| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 14:29 |
|
peter_123 |
hello all! |
| 14:29 |
|
peter_123 |
I'm looking for the passwords for the Koha live CD. could anyone help me please? |
| 14:41 |
|
peter_123 |
? |
| 17:24 |
|
hdl |
indradg around ? |
| 19:44 |
|
thd |
rosa: what is you current view of "Never buy a programme that someone promises to write for you"? |
| 19:57 |
|
thd |
rosa: that was a precept that had once held. What precept do you hold now about that question? |
| 21:57 |
|
rosa |
are you still there THD? |
| 21:57 |
|
rosa |
sorry I'd covered over this screen |
| 22:29 |
|
thd |
rosa: I am here again, if your screen is uncovered now. |
| 23:19 |
|
rosa |
hi |
| 23:19 |
|
thd |
hello |
| 23:20 |
|
rosa |
I'd still be wary, I think. Maybe "Never buy a programme that someone you don't know very well promises to write for you |
| 23:20 |
|
rosa |
" |
| 23:22 |
|
thd |
rosa: so would you be judging their programming skill or their honesty in making promises that they can keep by you knowledge of someone whom you know very well? |
| 23:23 |
|
rosa |
both, but the latter more important |
| 23:25 |
|
thd |
rosa: I guess that is significant caution if you happened not to know any programmers. |
| 23:25 |
|
thd |
or at least not know them well. |
| 23:28 |
|
rosa |
It's probably not the programmers who are critical, unless they're self employed. It's the programmer's boss/es. |
| 23:28 |
|
rosa |
whoever signs the contract. You've got to be pretty sure they're going to deliver |
| 23:29 |
|
thd |
rosa: Yes, a contract is only as good as the good will of the signatories. |
| 23:33 |
|
thd |
rosa: Your caution is quite prudent. A similar sensible prudence seems to motivate library decisions to not risk anything on Koha development when the libraries do not know any of the current users or developers. |
| 23:36 |
|
thd |
rosa: chris and rach suggested that people should have more confidence in the software development process as they would with house building. |
| 23:39 |
|
rosa |
We only took the decision because I have baord of appointed Trustees, rather than an elected Council subcommittee. The trustees were more willing to take a punt. Plus we had a long business relationship with Katipo in terms of their supporting our networks for years, and making a succession of good, workable, innovative (nonMicrosoft) suggestions for enhancements. |
| 23:40 |
|
rosa |
Plus there is a personal rel;ationship which implied a little extra reason to have faith |
| 23:40 |
|
rosa |
did you realise Rachel is my son's partner |
| 23:40 |
|
thd |
rosa: I suggested that house building is different from software because the work of the builder on other houses is easier to evaluate than prospective software development where there is less sense of similarity from one software project to another. |
| 23:41 |
|
rosa |
very true |
| 23:41 |
|
rach |
we had built other houses - to use an anaology :-) |
| 23:42 |
|
thd |
rosa: do you mean your son's personal partner or business partner? |
| 23:42 |
|
rosa |
both |
| 23:43 |
|
rosa |
rach: and I suppose you could get another software expert to go and inspect, as you would a building inspector |
| 23:44 |
|
thd |
rosa: the best of everything. I do not know much about Rachel except that she seems very cogent, has dogs, and children. |
| 23:44 |
|
rach |
just one child currently in development :-) |
| 23:44 |
|
rosa |
not quite. That bump she is sporting is my first grandchild |
| 23:45 |
|
rosa |
Dogs she does indeed have |
| 23:47 |
|
thd |
rosa: Why do appointed trustees have more freedom than elected officials? |
| 23:47 |
|
rach |
thd - we'd built other software and released it as open source |
| 23:47 |
|
rach |
and we'd done quite a lot of other library work |
| 23:48 |
|
rosa |
thd: They don't suffer under the same public scrutiny of evry decision |
| 23:48 |
|
rach |
and the way things tend to work here, if we hadn't delivered a library system we wouldn't get paid |
| 23:48 |
|
rach |
and there was a backup plan |
| 23:49 |
|
rosa |
They are business people more willing to take a commerically attractive gamble |
| 23:49 |
|
rach |
so we covered off as many risks as possible from the libraries point of view |
| 23:49 |
|
rosa |
Councils have to be safe |
| 23:49 |
|
rach |
yep - or desperate :-) |
| 23:49 |
|
rosa |
:-)) |
| 23:49 |
|
thd |
rach: what was the backup plan? |
| 23:50 |
|
rach |
that we did the novell upgrade needed to get through y2k, and then they would still have their budget for getting a commercial system |
| 23:51 |
|
rach |
so we'd checked that particularly if we weren't going to get live on time that the library wouldn't just cease to function |
| 23:52 |
|
rach |
hah now we have seen how far over time/budget commercial installs can go we should feel quite chuffed |
| 23:52 |
|
thd |
rach: so that if you failed to meet your deliver schedule for Koha the library could opt out? |
| 23:52 |
|
rach |
yep - there was a delay option - so patch up the current system to run a bit longer |
| 23:53 |
|
rach |
and a bail out option - give up, do something else |
| 23:54 |
|
rach |
we as the contractors therefor being especially motivated not to let that happen |
| 23:55 |
|
thd |
rach: nothing like a good bit of motivation for things to happen. |
| 23:57 |
|
thd |
rosa: At the same time that you were opening the Koha system to solve your year 2000 problem, many other libraries were doing just the opposite. |
| 23:59 |
|
thd |
rosa: Many fine systems developed in house at universities died for year 2000. Several innovative Library of Congress systems suffered that fate collectively for year 2000. |
| 00:02 |
|
thd |
rach: What do you do to gain the trust where you do not know the prospective customer? (fortunately, that is not the problem that I am faced with now.) |
| 00:07 |
|
rach |
I try mostly for lots of personal contact |
| 00:07 |
|
rach |
we've also entered awards etc with Koha which adds credibility |
| 00:08 |
|
rach |
but really probably what we've mostly done is just be around for a reasonable length of time |
| 00:08 |
|
thd |
rach: entered and won :) |
| 00:08 |
|
rach |
yep :-) |
| 00:09 |
|
rach |
Katipo will be 10 years old next year, the Koha project got underway 6 years ago this month I think |
| 00:09 |
|
rach |
if people e-mail me, I e-mail them straight back - if it looks like we need to have more discussion etc I often phone them |
| 00:10 |
|
rach |
to reassure them that we're "real people" |
| 00:11 |
|
rach |
I think going to library conference was quite good for that as well |
| 00:12 |
|
thd |
rach: The test questions that I have been asked from someone who I believe knows me well enough to trust me have been more on the order of if I ask at the local library will anyone have heard of Koha. |
| 00:12 |
|
rach |
all our work though is basically project work - not necessarily on the same scale as Koha - but it's always delivering something basically from nothing |
| 00:13 |
|
rach |
well I susepct that if you asked at a local library here you'd probably get a "yes" |
| 00:13 |
|
rach |
we are loud :-) |
| 00:14 |
|
thd |
rach: nothing comes of nothing which is something that I have to explain better to the prospective Koha bookshop. |
| 00:14 |
|
rach |
we haven't necessarily been spectacularly succesful at getting more libraries to use koha - you want to ask Paul Poulain who has built a business just on Koha |
| 00:14 |
|
thd |
rach: Koha is built on top of other fine things that had been well proven. |
| 00:15 |
|
rach |
we still do a wide range of other work and have been quite slowely building up the koha side of things |
| 00:15 |
|
thd |
rach: Does most of Paul's business come from Koha? |
| 00:15 |
|
rach |
so some of our koha installs have been for clients we've been doing other work for - usually straight web work |
| 00:15 |
|
rach |
yep I believe so, and he has 2 or 3 guys working for him on Koha |
| 00:16 |
|
thd |
rach: I was still under the impression that they mostly did other things and only worked on Koha as needed while perhaps more often than others. |
| 00:16 |
|
rach |
so our advantage is that we're a medium (for NZ) sized buisness - 12 people, who've been going for a longish time - 10 years, so clearly we at least understand the basics of how you get projects out the door :-) |
| 00:18 |
|
rach |
and what we "sell" is us as much as Koha, so libraries who want to buy a shrink wrapped box of software and never see us again aren't our market |
| 00:19 |
|
thd |
rach: My project record is a MARC based database in two weeks at the same time as you were developing Koha but I avoid trying to break that speed record. |
| 00:19 |
|
thd |
rach: I took far too many shortcuts and did not need a circulation system. |
| 00:20 |
|
rach |
as you do |
| 00:24 |
|
thd |
rach: 12 people sound enormous compared to the companies that I know working with open source software in relatively small markets. |
| 00:25 |
|
rach |
yep we're no fly by nighters :-) |
| 00:25 |
|
rach |
not all full time, but it does mean we have a good breadth of skills |
| 00:27 |
|
thd |
rach: One company I know that has a few million dollar a year proprietary MARC cataloguing software business seems to be just two people. |
| 00:31 |
|
thd |
rach: kados has found many of RFPs from which LibLime is disqualified for not being around as a business long enough to be eligible for entry. |
| 00:33 |
|
rach |
yep I can believe that |
| 00:34 |
|
rach |
we didn't even try much with Koha for 3 years on the grounds that people wanted to know it had been around a few years |
| 00:34 |
|
thd |
rach: Have you found it more difficult to establish trust outside Oceania? |
| 00:35 |
|
rach |
no not really I think |
| 00:36 |
|
thd |
rach: Well that is reassuring. |
| 00:36 |
|
rach |
as in, people outside of NZ have contacted us, so presumably they've satisfied themselves before they bother to contact us |
| 00:36 |
|
rach |
we had one group in australia who said that we were heeps easier to deal with, more prompt, easier to get on the phone etc than their systems contractor in their home city |
| 00:39 |
|
rach |
we have had a few lucky breaks - we had someone in colorado contact us and chris was not that far away at the time on holiday, so he went to visit them |
| 00:39 |
|
thd |
rach: Your Australian competitor must be too complacent with all the libraries that use their system. |
| 00:40 |
|
rach |
libraries here don't seem to get that "loved" feeling much from their vendors, particularly from the big ones as they are all based elsewhere |
| 00:41 |
|
rach |
actually often for overseas clients you're dealing with them at funny times of the day - which is often a lot easier, and they get more attention because you don't have a whole lot of other stuff going on |
| 00:42 |
|
rach |
if they are in europe, they send stuff to us, go home to bed, get up in the morning and it's fixed :-) |
| 00:42 |
|
rach |
you don't get much better than that |
| 00:45 |
|
thd |
rach: Do you find inquires from libraries using less expensive proprietary licences as web services than what you can afford to support with Koha? paul and kados had referred to this problem with very small libraries where they could not afford to give the necessary time for a competitive price. |
| 00:47 |
|
thd |
rach: kados mentioned legacy Sagebrush Athena systems for circa US $900 a year all services license as an example. |
| 00:49 |
|
rach |
sorry I'm not sure I understand - are you asking if we get people asking about what it costs to install Koha, and the already don't pay much for an annual license? |
| 00:49 |
|
rach |
the = they |
| 00:49 |
|
rach |
so our fees are too high to be worth responding? |
| 00:49 |
|
thd |
rach: exactly, for very small libraries, have you found this issue? |
| 00:50 |
|
rach |
certainly, less so now we have put some pricing guides on our website |
| 00:50 |
|
rach |
that's why we did it |
| 00:51 |
|
rach |
http://www.katipo.co.nz/soluti[…]koha/pricing.html |
| 00:51 |
|
rach |
cuts down on the tyre kickers |
| 00:52 |
|
thd |
rach: What I am trying to ask is how prevalent these inexpensive systems for very small libraries are and how do they compare to Koha features? |
| 00:52 |
|
rach |
we still do spot contracting - so just an hourly rate to sort out koha problems |
| 00:53 |
|
rach |
Oh I don't know how many there are, there are a few that we've come accross, including the usual run of Access DIY systems etc |
| 00:53 |
|
rach |
so the usual suspects I think are inmagic and one that might be just here - accessit which is particularly aimed at schools |
| 00:54 |
|
rach |
but people with those systems don't usually do an RFP - so they ring or e-mail, and I give them a ballpark figure on the phone |
| 00:54 |
|
rach |
for the seriously price conscious it pays to get expectations out of the way early |
| 00:55 |
|
rach |
if they don't have the money for the data conversion, it |
| 00:55 |
|
rach |
it's just not worth it - we do do a hosted option, where we host thier koha install, and they are very quick to set up and $25/month |
| 00:57 |
|
rach |
main prob we found with the small/cash strapped was that they wanted to use their own PC's - ie windows box for it and that is a total pain to support |
| 00:57 |
|
rach |
hence the appliance and the hosted options |
| 00:58 |
|
thd |
rach: that is where I have had a problem with the bookshop |
| 00:59 |
|
thd |
rach: I found cheap salvage computers when the price of a new machine might make the total almost free price make the cheapest bookshop management system look tempting. |
| 01:00 |
|
rach |
I think that it's always going to be hard to compete just on price |
| 01:01 |
|
rach |
service, adaptablity, control and contribution to the "public good" have tended to be the things we like to make sure are also emphasised |
| 01:01 |
|
thd |
rach: That helped drive me out of the bookshop business myself when I had to compete from a high rent city with the rest of the world online |
| 01:01 |
|
rach |
wouldn't the cheepest bookshop system need a computer as well? |
| 01:02 |
|
thd |
rach: They run on MS Windows quite well. |
| 01:02 |
|
thd |
rach: So they can use the existing system for lower total cost of ownership. |
| 01:03 |
|
rach |
if you're wanting to play in that space I fear you'd need to get at one with Windows |
| 01:03 |
|
rach |
so for orgs who can only afford one computer |
| 01:03 |
|
thd |
rach: Flexibility and control is what is missing. |
| 01:04 |
|
rach |
really - I guess that depends on the skills at your disposal - for us it's fine but we have programmers |
| 01:04 |
|
rach |
who can pretty much bend it to our clients whims |
| 01:05 |
|
thd |
rach: I leave that to kados. I am trying to satisfy one person I know and would hope she would choose Koha over the cheapest bookshop system. |
| 01:06 |
|
rach |
it may not be a great fit - a video rental shop I've often thought would be a good option |
| 01:06 |
|
thd |
rach: Fortunately, this is not a demanding situation where there is no interest in an online commerce system. |
| 01:07 |
|
rach |
later |
| 01:07 |
|
thd |
rach: good night |
