IRC log for #koha, 2006-08-19

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:04 thd hdl: there is also the confusing verbose but pretty representation modelled after what LC has for MARCXML.
12:04 thd hdl:
12:07 hdl Is it what they already use ?
12:07 thd hdl?: I am not certain what he has in production
12:08 thd hdl: he certainly has it working on a test basis at least
12:10 thd hdl: the only significant penalty for this design is greater time required for indexing large records if authorities are added
12:10 thd hdl: that is why larger meta-records should be in a supplementary database which is not updated in real time
12:10 hdl But this can be overcome with batch updates I thinf
12:10 thd yes
12:11 thd hdl: tumer now has real time updates set for 2 minutes so that he avoids timeout problems for Zebra
12:16 thd hdl: of curse I want to do more than add authorities
12:17 thd hdl: kados suggested adding FRBR relationships
12:18 thd hdl: I want to go as far as allowing MARC 21, UNIMARC, IBERMARC, Dublin Core, ONIX, OAI, etc. to coexist in the same meta-record for the same work.
12:19 thd hdl: maybe the non-MARC one could be translated to MARC first just to make things a little easier ;)
12:19 thd s/one/ones/
12:21 thd hdl: I know that everyone will think that is crazy
12:23 hdl This IS a GREAT ideal. But need MUCH time, and I can't think who will be eager to get that stuff.
12:23 thd hdl: I still need a system which can function as a universal OPAC holding hundreds of millions of records.
12:24 thd hdl: as long as the foundation is there the scripting to support it can be built slowly over time
12:24 hdl But if we achieve this, it will be great.
12:25 thd hdl: in the Anglophone world LC already has added ONIX to MARC 21 records
12:26 thd hdl: OCLC, the worlds largest union catalogue has many many must be millions of Dubln Core records but they should if they invented and promoted them.
12:28 thd hdl: It would be great for UNIMARC and MARC 21 libraries to be able to use the alternate format when they acquire material which has never previously been translated.
12:28 thd s/translated/catalogued in the other record syntax/
12:30 thd hdl: tumer reports that Zebra Proxy has the usemarcon configuration files for using usemarcon to translate between UNIMARC and MARC21 in both directions.
12:31 thd hdl: I just want to be able to search any important type of record consistently at a very exacting level of detail without needing to do repeated searches against different databases.
12:32 thd hdl: I think that consistent searching across different record types is a very general desire.
12:34 thd hdl: it is also something that the European Digital Library addresses.
12:34 dewey okay, thd.
12:34 owen dewey: what is it?
12:34 dewey or often necessary because the user may never successfully guess the authorised heading successfully unless the user is a librarian with years of experience or otherwise especially familiar with the authorised headings needed or something that the European Digital Library addresses.
12:35 owen dewey: forget it
12:35 dewey owen: I forgot it
12:39 thd hdl: http://www.theeuropeanlibrary.[…]portal/index.html
12:39 thd hdl: takes me much longer to load now with all the new JavaScript
12:41 thd owen: is there a command for never learn it?
12:42 thd s/it/'it'/
12:42 owen I don't know
12:42 thd dewey: ignore it
12:42 dewey thd: huh?
12:44 hdl dewey : what is it ?
12:44 dewey i don't know, hdl
12:44 hdl dewey : what is FRBR ?
12:44 dewey FRBR is not a record type
13:09 thd dewey: what is FRBR?
13:09 dewey hmmm... FRBR is Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records. has the canonical report.[…]eill/frbrddb2.ppt has an easily understood presentation.[…]ject%20access.pdf has fun extensions.
13:12 hdl much more complete.
13:14 kados thd: you around?
13:14 thd yes
13:14 kados I just compiled a rule for finding Large Print using MARC
13:15 kados was wondering if you could check it
13:15 kados Large print =
13:15 kados (
13:15 kados ( ((LDR-07='a' or LDR-07='c' or LDR-07='m') and 008-23 = 'd') or
13:15 kados ((LDR-06='c' or LDR-06='d' or LDR-06='i' or LDR-06='j') and 008-29='d') or
13:15 kados ((LDR-07='s' or LDR-07='b') and 008-23='b') or
13:15 kados (LDR-06='p' and 008-23='b') ) or
13:15 kados ( ((LDR-06='e' or LDR-06='f') and 008-29='d') or
13:15 kados ((LDR-06='g' or LDR-06='k' LDR-06='o' LDR-06='r') and 008-29='d') ) or
13:15 kados ( ((LDR-07='s' or LDR-07='b') and 008-22='d') or
13:15 kados 007-01='tb')
13:15 kados the qualifier names should be fairly obvious
13:16 kados this is why MARC must die :-)
13:16 thd kados: we should be storing things in a supplementary field so that we do not need to have those rules once he supplementary fields have been filled
13:17 thd s/he/the/
13:18 thd kados: I already see that you left out some possibilities
13:18 kados thd: like what?
13:19 thd kados: there are textual field possibilities
13:19 kados oh goody :-)
13:20 thd kados: 020 $a; 300 $a; 500 $a, and maybe others
13:21 kados thd: they have 'official' values?
13:21 thd kados: if it were in 020 it would appear like 1234567890 (large print pbk.) or something like that
13:21 kados thd: or just free text?
13:22 thd kados: free text is tricky
13:22 kados well ... are they consistant?
13:22 kados ie, are there valid and invalid values?
13:23 thd kados: nothing is very consistent about bibliographic records which makes them more fun than the boring consistent records of the world.
13:23 kados :-)
13:24 thd kados: so you should certainly be trying to match anything a lazy cataloguer might have used such as lrg. prt. or whatever
13:24 kados thd: is there a list of those somewher?
13:25 kados thd: do they change from langauge to language? or are they consistant?
13:25 kados thd: AACR2 have official abreviations?
13:25 thd kados: if you inspect every MARC record in existence then you will have the list
13:25 kados hahah
13:26 kados owen: you may get a kick out of this:
13:26 thd kados: I had a grand time just getting library of congress usage of abbreviations for hardcover and paperback complete in 020
13:26 kados owen: I'm compiling a 'most wanted' list for really bad design decisions in MARC :-)
13:27 owen Good grief!
13:27 kados yea ... show that to lauren and explain why Koha 2.4 isn't ready yet :-)
13:27 thd kados: and LC was just one library with fairly god standards of consistency compared to some
13:27 kados that represents at least 4 hours of digging
13:28 thd s/god/good/
13:31 thd kados: there is no specific rule for large print in my 1978 copy of AACR.
13:32 thd s/AACR/AACR2/
13:35 kados so what exactly _is_ 'large print' ... is it a format?
13:35 thd kados: it is a type  size
13:37 thd kados: there is no reason the books themselves have to be taller although the preference in printing them is too keep the pagination the same.
13:37 kados OCLC has it listed as a 'subtype' in the 'format' category
13:38 thd kados: OCLC think as carefully as they ought to have when they designed that part of their search form.
13:38 thd kados: consider that they located some extra search possibilities they had indexed out of the way somewhere on the search form.
13:40 kados what extra search possibilities?
13:41 thd kados: that interface was written primarily for librarians to use so they did not usually worry about finding more than one format or type size when they were looking for some place to do an ILL request or copy catalogue a book n hand.
13:43 thd kados: the extra possibilities are merely the less important search restrictions which they included with less thought to their organisation at the bottom of the form.
13:45 thd kados: the top of the form is more carefully organised
13:46 thd kados: have you seen that they are now providing direct access to Open WorldCat with a simple search box at htp:// .
13:47 kados yes
13:47 thd kados: has that only been a few weeks?
13:48 thd kados: there used to be a username and password dialogue box there for using the good search form that the FirstSearch interface has.
13:49 kados thd: it's only been about a week
13:51 thd kados: screen scraping that may be better than using SOAP with Google for the same content.
13:52 kados thd: that's what I'm going to do :-)
13:54 thd kados: I thought NPL had lost many of its 000, 007, and 008 fields.  Have you been filling them from other fields contained in the records?
13:56 kados thd: yes
13:56 kados thd: they only lost 000s
13:56 kados and a few 008s
13:57 kados but it was pretty simple to reconstruct
13:58 thd kados: 008s were originally populated by script at many places form other information contained in the records when 008 was originally introduced.
13:58 thd s/places/big libraries/
14:26 thd kados: 022 $a and 024 $a should also be considered along with 020 $a for large print.
14:27 thd kados: the problem with using 02X is that you may have more than one format recorded in a repeatable field which does not apply to your item.
14:29 thd kados: your mappings look good but I am not awake enough to see very well.
14:31 thd kados: I almost have a replacement for the wiki CSS that looks like the CSS.
22:51 thd kados: are you still awake?
01:49 hdl hi
01:55 Strait hi
01:55 dewey hey, Strait
01:55 Strait good morning :)
02:02 Strait bugger
02:02 Strait z39.50 is broken :(
02:03 Strait The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/z3950/0 was not found on this server.
02:03 Strait that appears after the results have been displayed
02:04 chris ahh i think thats a bug in the npl templates
02:04 Strait yep, it is
02:04 Strait it works with default templates
02:04 chris i saw something about that, either on or the devel list
02:05 Strait i tried checking already
02:05 chris its fixed in the rel_2_2 branch of cvs
02:05 Strait do you know how to fix it?
02:06 chris its fixed in cvs .. so you could look at viewcvs on savannah that should tell you how it was fixed
02:06 chris whats the name of the tmpl?
02:06 Strait i think it's searchresult.tmpl
02:07 Strait in z3950/
02:08 chris[…]_with_tag=rel_2_2
02:08 hdl Strait: yes it is.
02:08 chris
02:08 hdl It returns 0 when no results found.
02:08 chris is where the fix was applied
02:08 hdl But not an HTML page.
02:08 hdl hi chris
02:08 chris[…].2.2.2&r1=
02:08 chris theres a diff
02:09 chris hi hdl :)
02:09 hdl how is the next Cormack ?
02:09 chris all good so far
02:09 hdl great
02:09 chris 22 weeks now .. over half way :)
02:10 Strait great, thanks a million :)
02:16 Strait works like a charm now :)
02:16 Strait i think i'll definitely have to upgrade to 1.2.2 at home
02:18 chris 1.2.2 ???
02:19 Strait version
02:19 Strait well that
02:19 chris ahh of that template
02:19 chris righto
02:21 Strait i think the guys at emilda have done a good job with z39.50
02:21 Strait it's really quite elegant
02:21 chris yeah the next versions of koha handle z3950 much better
02:21 Strait
02:22 chris now there is a perl interface to zebra (what emilda uses)
02:22 Strait although featurewise emilda is nowhere near koha of course ;)
02:22 chris its possible for us to use it also
02:23 Strait yep
02:24 Strait it think the whole consept of adding books in emilda is worth checking out
02:24 Strait i think
02:24 Strait (it's so hard to write english :D)
02:24 chris :)
02:25 chris its all quite different for koha 3.0
02:28 Strait koha 3.0 is available through cvs?
02:28 chris well it wont work
02:28 chris but yep :)
02:28 Strait ah, ok
02:54 Strait hmm, i think we're gonna need a character conversion for the z3950
02:54 Strait from iso-8859-1 to utf-8
02:54 Strait to be able to import voyager records
02:55 Strait (finnish national library uses a voyager system)
02:55 Strait (for the time being ;))
03:00 chris yep
03:01 chris its probably marc8
03:01 chris theres been tons of work done on conversion in the dev_week branch of cvs
03:01 chris and lots on the wiki
03:01 chris kados, paul and tumer know much more about it than me
03:02 chris[…]ncodingscratchpad
04:42 mohamedimran82 hello i have a problem with koha reservation
04:52 mohamedimran82 anybody on this list willing to spare time for errors in koha reservation
05:03 chris sorry mohamed, its friday night here so I wasnt watching my computer
05:03 chris whats the problem?
05:03 dewey the problem is if there is no data in the sort field zebra throws and error and does not even return the unsorted results
05:04 chris dewey: forget the problem
05:04 dewey chris: I forgot problem
05:05 mohamedimran82 thnk u very much but what about the reservation problem
05:05 mohamedimran82 i am able to issue a  book to a person inspite of somebody else already reserving it !
05:06 mohamedimran82 that too with out any warning
05:06 chris hmmm i havent seen that before
05:06 chris what version of koha, and what operating system?
05:07 mohamedimran82 koha 2.2.5 FC3
05:08 chris weird, i havent seen that problem before .. what templates?
05:08 mohamedimran82 default
05:08 chris no idea sorry
05:09 mohamedimran82 but all my reserves r logged in reservation pending list
05:09 mohamedimran82 never mind . but what about the reports
05:09 chris you should get a warning, that says its on a reserve, and do you what to issue it anyway
05:09 chris thats what happens for me
05:10 chris what report?
05:11 mohamedimran82 all my reports
05:12 mohamedimran82 for ex if i try to see borrower stats it throws up a message in error log
05:12 mohamedimran82 [Fri Aug 18 15:49:03 2006] [error] [client] DBD::mysql::st fetchrow failed: fetch() without execute() at /usr/local/koha/intranet/cgi-b​in/reports/ line 357., referer:[…]
05:12 chris and you choose so options?
05:13 chris chose some options even
05:14 chris for eg
05:14 chris click row for category
05:14 chris and column for location
05:14 chris then you should get some results
05:16 chris does that work?
05:17 mohamedimran82 yeah it worked for borrowers. thnx
05:17 mohamedimran82 but why is there problems with wild cards
05:17 chris cool, you need to choose a  column or a row
05:17 chris for all the reports
05:18 chris you dont have to choose any values, just what you want as the column or the row
05:18 chris otherwise it doesnt know how to build the table
05:19 mohamedimran82 ya it worked for a few reports.
05:20 mohamedimran82 by the way why dont u complete the documentation on the report section on kohadocs
05:20 mohamedimran82 its empty
05:20 chris cos i dont have time :)
05:21 chris if anyone wants to write it, we'd be happy
05:22 mohamedimran82 one more query
05:22 mohamedimran82 i have managed to authenticate my users from my college LDAP
05:23 mohamedimran82 now the catch. how to map those fields into koha db
05:23 mohamedimran82 when a ldap user logs in, all his personal details in opac are empty
05:24 mohamedimran82 if he is changing that, that a mail is sent to the admin to reflect that on the DB
05:24 mohamedimran82 why this redundant stuff
05:24 mohamedimran82 can we not pull up all the user details from the ldap and fill the same for each authenticated user
05:25 chris yes
05:25 chris thats an option in the ldap module
05:25 mohamedimran82 is it inside LOCAL & /LOCAL
05:26 chris i didnt write the module
05:26 chris but ill go look
05:28 chris yep it is
05:28 mohamedimran82 why this is necessary is that when we take reports we see lots of NULL fields because values are not pulled up from LDAP
05:28 chris yes you will need to edit it
05:29 chris from   my %borrower;
05:29 chris on
05:29 chris to match you LDAP structure
05:36 mohamedimran82 i am working on it
05:40 mohamedimran82 my ldap structure says that the display name is gecos
05:41 mohamedimran82 $borrower{firstname} = $memberhash{gecos}; # MANDATORY FIELD
05:41 mohamedimran82 i did this. Is this right?
05:41 chris i dont know sorry
05:42 chris i havent done any work at all on LDAP and Koha
05:43 mohamedimran82 anyways thnx a ton for ur comments on reports
05:44 chris no problem
05:44 chris ok, bedtime for me
05:44 chris good luck :)
05:44 mohamedimran82 sweet dreams
08:04 hdl toins: bonjour
08:04 toins salut hdl
08:05 toins hdl, comment ca va ?
09:23 thd kados: are you there?
09:23 kados thd: yes
09:24 thd kados: I just you a revised adaptation of the CSS for the wiki.
09:25 thd kados: I am anxious to have a better CSS for the wiki so that I can have confidence in the presentation of wiki content.
09:27 kados ok, I'll try to take care of that asap
09:29 thd kados: i will be much happier about creating wiki content if is more readable and also looks better.
09:54 owen Hi rychi
09:55 rychi hi owen.  I was just looking for you.
09:55 rychi I have a question re: npl templates
09:55 owen Shoot
09:55 rychi the title and other links on opac-searchresults is url-encoded.
09:56 rychi this gives me %20's in my searchresults.
09:56 rychi how should this work?
09:56 owen Are you looking at the latest CVS?
09:56 rychi yes
09:57 rychi rel_2_2
09:57 owen There was recently a change in the default template in that regard, which I copied over
09:57 owen I'll check to see what the explanation was
10:00 owen thd: regarding the wiki, did you try applying a user stylesheet, or turning CSS off?
10:01 thd owen: yes, I tested with a user stylesheet
10:03 thd owen: I could not see what I was doing earlier well because I was not using the best menu option for the Firefox Web Developer plugin.
10:05 owen rychi: you're talking about the ESCAPE="URL"
10:05 owen ?
10:05 thd owen: certainly a user stylesheet would fix the wiki for me, however, I want to fix the wiki for anyone I would direct to it.
10:06 rychi owen, right.
10:06 owen thd: I think most people are fine with it
10:06 owen Yeah, rychi, it's the same in the default template. What's the problem it's causing for you?
10:06 thd owen: I realise that but that is most people do not put much content into it.
10:07 rychi owen: i think the escape="url" should be in the <a> tag, but not in the link text?
10:07 rychi owen: the default templates work for me.
10:07 thd owen: if you start to put some significant content into the wiki, the problems become evident.
10:08 thd owen: existing content is simple outlines which are undemanding of the CSS.
10:10 rychi owen: ah, I see in the default tmpl, the escape param is only in the <a> tag.
10:11 thd owen: If you try adding paragraphs, bibliographies with hyperlinks, HTML content, etc. to wiki content you should see problems for readability and poor appearance.
10:11 owen I see, rychi. I'll change it.

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