IRC log for #koha, 2006-04-14

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:00 kados so something must be different about additem on 101
12:00 kados and in rel_2_2
12:01 kados very strange
12:01 kados owen: I bet that's because for NPL biblionumber and bibid are identical in most cases
12:02 kados owen: the template should be changed to bibid I think
12:02 kados owen: as that's what is looking for
12:02 owen ? You mean <!-- TMPL_VAR NAME='bibid' --> ?
12:02 kados yep
12:03 kados owen: see if you get the same results with that on 101
12:03 kados I'm guessing you'll find cases where you're not pulling up the correct items for a record
12:03 kados when you use biblionumber
12:04 kados maybe even cases like tim's where the items aren't showing up at all because there's a biblionumber that doesn't have a corresponding bibid
12:04 owen yes, I get the same results when I change it to bibid
12:04 kados and what do you get when you go
12:04 kados select * from marc_biblio where bibid='the id';
12:04 kados well ...
12:04 kados select biblionumber from marc_biblio where bibid='the id';
12:05 kados are they identical?
12:06 owen Yes
12:06 tim I just tried select * from marc_biblio where bibid=biblionumber and came up with nothing.
12:07 kados right
12:07 kados so that explains it
12:08 kados owen: try this:
12:08 tim So I shold change that on ours or did you already do that?
12:08 kados select bibid from marc_biblio where bibid!=biblionumber limit 10;
12:08 owen Just did :)
12:08 tim Thanks :)
12:08 owen And I confirm your conclusions
12:08 kados owen: and see if those ids come up funny when you try to edit
12:08 kados tim: yea, it's fixed on your box
12:09 kados tim: and we'll update cvs
12:09 kados tim: thanks for the bug report!
12:09 kados tim: and the solution ! (even better :-))
12:11 kados thx
12:15 owen We really haven't been using bugzilla lately have we?
12:22 kados hehe
12:25 owen Hmmm... bugs from version 1.2.2?
12:25 kados hehe
12:52 thd kados: record number 10 from Columbia Univ. has the following problem when using not well-formed (invalid token) at line 40, column 60, byte 1678 at /usr/lib/perl5/XML/ line 187
12:54 thd kados: as you would know stops importing at that point
13:36 kyle hey all.
13:36 kyle I just added my templates to cvs
13:36 kyle under the title ccfls
13:36 kados excellent kyle
13:36 kyle could someone check to see if it worked?
13:36 kyle thanks.
13:36 kados I"ll look now
13:36 kados hmm, don't see anything coming through on koha-cvs
13:37 kyle hmmmm.
13:38 kados kyle: did you attempt a commit to rel_2_2?
13:38 kyle yes
13:38 kados kyle: better pass it by paul first if so
13:38 kados kyle: he's getting pretty close to a release of 2.4
13:38 kyle ok, any idea where I should put them?
13:38 kados hang on just a sec
13:38 kados phone call
13:39 kyle I wouldn't say there are completely done, but I would put them at %98-99
13:40 kyle plus I need to clean out some old, unused files.
13:42 kados back
13:42 kados no koha-cvs yet
13:42 kados kyle: where'd you put them?
13:42 kados kyle: koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/ccfls ?
13:48 kyle yes
13:49 kados doesn't look like they came through
13:49 kyle i guess that's not a problem if that's not where I should be putting them anyway.
13:50 kados well, if it was up to me I'd put them there
13:51 kados but paul's the boss of rel_2_2
13:51 kyle do you want to ask him, or should I?
13:51 kados kyle: do you have a demo somewhere?
13:51 kados kyle: he'll be on tomorrow morning (our time)
13:51 kados kyle: if you want to talk to him
13:52 kados kyle: excited about France?
13:52 kyle we do have a test server, i'll ask cindy about it.
13:52 kados kyle: how's the data work going?
13:52 kyle I've never been out of North America, and I'm a bit anxious ; )
13:52 kyle you mean all our marc problems?
13:52 kados is there some way to rush your passport?
13:52 kados yea :-)
13:53 kyle yeah, I did all that this morning, I should have it in 10 days or less.
13:53 kados sweet
13:53 kados well that's gonna be fantastic
13:53 kados it'll be great to have you all there
13:53 kyle I think I'm going to try your idea using the perl marc libraries and just combine each libraries records for now.
13:53 kados yea, that'd be what I'd do
13:53 kyle I'm looking forward to meeting everybody.
13:54 kados there are some routines that may help you with identifying duplicates
13:54 kyle I figure later I can learn more about zebra and do some cleanup then.
13:54 kados snoop around in
13:54 kyle will do. thanks for the tip.
13:55 kados kyle: line 452
13:55 kados kyle:  FindDuplicate
13:55 kados you can probably use some ideas from that sub to build your own
13:56 kados and you'll definitely want to use the CVS versions of MARC::Record
13:56 kados MARC::File::XML and MARC::Charset
13:56 kados they're on sourceforge
13:56 kados the CPAN versions are really old
13:56 kados kyle: also, make sure you convert everything to utf-8
13:56 kyle ok, sounds good.
13:57 kados I'm 99% sure your records will come out as MARC-8 encoded
13:57 kados to convert to UTF-8 you can go:
13:57 kados           my $uxml = $record->as_xml;
13:57 kados         my $newrecord = MARC::Record::new_from_xml($uxml, 'UTF-8');
13:58 kados assuming $record is a MARC::Record object
13:58 kyle ok.
13:58 kados and that you're using the latest SourceForge versions of MARC::REcord, MARC::File::XML and MARC::Charset
13:58 kados it's kind silly to go from binary to xml and back to binary just to change the encoding
13:59 kados but there's not a simpler way to do it in MARC::Record proper with binary marc
13:59 kyle : /
13:59 kyle someday...
14:00 kyle I wish  marcxml were ubiquitous, it would make my life easier.
14:00 kados no kidding
14:01 kados kyle: you'll also want to read over the sections in MARC::Charset's on error reporting, etc.
14:01 kyle I can't believe how different our current ILS works, even from other ILSs of the time.
14:01 kyle ok, sounds good.
14:01 kados a lot of this stuff isn't documented and you have to go to the source
14:02 kados but the cool thing is that it's perl and the POD docs are usually pretty good
14:02 kyle yeah, i'd say so.
14:02 kados so perl=easy to read and POD=nice layout :-)
14:02 kados kyle: you should hang out here more often :-)
14:02 kyle i'll try to.
14:03 kados so all three of you coming to france?
14:03 kados or just you and Cindy?
14:04 kyle it seems that way. First it was just me and John. but Cindy rescheduled her vacation to come.
14:04 kyle so it's all three of us now.
14:05 kyle when I though it was just me i was *really* anxious.
14:05 kados hehe
14:05 kyle I imagined myself getting lost in Europe somewhere.
14:05 kados france is no sweat
14:05 kados you should try russia :-)
14:05 kados it gets real messy with visas and such
14:06 kados actually, I got pulled over and had my car searched when I was in Paris last :-)
14:06 kyle my wife went to russia, she said there are essentially no traffic laws and people park wherever they feel like.
14:06 kados they started pulling things out and throwing them on the sidewalk
14:06 kyle that's not cool.
14:06 kados it was tough because I didn't really know my rights
14:07 kyle it's hard enough to know your rights in your own country.
14:07 kados yea, parking in europe is interesting ... eastern europe especially :_)
14:08 kados whenever I get back from europe I'm always surprised at how large our cars are
14:08 kyle I was just thinking about that.
14:08 kyle I know European cars are gennerally much smaller.
14:08 kados yep
14:08 kyle Most american cars wouldn't fit on city streets.
14:09 kados kyle: looks like your commit's coming through
14:09 kyle mine probably would, I like very small cars. Except when moving.
14:09 kyle cool.
14:14 kados kyle: did you do an opac tempalte too?
14:15 owen I see the ccfls stuff coming down with my CVS update
14:15 owen If it was committed all at once, the message is probably being blocked for being too long (awaiting moderator approval)
14:15 kados yea, I approved it
14:16 kados kyle: liblime demo running ccfls template
14:17 kados looks cool
14:17 kyle no opac, at least no yet.
14:17 kyle thanks.
14:17 kados hehe, this rocks
14:18 kados open source _does_ work :-)
14:18 kados kyle: looks like you got current branch displaying as well
14:18 kyle i could definitly use some more eyes to spot those little problems.
14:19 kados at least on some pages
14:19 kyle I know I'm having trouble with finding some color settings.
14:19 kados kyle: one thing
14:19 kados kyle: charset=iso-8859-1
14:19 kados kyle: I bet it's hardcoded in your templates
14:19 kados kyle: check the latest NPL templates, there's a new syspref to store that var
14:19 kyle yeah, you're right.
14:19 kados kyle: chances are you'll want to run utf-8 anyway
14:19 kyle ok
14:20 kyle yeah.
14:21 owen kyle, what library are you with?
14:21 kados owen: Crawford County Federated Library aka Meadville Public
14:21 kados Meadville is to CCFLS as Athens is to NPL
14:21 kyle yup
14:22 owen Ah
14:22 kados kyle: it's the largest branch right?
14:22 kados kyle: meadville I mean
14:22 kyle yes. But the other libraries are actually independent, no branches.
14:22 kados ahh
14:22 kyle it makes getting things done alot harder.
14:23 kados kyle: so you opted against the left-hand bar eh?
14:23 kyle We have to get all the libraries to agree on anything we want to do.
14:23 owen Another WordPress site! Cool :)
14:23 kados kyle: I'm wondering why that was
14:23 kyle I was trying to create the simplest system possible.
14:24 kyle I wanted everything to be very obvious.
14:24 kyle we have alot of librarians who don't like change.
14:24 kados is this what your current system looks like?
14:24 kyle or, I should say, are just afraid of a new system.
14:24 kyle it's DOS based, blue background, white text.
14:25 kados ahh
14:25 kyle it's almost as old as I am ; )
14:25 kados wow, this will be quite a change
14:25 kados hehe
14:25 kyle yes, to them, it's a huge change.
14:25 kados one thing NPL's librarians missed was the shortcut keys that their old system had
14:25 kados so owen cooked up a few
14:25 kyle but I've had alot of positive feedback on the templates.
14:25 kados sweet
14:26 kyle yeah, I'm not sure if that's going to be an issue here.
14:26 kados yea, it looks very nice
14:26 kyle When most of the librarians here use a computer, they are very mouse-centric.
14:26 kyle they might forget about shortcut keys altogether.
14:26 kados gotcha
14:27 kados yea, I think that's what happend with NPL too
14:27 kados don't think too many folks use the shortcuts
14:27 kyle kados: what browser are you using
14:28 kados kyle: FF
14:28 kados kyle: on OSX
14:28 kados kyle: looks like addbiblio doesn't work
14:28 kyle that's my target browser, I'm not sure how it will render in others.
14:28 kyle what happens? it works here. Maybe I missed a file.
14:29 kados it just reloads the page
14:29 kyle what's the login for the liblime demo? I could take a look.
14:29 kados ahh
14:29 kados kyle: circ / liblime
14:29 kados nevermind
14:29 kados you followd the default convention on that page
14:29 kados rather than the NPL one
14:29 kados where addbiblio takes you directly to the editor
14:30 kados kyle: may want to take a look at recent commits to addbiblo.tmpl
14:30 kados kyle: quite a few cleanups
14:30 kados kyle: in the NPL templates
14:30 owen addbiblio.tmpl is a bear.
14:31 kados yep, a mean one too
14:31 kyle ok. I'll have to do that.
14:32 kados very impressive kyle
14:32 kyle I hope the colors aren't too garish.
14:33 kyle personally, I would have went with a two or three tone theme. But the librarians liked the idea of remember that red is checkout, and so on.
14:33 kados yea, I was just gonna say
14:33 kyle so it's a bit more pragmatic.
14:33 kados for the librarian interface
14:34 kados it's more about pragmatics than beauty :-)
14:34 kyle the graphics are all multilayer png's, so it should be quite easy to change the colors (I used fireworks to make tham).
14:34 kados sweet
14:35 kyle what would be really sweet is to generate them on the fly with image-magick and have the color scheme in the preferences.
14:35 kyle but that's a project on it's own.
14:43 kados we come up with a lot of those around here :-)
14:44 kyle is there a list of ideas online somewhere? we should write this stuff down. Maybe I'll get around to it, eventually.
14:46 owen We used to post enhancement bugs to bugzilla, but that was always like dropping them down a well
14:52 kados hehe, yea
14:53 kyle maybe we should start an "enhancments" blog or wiki, or something.
14:53 kados we've got a blog
14:53 kyle well, i've got to go. I'll drop in tomorrow.
14:53 kados cool ...
14:53 kyle later.
14:53 kados read you tomorrow
14:57 owen ah, here's a good old enhancement bug:[…]ow_bug.cgi?id=718
15:01 owen kados: if you're interested, I have more barcodes-related errors to report
15:02 owen Whenever.
15:03 kados owen: sure
15:03 kados owen: hit me with them
15:05 owen I get an error like this 6 times: File does not exist: /home/oleonard/koha/intranet/htdocs/intra​net-tmpl/barcodes/ITF-32000000135066.png
15:06 owen And this: Couldn't open file /home/oleonard/koha/intranet/htdoc​s/intranet-tmpl/barcodes/new.pdf, No such file or directory can't open an error logg, Permission denied at /home/oleonard/koha/intranet/cgi​-bin/barcodes/ line 67
15:06 chris owen does /home/oleonard/koha/intranet/​htdocs/intranet-tmpl/barcodes exist?
15:06 chris and is it writable by the user apache runs as?
15:07 chris -?
15:08 owen I'm a little hazy about permissions issues... it says the Owner is me, and it's not writable by anyone else.
15:08 chris write
15:08 chris right even
15:08 chris man i need coffee
15:08 chris do you have sudo rights?
15:09 chris if you do , sudo chown www-data barcodes
15:09 chris then apache should be able to write to it (to mark the barcode images)
15:09 chris make even
15:10 owen Thanks chris :)
15:13 kados owen: I'll take care of it
15:13 owen being hazy about permissions, I'm curious how this is handled for new installations. Will the installer make sure the permissions are correct?
15:13 kados it should
15:13 kados the apache user is stored in the koha.conf iirc
15:14 kados owen: try now
15:16 owen Okay, yeah. Looks like it's working now
15:16 kados sweet
15:17 owen The print preview isn't quite accurate
15:19 owen So kados is NPL's type of barcode in that list of barcode types?
15:30 kados hmmm
15:30 kados try code39
15:30 kados that should work
15:30 kados NPL's got some funky barcode stuff going on
15:32 kados ahh yea, we hve interleafed 2 of 5
15:32 kados but of course, the barcodes aren't stored as IL2of5 in the db
15:33 kados cause someone had the brilliant idea of stripping off some of the digits in the scanners
15:33 kados :-)
15:33 kados hmmm, still doesn't display
15:34 kados interesting, the preview page doesn't have the whole spine label either
15:34 kados so preview needs some work looks like
18:20 kados si: !
18:21 kados hehe
20:42 thd kados: rate of progress is 51 records an hour with very little resource consumption.  This is certainly mostly server response time.
20:43 kados thd: cool
20:43 kados thd: so how many hours has it been running?
20:43 thd kados: we are at 355/615
20:43 kados cool
20:45 thd kados: it has been running for about 6.75 hours.
20:47 thd kados: bad matches are quite minimal n my spot checks.  A title like "Am salmon" deserves to mismatch a pop recording with full contents at LC.
20:51 thd kados: The Alaskan cookery book with every recipe in the full contents was a nice early LC match.
20:51 kados cool
20:53 thd kados: LC does not spend time creating records like that.  Many recently published books of which that was a fine example have full contents for 505 supplied by the publisher.
20:55 thd kados: Many Canadian records provide two languages for the price of one with the LCSH in both English and French.
21:00 thd kados: I think the slower time this is taking relative to the first 29 record test is because the hit rate is higher for the records and more servers may be responding.  More of them time out in very early morning.
00:42 thd kados: 456/615 total matches, a 74% match rate, from the automated process of 61 records/hour completed 1.05 AM.  I will match more manually.  Of course, a very few are bad matches and will need to be eliminated.
00:46 thd kados: I have equalled the best expected manual match rate from a highly reliable automated process.
00:46 kados thd: congrats!
00:47 thd kados: wow you are still awake :)
00:48 kados thd: just barely
00:48 kados thd: I'm actually gonna head to bed in a sec
00:48 kados thd: been working on the encoding probs in rel_2_2
00:49 thd kados: I am most of the way through preparing an explanation of the output for you.  You can look at it the morning.
00:51 kados great
00:51 kados don't write me a book
00:51 kados :-)
00:51 kados k, I"m off to bed
00:51 kados have fun :-)
00:52 thd kados: no just an explanation of which files are which and the column values for delimited output.
00:52 kados cool
00:52 thd kados: Of course, you know me the column values have detailed explanations.
00:53 thd kados: no guessing required :)
02:52 paul hello world
03:03 pierrick hi paul
03:03 paul aye pierrick
03:25 paul (next week for sure)
03:25 paul code cleaning on the way (+ translations to english, as OP made many things in french :-( )
03:39 russ hi paul, hi perrick
03:42 pierrick hi russ
03:42 pierrick paul, who is OP ?
03:42 paul (Ouest Provence)
03:43 paul (i was afraid you could have work on borrowers screens... but I loose my cell phone, so could not reach you. + I had no easy web access)
03:44 paul (happy to see you did not work on it ;-) )
03:45 osmoze hello
03:46 paul hélhuile
03:46 pierrick hdl knew I was working on budgets :-)
03:46 pierrick paul, grande forme aujourd'hui
03:46 pierrick hello osmoze
03:46 osmoze lol
03:46 osmoze :)
03:56 slef si: can you /mode #koha -t please?
05:27 paul osmoze: ...
07:33 paul et revoilà pierrick !
07:37 pierrick oui, en revenant de déjeuner j'ai pas cliqué sur le bon bouton... et l'ordi s'est éteint
07:37 paul pas glop !
07:37 paul bon, en attendant, j'ai répondu à ta remarque sur koha-devel
07:38 pierrick oui, j'ai lu (priorité à la mailing-list par rappor à l'IRC)
07:48 kados hi #koha
07:48 kados welcome back paul
07:48 paul hello kados
07:48 kados paul: I committed partial fix for the encoding probs
07:49 kados paul: still working on one problem
07:49 kados paul: but at least now the records can be created without being completely destroyed
07:49 kados paul: (only problem remaining is contained in MARC::File::XML I think)
07:50 paul I've seen "as_xml_record". what is this done for ?
07:51 kados this creates the XML as <record></record> instead of <collection></collection>
07:51 kados but that's not the important fix I don't thing
07:51 kados think
07:52 paul it's
07:52 paul +my $xml= MARC::File::XML::header(C4::Context->preference('marcflavour')​,C4::Context->preference('TemplateEncoding'));
07:52 paul ?
07:52 pierrick hi kados
07:53 kados paul: partly yes
07:53 kados paul: also in
07:53 paul kados: katipo commited new barcode print in rel_2_2 if I see correctly.
07:53 paul MARC::File::XML->default_record_format( 'UNIMARC' );
07:53 kados that too
07:53 kados two more lines :-)
07:53 paul does this require an updated MARC::File::XML ?
07:54 paul my $record=MARC::Record->new_from_xml($xml,C4​::Context->preference('TemplateEncoding'),​C4::Context->preference('marcflavour'));
07:54 paul (twice)
07:54 kados paul: yes, and I'm stillworking in MARC::File::XML so it will require yet another update before I am done I think
07:54 kados paul: 100% :-)
07:54 kados paul: I continue to work on encoding this morning
07:55 paul then no more changes in rel_2_2 and work on head only (except for bugfixes) ?
07:55 paul the good news : I have code from Ouest Provence & should be able to commit it this week on next week.
07:56 paul the less good news : it's poor perl, i fixed many things, but it's still poor.
07:56 paul (it's the borrowers feature)
07:56 paul they should send me tomorrow all features for reserve & circulation
07:59 kados no more changes in rel_2_2++
07:59 kados except for bugfixes
07:59 kados for instance, the marc_word bug I discovered needs to be fixed before 2.4 IMO
08:13 slef kados: I had something to say to you and I was going to put it in the topic but the topic is locked and there's no memoserv here as far as I know and now I forget what it was :-/
08:14 kados hehe
08:14 kados yea, si needs to help us out when he gets up
08:20 slef oh yeah: are there notes from 2006-04-10 meeting?
08:24 kados hmmm ... we didn't really have one :-)
08:24 kados it was just pierrick and I
08:28 pierrick slef, during the meeting we talked about the next Bug Squashing Party (planned next week) and about Unicode status (I've sent a mail some minutes ago)
08:29 pierrick kados, what are the required version of additional packages for Zebra-plugin?
08:29 pierrick Net:Z3950::ZOOM? Zebra? Yaz?
08:30 kados pierrick: required versions for a stable system is the latest versions available from
08:30 kados pierrick: ZOOM 1.1 I think
08:30 kados pierrick: zebra 1.4?
08:31 kados pierrick: not sure about yaz, but latest debian feed from indexdata has correct version
08:31 kados pierrick: sarge feed is several versions behind
08:33 pierrick OK, I update my installed packages
08:35 shedges hi paul
08:35 paul hi shedges
08:35 shedges may I ask a question (or two) about "Installation de Koha sous Windows?"
08:41 shedges paul: are you the author, or hdl, or both?
08:41 paul (sorry, I was on phone)
08:41 paul it's hdl
08:41 paul but he's away & won't be back until tomorrow
08:41 shedges paul:  the document refers to a koha-2.2.6 directory, should that be koha-2.4.0?
08:41 paul mmm... no, that should be 2.2.5
08:42 shedges (location of KohaBMutf8.sql)
08:42 paul (as there are some problems for 2.4.0 it seems)
08:42 shedges OK, I list hdl as the author, change 2.2.6 to 2.2.5
08:42 paul hdl planned to release it with 2.2.6, but as 2.2.6 will finally be called 2.4.0 and it has some bugs, we decided to release it now
08:43 shedges thanks!
08:43 paul you're welcome
09:10 cm paul, are you here?
09:10 paul yep
09:10 paul hello cm.
09:10 paul but who is cm ?
09:11 cm hello--this is cindy from CCFLS.  :)
09:11 paul hi cindy.
09:11 paul (a liblime customer if i don't mind)
09:11 cm Kados said I should pop in to talk to you.  We're coming to the dev week.
09:12 paul wow, great
09:12 paul "we" means how many ppl ?
09:12 kados cm: hey cindy
09:12 cm Yeah, a week in france is not so bad!  
09:12 cm hey kados!
09:12 cm three people, paul.  John, Kyle and me.
09:12 kados paul: I told them they might need to rent a car to join us if they stay in marseille
09:12 kados paul: all our cars are full, right?
09:12 kados s/our/your/ :-)
09:13 paul maybe yes, maybe no : antoine, my student has a car !
09:13 cm i booked the hotel.  we're staying in the same one as everybody else.
09:13 slef cars? in France? bwahaha
09:13 kados ahh...great!
09:13 slef Cedez le Passage !
09:13 paul hehe, this hotel will be filled by KohaCon (as it's a small one)
09:13 kados cm: great news! I was worried ther wouln't be space
09:13 slef hell I will...
09:13 kados hehe
09:13 cm at least in france you drive on the proper side of the road.  :D
09:13 kados slef walks 40K to the meeting each day :-)
09:13 paul imho, the main problem for an american is to deal with manual driving
09:14 slef slef stays on the trains in France
09:14 paul is up now ?
09:14 kados :-)
09:14 slef Autoroutes are masochism, far too full, like to London motorways
09:14 kados paul: yes, but it needs checking to ensure it's completely migrated
09:14 cm can we rent an automatic?
09:14 slef you want wide open farm tracks like East Anglia
09:14 paul => not found
09:14 kados I need to step away for about 20 minutes
09:15 paul you can probably, but that will cost more money
09:15 paul (although i could not tell you how much)
09:15 slef or easycar?
09:15 kados paul: it works fine for me
09:15 cm we'll have to check into 'em.  thanks, slef.
09:15 paul now it works.
09:15 paul strange...
09:16 paul cm: could you give me complete name of ppl coming ?
09:16 cm is there a metro stop near the university?  
09:17 cm John Brice, Kyle Hall, Cindy Murdock.
09:17 paul nope. It's something like 1-1.5km from the metro.
09:17 cm that's not too bad.  
09:18 paul kados: what's the name of tina & sara pls ?
09:19 paul kados: what do you plan to do between 4th and 8th ? could we have 1 day in Marseille to organize the devWeek ?
09:20 paul (maybe on sunday, I could get you when you arrive, invite you in my home & take few hours to speak of the devWeek program)
09:20 slef Do enterprise rent-a-car have shops in France?
09:20 paul for sure slef
09:21 slef might be easy for foreigners, I guess
09:34 cm I can't find rentals for france at; has them.  we'll have to shop around.
09:34 paul cm: i'm not sure it's a good idea to rent a car for Marseille.
09:35 paul as the hotel is in the center, and it's a problem to get parking
09:35 paul + marseillais (marseille citizens) really drive madly
09:35 paul + you won't have a big need for the car
09:36 paul but do as you want ;-)
09:37 pierrick paul, no parking in the hotel?
09:37 paul I don't think so. but public parking close.
09:37 paul (not cheap)
09:38 kados paul: no plans yet from 4-8, will arrive in marseille on 7th, so maybe we could plan that day?
09:38 paul yep.
09:38 paul do you think we should plan the program before ?
09:38 kados yes, and I intend to make a wiki page with what I think we should do
09:38 paul I don't know, & I must say i'm really really overbooked & don't have time to organize anything
09:39 paul ok, so I let you the lead here
09:39 kados right ... I'm quite busy as well but I hope to have a few days before I leave + some days in Geneva
09:39 paul (you're release manager, so be leader ;-) )
09:39 kados ok :-)
09:39 pierrick paul, did you plan devWeek "afters" ?
09:39 paul not yet.
09:40 paul I asked SAN-OP, they are ok, but did not suggest anything yet
09:41 cm paul: thanks for the tip. I suspected as much about the crazy driving. ;)
09:58 kados morning owen
10:00 owen Hi
10:03 kados paul owen and pierrick
10:03 kados I made a commit yesterday that completed a transition from
10:04 kados CGIitemtype to itemtypeloop for
10:04 kados this is directly relevant to the current thread on koha-devel about templates I believe
10:05 kados paul: what is the status of the cloneField? is it stable?
10:05 paul no, the mail on koha-devel is still relevant
10:05 paul (addbiblio & cloneTag)
10:06 paul chris told me he would ask bob to fix it, but no news from nz
10:07 kados ok
10:07 kados nz is working on a major bug in acquisittions I think
10:07 kados quite busy on it from what I understand
10:08 kados so that may explain the delay
10:08 paul do you know which kind of bug ?
10:09 kados no
10:09 kados but it's with budget-based acquisitions
10:09 kados so probably doesn't affect either of us :-)
10:09 kados many other things to absorb this year :-)
10:10 kados (about template mail)
10:10 kados yes, it's still relevant
10:10 kados what I mean is that the commit I made is related to the mail :-)
10:11 kados because if I understand correctly
10:11 kados pierrick is arguing _for_ CGIitemtype
10:11 kados while owen is arguing _against_ it
10:11 kados ie, more control in the template or not
10:12 owen kados: your particular case demonstrated an additional argument against CGIitemtype: the introduction of unstranslatable strings
10:12 kados right
10:12 owen But is there a way to do it that wouldn't introduce that problem?
10:13 owen If you're looping out <option> tags, there's no reason why you couldn't hand-code additional <option>'s above or below the loop
10:13 kados well, what exactly is the problem?
10:14 kados the length of the template strings?
10:15 pierrick IMO, a problem is that we can't use localized strings outside of templates
10:15 owen Actually, I don't think pierrick even addressed the CGIitemtype issue directly
10:15 pierrick we should be allowed to do this with gettext in Perl
10:15 owen His example was the 'selected' attribute in a select list
10:15 paul pierrick : the problem here is that we don't translate "on the fly".
10:15 pierrick owen, you're right I didn't but if I read CGIitemtype examples, I wowuld be OK to use them
10:16 paul so, your solution means having 1 cgi-bin directory for each language
10:16 kados paul: who's solution?
10:16 paul that's really poor I think.
10:16 paul (having strings translated in perl)
10:16 kados ahh, right
10:16 pierrick paul, I understand why we don't translate on the fly (performances I suppose) but I'm not sure this is really relevant
10:16 kados ideally, all strings should be in the template
10:17 pierrick kados, why?
10:17 paul pierrick : this is, unless you run mod-perl.
10:17 kados pierrick: because for translators, it's best
10:17 paul and mod_perl must not be mandatory
10:17 kados pierrick: otherwise, it's going to be too hard to translate everything
10:17 kados pierrick: will have to modify cgi-bin and template dirs
10:18 kados mod_perl means that everything is pre-compiled
10:18 pierrick I never said we should have strings in scripts
10:18 kados ok
10:18 kados so what is your suggestion?
10:19 pierrick I said we should have the possibility to do things like $template->param('text' => gettext('My string to find in a PO file'));
10:19 kados interesting
10:19 pierrick (that's how all other softs works ;-)
10:19 pierrick I invent nothing
10:19 kados right
10:20 kados so a translator has to translate template + create a new PO file?
10:20 pierrick concerning strings in templates, we create useless limitations
10:20 pierrick how could I have "Show 34 budgets"?
10:21 kados where?
10:21 pierrick with Perl I would do sprintf(gettext('Show %d budgets'), scalar @budgets)
10:21 pierrick kados, in a template
10:21 pierrick with template only solution, this is not possible
10:21 kados in the template you woudl ahve
10:22 kados Show <!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="number" --> budgets
10:22 pierrick kados, you're not linguist?
10:22 pierrick ;-)
10:22 kados hehe
10:22 owen We've discussed the gettext option before
10:23 owen And one of the reasons for rejecting it is the layer of complexity it puts on the process of creating templates
10:23 kados hang on, I don't quite understand
10:23 kados pierrick: are you suggesting we could have 'budget' and 'budgets'?
10:23 kados pierrick: depending if there were 1 or more budgets?
10:24 pierrick kados, for some languages you have to translate and to change the template, because de the number of budgets have to be at the end of the string
10:24 paul yes pierrick, but our gettext tool handle that !
10:24 paul it transforms Show <!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="number" --> budgets into
10:24 pierrick kados, problems of singular/modal/plural is not what I was pointing and is a very difficult problem
10:24 paul Show %d budgets
10:24 paul that can be translated to :
10:24 paul montre budgets (%d au total)
10:25 paul and the template compiler will generate :
10:25 paul "montre budgets (<!-- TMPL_VAR name="number" --> au total)
10:26 pierrick so you moved complexity to the template translator :-)
10:27 pierrick anyway, I would have liked to be able to reach localized strings from Perl :-)
10:27 pierrick for the pagination_bar for example
10:28 owen What about a /limited/ use of that?  For cases of like the pagination bar?
10:29 paul pierrick: the translator tool has been written by ambrose C Li, a chinese guy. So he had most of the problem we could ever get ;-)
10:30 paul (in fact, I had the idea & wrote the 1st version, but it was not with gettext & was really poor. ambrose almost rewrote everything)
10:37 owen kados: are we getting any closer to an answer for you :)
10:37 owen ?
10:37 kados owen: i think so :-)
10:38 kados so the answer is that we move all CGI stuff to loops that the template designer / tranlator can deal wtih
10:49 owen kados: what's new with the expiration dates?
10:50 kados owen: they should be calculated based on the borrower's category rather than hardcoded to 30 days
10:50 kados owen: that is if they are working :-)
10:50 owen Okay, I'll try it out
10:50 paul kados: they are (on head)
10:50 kados paul: this is different ...
10:50 kados paul: it's just a button that NPL requested
10:50 paul ok
10:52 kados hehe
10:56 owen Okay kados, I see one problem: when you renew a patron, it adds X number of years to the expiration date, rather than X number of years to /today's date/
10:56 owen The latter is what I would expect
10:56 kados owen: ahh
10:56 kados ok, I'll fix that real quick
10:58 kados owen: open
10:58 kados line 130:
10:58 kados my $renewaldate = DateCalc($warningdate, $offset);
10:58 kados change that to:
10:58 kados my $renewaldate = DateCalc('today', $offset);
10:58 kados owen: if it works, commit it
10:58 kados owen: otherwise let me know
11:13 owen Yes, it seems to work fine now
11:37 pierrick I'm leaving office, read you tomorrow folks :-)
11:38 owen Have a good evening, pierrick
11:52 kados paul: got a sec?
11:52 kados paul: I'm wondering what the process is for translation as things change
11:52 kados paul: is there a way to just translate the changes?

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