IRC log for #koha, 2006-03-18

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
15:01 kados yay logbot!
15:08 kados lunch
17:55 CaptPancakes anyone here?
18:10 CaptPancakes cool, I have a question about the install procedure
18:10 kados sure
18:11 CaptPancakes here's my scenario... I'm running Clarkconnect Home 3.2, it's based on CentOS which isn't too different from Fedora
18:11 kados gotcha
18:11 CaptPancakes I'm not very familiar with Apache
18:11 CaptPancakes I'm learning I should say =)
18:11 kados right
18:11 kados what version are you running?
18:12 CaptPancakes 2.0.52
18:12 CaptPancakes I've got all of my deps. in order.
18:13 CaptPancakes and I've untar'd and ran
18:13 kados k
18:14 CaptPancakes I mostly answered with the defaults, cause I'm just testing
18:14 CaptPancakes now I'm to the part where I need to setup my httpd.conf file, I would assume
18:14 CaptPancakes I'm going by what documentation I can find
18:15 CaptPancakes anyways, I'm using the Hints file that came with the tar.gz.  I'm using it strictly for a generic httpd.conf that will only run koha
18:15 kados huh
18:15 kados well if you run it'll generate a koha-httpd.conf file for you
18:15 CaptPancakes okay
18:15 kados it puts it in /etc by default
18:15 CaptPancakes yes, it's there.
18:15 kados use that as your guide
18:16 CaptPancakes okay, I'll try it, instead... thanks
18:16 kados np
18:21 CaptPancakes my goodness...
18:21 CaptPancakes that was much easier
18:22 CaptPancakes I was definately making it way to hard on myself, thanks kados
22:49 thd kados: I am back
22:49 thd not very awake but back :)
05:09 kados paul: back so soon?
05:09 paul so soon ?
05:09 paul it's 9am in France.
05:09 paul so yes, i'm back !
05:10 paul (& have seen ed & mike mails on perl4lib. I'll try to give cvs file:xml a try today)
05:10 kados hehe
05:10 kados great
05:10 kados paul: I have made many many improvements on the editor while you slept
05:11 paul I've seen a commit, but not investigated it in fact
05:11 kados no commit yet
05:11 kados I'm not quite finished
05:11 kados here's what i added:
05:11 kados * subfield repeatability
05:12 kados * subfield reordering
05:12 kados * hide indicators and subfield tags of fixed fields
05:12 kados * add some nice formatting and proper 'tabs'
05:12 kados * add a new systempreference for 'advancedMARCEditor' which allows professional cataloger to remove tag and subfield labels (off by default)
05:13 paul there will be no need for a new MARC editor soon ;-)
05:13 kados * some special mouse cursor effects
05:13 kados heh
05:13 paul how do you handle subf repeatability?
05:14 kados try it out
05:14 paul what do you mean by "proper tabs" ?
05:14 kados I sent you a link in pmesg
05:14 paul yes, i'm on it, but can't see.
05:14 kados ahh ... look for small + next to some subfields
05:14 kados like 015$a
05:14 chris are you still awake kados
05:14 paul yes, very great !
05:14 kados chris: yea :-)
05:15 chris cut down on the coffee man :-)
05:15 kados hehe
05:15 paul (yes chris, and he told me I was early on my keyboard !)
05:15 chris hehe
05:15 kados we're very close to having one of the top MARC editors on the planet :-)
05:15 paul :-)
05:15 chris :-)
05:15 kados here's what I'm working on now
05:15 kados do you guys know about xisbn service from oclc?
05:15 chris nope
05:16 paul what are the small "bz" just below the 010$a for example
05:16 paul no
05:16 kados paul: click on them
05:16 kados paul: this is the 'visibility' feature
05:16 paul ah, ok, now I see.
05:16 paul except it's so small that it's not easy to click on it !
05:16 kados anyway, xisbn is a web service ... you send them an isbn and they send you back all the isbns of all the same items
05:17 chris ahh right
05:17 kados (so if the book had hardcover/softcover, etc.)
05:17 paul same thing somewhere for a complete field ?
05:17 kados paul: you mean hide a complete field?
05:17 paul yep. For instance, the + submit the form ...
05:17 kados paul: no because MARC framework does not have a 'hidden' for tags
05:17 kados maybe eventually we can convert + to the new method for tags too
05:18 paul I was speaking of the +, sorry :
05:18 kados it might take some time
05:18 paul for instance, the + submit the form, that's a lot of network & time
05:18 kados yep
05:18 paul do you plan to submit this on rel_2_2 or head ?
05:18 pierrick hello :-)
05:18 paul hi pierrick.
05:18 kados paul: rel_2_2 if it's ok for you
05:18 kados paul: and head of course
05:19 paul yes, i'm 100000% ok !
05:19 chris :-)
05:19 kados paul: it will be tested in a production system before I commit
05:19 paul + I will improve a little bit the .pl, because many foreach nested are useless.
05:19 paul I think we can /10 the number of loops to do.
05:19 kados ok ... but be quite careful :-)
05:20 paul (I wrote addbiblio when I was a beginner with MARC::Record, and made many stupid things)
05:20 paul I think i'll rewritte only on head, to avoid bugs.
05:20 kados good idea
05:20 chris good idea
05:20 kados heh
05:20 paul kados won !
05:20 paul (but same second ;-) )
05:20 paul what do you call "proper tabs" ?
05:21 kados ahh ... when the page loads
05:21 paul advancedMARC editor is ON on antioch isn't it ?
05:21 kados hit the 'tab' key
05:21 paul the "waiting while page load" ?
05:22 kados (yes it's on; the labels will show up if you roll over the tag or the subfield id
05:22 kados no ... after page loads
05:22 kados hit 'tab'
05:22 kados it will start at 000 and increment correctly
05:23 kados ignoring subfieldids
05:23 paul ah, ok, that's great too !
05:23 paul a suggestion for hidden tags :
05:23 kados sure
05:23 paul if a tag is non mandatory (& has no values if it's a modif), we could hide all subfields by default.
05:24 paul we have those informations.
05:24 kados hmmm
05:24 kados I will think about this and discuss it with thd
05:25 kados we have a fairly compex method for determining 'visibility' currently
05:25 thd paul I do not understand what you are asking immediately
05:25 paul hi thd.
05:25 paul I mean : in framework, you can say :
05:25 paul * 701 field is "NON mandatory".
05:25 paul * it's in tab, say 5, with subfields $a, $x, $z.
05:26 thd hello I have been communicating outside of logbot because I was half asleep
05:26 kados I'm not sure why tags are marked mandatory
05:26 paul in UNIMARC, the 701 will be something like 20% filled.
05:26 paul because some are while some are not !
05:26 kados why not just mark the subfields?
05:26 paul when ADDING a biblio, we could have the tag 701,
05:27 paul but with all fields minimized by default
05:27 kados right
05:27 paul in your sample, tab 2
05:27 kados we can do that now in fact
05:27 paul the 210 is rarely filled I bet.
05:27 paul => takes a large part of the screen, 80% ofr the time for nothing !
05:27 kados (BTW: only tab 0 is up-to-date )
05:28 kados paul: we can already choose to do that based on the visibility flag ... but on the subfield level rather than the tag level
05:28 paul in tab 0, 024 is a good candidate too
05:28 thd paul: it is a problem to minimise many subfields as the form quickly becomes too large for memory and the network
05:29 paul thd : my idea is just to minimise the subfields that are here, so that's just a "visibility" property
05:29 paul should change nothing on network/memory.
05:29 kados paul: we already have that :-)
05:29 kados paul: but we specify at the level of subfield not tag
05:29 thd paul: I do understand well what you mean now I was merely trying to make something quick to tab through without a fast way to expand the collapsed subfields when needed.
05:30 kados paul: or do you mean a function that expands all subfields at once?
05:30 paul kados : ok, that's almost similar, I agree.
05:30 paul not necessary.
05:31 thd paul: as kados implements more keyboard friendly features in his JavaScript I would change the way the form is presented.
05:33 thd paul: my goal was the same as your idea but moving the mouse pointer to expand a collapsed subfield subfield takes too much time and I only retained a few collapsed ones to see what collapsed looks like.
05:33 paul ok thd.
05:34 thd paul: also, current behaviour that needs to be changed actually hides filled content of the collapsed subfields included in the editor by default which is not good.
05:35 thd because you would have no way to know what had been filled or not without expanding.
05:36 thd kados: we did this mostly in one night while I was half asleep and Kados had a customer starting in the morning.
05:36 kados heh ... yea :-)
05:39 thd paul: so I was not happy about the constraint that imposed upon thinking well about the design but kados had more sleep than I and was able to think very well under the pressure for an interim solution to the problem that you cannot fit 3,600 subfields in a form and have a responsive system
05:42 paul of course thd, that's why we will write a new system for 3.0
05:42 paul that will provide en "empty" form, that the cataloguer will fill.
05:42 paul I just try to find an idea to have the cleanest form as possible at the beginning of a new biblio.
05:42 chris just give them one textarea
05:42 chris and they can just type the marc in
05:42 chris :-)
05:42 paul that's the idea chris, but with many help ;-)
05:43 paul (I wrote a paper about this a few months ago)
05:43 thd paul: even though his head hurt as I asked him to provide for all the possibilities he managed to extend hidden in a way that worked quite well except for the default that I was not awake enough to catch until just after he had gone to sleep that collapsing or minimising a subfield already in the form hides the content even if populated.
05:44 chris paul
05:44 chris sounds very interesting
05:45 thd paul: please do not abandon the guided form based scheme my goal is to make the guided form based system as typing the codes into a text editor.
05:46 paul I don't plan to abandon it : i'll have a student for 2 month (april/may)
05:46 paul his school validate the project, I can't change it !
05:46 chris :)
05:46 thd as fast as is missing above that is my goal speed parity with greater precision
05:49 chris yay nz in the final
05:50 chris i have to stay up til midnight to watch it now
05:50 thd paul: I know that some cataloguers will never be happy unless they have nothing more than a text editor with a few extensions.  Something will be needed to satisfy them but I think guided forms will be the future and everyone will eventually copy the Koha way if we do not separate the record editor so that it can be used with other systems as a stand alone disintegrated module.
05:54 thd paul: you had suggested an API for the record editor to do just that some months ago.
05:54 paul I just suggested a few things.
05:54 paul they have to be copmpleted, for sure
05:56 thd paul: I think that the guided record editor as a separate module would be a great way to expose more people to Koha even on other systems until they switch completely for full freedom.
05:58 thd paul: some people are afraid of being liberated all at once so one can liberate them by degrees with the best exportable features in Koha.
05:58 thd s/features/modules/
06:02 paul thd : I agree.
06:02 paul (do you ever sleep ?)
06:03 thd kados: with reference to our previous discussion of ISBNs we need to replace the ISBN validation which may be breaking multiple ISBNs and binding information with ISBN-13.  All systems are supposed to have been ISBN 13 compliant since January.
06:04 thd paul: I was too tired to sleep well and then kados pinged me to show the wonderful new features and major bugfixes.
06:06 thd paul: If I do not eat enough and am excited about something I can stay awake much too long :)
06:07 thd paul: Although it is bad for productivity for the week as a whole.
06:08 thd paul: The range of tasks that I can perform with little sleep is somewhat limited.
06:09 thd kados seems to be able to code with no sleep.
06:10 thd paul: I could not write good original code without being alert but I can still write useful regexes and plod through 3,600 subfields.
06:11 thd paul: I will have to repay my sleep debt sometime in compensation.
06:17 paul hello jyl57
06:18 thd kados: I think the problem that I had identified with multiple ISBNs failing to appear in biblioitems.1SBN and having the binding abbreviation truncated may be be related to some ISBN validation code gone wrong but as I said I have not traced it.
06:18 jyl57 Salut !
06:23 pierrick Hi jyl57
06:23 jyl57 Hi Pierrick
06:24 jyl57 Welcome on board, koha's board I mean !
06:24 thd kados: why do the later tabs look different from tab 0?
06:26 thd kados: later tabs seem to have characteristics of appearance and behaviour prior to your recent changes.
06:27 chris thd
06:27 chris 09:27PM|<kados> (BTW: only tab 0 is up-to-date )
06:33 thd all better now
06:41 thd kados: If you expand a collapsed subfield the tab key skips it when tabbing through the adjacent subfields.
06:45 kados thd: can you fix 003 to not be mandatory please?
06:45 kados thd: I'll look into it
06:46 thd kados: I thought I fixed that once already :)
06:46 kados thd: not unless I don't have the most recent data loaded
06:46 kados thd: also, did you ever finish the holdings?
06:47 thd kados: you have the most recent that I sent but I fixed it some time ago at the subfield level I think the field was also copied from 001
06:57 kados thd: expanded subfields aren't skipped now
06:57 thd yaay
06:58 thd if only the collapsed in editor ones were expanded when filled :)
06:58 thd hello si
06:59 si evening thd
06:59 kados thd: that might be possible
07:00 kados thd: give me a sec
07:01 thd kados: not the ones that are not editor, those should stay collapsed unless manually opened
07:01 thd just the ones that are in editor and populated
07:07 thd yaay labels are back :)
07:11 thd the size for the repeated subfield plus could be a little larger as well as the size of collapsed subfield characters.
07:14 thd kados: If the selection tool pointer brought up the label for the collapsed subfield over which it was hovering that might help distinguish them better at the small size or otherwise.
07:29 hdl I was riding to Chambery. for Two days training period.
07:30 chris ahh
07:30 hdl And I thought about Easy riders...
07:30 chris :-)
07:30 hdl smileglasses
07:30 hdl hi all btw
07:32 pierrick hi hdl
07:52 kados paul: I committed my modifs ... and they are tested on the liblime demo
07:53 kados paul: now I go to sleep :-)
07:53 kados good night all
07:53 paul have sweet dreams.
08:00 pierrick 'night America
08:05 paul (kad os sleeping now)
08:07 pierrick paul: seems he night was long...
08:07 paul yep.
08:07 pierrick s/he/the
08:07 paul but usefull !
08:07 pierrick big commit as I can see
08:08 paul yep. I will try it asap.
08:08 paul (but I saw the new features "live" : they are great !)
08:09 pierrick will your new employee be at Kohacon ?
08:09 paul yep. but it's not an employee.
08:09 paul (stagiaire)
08:10 paul time to go to lunch. read you later

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