here to help. And sometimes hinder. But mostly help.
22:34 caboose joined #koha
22:36 wizzyrea tajoli is that better[…]pported-versions/
22:37 wizzyrea it certainly makes the documentation page cleaner.
22:37 wizzyrea
22:38 tajoli I also think it's a good idea
22:41 tajoli # quit
22:42 tajoli left #koha
22:53 mao_ joined #koha
23:03 cait1 joined #koha
23:09 caboose joined #koha
23:15 caboose joined #koha
23:34 papa joined #koha

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