| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 12:09 |
|
owen |
Oh, it looks like deleting members is broken altogether! |
| 12:09 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 12:10 |
|
kados |
owen: is this in production? or rel_2_2? |
| 12:10 |
|
owen |
Well, I was wondering why the deletedborrowers table on production was empty, so I was checking things out on rel_2_2. |
| 12:10 |
|
owen |
Even in the default template, member deletions don't seem to work |
| 12:11 |
|
kados |
well that seems like a problem to me ;-) |
| 12:11 |
|
owen |
We delete patron records pretty rarely, so I'm not surprised no one has noticed. |
| 12:12 |
|
kados |
we need some kind of QA evaluation process to check for broken functions |
| 14:00 |
|
kados |
T-Minus 1 hour to Website / Interface Design Meeting |
| 14:00 |
|
kados |
Meeting Agenda Posted at : http://tinyurl.com/d7de3 |
| 14:47 |
|
kados |
T-Minus 15 Minutes to Website / Interface Design Meeting |
| 14:57 |
|
kados |
T-Minus 3 Minutes to Website / Interface Design Meeting |
| 14:58 |
|
indradg |
hi all |
| 15:00 |
|
kados |
OK ... So Welcome to the Third Website / Interface Design Meeting |
| 15:00 |
|
kados |
Roll Call ... Who's here |
| 15:01 |
|
owen |
We'd better wait to see if at least shaun and russ show up |
| 15:01 |
|
owen |
(given the agenda) |
| 15:01 |
|
kados |
so we're missing rach, russ, and shaun |
| 15:01 |
|
kados |
yea |
| 15:02 |
|
kados |
welcome russ ;-) |
| 15:02 |
|
russ |
hi |
| 15:03 |
|
kados |
still waiting for Shaun |
| 15:03 |
|
kados |
russ: have you spoken to him lately? |
| 15:03 |
|
russ |
yes spoke to him tuesday night NZ time |
| 15:04 |
|
kados |
russ: was he planning to be here do you know? |
| 15:04 |
|
russ |
but not since then |
| 15:04 |
|
russ |
yep |
| 15:05 |
|
russ |
i have a link to a concept he has done if he doesnt show |
| 15:05 |
|
kados |
ok |
| 15:05 |
|
kados |
we'll wait a couple more minutes |
| 15:05 |
|
russ |
cool |
| 15:07 |
|
shaun |
whoo, sorry i'm late |
| 15:07 |
|
russ |
hi shaun |
| 15:08 |
|
kados |
glad you made it shaun |
| 15:08 |
|
kados |
ok that's quorum |
| 15:08 |
|
kados |
so : Agenda: http://tinyurl.com/d7de3 |
| 15:08 |
|
kados |
anyone have anything to add? |
| 15:09 |
|
russ |
no sounds good to me - short agenda is good - means we might actually get to talk about everything :-) |
| 15:09 |
|
kados |
:-) |
| 15:09 |
|
kados |
ok so first item |
| 15:09 |
|
kados |
Website Preview |
| 15:09 |
|
kados |
who's got a link? |
| 15:09 |
|
shaun |
i would like to discuss something russ and i were discussing outside of #koha, the idea of humans showing the software and something which i can't remember atm (?), that's fine otherwise |
| 15:10 |
|
shaun |
http://dev.shaunevans.co.uk/koha/kohaconcept.png (please be nice, residential broadband and all that |
| 15:10 |
|
kados |
shaun: ok ... we can cover that |
| 15:11 |
|
kados |
so I assume the ?FAQ links will become the navbar? |
| 15:11 |
|
russ |
shaun - do you want to run through the design like you did with me |
| 15:11 |
|
shaun |
kados: yep, but i need to discuss with you what the links will actually be |
| 15:12 |
|
kados |
shaun: ok ... I think we had a wireframe for that |
| 15:12 |
|
shaun |
yes please russ, and i will add anything that i have thought of since |
| 15:12 |
|
kados |
russ: is that right? |
| 15:13 |
|
kados |
I like the case study box ... it could even rotate |
| 15:13 |
|
kados |
and we could let folks submit case studies |
| 15:14 |
|
indradg |
sounds good |
| 15:14 |
|
russ |
yep |
| 15:15 |
|
russ |
so the links across the top (from the site map) |
| 15:15 |
|
russ |
will be - About Koha - Showcase - Download Koha - Support - Community |
| 15:16 |
|
thd |
'community links' understates the importance of documentation, etc. links |
| 15:16 |
|
russ |
http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz[…]edev/sitemap.html |
| 15:17 |
|
russ |
thd - the purpose of that area of the page is to bring to the front some links that would otherwise be buried deep in the site |
| 15:17 |
|
russ |
so maybe it needs another name? |
| 15:17 |
|
shaun |
shortcuts? |
| 15:17 |
|
kados |
I like shortcuts |
| 15:17 |
|
thd |
the name was what I was questioning |
| 15:18 |
|
shaun |
or maybe "quick links"? |
| 15:18 |
|
kados |
yep ... also good |
| 15:18 |
|
owen |
Quick Links is a more commonly used term in web sites, I think |
| 15:18 |
|
kados |
it should be 'Koha Sourceforge Homepage' I think |
| 15:18 |
|
owen |
I agree |
| 15:18 |
|
shaun |
kados: yep, good point |
| 15:19 |
|
russ |
i like Quick Links as well |
| 15:19 |
|
thd |
or savanah |
| 15:19 |
|
kados |
and instead of 'IRC Information' we should have a java client that lets them connect to IRC immediately and talk to someone |
| 15:19 |
|
russ |
shaun - i have a comment from rachel about the green used in the top banner |
| 15:19 |
|
kados |
thd: right ;-) |
| 15:19 |
|
shaun |
what does she say? |
| 15:20 |
|
shaun |
kados: how about ajax? |
| 15:20 |
|
russ |
it seems a bit light - could do with more emerald (her words) |
| 15:20 |
|
russ |
where did you get the green from ? |
| 15:20 |
|
kados |
russ: what about the link green? |
| 15:20 |
|
shaun |
ok - i will experiment; that green was a colourwheeled version of the blue below it, which i'm particularly fond of |
| 15:21 |
|
russ |
right |
| 15:21 |
|
kados |
my vote is that I like the greens ;-) |
| 15:21 |
|
russ |
i think the green is more important than the blue |
| 15:21 |
|
thd |
emarald is not an ugly browser safe colour :) |
| 15:21 |
|
owen |
The grey on green doesn't pop very well |
| 15:21 |
|
russ |
it is a bit insipid |
| 15:22 |
|
shaun |
owen: on the faq buttons? |
| 15:22 |
|
owen |
shaun: and the logo too |
| 15:22 |
|
thd |
this green is better |
| 15:22 |
|
shaun |
i found the green on the current site a bit *too* bold |
| 15:23 |
|
russ |
at the moment koha 2.2 seems to be popping out to me more than the koha logo |
| 15:23 |
|
kados |
yep |
| 15:23 |
|
thd |
contrast |
| 15:24 |
|
shaun |
if i make the koha v.2.2 a bit more blue and the 0 koha above a bit more white... |
| 15:24 |
|
russ |
shaun - back on the green - i think it could be a touch darker/bluer |
| 15:24 |
|
thd |
more emerald :) |
| 15:25 |
|
russ |
:-) |
| 15:25 |
|
shaun |
ok, i will experiment, that green was a bit arbitrary but i liked it and so kept with it for just that concept |
| 15:25 |
|
shaun |
kados: http://cgiirc.sourceforge.net/ |
| 15:25 |
|
thd |
sea like |
| 15:26 |
|
kados |
shaun: exactly |
| 15:27 |
|
russ |
shaun - i ask rosalie at hlt for some photos - but she didnt really have much |
| 15:27 |
|
russ |
ideally we would like a photo to go into the 3 row where it says |
| 15:27 |
|
shaun |
i think now would be a good time to get onto the topic i mentioned above: using images of people to advertise the product |
| 15:27 |
|
russ |
yep cool |
| 15:28 |
|
shaun |
screenshots are good, but more impressive imo is images of librarians using the product, demonstrating efficiency and usability |
| 15:29 |
|
kados |
shaun: what do you think of the liblime site? |
| 15:29 |
|
thd |
Where are the HDL publicity photos? |
| 15:29 |
|
kados |
shaun: is that what you had in mind? or is it too abstract? |
| 15:29 |
|
owen |
Two different issues, really. Screenshots are good for people who are thinking of downloading. Photos are good for people are thinking of having their sysadmins download :) Photos give good feelings to decision-makers. |
| 15:30 |
|
kados |
owen: good point owen |
| 15:30 |
|
owen |
I think mostly photos give a sense to customers that you're the real deal if you can put some good photos on your site |
| 15:30 |
|
russ |
yep - and as discussed earlier - this new site should really appeal to the decision makers |
| 15:30 |
|
kados |
right |
| 15:31 |
|
russ |
i agree owen - goes to credibility |
| 15:31 |
|
shaun |
the librarian i'm implementing for wanted to see that this thing is actually being used |
| 15:31 |
|
kados |
so what kinds of photos are we talking about for the home page? |
| 15:31 |
|
thd |
I like closely cropped so that you can see something happening |
| 15:31 |
|
thd |
look at the last photo at http://www.agogme.com |
| 15:31 |
|
shaun |
also makes the site look a bit more business-like ;-) |
| 15:33 |
|
russ |
thd - are you refering to the photo of the young girl using the computer? |
| 15:33 |
|
thd |
russ: yes |
| 15:33 |
|
owen |
or the guys building a castle ;) |
| 15:33 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 15:33 |
|
shaun |
hah |
| 15:34 |
|
thd |
the building a castle is just a detail too :) |
| 15:34 |
|
thd |
not a photo though |
| 15:35 |
|
shaun |
the ideal thing would be some children using the opac with the koha logo clearly in view, or perhaps a librarian loaning out some books to a patron - a sense of community |
| 15:35 |
|
kados |
so ... shaun are you suggesting we find photos of actual kohaites or just nab professional photos from cheap sources like dreamstime.com? |
| 15:35 |
|
russ |
katipo has a store of photos that can be used |
| 15:35 |
|
russ |
for free |
| 15:36 |
|
thd |
picturing humans and something noticeable on the screen at the same time is very difficult |
| 15:36 |
|
russ |
http://www.sunflowerimages.co.nz/search.html |
| 15:36 |
|
russ |
if that helps |
| 15:36 |
|
kados |
I agree ... LibLime tried to capture that and gave up |
| 15:37 |
|
russ |
i think happy smiley people is more important than trying to get a koha logo showing up on screen |
| 15:37 |
|
russ |
the image of the screen is going to be so small |
| 15:37 |
|
russ |
you wont see any detail |
| 15:37 |
|
shaun |
maybe then the human image, with the koha logo in the bottom right hand corner of the image itself, so "you know it's koha" |
| 15:37 |
|
thd |
exactly |
| 15:37 |
|
russ |
what would be nice is for the photo to be taken at a library who uses koha |
| 15:37 |
|
russ |
rather than resorting to stock photos |
| 15:38 |
|
thd |
so where are the HLT publicity snaps? |
| 15:38 |
|
kados |
russ: that would be nice ... but would be hard to pull off I think |
| 15:38 |
|
russ |
anyone at nelsonville (or elsewhere) want to be world famous |
| 15:38 |
|
kados |
russ: i doubt it ;-) |
| 15:39 |
|
russ |
i am sure rosalie will be fine with us using any of the photos on her site - http://www.library.org.nz/cgi-[…]koha/opac-main.pl |
| 15:39 |
|
russ |
only thing is none of them are quite right |
| 15:40 |
|
kados |
http://www.dreamstime.com/woma[…]puter-image178708 |
| 15:40 |
|
russ |
i get a 404 at that link |
| 15:40 |
|
kados |
weird |
| 15:40 |
|
thd |
where are the librry.org photos |
| 15:42 |
|
russ |
they have them dotted around their site - ie each section has a hero pic at the top of the page - http://www.library.org.nz/teens-zone/ |
| 15:42 |
|
russ |
hmm actually if i remember rightly that photo is of that couple using a computer, but the computer has been cropped out |
| 15:42 |
|
russ |
i'll try and track that one down |
| 15:42 |
|
thd |
I spent days searching stock photos and otherwise before finding a suitably engaging photo. |
| 15:43 |
|
russ |
right so before we spend too long on this |
| 15:43 |
|
thd |
People often look bored or ditracted in front of a screen, even in posed photos. |
| 15:44 |
|
russ |
we think it is a good idea to have a photo of not bored people ? and shaun and i will try and track one down to insert in there |
| 15:44 |
|
kados |
cool |
| 15:44 |
|
kados |
ok ... so next item ;-) |
| 15:44 |
|
kados |
call for content writers |
| 15:44 |
|
russ |
just wanted to say well done to shaun |
| 15:44 |
|
russ |
i thing it is looking good so far |
| 15:44 |
|
kados |
ditto ... thanks for your work shaun |
| 15:45 |
|
shaun |
sorry to interrupt the moving on - all the links are surfacing now: |
| 15:45 |
|
shaun |
http://www.austinseminary.edu/[…]rary/computer.jpg |
| 15:45 |
|
russ |
now she does look bored even angry at the puter |
| 15:45 |
|
russ |
:-) |
| 15:45 |
|
rach |
she doesn't look like she is having a good time tho :-) |
| 15:45 |
|
shaun |
but if she did... that would be ideal, right? |
| 15:46 |
|
thd |
not the right expression certainly :) |
| 15:46 |
|
russ |
yep that type of thing |
| 15:47 |
|
shaun |
we're certainly not going to get anything with the right mood from stock photos, so if you visit your local library.... :-) |
| 15:47 |
|
owen |
The right photo will be sharper, more dynamic, and with a happier subject |
| 15:47 |
|
kados |
shaun: I'm not sure about that ... there are some surprising finds in stock photo databases |
| 15:48 |
|
thd |
kados: Do you have no image of a proud patron charging out a stack taller than he can lift with the NPL self checkout system/ |
| 15:48 |
|
kados |
but whatever ... you guys can find some good photos and we can discuss it next time |
| 15:48 |
|
kados |
thd: no ;-) |
| 15:48 |
|
kados |
so ... Call for Content Writers |
| 15:48 |
|
russ |
yes content |
| 15:48 |
|
kados |
russ: your topic I believe |
| 15:48 |
|
kados |
russ: do you want to assign sections or how do you want to do it? |
| 15:49 |
|
russ |
well first up do we have volunteers to write content? |
| 15:49 |
|
thd |
I would be pleased to volunteer for FAQ and Features |
| 15:49 |
|
kados |
I'll volunteer to write |
| 15:50 |
|
russ |
thd and kados will be busy :-) |
| 15:50 |
|
russ |
ok well what i have done |
| 15:50 |
|
shaun |
i would be happy to do the 'apology for open source' bit, and i will fill in on any low-content pages that are essential to the site, i.e. the homepage, downloads etc |
| 15:50 |
|
russ |
http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz[…]edev/sitemap.html |
| 15:50 |
|
thd |
not apology of course :) |
| 15:51 |
|
russ |
is for each page in the site made a "meta" page |
| 15:51 |
|
shaun |
it seems that way in way too many proposals i have seen though... |
| 15:51 |
|
russ |
so |
| 15:51 |
|
russ |
http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz[…]t/about-koha.html |
| 15:52 |
|
russ |
so title, breadcrumb and a short description of the type of content to go on the page |
| 15:52 |
|
russ |
i have also given pages a priority |
| 15:52 |
|
russ |
as to the ones i think a mandatory (that we cant do with out) |
| 15:52 |
|
russ |
and others that can wait if need be |
| 15:52 |
|
kados |
right ... looks good |
| 15:52 |
|
shaun |
russ: while on this, i don't really think news should be in About Koha |
| 15:52 |
|
russ |
so i would like writers to sound on the mandatory pages |
| 15:53 |
|
kados |
I also like the writer/editor/approver |
| 15:53 |
|
kados |
shaun: where do you think it should go? |
| 15:53 |
|
russ |
irma (from sydney) has volunteered to do editing - so that there is continuity of style - at least for the first cut of the site |
| 15:54 |
|
shaun |
as one of the main levels, but not as part of the main navigation |
| 15:54 |
|
kados |
that's right ... great! |
| 15:54 |
|
russ |
main level but not in the main nav? |
| 15:54 |
|
thd |
what is the spelling convention, I have an email on koha-devel about that? |
| 15:55 |
|
kados |
thd: British English |
| 15:55 |
|
thd |
:) |
| 15:55 |
|
russ |
nice decision kados :-) |
| 15:55 |
|
shaun |
russ: i was thinking about putting something like that up in the top-left corner |
| 15:56 |
|
russ |
ah right so in a an aux nav type of thing |
| 15:56 |
|
shaun |
yeh |
| 15:56 |
|
thd |
yes I had referred to that as intrnational English |
| 15:57 |
|
russ |
ok shaun we can address the news thing a little bit later |
| 15:57 |
|
russ |
but re content |
| 15:57 |
|
kados |
thd has volunteered to write Features and FAQ |
| 15:57 |
|
russ |
cool |
| 15:57 |
|
shaun |
sorry to distract - i'll take support/contributing |
| 15:58 |
|
kados |
I'd be happy to take 'Koha Team', History, Support, Awards |
| 15:58 |
|
kados |
and 'Pay for Support' |
| 15:59 |
|
shaun |
kados: i see a pattern there :p |
| 15:59 |
|
kados |
shaun: :-) |
| 15:59 |
|
thd |
kados: Pay for Installation, Support, and Development. |
| 15:59 |
|
russ |
ok just checking against any missing mandatory pages |
| 15:59 |
|
russ |
i'll do the showcase section |
| 16:00 |
|
shaun |
somebody needs to do testimonials and case studies, but that's more of a collection than a composition task |
| 16:00 |
|
kados |
russ: is 'Purchase' better than 'Pay for' |
| 16:00 |
|
russ |
kados - yes |
| 16:00 |
|
kados |
russ: it might also be good to have a 'Sponsor Features' section |
| 16:00 |
|
kados |
or 'Sponsorship Opportunities' |
| 16:00 |
|
shaun |
kados: yes ^ - i got a weird look from the librarian over that |
| 16:01 |
|
thd |
kados: the and development meant sponsor features. |
| 16:01 |
|
rach |
how about "Wish List" |
| 16:01 |
|
kados |
thd: ? |
| 16:01 |
|
rach |
as a more enticing title, and then explain the sponsorhip thing |
| 16:02 |
|
kados |
rach: hmmm ... that doesn't sound professional to my American ears |
| 16:02 |
|
shaun |
rach: how about making it part of a contribution section spanning a few pages? |
| 16:02 |
|
thd |
kados: Pay for Installation, Support, 'and Development'. |
| 16:02 |
|
rach |
or New Features? Upcomming Features? |
| 16:02 |
|
thd |
s/Pay/Purchase/ |
| 16:02 |
|
kados |
well ... we have a 'under development' section |
| 16:02 |
|
rach |
paying for development isn't necessarily the same thing |
| 16:02 |
|
kados |
so we don't want to replicate that |
| 16:03 |
|
rach |
I'm thinking things we'd like to do, but would like a sponsor for - wether that be people to pay, or someone to champion/explain how it should work |
| 16:03 |
|
kados |
I've been using the word 'sponsorship' lately with clients and they seem to like it ... but that's just US clients |
| 16:03 |
|
rach |
under development sounds like things that have got a sponsor already... |
| 16:03 |
|
rach |
and are being worked on |
| 16:03 |
|
kados |
rach: right |
| 16:04 |
|
thd |
kados: Purchase for Installation, Support, and Custom Development. Something shorter is needed though for a brief heading. |
| 16:04 |
|
kados |
thd: Purchase Support ;-) |
| 16:04 |
|
rach |
sponsor is ok if people get it |
| 16:05 |
|
kados |
rach: right ... does it sound ok to you? |
| 16:05 |
|
rach |
it has some connotation of not really getting anything :-) |
| 16:06 |
|
kados |
rach: hehe |
| 16:06 |
|
kados |
rach: right ... I get that a bit too ... |
| 16:06 |
|
rach |
so if you sponsor things here, it's like a charity and you might get your logo on the programme |
| 16:06 |
|
thd |
kados: Purchase Support & Custom Development |
| 16:06 |
|
kados |
rach: maybe there's a better word |
| 16:06 |
|
rach |
rather than that we want someone who really wants this thing |
| 16:06 |
|
thd |
kados: Support & Custom Development Options |
| 16:06 |
|
rach |
what about it thd |
| 16:06 |
|
rach |
custom development isn't what I mean either |
| 16:07 |
|
rach |
custom development is doing something special for a particular library |
| 16:07 |
|
rach |
which is cool, but doesn't cover some of our "wish" things like say other language translations |
| 16:08 |
|
kados |
right |
| 16:08 |
|
kados |
ok ... well we can think about it ... |
| 16:08 |
|
rach |
yep |
| 16:09 |
|
shaun |
"invest in koha" :p .... patronise? subsidise? |
| 16:09 |
|
thd |
rach: every feature starts as custom development to fill a partiular need |
| 16:09 |
|
kados |
russ: any more critical pages that need writers? |
| 16:10 |
|
thd |
shaun: I like invest in X. |
| 16:10 |
|
rach |
not in the way that implies I think - we put out our "wish list" of things we'd like to see in Koha, and libraries/developers picked up on the ones that interested them - that's a different concept to saying "we'll customise it for you" |
| 16:10 |
|
rach |
it |
| 16:10 |
|
russ |
no i think we are covered |
| 16:10 |
|
russ |
i'll sort the community one out |
| 16:10 |
|
kados |
hone call |
| 16:10 |
|
rach |
it's more proactive to say what you're wanting someone to sponsor your for |
| 16:11 |
|
russ |
i'll do an email with the assignments and up date those pages on my site |
| 16:11 |
|
kados |
phone call |
| 16:11 |
|
thd |
rach: you mean a list of features waiting for sponsorship |
| 16:11 |
|
rach |
yep |
| 16:12 |
|
rach |
and sponsorship doesn't necesarily mean money |
| 16:12 |
|
thd |
of course |
| 16:13 |
|
shaun |
beer, silly... hah |
| 16:13 |
|
owen |
Duh! |
| 16:13 |
|
russ |
i'll also include how i would like the content sent through |
| 16:13 |
|
russ |
in terms of deadlines for writing content |
| 16:14 |
|
russ |
is sunday 21st too soon to recieve all first drafts? |
| 16:14 |
|
russ |
gives us a week and a half |
| 16:15 |
|
thd |
not if I can get the feature list Kados completed for a forthcoming article. |
| 16:15 |
|
shaun |
i think so... it's my summer holiday, so i'm hoping to get exposed to natural light at some point, how about the week after? |
| 16:15 |
|
russ |
i would dearly like the new site to be live before 11sept |
| 16:16 |
|
russ |
we have the new zealand libraries conference |
| 16:16 |
|
thd |
shaun: natural light only causes skin cancer :) |
| 16:16 |
|
russ |
do you get sunlight in the uk ? :-) |
| 16:16 |
|
shaun |
i'm aiming for early september too, school term starts and i want to impress the librarian... and my classmates, for that matter.... |
| 16:17 |
|
russ |
cos i am thinking that we will need to give irma at least 10 days to proof |
| 16:17 |
|
russ |
and then it all needs to be loaded in and approved |
| 16:17 |
|
russ |
so it is getting tight |
| 16:17 |
|
shaun |
russ: enough to make my neck sting for days when somebody touches it |
| 16:18 |
|
owen |
Remember what Kurt Vonnegut always says, "Wear sunscreen" |
| 16:18 |
|
russ |
remeber it is the web, and we can always add to the content we have later |
| 16:19 |
|
russ |
shaun - if writing content is going to take away from your design time |
| 16:19 |
|
russ |
i think it best you concentrate on design |
| 16:19 |
|
thd |
russ: nice about that aspect :) |
| 16:19 |
|
russ |
as we will need some inside pages to go with this homepage |
| 16:20 |
|
russ |
and i think the community portal page |
| 16:20 |
|
russ |
will look more like a secondary homepage than an inside page |
| 16:20 |
|
russ |
so that will need some thought as well |
| 16:20 |
|
shaun |
i've already sorted the inside pages, but they're not particularly impressive in terms of design when placed next to the hp |
| 16:20 |
|
russ |
i will get my wireframe ideas up soon |
| 16:21 |
|
thd |
Is there a design default template for page content? |
| 16:21 |
|
thd |
styalistically, etc. |
| 16:21 |
|
shaun |
thd: sorry, i only have the outline version, the concept is in progress atm |
| 16:23 |
|
russ |
shaun - are you writing the code at the same time as doing these designs? |
| 16:23 |
|
shaun |
nope |
| 16:23 |
|
russ |
cool |
| 16:24 |
|
russ |
along with the writing assignments i will get a new draft schedule up |
| 16:24 |
|
thd |
who is doing documentation? |
| 16:24 |
|
russ |
thd ? |
| 16:24 |
|
shaun |
shedges at www.kohadocs.org, afaik |
| 16:25 |
|
russ |
apologies everyone - but i have another meeting that i need to go to |
| 16:25 |
|
thd |
russ: I mean the documentation content element or is that just a direct link? |
| 16:25 |
|
russ |
direct link |
| 16:25 |
|
russ |
to kohadocs |
| 16:27 |
|
russ |
i will do an email to the dev list about the content and with a new schedule |
| 16:27 |
|
russ |
shaun there will be an email waiting for you in the morning with some stuff about the inside pages |
| 16:28 |
|
russ |
bye all |
| 16:28 |
|
shaun |
russ: ok, thank you |
| 16:28 |
|
shaun |
russ: bye |
| 16:28 |
|
thd |
russ: bye |
| 16:29 |
|
kados |
sorry ... |
| 16:29 |
|
thd |
Is there a good tutorial for your CMS? |
| 16:30 |
|
kados |
sorry about that ... phone call and then my IRC crashed |
| 16:30 |
|
shaun |
i'm not sure about opencms... never used it, probably never will |
| 16:32 |
|
thd |
rach: you use it. Do you have a pointer to brief tutorial? |
| 16:32 |
|
kados |
so our deadline is in Sept ... right? |
| 16:32 |
|
kados |
we've got writing assignments |
| 16:32 |
|
kados |
only thing left on the agenda is the programmer's templates ... |
| 16:32 |
|
kados |
owen: how's that coming? |
| 16:33 |
|
owen |
Pretty well. |
| 16:33 |
|
owen |
The only things left to do are some sections that I'm not very familiar with: serials and authorities |
| 16:33 |
|
kados |
great |
| 16:33 |
|
owen |
Then I'll need to do another synch with the default template to catch up |
| 16:33 |
|
thd |
kados: Sept. is an amorphous deadline considering the coordination required. |
| 16:34 |
|
kados |
thd: well ... let's see how it goes ;-) |
| 16:34 |
|
owen |
Right now I've just been comitting to HEAD. I don't know how all the programmers feel about switching over to these right away. |
| 16:34 |
|
kados |
thd: I'll have my content written before that ;-) |
| 16:34 |
|
shaun |
my deadline for purely design will be 01/09 - speaking of which: would owen, slef or another designer be able to check over my coding when it's going? |
| 16:34 |
|
kados |
owen: right ... I'd say that's best |
| 16:34 |
|
kados |
shaun: I'd like to look ;-) |
| 16:35 |
|
thd |
shaun: what aspect of your coding? |
| 16:36 |
|
shaun |
excellent, just to make sure it's all robust, i am known to miss things that the w3c thingy hasn't caught either |
| 16:36 |
|
shaun |
xhtml and css, plus how it all complies to WCAG |
| 16:38 |
|
thd |
shaun: I have experience forcing xhtml compliance for some very old browsers. |
| 16:38 |
|
rach |
sorry someone asked about opencms? I've had a play but wouldn't say I'd used it |
| 16:38 |
|
shaun |
russ says it's a requirement from the katipo end; opencms over mambo |
| 16:40 |
|
rach |
yep - do I need to explain that again? |
| 16:40 |
|
shaun |
i probably missed it the first time, sorry |
| 16:41 |
|
rach |
ok - we don't have anything particularly against mambo, I'm sure it's a fine piece of software, but we've identified open CMS as a good candidate for doing large info websites - which is something we're into, and wanting to find a good product for |
| 16:41 |
|
rach |
we don |
| 16:41 |
|
rach |
so what we want to *get* out of this project other than a fab new koha site |
| 16:42 |
|
rach |
is something we can do a proper test of open cms with |
| 16:42 |
|
rach |
if it's shite of course we'll dump it :-) |
| 16:43 |
|
thd |
rach: I had assumed that you had already proved its merit :) |
| 16:43 |
|
shaun |
same here :) |
| 16:43 |
|
rach |
we've tested it not in real life - and think it's good |
| 16:43 |
|
rach |
but we need a real site, with lots of contributers to really put it through it's paces |
| 16:44 |
|
rach |
it's pretty hard to test a cms when the site isn't "real" for want of a better way of putting it |
| 16:44 |
|
chris |
its in use in huge organisations all over the place so we arent worried about it being up to the job |
| 16:44 |
|
chris |
more "do we really like it" |
| 16:44 |
|
chris |
and you cant learn that without using it |
| 16:44 |
|
rach |
yep |
| 16:45 |
|
chris |
and with the pain i went thru to install java sdk, and tomcat to get it running |
| 16:45 |
|
chris |
you better like it :-) |
| 16:45 |
|
shaun |
kados and i have plenty of mambo running big stuff - and i've got this thing against java as well... grr... |
| 16:45 |
|
rach |
right - that's why mambo is less interesting |
| 16:46 |
|
chris |
sure we have played with mambo before |
| 16:46 |
|
thd |
chris: you chose the Java CMS :) |
| 16:46 |
|
rach |
and we might have a different definition of "big" sites? |
| 16:46 |
|
shaun |
quite probably... kados, what's big? :-) |
| 16:46 |
|
rach |
we're looking at thousands of pages, up to 50 editors etc |
| 16:48 |
|
chris |
and thats just one of them |
| 16:48 |
|
rach |
if it's rubbish we'll change it, all we're wanting is that we give it a go see if it's good |
| 16:48 |
|
rach |
you never know you might love it :-) |
| 16:49 |
|
shaun |
how does it work for dynamic content like blogs and news? |
| 16:50 |
|
thd |
rach: very big might be 10s of thousands of editors and tens of millions of pages. I know a CMS that does that but many do not like its resource consumption for that scale. |
| 16:50 |
|
rach |
sure |
| 16:51 |
|
rach |
http://www.opencms.org/opencms/en/ |
| 16:53 |
|
rach |
all their reference sites have news etc, so I'm pretty sure it has all that |
| 16:53 |
|
shaun |
kados: this is breaking up a bit, so how about closing the meeting or going back to one of the flagged topics? |
| 16:53 |
|
rach |
http://www.opencms.org/opencms[…]pport/tour/5.html |
| 16:53 |
|
rach |
sorry I thought it had closed |
| 16:54 |
|
rach |
I see russ is runing off to an in person meeting |
| 16:54 |
|
thd |
I am still uncler about the status of programmer templates. |
| 16:54 |
|
thd |
What is the name of that template set? |
| 16:55 |
|
shaun |
i don't understand what's happening with templates at all atm - including the default ones in 2.4 |
| 16:55 |
|
owen |
'prog', and it's only in HEAD |
| 16:55 |
|
thd |
I have not looked for them in CVS. |
| 16:55 |
|
thd |
owen: Would these be the templates where nothing is ever broken :) |
| 16:56 |
|
owen |
well, right now they're where everything is always broken |
| 16:56 |
|
shaun |
heh |
| 16:56 |
|
owen |
Paul's been roughing up the sandbox a bit ;) |
| 16:56 |
|
thd |
owen: what is the prognosis for usability |
| 16:57 |
|
owen |
the programmer's templates are not designed for usability |
| 16:57 |
|
owen |
They're designed for programmers and template-writers only |
| 16:58 |
|
thd |
owen: sorry, poorly worded. Do they expose all variables and put them some place now? |
| 16:58 |
|
owen |
That's part of the goal |
| 16:58 |
|
owen |
But probably not achieved in this first draft |
| 16:59 |
|
thd |
owen: I am assuming I understand their purpose, maybe I am missing something. |
| 16:59 |
|
thd |
owen: what is(are) the other part(s) of the goal? |
| 17:00 |
|
rach |
and i thought plainer templates would be easier to work with - particularly for testing and adding in new stuff |
| 17:00 |
|
owen |
the primary goal of the programmer's templates is to provide the programmers a bare-bones framework with which to add and modify features |
| 17:00 |
|
owen |
The stripped-down nature of the templates will hopefully make it easier for custom template-writers to discern what is new functionality when updating their templates |
| 17:01 |
|
thd |
owen: which requires exposing all variables, does it not? |
| 17:01 |
|
owen |
With no layout or styling, the programmer templates can be a blank canvas for new templates |
| 17:02 |
|
owen |
thd: I said that. I only qualified it by saying that that goal has probably not been fully achieved in this first draft |
| 17:02 |
|
slef |
timezones, life |
| 17:03 |
|
owen |
Gotta run everyone! |
| 17:03 |
|
shaun |
owen: for when the designer has the mind power to go through hundreds of template files and add classes and semantics ;-) |
| 17:03 |
|
slef |
shaun: I'd like to look at it. |
| 17:03 |
|
shaun |
http://dev.shaunevans.co.uk/koha/kohaconcept.png - wdyt? |
| 17:04 |
|
slef |
shaun: I meant the end. Not mad about round-rects everywhere or "open source" but generally good. Looks like it will be "fun" to code to fit all window sizes and shapes. |
| 17:05 |
|
slef |
shaun: more power to your elbow. |
| 17:05 |
|
thd |
kados: what happened with your unexpected z39.50 results? |
| 17:06 |
|
slef |
Can it be called "Developer" rather than "koha Sourceforge homepage"? Sourceforge is someone else's brand name, not recognisable and not koha's homepage (and paul posted about moving). |
| 17:07 |
|
rach |
sorry 10am here, work calls |
| 17:08 |
|
shaun |
i would suggest "developer" is far too general, especially considering this is an open source project, and the sourceforge site is also currently used for downloads |
| 17:09 |
|
slef |
Maybe we need >1 links to things there? |
| 17:09 |
|
slef |
"download" has its own link anyway |
| 17:10 |
|
thd |
Is the developer wiki intended to be absorbed into the new koha.org? |
| 17:11 |
|
shaun |
i don't think so, looking at the difference in content structure |
| 17:12 |
|
thd |
I had thought that part of the motivation was to coordinate content struture in a unified way. |
| 17:14 |
|
thd |
shaun: thus making it easier to find things. |
| 17:16 |
|
rach |
our first priority was to get a good "sales tool" together |
| 17:17 |
|
shaun |
this is just my opinion, so feel free to steamroller it if you object to it: |
| 17:17 |
|
rach |
the portal is to link to all the other stuff |
| 17:17 |
|
shaun |
i think that a very large proportion of the wiki could be removed altogether, and made into the community/portal site |
| 17:18 |
|
shaun |
the doco parts of it could be moved over to www.kohadocs.org |
| 17:18 |
|
shaun |
and the links are on the homepage as "quick links" |
| 17:20 |
|
shaun |
really, i would suggest making a split between www.koha.org, the product, business, "community gateway" site; and the community/portal site, which is very much by developers, for developers or people very closely involved with the project |
| 17:23 |
|
thd |
shaun: There is certainly a content overlap between parts of the wiki and koha.org site map. Presently, the wiki is serving as a significant extension of the portal for essentially portal purposes such as direction to this channel. |
| 17:25 |
|
shaun |
direction to this channel itself is a bit of a grey area - it also comes under "free support" |
| 17:26 |
|
thd |
should be listed multiply of course. |
| 17:30 |
|
thd |
kados: are you still around? |
| 17:43 |
|
thd |
shaun: something left out of the spelling standard consideration is including important document terms and their spelling alternates in a meta keywords header. |
| 17:46 |
|
thd |
shaun: so US librarians searching for catalog etc. in Google can find the page where it is spelt catalogue. |
| 17:47 |
|
shaun |
yep, i've got that considered - i would like to see how opencms manages pages, because it might do generation of keywords, descriptions, rss links et a; |
| 17:49 |
|
rach |
back briefly |
| 17:50 |
|
rach |
just a bit of an odd note perhaps - I have a some ambivilance about pointing the general public to this chanel - and about giving the impression this is a 24hr helpdesk |
| 17:51 |
|
rach |
it really isn't a 24 hr help desk - unless we actually get a roster going or something, and for newbie questions the mailing list is a much better vehicle |
| 17:51 |
|
shaun |
i was thinking about that earlier - has it ever been considered to have more than one channel? |
| 17:51 |
|
rach |
IMO this is like where we "work" |
| 17:52 |
|
rach |
yep - we have had more chanels, we had a koha-support for a while, but it wasn't used |
| 17:52 |
|
shaun |
newbies are, in my experience, generally unwilling to send to mailing lists, i'm not sure why |
| 17:53 |
|
rach |
most of us here have jobs (or things to do for sig portions of the day :-) so I'm not sure that we could cope with a big influx of people |
| 17:53 |
|
rach |
yep - I get a lot of direct questions by mail, and if I can't answer them I direct them to the mailing list - or if they ask more than a couple of questions basically |
| 17:54 |
|
thd |
rach: If you had a big influx of people, that should cure itself. |
| 17:54 |
|
rach |
so having a clear "ask your questions here" e=mail addy is IMO better than getting people on the chanel |
| 17:54 |
|
rach |
well thd, you've been someone who's spending a good deal of time on the channel actually talking, but that's pretty unusual |
| 17:55 |
|
rach |
we'll just get the actual developers using another chanel I gues |
| 17:55 |
|
rach |
if you think of our big meetings, having more than about 6 people actually trying to converse is just a nightmare |
| 17:56 |
|
thd |
rach: I have tried to help some of the newest Koha experimenters as a very useful learning exercise myself. |
| 17:56 |
|
rach |
we have several hundred people on the mailing list, we wouldn't want them all to show up :-) |
| 17:56 |
|
rach |
absoloutely - I think we all do that |
| 17:57 |
|
rach |
I'm just cautioning against pushing IRC as *the* place to get help etc - which is why it isn't plastered all over the place now |
| 17:58 |
|
thd |
rach: The koha list seems to have fewer links to it than the IRC channel. |
| 17:59 |
|
rach |
on the koha site itself, the mailing list link is on every page |
| 17:59 |
|
rach |
once you get into the developer stuff on the wiki etc, I would imagine the IRC starts to pop up more? |
| 18:00 |
|
thd |
rach: I had gone to the sourceforge site more often so that directed me to the wiki, which looked more current than koha.org |
| 18:00 |
|
kados |
rach: I'd like to have a koha-lobby |
| 18:00 |
|
rach |
nice idea |
| 18:01 |
|
thd |
kados: what is the topic of koha-lobby? |
| 18:01 |
|
kados |
and a link from the main Koha page to a http://cgiirc.sourceforge.net/ IRC client |
| 18:01 |
|
rach |
we have one for our katipo chanel - so #katipo is invite only |
| 18:01 |
|
kados |
so they don't have to download anything ... they can just start talking |
| 18:01 |
|
rach |
(you might not want to go that far :-) |
| 18:02 |
|
thd |
kados: you mean #koha-lobby? |
| 18:02 |
|
kados |
thd: yep |
| 18:03 |
|
shaun |
and then i suppose the cgi-irc points at the lobby, not at #koha |
| 18:05 |
|
kados |
shaun: exactly |
| 18:05 |
|
thd |
rach: If you wish to discourage common user questions on #koha then you should post direction to #koha-lobby and I will try to be sure the FAQ is progressively more complete. |
| 18:06 |
|
thd |
Does opencms have a FAQ module? |
| 18:06 |
|
shaun |
thd: yes |
| 18:07 |
|
thd |
what prevents the FAQ module from being used as a spam board? |
| 18:08 |
|
shaun |
i reckon there will be a large number of people dropping by and then realising they didn't want to be there, and possibly newbies in need of a good LARTing or who just haven't read the site properly |
| 18:09 |
|
shaun |
it's read-only to all but the editor (or did i interpret the question wrong?) |
| 18:10 |
|
thd |
shaun: You had it right. I have seen FAQs that are also structured wikis. Spam has now become a problem for those. |
| 18:11 |
|
rach |
thd - I just don't want to loose the good working that we get done here in a barage of new people/questions etc, so your suggestions seem good to me |
| 18:12 |
|
shaun |
ah - so then they're "questions asked on the fly to annoy people" rather than "frequently asked questions"... |
| 18:12 |
|
rach |
:-) |
| 18:12 |
|
shaun |
would you log both channels? |
| 18:12 |
|
kados |
shaun: :-) |
| 18:13 |
|
kados |
rach: eating up your bandwidth, etc. ;-) |
| 18:13 |
|
rach |
well luckily irc isn't bandwidth intensive |
| 18:13 |
|
rach |
so not such a big issue |
| 18:13 |
|
thd |
If only there were 20 customers for you to have such a problem ;) |
| 18:14 |
|
rach |
I guess the difference between having like an "office" where you do work, which is what I think of #koha now |
| 18:14 |
|
rach |
and a help desk |
| 18:14 |
|
shaun |
how about a permanent topic then, like something seen on the big irc networks: "Koha Lobby: For support, ask away and please be patient for a reply | Please keep on topic" |
| 18:15 |
|
rach |
yep sounds fine - or if no ones here go join the mailing list and ask there :-) |
| 18:15 |
|
thd |
you could experiment with an answerbot. Do those ever work? |
| 18:15 |
|
kados |
shaun: I'd like to think of koha-lobby of a place where folks can just ask questions about Koha ... not really a 'support desk' ... more of a sales desk |
| 18:15 |
|
rach |
yeah we have one of those |
| 18:15 |
|
rach |
in #katipo |
| 18:16 |
|
thd |
rach: does it work well? |
| 18:16 |
|
rach |
they are quite good - you need to teach them the answers |
| 18:16 |
|
rach |
we use it mostly for phone numbers :-) |
| 18:16 |
|
rach |
and contacts |
| 18:16 |
|
kados |
it's in a directory somewhere around here |
| 18:16 |
|
rach |
so it's good at "who is kados?" |
| 18:16 |
|
shaun |
but surely it would be better to make those FAQs rather than making the answers? |
| 18:17 |
|
rach |
and it would answer "Kados is Josua from liblime contact on blah blah" |
| 18:17 |
|
rach |
being IRC needs to be a one sentance/line questions |
| 18:17 |
|
rach |
would be stylish to have the same q & a in both media |
| 18:18 |
|
rach |
so that whichever you were more comfortable with you could use |
| 18:18 |
|
rach |
and I would think you'd get more questions from IRC - so you might get them started from there, and then add them to the FAQ |
| 18:19 |
|
thd |
shaun: I guess that my open FAQ application idea is lacking something but where I have them they never look used except perhaps recently with spam from bots. |
| 18:19 |
|
shaun |
how about, for cgi-irc, we have an explanatory page before explaining some rules and the purpose of the channel? we can assume that most newbies will use that method rather than using a local chat client, so that targets the right people in the right way |
| 18:23 |
|
shaun |
i'm very interested to know what goes on in #katipo :-) |
| 18:24 |
|
rach |
we talk about work |
| 18:24 |
|
thd |
I actually failed to get the CGI-IRC application working on Safari, where it had opened by default. I guess that is Apples problem and mine to allow Apple to have dictated the default browser so poorly. |
| 18:24 |
|
shaun |
i mean... why you need an answerbot |
| 18:24 |
|
rach |
oh because it knows all our phone numbers :-) |
| 18:24 |
|
rach |
and all our client phone numbers |
| 18:25 |
|
rach |
and various other stuff - URLs for things etc |
| 18:25 |
|
shaun |
heh, the answerbot knows |
| 18:25 |
|
rach |
ah and it spells things for us |
| 18:25 |
|
rach |
and does maths |
| 18:25 |
|
shaun |
i want one |
| 18:26 |
|
rach |
we have 3 bots - ib (info bot), tb (time bot), marvin the door bot |
| 18:26 |
|
shaun |
what does marvin do? |
| 18:26 |
|
rach |
invites people in from the lobby |
| 18:27 |
|
shaun |
and tb? |
| 18:27 |
|
rach |
oh and ib keeps track of people |
| 18:27 |
|
rach |
so you can ask it where someone is, and it brings up when they last spoke, what they said etc |
| 18:27 |
|
rach |
um tb is a timebot, it logs the channel, so like logbot |
| 18:28 |
|
rach |
but also if you haven't said anything for a while, it asks you what you've been up to, and you can querry it later to help you fill in your timesheet |
| 18:29 |
|
rach |
is useful for freelancing - to keep track of your hours |
| 18:32 |
|
thd |
kohabot: where is kados? |
| 18:35 |
|
shaun |
they're both silent, so maybe that's trying to tell us something..... |
| 18:37 |
|
thd |
kohabot has been taking lessons from marvin the door bot |
| 18:38 |
|
rach |
we don't have a kohabot |
| 18:38 |
|
rach |
we have a logbot |
| 18:38 |
|
rach |
but that only logs |
| 18:38 |
|
shaun |
logbot: where is kohabot? |
| 18:38 |
|
shaun |
:-) |
| 18:44 |
|
shaun |
or.... rach: where is logbot? |
| 18:54 |
|
shaun |
kados: that's September 1st, right? |
| 18:58 |
|
kados |
shaun: yep ;-) |
| 18:58 |
|
kados |
shaun: did I say Aug? |
| 18:59 |
|
shaun |
kados: yes |
| 18:59 |
|
kados |
oops ... feel free to correct me on-list ;-) |
| 18:59 |
|
kados |
I'm a bit spacey today |
| 19:01 |
|
kados |
I'm so spacey that I killed the ssh daemon on one of my servers in seattle ... locking myself out ;-) |
| 19:01 |
|
kados |
had to call tech support to have them power cycle the machine ;-) |
| 19:01 |
|
shaun |
ouch, i've done that before |
| 19:01 |
|
kados |
I was trying to kill a stray ssh session |
| 19:02 |
|
kados |
and read the pids wrong ;-) |
| 19:02 |
|
kados |
that's when you know it's time to call it a night |
| 19:02 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 19:02 |
|
kados |
it'd be interesting to track how many you get |
| 19:03 |
|
kados |
to see how many people are actually following the list ;-) |
| 19:04 |
|
shaun |
11 so far |
| 19:07 |
|
shaun |
wait... 8, if you take away Ben, my gf and my dad..... it'll be more interesting this time tomorrow |
| 19:08 |
|
shaun |
have we ever had a slashdotting before? |
| 19:11 |
|
kados |
once I think |
| 19:11 |
|
kados |
back with the 1.x series |
| 19:21 |
|
rach |
shaun - logbot is on the channel - you can see it in the list |
| 19:21 |
|
shaun |
:-) |
| 19:25 |
|
kados |
it lives in chris's screen session most likely ;-) |
| 19:38 |
|
shaun |
i'm off, i've been waiting for this sleep for 20 hours.... oh yeah |
| 19:38 |
|
shaun |
night all |
| 19:44 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 20:08 |
|
thd |
kados: ping |
| 20:17 |
|
thd |
logbot: goodnight |
| 03:02 |
|
osmoze |
hello world !) |
| 03:03 |
|
paul |
Hello le 82 |
| 03:03 |
|
osmoze |
^^ |
| 03:46 |
|
indradg |
shaun, hi.... slept well? :) |
| 03:47 |
|
indradg |
the ungodly hours of Koha meets mess it up for me everytime ;) |
| 03:48 |
|
shaun |
indradg: nope, next door are drilling something |
| 03:48 |
|
indradg |
argh! |
| 03:50 |
|
shaun |
sometimes my family ponder over why i can use all my time on open source, but get really annoyed when woken up... |
| 04:22 |
|
hdl |
hi indradg. |
| 04:22 |
|
hdl |
how are you ? |
| 04:23 |
|
hdl |
I have been told that you designed koha Live-CD. |
| 04:23 |
|
hdl |
Which passwords did you use for root and kohaadmin ? |
| 06:50 |
|
osmoze |
paul ? |
| 06:51 |
|
paul |
yep |
| 06:52 |
|
osmoze |
hum...j ai un petit probleme avec css lors de l affichage detailler MARC dans le items |
| 06:52 |
|
osmoze |
les tableau sont fous ^^ |
| 06:52 |
|
osmoze |
j ai regarder sur tes opacs, et pareils |
| 06:53 |
|
osmoze |
et je n arrive pas a trouver :( |
| 06:54 |
|
osmoze |
en fait dans la feuille, si dans div.tabbloc je commente le position, alors ca marche ( en bas de page mais ca marche |
| 06:54 |
|
osmoze |
) |
| 06:55 |
|
paul |
et c'est quoi la question ? |
| 06:56 |
|
osmoze |
et bien comment faire pour pouvoir le mettre a niveau mais ayant un tableau juste ^^ |
| 06:57 |
|
osmoze |
il y a que absolute pour position qui met le tableau a la bonne place mais apres les donnees sont decalés |
| 06:57 |
|
osmoze |
et appremment sur tous les opac :( |
| 06:57 |
|
paul |
(pas bien compris la question...) |
| 06:57 |
|
paul |
(une URL peut être puorrait m'aider ?) |
| 06:57 |
|
osmoze |
vi |
| 06:57 |
|
osmoze |
je prepare l erreur :) |
| 09:49 |
|
paul |
hi owen, you're 1st of is joshua hidden ? |
| 09:49 |
|
owen |
I'm sure kados is lurking out there somewhere |
| 10:00 |
|
paul |
hi joshua. |
| 10:00 |
|
paul |
seems that new DB structure works quite good when MARC=ON |
| 10:01 |
|
paul |
add / modif of bilbio & items |
| 10:01 |
|
paul |
remains : deleting & MARC=OFF |
| 10:01 |
|
paul |
for instance, i'm trying to run zebra ;-) |
| 10:09 |
|
thd |
paul: what are you doing with MARCXML? |
| 10:09 |
|
paul |
hi thd |
| 10:09 |
|
thd |
hello paul |
| 10:09 |
|
paul |
i store the MARC record in both iso2709 & XML form in koha DB |
| 10:09 |
|
paul |
it's useful when debugging. |
| 10:10 |
|
paul |
not sure it will remain when koha 3.0 reaches the door ;-) |
| 10:10 |
|
paul |
but it's mandatory if you want to play with head for instance... |
| 10:10 |
|
kados |
paul: great! |
| 10:10 |
|
kados |
paul: you've been very busy ;-) |
| 10:11 |
|
paul |
not so much. I really know perfectly Biblio.pm as i'm the author & i had an exact idea of where I wanted to go. |
| 10:11 |
|
thd |
paul: which will be the form used in 3.0? |
| 10:11 |
|
paul |
what is the best imho, is that Biblio.pm should be strenghned with new DB structure |
| 10:12 |
|
paul |
thd : it's exactly the same in fact. |
| 10:12 |
|
paul |
MARCXML transforms an iso2709 record into XML, and XML2marc does the opposite. |
| 10:12 |
|
paul |
I think we will continue to work with MARC, but not 100% sure. |
| 10:13 |
|
paul |
(I mean here only for INTERNAL storing. We can import XML as well as iso2709 with ed summer great tools !) |
| 10:13 |
|
paul |
(same for export) |
| 10:14 |
|
thd |
paul: what is the advantage for using XML over MARC::Record, as you already well familiar with MARC::Record? |
| 10:14 |
|
paul |
while developping Koha, none for the code, BIG for debugging. |
| 10:15 |
|
paul |
as iso2709 is almost unreadable (almost like binray) |
| 10:15 |
|
paul |
so, it's useful to have both forms to be able to use the one you need depending on what you want to do ! |
| 10:17 |
|
kados |
paul: I was thinking that we could move the koha table to XML ... |
| 10:17 |
|
kados |
paul: so that non-marc libraries could still use Zebra |
| 10:17 |
|
kados |
paul: without having to deal with marc |
| 10:17 |
|
thd |
paul: Do you not have the same benefit if you compare a code problem to the original MARC record in text form as you do with the record in XML? |
| 10:18 |
|
paul |
thd : yes |
| 10:19 |
|
paul |
kados : why not, but we still would have the problem of defining the structure of the datas. and imho, we would arrive almost where we already are after a long trip ;-) |
| 10:19 |
|
kados |
:-) |
| 10:19 |
|
kados |
but ... it would add greater flexibility for the fields if we could do XML |
| 10:19 |
|
kados |
for instance, we could do free-text queries |
| 10:20 |
|
kados |
and Koha would be better than any other ILS out there ;-) |
| 10:22 |
|
thd |
kados: Do you mean free text queries on the koha tables? |
| 10:23 |
|
thd |
or rather information now held in the Koha tables? |
| 10:25 |
|
kados |
thd: I mean free text queries on full-text XML records |
| 10:25 |
|
kados |
thd: if a library had them |
| 10:31 |
|
thd |
kados: do you mean queries on XML records that did not originate from MARC? |
| 10:32 |
|
kados |
thd: yes |
| 10:34 |
|
thd |
kados: Can Zebra store and query arbitrary XML records on a fielded basis? |
| 10:34 |
|
kados |
thd: yep |
| 10:35 |
|
paul |
YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.... |
| 10:35 |
|
kados |
what's up paul ... solve the universal question? ;-) |
| 10:35 |
|
paul |
I made my 1st succesfull koha => zebra => search !!! |
| 10:35 |
|
kados |
great! |
| 10:35 |
|
kados |
that's very exciting |
| 10:35 |
|
kados |
whoohoo! |
| 10:36 |
|
thd |
horaay. |
| 10:36 |
|
paul |
quite strange to HAVE to run zebraidx IN the directory where your zebra.cfg is... |
| 10:36 |
|
kados |
hehe ... yea I thought so too |
| 10:36 |
|
kados |
of course you can specify where the config is with '-c' I think (don't quote me though ;-)) |
| 10:37 |
|
paul |
don't seems to work if you are in a different directory. |
| 10:37 |
|
paul |
i tried but without success... |
| 10:40 |
|
thd |
well, can Zebra be used to query an arbitrary XML format where 'title' is in one record, 245 etc. used in another, something else used in another in one Zebra database for the same query? |
| 10:41 |
|
kados |
thd: I've got an NCIP meeting to attend |
| 10:42 |
|
kados |
thd: if you want some more info about zebra check out indexdata.dk/zebra |
| 10:42 |
|
kados |
thd: we can chat later tonight about it if you like |
| 10:42 |
|
thd |
kados: when tonight? |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
stupid sourceforge... |
| 10:42 |
|
kados |
paul: yes! for me too! |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed: |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
550-SPAM: This message appears to be spam (5.3 points). |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
it was just my commit !!! |
| 10:43 |
|
kados |
paul: grrr! |
| 10:43 |
|
kados |
that's absurd! |
| 10:43 |
|
paul |
you got it too ? |
| 10:43 |
|
kados |
no |
| 10:43 |
|
kados |
not that |
| 10:43 |
|
paul |
why 'yes for me too' ? |
| 10:43 |
|
paul |
you mean you played successfully with head ? |
| 10:43 |
|
kados |
it's been very very slow and down quite a bit over the last few days |
| 10:43 |
|
kados |
no ... I tried committing some things yesterday |
| 10:44 |
|
kados |
and couldn't get them through |
| 10:44 |
|
kados |
paul: I must go now ... maybe we can chat tomorrow about your schedule so I know when to get ahold of you if I need to |
| 10:45 |
|
thd |
kados: when does testing Savannah start? |
| 10:45 |
|
paul |
ok, will be here |
| 10:45 |
|
thd |
kados: when will you be available tonight? |
| 10:50 |
|
thd |
paul: As, many things need to be changed for 3.0, do you have any thought about supporting the possible eventual use of UNIMARC and MARC21 in the same Koha installation? |
| 10:51 |
|
paul |
no, it's not a priority for me. |
| 10:51 |
|
thd |
paul: I did not mean it as a priority. |
| 10:54 |
|
thd |
paul: I meant to ask if you would think about how support for that might be built eventually by using an extra variable. |
| 10:55 |
|
thd |
paul: not to build it now or for 3.0 but to think about the possibility for distant version X.X. |
| 11:01 |
|
thd |
paul: Do you think that the thought is merely crazy, and therefore, unworthy of even thinking about an eventual possibility. |
| 11:01 |
|
thd |
? |
| 11:02 |
|
paul |
the question I immediatly see is : can I do this. than answer is no |
| 11:02 |
|
paul |
(at least for instance) |
| 11:02 |
|
paul |
I have no opinion otherwise. |
| 11:05 |
|
thd |
paul: what I mean in the simplest respect for a more flexible installation is a variable that controls whether Koha is using MARC 21, UNIMARC, some other MARC, non-MARC, whatever. |
| 11:07 |
|
thd |
paul: There is such a variable now but it does not rebuild the DB to use another format. It would be nice if rebuilding the DB to use another format were not necessary in the way that one can change templates or CSS. I know the issue different from templates or CSS. |
| 11:09 |
|
thd |
s/different/is different/ |
| 11:12 |
|
thd |
paul: If Koha could change MARC formats with a mere variable, then it would be much easier to eventually support my fantasy of multi-format Koha in some distant never never land :) |
| 11:16 |
|
thd |
paul: In that never never land, the a particular record flavour is preferred but not completely required. Copy cataloguing French books would be easier in the MARC 21 world and copy cataloguing English books would be easier in the UNIMARC world. |
| 11:18 |
|
thd |
paul: I will stop wasting your attention now. :) |
| 11:18 |
|
paul |
anyway, it's 6PM here, so i'm on my desktop for a few minuts only :-D |
| 11:19 |
|
thd |
paul: I just hate systems that are incompatible by design. The various MARCs for example. :) |
| 11:20 |
|
paul |
& i think i'll never understand why UNIMARC & MARC21 are so incompatibles ! |
| 11:20 |
|
paul |
probably a frenchie that said "hey, guy, look, I made something myself, better than those stupid americans" |
| 11:21 |
|
thd |
paul: It is mostly better for many aspects, in my opinion. |
| 11:21 |
|
paul |
which one ? unimarc or marc21 ? |
| 11:21 |
|
thd |
paul: UNIMARC |
| 11:22 |
|
paul |
I know french librarians that thinks marc21 is better than unimarc for many aspects !!! |
| 11:22 |
|
thd |
paul: It had the advantage of being designed later. |
| 11:22 |
|
paul |
(but dunno which) |
| 11:23 |
|
thd |
paul: MARC 21 is more complete for some information. |
| 11:25 |
|
thd |
paul: UNIMARC provides $3 for fields that MARC leaves a system to figure out how best to implement. That is a difficulty for authorities. |
| 11:29 |
|
thd |
paul: There are business interests prefer incompatibilities. Incompatibilities are a problem for a competitor so you can have your own closed market. |
| 11:32 |
|
thd |
paul: The commercial companies that built the subway system in New York City each used a different track width to ensure that they would never be combined. They were combined anyways. The combined system merely became more expensive to operate than it would have been if they had used only one track width originally. |
