IRC log for #koha, 2006-08-08

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:37 thd kados?
12:37 dewey it has been said that kados is becoming a true Perl Monger...
12:38 thd dewey: seen kados?
12:38 dewey kados was last seen on #koha 1 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 4 seconds ago, saying: paul++ :-) [Sun Aug  6 02:21:11 2006]
12:42 thd jbrice_: are you there?
12:44 thd dewey: seen jbrice_?
12:44 dewey I haven't seen 'jbrice_', thd
12:44 thd dewey: seen johnb?
12:44 dewey johnb was last seen on #koha 14 days, 16 hours, 21 minutes and 12 seconds ago, saying: hey guys its been fun but they are starting to shoot motars my way (fireworks) got a get out of here before the building catches on fire. [Sun Jul 23 13:23:27 2006]
22:32 thd russ: are you there?
22:34 russ hi thd
22:35 thd hello russ
22:35 thd russ: I have been starting to create wiki content
22:36 thd russ: unfortunately, the default docuwiki CSS is terrible for readability
22:37 thd russ: I have an improved version for readability
22:38 thd russ: I sent it to kados a day and a half ago but he may be too busy to install it
22:39 thd russ: woould you be able to install my improved CSS for the wiki if I sent it to you?
22:39 russ thd: i dont think it is that bad
22:39 russ thd: no, it is on liblimes servers which i dont have access to
22:40 thd russ: oh, yes I remember that it was hosted there now but I thought that you had special access for the wiki
22:41 thd russ: it has very long lines with no margins at a small font size in the main body text
22:42 thd russ: that makes full paragraphs difficult to follow
22:43 thd russ:       it      even      uses       justification       which      sometimes      gives      you      this     effect
22:44 thd russ: low contrast links, a heading style which is anomalously not bold, etc.
22:45 thd russ: you would not notice for most wiki content
22:46 thd russ: however I started to include some fuller documents and it became a real problem to read them
22:46 thd russ: I will pester kados to try and change it this week
22:48 thd russ: a CSS like the CSS would be nice but I did not have that much time to understand all the elements and make as many changes as would be required for that
22:51 thd russ: most wiki content is brief outlines which do not reveal these problems much
02:32 paul hdl around ?
02:32 hdl yes
03:49 hdl !topic  an amazing catalogue :
07:08 jbrice_ thd: You lookong for me?
07:09 thd johnb: yes
07:09 johnb thd:  what's up?
07:10 thd johnb: I wanted to know the status of your work on setting up a Koha foundation
07:11 johnb thd:  I have been doing some research on what type of structure we should have, I have not done anything else
07:11 thd johnb: I what type of structure should we have?
07:12 thd johnb: or what are the good options
07:12 johnb thd:  It seems to me that we would best to look at the apache foundation they seem to have a structure that works and keeps all of the vested interests represented
07:15 thd johnb: if that is your conclusion, I am certain that no one in the present community would object to your proceeding with whatever was officially needed.
07:15 johnb thd:  the trick in this is creating a structure in which all of the vested interests: developers, users, hosting companies benefit from the foundation
07:16 johnb thd:  while at the same time create a forum that can be managed remotely, across national boundaries
07:17 thd johnb: If the Apache foundation is a good model, then use that model
07:17 slef wheel reinvention ;)
07:17 johnb thd:  I am kinda of busy this week.  Give me a week or so I will create an outline of my thoughts and we can post it to the wiki for comment
07:18 thd slef: who has the first wheel
07:18 thd ?
07:18 johnb thd:  overall I think the apache foundation model is pretty good, though we may want to tweak it here and there to fit our unique needs
07:19 slef thd: Unsure. There are certainly many wheels there now. Apache, SPI, ...
07:19 johnb thd:  Overall I would like the process to be open and have as much comment as possible, it is much easier to change things before they become official
07:20 thd johnb: kados had been the most anxious for having some foundation soon.  I think he became too busy to press for some action after developer week.
07:20 slef as in, can't remember how it works
07:21 slef I think the biggest questions are: what are the goals, what are the methods, what are the costs?
07:22 paul everybody : in France, ENSMP & sociology libraries had a meeting in july, and the "association loi 1901" idea continues to be investigated
07:22 paul (hello thd johnb & slef)
07:22 slef hi paul
07:22 thd johnb: certainly, the process should be open.  I know slef has important comments.  People with actual reservations are seem to express them in terms of a please go ahead and make something great if we like it we will join,
07:25 slef My reservation is the overheads:benefits ratio, but I don't want to prejudge things I don't know enough about.
07:25 thd johnb: if you have a reasonable starting point.  The structure should always be amendable by the participants.
07:25 slef thd++
07:25 johnb Paul:  Hello, Paul
07:26 paul that's why thes description of the "association loi 1901" in the 1st draft is quite large.
07:26 paul to let members define exactly what they want to do.
07:26 paul the only important thing being "the association is created to promote the Koha software".
07:27 paul (french word for "promote" having a strong non-commercial meaning, that i'm not sure exist in english)
07:27 thd paul: how is work going to set up a Koha foundation in France?
07:27 johnb We need to agree on a mission and then from the mission we can create structure.
07:27 paul ENSMP & sociology proposed on french mailing list a 1st draft for a structure.
07:28 paul it will have to be discussed after the summer I think
07:28 thd paul: promote is not necessarily commercial in English.
07:28 slef but not necessarily non-commercial either
07:28 johnb here is a good link to check out:​ow-it-works.html#structure
07:29 paul in french, when you say "faire la promotion" => non commercial sense. "faire une promotion" => commercial sense
07:29 paul "promouvoir" being non commercial only.
07:30 slef I'd translate "faire la promotion" as "do promotion" and "faire une promotion" as "run a promotion"
07:30 slef "do promotion" says nothing about commercialism
07:30 slef but my french is terrible, as we all know ;-)
07:30 thd paul: English being language soup, lacks that distinction.
07:31 slef I wonder whether I'd translate promouvoir as promote or advocate, usually.
07:31 johnb Not to change to tpic, but Cindy and I are going to be interviewed today by a California movie producer for a documentary entitled "Tipping Point"
07:31 slef anyway, it's certainly not advertise
07:31 slef not necessarily
07:31 slef mmm, english, a language divided unto itself
07:31 slef so much flavour, so much of it bitter
07:32 slef johnb: whassat?
07:32 thd paul: did you mean that the discussion of the French foundation would probably have to wait until after the summer or any foundation?
07:32 johnb The idea of the movie is to discuss how entities chose to use open source.  The producer is using open source software to produce the movie.
07:33 johnb Paul:  I will post something in the next few weeks and will await comment until mid September before proposing anything.
07:36 thd johnb: my understanding from devel_week is that Katipo may not agree to anything in particular but they will be happy to support and consider joining a foundation which is proven successful.
07:36 slef s/open source/free/ ;-)
07:38 thd johnb: the principals of Katipo could not attend devel week but their representatives made a reasonable presentation about the prospective stance of Katipo.
07:41 thd johnb: we could discuss a more perfect foundation for a year without creating one.  At some point, those who need a foundation have to take some initiative to start something.
07:42 paul thd +++
07:44 thd johnb: as long as the structure is somewhat amendable.  A more perfect foundation will never be excluded.
07:45 thd johnb: if everything is done in the light by people with good will, no one will think it unfair.
07:47 thd johnb: Koha is not big enough yet to have anyone worried about slighting some one else's interests.
07:49 thd johnb: the longer it takes, the more opportunities will be lost for promoting the interests of even the people who do not even care particularly about a foundation.
07:51 thd johnb: is Tipping Point liable to go to cinemas or television first?
07:53 johnb thd:  I have no idea, they have not told us what there distribution plan is at this point
07:56 thd johnb: they already have a better title than the weak film which I have seen about open source/free software a few years ago.
07:59 slef Revolution OS or something else?
07:59 thd johnb: that film ended with the boost in Red Hat stock price before the bubble collapsed.  Nice participants but poor post-filming editing etc. work diluted the quality of some interesting interviews.
08:00 thd slef: yes, that was the title
08:02 thd johnb: tell them to interview Eben Moglen, the FSF lawyer and a fantastic very clever energetic speaker, even if they are able to interview Richard Stallman.
08:06 Mordazy Hello all
08:06 Mordazy I`m new here
08:06 Mordazy got a few questions :)
08:06 Mordazy Anybody here?
08:07 thd hello Mordazy
08:07 Mordazy Hello thd
08:08 Mordazy I`m testing Polish version of Koha 2.2.4
08:08 Mordazy I like it a lot
08:08 Mordazy however, one thing scared me:
08:09 thd johnb: If they are able to interview Damian Conway, 'mad scientist of Perl', never a dull moment is guaranteed.
08:10 Mordazy I haven`t found a way to "attach" a borrower to more than one library branch
08:11 thd Mordazy:I am not a circulation expert
08:11 Mordazy Also couldn`t verify if a borrower from branch A has restricted access to branch B
08:12 Mordazy thd: pity :(
08:13 thd Mordazy: I think that membership of one branch is usually membership for the library system so I would expect that is default behaviour
08:14 Mordazy That`s the problem. My library has several branches, some of them charge annual fee
08:14 thd Mordazy: so branches have different policies
08:14 thd about membership
08:15 Mordazy yes, it is because the branches that charge annual fee are DVD / Audio collections
08:16 Mordazy the charge is about $6 a year, which is rather symbolic
08:17 Mordazy but yes, the branches have different policies about membership
08:17 slef Mordazy: if you can describe this membership model in more detail to the koha mailing list(s), someone may explain how to do it, or it may be added to a coming version.
08:17 thd Mordazy: branches are certainly provided with policy differentiation
08:17 johnb thd:  Will do.
08:18 thd Mordazy: also where had you downloaded Koha?
08:19 Mordazy 2.2.4 from Sourceforge, if I remember correctly
08:20 slef Savannah or Sourceforge?
08:20 Mordazy can`t remember, sorry
08:20 Mordazy then copied database structure and intranet files from working Polish installation
08:23 Mordazy I was told that only minor things were changed
08:24 slef run updatedatabase (I think it's in scripts... backup database first)
08:25 Mordazy slef: did that
08:26 Mordazy it`s strange that nobody wanted such borrower / branch restrictions...
08:26 thd Mordazy: there are some major changes/bug fixes in the version being prepared for release
08:26 thd Mordazy: http://download.savannah.nongn[…]rg/releases/koha/
08:27 Mordazy thd: thanks, I saw that, but for now I must stick with 2.2.4
08:27 thd Mordazy: the 2.2.6 release candidate is being tested for production release
08:28 Mordazy I know, however the man from whom I took Polish files is not very content about it
08:29 thd Mordazy: unreported bugs prior to 2.2.6 are very scary
08:29 Mordazy I`ll download 2.2.6 and have a look
08:30 thd Mordazy: Is MARC 21 used in Poland?
08:30 Mordazy however, I`m learning all of it yet, so I have to stick with what I have :)
08:31 Mordazy thd: yes, we had local variation of Marc
08:31 Mordazy but now most libraries use M21
08:33 thd Mordazy: the functions are very similar between 2.2.6 and 2.2.4 except you can loose data and corrupt your records silently in earlier versions.
08:34 thd Mordazy: experimenting with 2.2.4 is fine and has been used at many libraries but I would not feel safe with versions prior to 2.2.6 if I had a library.
08:34 Mordazy hmmmm
08:34 Mordazy you say?
08:36 Mordazy Anyway, there will be a year before we implement Koha in our library
08:36 thd Mordazy: the biggest bug is that without a comprehensive MARC bibliographic framework only in 2.2.6 for MARC 21 your records loose many fields once you edit them.
08:36 Mordazy But I wanted to have a working system in 2-3 months to test...
08:37 thd Mordazy: In one year Koha will be the world's best ILS in version 3.2.
08:38 Mordazy ...and I will finish learning Perl, SQL, PHP and many other things :)
08:38 thd Mordazy: there may even be a later version in one year
08:39 Mordazy actually number of releases doesn`t matter to me
08:39 Mordazy once I get system up and running stable, I won`t change it in years :)
08:41 Mordazy OK, have to go
08:42 Mordazy but will come here often, I think :)
08:42 thd Mordazy: there is a major structural change being worked on now which is transforming how everything works.  That is already partly available in the 2.3 experimental release which should be stable as 2.4 in a few weeks.
08:42 Mordazy Bye!
08:46 thd kados: are you awake yet?
08:51 owen thd: you and I will have to arm-wrestle for his attention when he wakes up ;)
08:52 thd owen: I only need a minute of his attention
08:53 thd owen: do you have permissions to update the CSS on the wiki?
08:53 owen No, I'm afraid not
08:54 owen Maybe russ?
08:55 thd owen: I sent kados an updated CSS on Saturday.  russ told me that he does not have permissions because it is now on a LibLime server.
08:55 owen Oh. I didn't know that.
08:56 thd owen: I think improving the wiki had been a task that pierrick had been addressing, alas no longer.
08:59 thd owen: I wanted to ask kados to find the time to apply my Docuwiki CSS file revisions within a couple of days.  He only has to copy the file I sent into place
09:00 thd owen: the default CSS was all on one line, never meant to be human readable.
09:01 thd owen: I found several problems for readability of full documents on the wiki and I want to link to send people to one of them by the end of the week.
09:02 thd or actually even the middle of the week for one person
09:09 thd owen: see[…]saveas=&save=save for some problems I found.
09:20 kados hdl: you around?
09:20 hdl yes.
09:20 kados hdl: any luck on the serials bugs?
09:21 hdl which one full-serial-issue ?
09:22 hdl or next expected issue one ?
09:22 kados 1124, 1136, 1125
09:22 kados serials is broken until those are fixed
09:23 kados I had a client try the new serials and this was based on their report
09:23 kados 1140
09:23 kados 4 blocker bugs for serials I think
09:24 owen kados: I tried adding a serial this morning on NPL's test server and got a 500 error
09:24 kados hmmm ... maybe a 5th then :(
09:24 owen Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /home/oleonard/koha/intranet/modules//C4/ line 547
09:24 kados huh ...
09:24 kados that might be a MARC21 prob
09:24 kados did the record you added it for have a leader?
09:25 hdl 1124 seems to be a simple order pb Is it not ?
09:25 owen kados: I created a bare-bones record from scratch. All I filled in was a title.
09:26 kados yea, you need to have a leader with position 09 with a value of 'a'
09:26 kados I need to force that in I think
09:27 kados hdl: it's simple? great, should be simple to fix then ;-)
09:27 hdl kados : Have you read my comment ?
09:27 kados yes ... and I responded
09:27 hdl on that bug ?
09:27 kados yep
09:27 hdl No the answer to your comment.
09:27 kados[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1124
09:28 kados hdl: take a look at my response
09:29 hdl OK.
09:29 hdl so format_date has a problem.
09:29 paul hdl : about ordering => do you know that mySQL has a if() function, that could be used to order by publisheddate if it is not empty, otherwise by the previous date
09:29 kados hdl: either format_date, or else the serials aren't getting the right dates in the first place
09:29 paul strange, because format_date is used a lot of time all around Koha. What it the exact content of the field before the date_format ?
09:30 kados guys ... can I suggest something?
09:30 kados on one of your installs:
09:30 kados 1. create a new subscription
09:30 kados 2. check in 5 issues
09:30 kados you should see all the bugs I reported immediately
09:31 hdl kados : ok.
09:32 hdl I will work on this tonight and tomorow.
09:32 hdl (if paul agrees)
09:32 thd kados: will you have a chance to apply my file to fix the wiki CSS some time in the next couple of days?
09:32 kados thd: I will do it now
09:33 thd wow what a response
09:34 paul hoping you won't need 2 days ;-)
09:35 kados thd: where does it go?
09:36 kados thd: replace style.css?
09:36 thd kados check the message
09:38 kados thd: ok, I updated it
09:38 thd kados: it goes here
09:38 kados thd: it seems to be quite ugly :-)
09:39 kados thd: I'm going to revert back to the old one if that's OK
09:39 thd kados: i never made a beaurty claim if you read the message.  I only claimed that unreadable was uglier.
09:40 thd kados: beauty requires time
09:40 thd kados: I did not have the time for beauty
09:40 kados thd: you have trouble reading the site?
09:40 kados thd: why not just increase the font?
09:40 kados size?
09:41 kados thd: also, you can create a local css file for your browser
09:41 kados thd: to override any css on the web
09:41 thd kados: the line lengths are still to long to scan if you have real paragraphs
09:43 thd kados: I still have than perfect vision with a large body and had trouble following full text in the body.
09:45 thd kados: are you back?
09:45 kados thd: yep
09:45 thd kados: did you see "I still have than perfect vision with a large body and had trouble following full text in the body."
09:46 thd s/perfect/perfect, but text
09:46 kados thd: yes, I see that
09:46 thd s/vision/vision, but text
09:47 thd kados: there was almost no right margin
09:47 owen I didn't see the custom one, but I like the default stylesheet just fine.
09:47 owen I don't think we should replace it unless someone can really work out the kinks of a new one
09:47 kados thd: I think your sole solution for now is to use a local css to override the existing one :(
09:48 kados thd: until, as owen says, someone can really work out the kinks of a new one
09:48 kados thd: have you created a local css before?
09:49 thd kados: If I have problems with perfect vision I guarantee people with less than perfect vision have a much worse problem
09:49 thd kados owen: you have not seen the problems because they are not apparent without full dcuments
09:50 thd kados owen-away: the wiki has almost no full documents
09:52 thd kados: I used the Firefox web developer plugin to test locally but that steals 20% of the screen so it was difficult to see a proper view.
09:52 kados thd: here's what you can do
09:53 kados thd: locate your 'crome' dir in your firefox installation
09:53 kados in your browser user profile
09:53 kados copy the file you emailed me to userContent.css
09:54 kados that should override the site's css and you'll be viewing it as you please :-)
09:54 thd kados: you mean that every web site will have that CSS?
09:54 kados thd: yes :-)
09:55 kados you can restrict it to a specific site I think
09:55 kados but I don't have time to investigate that
09:55 thd kados: I will investigate myself tomorrow
10:07 thd kados: I will test the wiki CSS locally tomorrow to try and make it a little more like the beautiful CSS.  I consider it to be a significant problem for including anything more than outline content.  I know that my changes were not beautiful but I consider the existing CSS merely decorative and not very functional for full documents.
10:07 kados fair enough
10:08 kados I'm willing to change the css if someone has a better alternative, but so far, you're the only one to complain about the current one
10:08 kados bbl
10:08 thd kados: as I said there is nothing to complain about if no one has documents that need anything better
10:12 slef I'm just used to sites having broken CSS and I'm usually challenged to fix them if I complain, so I mostly don't complain until I have time to fix if asked.
10:13 kados thd did submit a fix, but it was just a bit too ugly for public consumption IMO :-)
10:14 slef I was trying to explain why lack of complaints doesn't mean it's good ;-)
10:15 kados ahh :-)
10:15 thd slef kados: I remember comment during devel week that we should make the wiki CSS like the one at  Pierrick was going to work on that but not having him around is a big loss.
10:16 kados thd: yea, that would be nice
10:17 thd kados: I think it is fine for the outline content it mostly had but I have been trying to put in fuller content and noticing significant problems/
11:27 kyle kados: are you around?
11:28 kados kyle: yep
11:29 kyle I was wondering if you could give me more detail on your idea of how to get data out of the offline circ extension, and into koha.
11:29 kados right
11:29 kados well off the top of my head
11:29 kados you could create a mirror tmpl that spat out xml
11:30 kados when passed a var
11:30 kados then you could pretty easily parse that client-side using the standard DOM stuff
11:30 kyle ok, I get that. I assume we'd have to a a POST argument to make the perl files use the xml template instead of the standard one.
11:30 kados ie, use the same script we have now
11:30 kados yea
11:30 kados something like tmpl=xml or something
11:31 kyle I don't think I fully understood what you meant the first time you explained it, and this morning the pieces all fell together.
11:31 kados cool
11:31 kados yea, I don't imagine it'll be that difficult
11:31 kados basically you just need to make sure that circulation.xml hands valid xml back
11:32 kyle Are there any resourses you can point me to on POSTING to a webpage from firefox?
11:32 kados hmmm
11:32 kados use XMLHttpRequest
11:32 kyle ok, I'll check that out. I've been doing a bit of reading on XMLHttpRequest.
11:33 kyle I've never worked with AJAX before.
11:33 kados kyle:
11:33 kados kyle: there's something to get you started
11:33 kados kyle: has the livesearch running if you want to see it in action
11:33 kyle thanks.

Channels | #koha index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | plain, newest first | summary