Time  Nick                  Message
06:36 reiveune              hello
06:36 wahanui               what's up, reiveune
06:45 calire                morning
07:30 cait                  good morning #koha
08:24 ashimema              mornin'
13:58 ashimema              next meeting?
13:58 wahanui               next meeting is https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Next_IRC_meetings
14:01 ashimema              #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 10 July 2019
14:01 huginn`               Meeting started Wed Jul 10 14:01:38 2019 UTC.  The chair is ashimema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01 huginn`               Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:01 huginn`               The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_10_july_2019'
14:01 ashimema              #chair cait
14:01 huginn`               Current chairs: ashimema cait
14:01 ashimema              #topic Introductions
14:02 thd                   #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
14:02 ashimema              #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe
14:03 fridolin              #info Fridolin Somers, Biblibre France
14:03 ashimema              #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_IRC_meeting_10_July_2019 Agenda
14:04 ashimema              I'm sure cait was here a minute ago
14:05 cait                  oh yes
14:05 ashimema              coudl be a short one if that's all we've got
14:05 cait                  #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
14:06 * cait                pings random people
14:06 cait                  rmaints?
14:06 wahanui               rmaints is fridolin, lucas and wizzyrea
14:06 fridolin              all is good
14:06 cait                  khall bag tcohen
14:06 fridolin              sorry I'm a bit late on backport
14:06 cait                  Joubu
14:06 ashimema              #topic Announcements
14:07 cait                  nothing fromme
14:07 fridolin              I made a new plugin https://github.com/biblibre/koha-plugin-theme-intranet-lsd
14:07 ashimema              #info The first set of maintanence releases have gone out since the last meeting.. Thanks to the RMaints :)
14:07 * tcohen              is heading downtown, sorry
14:08 ashimema              lol
14:08 ashimema              moving on then
14:08 ashimema              #topic Update from the Release manager
14:09 ashimema              Things are ticking along... I'm currently blocked by failing tests on Jenkins but have tcohen on the case (as I've reached a dead end with my own efforts)
14:09 ashimema              teamwork++
14:10 ashimema              that's pretty much it from me..
14:10 ashimema              #topic Updates from the Release Maintainers
14:11 ashimema              rmaints?
14:11 wahanui               rmaints is, like, fridolin, lucas and wizzyrea
14:11 * ashimema            grr, forgot to info my update
14:11 cait                  heh
14:11 wizzyrea              #info liz rea
14:12 wizzyrea              things are going along from my point of view
14:12 ashimema              any updates fridolin
14:12 ashimema              or wizzyrea
14:12 wahanui               i heard wizzyrea was very glad the git repo is reliably working todya
14:13 fridolin              nothing special in 19.05.x
14:13 wizzyrea              nothing special in 18.05.x
14:13 fridolin              sorry i'm a bit late on pushing
14:13 ashimema              no worries :)
14:13 ashimema              ok.. moving onto QA then
14:13 cait                  #info maintenance releases are moving along nicely
14:13 ashimema              #topic Updates from the QA team
14:13 cait                  we are a bit low on QA time right now is my general feeling
14:14 cait                  #info Number of bad bugs on the dashboard are too high - 3 blockers, 4 criticals, 22 majors
14:14 wizzyrea              ohh that's gross
14:14 * wizzyrea            makes a note
14:14 cait                  #info Please focus on bugs for now if time is low - we need to make sure they are taken care of
14:15 cait                  it's not only QA there, missing patches, SO.... a mix
14:15 cait                  so really everyone can help there  ;)
14:15 * ashimema            would be interested to see a graph of QA activity over a few cycles.. it would be interesting to see if there's a patturn to the ebbs adn flows
14:15 wizzyrea              :D
14:15 cait                  I think it feels like the European summer 'hole' right now
14:15 cait                  probably a German term
14:15 wizzyrea              yeah it's holiday time
14:16 cait                  things just slow down a lot - but it's a little unnerving for those who are still here :)
14:16 ashimema              admitedly only three of those are in the QA queue right now..
14:16 cait                  I've also inlcuded some new contributors in my weekly QA email, there are quite a few in NSO
14:16 cait                  please be nice
14:16 cait                  #info Be nice to people starting out - new contributors :)
14:16 ashimema              there's a few in NSO and more in need of some code submitting
14:17 cait                  ashimema: that's correct - it's really an all-community-task
14:17 cait                  wizzyrea: i'd be happy if you could start with this one - bug 23293
14:17 huginn`               Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23293 normal, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , OPACFineNoRenewals compares against 'balance' not 'outstanding'
14:17 cait                  argh
14:17 cait                  bug 23283
14:17 huginn`               Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23283 critical, P5 - low, ---, lucas, Needs Signoff , cannot view/edit additional attributes in 18.11.x
14:18 ashimema              I'll try to take on one or two of the 'Major' ones still without code
14:18 wizzyrea              ah right
14:18 wizzyrea              which solution there do we like better
14:18 wizzyrea              the 2nd?
14:18 wahanui               the 2nd is the staff interface
14:19 cait                  i think it's only one patch now
14:19 cait                  it seems to include the change mark made - but please double check
14:20 wizzyrea              oh right
14:20 wizzyrea              yep ok
14:20 cait                  nothing more from me
14:20 cait                  hit me up if you have a spare moment and need inspiration :)
14:21 ashimema              okies, moving on then
14:21 ashimema              #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...)
14:21 ashimema              we have a few to go through
14:21 ashimema              do we have alex_a around?
14:22 corilynn              I haven't seen him since last week, ashimema
14:22 wizzyrea              holidayyyyys
14:22 ashimema              #topic Mana-KB Workflows
14:22 ashimema              #info Looking for some guidance on how to progress ManaKB serverside bugs
14:22 ashimema              perhaps best to postpone that one again then..
14:23 fridolin              alex is on holidays
14:23 fridolin              for 3 weeks
14:23 ashimema              it's unclear how we want to manage that project as a community yet.. there's no clear path through SO/QA and Push
14:23 ashimema              but there is a record of issues in Bugzilla.. so we need to define how we want to operate there.
14:23 ashimema              anywho.. lets move on whilst the relevant parties aren't here
14:24 cait                  can we add a note?
14:24 cait                  https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Website_Administration is missing infromation for Hea and Mana
14:24 ashimema              #info Postponed discussion as the key parties are not in attendance
14:24 cait                  I'd really like to have some information on the provider and who to talk
14:25 cait                  #info Note for later: Update/complate https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Website_Administration for Mana and Hea
14:25 cait                  complete...
14:25 ashimema              thanks
14:25 ashimema              #topic Road to Mojolicious
14:26 ashimema              #info I'll be starting to look at bug 23161 in the next couple of weeks with a view to persuing pushing it early next month
14:26 huginn`               Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23161 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , We need to document the release process for this project?
14:26 ashimema              #info Correction, that was meant to be bug 20582
14:26 huginn`               Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=20582 enhancement, P5 - low, Future, julian.maurice, Signed Off , Turn Koha into a Mojolicious application
14:27 cait                  not only me today :)
14:27 ashimema              I think there's a general concensus that it's worth investigating.. I want to get a few more key parties involved and get their opinions, excitment and fears
14:28 ashimema              unless anyone has anything else they specifically want to say on that one, it was more of an anouncement than a discussion.. please get involved :)
14:28 ashimema              moving on
14:29 ashimema              #topic Git maintanence
14:29 ashimema              ack, no Joubu.. he was meant to be leading the charge on this one.
14:29 ashimema              #info The gitlab mirror is currently failing to mirror correctly as our main repository is so large.
14:29 cait                  oh
14:29 ashimema              #info This really just highlights that the repository is still growing at an alarming rate and as such many of our tools are starting to struggle.
14:30 ashimema              rangi has already proposed we move the translations into their own repository
14:30 thd                   It may also highlight potential problems with Gitlab overhead.
14:30 ashimema              and we have other suggestions
14:31 ashimema              #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Git_Splitting_and_Shrinking Git maintanence proposals
14:32 cait                  we just need to make sure we have a clear workflow
14:32 ashimema              I would say we do need to reduce our core repo's footprint at some point.. we've been discussing it for years for all sorts of reasons... I think it's time we took some decisive action
14:32 cait                  for how to ship translations
14:32 ashimema              indeed cait
14:32 thd                   Moving translations and anything non-destructive to potentially important code history should be preferred.
14:32 cait                  woudl splitting out mean we don't include them anymore in packages etc?
14:32 ashimema              but also need a consensus on how far we go with the cleanup..
14:33 fridolin              we should build anguage packages like firefox does
14:33 ashimema              we have a few options outlined on that page.. please take a look and contribute to the discussions.
14:33 cait                  i am just worried because we are so log on people now - we can't leave this half-finished
14:33 cait                  i think the history on the po files is not relevant
14:33 cait                  as it's all automated and not 'personal'
14:34 ashimema              right now cait, I believe the idea is to use git submodules (so the build process would remain as is but the maints would need to pull the submodule repo rather than merge the latest translations commit)
14:34 cait                  hm maybe some from pre-pootle days... but most shoudl be just the translation server as author
14:34 cait                  ashimema: how woudl the update happen on the submodule repo?
14:34 ashimema              the issue with loosing history isn't the history of those files themselves but the way git records it..
14:35 ashimema              removing those files historically (which would lead to the biggest improvement in repo size) would change the commit hashes for the whole history (every commit)..
14:35 ashimema              which could cause headaches
14:35 cait                  oh
14:35 cait                  so all links in bugzilla etc... broken?
14:36 ashimema              pretty much as it does now cait.. the translations are already basically maintained in their own repo on github.. the rmaints (and rm) just pull in one commit each release from it.
14:36 cait                  not such a big fan fo that idea
14:36 fridolin              my disk space is fan of it ;)
14:36 ashimema              kohadevbox and koha-testing-docker would be fans of it ;)
14:37 fridolin              and jenkins
14:37 cait                  so that would be... option 3?
14:37 thd                   Which options break links?
14:38 ashimema              there's lots of good positives here.. it's whether they outweight the negatives
14:38 corilynn              i don't think i understand the negatives
14:38 cait                  i am not sure about losing history = does it mean, it's gone (like freshly initiated) or just: changed hashes
14:38 cait                  and it's all still there but reorganized
14:38 thd                   Does option 3 "Keep-loose history" break links?
14:39 ashimema              I should clean up that page.. it doesn't make it desperately clear
14:39 ashimema              what links are we talking about cait?
14:39 ashimema              an example would be good
14:39 cait                  linking to a commit on git
14:40 cait                  some bug trackers allow you do that nicely... i think we don't have tons of those in bugzilla, only some
14:40 cait                  usually something liek: i tracked it back to commit... breaking things
14:40 ashimema              personally.. I like the idea of drawing a line and having a koha-legacy repo where all the links would just continue to work
14:41 ashimema              as nothing would change.. it just stops moving
14:41 ashimema              then doing the splitting and cleaning as a fresh set of repos
14:41 ashimema              all new development goes onto the new repo's
14:42 ashimema              the issue is more about how all devs would need to switch to tracking the new repository
14:42 cait                  (16:38:44) cait: i am not sure about losing history = does it mean, it's gone (like freshly initiated) or just: changed hashes
14:42 cait                  (16:38:52) cait: and it's all still there but reorganized
14:42 cait                  still a bit stuck on that question
14:42 thd                   Yes, if creating legacy preserves all history and does not break past links.
14:42 ashimema              and.. their existing branches and patches would need updateing to apply to the new repos'
14:42 ashimema              what you'd see allot of in the beggining would be that horrible `sha1 does not apply` pach issue on existing bugs and patches.
14:43 cait                  i've never learned how to resolve these
14:43 cait                  so it's a little scary
14:43 ashimema              it's that applying bugzilla patches stuff that would be painful for a few months I think
14:43 thd                   The problem to not break links would also be about naming such that if the old would be renamed koha-legacy that itself would break links.
14:44 cait                  if we moved to gitlab or similar it woudl also get broken... links would be nice... but more concerned about the not applying now
14:44 ashimema              indeed thd.. though we could symlink 'koha' to 'koha-legacy' at the main koha git repo server end I believe..
14:44 cait                  how do you handle patches that don't apply developer side? with the sha1?
14:44 ashimema              and move forward with 'koha-core' and 'koha-i18n' or whatever as the new
14:45 ashimema              you can manually apply them cait.. though it doesn't always work nicely
14:45 cait                  what means manually apply?
14:46 ashimema              what you can often do is 'patch -p1 < failed_patch.patch'
14:46 cait                  hm if we do that change... I thnk we need to have that written up
14:47 ashimema              I can write something up to help with that pain.. but it certainly would cause pain to start with
14:47 cait                  and also have people helping others with rebasing
14:47 ashimema              indeed
14:48 ashimema              Joubu is keen to move forward and I'm keen to 'do it right'
14:48 cait                  I am not against doing it, but let's not rush
14:48 cait                  amybe we can make the page a bit clearer on suspected side effects
14:49 cait                  and do  a feedback round on the mailing list? (koha-devel)
14:49 ashimema              as in.. make sure the community are in agreement as to how and understand the repurcussions and benefits
14:49 ashimema              indeed
14:49 ashimema              I think I'll leave it as a standing topic whilst Joubu and I work on clarifying it all
14:49 ashimema              yeah, that's also a good idea cait
14:49 ashimema              shall we move onto the next topic for now?
14:50 ashimema              #info Martin will send something to the dev mailing list regarding git maintanence proposals
14:50 thd                   Given that the vast majority of the problem comes from translation history I presume that preserving translations monolithically would be liable to recreate the same problem for translations at a later point if not immediately.
14:50 ashimema              #info Martin will try to clarify the existing git splitting page
14:50 ashimema              #info We will keep this as a standing topic on the agenda whilst it's still in progress
14:51 ashimema              perhaps thd.. but it's a problem that will affect fewer people
14:52 ashimema              the main effects at this point in time are issues with devbox and things struggling to cope with the size of the main repo..
14:52 thd                   If a koha-legacy is created would it not be better to then also have separate repositories for each translation to constrain history size?
14:52 ashimema              in reality only the translation manager and rmaints/rm ever need to actually interact with the i18n repo at all
14:52 ashimema              hense 'they can cope'
14:53 thd                   ...ahh
14:53 ashimema              I don't believe it would win us much.. for the above reasons ;)
14:53 ashimema              it's only really the main repo for the majority of devs that we're worried about..
14:54 ashimema              example in point.. at the hackfests we often get a group of new devs all trying to clone our main repo at the same time..
14:54 ashimema              because it's huge and they're all doing it we often swamp the bandwidth of the local internet and everyone grinds to a halt
14:54 thd                   one can always imagine features which could have a high growth trajectory.
14:55 ashimema              a smaller repo would basically make that sort of problem go away
14:55 ashimema              instead of 'git clone -> go and have lunch' it would be 'git clone -> grab a cup of tea'
14:55 ashimema              hehe, indeed
14:55 ashimema              so......
14:55 wahanui               i think so is the koha ON the mac?
14:55 ashimema              moving on.. thanks for all the input and please keep mulling it over if you have any thoughts
14:56 ashimema              #topic Review of coding guidelines
14:56 thd                   We would need to be mindful of potential features which might lead to the same problem and create separate repositories for them when the growth curve becomes evident.
14:56 ashimema              #topc Using the Koha::Script base class
14:56 ashimema              #topic Using the Koha::Script base class
14:57 ashimema              correct thd
14:57 ashimema              So.. we introduced a base class for command line scripts with bug 22600, but neglected to add a guidline to ensure it's use going forward.
14:57 huginn`               Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=22600 blocker, P2, ---, martin.renvoize, RESOLVED FIXED, We should add an 'interface' field to accountlines
14:58 ashimema              As it stands, that base class basically sets up a consistent environment for scripts to run, so we get consistent action_logs for example from all cronjobs and maintanence scripts
14:58 ashimema              I propose to write such a guideline and take a vote on it next meeting (forgot to do a draft for this meeting)
14:59 cait                  +1
14:59 ashimema              #info We introduced a base class for scripts in bug 22600 - We should add a guideline to facilitate it's maintanence.
14:59 ashimema              :)
15:00 ashimema              ok.. I'll write it up for next meeting.. apologies I'm bhind
15:00 ashimema              next
15:00 * fridolin            goes to train, see you
15:00 ashimema              #topic Update to SQL12
15:00 ashimema              this one was another Joubu + tcohen one
15:00 ashimema              I'll try to explain though..
15:01 ashimema              We currently use TINYINT(1) in the database for any form of boolean.. but TINYINT(1) may also be used for other things which makes it hard for QA scripts to tell if it's meant to be a boolean or not
15:01 ashimema              and..
15:03 ashimema              qa people are missing cases where booleans are being introduced and not being appropraitely set in the DBIC classes (and as such the REST api is not converiting them to valid JSON::Booleans)
15:03 ashimema              I 'think' the discussion here was meant to ask 'What next'
15:03 ashimema              should we switch to something other than TINYINT(1) (BOOLEAN or BIT perhaps)
15:03 ashimema              or set a 'warning' type failure in the QA scripts and get the QA persons to decide whether it's an actual fail or not?
15:04 ashimema              thoughts?
15:04 * ashimema            wishes tcohen and Joubu were here
15:04 ashimema              met by silence.. another one to wait on the relevant parties I reckon
15:05 cait                  maybe
15:05 cait                  not quite the topic i know a lot about :)
15:05 ashimema              #info Further discussion postponed pending knowledable parties.
15:05 ashimema              #topic Revise JS guideline JS8 to recomment ESLint
15:05 thd                   I think that treating booleans as a numeric value has huge importance for future standards based support.
15:06 ashimema              oleonard around?
15:06 ashimema              this is his?
15:06 cait                  i think so
15:07 ashimema              MS SQL is about the only DB system that gets 'BOOLEAN' right as per the original intention of the SQL spec apparently
15:07 ashimema              thd ^
15:07 ashimema              I 'think' BIT is the closest other DB's have got
15:08 ashimema              OK, no oleonard and we've hit the 1 hour mark
15:08 ashimema              lets move onto the last topic
15:08 thd                   Well, if that is really correct and widely applicable for other contexts of Boolean use as well then great.  ... moving
15:08 ashimema              #info Posponed discussion as oleonard is absent
15:09 ashimema              #topic Set time of next meeting
15:09 ashimema              coming into summer now so I think we're going to be operating on a skeliton crew for the next few meetings
15:12 thd                   Is 24 July a useful date?
15:12 reiveune              bye
15:12 cait                  winter in nz :)
15:12 cait                  should work
15:13 ashimema              I think it'll be a short one.. but I do think it's good to have one in the diary every two weeks (we can always cancel the slot if there are no topics)
15:13 ashimema              so.. that would make it 24th July I believe
15:13 cait                  agreed
15:13 ashimema              and.. I'm trying to be good and line up so the NZ croud can attend.. so that puts it
15:14 ashimema              8pm BST
15:14 ashimema              19:00 UTC
15:14 ashimema              so...
15:15 cait                  too early
15:15 ashimema              24 July 2019, 19:00:00 UTC - Does that suit?
15:15 thd                   20 UTC is currently set for the general meeting but I think 19 UTC may be closer to what people favoured in the preferred times poll.
15:15 cait                  hm let me check quickly
15:16 cait                  i think 20 might work slightly better
15:16 ashimema              19UTC was what we did two weeks ago
15:16 cait                  because of daylight savings
15:16 cait                  10 hours from here to nz
15:16 cait                  20 utc should be 8 am
15:16 thd                   We have allowed meeting times to drift in the opposite direction of the survey times as summer time changes have come and gone.
15:16 ashimema              any objections anyone else
15:17 cait                  more likely to catch people at work
15:17 thd                   I prefer 19 UTC so no objection from me.
15:17 ashimema              sorry.. I meant objections to 20
15:18 thd                   I was trying to state that 19 UTC may be closer to what the time survey had indicated people favoured.
15:18 ashimema              20 is 9pm UK
15:19 ashimema              nothing say it needs to be on the hour.. perhaps 19:30 in a vane atempt to keep more people happy
15:19 thd                   I like 19.30 ;)
15:19 cait                  keep people on their toes ;)
15:20 ashimema              #info Next meeting: 24 July 2019, 19:30 UTC
15:20 ashimema              done :)
15:20 thd                   People may need special notice to show up not too early and leave :)
15:20 ashimema              thanks all
15:20 ashimema              #endmeeting
15:20 huginn`               Meeting ended Wed Jul 10 15:20:18 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
15:20 huginn`               Minutes:        http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/development_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-14.01.html
15:20 huginn`               Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/development_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-14.01.txt
15:20 huginn`               Log:            http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/development_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-14.01.log.html
15:21 eythian               ashimema: a suggestion: require a comment on the tinyint field that is "boolean" or "not boolean" and the tooling can use and enforce that.
15:21 ashimema              ohh.. why didn't I tihnk of that!
15:21 ashimema              great suggestion eythian
15:21 eythian               yw :)
15:21 thd                   eythian++
15:24 * ashimema            goes for :tea:
15:24 ashimema              thanks everyone
15:25 thd                   ashimema: I have learnt not to trust any SQL type special storage of values.  Store the numbers or strings so that they come out the way they came in, however, with booleans maybe that is a legacy coding practise preference of mine.
15:25 eythian               mysql has no boolean type, and traditionally tinyint(1) is used for that.
15:26 eythian               actually
15:26 eythian               that's not totally true
15:26 thd                   So I thought, what was the claim in the meeting though?
15:26 eythian               it has a "boolean" type that is a synonym for "tinyint(1)"
15:27 eythian               The problem can be that Perl is pretty happily wishy-washy about what is what type, it'll make it look right.
15:27 eythian               This is a problem when serialising for stricter formats.
15:27 eythian               (I once crashed many, many phones by getting that wrong.)
15:29 thd                   Yes, Perl and other weakly typed languages framed my preferences for preferred data typing of booleans at least.
15:35 thd                   Documenting type strongly allows for data exchange between strongly and weakly typed languages, although, I could see a case for downconverting of data type strength.
17:43 tcohen                hi all
18:36 mtompset              Greetings, #koha.
18:36 mtompset              @seen cait
18:36 huginn`               mtompset: cait was last seen in #koha 3 hours, 17 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <cait> keep people on their toes ;)
18:37 mtompset              Are you here, cait?
18:38 mtompset              @later tell cait I noticed that there is a HOLD_SLIP in fr-CA that isn't in en. Should it be?
18:38 huginn`               mtompset: The operation succeeded.
18:38 cait                  probably not
18:38 cait                  but wondering, i think we have a hold slip
18:39 mtompset              bug 17469
18:39 huginn`               Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=17469 normal, P5 - low, ---, caitlingoodger.student, CLOSED FIXED, fr-CA web installer is missing some sample notices
18:39 cait                  http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git&a=search&h=HEAD&st=grep&s=HOLD_SLIP
18:39 cait                  are you sure it's not in en?
18:40 mtompset              let me recheck... maybe my grep was bad.
18:41 mtompset              DOH! Underscore.
18:41 mtompset              Let me fix my grep. :)
18:42 cait                  there is also a test, i think in xt
18:42 cait                  checking for notices
18:45 mtompset              cait++ # there is an xt test.
18:46 cait                  maybe check if it covers the new installer
18:47 cait                  fr-CA
20:00 cait                  meeting time?
20:01 Charles_Quain         Hi there
20:01 cait                  hey Charles_Quain - how are you doing?
20:01 Charles_Quain         Good thanks. How are things with you?
20:01 cait                  busy but improving
20:02 Charles_Quain         busy is good - at least I try to convince myself of that!
20:02 cait                  ashimema: rangi?
20:02 wahanui               rangi is a pretty big get
20:02 rangi                 hmm?
20:02 cait                  Charles_Quain: :)
20:02 rangi                 what did i do now?
20:02 cait                  wondering who is around for general meeting
20:03 cait                  nothing, just noticed you logging in
20:03 ashimema              Late apologies, looking after ill family
20:03 rangi                 ah yep, i can do a kohacon20 update
20:03 ashimema              Sorry guys
20:04 cait                  oh no
20:04 cait                  hope they will feel better soon
20:04 cait                  should I chair?
20:04 cait                  we can have a quick one
20:04 rangi                 yep
20:04 cait                  #startmeeting General IRC meeting 10 July 2019
20:04 huginn`               Meeting started Wed Jul 10 20:04:27 2019 UTC.  The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:04 huginn`               Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
20:04 huginn`               The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting_10_july_2019'
20:04 cait                  #topic Introductions
20:04 cait                  Please introduce yourself using #info
20:04 cait                  #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_10_July_2019 Today's agenda
20:04 cait                  #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
20:05 rangi                 #info Chris Cormack, Catalyst IT, NZ
20:05 Charles_Quain         #info Charles Quain, Interleaf Technology
20:05 * ashimema            tries to listen in
20:05 ashimema              #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS-E
20:05 bag                   #info Brendan Gallagher, ByWater
20:05 ashimema              thanks for stepping into the breach cait
20:05 rangi                 can we add kohacon20 to the agenda cait ?
20:05 cait                  no worries
20:05 cait                  yep
20:05 cait                  do you want to add it to wiki?
20:05 rangi                 just at the end is fine
20:05 rangi                 will do
20:05 thd                   #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
20:05 cait                  thx
20:06 Charles_Quain         And add what to do with the KohaCon19 surplus?
20:06 cait                  ok, so maybe a Kohacon19/20 then :)
20:06 cait                  moving on
20:06 cait                  ah, waiting for davidnind
20:06 cait                  last chance to #info everyone :)
20:07 davidnind             #info David Nind, New Zealand
20:07 cait                  #topic Announcements
20:07 davidnind             just...
20:07 cait                  Any announcements?
20:07 rangi                 Charles_Quain: i had an idea about that, we can come to it when we get to the kohacon topic ;)
20:07 bag                   Bring Guinness :)
20:07 rangi                 heh
20:07 cait                  nothing going on? :)
20:08 cait                  Koha US maybe?
20:08 rangi                 just a really busy year for all koha support companies it seems
20:08 cait                  has it ever been different? :)
20:08 rangi                 nope :)
20:08 cait                  #info Registration for koha-US conference is open https://koha-us.org/2019/07/01/kohaus-conference-registration-open/
20:08 ashimema              Caroline was going to update us as to how the education meeting went wasn't she
20:08 bag                   There is a kohaus conference in September
20:08 davidnind             #info Hackfest 2019 30 September to 4th Octoberhttps://lists.katipo.co.nz/pipermail/koha/2019-July/053277.html
20:08 bag                   cait++
20:09 ashimema              oh.. she's also in the apologies
20:09 cait                  ah great, thx davidnind
20:09 bag                   hackfest is a great one to attend if you get a chance
20:09 cait                  true
20:09 rangi                 one day
20:09 cait                  moving on
20:09 cait                  #topic Update on releases
20:09 cait                  i'll repeat from earlier today
20:10 cait                  #info Maintenance releases are moving along nicely
20:10 cait                  wizzyrea: want to add something?
20:10 cait                  ok, moving on :)
20:11 cait                  ah, rmaints dropping in
20:11 ashimema              #info Moving into pushing small to medium sized enhancements on master now - out of bugfix only freeze period :)
20:11 cait                  cool :)
20:11 cait                  moving on now
20:12 cait                  #topic Wiki
20:12 wizzyrea              #info Liz Rea
20:12 cait                  all eyes on agenda - reading quickly now :)
20:13 davidnind             We discussed at the documentation meeting, but my memory has faded already...
20:14 cait                  In general I think we discussed updating to a recent version
20:14 cait                  I'd like us to think about even restarting
20:14 thd                   I added some contents to the wiki section of the agenda correcting for some mistaken notions.  I have not added something appropriate to the wiki update bug yet.
20:14 cait                  i don't quit eshare the thought that stuff should never be deleted
20:14 rangi                 yeah
20:14 cait                  I tihnk we might want to consider a restart
20:15 ashimema              1.16 dates back to 2011
20:15 thd                   The problem with MediaWiki deletion is that it does not leave a history.
20:15 davidnind             bug 23073
20:15 huginn`               Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23073 normal, P5 - low, ---, gmc, NEW , wiki.koha-community.org needs updating to a later version
20:15 Nemo_bis              it doesn't? O_o
20:15 cait                  #info current wiki version is 1.16, dating back to 2011
20:15 Nemo_bis              history is only deleted if the purge archive maintenance script is run
20:15 cait                  hi Nemo_bis, thx for chiming in
20:16 cait                  could you detail? so deleted pages could be recovered?
20:16 Nemo_bis              aka https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:DeleteArchivedRevisions.php
20:16 thd                   Ok, maybe I am mistaken.  I know the big issue about which people complained when it has happened on Wikipedia.
20:16 ashimema              that was my understanding too Nemo_bis, but I thought I might be out of date.. thanks for varifying
20:16 Nemo_bis              unless you delete directly from the database, yes
20:16 cait                  so what are peoples thoughts?
20:17 cait                  I think we can agree on 'needing a newer version'?
20:17 cait                  update or restart?
20:17 rangi                 i dont mind either way, whatever is quicker
20:17 ashimema              my feeling is that a large percentage of the current wiki content is actually more misleading than helpful
20:17 rangi                 before we lose everything
20:17 cait                  rangi: lose everything?
20:17 thd                   I think that it would be easier to organise the existing content than start over.
20:18 thd                   The big issue is migrating the database.
20:18 rangi                 cait: when someone exploits a 8 year old bug/hole and trashes the server
20:18 ashimema              could we start afresh but leave the old one running for a while in case we do decide we want to migrate any particular pages?
20:18 cait                  rangi: makes sense... although i hope we have backups somewhere
20:18 rangi                 ashimema: id agree with that
20:18 cait                  yeah, i was thinking something along these lines
20:18 cait                  hand-pick the good stuff
20:18 bag                   I think gmcharlt - y’all are hosting that right?  (I can’t remember)
20:18 bag                   I’m sure they have backups
20:18 cait                  equinox for the wiki, yep
20:19 gmcharlt              yep
20:19 * cait                jumps
20:19 bag                   yeah they definitely have backups
20:19 rangi                 backups are great as long as you notice it happening :)
20:19 bag                   heya galen
20:19 gmcharlt              howdy
20:19 wahanui               privet, gmcharlt
20:19 bag                   true
20:19 thd                   There may be backups but backups are only as good as the testing of those backups.
20:19 rangi                 otherwsie you back up the mess too :)
20:20 rangi                 but yeah i would agree with ashimema
20:20 cait                  gmcharlt: have you read back? we were discussion about updating the wiki
20:20 cait                  or... starting afresh on a new version
20:20 gmcharlt              I'm amenable both to upgrading it and to starting fresh, preferably on something other than mediawiki
20:20 rangi                 gmcharlt++
20:20 cait                  do you have something in mind?
20:20 thd                   We could maintain the old content in an archived format which would not allow exploiting any MediaWiki bugs.
20:21 cait                  another software I mean
20:21 gmcharlt              cait: dokuwiki, actually, for sake of simplicity, but I'm certainly open to other suggestions
20:21 ashimema              We should be able to put the old one into read only (even if only at the db level) and still be able to get at the wiki markup of pages to grab the best bits manually as required.. I would imagine after a few months all the most helpful content would have been migrated
20:21 cait                  I still run my own dokuwiki... so I wouldn't mind
20:22 Nemo_bis              upgrading from MediaWiki 1.16 is not very hard
20:22 cait                  but that's not radically different to what we have now :)
20:22 Nemo_bis              I can help with it if needed
20:22 ashimema              oh.. I'd not even considered using another wiki platform.. more than happy to be guided by others on that front
20:22 thd                   Direct updating without first migrating to MySQL will probably reach a deadend for some state of MediaWiki software and certainly prevent many proposed extensions etc. from working.
20:22 cait                  what is it running on now? postgres?
20:22 thd                   yes
20:23 thd                   It was an historical mistake when a test became the only wiki running.
20:23 ashimema              what puts you off mediawiki gmcharlt ?
20:23 cait                  #info current Mediawiki is running on PostgreSQL
20:24 ashimema              I've found the recent editors in mediawiki pretty straighforward
20:24 rangi                 its big, its heavy, its wood
20:24 gmcharlt              and we ended up inadvertantly on a less-well-supported path with running on on Pg
20:24 Nemo_bis              PostgreSQL is still officially supported, so any upgrade error would be a welcome bug report and is usually fixed (but yes, not necessarily fun)
20:25 gmcharlt              I'm not strongly against it, but in (in comparison) have found dokuwiki sufficient for Evergreen's needs
20:25 thd                   The problem is not that Postgres is not supported at all.  It is less well supported than MySQL.
20:25 Nemo_bis              thd: no doubt about that :)
20:25 cait                  #idea Change of wiki platform, for example to DokuWiki (no database needed, easier to maintain)
20:25 Nemo_bis              A couple extensions here are not supported any more but I'm not sure they're in wide use https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Special:Version
20:25 gmcharlt              though of course, for both projects, there's certainly always the perpetual problem of wanting as much wiki librarian cycles as we can get to keep content fresh and organized
20:26 bag                   good point
20:26 cait                  wiki librarian cycles?
20:26 thd                   I found docuwiki to have huge problems where it had become unmanageable with unlinked content and lacking the level of features provided by MediaWiki.
20:26 gmcharlt              and I /don't/ belive that mediawiki vs dokuwiki makes a great deal of difference as far as that's concerned
20:26 Nemo_bis              dokuwiki's simplicity is often deceptive more than real (but I'm a biased MediaWiki person of course)
20:26 bag                   a curator?
20:27 thd                   However, MediaWiki was supposed to be a test.
20:27 bag                   any wiki is as good as the content and organization
20:27 cait                  I think we don't use a lot of the features right now
20:27 cait                  maybe the templating things
20:27 Nemo_bis              A first step then would be to reduce the complexity of the installation
20:27 cait                  i am not aware that Dokuwiki has that
20:27 Nemo_bis              Do you really need SemanticMediaWiki, for instance?
20:27 cait                  Nemo_bis: I'd say no
20:28 cait                  ok, next steps?
20:28 thd                   If we migrate to MySQL or start over with MediaWiki we could then add SemanticMediaWiKi which has much to support the work of keeping everything in good order.
20:28 rangi                 yeah i dont think lack of features has ever been an issue, more no one is cleaning dead/wrong content
20:28 ashimema              I believe our use of semanticmediawiki is broken anyway
20:29 * ashimema            agrees with rangi
20:29 gmcharlt              yeah, tooling goes but so far w/o concentrated wikilibrarian/curator effort
20:29 thd                   We do not have any use of SemanticMediaWiki other than it may have been installed.
20:29 ashimema              though.. on the few occasions I've tried to maintain I found our version of mediawiki challenging to organise
20:30 ashimema              we really need somewhat of a plan for organising content from day one and a guide for new submissions
20:30 * ashimema            curated a few wiki's over the years.. including openstreetmaps one
20:30 gmcharlt              ashimema: so, a question for you: how many folks would you want with you in a committed curator corps?
20:30 thd                   Organisation is really about assigning tags and categories which mostly never happened when we were using Docuwiki.
20:31 cait                  ashimema is RM currently... so not sure we hsould lay more on him
20:31 ashimema              As much as I love SemanticMediaWiki, I don't feel we need the added complexity it adds on day one
20:31 cait                  but i know the docs team was interested
20:31 cait                  davidnind: ?
20:31 ashimema              haha
20:31 ashimema              happy to help and guide.. but yeah.. i've low on tuits being RM and all ;)
20:31 cait                  actually this was brought over as a topic from docs meeting
20:31 bag                   gmcharlt and all - I think this is a good topic to bring up during that new “trainers” sub-group that is going
20:31 davidnind             the discussion was around getting someone to do it, which is the bit that is missing at the moment
20:31 bag                   or what cait said
20:31 ashimema              Nemo_bis sounds very knowledgable.. sounds like a good condidate?
20:32 thd                   MediaWiki makes it very easy to find lost content to tag and categorise it.  Docuwiki did not seem to have any way to identify such unlinked content.
20:32 Nemo_bis              ah yes, MediaWiki is good for obsessive taggers :)
20:32 ashimema              davidnind, do you have any sort of proposals/notions of what content belongs where?
20:33 ashimema              what exactly do we want a wiki for (bearing in mind the efforts going into the manual etc)
20:33 cait                  ok, I think maybe we need to break here with osme #actions for next meeting?
20:33 thd                   In Docuwiki most of our content could only be found by searching in the dark with respect to the actual content.
20:33 cait                  #agreed current wiki software is way out of date and we need to remedy that
20:33 davidnind             not really, but I think we need a plan - whihc I'm happy to help with/lead
20:33 ashimema              good plan cait
20:34 * ashimema            is enjoying the distraction from playing nurse
20:34 cait                  gmcharlt: as you are currently running Mediawiki - what woudl we need to do?
20:34 ashimema              first action right there cait.. david has offered to help create a plan :)
20:34 cait                  davidnind: you ok to be named 'lead of wiki update'?
20:34 gmcharlt              ashimema: since I think we have a consensus (?) about starting fressh
20:35 davidnind             cait: yep, ties in with documentation well
20:35 cait                  we should also decide on naming releases after muppets today *hides*
20:35 gmcharlt              first task I think would be carving out hosting some where with a fresh mediawiki/dokuwiki/out-come-of-rock-paper-scissors-wiki install
20:35 davidnind             cait++
20:35 cait                  #action davidnind named as 'lead of wiki update' - will try and help get a plan down
20:35 gmcharlt              (and potentially see if there's other stuff that trainers/docs would want?)
20:36 cait                  gmcharlt: would Equinox be willing to continue hosting?
20:36 ashimema              gmcharlt: Agree entirely
20:36 gmcharlt              cait: yep, we'd will willing to set up another VM and host $newwiki
20:36 cait                  #info Equinox willing to continue hosting the wiki
20:37 cait                  #info Consensus on starting fresh with a plan to keep things organized
20:37 cait                  #info Wiki software to be discussed (continue with new Mediawiki, use Dokuwiki, use $wiki)
20:37 thd                   We might do what was suddenly not done when the old wiki went down which was to test different possibilities and choose what seems to work best with actual testing.
20:37 cait                  #action add Wiki and requirements/wish list for future to next educator's meeting
20:38 cait                  maybe if we have a wiki page set up we could collect some ideas
20:38 cait                  ok, so far so good?
20:38 cait                  i'd move on then
20:38 davidnind             great
20:39 cait                  #topic Update/obsolete installation guides on wiki
20:39 cait                  davidnind: could you?
20:39 davidnind             my brain is mush today
20:39 ashimema              thanks all for that.. very productive
20:39 thd                   #MESSAGE gmcharlt gmcharlt: I would like to update my ssh access to preserve some things which may otherwise be lost to history.
20:40 davidnind             the idea I think was to have a 'proper' installation guide
20:40 davidnind             either on the wiki or separately as part of the manual
20:40 cait                  we have a lot of htem right now, but I think we only link a few in release notes
20:40 davidnind             there are so many guides available when you goodle it
20:40 ashimema              I'd vote for in the manual
20:40 davidnind             google it
20:41 cait                  it often leads to issues when people follow hte ones outside of the wiki... but the wiki ones can be tricky too
20:41 davidnind             wherever it is we need to keep current (as most things documentation)
20:41 cait                  #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Installation_Documentation Release notes link to this page for installation guides
20:42 ashimema              one install guide for the majority and in the manual and other guides should be categorized into development install types
20:42 davidnind             I'm working through the main ones at the moment on the wiki (Debian + Ubuntu packages)
20:42 thd                   The manual should be primary but there should always be room for details, comments, etc. in the wiki which could not fit in a clear manual.
20:42 ashimema              in reality it feels like we've reached a maturity level in the project where there is really only one 'recommended' install type
20:42 ashimema              the others are all developer oriented
20:43 davidnind             thd: good idea - there are always lost of nuances
20:43 rangi                 ashimema: yes
20:43 davidnind             so is everyone okay with this approach, and we work out the details of the best way to do this
20:43 cait                  we are talking packages right?
20:43 rangi                 davidnind: i am
20:44 ashimema              me too
20:44 gmcharlt              speaking of isntallation, I think we must come up with a better use for old Apollo guidance computers than mining bitcoin
20:44 cait                  #info Package installation is the recommended installation method
20:44 gmcharlt              obvious, I hope folks get inspired to work on a Koha port ;)
20:44 davidnind             my tape machine no longer works...
20:45 cait                  so suggestions?
20:45 cait                  hi caroline_catlady :)
20:46 caroline_catlady      hi! did I miss the meeting?
20:46 davidnind             either a separate official guide or part of the manual, with a place somewhere (wiki?) for notes and variations
20:46 cait                  we tasked you with everything noone else wanted to do ;)
20:46 caroline_catlady      hehe!
20:46 cait                  ok, so one official installation gude focused on packages?
20:46 davidnind             :)
20:46 davidnind             ++
20:46 cait                  #idea have one official installation guide for a package installation, variations for devs in the wiki
20:47 davidnind             success will be the official guide is the first google/bing/duckduck go result :)
20:47 cait                  #info remember to change links in the release note scripts once in place
20:47 cait                  is someone willing to clean up the package install gude for the manual?
20:48 davidnind             I'm working through that with a local vm
20:48 cait                  feeling slightly bad about tasking you again, but I will
20:48 rangi                 cool davidnind
20:48 davidnind             will probably pester dev list with questions I have that don't make sense to me
20:48 Nemo_bis              (Meanwhile, Debian packages are the best way to install MediaWiki as well, if you are on Debian. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Legoktm/Packages )
20:48 cait                  #action davidnind working through installation guide currently for updating
20:49 cait                  ok, moving on to last topic for tonight?
20:49 cait                  davidnind++ too
20:49 cait                  #topic Koha Community Project Day
20:49 cait                  this was a last minute addition form me
20:50 cait                  was thining about how to wake things up a bit
20:50 cait                  we are all crazy busy so it's hard to make progress on stuff
20:50 cait                  maybe if set a date and people put down possible projects/tasks... things they want to work on
20:50 caroline_catlady      like a virtual hackfest?
20:50 cait                  yeah a bit
20:50 davidnind             was wanting to do a doc sprint at some stage (outstanding action point for me), maybe over a week
20:50 cait                  not only focused on bugs
20:51 cait                  clean up wiki pages... check website content... could be anything
20:51 cait                  write a new plugin
20:51 bag                   check_website_content++
20:51 ashimema              cait++
20:51 cait                  would that be something people would like to participate in?
20:51 Charles_Quain         sounds like a great idea
20:52 davidnind             maybe a theme for each month and a 24 hour day, or a day a month with people working on whatever strikes their fancy?
20:52 rangi                 yep
20:52 rangi                 like the bug squash magnuse used to run
20:52 cait                  yep, just a bit broader
20:52 cait                  not only bug squashing
20:52 lukeG                 sounds awesome
20:53 ashimema              I wish we had more ways/better ways to reward and therefore incentivise people to do more
20:53 cait                  it's true
20:53 cait                  so... maybe starting with a doodle to find a date?
20:53 cait                  and people interested?
20:53 cait                  i could try to set that up this or beginning of next week
20:53 ashimema              probably at a company level.. I see alot of individuals really committed but it's often also a battle for those people to justify working on the less obviously rewarding to companies work
20:54 * caroline_catlady    thinks saving kittens is a pretty good incentive
20:54 cait                  i feel we also got a lot of other thing sstuck
20:54 ashimema              for short run things I agree caroline
20:54 cait                  so testing out wikis and thinking about structure could also be a project
20:54 rangi                 i think the thing is to pick a date a little way out, and just say thats it
20:54 cait                  ok, i coudl do that
20:54 rangi                 then companies/people can organise to be free that day
20:54 ashimema              and those short bursts certainly get things moving.. so I'm totally game for them
20:54 davidnind             agree
20:54 cait                  among people here... any preferneces for hte day of week?
20:54 rangi                 eaiser than trying to find a day that works
20:55 Charles_Quain         I dont like Wedensdays
20:55 cait                  noted
20:55 ashimema              InLibro already have community fridays don't they?
20:55 ashimema              and we loosly have fridays as a more flexible day
20:56 cait                  friday means a bit late for kiwis... unelss they make it their thursday
20:56 davidnind             apologies have to go to 'important' work meeting, have my support for doing this
20:56 cait                  thx davidnind!
20:56 rangi                 thanks davidnind
20:56 caroline_catlady      for sure fridays are best for us, since it's already our community work day
20:56 cait                  we could do a 'friday' whereever
20:56 rangi                 do a friday in your timezone
20:57 cait                  ok
20:57 cait                  so like the gbsd
20:57 rangi                 yep
20:57 rangi                 then we get almost 48 hours of work :)
20:57 cait                  august 9 too late?
20:57 ashimema              yup
20:57 cait                  july 26
20:58 cait                  well.. might be a different date for osme... need to figure that out
20:58 cait                  we got 2 more minutes meeting time, I will start to look for next date and time while you ponder
20:58 ashimema              I like July 26th
20:58 ashimema              but I'm game for either realy
20:59 cait                  August 14
20:59 cait                  13 UTC?
20:59 cait                  I'll aim for july 26th preparing something this weekend
21:00 rangi                 sounds good
21:00 cait                  at least writing a draft for the mailing list mail :)
21:00 ashimema              +1
21:00 cait                  ok, ending soon
21:00 rangi                 if there is a community 'official' event it's easier for us to get our bosses to let us work on it :)
21:01 cait                  I'll try to make it look most official then :)
21:01 cait                  #topic Next meeting
21:01 cait                  wah kohacon
21:01 cait                  #topic Update on KohaCon
21:01 cait                  sorry
21:01 cait                  rangi?
21:01 wahanui               rangi is a pretty big get
21:01 thd                   :)
21:01 bag                   kohacon++
21:01 cait                  i forgot to refresh the wiki page.. sorr
21:02 cait                  Charles_Quain: still awake too?
21:02 rangi                 right, so the site is in softlaunch, 2020.kohacon.org  it will be launch launched in a week or 2
21:02 Charles_Quain         Yep
21:02 bag                   cait - it’s only 1400
21:02 bag                   ;)
21:02 rangi                 we have a venue booked, the national library of NZ
21:02 cait                  #info KohaCon website will be officially launched in a week or 2
21:03 rangi                 shortly we will be asking for volunteers to be part of the programme committee
21:03 cait                  #info venue is the National Library of NZ
21:03 Charles_Quain         We have the (strangely precise) amount of €2386 left over from KohaCon19. Looking for ideas on how to use it to best advantage
21:03 rangi                 we are going to do the 3+1+1+2 format this time
21:03 cait                  #info Asking volunteers on the programme committee soon
21:03 rangi                 3 days talks, 1 day culture, 1 day workshops, 2 days working together
21:03 ashimema              3,1,1,2?
21:04 ashimema              ta
21:04 rangi                 trying to get the best of both worlds the workshops from kohacon19 and the hackfest from kohacon18 :)
21:05 cait                  what's first, workshop day or excursion?
21:05 Charles_Quain         so tricky to get the balance right
21:05 ashimema              +1
21:05 rangi                 excursion
21:05 bag                   Charles_Quain: sponsorship for attending KohaCon20?
21:05 rangi                 we are trying to be tricky
21:05 rangi                 bag: thats exactly what i was going to suggest
21:05 cait                  #info format will be 3 + 1 + 1  + 2 = conference + excursion + workshops + hackfest
21:06 Charles_Quain         Would it be enough?
21:06 rangi                 Charles_Quain: it could be part
21:06 bag                   like the program committe accepts scholar accplications
21:06 ashimema              I reckon you have an advantage geographically for such a layout.. it's not as tempting to 'just head home early'
21:06 bag                   sorry for spelling :(
21:06 rangi                 i think it would be good to use to see if can get some irish librarians to come, at least to help
21:06 bag                   great idea
21:07 Charles_Quain         I'm completely open as to what to do with it.
21:07 rangi                 ashimema: yep, and by putting the workshop after excursion easier to get ppl to not miss it too :)
21:07 ashimema              indeed
21:08 rangi                 Charles_Quain: 500 euro would cover a weeks accomodation in wellington comfortably
21:08 Charles_Quain         How would we select a delegate?
21:08 ashimema              I like the idea of conference money going to conference stuff.. so that ticks my boxes :)
21:08 rangi                 if it was a supplement, it would be for someone who is already committed to go?
21:09 rangi                 i havent fully thought this through :)
21:09 bag                   we could decide on that later - maybe get the committee together and they can figure that out?
21:09 rangi                 but I was going to make it your problem to award the supplements Charles_Quain heheh
21:09 rangi                 or at least the kohacon19 team
21:09 rangi                 since you raised it :)
21:09 Charles_Quain         It does make sense to use cash from one year to support the next
21:10 ashimema              something Todd may be helpful with bag?
21:10 ashimema              has he any experience in such things
21:10 bag                   Todd would definitely be on that
21:10 kathryn               Hello, I have to confess, I've been lurking and can't stay quiet any longer :D
21:10 Charles_Quain         I'd have to recuse myself from the selection process - I know them all too well!
21:10 bag                   some experince - but he’d do the research to make it fair
21:10 cait                  kathryn: finally!
21:11 kathryn               I was thinking awards could have priority for speakers and Koha contributors
21:11 kathryn               hehe
21:11 Charles_Quain         That sounds fair
21:12 * ashimema            would go along with 'the needy who are willing/wanting to contribute'
21:12 kathryn               yes that too
21:13 cait                  maybe people can think this over and we come back to that next time with more ideas?
21:13 rangi                 yup
21:13 rangi                 another idea, that isnt fully formed too
21:13 kathryn               yup!
21:13 ashimema              +1
21:13 cait                  #info Discussion on how to use the money raised at KohaCon19 to be continued
21:13 ashimema              meanwhile I'm sure that money is in a safe account ;)
21:14 rangi                 we are planning to try to get sponsorship from outside the koha support company world
21:14 Charles_Quain         "Resting in my account" is the phrase
21:14 rangi                 we'd much rather you all use that money to come/send people
21:14 cait                  :)
21:14 kathryn               your presence, not presents ;)
21:15 rangi                 exactly
21:15 bag                   but I’d still love some Guinness
21:15 ashimema              :)
21:15 cait                  feel free to #info any of that :)
21:15 rangi                 if you send a person, you get a logo :)
21:15 rangi                 so can still have a nice list of logos on the sponsorship page :)
21:15 cait                  rangi: can I info that?
21:15 kathryn               that's a cool idea rangi
21:16 cait                  or #idea it
21:16 rangi                 cait: sure why not :)
21:16 cait                  #idea If you send a person, you get a logo (your presence not presents)
21:16 cait                  anything else?
21:16 rangi                 thats it from me
21:16 rangi                 anything from you kathryn ?
21:17 kathryn               probably save it for a first conference meeting
21:17 kathryn               I have a lot of ideas and reckons
21:18 kathryn               in short, no thanks!
21:18 cait                  :)
21:18 bag                   we are only 15 months away ;)
21:18 cait                  #topic Next meeting
21:18 cait                  short chance for veto: August 14th (second Wednesday) 13 UTC
21:19 cait                  #info Next meeting: 14 August 2019, 13 UTC
21:19 cait                  #endmeeting
21:19 huginn`               Meeting ended Wed Jul 10 21:19:35 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
21:19 huginn`               Minutes:        http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/general_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-20.04.html
21:19 huginn`               Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/general_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-20.04.txt
21:19 huginn`               Log:            http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/general_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-20.04.log.html
21:19 cait                  thx all!
21:19 caroline_catlady      cait++
21:20 kathryn               thanks cait and for accepting my late arrival!
21:20 Charles_Quain         night all.
21:20 cait                  kathryn: you know you don't have to hold back, right? you can always talk here :)
21:20 ashimema              cait++
21:20 ashimema              thanks
21:20 kathryn               yeah I wasn't sure about crashing the meeting after #info !
21:21 ashimema              always say hi ;)
21:21 cait                  we don't mind
21:21 kathryn               thanks :)
21:23 kathryn               nearly time for a less-interesting meeting - seeyas!
21:23 cait                  caroline_catlady: noticed something odd today: https://koha-community.org/manual/19.05/en/html/
21:24 cait                  says 19.05 in the tiele (and Hello?) but 18.11 at the top
21:24 cait                  tiele=title
21:26 ashimema              meeting script run.. so we should have entries in the calendar and wiki for the next one now
21:26 ashimema              have a good one #koha
21:26 cait                  night :)
21:27 caroline_crazycatlady hotel wifi is crap, I suddenly became crazycatlady!
21:29 caroline_crazycatlady currently in beautiful Val-d'Or (in my dad's birth region) training the public library staff https://goo.gl/maps/ngwCXikaeEE5sesAA
21:30 cait                  nice!
21:32 caroline_crazycatlady Val d'Or in french means Valley of gold
21:35 cait                  :)
21:38 cait                  night all
21:53 davidnind             cait++
21:56 davidnind             cait: I can see what you mean about 18.11 and 19.05, will see if I can figure it out this evening when I get home (unless it gets fixed before then)
22:44 caroline_crazycatlady does anybody actually use the "Allow changes from" drop-down when creating a list? Especially the "Nobody" option makes absolutely no sense to me
23:24 thd                   rangi: Do you have a moment to give me an email address?