IRC log for #koha, 2005-10-05

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
11:06 thd kados: what does 'careers' mean in the merging Argentine code section of LibLime's 2.4 Proposal?
11:06 paul hello thd
11:07 paul not sure joshua is there.
11:07 paul but I know what it means ;-)
11:07 thd hello paul
11:07 paul they have added some features to follow what a "borrower" does in the school
11:07 thd please tell :)
11:07 paul (remember it's a university)
11:08 paul so, they know that thomas D was in 1st year in 99-2000, then in 2nd year, option X
11:08 paul in 2000-2001
11:08 paul then was in 3rd year in MIT in 2001-2002 ...
11:08 paul what about your previous question (the one you wanted to ask me)
11:08 thd paul: How does that help a library application?
11:09 paul maybe useless.
11:09 paul and useless for sure for a public library ;-)
11:10 thd paul: before the translation question I have for you.  Do you know what the Argentine calendars do?
11:10 paul you can define closed-days
11:10 paul thus, when you issue a book, the return date will avoid closed days
11:10 paul (and find the next open day available)
11:10 paul iirc
11:12 thd paul: Well that sounds very nice.  Book return slots in New York City were closed long ago because people would use them to cause mischief and start fires!
11:14 thd paul: So from http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/koh[…]ge=KohaRoadmap3.0  ...
11:14 thd paul: What are BnF 'notes'?
11:16 paul (or don't remember at all...)
11:16 thd paul: I assumed that you or hdl had written that description :)
11:17 paul if I did, I don't remember at all. and hdl did not either
11:17 paul (afaik, and, as i'm it's employeer, I should know what he does ;-) )
11:18 thd paul: Does the following description make sense to you?
11:18 paul nope
11:18 thd ? remove existing notes ? Import all the fields ? Bond with acquisitions ?; Require a thorough analysis; PP : Problem of the timeout Apache to be regulated. For the recovery of the local fields, to see Marc ::Record
11:19 thd paul: I assume that you also do not understand what "Imports Authorities BRANCH" is supposed to do because that is related to BnF notes.
11:20 paul for this, i'm not sure, but i've an idea :
11:20 thd yes
11:20 paul there is a z3950 service in BNF to retrieve authorities
11:20 paul maybe it's related to this.
11:20 paul but i'm not sure either.
11:20 paul maybe this comes from Ineo (you should ask joshua)
11:21 thd paul: how do I get to that BnF service?
11:21 thd paul: Is it open access?
11:21 paul I was writing a mail to ENSMP that was at a meeting last week where BNF showed those new services
11:23 thd paul: Does the Z39.50 client daemon at demo.koha-fr.org ever run for bibliographic records?
11:24 thd paul: Who is Ineo?
11:25 kados thd: I think that was before your time
11:25 kados thd: INEO is a company in France that is planning to support KOha
11:25 paul about dmeo.koha-fr.org => i don't know. hdl has the answer
11:25 kados paul: welcome back!
11:25 paul thanks, hello joshua
11:26 hdl what about demo.koha-fr.org ?
11:26 paul Ineo is actively looking for a perl dev to work full time on Koha
11:26 thd hdl: Does the Z39.50 client daemon at demo.koha-fr.org ever run for bibliographic records?
11:26 paul http://fr.lolix.org/search/off[…]ffre.php3?id=4780
11:26 paul (in french)
11:26 hdl Ah ! Not at the moment.
11:27 hdl But it is sensible to set it on.
11:27 hdl I should do this... when I have time.
11:27 hdl Sorry.
11:27 paul because we may have flood & flood BNF server too.
11:27 hdl :S
11:27 thd paul: Is it dangerous?
11:28 paul so, i think we should not on a public prof interface.
11:29 thd paul: What does 'inscription' mean in "Messages of blocking/releasing of the inscription"
11:30 paul ??
11:31 thd paul: Does the following make sense to you?
11:31 thd To make explicit the messages of blocking and releasing of inscription compared to the rules of management of the media library. Management of the inscription for readers "except library".
11:32 thd paul: Or is that another puzzle from INEO?
11:33 paul that is, but I remember a little this one.
11:33 paul it's not Ineo related, in fact. It's SAN (Ouest-Provence) that want those features.
11:33 thd paul: Is that one of your customers?
11:33 paul they are related to issuing rules, that are a little different in SAN
11:34 paul nope. that is Ineo one.
03:16 osmoze hello
03:23 chris hi osmoze
03:56 paul hello chris
03:56 paul quit quite today on #koha ;-)
03:57 paul (quite quite I mean)
03:57 hdl hi all
03:59 paul (will deploy it on IPT server, for 2 days of tests before official release)
04:24 chris cool, good news about 2.2.4 paul
06:53 Sylvain hi all
09:10 thd paul: are you there?
09:12 thd paul: Tell me about the problem of leading or trailing articles in Arabic.  I have offered to fix many character set issues for Koha.
09:24 thd hdl: perhaps you could answer a question about sorting algorithms for UNIMARC titles.
09:25 hdl If it not Too time consuming.
09:26 thd hdl: In MARC 21 there is an indicator for defining the number of characters occupied by the leading non-sorting word and trailing space.  I can find no equivalent for UNIMARC.
09:28 thd hdl: Does one have to simply identify the leading articles with string matches for the language to sort UNIMARC titles without the leading articles?
09:31 hdl Leading articles : is this not related to stop words ?
09:31 thd hdl: Leading articles would be:  le, la,  l', les, un, une, des, de, d' for French.
09:32 hdl They are all included in french stop words list.
09:32 hdl I ordered items on a branch field.
09:33 hdl Titles were already ordered.
09:33 thd hdl: Stop words are usually words too common to index because of index size problems or lack of rarity for usefulness in distinguishing texts in a search.
09:34 thd hdl: Do you remove leading articles when ordering titles?
09:35 hdl I order items in the result lists.
09:35 hdl Titles were already ordered.
09:36 hdl But Answer is no.
09:36 thd hdl: What do you mean by titles were already ordered?
09:36 hdl I didn't design any peculiar process for order.
09:37 hdl Testing your base... you could have seen the order on your own.
09:37 hdl ;)
09:37 thd hdl: Therefore titles appear in letter by letter order.
09:39 thd hdl: I suspected I would know what to expect form Koha at this point in its development, such that I did not need to test.  Testing would merely have led me to ask the same question :)
09:41 hdl Maybe, but you wouldnot have searched especially for me. :)
09:41 thd hdl: Do your libraries not have enough titles for this question to be asked before?
09:43 thd hdl: The reason I search for you or paul is that this is not a problem in MARC 21 because there is an indicator position setting which characters from the title should not be used for sorting.  Yet I find nothing similar for UNIMARC.  I had hoped that you would know what the standard sorting practise not followed by Koha yet might be.
09:44 hdl Sorry.
09:45 hdl I don't know how it is managed.
09:45 hdl Each library has its parctise.
09:45 hdl s/parctise/practise/
09:46 hdl putting leading article behind between squared brackets.
09:46 thd hdl: There should be standards :)  paul posed a related question to koha-devel for Arabic.
09:47 thd hdl: Is that a French bibliographic rules standard?
09:48 hdl But it is done at the BNF
09:49 thd hdl: I assume they follow whatever standard there is :)
09:52 thd hdl: Do you know what paul meant about Arabic usage in his message to koha-devel.  It does not seem to be a question of script directionality.
09:52 paul thd, i'm here
09:53 paul it's not a question of directionality
09:53 paul let me write some english words in "arabic" syntax :
09:53 paul "this is samplea"
09:53 paul "what do youmean" ?
09:53 paul "i'm tall mana"
09:54 paul do you understand now ?
09:54 thd paul: So what did you mean about stop words in Arabic?  Did you mean leading articles?
09:54 paul I was wondering if zebra can handle such constructions
09:54 paul yes.
09:55 thd paul: Did you mean to close the space between the word and the article in your examples?
09:55 paul this is an english example.
09:56 paul if I understand well what 'ive been told, there are more complex questions.
09:56 paul because, sometimes "a" at the end of a word is important ("a" english example as usual)
09:58 thd paul: I see now this is for every article throughout the text not just the leading article that I had been asking hdl about.
09:59 thd paul: Are you certain that this is not related to script directionality?
10:00 thd paul: What software was being used for encoding where you were?
10:02 thd paul: One problem with Arabic, Hebrew, and related languages, none of which I can read, is that they have a distinction between logical character ordering for encoding and readable character ordering for display.
10:03 thd paul: This has to be managed by software.
10:05 thd paul: What I imagine that you want to ask is how can Arabic queries be correctly handled so that they retrieve the proper results as those results are encoded.
10:09 thd paul: Is your question not equivalent to French conversion from 8859 in the user's browser to UTF-8 for the database and then back to 8859 for display?  Directionality in Arabic is merely an additional complexity with which a complete query and display conversion has to work.
10:11 thd paul: What software were they using to manage Arabic input and display?
10:13 paul thd : my contact uses winISIS, that has an arab version.
10:14 thd paul: I have offered to fix these character set issues in Koha for some major languages and character sets.  I would at least like to know how to think about the problem for Koha.
10:14 thd paul: Is this the UNESCO software?
10:14 paul yep
10:16 thd paul: Does the software display correctly for them under Windows?
10:16 paul it seems
10:17 thd paul: Then, what circumstance lead you to notice the article ordering problem?
10:21 thd paul: Do you know if they using Unicode or 8859-6 for Arabic WinISIS?
10:29 thd paul: I am downloading the manual for Arabic ISIS now.  However, if the manual is in Arabic I will not be able to read it.
10:29 thd :)
10:32 thd paul: This question is important.  If Arabic WinISIS worked fine for them as you had said, what circumstance lead you to notice the article ordering problem?
10:33 paul thd : i have no idea at all. I was just asking a question to indexdata after a question a tunisian asked me last week.
10:33 paul Otherwise, i don't nothing with arab ;-)
10:38 thd paul: Your question might be rephrased in relation to language character ordering rules.  However, I expect that is something that the application software, namely Koha, would have to solve for converting queries and cataloguing data back and forth between display forms, editing forms, and storage encoding forms.
10:40 thd paul: There is software that addresses these issues for some contexts.  Yudit is an example for Arabic, Hebrew, and related languages.

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