IRC log for #koha, 2006-07-01

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:03 slef ok np
12:06 kados mailman will do it automatically
12:24 slef no it won't, as it's bouncing to the From not the envelope
12:24 slef (buggy RFC-ignorant mailserver)
12:30 kados ahh
13:19 owen Hi GrahamDoel
13:19 GrahamDoel Hi owen
13:20 GrahamDoel I have a fresh install of koha and am strugglind with the z39.5 searches, do you think you might be able to point me in the right direction
13:20 GrahamDoel ?
13:20 owen I can try
13:20 GrahamDoel thanks
13:21 owen What are the symptoms of your problem? Are the searches not returning any results?
13:22 thd kados: are you back?
13:22 GrahamDoel when I do an add biblio enter the isbn and click the z3950 search it just returns z3950 Still ?? requests to go
13:22 kados thd: yep
13:22 GrahamDoel I have run the start daemon script, but don't know how to check
13:23 thd /msg kados kados:  I am still finishing the Afognak job
13:23 kados :-)
13:23 owen Hmmm... that's one I /don't/ know.
13:24 owen kados: can you assume the daemon is running properly if the script doesn't generate any errors?
13:24 kados GrahamDoel: check the logs
13:24 kados you need to see what the log says to be sure
13:24 GrahamDoel ok... could you remind me where they are?
13:25 kados GrahamDoel: whereever you specified in the z3950-daemon-options file
13:25 GrahamDoel ok, thanks... I'll look now
13:27 owen GrahamDoel: you filled in a search term, right? An ISBN or title?
13:28 GrahamDoel yes, I found that on a list somewhere and did check that I had done.
13:32 GrahamDoel ahh.. I see.  No connection at...
13:42 thd kados: there is a bug in the 008 plugin
13:42 kados thd: do tell
13:45 thd kados: if the first 6 positions for record creation date are blank then using the plugin does not set them automatically but eliminates the first six positions moving everything over by 6 positions
13:45 thd kados: is that clear?
13:45 kados yes
13:46 kados should be a simple fix
13:46 thd kados: maybe this happens for the 008 plugin under other conditions but this was the condition where I noticed it.
13:51 GrahamDoel thank you kados and owen,  problem solved.  Thanks again
13:55 kados thd: could you file a bug in bugzilla ... mark it as 'blocker' since it prevents creation of valid MARC21 records
13:56 thd kados: is that what blocker means?
13:56 kados blocker means that you can't release the software until it's fixed
13:57 kados IMO anything that prevents us from creating valid MARC21 is a blocker  :-)
13:57 thd kados: you do not have to use the plugin and so there is a workaround
13:58 thd kados: editing fixed fields without some extra aid is crazy though
13:58 kados yep
14:59 thd kados: bug filed but I have not been able to assign it to you
15:01 thd kados: when I have tried assigning or CC a bug to you it tells me that is not a recognised email address for that purpose.
15:03 thd kados: how can I assign a bug to you
15:03 thd ?
15:10 kados thd: I'm here
15:10 kados thd: is the right address I think
15:10 thd ahh
15:11 thd kados: I remembered an important question
15:11 kados thd: I'm all ears :-)
15:12 thd kados: we are using MARC instead of MARC-XML in Zebra for performance reasons?
15:12 kados not quite
15:12 kados we are using binary MARC for the initial import
15:12 kados and MARCXML after that
15:12 kados internally it's stored in Zebra's internal format
15:13 thd kados: importation is much slower if it were in XML?
15:15 kados yes
15:15 kados about 1000 times slower :-)
15:16 thd kados: does the record editor add a new record in MARC-XML or MARC?
15:17 thd kados: does the record editor also submit the resulting record from edits int the same format?
15:19 thd kados: can we break the MARC record size limit without problem using MARC-XML once the record has been added or newly created?
15:19 kados I think so
15:19 kados though I haven't tested
15:20 thd kados: what format does the record editor save to the database for Zebra?
15:23 thd kados: is importation 1000 times slower if the records have already been converted to UTF-8?
15:23 kados yes
15:23 thd kados: what format does the record editor save to the database for Zebra?
15:24 kados there is code to do both
15:24 kados but currently, I'm using xml
15:25 thd kados: is there any performance difference for Zebra presenting one format or other for search results?
15:26 kados not that I know if
15:26 kados of course, XML is much more verbose :-)
15:26 kados a 10K MARC21 file could easily be 100K in MARCXML
15:27 thd kados: yet the browser only has to manage the browser view
15:29 thd kados: have you bookmarked MARC::Record relative to MARC::File::XML?
15:30 kados bookmarked?
15:31 thd s/bookmarked/benchmarked add field, and other transformations/
15:33 thd kados: my spell checker sometimes gives my strange transformations that I do not always catch
15:33 thd s/my/me/
15:35 kados I haven't benchmarked anything yet
15:35 kados officially :-)
15:38 thd kados: I guess that a benchmark is not needed in instances when you have a 1000 times difference.  No one cares if it is 998 or 1002 times too long for that particular case.
15:44 kados :-)
17:15 thd kados: are you still there?
21:13 russ dewey seen thd?
21:13 dewey thd was last seen on #koha 3 hours, 57 minutes and 37 seconds ago, saying: kados: are you still there? [Fri Jun 30 10:15:30 2006]
21:13 russ thd are you about?
21:13 thd yes russ
21:15 russ hiya
21:15 russ i have a marc question for you if you have a minute
21:15 thd yes
21:15 russ the 300 b subfield, is that repeatable?
21:16 russ or should it be repeatable?
21:16 thd yes, I believe
21:18 thd russ: apparently, I was wrong
21:19 thd russ: 300 is repeatable even 300 $a is repeatable and $a is seldom repeatable
21:20 thd russ: 300 $b is not repeatable
21:20 russ right ok
21:20 russ thanks
21:20 russ what resource do you use to find this out?
21:22 thd russ: has the most up to date information for the concise format information
21:22 thd russ: I may guess at what you want to know for encoding 300
21:24 thd russ: If you were wanting to use a repeated $b to add additional information about accompanying material in $e, which is not allowed then ..
21:24 thd put all the information in $e itself for the accompanying material
21:26 russ ok cool thanks
21:26 thd russ: consider the example of the atlas in[…]phys.html#mrcb300
21:27 thd russ: 300 ##$a271 p. :$bill. ;$c21 cm. +$eatlas (37 p., 19 leaves of plates : 19 col. maps ; 37 cm.)
21:28 thd russ: $e contains everything for the accompanying atlas which might have been in a repeated $b were it allowed.
21:29 thd russ: $e also contains what might have been in a repeated $c which is allowed but I have not noticed it used.
21:31 thd russ: $e, itself, is not repeatable
21:41 russ thanks for all of that, that link to the loc was helpful, i have found what i need.
02:11 osmoze hello
02:16 btoumi hi all
02:16 ToinS hello
02:29 btoumi hi toin's
02:34 ToinS salut bruno
02:35 btoumi ca va
02:35 btoumi ?
02:36 hdl hello world
02:36 ToinS très bien
02:36 ToinS salut hdl
02:36 btoumi hello hdl
03:39 slef hii
04:00 ToinS hi slef
06:40 tumer hdl:are you around?
07:20 hdl tumer[A]: I'm here.
07:20 hdl I was having lunch and overlooked your beep
07:20 hdl tumer ???
07:20 dewey tumer is here for a few seconds ;-)
07:21 tumer hi hdl?
07:21 hdl hi
07:21 hdl how are you ?
07:21 tumer i am having probleems with authorities
07:21 btoumi hi all
07:22 hdl If I can help.
07:22 hdl Can you tell me ?
07:22 tumer hdl: on the editor when you get an authority with all these repeatable fields..
07:22 tumer the gets confused
07:23 hdl an url ?
07:23 tumer if the cataloger plays with cloning subfields or changing their order..
07:24 tumer and then tries to field the field from the authorities..
07:24 hdl Oh Yes.
07:24 tumer they get filled into differnt tags ..
07:24 hdl OUPPS.
07:24 tumer or if you try to delete tem..
07:24 tumer it deletes a different tag
07:25 tumer hdl:did you get this?
07:25 hdl No, but I have VERY simple authorized forms.
07:26 tumer hdl: do you understand the problem?
07:26 hdl Yes.
07:26 hdl Should be a problem of dupping the authtagtoreport using the good order.
07:26 tumer so authorities is now btoken with this new editor and i had to stop using authorities
07:27 hdl Is this only because of the latest changes in MARC editor ?
07:27 tumer i think so because we never had it before
07:28 tumer we are in the middle of cataloguing 10,000 books and the system is now broken
07:28 hdl BEST is the fiend of good. :(
07:29 hdl which version are you working on ?
07:29 hdl devweek ?
07:29 tumer if you want to reproduce the problem..
07:30 tumer juts have a page where there are more than one field that uses authorities in te same page
07:30 tumer thd: i am using dev_week merged to rel_2_
07:31 thd tumer: yes
07:31 tumer i am using npl templates though
07:32 hdl wow, what a mess.
07:32 tumer hdl:also i think there is a missing code
07:33 hdl Is there an official branch for devweek merged with rel_2_2  or is it that You did a merge ?
07:33 tumer when you clean a field of authority the authority number does not get cleaned..
07:34 tumer the only cleans subfields a..z
07:34 thd tumer: I had thought that there had been no changes to the authorities editor in a very long time
07:35 tumer thd:i am talking about using authorities in normal marc editor
07:35 hdl tumer: It is not so easy to understand but with default templates, you have to open the popup and clear entry.
07:35 tumer thd: thats exacly the what i am talking about
07:35 thd yes, I was about to guess that
07:36 tumer oh hi thd
07:36 thd hello tumer
07:36 tumer hdl:the previous line was supposed to be for you not to thd
07:37 thd I realise you pinged me by mistake
07:37 tumer its just that i write to td more so used to write ths automatically
07:38 tumer the last line is a mess of mistakes.sorry
07:38 hdl It's ok.
07:38 tumer hdl:its the same way with npl templates. You use a popup for athorities
07:39 thd tumer: so the problem is that $3 is not being cleared when the popup is opened?
07:39 hdl But on my devweek version, which is quite old, the "clearing" of authorities seems to work.
07:40 hdl (thd: $9 kohaauth number)
07:40 tumer hdl:yes on the screen buth the marc record could be left with $9 authid filled
07:40 thd oops $9 I mean
07:41 thd tumer: are you using a recent version from CVS?
07:41 tumer hdl:the main problem is not cleaning
07:41 tumer the problem occurs if you use this cloning of subfieds and then use yhe authorities
07:42 thd tumer: which version are you using?
07:42 tumer my marc editor is version the one just before paul broke
07:43 tumer i am afraid to upgrade now
07:43 thd tumer: that version has a problem when cloning fields and certainly you should not upgrade the
07:44 thd tumer: kados made a fix which he has not posted yet but which he described the needed changes
07:45 tumer well thats not so easy of not upgrading as the system is now half-breed
07:46 hdl Yes, I understand.
07:47 tumer hdl:say a subject authority has 150$a 150$x and another 150$x does it get transferred to the marc editor correctly?
07:48 hdl I have not tested. But paul told me that there could possibly be a problem.
07:49 tumer hdl:well there is. It does not
07:49 hdl I could investigate but not before next week.
07:50 tumer even if you prepare multiple x's on the editor they get filled with same data allover.
07:50 hdl It should be a problem of PERL context.
07:51 tumer hdl:the problem i am having is not of multiple subfields but of completely wrong fields getting cleared or even sometimes filled
07:51 thd tumer: I have found the fix kados suggested on #koha
07:52 hdl you know : when using $field->subfield('a') it returns either a string OR a list depending on the variable on the right of your =
07:52 thd 25/06/06 12:09:00+-5<kados:#koha>for a temporary fix
07:52 tumer hdl:the changes in marc editor breaks authorities
07:52 thd 25/06/06 12:09:11+-5<kados:#koha>look for all instances of 'new_from_xml' in
07:52 thd 25/06/06 12:09:17+-5<kados:#koha>and make sure they look like this:
07:52 thd 25/06/06 12:09:18+-5<kados:#koha>my $record=MARC::Record->new_from_xml($xml, 'UTF-8');
07:52 tumer thd:i already have that
07:53 thd oh, I suspected that all the bugs would not be gone
07:54 thd tumer: I have seen more examples of double encoding UTF-8 to UTF-8
07:54 tumer kados have been silent about encoding problems i reported anyone knows why?
07:55 thd tumer: kados is extremely fatigued by encoding problems
07:56 tumer thd:well at least that releives me some of mine
07:56 slef Is there any easy way to debug a z39.50 connection that I think is being blocked by a firewall, or do we need to wait for the administrator to interrogate the firewall?
07:58 thd tumer: there is still also a problem with the fonts used in the CSS for every template which will obscure the actual character content for some UTF-8 multibyte characters.
07:59 tumer thd:yes i know but not for internet explorer which i use
07:59 thd tumer: this problem is browser independent
08:00 tumer thd:as long as i keep with true type (unicode) characters of windows i do not et that problem
08:02 thd tumer: my problem of posting UTF-8 content is gone now with Firefox 1.5.04.  What I am identifying is a problem for character display that may not affect Turkish characters but certainly exists for French character display in both Firefox and the Opera post from Windows.
08:02 thd s/post/port/
08:03 thd slef: what problems does you Z39.50 connection report
08:03 thd ?
08:06 thd tumer: I am observing this character display problem especially in the uncommon cases where a fixed width font is used but maybe it is my GNU/Linux system
08:08 slef thd: none, as far as I can tell.
08:09 thd tumer: kados did say that he would hunt down the double encoding problem that you reported
08:09 thd tumer: he has only been back from ALA yesterday
08:10 thd slef: do you mean the connection is working fine or that you have no error messages? :)
08:11 thd slef: can you determine that the daemon is running with the ps command?
08:15 thd tumer we could test whether you can see the same problem when you are off phone
08:20 tumer thd: i am back now
08:21 tumer thd: what do you want me to do?
08:25 tumer thd: the page looks normal with french accented characters
08:27 thd tumer: do you see a difference between the representation of the accented character in the results for search sting and author results column?
08:27 tumer thd:no it looks perfectly fine
08:27 thd tumer: what accented characters do you see?
08:28 tumer thd:i see accented e that is é
08:28 slef thd: yes, and I can run it through the debugger.  It forks but never changes from Still ?? requests to go.
08:29 thd tumer: so the problem is with X-windows or fonts on my GNU/Linux system then.
08:29 tumer thd: only in name Valérie there is an accent
08:30 tumer thd: by the way this is what i am trying to achieve
08:30 thd tumer: thank you now I know that I suffer deeply for my freedom I see some very strange out of order accent on this page
08:31 thd tumer: yet, because different fonts are use on the page with an individual record instead of multiple search results the individual record looks fine
08:32 tumer thd:yes the problem is how did you mabage to get this page display correctly like this and not have the double utf8 problem?
08:33 tumer doing the same search on my system will give the double encoding problem
08:33 thd tumer: my X-windows may also be partly misconfigured like everyone's
08:34 tumer thd:so you mean you know the solution or this?
08:34 thd tumer: I have not seen the double encoding problem on the installation on my system at home but I have seen it on a production system that I have been working on for kados
08:35 thd tumer: I do not know the solution for double encoding other than finding where it is happening and stopping it.
08:36 tumer thd:now this is serious. What you are saying is that its not a double encding problem but a problem of X-windows or Windows?
08:37 tumer thd: by the way is your serach results coming from ZEBRA or mysql?
08:38 thd tumer: i expect that the double encoding I see on the production system where I have been editing records is from some part of the system not recognising that the record was already converted from MARC-8 to UTF-8.  There had somewhat recently been a problem for MARC::File ::XML doing that.
08:38 tumer thd: are you using zebra?
08:38 thd tumer: my search results are coming from SQL
08:39 thd tumer: I have not taken the time actually to set up Zebra yet.
08:40 thd tumer: I have s[pent most days recently too busy to advance my installation of Koha
08:40 tumer thd:we may be sitting on another problem that this thing actually happens with ZEBRA only and not with SQL?
08:41 thd tumer: I expect that the production system where I have seen double encoding is not using Zebra but I am not certain
08:42 thd kados: are you awake yet?
08:42 tumer thd:the same record with the same search will yield the double encoding on my system and kados's which both use zebra
08:43 thd tumer: do you mean that you added it to your system?
08:43 tumer thd: no but i have the same authorname i mean
08:44 thd tumer: that is very bad
08:44 thd tumer: has your record been saved with the record editor or only imported?
08:45 tumer thd:unfortunately i have to go to a reception now, but at least we are starting to all see the same problem which is good
08:45 thd :)
08:46 tumer thd:if you catch kados can you please mention him this coversation?
08:47 thd tumer: I have been trying to show him this problem since late yesterday
08:47 thd tumer: I hope that he has not gone away
08:48 thd tumer: you also have the other problem with not clearing $9.
08:50 thd slef: do you have a valid reliable Z39.50 target configured and are you searching for a record that can certainly be found?
08:50 kados thd: I will be soon :-)
08:51 kados thd: I've got to head out for a couple hours
08:51 kados thd: I'll be back later
08:51 thd kados:OK tumer and I have found something
08:52 kados thd: can't wait to hear about it ;-)
08:53 kados (btw: entity encoding the utf8 may be the answer to our previous encoding probs, I thought of that last night ...)
09:30 thd paul: are you there?
09:51 thd paul: are you still here?
10:41 slef thd: no and no
10:41 slef thd: :)
10:41 slef thd: I'm 99% sure the firewall is blocking z39.50 to all other servers :-/
10:43 thd slef: z39.50 servers are only good.  You should let them all in.  My firewall does not block z39.50 responses over port 80 but my security is low :)

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