Time Nick Message 06:36 reiveune hello 06:36 wahanui what's up, reiveune 06:45 calire morning 07:30 cait good morning #koha 08:24 ashimema mornin' 13:58 ashimema next meeting? 13:58 wahanui next meeting is https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Next_IRC_meetings 14:01 ashimema #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 10 July 2019 14:01 huginn` Meeting started Wed Jul 10 14:01:38 2019 UTC. The chair is ashimema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:01 huginn` Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 14:01 huginn` The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_10_july_2019' 14:01 ashimema #chair cait 14:01 huginn` Current chairs: ashimema cait 14:01 ashimema #topic Introductions 14:02 thd #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 14:02 ashimema #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe 14:03 fridolin #info Fridolin Somers, Biblibre France 14:03 ashimema #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Development_IRC_meeting_10_July_2019 Agenda 14:04 ashimema I'm sure cait was here a minute ago 14:05 cait oh yes 14:05 ashimema coudl be a short one if that's all we've got 14:05 cait #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 14:06 * cait pings random people 14:06 cait rmaints? 14:06 wahanui rmaints is fridolin, lucas and wizzyrea 14:06 fridolin all is good 14:06 cait khall bag tcohen 14:06 fridolin sorry I'm a bit late on backport 14:06 cait Joubu 14:06 ashimema #topic Announcements 14:07 cait nothing fromme 14:07 fridolin I made a new plugin https://github.com/biblibre/koha-plugin-theme-intranet-lsd 14:07 ashimema #info The first set of maintanence releases have gone out since the last meeting.. Thanks to the RMaints :) 14:07 * tcohen is heading downtown, sorry 14:08 ashimema lol 14:08 ashimema moving on then 14:08 ashimema #topic Update from the Release manager 14:09 ashimema Things are ticking along... I'm currently blocked by failing tests on Jenkins but have tcohen on the case (as I've reached a dead end with my own efforts) 14:09 ashimema teamwork++ 14:10 ashimema that's pretty much it from me.. 14:10 ashimema #topic Updates from the Release Maintainers 14:11 ashimema rmaints? 14:11 wahanui rmaints is, like, fridolin, lucas and wizzyrea 14:11 * ashimema grr, forgot to info my update 14:11 cait heh 14:11 wizzyrea #info liz rea 14:12 wizzyrea things are going along from my point of view 14:12 ashimema any updates fridolin 14:12 ashimema or wizzyrea 14:12 wahanui i heard wizzyrea was very glad the git repo is reliably working todya 14:13 fridolin nothing special in 19.05.x 14:13 wizzyrea nothing special in 18.05.x 14:13 fridolin sorry i'm a bit late on pushing 14:13 ashimema no worries :) 14:13 ashimema ok.. moving onto QA then 14:13 cait #info maintenance releases are moving along nicely 14:13 ashimema #topic Updates from the QA team 14:13 cait we are a bit low on QA time right now is my general feeling 14:14 cait #info Number of bad bugs on the dashboard are too high - 3 blockers, 4 criticals, 22 majors 14:14 wizzyrea ohh that's gross 14:14 * wizzyrea makes a note 14:14 cait #info Please focus on bugs for now if time is low - we need to make sure they are taken care of 14:15 cait it's not only QA there, missing patches, SO.... a mix 14:15 cait so really everyone can help there ;) 14:15 * ashimema would be interested to see a graph of QA activity over a few cycles.. it would be interesting to see if there's a patturn to the ebbs adn flows 14:15 wizzyrea :D 14:15 cait I think it feels like the European summer 'hole' right now 14:15 cait probably a German term 14:15 wizzyrea yeah it's holiday time 14:16 cait things just slow down a lot - but it's a little unnerving for those who are still here :) 14:16 ashimema admitedly only three of those are in the QA queue right now.. 14:16 cait I've also inlcuded some new contributors in my weekly QA email, there are quite a few in NSO 14:16 cait please be nice 14:16 cait #info Be nice to people starting out - new contributors :) 14:16 ashimema there's a few in NSO and more in need of some code submitting 14:17 cait ashimema: that's correct - it's really an all-community-task 14:17 cait wizzyrea: i'd be happy if you could start with this one - bug 23293 14:17 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23293 normal, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , OPACFineNoRenewals compares against 'balance' not 'outstanding' 14:17 cait argh 14:17 cait bug 23283 14:17 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23283 critical, P5 - low, ---, lucas, Needs Signoff , cannot view/edit additional attributes in 18.11.x 14:18 ashimema I'll try to take on one or two of the 'Major' ones still without code 14:18 wizzyrea ah right 14:18 wizzyrea which solution there do we like better 14:18 wizzyrea the 2nd? 14:18 wahanui the 2nd is the staff interface 14:19 cait i think it's only one patch now 14:19 cait it seems to include the change mark made - but please double check 14:20 wizzyrea oh right 14:20 wizzyrea yep ok 14:20 cait nothing more from me 14:20 cait hit me up if you have a spare moment and need inspiration :) 14:21 ashimema okies, moving on then 14:21 ashimema #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...) 14:21 ashimema we have a few to go through 14:21 ashimema do we have alex_a around? 14:22 corilynn I haven't seen him since last week, ashimema 14:22 wizzyrea holidayyyyys 14:22 ashimema #topic Mana-KB Workflows 14:22 ashimema #info Looking for some guidance on how to progress ManaKB serverside bugs 14:22 ashimema perhaps best to postpone that one again then.. 14:23 fridolin alex is on holidays 14:23 fridolin for 3 weeks 14:23 ashimema it's unclear how we want to manage that project as a community yet.. there's no clear path through SO/QA and Push 14:23 ashimema but there is a record of issues in Bugzilla.. so we need to define how we want to operate there. 14:23 ashimema anywho.. lets move on whilst the relevant parties aren't here 14:24 cait can we add a note? 14:24 cait https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Website_Administration is missing infromation for Hea and Mana 14:24 ashimema #info Postponed discussion as the key parties are not in attendance 14:24 cait I'd really like to have some information on the provider and who to talk 14:25 cait #info Note for later: Update/complate https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Website_Administration for Mana and Hea 14:25 cait complete... 14:25 ashimema thanks 14:25 ashimema #topic Road to Mojolicious 14:26 ashimema #info I'll be starting to look at bug 23161 in the next couple of weeks with a view to persuing pushing it early next month 14:26 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23161 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , We need to document the release process for this project? 14:26 ashimema #info Correction, that was meant to be bug 20582 14:26 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=20582 enhancement, P5 - low, Future, julian.maurice, Signed Off , Turn Koha into a Mojolicious application 14:27 cait not only me today :) 14:27 ashimema I think there's a general concensus that it's worth investigating.. I want to get a few more key parties involved and get their opinions, excitment and fears 14:28 ashimema unless anyone has anything else they specifically want to say on that one, it was more of an anouncement than a discussion.. please get involved :) 14:28 ashimema moving on 14:29 ashimema #topic Git maintanence 14:29 ashimema ack, no Joubu.. he was meant to be leading the charge on this one. 14:29 ashimema #info The gitlab mirror is currently failing to mirror correctly as our main repository is so large. 14:29 cait oh 14:29 ashimema #info This really just highlights that the repository is still growing at an alarming rate and as such many of our tools are starting to struggle. 14:30 ashimema rangi has already proposed we move the translations into their own repository 14:30 thd It may also highlight potential problems with Gitlab overhead. 14:30 ashimema and we have other suggestions 14:31 ashimema #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Git_Splitting_and_Shrinking Git maintanence proposals 14:32 cait we just need to make sure we have a clear workflow 14:32 ashimema I would say we do need to reduce our core repo's footprint at some point.. we've been discussing it for years for all sorts of reasons... I think it's time we took some decisive action 14:32 cait for how to ship translations 14:32 ashimema indeed cait 14:32 thd Moving translations and anything non-destructive to potentially important code history should be preferred. 14:32 cait woudl splitting out mean we don't include them anymore in packages etc? 14:32 ashimema but also need a consensus on how far we go with the cleanup.. 14:33 fridolin we should build anguage packages like firefox does 14:33 ashimema we have a few options outlined on that page.. please take a look and contribute to the discussions. 14:33 cait i am just worried because we are so log on people now - we can't leave this half-finished 14:33 cait i think the history on the po files is not relevant 14:33 cait as it's all automated and not 'personal' 14:34 ashimema right now cait, I believe the idea is to use git submodules (so the build process would remain as is but the maints would need to pull the submodule repo rather than merge the latest translations commit) 14:34 cait hm maybe some from pre-pootle days... but most shoudl be just the translation server as author 14:34 cait ashimema: how woudl the update happen on the submodule repo? 14:34 ashimema the issue with loosing history isn't the history of those files themselves but the way git records it.. 14:35 ashimema removing those files historically (which would lead to the biggest improvement in repo size) would change the commit hashes for the whole history (every commit).. 14:35 ashimema which could cause headaches 14:35 cait oh 14:35 cait so all links in bugzilla etc... broken? 14:36 ashimema pretty much as it does now cait.. the translations are already basically maintained in their own repo on github.. the rmaints (and rm) just pull in one commit each release from it. 14:36 cait not such a big fan fo that idea 14:36 fridolin my disk space is fan of it ;) 14:36 ashimema kohadevbox and koha-testing-docker would be fans of it ;) 14:37 fridolin and jenkins 14:37 cait so that would be... option 3? 14:37 thd Which options break links? 14:38 ashimema there's lots of good positives here.. it's whether they outweight the negatives 14:38 corilynn i don't think i understand the negatives 14:38 cait i am not sure about losing history = does it mean, it's gone (like freshly initiated) or just: changed hashes 14:38 cait and it's all still there but reorganized 14:38 thd Does option 3 "Keep-loose history" break links? 14:39 ashimema I should clean up that page.. it doesn't make it desperately clear 14:39 ashimema what links are we talking about cait? 14:39 ashimema an example would be good 14:39 cait linking to a commit on git 14:40 cait some bug trackers allow you do that nicely... i think we don't have tons of those in bugzilla, only some 14:40 cait usually something liek: i tracked it back to commit... breaking things 14:40 ashimema personally.. I like the idea of drawing a line and having a koha-legacy repo where all the links would just continue to work 14:41 ashimema as nothing would change.. it just stops moving 14:41 ashimema then doing the splitting and cleaning as a fresh set of repos 14:41 ashimema all new development goes onto the new repo's 14:42 ashimema the issue is more about how all devs would need to switch to tracking the new repository 14:42 cait (16:38:44) cait: i am not sure about losing history = does it mean, it's gone (like freshly initiated) or just: changed hashes 14:42 cait (16:38:52) cait: and it's all still there but reorganized 14:42 cait still a bit stuck on that question 14:42 thd Yes, if creating legacy preserves all history and does not break past links. 14:42 ashimema and.. their existing branches and patches would need updateing to apply to the new repos' 14:42 ashimema what you'd see allot of in the beggining would be that horrible `sha1 does not apply` pach issue on existing bugs and patches. 14:43 cait i've never learned how to resolve these 14:43 cait so it's a little scary 14:43 ashimema it's that applying bugzilla patches stuff that would be painful for a few months I think 14:43 thd The problem to not break links would also be about naming such that if the old would be renamed koha-legacy that itself would break links. 14:44 cait if we moved to gitlab or similar it woudl also get broken... links would be nice... but more concerned about the not applying now 14:44 ashimema indeed thd.. though we could symlink 'koha' to 'koha-legacy' at the main koha git repo server end I believe.. 14:44 cait how do you handle patches that don't apply developer side? with the sha1? 14:44 ashimema and move forward with 'koha-core' and 'koha-i18n' or whatever as the new 14:45 ashimema you can manually apply them cait.. though it doesn't always work nicely 14:45 cait what means manually apply? 14:46 ashimema what you can often do is 'patch -p1 < failed_patch.patch' 14:46 cait hm if we do that change... I thnk we need to have that written up 14:47 ashimema I can write something up to help with that pain.. but it certainly would cause pain to start with 14:47 cait and also have people helping others with rebasing 14:47 ashimema indeed 14:48 ashimema Joubu is keen to move forward and I'm keen to 'do it right' 14:48 cait I am not against doing it, but let's not rush 14:48 cait amybe we can make the page a bit clearer on suspected side effects 14:49 cait and do a feedback round on the mailing list? (koha-devel) 14:49 ashimema as in.. make sure the community are in agreement as to how and understand the repurcussions and benefits 14:49 ashimema indeed 14:49 ashimema I think I'll leave it as a standing topic whilst Joubu and I work on clarifying it all 14:49 ashimema yeah, that's also a good idea cait 14:49 ashimema shall we move onto the next topic for now? 14:50 ashimema #info Martin will send something to the dev mailing list regarding git maintanence proposals 14:50 thd Given that the vast majority of the problem comes from translation history I presume that preserving translations monolithically would be liable to recreate the same problem for translations at a later point if not immediately. 14:50 ashimema #info Martin will try to clarify the existing git splitting page 14:50 ashimema #info We will keep this as a standing topic on the agenda whilst it's still in progress 14:51 ashimema perhaps thd.. but it's a problem that will affect fewer people 14:52 ashimema the main effects at this point in time are issues with devbox and things struggling to cope with the size of the main repo.. 14:52 thd If a koha-legacy is created would it not be better to then also have separate repositories for each translation to constrain history size? 14:52 ashimema in reality only the translation manager and rmaints/rm ever need to actually interact with the i18n repo at all 14:52 ashimema hense 'they can cope' 14:53 thd ...ahh 14:53 ashimema I don't believe it would win us much.. for the above reasons ;) 14:53 ashimema it's only really the main repo for the majority of devs that we're worried about.. 14:54 ashimema example in point.. at the hackfests we often get a group of new devs all trying to clone our main repo at the same time.. 14:54 ashimema because it's huge and they're all doing it we often swamp the bandwidth of the local internet and everyone grinds to a halt 14:54 thd one can always imagine features which could have a high growth trajectory. 14:55 ashimema a smaller repo would basically make that sort of problem go away 14:55 ashimema instead of 'git clone -> go and have lunch' it would be 'git clone -> grab a cup of tea' 14:55 ashimema hehe, indeed 14:55 ashimema so...... 14:55 wahanui i think so is the koha ON the mac? 14:55 ashimema moving on.. thanks for all the input and please keep mulling it over if you have any thoughts 14:56 ashimema #topic Review of coding guidelines 14:56 thd We would need to be mindful of potential features which might lead to the same problem and create separate repositories for them when the growth curve becomes evident. 14:56 ashimema #topc Using the Koha::Script base class 14:56 ashimema #topic Using the Koha::Script base class 14:57 ashimema correct thd 14:57 ashimema So.. we introduced a base class for command line scripts with bug 22600, but neglected to add a guidline to ensure it's use going forward. 14:57 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=22600 blocker, P2, ---, martin.renvoize, RESOLVED FIXED, We should add an 'interface' field to accountlines 14:58 ashimema As it stands, that base class basically sets up a consistent environment for scripts to run, so we get consistent action_logs for example from all cronjobs and maintanence scripts 14:58 ashimema I propose to write such a guideline and take a vote on it next meeting (forgot to do a draft for this meeting) 14:59 cait +1 14:59 ashimema #info We introduced a base class for scripts in bug 22600 - We should add a guideline to facilitate it's maintanence. 14:59 ashimema :) 15:00 ashimema ok.. I'll write it up for next meeting.. apologies I'm bhind 15:00 ashimema next 15:00 * fridolin goes to train, see you 15:00 ashimema #topic Update to SQL12 15:00 ashimema this one was another Joubu + tcohen one 15:00 ashimema I'll try to explain though.. 15:01 ashimema We currently use TINYINT(1) in the database for any form of boolean.. but TINYINT(1) may also be used for other things which makes it hard for QA scripts to tell if it's meant to be a boolean or not 15:01 ashimema and.. 15:03 ashimema qa people are missing cases where booleans are being introduced and not being appropraitely set in the DBIC classes (and as such the REST api is not converiting them to valid JSON::Booleans) 15:03 ashimema I 'think' the discussion here was meant to ask 'What next' 15:03 ashimema should we switch to something other than TINYINT(1) (BOOLEAN or BIT perhaps) 15:03 ashimema or set a 'warning' type failure in the QA scripts and get the QA persons to decide whether it's an actual fail or not? 15:04 ashimema thoughts? 15:04 * ashimema wishes tcohen and Joubu were here 15:04 ashimema met by silence.. another one to wait on the relevant parties I reckon 15:05 cait maybe 15:05 cait not quite the topic i know a lot about :) 15:05 ashimema #info Further discussion postponed pending knowledable parties. 15:05 ashimema #topic Revise JS guideline JS8 to recomment ESLint 15:05 thd I think that treating booleans as a numeric value has huge importance for future standards based support. 15:06 ashimema oleonard around? 15:06 ashimema this is his? 15:06 cait i think so 15:07 ashimema MS SQL is about the only DB system that gets 'BOOLEAN' right as per the original intention of the SQL spec apparently 15:07 ashimema thd ^ 15:07 ashimema I 'think' BIT is the closest other DB's have got 15:08 ashimema OK, no oleonard and we've hit the 1 hour mark 15:08 ashimema lets move onto the last topic 15:08 thd Well, if that is really correct and widely applicable for other contexts of Boolean use as well then great. ... moving 15:08 ashimema #info Posponed discussion as oleonard is absent 15:09 ashimema #topic Set time of next meeting 15:09 ashimema coming into summer now so I think we're going to be operating on a skeliton crew for the next few meetings 15:12 thd Is 24 July a useful date? 15:12 reiveune bye 15:12 cait winter in nz :) 15:12 cait should work 15:13 ashimema I think it'll be a short one.. but I do think it's good to have one in the diary every two weeks (we can always cancel the slot if there are no topics) 15:13 ashimema so.. that would make it 24th July I believe 15:13 cait agreed 15:13 ashimema and.. I'm trying to be good and line up so the NZ croud can attend.. so that puts it 15:14 ashimema 8pm BST 15:14 ashimema 19:00 UTC 15:14 ashimema so... 15:15 cait too early 15:15 ashimema 24 July 2019, 19:00:00 UTC - Does that suit? 15:15 thd 20 UTC is currently set for the general meeting but I think 19 UTC may be closer to what people favoured in the preferred times poll. 15:15 cait hm let me check quickly 15:16 cait i think 20 might work slightly better 15:16 ashimema 19UTC was what we did two weeks ago 15:16 cait because of daylight savings 15:16 cait 10 hours from here to nz 15:16 cait 20 utc should be 8 am 15:16 thd We have allowed meeting times to drift in the opposite direction of the survey times as summer time changes have come and gone. 15:16 ashimema any objections anyone else 15:17 cait more likely to catch people at work 15:17 thd I prefer 19 UTC so no objection from me. 15:17 ashimema sorry.. I meant objections to 20 15:18 thd I was trying to state that 19 UTC may be closer to what the time survey had indicated people favoured. 15:18 ashimema 20 is 9pm UK 15:19 ashimema nothing say it needs to be on the hour.. perhaps 19:30 in a vane atempt to keep more people happy 15:19 thd I like 19.30 ;) 15:19 cait keep people on their toes ;) 15:20 ashimema #info Next meeting: 24 July 2019, 19:30 UTC 15:20 ashimema done :) 15:20 thd People may need special notice to show up not too early and leave :) 15:20 ashimema thanks all 15:20 ashimema #endmeeting 15:20 huginn` Meeting ended Wed Jul 10 15:20:18 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 15:20 huginn` Minutes: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/development_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-14.01.html 15:20 huginn` Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/development_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-14.01.txt 15:20 huginn` Log: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/development_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-14.01.log.html 15:21 eythian ashimema: a suggestion: require a comment on the tinyint field that is "boolean" or "not boolean" and the tooling can use and enforce that. 15:21 ashimema ohh.. why didn't I tihnk of that! 15:21 ashimema great suggestion eythian 15:21 eythian yw :) 15:21 thd eythian++ 15:24 * ashimema goes for :tea: 15:24 ashimema thanks everyone 15:25 thd ashimema: I have learnt not to trust any SQL type special storage of values. Store the numbers or strings so that they come out the way they came in, however, with booleans maybe that is a legacy coding practise preference of mine. 15:25 eythian mysql has no boolean type, and traditionally tinyint(1) is used for that. 15:26 eythian actually 15:26 eythian that's not totally true 15:26 thd So I thought, what was the claim in the meeting though? 15:26 eythian it has a "boolean" type that is a synonym for "tinyint(1)" 15:27 eythian The problem can be that Perl is pretty happily wishy-washy about what is what type, it'll make it look right. 15:27 eythian This is a problem when serialising for stricter formats. 15:27 eythian (I once crashed many, many phones by getting that wrong.) 15:29 thd Yes, Perl and other weakly typed languages framed my preferences for preferred data typing of booleans at least. 15:35 thd Documenting type strongly allows for data exchange between strongly and weakly typed languages, although, I could see a case for downconverting of data type strength. 17:43 tcohen hi all 18:36 mtompset Greetings, #koha. 18:36 mtompset @seen cait 18:36 huginn` mtompset: cait was last seen in #koha 3 hours, 17 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <cait> keep people on their toes ;) 18:37 mtompset Are you here, cait? 18:38 mtompset @later tell cait I noticed that there is a HOLD_SLIP in fr-CA that isn't in en. Should it be? 18:38 huginn` mtompset: The operation succeeded. 18:38 cait probably not 18:38 cait but wondering, i think we have a hold slip 18:39 mtompset bug 17469 18:39 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=17469 normal, P5 - low, ---, caitlingoodger.student, CLOSED FIXED, fr-CA web installer is missing some sample notices 18:39 cait http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git&a=search&h=HEAD&st=grep&s=HOLD_SLIP 18:39 cait are you sure it's not in en? 18:40 mtompset let me recheck... maybe my grep was bad. 18:41 mtompset DOH! Underscore. 18:41 mtompset Let me fix my grep. :) 18:42 cait there is also a test, i think in xt 18:42 cait checking for notices 18:45 mtompset cait++ # there is an xt test. 18:46 cait maybe check if it covers the new installer 18:47 cait fr-CA 20:00 cait meeting time? 20:01 Charles_Quain Hi there 20:01 cait hey Charles_Quain - how are you doing? 20:01 Charles_Quain Good thanks. How are things with you? 20:01 cait busy but improving 20:02 Charles_Quain busy is good - at least I try to convince myself of that! 20:02 cait ashimema: rangi? 20:02 wahanui rangi is a pretty big get 20:02 rangi hmm? 20:02 cait Charles_Quain: :) 20:02 rangi what did i do now? 20:02 cait wondering who is around for general meeting 20:03 cait nothing, just noticed you logging in 20:03 ashimema Late apologies, looking after ill family 20:03 rangi ah yep, i can do a kohacon20 update 20:03 ashimema Sorry guys 20:04 cait oh no 20:04 cait hope they will feel better soon 20:04 cait should I chair? 20:04 cait we can have a quick one 20:04 rangi yep 20:04 cait #startmeeting General IRC meeting 10 July 2019 20:04 huginn` Meeting started Wed Jul 10 20:04:27 2019 UTC. The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:04 huginn` Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 20:04 huginn` The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting_10_july_2019' 20:04 cait #topic Introductions 20:04 cait Please introduce yourself using #info 20:04 cait #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_10_July_2019 Today's agenda 20:04 cait #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 20:05 rangi #info Chris Cormack, Catalyst IT, NZ 20:05 Charles_Quain #info Charles Quain, Interleaf Technology 20:05 * ashimema tries to listen in 20:05 ashimema #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS-E 20:05 bag #info Brendan Gallagher, ByWater 20:05 ashimema thanks for stepping into the breach cait 20:05 rangi can we add kohacon20 to the agenda cait ? 20:05 cait no worries 20:05 cait yep 20:05 cait do you want to add it to wiki? 20:05 rangi just at the end is fine 20:05 rangi will do 20:05 thd #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 20:05 cait thx 20:06 Charles_Quain And add what to do with the KohaCon19 surplus? 20:06 cait ok, so maybe a Kohacon19/20 then :) 20:06 cait moving on 20:06 cait ah, waiting for davidnind 20:06 cait last chance to #info everyone :) 20:07 davidnind #info David Nind, New Zealand 20:07 cait #topic Announcements 20:07 davidnind just... 20:07 cait Any announcements? 20:07 rangi Charles_Quain: i had an idea about that, we can come to it when we get to the kohacon topic ;) 20:07 bag Bring Guinness :) 20:07 rangi heh 20:07 cait nothing going on? :) 20:08 cait Koha US maybe? 20:08 rangi just a really busy year for all koha support companies it seems 20:08 cait has it ever been different? :) 20:08 rangi nope :) 20:08 cait #info Registration for koha-US conference is open https://koha-us.org/2019/07/01/kohaus-conference-registration-open/ 20:08 ashimema Caroline was going to update us as to how the education meeting went wasn't she 20:08 bag There is a kohaus conference in September 20:08 davidnind #info Hackfest 2019 30 September to 4th Octoberhttps://lists.katipo.co.nz/pipermail/koha/2019-July/053277.html 20:08 bag cait++ 20:09 ashimema oh.. she's also in the apologies 20:09 cait ah great, thx davidnind 20:09 bag hackfest is a great one to attend if you get a chance 20:09 cait true 20:09 rangi one day 20:09 cait moving on 20:09 cait #topic Update on releases 20:09 cait i'll repeat from earlier today 20:10 cait #info Maintenance releases are moving along nicely 20:10 cait wizzyrea: want to add something? 20:10 cait ok, moving on :) 20:11 cait ah, rmaints dropping in 20:11 ashimema #info Moving into pushing small to medium sized enhancements on master now - out of bugfix only freeze period :) 20:11 cait cool :) 20:11 cait moving on now 20:12 cait #topic Wiki 20:12 wizzyrea #info Liz Rea 20:12 cait all eyes on agenda - reading quickly now :) 20:13 davidnind We discussed at the documentation meeting, but my memory has faded already... 20:14 cait In general I think we discussed updating to a recent version 20:14 cait I'd like us to think about even restarting 20:14 thd I added some contents to the wiki section of the agenda correcting for some mistaken notions. I have not added something appropriate to the wiki update bug yet. 20:14 cait i don't quit eshare the thought that stuff should never be deleted 20:14 rangi yeah 20:14 cait I tihnk we might want to consider a restart 20:15 ashimema 1.16 dates back to 2011 20:15 thd The problem with MediaWiki deletion is that it does not leave a history. 20:15 davidnind bug 23073 20:15 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=23073 normal, P5 - low, ---, gmc, NEW , wiki.koha-community.org needs updating to a later version 20:15 Nemo_bis it doesn't? O_o 20:15 cait #info current wiki version is 1.16, dating back to 2011 20:15 Nemo_bis history is only deleted if the purge archive maintenance script is run 20:15 cait hi Nemo_bis, thx for chiming in 20:16 cait could you detail? so deleted pages could be recovered? 20:16 Nemo_bis aka https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:DeleteArchivedRevisions.php 20:16 thd Ok, maybe I am mistaken. I know the big issue about which people complained when it has happened on Wikipedia. 20:16 ashimema that was my understanding too Nemo_bis, but I thought I might be out of date.. thanks for varifying 20:16 Nemo_bis unless you delete directly from the database, yes 20:16 cait so what are peoples thoughts? 20:17 cait I think we can agree on 'needing a newer version'? 20:17 cait update or restart? 20:17 rangi i dont mind either way, whatever is quicker 20:17 ashimema my feeling is that a large percentage of the current wiki content is actually more misleading than helpful 20:17 rangi before we lose everything 20:17 cait rangi: lose everything? 20:17 thd I think that it would be easier to organise the existing content than start over. 20:18 thd The big issue is migrating the database. 20:18 rangi cait: when someone exploits a 8 year old bug/hole and trashes the server 20:18 ashimema could we start afresh but leave the old one running for a while in case we do decide we want to migrate any particular pages? 20:18 cait rangi: makes sense... although i hope we have backups somewhere 20:18 rangi ashimema: id agree with that 20:18 cait yeah, i was thinking something along these lines 20:18 cait hand-pick the good stuff 20:18 bag I think gmcharlt - y’all are hosting that right? (I can’t remember) 20:18 bag I’m sure they have backups 20:18 cait equinox for the wiki, yep 20:19 gmcharlt yep 20:19 * cait jumps 20:19 bag yeah they definitely have backups 20:19 rangi backups are great as long as you notice it happening :) 20:19 bag heya galen 20:19 gmcharlt howdy 20:19 wahanui privet, gmcharlt 20:19 bag true 20:19 thd There may be backups but backups are only as good as the testing of those backups. 20:19 rangi otherwsie you back up the mess too :) 20:20 rangi but yeah i would agree with ashimema 20:20 cait gmcharlt: have you read back? we were discussion about updating the wiki 20:20 cait or... starting afresh on a new version 20:20 gmcharlt I'm amenable both to upgrading it and to starting fresh, preferably on something other than mediawiki 20:20 rangi gmcharlt++ 20:20 cait do you have something in mind? 20:20 thd We could maintain the old content in an archived format which would not allow exploiting any MediaWiki bugs. 20:21 cait another software I mean 20:21 gmcharlt cait: dokuwiki, actually, for sake of simplicity, but I'm certainly open to other suggestions 20:21 ashimema We should be able to put the old one into read only (even if only at the db level) and still be able to get at the wiki markup of pages to grab the best bits manually as required.. I would imagine after a few months all the most helpful content would have been migrated 20:21 cait I still run my own dokuwiki... so I wouldn't mind 20:22 Nemo_bis upgrading from MediaWiki 1.16 is not very hard 20:22 cait but that's not radically different to what we have now :) 20:22 Nemo_bis I can help with it if needed 20:22 ashimema oh.. I'd not even considered using another wiki platform.. more than happy to be guided by others on that front 20:22 thd Direct updating without first migrating to MySQL will probably reach a deadend for some state of MediaWiki software and certainly prevent many proposed extensions etc. from working. 20:22 cait what is it running on now? postgres? 20:22 thd yes 20:23 thd It was an historical mistake when a test became the only wiki running. 20:23 ashimema what puts you off mediawiki gmcharlt ? 20:23 cait #info current Mediawiki is running on PostgreSQL 20:24 ashimema I've found the recent editors in mediawiki pretty straighforward 20:24 rangi its big, its heavy, its wood 20:24 gmcharlt and we ended up inadvertantly on a less-well-supported path with running on on Pg 20:24 Nemo_bis PostgreSQL is still officially supported, so any upgrade error would be a welcome bug report and is usually fixed (but yes, not necessarily fun) 20:25 gmcharlt I'm not strongly against it, but in (in comparison) have found dokuwiki sufficient for Evergreen's needs 20:25 thd The problem is not that Postgres is not supported at all. It is less well supported than MySQL. 20:25 Nemo_bis thd: no doubt about that :) 20:25 cait #idea Change of wiki platform, for example to DokuWiki (no database needed, easier to maintain) 20:25 Nemo_bis A couple extensions here are not supported any more but I'm not sure they're in wide use https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Special:Version 20:25 gmcharlt though of course, for both projects, there's certainly always the perpetual problem of wanting as much wiki librarian cycles as we can get to keep content fresh and organized 20:26 bag good point 20:26 cait wiki librarian cycles? 20:26 thd I found docuwiki to have huge problems where it had become unmanageable with unlinked content and lacking the level of features provided by MediaWiki. 20:26 gmcharlt and I /don't/ belive that mediawiki vs dokuwiki makes a great deal of difference as far as that's concerned 20:26 Nemo_bis dokuwiki's simplicity is often deceptive more than real (but I'm a biased MediaWiki person of course) 20:26 bag a curator? 20:27 thd However, MediaWiki was supposed to be a test. 20:27 bag any wiki is as good as the content and organization 20:27 cait I think we don't use a lot of the features right now 20:27 cait maybe the templating things 20:27 Nemo_bis A first step then would be to reduce the complexity of the installation 20:27 cait i am not aware that Dokuwiki has that 20:27 Nemo_bis Do you really need SemanticMediaWiki, for instance? 20:27 cait Nemo_bis: I'd say no 20:28 cait ok, next steps? 20:28 thd If we migrate to MySQL or start over with MediaWiki we could then add SemanticMediaWiKi which has much to support the work of keeping everything in good order. 20:28 rangi yeah i dont think lack of features has ever been an issue, more no one is cleaning dead/wrong content 20:28 ashimema I believe our use of semanticmediawiki is broken anyway 20:29 * ashimema agrees with rangi 20:29 gmcharlt yeah, tooling goes but so far w/o concentrated wikilibrarian/curator effort 20:29 thd We do not have any use of SemanticMediaWiki other than it may have been installed. 20:29 ashimema though.. on the few occasions I've tried to maintain I found our version of mediawiki challenging to organise 20:30 ashimema we really need somewhat of a plan for organising content from day one and a guide for new submissions 20:30 * ashimema curated a few wiki's over the years.. including openstreetmaps one 20:30 gmcharlt ashimema: so, a question for you: how many folks would you want with you in a committed curator corps? 20:30 thd Organisation is really about assigning tags and categories which mostly never happened when we were using Docuwiki. 20:31 cait ashimema is RM currently... so not sure we hsould lay more on him 20:31 ashimema As much as I love SemanticMediaWiki, I don't feel we need the added complexity it adds on day one 20:31 cait but i know the docs team was interested 20:31 cait davidnind: ? 20:31 ashimema haha 20:31 ashimema happy to help and guide.. but yeah.. i've low on tuits being RM and all ;) 20:31 cait actually this was brought over as a topic from docs meeting 20:31 bag gmcharlt and all - I think this is a good topic to bring up during that new “trainers†sub-group that is going 20:31 davidnind the discussion was around getting someone to do it, which is the bit that is missing at the moment 20:31 bag or what cait said 20:31 ashimema Nemo_bis sounds very knowledgable.. sounds like a good condidate? 20:32 thd MediaWiki makes it very easy to find lost content to tag and categorise it. Docuwiki did not seem to have any way to identify such unlinked content. 20:32 Nemo_bis ah yes, MediaWiki is good for obsessive taggers :) 20:32 ashimema davidnind, do you have any sort of proposals/notions of what content belongs where? 20:33 ashimema what exactly do we want a wiki for (bearing in mind the efforts going into the manual etc) 20:33 cait ok, I think maybe we need to break here with osme #actions for next meeting? 20:33 thd In Docuwiki most of our content could only be found by searching in the dark with respect to the actual content. 20:33 cait #agreed current wiki software is way out of date and we need to remedy that 20:33 davidnind not really, but I think we need a plan - whihc I'm happy to help with/lead 20:33 ashimema good plan cait 20:34 * ashimema is enjoying the distraction from playing nurse 20:34 cait gmcharlt: as you are currently running Mediawiki - what woudl we need to do? 20:34 ashimema first action right there cait.. david has offered to help create a plan :) 20:34 cait davidnind: you ok to be named 'lead of wiki update'? 20:34 gmcharlt ashimema: since I think we have a consensus (?) about starting fressh 20:35 davidnind cait: yep, ties in with documentation well 20:35 cait we should also decide on naming releases after muppets today *hides* 20:35 gmcharlt first task I think would be carving out hosting some where with a fresh mediawiki/dokuwiki/out-come-of-rock-paper-scissors-wiki install 20:35 davidnind cait++ 20:35 cait #action davidnind named as 'lead of wiki update' - will try and help get a plan down 20:35 gmcharlt (and potentially see if there's other stuff that trainers/docs would want?) 20:36 cait gmcharlt: would Equinox be willing to continue hosting? 20:36 ashimema gmcharlt: Agree entirely 20:36 gmcharlt cait: yep, we'd will willing to set up another VM and host $newwiki 20:36 cait #info Equinox willing to continue hosting the wiki 20:37 cait #info Consensus on starting fresh with a plan to keep things organized 20:37 cait #info Wiki software to be discussed (continue with new Mediawiki, use Dokuwiki, use $wiki) 20:37 thd We might do what was suddenly not done when the old wiki went down which was to test different possibilities and choose what seems to work best with actual testing. 20:37 cait #action add Wiki and requirements/wish list for future to next educator's meeting 20:38 cait maybe if we have a wiki page set up we could collect some ideas 20:38 cait ok, so far so good? 20:38 cait i'd move on then 20:38 davidnind great 20:39 cait #topic Update/obsolete installation guides on wiki 20:39 cait davidnind: could you? 20:39 davidnind my brain is mush today 20:39 ashimema thanks all for that.. very productive 20:39 thd #MESSAGE gmcharlt gmcharlt: I would like to update my ssh access to preserve some things which may otherwise be lost to history. 20:40 davidnind the idea I think was to have a 'proper' installation guide 20:40 davidnind either on the wiki or separately as part of the manual 20:40 cait we have a lot of htem right now, but I think we only link a few in release notes 20:40 davidnind there are so many guides available when you goodle it 20:40 ashimema I'd vote for in the manual 20:40 davidnind google it 20:41 cait it often leads to issues when people follow hte ones outside of the wiki... but the wiki ones can be tricky too 20:41 davidnind wherever it is we need to keep current (as most things documentation) 20:41 cait #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Installation_Documentation Release notes link to this page for installation guides 20:42 ashimema one install guide for the majority and in the manual and other guides should be categorized into development install types 20:42 davidnind I'm working through the main ones at the moment on the wiki (Debian + Ubuntu packages) 20:42 thd The manual should be primary but there should always be room for details, comments, etc. in the wiki which could not fit in a clear manual. 20:42 ashimema in reality it feels like we've reached a maturity level in the project where there is really only one 'recommended' install type 20:42 ashimema the others are all developer oriented 20:43 davidnind thd: good idea - there are always lost of nuances 20:43 rangi ashimema: yes 20:43 davidnind so is everyone okay with this approach, and we work out the details of the best way to do this 20:43 cait we are talking packages right? 20:43 rangi davidnind: i am 20:44 ashimema me too 20:44 gmcharlt speaking of isntallation, I think we must come up with a better use for old Apollo guidance computers than mining bitcoin 20:44 cait #info Package installation is the recommended installation method 20:44 gmcharlt obvious, I hope folks get inspired to work on a Koha port ;) 20:44 davidnind my tape machine no longer works... 20:45 cait so suggestions? 20:45 cait hi caroline_catlady :) 20:46 caroline_catlady hi! did I miss the meeting? 20:46 davidnind either a separate official guide or part of the manual, with a place somewhere (wiki?) for notes and variations 20:46 cait we tasked you with everything noone else wanted to do ;) 20:46 caroline_catlady hehe! 20:46 cait ok, so one official installation gude focused on packages? 20:46 davidnind :) 20:46 davidnind ++ 20:46 cait #idea have one official installation guide for a package installation, variations for devs in the wiki 20:47 davidnind success will be the official guide is the first google/bing/duckduck go result :) 20:47 cait #info remember to change links in the release note scripts once in place 20:47 cait is someone willing to clean up the package install gude for the manual? 20:48 davidnind I'm working through that with a local vm 20:48 cait feeling slightly bad about tasking you again, but I will 20:48 rangi cool davidnind 20:48 davidnind will probably pester dev list with questions I have that don't make sense to me 20:48 Nemo_bis (Meanwhile, Debian packages are the best way to install MediaWiki as well, if you are on Debian. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Legoktm/Packages ) 20:48 cait #action davidnind working through installation guide currently for updating 20:49 cait ok, moving on to last topic for tonight? 20:49 cait davidnind++ too 20:49 cait #topic Koha Community Project Day 20:49 cait this was a last minute addition form me 20:50 cait was thining about how to wake things up a bit 20:50 cait we are all crazy busy so it's hard to make progress on stuff 20:50 cait maybe if set a date and people put down possible projects/tasks... things they want to work on 20:50 caroline_catlady like a virtual hackfest? 20:50 cait yeah a bit 20:50 davidnind was wanting to do a doc sprint at some stage (outstanding action point for me), maybe over a week 20:50 cait not only focused on bugs 20:51 cait clean up wiki pages... check website content... could be anything 20:51 cait write a new plugin 20:51 bag check_website_content++ 20:51 ashimema cait++ 20:51 cait would that be something people would like to participate in? 20:51 Charles_Quain sounds like a great idea 20:52 davidnind maybe a theme for each month and a 24 hour day, or a day a month with people working on whatever strikes their fancy? 20:52 rangi yep 20:52 rangi like the bug squash magnuse used to run 20:52 cait yep, just a bit broader 20:52 cait not only bug squashing 20:52 lukeG sounds awesome 20:53 ashimema I wish we had more ways/better ways to reward and therefore incentivise people to do more 20:53 cait it's true 20:53 cait so... maybe starting with a doodle to find a date? 20:53 cait and people interested? 20:53 cait i could try to set that up this or beginning of next week 20:53 ashimema probably at a company level.. I see alot of individuals really committed but it's often also a battle for those people to justify working on the less obviously rewarding to companies work 20:54 * caroline_catlady thinks saving kittens is a pretty good incentive 20:54 cait i feel we also got a lot of other thing sstuck 20:54 ashimema for short run things I agree caroline 20:54 cait so testing out wikis and thinking about structure could also be a project 20:54 rangi i think the thing is to pick a date a little way out, and just say thats it 20:54 cait ok, i coudl do that 20:54 rangi then companies/people can organise to be free that day 20:54 ashimema and those short bursts certainly get things moving.. so I'm totally game for them 20:54 davidnind agree 20:54 cait among people here... any preferneces for hte day of week? 20:54 rangi eaiser than trying to find a day that works 20:55 Charles_Quain I dont like Wedensdays 20:55 cait noted 20:55 ashimema InLibro already have community fridays don't they? 20:55 ashimema and we loosly have fridays as a more flexible day 20:56 cait friday means a bit late for kiwis... unelss they make it their thursday 20:56 davidnind apologies have to go to 'important' work meeting, have my support for doing this 20:56 cait thx davidnind! 20:56 rangi thanks davidnind 20:56 caroline_catlady for sure fridays are best for us, since it's already our community work day 20:56 cait we could do a 'friday' whereever 20:56 rangi do a friday in your timezone 20:57 cait ok 20:57 cait so like the gbsd 20:57 rangi yep 20:57 rangi then we get almost 48 hours of work :) 20:57 cait august 9 too late? 20:57 ashimema yup 20:57 cait july 26 20:58 cait well.. might be a different date for osme... need to figure that out 20:58 cait we got 2 more minutes meeting time, I will start to look for next date and time while you ponder 20:58 ashimema I like July 26th 20:58 ashimema but I'm game for either realy 20:59 cait August 14 20:59 cait 13 UTC? 20:59 cait I'll aim for july 26th preparing something this weekend 21:00 rangi sounds good 21:00 cait at least writing a draft for the mailing list mail :) 21:00 ashimema +1 21:00 cait ok, ending soon 21:00 rangi if there is a community 'official' event it's easier for us to get our bosses to let us work on it :) 21:01 cait I'll try to make it look most official then :) 21:01 cait #topic Next meeting 21:01 cait wah kohacon 21:01 cait #topic Update on KohaCon 21:01 cait sorry 21:01 cait rangi? 21:01 wahanui rangi is a pretty big get 21:01 thd :) 21:01 bag kohacon++ 21:01 cait i forgot to refresh the wiki page.. sorr 21:02 cait Charles_Quain: still awake too? 21:02 rangi right, so the site is in softlaunch, 2020.kohacon.org it will be launch launched in a week or 2 21:02 Charles_Quain Yep 21:02 bag cait - it’s only 1400 21:02 bag ;) 21:02 rangi we have a venue booked, the national library of NZ 21:02 cait #info KohaCon website will be officially launched in a week or 2 21:03 rangi shortly we will be asking for volunteers to be part of the programme committee 21:03 cait #info venue is the National Library of NZ 21:03 Charles_Quain We have the (strangely precise) amount of €2386 left over from KohaCon19. Looking for ideas on how to use it to best advantage 21:03 rangi we are going to do the 3+1+1+2 format this time 21:03 cait #info Asking volunteers on the programme committee soon 21:03 rangi 3 days talks, 1 day culture, 1 day workshops, 2 days working together 21:03 ashimema 3,1,1,2? 21:04 ashimema ta 21:04 rangi trying to get the best of both worlds the workshops from kohacon19 and the hackfest from kohacon18 :) 21:05 cait what's first, workshop day or excursion? 21:05 Charles_Quain so tricky to get the balance right 21:05 ashimema +1 21:05 rangi excursion 21:05 bag Charles_Quain: sponsorship for attending KohaCon20? 21:05 rangi we are trying to be tricky 21:05 rangi bag: thats exactly what i was going to suggest 21:05 cait #info format will be 3 + 1 + 1 + 2 = conference + excursion + workshops + hackfest 21:06 Charles_Quain Would it be enough? 21:06 rangi Charles_Quain: it could be part 21:06 bag like the program committe accepts scholar accplications 21:06 ashimema I reckon you have an advantage geographically for such a layout.. it's not as tempting to 'just head home early' 21:06 bag sorry for spelling :( 21:06 rangi i think it would be good to use to see if can get some irish librarians to come, at least to help 21:06 bag great idea 21:07 Charles_Quain I'm completely open as to what to do with it. 21:07 rangi ashimema: yep, and by putting the workshop after excursion easier to get ppl to not miss it too :) 21:07 ashimema indeed 21:08 rangi Charles_Quain: 500 euro would cover a weeks accomodation in wellington comfortably 21:08 Charles_Quain How would we select a delegate? 21:08 ashimema I like the idea of conference money going to conference stuff.. so that ticks my boxes :) 21:08 rangi if it was a supplement, it would be for someone who is already committed to go? 21:09 rangi i havent fully thought this through :) 21:09 bag we could decide on that later - maybe get the committee together and they can figure that out? 21:09 rangi but I was going to make it your problem to award the supplements Charles_Quain heheh 21:09 rangi or at least the kohacon19 team 21:09 rangi since you raised it :) 21:09 Charles_Quain It does make sense to use cash from one year to support the next 21:10 ashimema something Todd may be helpful with bag? 21:10 ashimema has he any experience in such things 21:10 bag Todd would definitely be on that 21:10 kathryn Hello, I have to confess, I've been lurking and can't stay quiet any longer :D 21:10 Charles_Quain I'd have to recuse myself from the selection process - I know them all too well! 21:10 bag some experince - but he’d do the research to make it fair 21:10 cait kathryn: finally! 21:11 kathryn I was thinking awards could have priority for speakers and Koha contributors 21:11 kathryn hehe 21:11 Charles_Quain That sounds fair 21:12 * ashimema would go along with 'the needy who are willing/wanting to contribute' 21:12 kathryn yes that too 21:13 cait maybe people can think this over and we come back to that next time with more ideas? 21:13 rangi yup 21:13 rangi another idea, that isnt fully formed too 21:13 kathryn yup! 21:13 ashimema +1 21:13 cait #info Discussion on how to use the money raised at KohaCon19 to be continued 21:13 ashimema meanwhile I'm sure that money is in a safe account ;) 21:14 rangi we are planning to try to get sponsorship from outside the koha support company world 21:14 Charles_Quain "Resting in my account" is the phrase 21:14 rangi we'd much rather you all use that money to come/send people 21:14 cait :) 21:14 kathryn your presence, not presents ;) 21:15 rangi exactly 21:15 bag but I’d still love some Guinness 21:15 ashimema :) 21:15 cait feel free to #info any of that :) 21:15 rangi if you send a person, you get a logo :) 21:15 rangi so can still have a nice list of logos on the sponsorship page :) 21:15 cait rangi: can I info that? 21:15 kathryn that's a cool idea rangi 21:16 cait or #idea it 21:16 rangi cait: sure why not :) 21:16 cait #idea If you send a person, you get a logo (your presence not presents) 21:16 cait anything else? 21:16 rangi thats it from me 21:16 rangi anything from you kathryn ? 21:17 kathryn probably save it for a first conference meeting 21:17 kathryn I have a lot of ideas and reckons 21:18 kathryn in short, no thanks! 21:18 cait :) 21:18 bag we are only 15 months away ;) 21:18 cait #topic Next meeting 21:18 cait short chance for veto: August 14th (second Wednesday) 13 UTC 21:19 cait #info Next meeting: 14 August 2019, 13 UTC 21:19 cait #endmeeting 21:19 huginn` Meeting ended Wed Jul 10 21:19:35 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 21:19 huginn` Minutes: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/general_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-20.04.html 21:19 huginn` Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/general_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-20.04.txt 21:19 huginn` Log: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2019/general_irc_meeting_10_july_2019.2019-07-10-20.04.log.html 21:19 cait thx all! 21:19 caroline_catlady cait++ 21:20 kathryn thanks cait and for accepting my late arrival! 21:20 Charles_Quain night all. 21:20 cait kathryn: you know you don't have to hold back, right? you can always talk here :) 21:20 ashimema cait++ 21:20 ashimema thanks 21:20 kathryn yeah I wasn't sure about crashing the meeting after #info ! 21:21 ashimema always say hi ;) 21:21 cait we don't mind 21:21 kathryn thanks :) 21:23 kathryn nearly time for a less-interesting meeting - seeyas! 21:23 cait caroline_catlady: noticed something odd today: https://koha-community.org/manual/19.05/en/html/ 21:24 cait says 19.05 in the tiele (and Hello?) but 18.11 at the top 21:24 cait tiele=title 21:26 ashimema meeting script run.. so we should have entries in the calendar and wiki for the next one now 21:26 ashimema have a good one #koha 21:26 cait night :) 21:27 caroline_crazycatlady hotel wifi is crap, I suddenly became crazycatlady! 21:29 caroline_crazycatlady currently in beautiful Val-d'Or (in my dad's birth region) training the public library staff https://goo.gl/maps/ngwCXikaeEE5sesAA 21:30 cait nice! 21:32 caroline_crazycatlady Val d'Or in french means Valley of gold 21:35 cait :) 21:38 cait night all 21:53 davidnind cait++ 21:56 davidnind cait: I can see what you mean about 18.11 and 19.05, will see if I can figure it out this evening when I get home (unless it gets fixed before then) 22:44 caroline_crazycatlady does anybody actually use the "Allow changes from" drop-down when creating a list? Especially the "Nobody" option makes absolutely no sense to me 23:24 thd rangi: Do you have a moment to give me an email address?