IRC log for #koha, 2014-05-10

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
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14:34 tcohen morning
14:35 cait morning tcohen
14:44 tcohen how is your weekend cait?
14:49 cait busy :)
14:49 cait travelling tomorrow and still lots to do
14:49 cait and yours?
14:49 wahanui i heard yours was better actually
14:53 WNickC Hi all
14:53 WNickC cait, can I ask a question about bug 10391
14:53 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=10391 major, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , specify due date remaining even if not selected
14:59 cait sure?
14:59 WNickC Just wondering if the clear button should clear date when 'remember for session' is checked
15:00 WNickC currently you have to clear and then checkout a book to keep the date from reappearing
15:00 WNickC I didn't know if that was bug or feature
15:06 cait hm
15:06 cait and clear and unchecking the checkbox won't do it?
15:09 WNickC it will clear on the current screen, but if I load a new patron the date and box are filled again and I have to press clear and then checkout
15:10 WNickC so instead of setting it, using it for all patrons I need, then pressing clear
15:10 WNickC I have to set it, use it for all patrons needed, load th enext patron, clear, and checkout a book
15:16 cait i am not sure
15:16 cait i think it might not directly be a bug, but it sounds like an ergonomic issue
15:23 WNickC okay, I will add a comment to the bug, it's not a huge issue for us, but it didn't feel quite like expected behaviour
15:23 WNickC thanks
16:07 markvandenborre what port does the user interface (not the admin interface) for koha normally listen on?
16:08 markvandenborre (I'm using the deb packages as provided at
16:08 markvandenborre )
16:14 markvandenborre I want to browse the catalog
16:14 markvandenborre I can see from zebra reindexing that there are a pile of records
16:14 markvandenborre but I get no search results at all
16:14 cait the opac normally is on 80
16:16 markvandenborre maybe it got confused because there is a web server already running there...
16:16 cait you need to deactivate the default site
16:17 markvandenborre yup, will do
16:17 markvandenborre btw, still trying to get catalog search to work
16:17 markvandenborre looks suspicious to me
16:17 markvandenborre it looks as if it is trying to index multiple times after an error the first time
16:18 markvandenborre and that that is the reason search is not working
16:18 markvandenborre any hints on debugging this on a lower level?
16:22 markvandenborre cait: thx, the user interface works perfectly now
16:22 markvandenborre well, except that I can't see anything in the catalog, and no search
16:29 cait it looks like you have a bad record
16:29 cait are you using unimarc or marc21?
16:35 cait markvandenborre?
16:35 wahanui well, markvandenborre is looking into a library system for a music academy
16:37 markvandenborre cait: unimarc
16:37 markvandenborre and this one is strange too
16:37 markvandenborre
16:38 cait that feature is no really been maintained
16:38 markvandenborre I seem to create a table of records to be browsed
16:38 cait or hasn't been in a longer while
16:38 cait i ma not sure how it works
16:38 cait it's an extra feature
16:38 markvandenborre I want to see something in my catalog, quite desperately so even
16:38 markvandenborre I can search it perfectly fine using the
16:39 markvandenborre cataloging search in the administrative interface
16:39 markvandenborre but not at all using the normal searc
16:39 markvandenborre h
16:39 markvandenborre (also as an administrative user)
16:40 markvandenborre and I cannot even browse the catalog in any way it seems
16:40 cait hm the cataoguing search is something different
16:40 cait how did you create your records?
16:40 markvandenborre staged marc import
16:40 wahanui staged marc import is a good one to check
16:40 cait ok
16:40 cait did you complete the upload and the second step
16:40 cait ?
16:40 markvandenborre I think so, yesx
16:41 cait when you go to tools - manage staged import
16:41 cait what status does your import batch show there?
16:41 markvandenborre imported, 2702 records
16:41 markvandenborre (for the latest batch)
16:41 cait ok, imported is ok
16:42 cait how did you install koha?
16:42 markvandenborre debian squeeze packages on debian wheezy
16:42 markvandenborre (there were no wheezy packages available yet)
16:44 markvandenborre maybe I made some fundamental thinko
16:45 markvandenborre about the rather idiosyncratic way (no offense at all!!!) library systems might be layered
16:45 jcamins markvandenborre: it sounds like you still have MARC21 records in your UNIMARC database.
16:45 jcamins View one of the records from the Staged MARC Records screen, and paste the MARC into
16:46 markvandenborre jcamins: you make me realise that the problem _might_ be
16:47 markvandenborre that I couldn't properly delete all "dirty" records from the unimarc database
16:47 jcamins How many records should you have?
16:47 markvandenborre I have 2 copies of the same dataset
16:47 markvandenborre one polluted one
16:47 markvandenborre and a cleanly unimarc one
16:48 markvandenborre is there a way to drop all of them and reimport?
16:49 jcamins Yeah, there's a faq on that somewhere.
16:49 jcamins faq?
16:49 wahanui faq is found at
16:49 jcamins Wait, no, appendix to the manual.
16:49 jcamins Oh, wait, yeah, FAQ.
16:49 jcamins Under Installing/Upgrading.
16:51 jcamins Okay, better go grocery shopping before my phone call.
16:51 jcamins Good luck.
16:52 markvandenborre hm, something is wrong with that faq it seems, but thx anyway!
16:52 markvandenborre (a lot)
16:52 jcamins Use DELETE FROM, not TRUNCATE.
16:52 * cait nods
16:52 jcamins You have a newer version of MySQL.
16:53 jcamins DELETE FROM is slower, but works on all versions of MySQL/MariaDB.
16:53 markvandenborre it mentions foreign key constraints
16:53 jcamins Anyway, I have two hours to go grocery shopping and get back on weekend trains, so good luck.
16:53 markvandenborre ah, thx
16:54 markvandenborre good luck!
16:54 markvandenborre if you're on uk trains, you will need it!
16:58 * markvandenborre is reading up about authority versus bibliographic records
17:02 markvandenborre if I understand this correctly, the authority record is a "parent" kind of record
17:02 cait hm not really
17:02 markvandenborre with the bibliographic record describing more a kind of a "copy" of a book?
17:02 cait well.. normally if we talk about children/parents i woudl tink of sth else
17:03 cait authority records are used to control terms
17:03 markvandenborre ok, but since we are talking one physical library with only one copy of any book in it ever
17:03 cait like person
17:03 cait s
17:03 cait you can create a authority record for ... a person
17:03 markvandenborre wikipedia about this?
17:03 cait and then it can include all different name variations
17:03 cait like pseudonyms
17:04 cait and that can be used to make seraching for a person more useful
17:04 cait authorities are optional
17:04 cait bilbiographic records and items is probably what you think about
17:04 markvandenborre ok, so I need this to bibliographic records
17:05 cait the bibliographic record is the general description, the item is what your library has... with its specifics
17:05 cait call number, barcode, opac notes... whatever
17:05 cait one bibliographic record can have n items
17:06 markvandenborre ok, so now we're here:
17:06 markvandenborre 2702 records seem to have been imported fine
17:06 markvandenborre well, staged for import
17:07 cait now you need to import them
17:07 cait into the catalog
17:08 markvandenborre did that,
17:08 markvandenborre now I guess I have to explicitly make zebra index the thing
17:09 cait no ou shouldn't have to
17:09 cait it should happen sometime in the next 5 minutes
17:09 cait if your koha is set up correctly
17:10 markvandenborre I did it explicitly, to get some feedback without going into /var/log
17:10 markvandenborre
17:10 markvandenborre is what I got
17:10 markvandenborre something seems to be wrong somewhere there...
17:11 cait yeah that does look like a problem with your records :(
17:11 cait i am no unimarc expert
17:11 cait you might want to come back during the week
17:12 markvandenborre ok, so the best thing to do would probably use marc21?
17:12 markvandenborre almost everyone here seems to be using that...
17:13 markvandenborre could that be useful?
17:14 markvandenborre I seem to be using a rather exotic setup compared to other people in this channel, and this is only a virtual machine that should be a piece of cake to rebuild
17:15 markvandenborre and get working
17:16 cait i am not sure why you picked unimarc in the first place
17:16 cait best is to use what the libraries in your area are using
17:18 markvandenborre that's why I picked unimarc in the first place
17:18 markvandenborre research seems to suggest that most of continental Europe uses that
17:18 markvandenborre but it's really for such a small local library
17:19 cait hm that's not true
17:19 cait germany for example never used unimarc and switched to marc21
17:19 markvandenborre Flanders, Belgium
17:19 cait france and spain use unimarc i think, not sur eabout other countries
17:19 markvandenborre Dutch speaking northern 55% of Belgium
17:21 cait hm not sure about there
17:21 markvandenborre just looked it up
17:21 markvandenborre marc21
17:22 markvandenborre[…]-Vlacc/Open_Vlacc (in Dutch)
17:22 cait but you will have to redo your records
17:22 cait becauase the fields are all different
17:22 markvandenborre redoing the mappings you mean, indeed
17:23 markvandenborre there's only six or seven fields, so that's manageable
17:23 cait and you need to recreate your instance for marc21 i think
17:23 cait it would be easiest
17:23 markvandenborre ah, right, I could keep the virtual machine and the koha installation
17:24 markvandenborre and just throw out the instance and create a new one you mean
17:24 cait yeah and make sure it's configured to marc21
17:25 markvandenborre cool, should save me some time
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18:09 WNickC so, some faqs mention git send-email, but git is not understanding that command, I assume I am missing something obvious
18:19 WNickC Oh, maybe i shoudl install git-email
18:19 WNickC smh
18:20 * markvandenborre is looking for a marc21 code where I could put the instrument(s) for a piece of sheet music
18:20 markvandenborre unimarc has something like that, but it seems marc21 has not
18:20 cait WNickC: yep - you'd need to install it separately
18:20 cait but sending hte email is no longer strictly required
18:20 markvandenborre unless I am missing something here
18:20 cait if you attach your patches to the bug that's ok
18:20 gmcharlt markvandenborre: the 382
18:21 * cait waves at gmcharlt
18:21 gmcharlt markvandenborre:
18:21 gmcharlt hi cait
18:22 markvandenborre thx gmcharlt
18:25 markvandenborre here's another special one that is hard to look for
18:26 markvandenborre the library had its own utterly inconsistent and inconsistently applied numbering system for sheet music
18:26 markvandenborre where should I dump that info?
18:26 markvandenborre I guess into some kind of note in the 500 range, but maybe there's better options?
18:26 WNickC if I submit a ptach should I also take the bug?
18:27 markvandenborre (I already need to dump some other things there)
18:27 cait WNickC: if you fix it yep assign it to yourself
18:28 * markvandenborre is looking, but nog finding anything useful immediately, especially as he needs to abuse "general notes" for something else
18:29 WNickC done, terrifying, now I'll go read mor ewiki so I ask less silly questions
18:35 * markvandenborre is looking at and happy to have found 521 2 a
18:35 markvandenborre any idea how to feed that to
18:35 markvandenborre 521_2_a?
18:35 markvandenborre or just 521_a?
18:38 markvandenborre ok, that was a stupid question of mine, sorry
18:38 markvandenborre I'll just experiment
18:41 jcamins I'm not sure csvtomarc does indicators.
18:44 markvandenborre it seems it doesn't, no harm done
18:45 markvandenborre I've been looking really hard now for a place to dump our inconsistent existing (sometimes non-existing) per-book code
18:45 markvandenborre any suggestions about that?
18:45 jcamins You might consider item.
18:45 jcamins *an item
18:45 jcamins Or a 001.
18:45 * markvandenborre looks at 001 (item would further complicate things it seems)
18:46 jcamins Or a 090.
18:46 markvandenborre err, 0xx only starts with 010?
18:46 jcamins Or 084.
18:46 jcamins Right, because 001 is 00x.
18:47 jcamins Yes, there is a reason, no you don't want to know it.
18:47 markvandenborre :-)
18:48 markvandenborre 090n seems the most free form I can imagine
18:48 markvandenborre thx for the hint
18:54 * markvandenborre hapy
18:54 markvandenborre happy even
18:54 markvandenborre things are working as they should
18:54 markvandenborre thank you all!
18:57 markvandenborre especially to cait, jcamins, talljoy and gmcharlt (hope I'm not forgetting anyone)
18:57 markvandenborre this will really make a difference for a cash strapped small music academy
19:01 markvandenborre a rather off topic question:
19:01 markvandenborre does anyone know if has a marc21 metadata set?
19:02 markvandenborre it would be _so_ incredibly cool if we could integrate that into the school library
19:07 * markvandenborre is so stupid... feeding himself feature requests...
19:19 cait I'd recommend one step after the other ;)
19:21 markvandenborre :-)
19:22 markvandenborre in any case, I'm really happy about this step
19:22 markvandenborre and my colleagues will be too
19:22 markvandenborre if you think what they have to suffer now...
19:23 markvandenborre 4 different iTunes versions without any central metadata management
19:23 markvandenborre pdf documents stored on a file server that has been dying since 2010
19:23 markvandenborre on many machines the file server authentication is taking over a minute for some reason
19:24 markvandenborre that and more...
19:24 markvandenborre and in a bit over a week, they get a new server, with a working sheet music repository that they can reliably search
19:31 cait :)
19:37 cait @wunder cologne
19:37 huginn cait: Error: No such location could be found.
19:37 cait @wunder Köln
19:37 huginn cait: Error: No such location could be found.
19:37 cait hm
19:37 cait @wunder Köln, Germany
19:37 huginn cait: Error: No such location could be found.
19:42 markvandenborre @wunder Koeln, Deutschland
19:42 huginn markvandenborre: Error: No such location could be found.
19:42 markvandenborre cait: pity, no cigar
19:43 cait @wunder Konstanz
19:43 huginn cait: The current temperature in Taegerwilen, Taegerwilen, Germany is 16.4°C (9:40 PM CEST on May 10, 2014). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 62%. Dew Point: 9.0°C. Pressure: 29.86 in 1011 hPa (Steady).
19:43 cait silly bot :)
19:43 * markvandenborre grins
19:43 markvandenborre I am looking for info on cover images now
19:43 markvandenborre I (will) have a pile of digital documents in 856u
19:44 markvandenborre and for most sheet music, no ISMN yet
19:44 cait i think most cover services work only with isbn :( but maybe you are lucky
19:44 * markvandenborre is naively hoping that there is a way for koha to pull the first page from that
19:45 markvandenborre 856u pdf -> first page as cover image
19:45 cait ah no
19:45 markvandenborre rendered as png in browser
19:45 cait koha won't do that
19:45 cait you'd have to create that yourself as a local cover image
19:45 markvandenborre ok
19:45 cait koha will only show a link to it
19:46 markvandenborre unless it can be pulled from an ISMN/ISBN service like librarything/amazon/...?
19:46 markvandenborre (the cover image)
19:46 cait yeah currently, oyu can also upload local cover images
19:46 cait but koha can't do magic from the urls :)
19:46 markvandenborre ok
19:47 markvandenborre can the local cover image also be a url?
19:47 * markvandenborre is looking at cover image docs
19:47 markvandenborre for cover image docs
19:48 cait look at the system prferences for catalog enrichment
19:48 cait I think there is a way t omake an image link in 856 display the image
19:48 cait and maybe a sys ref search for 856
19:50 markvandenborre cait: won't work, we really need the pdf to be 856u...
19:50 cait 856 is repeatable
19:51 cait you can have multiple links in every record
19:52 markvandenborre ah, cool
19:54 markvandenborre I'm thinking about it should be trivial to write a small apache rule
19:54 markvandenborre that makes a request for the pdf and generates a cover image on the fly
19:55 markvandenborre would grab the pdf
19:56 markvandenborre and (or something similar) would pull the first page from the pdf, turn it into a png and feed it back to the browser
19:58 markvandenborre now I need to look at the interface for editors
20:03 markvandenborre right now, I have a very limited subset of marc21 in use: code (090_n), titel (245_a), componist (100_a), instrument(382_a), graad (521_2_a), type (500_a)
20:05 markvandenborre now we do want to add basic extra metadata of course, especially ISMN/ISBN
20:05 markvandenborre but that's about it
20:05 markvandenborre (apart from 856u for pdf and cover images)
20:05 markvandenborre is there a way to dumb down the interface for adding content as much as possible?
20:07 cait yes
20:08 cait marc frameworks
20:08 wahanui marc frameworks is[…]i/MARC_frameworks
20:08 cait youcan hide all fields youdon't want to use
20:09 markvandenborre cool, thx
20:34 markvandenborre cait: I see in my notes from the last time I tackled that
20:34 markvandenborre something about a column "hidden" in the ods export
20:35 cait yes
20:35 markvandenborre where some magic values are possible
20:35 cait well kind of yes
20:35 markvandenborre it seems there is a -6, -1, 0, 5 or 7
20:35 cait what I'd do is set a field to the value you want and then look up which number that is in the ods
20:35 markvandenborre and -5 was - according to my notes- idden
20:35 cait that sounds about right
20:35 markvandenborre hidden
20:36 markvandenborre in order not to have to fiddle with it all, I think I'll copy paste it all to hidden
20:36 markvandenborre and unhide a few
20:36 markvandenborre the ones that i need
20:36 markvandenborre and see where that gets me
20:37 markvandenborre instead of manually redoing every single of 3961 fields
20:37 markvandenborre that would not be my definition of fun...
20:45 markvandenborre hm, that doesn't seem to hide everything...
20:52 cait where are you looking?
20:52 cait and I think you need to hide the field and the subfields
21:05 markvandenborre I found my way through it
21:06 markvandenborre I set the tab to -1 (ignore) for the unneeded ones, and to 0 for the relevant ones
21:06 markvandenborre and I set "hidden" to -5 for the unneeded ones and to 0 for the relevant ones
21:07 markvandenborre that did the trick
21:08 markvandenborre do you know if it will hurt anything if I change the description string for theses specific marc21 fields in my custom framework?
21:08 markvandenborre I'd like to change them to something more descriptive for our context, and to Dutch
21:12 cait no, that should not be a problem
21:31 markvandenborre is there a way to change the default framework that people adding or modifying records use?
21:31 markvandenborre or should I just copy my framework changes into the default framework and hope for the best?
21:57 markvandenborre hm, I try to add a new record to my catalog, but marc21 field 100a is locked for some reason
21:57 markvandenborre all the others work no problem
21:57 markvandenborre so I can't add the composer's name to the record
21:57 cait that's because you are supposed to create an authority record for it
21:57 cait using the plugin at the end of the field
21:58 cait you can deactivate that, check the manual - if you want to keep it more simple, but authorities can be a nice tihng
21:58 markvandenborre I figured out more or less that part, but our secretary is really really humble in the way she can interact with computers
21:59 markvandenborre and I don't want to add any layer of complexity there
21:59 markvandenborre or I will end up cleaning up the mess
21:59 markvandenborre after her
21:59 cait you can work without authorities - might create more mess tho with typos and the like :)
22:01 markvandenborre I will rely on my colleagues (users!) to iron those out
22:01 markvandenborre the comments function (it doesn't seem to be working, but I'll get to that later)
22:01 cait for example there might be all kind of different spellings for tschaikowsky (and not sure that is a valid one)
22:01 markvandenborre seems to be really nice for that
22:02 cait an authority record helps to improve search in those areas
22:02 markvandenborre doesn't zebra do a kind of fuzzy search already?
22:02 cait yeah
22:02 cait it does :)
22:02 cait but it doesn't catch them all i think
22:03 markvandenborre obviously
22:03 jcamins But it won't help if you use a spelling that isn't within one or two letters.
22:03 jcamins So Tschaikovsky and Chaikovskii definitely won't be found.
22:03 jcamins And, actually, the fuzzy search has other issues.
22:07 markvandenborre I do see the added value of that approach in many contexts, but not here...
22:13 markvandenborre I seem to find BiblioAddsAuthorities and AutoCreateAuthorities in the prefs
22:13 cait markvandenborre: it's a setting int he bilbiographic framework
22:13 cait faq?
22:13 wahanui faq is found at
22:13 cait i think there is an entry on how to do it in the faq
22:19 markvandenborre just changed the right setting, thx
22:19 markvandenborre BiblioAddsAuthorities it was
22:19 cait hm that won't deactivate it tho
22:19 cait that will add automatically i think
22:20 markvandenborre no, that would need autocreateauthorities to be on
22:21 markvandenborre as far as I understand the manual
22:21 cait ahhm
22:21 cait ok :)
22:21 markvandenborre BiblioAddsAuthorities allow
22:21 markvandenborre AutoCreateAuthorities disallow
22:21 markvandenborre and there should be none of that kind of pollution
22:24 markvandenborre thx all, and good night
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