Time Nick Message 23:36 dj cheers @huginn` 23:35 huginn` dj: I'll give you the answer just as soon as RDA is ready 23:35 dj @tcohen you come highly recommended from @BobB for this kind of thing 23:35 dj its acting like it doesnt exist and returns 404 errors when i try to hit the endpoints 23:35 dj im able to use it with no issues on my devbox which is at master but not on a koha 18.05.02 box with debian packages 23:35 dj hey guys im having a bit of trouble with the rest api 23:09 Veronica help I do not work the reservation alerts ami mail and configure all emailLibrarianWhenHoldIsPlaced I have it in allow, thanks 23:02 Veronica help I do not work the reservation alerts ami mail and configure all emailLibrarianWhenHoldIsPlaced I have it in allow, thanks 21:52 caroline bye y'all! 21:05 ashimema indeed 21:05 caroline that must have been some vacation if you can't remember ;) 21:04 caroline poor thing 21:04 wahanui caroline: i haven't a clue 21:04 caroline wahanui: had fun on your vacation? 21:02 Joubu :-/ 21:02 wahanui joubu: bugger all, i dunno 21:02 Joubu wahanui: whatsup? 20:28 Joubu just in case 20:28 huginn` Joubu: The operation succeeded. 20:28 Joubu @later tell oleopard see bug 21223 - any ideas how it could have happened? How can we fix other issues? (I am sure there are more) 20:28 huginn` Joubu: The operation succeeded. 20:28 Joubu @later tell oleonard see bug 21223 - any ideas how it could have happened? How can we fix other issues? (I am sure there are more) 20:13 Freddy_Enrique1 Well guys, see ya tomorrow :) 19:34 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=21222 critical, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Needs Signoff , Patron's creation is broken 19:34 Joubu bug 21222 19:29 oleonard Bye all 19:22 oleonard No, but I have seen some other minor CSS issues which I assume are caused by the SCSS switch 19:21 Joubu oleonard: seen that already? https://screenshots.firefox.com/E2bRUcGabUpzjmYG/pro.kohadev.org 19:00 Freddy_Enrique1 my alt + 64 doesnt work in pidgit XD 19:00 Joubu I should go for a walk then! 19:00 Joubu really? 18:59 huginn` Joubu: Buenos Aires, Argentina :: Clear :: 63F/17C | Tuesday: Mainly clear. Lows overnight in the mid 40s. Tuesday Night: Clear skies. Low 44F. Winds SSW at 5 to 10 mph. 18:59 Joubu @wunder Buenos Aires, Argentina 18:59 huginn` oleonard: Error: I could not find a valid location for: Joubu 18:59 oleonard @wunder Joubu 18:58 huginn` oleonard: Anchorage, AK :: Overcast :: 57F/14C | Tuesday: Cloudy skies with periods of rain this afternoon. High near 60F. Winds SSW at 10 to 15 mph. Chance of rain 60%. Tuesday Night: Mainly cloudy. Low 51F. Winds S at 5 to 10 mph. 18:58 oleonard @wunder Anchorage 18:57 Joubu well yes, temperature feels like I am in Alaska 18:57 oleonard Everyone knows Joubu lives in Alaska! UTC -8 18:57 Joubu here, 4pm :) 18:55 Freddy_Enrique1 what the.... what time is it over there Joubu? 18:52 oleonard ðŸ¸ðŸ¸ðŸ¸ lunch? 18:52 Joubu 9 minutes before 11am :) 18:51 bag 9 minutes!!! 18:51 Joubu bag: too early for you! 18:50 bag beer! 18:49 * ashimema has ðŸº.. 18:49 * ashimema is now done on family duties... Time to chill in front of TV .. or time to get back to QA this crazy massive bug... Hmmmm 18:49 Freddy_Enrique1 Bye cait 18:48 ashimema Awesome Joubu 18:48 cait bye all 18:43 ccpla Will check, thanks 18:43 Joubu ashimema: I have added 2 new patches to 13618, we have tests now 18:40 Joubu ccpla: maybe the pref CheckPrevCheckout could fit your needs 18:39 ccpla Thanks for the help, folks! 18:38 ccpla Could try a report, though. It'd be a nice feature at some point. 18:38 ccpla Aye, that. And ah, yeah, never mind if I'm capable of it trying to mess with the code would probably cause our IT folks to skin me :P 18:36 cait not for statistics, but to recommend something they didn't already have? 18:36 cait ah... sorry misread 18:36 cait ccpla: maybe a report could fit your needs? 18:35 Joubu nope you would need to hack the code 18:35 oleonard ccpla: Never trust a developer who says something could be implemented "quite easily" ;) 18:34 ccpla Joubu: Huh. Is that something that could be done on our end? I'm just a branch worker and pretty close to code illiterate to boot, so not entirely sure if I'd have access to anything necessary to manage it. 18:31 Joubu oleonard: fyi I do not recreate, but let me know if you have a step by step plan to recreate the problem 18:31 cait ? 18:31 cait caroline: maybe just but a link to the merge request.... and resolved Moved 18:28 Joubu ccpla: note that could be implemented quite easily, adding a link to the search script with the list of biblionumbers 18:27 ccpla Ah, was afraid of that, heh. Manual checking's much more time intensive :P Thanks, though. Confirmation saves effort looking. 18:24 Joubu ccpla: nope, but there is a "Circulation history" tab when viewing a patron's card 18:24 oleonard ashimema: Someone who made a manual in Arabic ;) 18:24 Joubu ashimema: see ML 18:21 ashimema Hehe, who did screenshots in arabic 18:21 ccpla Not sure if here's a good place to ask, but... anyone happen to know if there's a straightforward-ish way to filter a catalog search based on a patron's circulation history? Trying to filter for stuff they've already checked out before. 18:21 oleonard That must be what made it sporadic, different item types 18:20 oleonard Joubu: Indeed I was checking out an item with a rental charge. 18:19 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=16189 minor, P5 - low, ---, chris, NEW , Add an exception to SMS via email documentation in the Koha manual 18:19 caroline hm... We didn't talk about workflow with bugzilla concerning the manual... I made a merge request with changes for bug 16189 but now what do I do with the bug in bugzilla? 18:18 Joubu oleonard: yes sure, but doing it for everybody (all languages) keeping them up-to-date for every versions could have been much better ;) 18:17 Joubu oleonard: reading the code I'd say you renew an item with a rental charge 18:16 oleonard Shouldn't they be? 18:15 Joubu they did the screenshots, in Arabic... 18:15 Joubu fuck 18:14 oleonard I can't help but suspect that my db is messed up somehow from the cruft of testing 18:14 oleonard Well it's not as sporadic as I thought... I can't seem to check out without getting it 18:09 Joubu oleonard: do you have steps to recreate? It sounds like an export problem 18:04 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=15732 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Remove accountno column from accountlines 18:04 tcohen oleonard: bug khall about bug 15732 18:03 tcohen ah 18:03 tcohen ? 18:00 cait tcohen maybe? 18:00 cait hm interesting 18:00 oleonard Undefined subroutine &C4::Circulation::getnextacctno called at /home/vagrant/kohaclone/C4/Circulation.pm line 3191. 18:00 oleonard I keep getting this error, but sporadically: 18:00 oleonard-away If anyone is still around... 17:56 cait if you've used add chat it will now always show koha in your buddy list 17:56 Freddy_Enrique1 Great, gonna take my time to play with this tool :) 17:53 cait not sure if logs are turned on by default 17:53 cait you can turn off/on sounds and the logging, if you look at the settings 17:53 cait hehe helping is fun :) 17:53 Freddy_Enrique1 cait++ 17:52 Freddy_Enrique1 Can I make the plus simbol much bigger for you? Thanks!!! 17:52 cait hello :) 17:50 cait and change the server setting 17:50 cait just edit your account again 17:50 cait yeah the channel still exists :) 17:49 Freddy_Enrique uhmm.... you are right. Cause this is waht I got : https://snag.gy/ZvCRDq.jpg 17:49 cait irc.oftc.net 17:49 cait we are no longer at freenode :) 17:49 cait you got the wrong server 17:48 Freddy_Enrique https://snag.gy/eWHCX1.jpg 17:48 Freddy_Enrique let see... 17:45 cait that would always catapult you right into #koha when you open pidgin 17:45 cait you can also check the automatically join when account connects 17:45 cait then double click it 17:45 cait save 17:45 cait channel #koha 17:45 cait select your irc account on top 17:45 cait hm or better add chat 17:44 cait chat 17:44 cait then go to buddies > join a hcat 17:44 cait username: your user name, server: irc.oftc.net add that 17:43 cait have you added an account already for irc? 17:42 Freddy_Enrique I just wanna have this conversation using this irc client 17:42 Freddy_Enrique but I'm no quite sure how to use it 17:42 Freddy_Enrique uhm, I've managed to install Pidgin 17:42 Freddy_Enrique :) nice! 17:42 caroline Sorry I was out to lunch 17:41 caroline Freddy_Enrique: I'm back 17:26 tuxayo bug 20136 17:26 tuxayo ok, it workd now 17:24 tuxayo Ho, I just got two 504 Gateway Time-out on bugzilla. And it seems that I'm not the only one. (bot didn't work) 17:22 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=20136 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, kyle, In Discussion , Test Bug 17:22 tuxayo bug 20136 17:19 Freddy_Enrique caroline: you there? 17:18 Freddy_Enrique :caroline you there? 16:44 cait with the pref 16:44 cait will be fixed 16:44 cait if you mark in cataloguing it's not removed 16:44 cait oleonard: also there is a difference still - marking from item form vs. marking from item tab 16:43 Joubu MarkLostItemsAsReturned 16:41 oleonard It works as expected. 16:41 oleonard Oh I guess the librarian was doing something else wrong, who knows what. 16:41 caroline oh noes! 16:40 oleonard I have a report from a librarian that it isn't happening here. I'll have to dirty up my account some more to confirm I guess. 16:39 caroline I thought marking it as lost (manually) removed it? 16:38 oleonard What controls whether an item is removed from a patron's account when it is marked lost? 16:26 ashimema 😑 16:20 Joubu but* 16:20 Joubu ashimema: both gitlab/k-c/koha gitlab/joubu/koha say "updating" both don't... 16:20 tuxayo (though frustrating) 16:20 tuxayo It's still likely that it's be the best toolset out there, so not prohibitive I my current opinion. 16:20 ashimema Right.. I'll keep watching this conversation in the background 16:20 ashimema Indeed.. all the reasons we didn't go GitHub apply at that point 16:20 ashimema Haha, no worries 16:19 tuxayo And ending up using the non-libre version could be a problem in inself. 16:19 tuxayo tcohen: Their open core business model without perpectives of improvements of the said model. (linking issues not in the libre version e.g.) 16:16 tuxayo ashimema: anyway, you are english, that just my french nonknowing about tea ^^ 16:16 tcohen what's the problem with gitlab? 16:16 tuxayo cook tea? 16:15 tuxayo Similar to GitHub. 16:15 tuxayo ashimema: Indeed, though that's switching to non-free software and locking oneselves to on instance of that software 16:15 * ashimema has to go cook tea for the family 16:13 ashimema is interesting though 16:13 ashimema https://about.gitlab.com/open-source/ 16:13 tuxayo It feels wrong that they are not trying to parallely have more "sane" business models. 16:13 tuxayo ashimema: «these companies have to make money somehow» Indeed libre software should be professionalized as much as possible. (as well as other respectable stuff that too often are done has nonpaid jobs) That's what pay our rents ^^ while not having an abusable power over users. 16:07 tuxayo Because huge return on investment aren't compatible with the above business models :( 16:07 tuxayo It seems that can be attributed to the fact that they are VC funded. 16:07 tuxayo With a bounty system for example. Or just setup a recurring donation system with the goal of making less and less non-libre features. 16:07 tuxayo If at least GitLab were trying to crowfund the migration of features to the libre version. 16:07 ashimema these companies have to make money somehow.. but it is a tad annoying when something you want is missing 16:05 Joubu indeed 16:04 ashimema Bronze gitlab SaaS by the looks 16:03 tuxayo (reply about related issues) 16:03 tuxayo ashimema: oh this is bad. Well if it's was in the libre version, if on needs to pay on the GitLab.com instance, that would be fine 16:03 ashimema https://about.gitlab.com/pricing/ 16:03 ashimema gitlab-ce is what I was looking for 16:03 ashimema feels that way 16:02 ashimema hmm 16:02 tuxayo Joubu: GitLab starter is non-libre right? 16:02 ashimema so there is 16:01 Joubu ashimema: https://gitlab.com/koha-community/kohadevbox/issues/257 there is a "Related issues" entry 16:01 Joubu ashimema: hum, sure? https://gitlab.com/help/user/project/issues/related_issues 16:00 tuxayo Joubu: hi hi, that's what I more or less wrote in my notes ^^ https://wiki.koha-community.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AVictor_Grousset_-_tuxayo%3ABugzilla_vs_GitLab&action=historysubmit&diff=21741&oldid=21740 15:58 ashimema hmm.. related issues is a gitlab paid for option only 15:58 Joubu tuxayo: well the problem is that nobody uses it :) 15:55 tuxayo Joubu: aside that it's not much visible, the voting system in Bugzilla is interesting. Thanks again :) 15:52 ashimema awesome work adding a wiki page to document the comparison 15:51 ashimema interesting 15:51 tuxayo Issue tracking and reviews aren't done there 15:51 tuxayo ashimema: we had an old version. (still have, switch is this week ^^) We are not using much of the features that makes the difference between GitLab and Gitea. 15:49 tuxayo Joubu++ 15:49 tuxayo "Ignore Bugs" Thanks!!! <3 15:49 Joubu (vote) 15:49 Joubu tuxayo: Importance: 15:48 Joubu tuxayo: for the notif you can modify it in your preferences, there is a "Ignore Bugs" input (yeah that's weird I agree) 15:48 tuxayo Joubu: really? That's a good news. Where is it in the UI? 15:47 tuxayo Interesting that the whole Gnome project did the same switch two month ago. Anyway, I noted some stuff here: https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/User:Victor_Grousset_-_tuxayo:Bugzilla_vs_GitLab 15:46 ashimema biblibre have switched from gitlab to gitea if i'm remembering correctly.. I've not looked at that as an alternative myself yet 15:46 Joubu tuxayo: you can vote for issues on bugzilla 15:46 ashimema gitlab still has some growing pains in my opinion.. but it certainly seems to be a really good contender 15:45 ashimema haha 15:44 * tuxayo sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/aUHRKAPscrtMxzQZqOhxscur > 15:44 * ashimema grabs a stiff drink before embarking on qa'ing 13618 15:43 ashimema haha.. fair enough 15:43 Joubu nope, first is 19817 (remove /help/*.tt), second is 13618 (add html filters to all variables in .tt) 15:43 * Freddy_Enrique starts getting white eyes 15:42 * ashimema guesses those are two patches that aim the achieve the same thing too? 15:41 Joubu ^ worst patch ever 15:41 Joubu 791 files changed, 11455 insertions(+), 11113 deletions(-) 15:40 Joubu ^ best patch ever 15:40 Joubu 199 files changed, 1 insertion(+), 7624 deletions(-) 15:29 ashimema totally agree with pretty much every point you said there tuxayo ;) 15:27 tuxayo (for merge requests, editing comments, better review UI, one character patches doable in the web UI, tells if the merge request non longer applies) 15:27 tuxayo ashimema: I wouldn't mind moving to GitLab for example ;) 15:27 cait nice comment .) 15:22 oleonard Oh yeah I forgot to add a comment 15:22 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=13618 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Needs Signoff , Prevent XSS in the Staff Client and the OPAC 15:22 Joubu oleonard: Is bug 13618 signed-off finally? 15:21 caroline Joubu: merci! 15:20 Joubu caroline: I will deal with it 15:18 ashimema pass 15:15 caroline Do you think I can start the 2019 meeting, set a next meeting for sept 2018 and end it again? 15:12 reiveune bye 15:12 cait or you can move ti, ubt not delete it i think 15:12 cait we could just have another then :) 15:11 oleonard I don't think the wiki can be changed?? Just have to wait until 2019 I guess!! 15:10 caroline I guess I can change it directly on the wiki? 15:09 caroline ok, I just realized that I set the next meeting to september 2019... 15:03 caroline definitely! 15:03 ashimema I'm open to suggestions.. but I think getting community to move off bugzilla would be a big battle ;) 15:03 caroline :D 15:03 ashimema and it could be prettier ;) 15:03 ashimema I like the review processes that are available in gitlab and github 15:03 ashimema it's not so much the bugtracker I don't like.. it's how unintegrated it is.. 15:02 Joubu oleonard: you forget the keyword "easy to use" 15:02 oleonard ashimema: I'm curious, have you used another open source bug tracker that you prefer over Bugzilla? 15:02 lucyvh thx caroline 15:01 caroline that was not stressful at all 15:01 * cait runs off 15:01 cait caroline++ thx for chairing! 15:01 caroline phew! thanks everyone! 15:01 huginn` Log: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2018/documentation_irc_meeting_14_august_2018.2018-08-14-14.02.log.html 15:01 huginn` Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2018/documentation_irc_meeting_14_august_2018.2018-08-14-14.02.txt 15:01 huginn` Minutes: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2018/documentation_irc_meeting_14_august_2018.2018-08-14-14.02.html 15:01 huginn` Meeting ended Tue Aug 14 15:01:21 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 15:01 caroline #endmeeting 15:01 caroline #info Next meeting: 4 september 2019, 21 UTC 15:00 georgew +1 15:00 cait +1 15:00 ashimema :+1: 15:00 caroline ok so 21UTC on sept 4? 15:00 cait pm 15:00 cait late in europe - 11pc 15:00 cait 21 shoudlwork for nz 15:00 cait oh yes it is 14:59 cait off 14:59 cait but my calc might be totall yof 14:59 * ashimema may have had to probe Joubu to remind him of the bug number though ;) 14:59 cait i thnk that's 7 am there 14:59 caroline we should do one where NZ is present 14:59 cait meeting before this was 21 utc 14:59 * Joubu did not pay ashimema to bring attention on 19817 14:59 caroline 14UTC is Europe and America only 14:58 caroline what time are we at in the rotation? 14:58 georgew september 4 is good here 14:57 cait sept 4 would work for me 14:57 caroline is everyone ok for a meeting sept 4? or after kohacon? 14:57 cait move on? 14:56 caroline #info bug 19817 need signoff and qa 14:56 cait i could try and do QA 14:56 cait bit the same for me right now :( 14:55 cait very true 14:55 ashimema we need a signoff and qa on that bug.. I'm overloading myself with bugs at the minute already.. but I do feel that one should go into master sooner rather than later again 14:55 caroline There is already a general meeting on Sept 5 14:55 cait just don't look at the German one - we didn't get very far yet 14:54 cait #link https://koha-community.org/documentation/ Translated 18.05 manuals from Sphinx 14:54 caroline #topic Set time of next meeting 14:54 caroline #info Translation discussion is postponed to next meeting 14:54 cait translations work now 14:54 cait ashimema: it's solved 14:54 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=19817 new feature, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Needs Signoff , Merge local and online documentations 14:54 cait could postpone to next meeting 14:54 ashimema was it translation that was holding back bug 19817 in part? 14:54 cait i think also a standing topic 14:53 caroline we can also keep it for next time when LeeJ and/or davidnind are here 14:52 caroline anybody want to comment? 14:52 caroline There was a discussion point about Translation? 14:52 caroline We'll go faster 14:52 caroline #topic Next steps 14:52 cait nope, just that i need to leave soon 14:51 caroline right, anything else on this topic? 14:51 georgew sounds awesome 14:51 caroline #info kill framapad and status quo on the mailing list 14:51 caroline #info we keep bugzilla for end users, taiga for us, gitlab issues for manual generation 14:51 caroline kill framapad and status quo on the mailing list 14:51 cait we can try it out :) 14:50 caroline would that make sense? 14:50 caroline so we keep bugzilla for end users, taiga for us, gitlab issues for manual generation 14:50 cait #link https://gitlab.com/koha-community/koha-manual/issues 14:49 caroline ok good to know 14:49 cait the others are for how the manual works/is generated 14:49 cait i took careof the only content issueon gitlab 14:48 caroline for us 14:48 caroline the rest is more of a workflow question 14:48 georgew yes 14:48 cait yep 14:48 caroline I think we agreed that bugzilla is for librarians/end users 14:48 cait maybe as gitlab is not so much used, postpone and see? 14:48 Joubu I would just say "use whichever it better for you" :) 14:47 cait also then they need to differentiate - manual goes to gitlab, others go to bugzilla 14:47 cait i think gitlab might be too scary 14:47 cait for filing issues 14:47 cait Joubu: the contribs here are librarians 14:46 Joubu given the numbers of contributors it should not be a problem anyway 14:46 Joubu as we moved our sideprojects to gitlab it would make sense to use gitlab 14:46 caroline (is he still here?) 14:46 caroline Joubu what are the advantages of this vs the other methods? 14:45 caroline gitlab issues? Joubu seems to use it more? 14:44 cait no, i like it :) 14:44 caroline it was a joke but ok! :) 14:44 georgew cait: +1 14:44 cait #idea Add a section to the manual on how to file a bug for the manual 14:44 caroline #agreed the recommended point of entry for documentation issues is bugzilla (module Documentation) 14:43 cait caroline: +1 14:43 cait so we agree recommended point of entry is bugzilla? then we could add it as #agreed 14:43 georgew and some of them actually do that 14:43 caroline we could add a section to the manual on how to file a bug for the manual XD 14:43 georgew for my own libraries, I just tell them to tell me 14:42 georgew yes. that's simple enough 14:42 caroline #action caroline will go through the framapad and add what needs to be added to taiga and then either close it or send ppl over to bugzilla 14:42 cait so maybe just tell them: manual - make a new bug with module "Documentation" 14:41 georgew that's why having too many avenues for contact is a bigger problem than having too few 14:41 caroline *manual 14:41 caroline that's what I think too that's why I was proposing to add a note to the manuel 14:41 cait and delete from wiki 14:41 cait :) 14:41 cait if you can't delete - put a big note to use bugzilla 14:41 cait +1 14:41 georgew the biggest barrier for end users is, when they have a problem, they don't know what to do to solve the problem - they don't know who to contact or how to contact them 14:41 caroline I could go through and add the rest and then delete it 14:40 caroline I see that a lot has been added to taiga already 14:39 cait we could always save a last version too 14:39 georgew no, I don't think that's a problem at all 14:39 cait i think it has a time line 14:39 cait georgew: do you think registration for bugzilla would be too much of a hurdle if there was no framapad? 14:39 caroline do we know if there are any changes to framapad recently? 14:39 cait mail pushes into your inbox, no need to think about it (mailing list) 14:39 cait that's more an issue i think 14:39 cait the framapad needs someone to look at it regularly 14:39 caroline framapad? 14:38 caroline ok 14:38 cait it's low maint for us right now... so it hink keeping it is not an issue 14:38 caroline maybe ppl use the main mailing list for questions relating to the manual 14:37 georgew so if we do that, discouraging gitlab issues stops being a problem 14:37 cait or we could have it killed 14:37 caroline I haven't seen anything in the mailing list for a while 14:37 cait so maybe we can just ignore it for now 14:37 georgew I'm reading the gitlab integration and it looks like if we integrate the two, gitlab issues will get pushed to taiga 14:37 cait I advertised the mailing list, but if I didn't miss anything, it's not really been used 14:37 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=20210 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jesse, NEW , Claimed Return 14:37 bag bug 20210 14:36 caroline we still have taiga, framapad, gitlab issues and mailing list 14:36 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14697 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, kyle.m.hall, NEW , Extend and enhance "Claims returned" lost status 14:36 cait we also have the release notes there and need to refer to it, so i think it makes sense 14:36 bag bug 14697 14:36 * ashimema likes pretty.. and functional 14:36 caroline so we keep bugzilla for sure since it's core to koha 14:35 * ashimema isn't a fan of bugzilla.. but it's what the community have been using for dev for ever 14:35 cait i think it could still be useful as an internal tool for core docs team 14:35 cait hehe 14:35 caroline I know you devs don't worry about pretty, but it's important! ;) 14:34 caroline and also, it's prettier! :) 14:34 caroline I like taiga more than bugzilla because I find it easier to use, but maybe that's just because I use it more 14:33 ashimema https://tree.taiga.io/support/integrations/gitlab-integration/ 14:33 * ashimema likes gtlab issues + bugzilla.. no idea what going on in taiga or framapad 14:33 caroline There is an integration with gitlab 14:32 cait i am not sure 14:32 georgew is there a way to connect gitlab issues and taiga? 14:32 cait if we keep the framapad I suggest cleaning - and maybe discourage use of gitlab-issues? 14:31 georgew that's too many 14:31 caroline Is there a default assignee for documentation bugs on bugzilla? 14:31 cait so we got: framapad, bugzilla, gitlab-issues, taiga and mailing list... 14:31 cait maybe requires someone to look over the config 14:30 cait but no public archives it appears hm 14:30 cait so we have admin there and it should now work as the other lists (I hope) 14:30 cait http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-docs 14:30 cait i didn't have power of that in the beginning, but sent LeeJ the password when handing over 14:29 cait koha-docs i think, sec 14:29 cait there is a list 14:29 cait looking at it.... we should at least clean it up 14:29 caroline do we have an email address where people who don't have bugzilla account could just send us a quick email? 14:28 caroline georgew: lol! 14:28 georgew But, I've never seen anyone that I've encouraged to use it actually use it. 14:28 caroline on the other hand, the framapad is easy and no registration is needed 14:28 ashimema to date I've used it to highlight that my submission is awaiting the bug being pushed from bugzilla before it makes sense to go into the manual (adding WIP at the beggining of the merge request name prevent an early merge) 14:28 georgew I come to these meetings mostly so I can tell the people in koh-US what's going on and one of the things I like about the Framapad is that it's easy 14:27 cait encouraging people to use bugzilla is good and registration is easy 14:27 cait yes, i think that makes most sense 14:27 georgew If we got rid of the framapad, I'd be in favor of caroline's suggestion about filing a bug in bugzilla 14:27 cait not sure how the footer works, but we could definitely put something in the beginning of the manual 14:27 ashimema do you guys use the WIP flag in your merge requests 14:26 caroline Could we maybe add a footer in the manual saying that if readers see errors or something that is missing they should file a bug in bugzilla? 14:26 cait i used that before taiga was introduced 14:25 cait i think maybe we could kill the framapad 14:25 ashimema It's really hard to know where to look 14:25 cait that's my feeling too, too many entry points 14:25 cait ah yes, sorry, had to look up the word :) 14:25 ashimema I felt that.. there's too many places this stuff lives.. 14:25 ashimema mmm.. 14:25 cait disperse? 14:25 caroline We have a framapad too, in addition to gitlab issues and taiga 14:24 caroline I don't know if I'm being too anal, but I have a feeling we are dispersing the tasks 14:23 cait caroline++ again for that :) 14:23 cait and a module 14:23 cait shoudl we encourage using the issues on gitlab too or better not? we also have a keyword in bugzilla 14:23 caroline I don't know if I did that since the last meeting or before, but I added a section to that wiki page about working in a local repository 14:23 cait not all people have taiga accoutns 14:23 cait but maybe a workflow question would be where to encourage people to add new issues 14:23 cait i think it was just there when he added the page from the last one 14:22 ashimema davidnind by the looks 14:22 cait from last meetings 14:22 cait i think it might have carried over 14:22 caroline I'm guessing someone wanted to talk about it 14:21 cait aah 14:21 caroline There is a bullet point in the Workflow topic about Editing the manual 14:21 cait I wrote some of the page 14:21 cait sorry, to which section? 14:21 cait hm? 14:21 caroline Who added the https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Editing_the_Koha_Manual to the section? 14:20 caroline #topic Workflows 14:20 caroline maybe we can talk about this in the next topic 14:19 caroline Joubu has also been adding issues to gitlab 14:18 caroline cool! ashimema++ 14:18 cait ashimema++ 14:18 ashimema not all that recently.. but I am trying to set an example by submitting a docs patch along with any developments we submit of late 14:17 cait https://tree.taiga.io/project/ldjamison-kohadocs-1805/task/440 14:17 caroline I see ashimema has been active too 14:17 caroline #link https://gitlab.com/koha-community/koha-manual/merge_requests 14:17 caroline yes, I'm looking at the merge requests right now 14:17 cait and i've split up another chapter on LeeJ's request 14:16 cait I've rewritten patron import a bit and updated it - i think it needs to be merged still 14:16 caroline anybody else want to share what they've done? 14:16 cait :) 14:15 caroline #action lucyvh will send training ppt to caroline 14:15 caroline thanks! 14:15 lucyvh Caroline, will do 14:14 caroline lucyvh: can you send the ppt to me? I'll see if I can get more info out of it 14:14 ashimema thanks lucyvh 14:13 caroline thank you cait, I keep forgetting :) 14:13 lucyvh We've probably got a training powerpoint, not any scenarios though 14:13 ashimema yeah.. she typo'd that.. can't be me ;) 14:13 cait hm not sure i can action, but like that :) 14:13 cait #action ashimea to see about sharing internal docs for homebound/real use case info 14:13 caroline do they have like procedures that they use? I could include that in the section maybe? 14:12 ashimema I just asked one of our trainers above ^ if we have some internal docs we can share.. it's been a while since we've trained it though.. customers use it.. but not large numbers of them 14:12 cait i am totally with you on explaining how to use things real life 14:11 caroline :) 14:11 cait and caroline++ :) 14:11 cait i think maybe reports? 14:11 cait i think the functionality in Koha is not the issue... but as she states, how to you actually use the features for organizing the workflow 14:10 cait ashimema: you have some using it i think? 14:10 ashimema lucyvh: do we have any internal docs regarding housebound we can share to help caroline 14:10 caroline I wrote the housebound section, but I'm having a hard time getting an idea how this would be used in real life 14:10 ashimema this one: https://tree.taiga.io/project/ldjamison-kohadocs-1805/task/561 14:10 caroline Sorry, context: 14:09 caroline I was thinking we could get someone who's using the module to maybe write a use case? 14:09 cait ii ttakes a little getting used to, but i like it 14:09 caroline #link https://tree.taiga.io/project/ldjamison-kohadocs-1805/task/561 14:08 * ashimema finds taiga hard to navigate 14:08 cait logs = minutes 14:08 cait #link https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Documentation_IRC_meeting_14_August_2018 Agenda 14:07 caroline one sec 14:07 cait you can use #link for the logs 14:07 cait caroline: can you share a link maybe? 14:07 cait ah, not got the email, maybe i shoudl check! 14:07 * ashimema reminds himself whats on the taiga 14:07 caroline Yes, about homebound, maybe you've seen my rant on Taiga 14:06 georgew #info George Williams, NEKLS 14:06 lucyvh #info Lucy Vaux-Harvey, PTFS Europe 14:06 caroline I've seen that there are a couple of merge requests on gitlab 14:06 cait like your work on homebound? 14:06 cait i think we have some patches waiting to be merged right now 14:06 caroline So LeeJ is not here, I guess he would be more up to date as to what has been done 14:05 caroline #topic What's been done so far 14:04 cait sorry, too easily distracted today 14:04 cait #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 14:04 ashimema #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe 14:04 caroline cait? 14:04 caroline #info Caroline Cyr La Rose, inLibro 14:03 Joubu #info Jonathan Druart 14:03 caroline Oh right, wahanui is not here 14:03 caroline (please use "#info" in front of your introduction to have it show up in the automatic minutes) 14:03 caroline #topic Introductions 14:02 huginn` The meeting name has been set to 'documentation_irc_meeting_14_august_2018' 14:02 huginn` Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 14:02 huginn` Meeting started Tue Aug 14 14:02:55 2018 UTC. The chair is caroline. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:02 caroline #startmeeting Documentation IRC meeting 14 August 2018 14:02 caroline ok, here we go (chairing baptism here, please be patient) 14:02 Joubu kidclamp: let's see that later ;) 14:02 cait i am here 14:02 Joubu kidclamp: so, 3 failures on last run: 1. Reserves.t is random (I will provide a diag patch for this one), 2. XISBN - their webservice returns 500, 3 - selenium test is failing, now idea what (do not recreate here, do you?) 14:02 cait no?:) 14:01 caroline Everybody ready for the meeting? 13:54 ashimema more likely it's just an intermitten failure.. I think allot of people got upset when they claimed they were discontinueing it 13:52 Joubu k 13:51 ashimema perhaps they finally got around to doing so 13:51 ashimema well they've been promising to kill it off for years Joubu 13:51 huginn` Bug 21210: new feature, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , Elasticsearch based SRU server 13:51 kohaputti If anybody is interested about the Elasticsearch based SRU server: https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=21210 – there's a patch now 13:51 Joubu xisbn.worldcat.org is down, anybody knows why? 13:43 caroline Good morning! 13:43 tcohen morning 13:37 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=20226 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Pushed to Master , Get rid of CATCODE_MULTI param decision in patron perl scripts 13:37 Joubu oleonard: quick reminder (I forgot so you may have too): bug 20226 is now pushed, with the str/stuffs.inc to storethe strings 13:28 jenkins Project Koha_Master_D8 build #27: UNSTABLE in 35 min: https://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_Master_D8/27/ 13:28 cait so i got xmpp and some others and it's all just one app 13:28 cait fredericd: i am using pidgin - it supports more than IRC 13:27 caroline Freddy_Enrique: I use smuxi and there seems to have one version for windows 13:27 oleonard oleonard: I don't use the browser addon version because I don't want Chatzilla to crash when Firefox does 13:26 oleonard Freddy_Enrique: If you're interested in Chatzilla, search for "standalone Chatzilla" 13:26 Freddy_Enrique Ok... google chrome out of the question 13:23 Freddy_Enrique Chatzilla... let see.... 13:23 * oleonard is quite loyal to Chatzilla when using Windows 13:22 Joubu and not all IRC channels have logs ;) 13:22 jenkins Project Koha_Master_U18 build #27: UNSTABLE in 27 min: https://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_Master_U18/27/ 13:22 caroline Joubu: ah! you are right 13:22 Freddy_Enrique gonna try another one+ 13:21 Freddy_Enrique Cant install Pidgin in my windows 10... 13:21 Joubu and grep is my friend 13:21 Joubu caroline: not pm 13:20 cait and it's totally true 13:19 cait caroline: <3 13:18 jenkins Project Koha_Master_D9 build #539: STILL UNSTABLE in 24 min: https://jenkins.koha-community.org/job/Koha_Master_D9/539/ 13:18 caroline Joubu: I meant, the channel is logged and the logs are available on the web 13:17 Joubu caroline: no idea I have never used an IRC webchat actually :) 13:17 caroline cait: https://gph.is/22L2mAv 13:15 caroline hehehe! 13:14 cait btw i voted - do i get a sticker now? :) 13:14 cait thx! 13:14 caroline cait: no prob 13:14 cait ping me if I forget plz :) 13:13 caroline but we already have logs on the web no? 13:13 Joubu logs 13:12 Freddy_Enrique I should ask before the meeting. Is there any benefit using an IRC software than the IRC based on the web? 13:11 caroline good morning Freddy_Enrique ! 13:11 Freddy_Enrique buenos dias caroline 13:11 Freddy_Enrique Good morning people 13:10 caroline Joubu: yes at 14UTC 13:10 Joubu (I think) 13:10 Joubu cait: meeting is in 1h 13:08 Joubu oleonard: yes please, you can comment and change the status. Then I will add your SO-by lines on the remote branch 13:05 cait to be consistent again - dot is good, enter alland everything using dot until further notice 13:05 cait we really need to make progress with the solution victor was working on... or, what i would prefer right now, fix the behaviour at least 13:04 cait if you enter 10.00 it will turn it into 1000 13:04 cait isn't that fun? :( 13:04 cait you have to order with decimal dot, but you have to receive with decimal comma 13:04 cait when you set CurrencyFormat to EUR 13:03 kidclamp what are you fighting cait? 13:01 ashimema acq.. my favourite topic right now.. ;') 13:01 cait struggling with acq.. 13:00 caroline yup 13:00 cait in an hour, right? 13:00 caroline ok! 13:00 cait still can help when needed 13:00 cait please try your hand , i will be here but my concentration is not best today 13:00 cait ugh, poor one 13:00 calire hi caroline 12:59 caroline Also, good morning everyone! 12:59 cait oh reading his emai lnow sec 12:59 caroline At least we know he wasn't abducted by aliens ;) 12:59 caroline cait: did you get LeeJ's email? You want to chair? I can try my hand at it 12:58 ashimema oleonard++... oh noes.. now that means one of us has to QA it 12:57 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=13618 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Needs Signoff , Prevent XSS in the Staff Client and the OPAC 12:57 oleonard Joubu, QA: Is a "signed off" comment adequate for Bug 13618? I hereby grant it the title "Signed off." 12:56 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18723 critical, P5 - low, ---, victor.grousset, ASSIGNED , Dot not recognized as decimal separator 12:56 kidclamp bug 18723 12:56 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=18273 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Bulkmarcimport inserts authority duplicates 12:56 kidclamp bug 18273 12:52 cait hm I would like to bring 18723 back to attention 12:52 * oleonard cheers 12:52 cait that's life ;) 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 19743: Update header and footer on each item for checkin / checkout / renewal... <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=e8c42c3a94d25d672181b5ad4f023d4aa54288a5> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 19743: Unit Tests <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=8255c8edcf34487a8bfe5fe2a7592097684b2220> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 18236: MARC21 - Add classes to material type on intranet detail and results pages <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=484067b228d5cce461c6199b85b2b87cacd3ae40> 12:51 ashimema oh noes.. my queue just got filled up 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 20795: Pass incrreased verbosity to zebra rebuild script <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=1dfb177d3fff713185bcb0aa86517ef40629fedc> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 20226: Centralize update child code (CATCODE_MULTI) <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=81431ee28a3ee128aa7fa5bfb40400b17c868786> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21121: Added new system preference to control hiding of personal patron informati... <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=3aef9a158ba866e2ce8a712e87ae9f2ae3b7ed40> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21112: Re-indent staff client cart template <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=4ae91ba2633bac7ec607c8519433ba3cacbde1fd> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21137: Standardize breadcrumbs for tags page <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=8fc88514c35a9b6cfa9ce93e38ebb7aa2a36ccd1> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21137: Replace USER_INFO with logged_in_user <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=889f148e4ed85abde34e73fba3840a54c9953419> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21137: Replace BORROWER_INFO with logged_in_user <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=9d10d076122c4adb6c14b1b86b3bcca0e33ecc4a> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21121: Add the IGNORE clause <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=12dd41ed661c6f120e90f93e5f528abb51871d82> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21137: use logged_in_user from opac-user.pl <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=27bf38f34f03a5bc26abb8f928a8e37c3486b91e> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 20795: Inform the user about this change, add to pod <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=e97f6ab9be6108cbe4d61ea8dd4b876527bd67ba> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21139: Floating toolbars - Remove unecessary height <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=2588811ef249f0996527e952e4ef5307c1834a71> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21139: Floating toolbar - Remove horizontal scrollbar on resize <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=b5520f3e019f38cbd2ea75be0a13806f68a2f515> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21139: Floating toolbar - Resize toolbar on window resize <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=5ecf4da7d49357832b77ee087d968e071ab46b93> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21139: No table in toolbar <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=40577065b60ab87330f1fc0c3e6bbe52f2373e6c> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21164: Fix alignment on new basket form in acquisitions <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=2280877fdd9685aecff0b144319ca3bffc39b78a> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21185: Incorrect title tag on tags review page <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=ad0f90b797c77b853ff61501310892282f582988> 12:51 huginn` News from kohagit: Bug 21121: DBRev 18.06.00.014 <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=ed6070a5b43d0f3baaaf07c67faaa92baf00e7aa> 12:49 cait i always forget about it :) 12:48 calire I can be purple blob 12:48 calire aaaw 12:46 oleonard calire: You could do both! We just have to revive the old Koha mascot Blobby https://zivotdesign.com/p/view.php?p=15342507495260 12:46 Joubu hi #koha 12:44 calire kidclamp++ 12:44 * kidclamp feels like this is the one chance to talk about catchingn three shiny evees on pokemon go community day 12:42 cait oleonard: i just trust your follow-ups too much maybe :) 12:41 calire if the library thing doesn't work out I might move to Japan and become a mascot 12:41 oleonard calire: It's amazing to look at how other countries do things and know with such certainty that they're doing it better. 12:39 calire oleonard: current status: https://twitter.com/elenacresci/status/1028974240287141888 12:38 ashimema haha 12:38 oleonard ashimema: But can you sing? 12:34 * ashimema can't type today :( 12:33 eythian ashimema: singing? 12:33 oleonard cait: Or maybe dropped a signoff in rebasing? But it didn't look like it according to the history. 12:33 oleonard cait: I don't think the last patch ever got a signoff 12:32 ashimema singing off all the things of course oleonard 12:32 huginn` Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=17674 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, charles.farmer, Needs Signoff , Allow UI to delete serials issues in batch 12:32 cait oleonard: why bug 17674 back to nso? 12:31 oleonard What are we doin' today? 12:24 calire hi oleonard 12:24 kidclamp hi oleonard 12:21 oleonard Hi #koha 11:59 ashimema oops 11:59 ashimema lol 11:59 cait ashimema: oleonErd? hadn't seen that one yet - also fitting ;) 11:57 cait oleonard++ indeed :) 11:17 * kidclamp waves 09:43 huginn Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=13618 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Needs Signoff , Prevent XSS in the Staff Client and the OPAC 09:43 ashimema oleonerd++ # diligently working through bug 13618 09:39 tuxayo Hopefully such a page will be in the common namespace and be linked in the relevant places so people needing it will find it. 09:34 andreashm tuxayo: yay for documentation 09:28 tuxayo https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/User:Victor_Grousset_-_tuxayo:Draft:Real_world_upgrade_feedback#Duplicates_in_deletedbiblioitems 09:28 tuxayo At least now it's documented there :) 09:21 tuxayo (while planning to fix the duplicates in deletedbiblioitems in production) 09:21 tuxayo So by change we can be ~lazy~ efficient here and just move on ^^ 09:19 tuxayo Only Koha/OAI/Server/ListBase.pm 09:19 tuxayo andreashm: it's only a test instance and after investigating, very few code use deletedbiblio_metadata 09:18 tuxayo *to avoid 09:18 tuxayo andreashm: We have a DB dump. But it's too avoid rerunning a 1h updatedatabase + other DB operations that were done after. 09:08 andreashm tuxayo: working with VM's? Rollback to a backup, fix the issue and upgrade again? 09:06 tuxayo andreashm: updatedatabase fail on the instruction populating deletedbiblio_metadata 09:06 andreashm we had an issue with a column in the borrowers table that wasn't created though 09:06 andreashm tuxayo: we are upgrading our production server now and I can't see any issues with deletedbiblio_metadata, for whatever that is worth. so if you clean up the data that caused the issue on the testserver, I would _guess_ that the issue can be ignored. 08:47 tuxayo Se the question is whether we can ignore the issue in the test instance about this two tables? 08:46 tuxayo And the production we will fix the duplicate data that led to the error. So the real upgrade won't have this issue. 08:46 tuxayo Hi, during the upgrade of a test instance to 17.11, the deletedbiblioitems wasn't filed deletedbiblio_metadata (insert failled due to constraints) Will this afect the usability of Koha? On this instance, we don't plan to manually interact with deletedbiblio_metadata or deletedbiblio_metadata 08:13 andreashm hi #koha 07:18 * magnuse waves 06:49 reiveune hello 06:24 huginn ashimema: Stevenage, United Kingdom :: Partly Cloudy :: 57F/14C | Tuesday: A mix of clouds and sun during the morning will give way to cloudy skies this afternoon. High 77F. Winds W at 10 to 15 mph. Tuesday Night: Mainly clear. Low 58F. Winds WSW at 10 to 15 mph. 06:24 ashimema @wunder Stevenage, United Kingdom 06:03 paxed it's not summer anymore :/ 06:03 huginn paxed: Joensuu, Finland :: Mostly Cloudy :: 54F/12C | Tuesday: Mainly cloudy. High 58F. Winds NNW at 5 to 10 mph. Tuesday Night: Partly cloudy skies. Low 43F. Winds light and variable. 06:03 paxed @wunder joensuu 06:03 huginn cait: Konstanz, Germany :: Mostly Cloudy :: 64F/18C | Wind Chill: 64F/18C | Tuesday: Increasing clouds with showers arriving this afternoon. High 76F. Winds WSW at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 50%. Tuesday Night: Some clouds. Low 58F. Winds light and variable. 06:03 cait @wunder Konstanz