Time Nick Message
23:15 rangi lisa did it
23:15 wizzyrea omg my clone
23:15 wizzyrea I think we should adopt it
23:14 wizzyrea really really
23:14 wizzyrea i actually really like the intricacy of that logo
23:14 rangi ^H2
23:14 rangi hehe
23:13 * mle gets the Tippex
23:11 rangi you are welcome to it, if you want to change the 0 to a 2 :)
23:10 mle rangi: that is a pretty logo.
22:59 slef so if it's not in the acq pile, it didn't exist?
22:58 wizzyrea i have never seen a vector art copy of it
22:58 slef what do you mean it's not been catalogued?
22:57 wizzyrea if we can find it
22:57 wizzyrea Yes, we should
22:57 slef hrm shouldn't we have the source code for the logo in git? ;)
22:56 wizzyrea is fancy
22:56 wizzyrea oh I rather like that lil logo better
22:55 rangi http://www.kohacon10.org.nz/static/discoverer/koha.png
22:55 rangi they used something to create this
22:54 rangi mle: ill ask our designers
22:52 mle :p
22:52 wizzyrea I don't
22:51 mle http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/File:Koha-logo-black-and-white.jpg anyone got the vector art here?
22:35 slef surely it should be 3Mulator?
22:27 wizzyrea heya
22:27 Brooke o/
22:24 wizzyrea history ftw.
22:24 wizzyrea dpavlin++
22:24 rangi heh
22:23 wizzyrea so great I can't spell.
22:23 wizzyrea that's awesoem.
22:23 rangi not me
22:23 wizzyrea oh who added the bit to the wiki re: the 3M emulator!
22:10 slef http://m.itn.co.uk/36283_120104olympics04.html
22:08 rangi heh
22:08 slef whatever us or code4lib do with registrations, we still beat the London Olympics - another goof announced today
22:00 wizzyrea woooooot
21:59 rangi http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_SIP2_server_setup#Testing_with_Telnet
21:59 sekjal night, #koha
21:53 wizzyrea Also, I was trying to think of new FAQ's
21:52 wizzyrea yes rangi++
21:51 gmcharlt rangi++
21:51 rangi heh
21:51 gmcharlt ;)
21:51 gmcharlt thief!
21:51 rangi gmcharlt++
21:50 rangi gmcharlt: im gonna steal your how to test SIP instructions and put them on the wiki
21:32 wizzyrea lulz
21:32 rangi man i should go to meetings more often, you guys fix everything when im not here
21:31 rangi back
21:23 wizzyrea bye - (that's what I get for not paying attention)
21:16 * oleonard will have to test tomorrow... quitting time
21:14 wizzyrea amount owed, or something
21:14 wizzyrea also, fines messages go in that "messages" field as well
21:14 * gmcharlt muses how well the debarred message would play with the patrons of a law library
21:13 oleonard gmcharlt++
21:13 gmcharlt (and yes, sekjal's patch works0
21:12 wizzyrea gmcharlt++
21:12 pastebot "gmcharlt" at 65.15.86.218 pasted "for oleonard: how to test SIP" (31 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/185
21:12 sekjal if we used branch transfers to answer the third, we may be all set
21:12 sekjal homebranch and holdingbranch answer the first two questions
21:12 wizzyrea adding a "check status" function to the transfers page
21:12 wizzyrea I was just discussing today
21:11 wizzyrea right, branchtransfers could generate a whole lot more metadata
21:11 sekjal there are so many variables to track: who owns the book? where is it now? where is supposed to be, and why?
21:11 wizzyrea and we have the building blocks for almost all of it
21:07 wizzyrea I think there are more similarities than subtle differences.
21:06 wizzyrea but, at the same time
21:06 wizzyrea true
21:06 sekjal unfortunately, it's wicked complex, and every library will want a slightly different workflow
21:05 sekjal we seriously need to revisit our logic behind item transfers...
21:05 wizzyrea and the items get stuck wherever they are
21:05 wizzyrea double misroutes usually make transfers go away
21:04 wizzyrea checkins
21:04 wizzyrea especially after a couple of checkind
21:04 wizzyrea I happen to know that misroutes can cause all sorts of funky
21:04 * wizzyrea can create that too
21:04 wizzyrea like, the item is at library A, *should be* at library B, but is really at library C?
21:04 sekjal or, it could be that the item is already at branch B
21:03 sekjal possibly
21:03 wizzyrea so is there a hypothetical library C in there somewhere?
21:03 wizzyrea hmm
21:03 sekjal only, I'm getting a "transfer to HOMEBRANCH" message instead of "not checked out"
21:03 sekjal wizzyrea: that is exactly it
21:01 wizzyrea 2. convulse wildly
21:01 wizzyrea 1. wait for the drop
21:01 wizzyrea which reminds me of "how you dance to dubstep"
21:00 * oleonard goes to watch the video of wizzyrea's interpretive dance
21:00 wizzyrea without the mistake of course ;)
21:00 wizzyrea or what you were trying to do
21:00 wizzyrea this is my interpretation of what you told me you were doing: http://screencast.com/t/q3NxANVX8S
20:58 wizzyrea hmm
20:57 sekjal a partner library is having some difficulties getting stuff moved between their branches and bookmobile
20:57 wahanui the first question is "What are you trying to do?"
20:57 wizzyrea the first question?
20:57 wizzyrea the 1st question
20:57 wizzyrea what is this in response to?
20:57 sekjal I think there is some data funkiness complicating my test case
20:57 sekjal I don't know
20:57 sekjal ugh
20:56 wizzyrea yep
20:56 sekjal and set to return to homebranch?
20:55 wizzyrea yes, we do
20:55 slef hehe... not what I thought: http://www.evergreencoop.com/
20:55 wizzyrea yes, I believe so, let me double check
20:55 sekjal wizzyrea: do you have automatic item return on?
20:54 slef seneca: (a deb-src line for squeeze, dpkg-dev installed and probably other stuff I forget)
20:54 wizzyrea afaik you just check it in, and it says "not checked out"
20:54 sekjal wizzyrea: how to you 'receive' a transfer that was initiated from the branch transfers page?
20:54 slef seneca: apt-get source --build liblocale-currency-format-perl # if all else is configured
20:53 slef seneca: upgrade, or backport that package for an easier upgrade later
20:53 wizzyrea sekjal we use those pages
20:53 seneca I know...
20:53 slef seneca: lenny end of life next month, you know?
20:52 seneca lenny still
20:52 wizzyrea I think you're right
20:52 sekjal I think that, odd as it seems, "cancel transfer" is the right action
20:51 slef seneca: are you on squeeze?
20:51 sekjal so checkin must not be the right action to "accept" a transfer
20:51 slef My apt-cache finds this package: liblocale-currency-format-perl - Perl functions for formatting monetary values
20:51 sekjal instead of clearing the transfer and "accepting" the material
20:51 sekjal if you transfer a material from it's homebranch A to branch B, then try to check it in, if HomeOrHoldingBranchReturn is set to 'homebranch', it immediately asks you to return it
20:50 sekjal I think there is a problem with using branch transfers and automatic item return
20:50 slef s/installed/configured
20:50 oleonard (branches used as shelving locations I think)
20:50 slef seneca: no, it's only the locally-cached listings and only for the currently-installed distributions
20:50 oleonard sekjal: I seem to recall libraries using them to move items between "virtual" branches
20:50 sekjal slef: could be vestigial
20:49 seneca I think that "apt-cache search" searches the descriptions from packages.debian.org
20:49 slef sekjal: surely someone must else they wouldn't have been written?</useless>
20:49 sekjal anyone use the Transfers and Transfers to Receive pages in Circ?
20:49 slef use the file search on http://packages.debian.org ?
20:48 seneca trying the cpan module
20:48 slef nooo
20:48 seneca I did the same thing, but that package isn't being found by apt...
20:48 wizzyrea i typed in "debian package locale currency format" (no quotes)
20:48 * wizzyrea had to look it up
20:47 jcamins_away ^^ better.
20:47 wizzyrea liblocale-currency-format-perl
20:47 wizzyrea or package
20:47 jcamins_away seneca: think so.
20:47 seneca is it that easy? ;)
20:47 seneca (Oh yeah, Happy New Year, everyone!)
20:47 jcamins Locale::Currency?
20:47 jcamins Thanks.
20:47 seneca Anyone know what Perl module supplies Locale/Currency/Format.pm?
20:47 wizzyrea gl
20:47 wizzyrea ha later
20:47 jcamins Wish us luck.
20:46 jcamins Good night, #koha.
20:46 jcamins And with that thought, I'm going home.
20:46 jcamins Yikes! I've never seen anything like that.
20:45 wizzyrea is that a mysql version thing?
20:39 slef I think NR was completely taken by UK Financial Asset Management = gov.uk's proxy
20:39 slef but still technically a working bank
20:38 slef got into trouble, sold a chunk to gov.uk
20:38 wizzyrea I suspect I'm doing something wrong.
20:38 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7001 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, srdjan, ASSIGNED , User Configurable Slips
20:38 wizzyrea I'm trying to test the receipts dev on bug 7001 - and I see this: http://screencast.com/t/1Uc1a6FPFbt
20:38 slef didn't actually fail
20:38 * jcamins would've thought the Bank of Scotland would be the largest failed bank.
20:38 slef aaaany way ;)
20:37 slef jcamins: also, the largest failed UK bank, Northern Rock, was one of them.
20:37 slef jcamins: none of the demutualised dozen survives as an independent institution any more and very few survive even as a shopfront brand, although one may soon be bought by the UK's largest co-op.
20:35 slef jcamins: trouble here was in the 1980s/90s that a majority of savers and borrowers of about a dozen societies were convinced that all this member control was a problematic overhead and they sold out to banks and other capitalists.
20:31 jcamins slef: sounds like a good idea to me.
20:31 gmcharlt I can feed you a couple in a momenty
20:31 gmcharlt typical approach is to copy and paste lines and examine the responses
20:31 gmcharlt oleonard: testing SIP2 can be done from telnet
20:30 gmcharlt sekjal: one thign that would help testing the bug would be identifying whether the relevant message is the patron information request, the checkout message, or both
20:30 slef jcamins: I think the theory of building societies used to be that the community put all its money in a pot, built a few houses with less reliance on the bankers, then as the first wave repaid, newer borrowers could build their homes. Cooperation in action!
20:29 sekjal testing SIP2 is always a huge pain
20:29 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7396 minor, PATCH-Sent, ---, ian.walls, NEW , Debarred message not displayed over SIP2
20:29 oleonard Speaking of which, Bug 7396 needs signoff but I'm not sure how one tests
20:24 cait some things don't give nice feedback though and were a bit of a problem
20:24 cait to translate what they get from koha into something that makes more sense
20:24 cait I think the vendors we worked with use their software
20:24 cait translatability would be a plus
20:24 cait about the messages
20:23 * rangi is gone
20:23 rangi so all good
20:23 rangi setting up single sign on
20:23 jcamins [off] Tell them not to use the US Federal Reserve as a model for anything other than exhibitions.
20:22 wizzyrea gl with them
20:22 rangi bbiab
20:22 * rangi heads off to the reserve bank
20:22 wizzyrea ^^
20:20 gmcharlt eh, if we had hooks to customize strings, may as well make them fully translateable from the get-go
20:20 gmcharlt but a strings file that belonged to SIPServer itself, on the other hand...
20:20 sekjal but it's not now... and at least the syspref values could be edited to match local languages
20:19 sekjal true
20:19 gmcharlt sekjal: one quibble - Constants.pm / Messages.pm wouldn't be (inherently) translateable
20:19 sekjal and wouldn't it be nice to change/remove that "Greetings from Koha." message?
20:18 oleonard The SIP2 messages are the only way for us to communicate to the patron why they couldn't log in, since the rest of the Overdrive system is closed to us
20:18 sekjal then have them look up sysprefs. if they exist, use, else fall back to defaults
20:18 sekjal oleonard: standard messages could be added to either the Constants.pm, or a Messages.pm,
20:17 gmcharlt but to answer your comment seriously, yeah, an interface to edit SIP2 messages would be nice; there are some similar requests floating out there for Evergreen
20:16 gmcharlt oleonard: FUD of the day -- Koha is making patrons expire!
20:14 cait oleonard: perhaps better have a separate interface for it - but would like it
20:14 cait jcamins: lol
20:13 jcamins cait: if you question that this cat is blue, you should see my formerly-black trousers.
20:13 oleonard Overdrive shows the error message it gets from Koha if the patron's account is expired: PATRON EXPIRED. Not very friendly.
20:13 rangi ?
20:12 oleonard Hmmm.. System preference to edit SIP2 responses for errors like expired patron, debarred, etc?
20:11 * wizzyrea sees what you did there
20:10 cait heh :)
20:09 wahanui TT filters are a brilliant idea, and everyone should be using them wherever possible and appropriate.
20:09 jcamins TT filters?
20:09 jcamins TT filters are a brilliant idea, and everyone should be using them wherever possible and appropriate.
20:09 wizzyrea oh snaps
20:09 jcamins TT filters?
20:09 cait rangi++ for making the switch happen, and chrisdothall++ of course
20:09 cait TT++
20:09 jcamins Nice!
20:08 jcamins Especially ones that unpollute C4 by eliminating C4::XSLT.
20:08 rangi http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/attachment.cgi?id=7041&action=diff <-- made of win
20:08 * jcamins too
20:08 rangi i love TT filters
20:04 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 7402] invoice not showing received titles <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7402>
19:58 oleonard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_association#Decline_of_S.26Ls
19:58 * jcamins has always wondered.
19:58 schuster Those all dissappeared in the 80's didn't they?
19:58 * jcamins doesn't know what a savings and loan is.
19:57 oleonard Ah, Wikipedia says the US version is a Savings and Loan.
19:57 rangi we have those here too
19:56 rangi really?
19:56 * oleonard had never heard the term "building society" before
19:56 jcamins As far as I know, credit unions in the US don't offer business accounts.
19:55 slef I wish more UK credit unions and building societies offered business accounts.
19:54 slef jcamins: I think when we hit our sponsorship target, I will accept bank transfers too, but not before else our sponsorship-collecting fees will be higher (I HATE ALL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS BECAUSE OF STUFF LIKE THIS)
19:53 jcamins slef: my solution was to refuse electronic payments, something that unfortunately is not an option in your case.
19:52 jcamins slef: yeah, I've been persuaded that PayPal is not the way to go for receiving electronic payments.
19:51 slef I'm looking at how we take money for kohacon-related things again. I think we may end up with paypal involved, at least until we hit a threshhold. I wish we didn't, but alternatives suck too.
19:51 jcamins slef: charming, isn't it?
19:50 slef bleargh... http://boingboing.net/2012/01/04/paypal-if-you-dont-like-the.html PayPal: if you don't like the violin you bought, smash it and we'll give you your money back
19:43 wizzyrea make ppls happy now + make us happy too!
19:42 wizzyrea can change it to the ID after tho ;)
19:42 rangi and with sugar on top
19:42 rangi twice in fact
19:42 cait me too
19:42 * rangi too
19:42 * oleonard would sign off on that
19:42 jcamins Better.
19:42 jcamins oleonard: yes, I'm saying edveal should add an id and and use CSS.
19:42 rangi :)
19:42 * rangi points up there ^^
19:42 oleonard jcamins: CSS would work if you had an id
19:41 edveal Yes, I have seen the library but thought I would bounce it off this group before hunting around in there.
19:41 rangi faster anyway
19:41 * jcamins thinks CSS would be better.
19:41 * rangi still wants ids on everything :)
19:41 oleonard edveal: Have you seen the jQuery library on the wiki?
19:40 jcamins edveal: just send in a patch. I'm sure it'd get signed off quickly.
19:40 wizzyrea or that
19:40 oleonard $("a[href='/cgi-bin/koha/reports/cat_issues_top.pl']").parent().remove();
19:40 wizzyrea edveal: you can probably select on text in the href
19:40 rangi no, that change should go upstream
19:40 edveal Don't want to mess with the template if I can avoid it.
19:39 rangi ids on everything i say
19:39 rangi but thats a good change anyway
19:39 rangi to make it easier to do
19:39 rangi you may have to edit the template to put it in a span or a div with an id
19:39 edveal Thanks.
19:39 cait ^^ what rangi says
19:38 cait you can use some jquery to do that - or css
19:38 rangi css
19:38 edveal I can clarify but as I understand it yes from everyone.
19:38 rangi yup
19:38 jcamins There should be five patches, right?
19:38 rangi jcamins: cool thanks
19:38 rangi edveal: hide from everyone?
19:37 jcamins No problems here.
19:37 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7402 normal, P3, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , invoice not showing received titles
19:37 rangi i can fix bug 7402 with it!
19:37 edveal As I am wondering what the best way is to hide link within the staff site, specifically the "Most Circulated Items" report link.
19:37 rangi and now the TT filter is passed QA
19:36 cait :)
19:36 * rangi loves these bugs, nz + germany + connecticut + ny so far
19:35 rangi thank you
19:35 jcamins Checking now.
19:34 rangi is what i did
19:34 rangi apply all 5
19:34 rangi checkout master
19:34 rangi yep
19:34 jcamins rangi: the question is whether the last one applies on top of master + the previous patches?
19:33 rangi can you check im not doing something odd?
19:33 huginn 04Bug 929: enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , See details of a budget
19:33 rangi http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=929#c17
19:33 rangi hmm jcamins got 5 mins?
19:32 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 7271] Revert getitems default sort to homebranch instead of holding branch <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7271>
19:30 * rangi checks
19:30 rangi ohh the last 929 one is katrin's ahh maybe i messed it up when i signed off
19:05 rangi back
19:03 gmcharlt e.g., POST /bib/isbn/123456789000x
19:03 gmcharlt secondly, to extend the noun-y semantics to include matchpoints other than the bib ID
19:03 gmcharlt then update the bib
19:02 gmcharlt e.g, POST a bib, get its matches
19:02 gmcharlt *matches
19:02 gmcharlt first being writing a web service to identify patches
19:02 gmcharlt sekjal: if it's the latter, then there are a couple options I suggest
19:01 sekjal gmcharlt: fine by me... though, I need to confirm if staging is the desired behaviour, or if people just want the record to add/overwrite automatically
19:01 gmcharlt er, new year
19:01 gmcharlt cait: jcamins: and a happy new your to you
19:01 jcamins gmcharlt: BTW, C4::UploadedFile is really nicely done.
19:01 jcamins gmcharlt: happy new year!
19:00 cait gmcharlt: happy new year :)
19:00 gmcharlt PUT /svc/import_batch/new_bib
19:00 gmcharlt PUT /svc/import_batch
19:00 gmcharlt or
19:00 gmcharlt PUT /svc/reservoir (to stage a but)
18:59 gmcharlt but how about
18:59 gmcharlt sekjal: not that there's any real requirement to stick to strict RESTful semantics
18:59 rangi my stop bbiab
18:59 rangi speaking of which
18:58 rangi (nz slang ill find you pronounciation when at my desk)
18:58 rangi not even ow
18:57 jcamins rangi: looks like this is your lucky year!
18:57 rangi I haven't written prolog since 1992
18:56 rangi heh
18:56 jcamins Which would not be in prolog.
18:56 rangi rather than a bunch of param
18:56 jcamins In prolog.
18:56 rangi so the biblio, with some conf
18:55 jcamins prolog++
18:55 cait lol
18:55 rangi (the first 2 maybe)
18:55 rangi maybe as xml/yaml/sgml/m5/lisp/prolog
18:53 sekjal would need to post not only the record, but also the matching rule, and perhaps something to indicate the behaviours
18:52 rangi that sounds plausible
18:51 sekjal which doesn't filter items, and puts the biblio in the reservoir first, with a set of matching rules
18:50 sekjal idea: new svc function: stage_bib
18:49 rangi filters are easy to write
18:48 cait I love it
18:48 cait tt is very cool
18:48 jcamins bug 929
18:47 rangi but that depends on Koha::Cache
18:46 rangi I did another one, for memcaching rendered template includes
18:46 jcamins Plugins/filters++
18:45 rangi plugins/filters are cool :)
18:44 rangi ah well should be able to fix it :)
18:44 rangi hmm
18:44 sekjal something about lacking the necessary blobs and hashes
18:44 rangi like that should have worked
18:44 rangi hmm nope
18:44 sekjal should it have gone straight onto master?
18:44 sekjal I applied it on top of the other 4
18:44 rangi I = it
18:43 rangi not sure why I didn't apply
18:43 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=929 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , See details of a budget
18:43 rangi sekjal: thanks for the qa on bug 929 ill look at that last patch after meetings today
18:42 jcamins sekjal: https://github.com/ccatalfo/biblios_old
18:42 rangi however chrisdothall and I have some patches to use the svc/ space for other things (json from reports) so fixing/documenting the other files in there would be great
18:42 gmcharlt rather than have it be a side effect of adding a new bib
18:42 sekjal I ask because there is an existing implementation of an OCLC Connexion Gateway for Koha which makes use of the SVC interface
18:42 gmcharlt to create an item record
18:42 gmcharlt I'd rather that one have to do a PUT /bibs/new_item
18:42 cait would it be hard to add it as an option?
18:42 gmcharlt but even if you think about Koha itself
18:41 gmcharlt in context, letting it accept any old 952 and try to create item records from it ... was not needed
18:41 jcamins sekjal: the biblios code is on github.
18:41 gmcharlt so it's a little biblios-specific in that sense
18:41 gmcharlt sekjal: the reasoning was to avoid having new_bib actually create items
18:40 rangi biblios is dead along with google gears
18:40 cait guess I will get there at some point
18:40 cait heh
18:40 cait eew.
18:40 jcamins cait: you could modify it.
18:40 rangi you might be able to
18:40 rangi not biblio records
18:40 cait ILL
18:39 cait I had hoped we could use it to create ill records and items
18:39 rangi biblios.org
18:39 cait oh
18:39 rangi which may or may not be useful
18:39 cait at all?
18:39 cait so you can't add items using it?
18:39 rangi so had a specific use case
18:39 jcamins sekjal: rangi already did, never mind. :)
18:38 rangi sekjal it was done to work with biblios
18:38 sekjal cait: reading that, now
18:38 jcamins sekjal: actually, I can explain that.
18:38 cait with documentation about it
18:38 cait there is a page on the wiki
18:38 sekjal the add_bib subroutine explicitly deletes all incoming item record fields.... no comment as to why
18:37 jcamins sekjal: not I, but I heard dpavlin was doing stuff with it.
18:36 sekjal looking at the new_bib function makes me... nervous
18:36 sekjal anyone familiar with Koha's SVC support?
18:33 jcamins Welcome back.
18:33 rangi thanks
18:33 cait wb rangi
18:32 rangi back
18:29 jcamins lol
18:29 cait you can do a lot of things with gimp...
18:28 cait and he might be blue
18:28 cait cute
18:28 cait aaw
18:26 jcamins cait: http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/405486_791346268819_24800824_37953367_136499197_n.jpg
18:23 jwagner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_blue_hugo.jpg
18:23 jcamins I'm sure he'll just look gray in a photo, but I'll try.
18:22 cait proove?
18:21 jcamins cait: no, seriously. Apparently British short hair cats can come in blue.
18:20 cait are you feeling wlel jared?
18:20 cait a blue cat?
18:17 rangi ok, gotta go catch my bus, back from the bus
18:17 jcamins He's blue. I had never known cats came in blue before.
18:16 jcamins s/cat/cloud of fur/
18:16 jcamins Chester is my client's cat.
18:16 jcamins That was remarkably appropriate.
18:16 jcamins lol
18:15 wizzyrea wahanui++
18:15 wahanui well, Myshkin is more than articulate enough without me performing his interior monologue.
18:15 cait where is Myshkin?
18:15 wahanui hmmm... Chester is no where near there, ye littlle...
18:15 cait oh Chester?
18:13 wizzyrea is a testing day
18:13 wizzyrea not a lot :)
18:12 rangi sup peeps
18:12 jcamins s/cat/cloud of fur/
18:11 jcamins Chester the cat says hi.
18:11 cait morning rangi :)
18:10 rangi morning :)
18:10 jcamins rangi: good morning.
18:00 jcamins Heh.
18:00 rangi lucky i dont use that for anything important
17:58 rangi heh
17:58 rangi izban12
17:56 jcamins [off] I shouldn't be allowed near a computer when I have a co-op board interview coming up. Apparently it makes me quote Abbott and Costello.
17:55 wizzyrea for koha, silly
17:55 oleonard "Can I train my cat to wear shoes?"
17:55 jcamins Third base.
17:55 jcamins wizzyrea: I don't know.
17:54 gmcharlt ;)
17:54 gmcharlt yes, it's called VirtualBox
17:54 jcamins "Can Koha run under Windows?"
17:54 wizzyrea why not?
17:54 jcamins Frequently, even.
17:54 * jcamins asks that a lot.
17:54 jcamins wizzyrea: Why?
17:53 slef bbl
17:49 wizzyrea Package usage
17:49 wizzyrea hey what are the new FAQ's?
17:21 maximep the client just wanted to see everything expired
17:21 maximep not sure a range would work
17:17 kf why is today important? coudl be preselected to search like that
17:17 kf expired between x and x?
17:17 kf why not justmake it a date range?
17:17 kf I wonder
17:16 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6968 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, colin.campbell, NEW , Show items expired before today in check expiration of serials page
17:16 kf bug 6968
17:16 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6885] Superlibrarian users can't delete items from another library when IndependantBranches <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6885>
17:15 maximep already had the data to test it :/
17:15 wizzyrea ... ok then.
17:14 slef jcamins: sounds euphemistic
17:13 sekjal I'll need to automate record creation based on some odd data sources (like MusicBrainz)
17:13 maximep well I don't know more than you about serials, so not really sure I can provide a test plan
17:13 jcamins sekjal: I know, but I thought I'd water the seed. ;)
17:13 wizzyrea at least it's not clear to me
17:12 sekjal it'll probably be easier for me to convert metadata into MARC than to do arbitrary metadata format support, but I'd like to go there, too
17:12 wizzyrea for those of us who don't use serials everyday it's not really clear how to test it
17:12 wizzyrea maximep: not to be a bother, but may we have a test plan for 6968?
17:12 jcamins Also also awesome: replacing C4::XSLT with a T::T plugin.
17:11 jcamins Also awesome: supporting MODS.
17:11 jcamins sekjal++ # arbitrary bibliographic relationships would be awesome.
17:08 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6968 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, colin.campbell, NEW , Show items expired before today in check expiration of serials page
17:08 jcamins maximep: there are patches that have taken longer.
17:08 wizzyrea bug 6968
17:08 maximep finally had time to fix my patch for 6968... 1 month later :/
17:06 nengard k
17:06 jcamins Once it's fully functional, I look forward to adding it back to Koha proper.
17:06 jcamins nengard: and moved out of Koha-proper, actually.
17:06 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6968] Show items expired before today in check expiration of serials page <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6968>
17:05 nengard heh
17:05 jcamins nengard: it got larger.
17:05 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=1633 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, kmkale, ASSIGNED , Add ability to take book cover images from local img db
17:05 nengard jcamins whatever happened to the easy cataloging interface you were working on
17:05 * jcamins watches sekjal bug himself about QAing bug 1633, and crosses that item off his to-do list.
17:05 sekjal I also want to be able to do more kinds of biblio-to-biblio relationships
17:05 jcamins Can anyone guess what?
17:05 sekjal jcamins: yes, that's pretty neat
17:04 jcamins That reminds me of something on my to-do list!
17:04 jcamins !!
17:04 jcamins sekjal: you mean like uploading images?
17:04 sekjal and customized to do some of the crazy things private libraries may want to do
17:04 sekjal I'm looking forward to getting my home Koha install up and running
17:01 nengard ha!
17:00 oleonard :)
17:00 jcamins oleonard: no, but you saw jcamins' fudge which makes up for it, no? :P
16:59 oleonard Oh sure, that's what they all say. And we never saw jcamins again!
16:58 sekjal I'll be finishing out my term as QAM, if the community allows. I have no indention of leaving Koha; I'll just be changing/scaling back my hours
16:56 jcamins paul_p: I have indeed.
16:56 * wizzyrea did
16:55 paul_p oleonard, & jcamins & wizzyrea & others = have you seen sekjal today announcement ?
16:55 paul_p oleonard, the next step is to signoff bugs from others then, if you don't know what to do ;-)
16:53 sekjal search results have no idea what side (OPAC or staff) they're being compiled for
16:53 oleonard I think you can git branch -d branch1 branch2
16:53 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7401 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, ian.walls, NEW , Shelving Location facet instead of Branch facet when only 1 branch configured
16:53 sekjal got some code for bug 7401.... one minor problem
16:52 nengard makes sense
16:52 nengard yeah
16:52 jcamins nengard: I was checking each bug to confirm that it was really pushed.
16:52 nengard k
16:51 wizzyrea oleonard++
16:51 * oleonard will have to work to make more work for QA
16:51 jcamins nengard: not that I know of. I just did branch -D (all the branches I wanted to delete)
16:51 wizzyrea it' bc you're awesome.
16:51 oleonard I was delighted to find today that almost all of my patch-sent git branches are either signed off or passed-QA
16:51 nengard jcamins is there a way to batch delete branches?
16:50 wizzyrea is great :)
16:50 wizzyrea ya
16:50 jcamins It really highlights how many features and bug fixes get into Koha.
16:50 wizzyrea :D
16:50 jcamins I was delighted to find that I could delete about fifty branches because they'd been pushed.
16:49 jcamins Speaking of branches, I pruned my git branches yesterday.
16:37 wizzyrea i had to go back and verify that I was using the right branch - it wastes my time
16:37 * jcamins too
16:37 * kf agrees
16:37 wizzyrea just sayin.
16:36 wizzyrea it's quite confusing to have a master number at 3.06.03.01
16:36 wizzyrea sooo, version numbering
16:32 maximep cool
16:30 kf maximep: koha has a blind developer too :) |Lupin|
16:29 kf we have reports that it works quite ok with lynx
16:29 kf :)
16:29 maximep and of course make it work for screen readers
16:29 maximep stuff like that
16:28 maximep that means everything from color contrast, make it work at 200% font size, make it keyboard accessible
16:28 maximep yes
16:28 wizzyrea so, motor disabilities, auditory disabilities, and visual disabilities?
16:27 maximep wizzyrea: pretty much all disabilities
16:24 kf has someone sql scripts moving the old orders to the new budgets/funds?
16:24 kf end of year acq question
16:24 kf ok
16:22 jcamins The edition supposedly had 2,000 copies, but apparently only one is known to have survived, and the author and translator are remarkably poorly-known.
16:21 kf it's a print with only 1 book?
16:21 kf oh
16:19 jcamins I can find no record of the book, the author, the translator, the original Russian edition, or *anything else*.
16:19 kf hm?
16:19 jcamins What a weird book this is.
16:19 * jcamins gazes with perplexity.
16:19 kf custom field or something like that
16:19 kf yep
16:19 wizzyrea I think patch status is a special conditional field for us or something
16:18 wizzyrea yea
16:18 kf but it's quite limited
16:18 kf wizzyrea: I think you can do some things with git bz edit
16:18 wizzyrea http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgNgAiGQ_IM
16:17 jcamins *Nope
16:17 jcamins ope.
16:17 wizzyrea have you never seen real genius?
16:16 jcamins Pickles?
16:16 wizzyrea if only you could change the patch status there too, it would be like, angels singing and throwing little pickles
16:15 kf but it works very well
16:15 wizzyrea 20 seconds I think it is
16:15 kf or it will time out
16:15 wizzyrea for all the patches you want to obsolete
16:15 kf you only have to be a bit fast
16:15 kf yep
16:15 wizzyrea uncomment Obsoletes
16:15 kf uncomment the attachement line
16:15 kf then
16:15 kf git bz attach -e <bugnumber> HEAD
16:15 kf but it's doable
16:15 wizzyrea I don't even care that you have to be fast
16:15 kf you have to be a bit fast
16:15 kf hehe
16:15 tcohen THAT would be heaven
16:15 wizzyrea ^^ this has changed my life
16:15 tcohen nope
16:15 kf tcohen: have you seen that you can obsolte patches in one step with attaching a new?
16:14 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6000] Performance enhancements for C4::Context and C4::Languages <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6000>
16:14 * wizzyrea is just curious
16:14 wizzyrea maximep: what kind of disabilities are you trying to accommodate for?
16:14 kf maximep: I don't think it's weird - I think it's awesome :)
16:14 * tcohen only needs learning how to change bug dependencies
16:14 wizzyrea is binary attachments
16:14 wizzyrea the only thing I've found that it doesn't work well for
16:14 wizzyrea oh my it is SO great.
16:13 jcamins oleonard: it's wonderful!
16:13 * oleonard still hesitates to use git-bz attach, not sure why
16:13 kf tcohen++
16:13 kf tcohen+
16:12 tcohen wizzyrea: this is heaven
16:12 wizzyrea there are few things that make life as much better as git-bz
16:12 wizzyrea tcohen++ don't you adore it
16:12 * tcohen has made his first use of git-bz attach :-D
16:04 reiveune bye
16:03 wizzyrea right but you've gotta pick the defaults :)
16:03 sekjal any numbers should be syspref (or config file) controllable, instead of hardcoded
16:03 wizzyrea a bot would easily surpass that, a human might have trouble.
16:03 wizzyrea 10 lists in 15 minutes?
16:02 wizzyrea I think logged out users should be able to send, but they should be limited somehow, is what I'm getting at.
16:01 wizzyrea (logged in users can send as many as they want)
16:00 wizzyrea (for logged out users)
16:00 wizzyrea and disallows them for z duration
16:00 wizzyrea is something that detects more than x number of list sends in y timeframe
16:00 oleonard That is the assertion made in the original bug report
15:59 wizzyrea probably what we need
15:59 wizzyrea (that would be my main concern)
15:59 wizzyrea oleonard: can the facility be used to spam people?
15:58 maximep kf: but wait, do you really know a blind library staff member ? That seems so weird to me for some reason :S
15:57 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3651 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED , Require patron login to send shelves and baskets
15:57 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=4274 minor, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, NEW , Cart now requires login before emailing contents
15:57 oleonard the discussion of Bug 4274 versus Bug 3651 would be improved by some concrete descriptions of the security implications
15:56 kf team work :)
15:56 jcamins Thanks. :)
15:55 kf I will try to do so tonight
15:55 jcamins kf: could you address marcelr's latest comment?
15:54 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=4255 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, NEW , Add item type to facet list
15:54 sekjal getting the first patch committed will open the door to bug 4255
15:53 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3216 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, frederic, NEW , UNIMARC author facets
15:53 sekjal anyone in a UNIMARC library able to test bug 3216?
15:49 wizzyrea maximep++ it's a good place to do work on koha
15:48 kf maximep: it's a start :)
15:46 wizzyrea woot maximep that's great :)
15:46 kf maximep: that's good news!
15:46 jcamins wizzyrea: cataloging.
15:45 maximep but it will probably be opac only
15:45 jcamins Bad news: there's no language code for Bukharan.
15:45 maximep kf: we have an accessibility expert working here and it will soon become one of our priorities
15:45 wizzyrea what in heavens name are you working on
15:44 jcamins Good news! This is in Bukharan!
15:44 huginn wizzyrea: The operation succeeded. Quote #175 added.
15:44 wizzyrea @quote add *oleonard is waiting for a good scientist -> hulk patron category transition script
15:44 * wizzyrea laughs
15:43 * oleonard is waiting for a good scientist -> hulk patron category transition script
15:43 wizzyrea I didn't name it :P
15:43 wizzyrea juvenile 2 adult, technically
15:43 wizzyrea kid -> adult patron category transitions
15:43 slef remind me what j2a is
15:42 wizzyrea you can't tell me people aren't clamoring for that.
15:42 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7157 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, wizzyrea, ASSIGNED , Improve the j2a.pl cronjob
15:42 * wizzyrea also pokes regarding bug 7157
15:41 jcamins Bother. This isn't in Uzbek.
15:40 * jcamins pokes back.
15:40 wizzyrea it's teensy
15:40 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7388 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, wizzyrea, ASSIGNED , rounded corners for side menus in staff client
15:40 jcamins bug 7388
15:40 * wizzyrea pokes anyone for a sign off on 7388 patch 1
15:39 wizzyrea )
15:39 wizzyrea (though that particular problem isn't a huge one for day-to-day_
15:38 wizzyrea those menus are a problem for selenium testing too, iirc
15:37 kf I got a report that the pull down menus are a problem, like edit on staff detail
15:36 kf or we have a new library... where this will be important
15:36 kf because I have a library with a blind staff member... and I am interested to know about known problems
15:36 oleonard maximep: In what way?
15:36 wizzyrea maybe we should help them out (if that's even possible)
15:36 kf maximep: :( are you working with a cutomer where this is a problem?
15:36 wizzyrea or - what's keeping it alpha?
15:36 oleonard kf: Maybe so
15:36 nengard there is a bug for this: when you click the invoice number on the acq search results it always says 'no items received' even though you have already received items
15:36 kf oleonard: perhaps we should give up on that? :(
15:35 maximep I wish jqueryui would care more about accessibility ;/
15:35 oleonard STILL waiting for the jQueryUI menu widget to come out of alpha.
15:34 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5481 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED , Replace YUI JS libraries with Jquery UI
15:34 oleonard Bug 5481
15:34 matts that could be nice...
15:33 * oleonard is
15:33 jcamins maximep: I think oleonard is working on a way to change it over to jQuery but it isn't done yet.
15:33 matts I don't exactly remember where, right now... But it was there :)
15:33 maximep ah ok, didn't know what it used
15:33 matts there already was yui autocompletion in koha
15:31 maximep curious about why using yui instead of jquery ?
15:30 matts hopefully the testing part will be smooth
15:30 matts thanx jcamins :)
15:30 jcamins But matts deserved some karma up front, too.
15:30 * jcamins will test it and sign off when he can.
15:29 magnuse sounds really useful!
15:29 nengard I love it!
15:29 matts Nice :)
15:29 matts ^^
15:29 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7400 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Add auto-completion on auth_finder
15:29 jcamins matts++ # bug 7400 *ROCKS*!!!!!!!!
15:29 magnuse matts, i think?
15:28 jcamins What is Matthias Meusburger's nick?
15:25 jcamins kf: well, I tried to clarify.
15:25 nengard facebook friends help me pick: http://www.facebook.com/nengard/posts/246280375440935
15:24 jcamins paul_p: thanks.
15:18 libsysguy cronjob for sure
15:18 magnuse or a cronjob?
15:17 wizzyrea a report would do
15:17 magnuse integrated with the police's api, of course
15:17 libsysguy ^^
15:16 magnuse maybe koha should have a "send the police to this patron" button?
15:16 wizzyrea heh
15:16 magnuse http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/01/02/charlton-library-sends-police-to-collect-overdue-books-from-5-year-old/
15:00 libsysguy kf I know :p
15:00 libsysguy hehe nengard
14:59 kf libsysguy: that wasnot what I meant!
14:58 nengard she's locking herself up so she can focus :)
14:58 nengard i'm not locking her up!!
14:58 libsysguy and i am just dense
14:58 libsysguy you probably did
14:58 kf like really really sure I told you sometime... heh
14:58 libsysguy and nengard why do you have to lock up druthb
14:58 libsysguy hehe its cool
14:58 kf I was quite sure you did know
14:58 kf I am sorry
14:58 libsysguy i was all like 0_0
14:57 libsysguy yeah seriously kf
14:46 wizzyrea alright, bbiab
14:40 kf libsysguy: seriously, you didn't know?
14:38 kf libsysguy: I thought I told you that
14:37 sekjal morning, wizzyrea
14:35 * wizzyrea waves
14:32 nengard libsysguy we keep druthb super busy :)
14:29 libsysguy morning sekjal
14:28 libsysguy had two realizations today...cait and kf are the same person and I haven't seen druthb in forever
14:28 sekjal morning, libsysguy
14:28 libsysguy morning #Koha
14:10 mtj Brooke: i was asleep... but now im up and perky
14:09 * slef shrugs
14:09 slef I'm not. I was just quietly deprecating the lesser-used one.
14:09 Brooke no reason to get all bent out of shape.
14:08 Brooke so
14:08 Brooke there are instances of both in documentation
14:08 slef also I think others were using KohaCon12 before me
14:07 Brooke if you're going to harp on consistency, it used to just be kohacon :P
14:07 slef consistency with kohacon10 is better than futureproofing IMO
14:07 Brooke amazed you're still up mtj
14:07 Waylon heres hoping we'll be here in 100 years.
14:06 slef Brooke: then it can add 2100 one year ;-)
14:06 mtj sorry i missed the meeting all, will have a read of the logs now....
14:06 Brooke tell me if you feel that way in a hundred years :P
14:06 slef I feel it's a mistake.
14:05 Brooke cross references make for cross readers.
14:05 Brooke it's an alternate title
14:05 oleonard Can wahanui do "see also?"
14:05 slef kohacon2012 is a typo for kohacon12
14:05 Brooke information 2 places > information 1 place.
14:05 Waylon Kohacon2012?
14:04 Brooke now it's dumb again.
14:04 Brooke kohacon2012?
14:04 Brooke kohacon2012
14:04 mtj 3am here :p
14:04 * mtj waves from nz :)
14:02 wahanui KohaCon12 is http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:KohaCon12 or Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
14:02 slef KohaCon12?
14:01 wahanui okay, slef.
14:01 slef wahanui: KohaCon12 is also Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
14:01 wahanui slef: I forgot kohacon2012
14:01 slef wahanui: forget KohaCon2012
14:01 oleonard slef: Wasn't me! :P
14:00 slef oleonard: that's not its name :-/
14:00 kf needing nothing
14:00 wahanui KohaCon2012 is Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
14:00 oleonard KohaCon2012?
14:00 nengard whatcha need?
14:00 wahanui hello, nengard
14:00 nengard hi
14:00 wahanui KohaCon12 is, like, http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:KohaCon12
14:00 slef KohaCon12?
13:59 kf hm nengard
13:59 kf engard: still around? :)
13:58 * oleonard is sorry he wasn't there to vote against sekjal changing jobs
13:58 * oleonard is finishing reading the meeting log
13:58 kf hi oleonard :)
13:58 oleonard Correct?
13:55 tcohen oops
13:49 kf tcohen: rangi is probably asleep almost 3 am in nz
13:48 Brooke I'm afraid my soul is beyond redemption, Sir.
13:47 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6193 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, tomascohen, ASSIGNED , Use memcached cache koha-conf.xml configuration variables
13:47 Brooke kf++
13:47 tcohen any good soul around? to signoff on bug 6193 so I can safely work on top of that?
13:44 kf jcamins++ thx for commenting
13:44 tcohen ?
13:44 tcohen is it better to flush_all (O(1)) or to just delete the key
13:43 tcohen rangi: if one was to invalidate something in memcached (something big as a preferences hash)
13:37 paul_p jcamins_away, look at dev/solr
13:37 paul_p jcamins_away, i'm here !
13:32 * jcamins has to get ready to head into the city. On-site today.
13:32 jcamins paul_p: if you happen to see this message, which branch should I look at for the latest solr code?
13:29 jcamins paul_p: around?
13:29 thd jcamins: My concern about Amazon is many instances of behaving in a manner hostile to the interests of their customers mostly outside the scope of EC2.
13:26 Waylon right.. so its all text editing or global sets.
13:26 thd jcamins: I am merely scared every time I read an Amazon terms of service agreement.
13:25 Waylon ... s/circle/replication
13:25 jcamins Waylon: not to my knowledge.
13:25 Waylon is there a way to automatically increase the number of servers inside a circular mysql circle?
13:25 jcamins thd: I'm satisfied with my current arrangement.
13:24 jcamins Waylon: don't use it. It performs poorly.
13:24 thd jcamins: I also do not have my own data centre, however, I have reasonable virtual hosting without the degree of quick scalability provided by EC2.
13:23 Waylon Amazon Relational Database Service .. means a db server outside of the EC2 instances?
13:22 jcamins If I had a data center, I'd do that too.
13:21 Waylon then VM's within that.
13:21 * Waylon 's work uses two bare metal servers inside softlayer.
13:20 thd jcamins: Price advantage for EC2 is highly use case dependent.
13:20 jcamins (see exhibit A, some of us don't have our own data centers)
13:20 jcamins That are as affordable as Amazon's?
13:19 jcamins thd: yes, but does Xen come with servers?
13:19 thd jcamins: One difference is that Xen is a portable free software solution, which Amazon is not.
13:17 jcamins And between EC-2 and Rackspace, EC-2 works a lot better.
13:16 jcamins Waylon: don't forget that we don't all have data centers.
13:16 jcamins :P
13:16 jcamins Waylon: it probably isn't, but I am using EC-2.
13:16 Waylon how is this different from Xen XCP?
13:15 jcamins Waylon: yeah, I can add more clients/servers easily.
13:15 Waylon jcamins, scale up?
13:15 jcamins Is that the one you meant?
13:14 kf :(
13:14 kf but I don't remember the reasoning
13:14 kf I think I did it the way I did after consulting with you
13:14 tcohen anyone from biblibre available?
13:14 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5369 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, katrin.fischer, ASSIGNED , se queries with paranthesis fail
13:14 jcamins bug 5369
13:14 kf jcamins: can I perhaps bribe you into looking at 5369?
13:14 jcamins Waylon: it's easier to scale up/down.
13:13 jcamins thd: of course.
13:13 Waylon why run this setup in EC2?
13:13 thd jcamins: I hope that you also do proper cold backups and not merely replication.
13:12 Waylon failsafe.
13:12 Waylon hot meaning running.
13:12 Waylon sorry
13:12 Waylon ooooo
13:12 Waylon hot backup? How come you don't use innodb and singletransaction dump instead?
13:11 jcamins thd: hot backup.
13:11 jcamins Waylon: it doesn't modify the database.
13:11 Waylon hmm? so how does a slave instance modify the database?
13:11 thd jcamins: What is the purpose of the read only slave?
13:11 jcamins Waylon: I work with small, highly-specialized collections.
13:10 jcamins No, one read-write master, one read-only slave.
13:10 Waylon so, youve only had two nodes, in circular replication?
13:10 jcamins Waylon: I don't believe LLEK does anything more complex, either.
13:09 jcamins Waylon: oh, I haven't been running anything large enough to have more than a master/slave setup with MySQL.
13:09 wahanui rumour has it KohaCon2012 is Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
13:09 Brooke KohaCon2012?
13:09 wahanui OK, Brooke.
13:09 Brooke wahanui: KohaCon2012 is Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
13:09 Brooke useless.
13:08 wahanui brooke: i don't know
13:08 Brooke wahanui: KohaCon2012?
13:08 nengard thanks Brooke
13:08 tcohen hi #koha
13:08 Waylon mysql replication relies on a max number of nodes due to insert interval and offset. how does that work with EC2?
13:07 Brooke wahanui is so much more useless than zoia.
13:07 Brooke info Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
13:07 Brooke KohaCon2012?
13:07 * thd checks some logs
13:07 nengard good! what are they?
13:06 thd nengard: Yes we have dates.
13:06 thd jcamins: The important result from the meeting is to encourage more discussion on the mailing list and at all hours on IRC to allow meetings to be run more quickly with as many participants as we have now.
13:06 jcamins thd: Thanks.
13:05 thd jcamins: Discussion on the mailing list.
13:05 jcamins thd: ah. Thanks.
13:05 jcamins Waylon: the same way they would with any other divided system.
13:05 thd jcamins: The consensus was that there is disagreement over the approach taken in an old patch for abstraction and BibLibre are preparing a proof of concept.
13:04 Waylon hwo does the seperate instances communicate?
13:04 * jcamins runs Koha on EC2.
13:04 Waylon how?
13:04 jcamins Waylon: Koha works great on EC2.
13:04 Waylon well.. we know that koha can work on EC2's... so sayith liblime... but how that works.. no idea.
13:04 jcamins Or are we going to just talk about it for another five years and pollute C4 further?
13:03 nengard Do we have a date for kohacon12 yet?
13:03 jcamins thd: are we changing to the Koha namespace?
13:03 * Waylon nods.
13:03 jcamins (P.S. sorry about missing the meeting... I completely forgot, thanks to buying an apartment:)
13:03 thd jcamins: What sort of consensus would you like?
13:03 thd Waylon: In my extreme overwork on non-Koha stuff I have neglected code which I have been given to use Amazon as part of an automation in cataloguing.
13:02 * jcamins skimmed the minutes, and didn't see any consensus.
13:02 jcamins Was there any conclusion about the Koha namespace?
13:00 thd Waylon: Koha can be configured to use Amazon for cover images and reviews in the display of bibliographic records.
12:59 thd Waylon: The overall use may favour AWS for some price or convenience factor.
12:58 Waylon there isn't any info on amazon, on the koha wiki
12:58 nengard and all!
12:57 nengard and al
12:57 thd Waylon: Your sysadmin may have more things in mind than merely library automation systems.
12:57 nengard hiya Brooke
12:57 nengard :(
12:57 huginn nengard: The current temperature in Highland Park, Levittown, Pennsylvania is -9.9�C (7:53 AM EST on January 04, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 53%. Dew Point: -18.0�C. Windchill: -15.0�C. Pressure: 30.39 in 1029.0 hPa (Rising).
12:57 nengard @wunder 19030
12:57 nengard OMG it's freezying here!!!
12:56 Waylon i guess the first step to understanding all this, is understanding what the sysadmin actually means.
12:55 thd s/when/when to use/
12:55 thd Waylon: The issue about when AWS is occasionally presented on various web forums with real numbers for various scenarios in which AWS often loses.
12:52 thd s/Amazon/AWS/
12:51 thd Waylon: My understanding is that the pricing of Amazon only works favourably in comparison to simpler and less dynamically changeable alternatives when the use of the service has large unpredictable variable use patterns.
12:51 Brooke hey nicole :)
12:48 thd Waylon: The example of Wikileaks brief use of Amazon Web Services should be instructive even if that may be a somewhat special case.
12:47 * Waylon nods. "Would of thought the two vm's on two bare metal boxes would of been sufficient. but the sysadmin sounds like hes tooling up for massive expansion.
12:47 thd Waylon: Using anything is fine as long as you can change to something else relatively easily if necessary.
12:46 thd Waylon: However, I have looked for free software systems offering the same level of service as Amazon Web Services and not found a comparable level of flexibility and control for significant dynamically changing use.
12:45 Waylon modifying koha to work with amazon instances, then suddenly, they cannot be run on them... would be difficult to retool back to normal OS, your saying?
12:44 thd Waylon: If you are wholly dependent upon one company for something critical, you are merely waiting for a big problem if there is a sudden change of policy, service, or price from that company.
12:42 thd Waylon: Relying exclusively upon non-free software or non-free data sources is a hazard which leaves a vulnerability to any service discontinuity.
12:40 Waylon please continue.
12:40 thd Waylon: The problem to which I am referring is mostly a problem for obtaining bibliographic data from Amazon but what Amazon has most recently named Amazon Web Services should be regarded with suspicion.
12:38 Waylon we are a digital library archive, a db of 3 gb.. and storage requirements of something like 100 gb or more for pdf files.
12:37 thd Amazon has a very bad habit of re-interpreting or changing there terms of use for many of there services which may disallow what had been common use in the past.
12:37 ColinC And look at their technical stuff I found I knew less after I read it
12:37 Waylon please explain, thd.
12:36 thd Amazon should be regarded with extreme mistrust for non-technical reasons.
12:35 slef but I could be wrong. I have strange feelings towards Amazon so I don't think I'm using Koha there at all.
12:34 slef and I doubt Koha is written to take advantage of all Amazon's resilience features
12:34 Waylon cause right now, we have two replicaiton paths. one going from office to servers.. the other, going between the servers., not including the office.
12:34 slef and possibly resilience but Amazon don't have an unblemished record on that
12:33 slef benefits are scalability AIUI
12:33 Waylon sounds like a headache..
12:33 slef (it was presented at kohacon10 hackfest I know)
12:33 slef Waylon: nobody knows but search wiki or kohacon10 papers for how to get Koha running on it.
12:32 slef and I just updated that with sign-up lists for those who want to express interest pre-registration
12:32 Waylon okay. new system administrator for mandumah.com... has proposed Amazon cloud computing. How does it work?
12:32 wahanui OK, slef.
12:32 slef wahanui: KohaCon12 is http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:KohaCon12
12:31 wahanui i haven't a clue, slef
12:31 slef wahanui: KohaCon12?
12:31 slef go for it
12:29 Waylon okay.. meeting done? i can ask a completely irrelevant question?
12:28 huginn Log: http://librarypolice.com/koha-meetings/2012/koha.2012-01-04-10.00.log.html
12:28 huginn Minutes (text): http://librarypolice.com/koha-meetings/2012/koha.2012-01-04-10.00.txt
12:28 huginn Minutes: http://librarypolice.com/koha-meetings/2012/koha.2012-01-04-10.00.html
12:28 huginn Meeting ended Wed Jan 4 12:28:28 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:28 Brooke #endmeeting
12:28 Brooke #info next meeting is 8 Feb 0200 UTC
12:27 sekjal +!
12:26 thd +1
12:26 thd =1
12:26 paul_p +1
12:25 ColinC +1
12:25 jwagner +1
12:25 slef +1
12:24 Brooke 8 February 2 UTC
12:24 Brooke so vote
12:24 Brooke and if it's not on the agenda, stick it there.
12:24 Brooke but I'm gonna say think about what you want to say given the agenda before hand
12:24 Brooke not nec
12:23 slef 1 hour meeting aim?
12:23 Brooke paul: guess what time it is in NZ right now :P
12:23 Brooke 10 > 2 > 18 is the cycle.
12:23 paul_p 3AM for me... wonderfull meeting time ;-)
12:22 Brooke 2 utc yes
12:22 paul_p OK for me
12:22 slef Is it 0200 UTC?
12:22 ColinC either ok
12:22 asaurat no objection
12:22 thd +1 8th Feb.
12:22 thd +1
12:22 Brooke any heavy objections to Feb 8?
12:21 * slef opens the bidding
12:21 Brooke fine with me
12:21 slef 8 Feb?
12:21 Brooke Feb 1 or Feb 8?
12:20 Brooke #topic Time and Date of next meeting
12:20 Brooke anyway
12:20 Brooke meh
12:20 thd We could time an are we taking too long here prompt with the possibility that the answer is no.
12:20 slef I think that social pressure is insufficient here. You can't see people fidget on IRC.
12:19 slef thd: sure. Get a room/workgroup/submeeting is also a valid request, usually combined with a vote or budge.
12:19 thd I think that social pressure such as are we taking too long here is a better solution than strict timing.
12:18 paul_p agreed (and TZ things improve this need)
12:18 thd I think that things should take as long as they take but encouragement should be given to having good discussions outside the monthly meeting in our various fora.
12:18 slef traditionally (hah, that old trick!), anyone in a meeting can call for the vote to be held or to move on to the next item... but times on the agenda reduces the surprise for people who don't know such things.
12:17 Brooke I'll keep thinking on things
12:17 paul_p ++
12:17 Brooke I tend to impose a time limit if I think summat is gonna be controversial AND beaten to death..
12:17 paul_p i'm for it !
12:17 Brooke chairing is delightfully dynamic
12:17 Brooke it depends
12:16 slef If the chair doesn't mind having permission to break our legs^Wdiscussions to keep to time?
12:16 paul_p (clrh always uses timebox !)
12:16 paul_p timed++
12:16 slef I would suggest timed agenda items again.
12:15 Brooke [07:12am] Brooke: where smallish things make sense for a ballot.
12:15 Brooke [07:12am] Brooke: are always going to lend themselves to IRC
12:15 Brooke [07:12am] Brooke: it seems to me that things that are overarching and affect the spirit of the project
12:15 Brooke [07:12am] Brooke: or be put into a survey and sent to the list
12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: and then bring something that can have a yes or no vote to the meeting
12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: it's possible if we do more work in small groups or hash things out over the list or irc much better
12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: to like 2 and a half.
12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: I'm guessing folks would prefer an hour a meeting
12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: and we also need to streamline how topics are mentioned
12:15 Brooke [07:10am] Brooke: we need to figure out what the ultimate forum is
12:15 Brooke [07:10am] Brooke: so
12:15 Brooke [07:10am] Brooke: however, we've done things like KohaCon outside the meeting
12:15 Brooke [07:10am] Brooke: the meetings traditionally were the place to vote
12:15 Brooke Brooke: yeah I need to really crystalise what I have in mind for things
12:15 Brooke hang on lemme post some stuff I said in whisper to main
12:15 thd sekjal++
12:15 paul_p so i'm OK with this idea
12:15 sekjal thankfully, I'm not alone on the QA team this term, so I won't act as a bottleneck for everything
12:14 kf sekjal++
12:14 Brooke UMass is a great place to work, so look forward to it :)
12:14 slef next item?
12:14 sekjal I think that, yes, I will be able to dedicate about that much personal time to the job
12:13 paul_p about the QAM role, my position is: if you can promize /think you'll be able to spend something like 8 hours a week on QA things, then go for it. Otherwise, we should ask for another volunteer
12:13 kf hm good luck...
12:12 kf good like sekjal
12:12 slef sekjal: sorry to hear that, yes please and good luck with the new work
12:12 sekjal thd: they're part of a 5 college consortium, so it will take a lot of effort to move them, but I will apply what pressure I can
12:12 paul_p sad news. (side effect: you'll miss the European hackfest)
12:12 thd s/working on/using/
12:11 jwagner sekjal, good luck with the new job!
12:11 thd sekjal: Is UMass considering working on Koha at any future point?
12:11 sekjal I intend to finish out my term as QAM, should the community approve
12:11 sekjal but, as UMass is not a Koha institution, Koha will no longer be my primary workday focus
12:10 sekjal I will continue to be part of the Koha community
12:10 sekjal at the end of this month, I'll be leaving ByWater Solutions to work at the library at the University of Massachusetts
12:09 Brooke and thanks slef.
12:09 Brooke go for it sekjal :)
12:09 slef actually not sure all replies were on-list. I'll find them and put them to a page.
12:09 Brooke just like if you volunteered to teach different stuff at the last KohaCon, we will prolly be conning you into volunteering :)
12:09 sekjal I've got an announcement that the Koha community may find relevant
12:08 slef #link http://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2011-December/031479.html
12:08 Brooke please contact kmkale
12:08 Brooke so if you're good at constructing a syllabus or other such things
12:08 Brooke we're attempting to get a proper distance education framework in place
12:08 Brooke I wanted to give a shout out for the Koha Academy project
12:08 Brooke #topic Miscellaneous
12:07 slef nothing new from me on KohaCon 2013. All replies were on-list.
12:06 slef did the "how to run tests" get updated? I'm elsewhere in the wiki
12:05 Brooke any new stuff on that?
12:05 Brooke once again the only thing I see there is KohaCon 2013
12:05 Brooke #topic Actions from December
12:05 thd paul_p: Ok, so we can continue to discuss the issue of applying tidied patches to the possibly untidied current release on the mailing list.
12:05 Brooke so
12:05 paul_p Brooke, agreed.
12:04 Brooke thought big day was timed with the 3.8 release, but we'll leave that to paul and later.
12:04 kf and big day still to be decided
12:04 kf ok for me
12:04 Brooke we didn't but I will pretend that we did :P
12:04 kf seems so
12:03 paul_p thd, I would say yes.
12:03 Brooke paul, you need to get your sabre or foil, and then we can settle this like men. :P
12:03 thd paul_p: So we just voted to only tidy new files until big tidy day?
12:03 sekjal if anyone was going to be pulling iron, I thought it would be one of the Yanks
12:03 kf paul_p: now you scareme
12:03 paul_p ;-)
12:02 thd paul_p: yes no one of course :)
12:02 * paul_p get his gun...
12:02 paul_p or i'll kick him !
12:02 ColinC thd: please no
12:02 paul_p thd, no, NOONE want to raise the issue.
12:02 Brooke thd it was an example of an actionable item.
12:02 Brooke with no actual progress
12:02 thd Brooke: 4 spaces or 8 is resolved unless someone really wants to raise the issue again.
12:02 paul_p thd, I don't see how we can practically use a small bit by small bit.
12:02 Brooke and we have another glorious 2 hour meeting.
12:02 Brooke we have 20 people talking about 20 different pet to dos
12:01 Brooke else
12:01 Brooke and THEN bring that to the meeting
12:01 Brooke as in 4 spaces or 8
12:01 Brooke even if it's a little yes or no
12:01 Brooke until you have something that you can vote a simple yes or no to
12:01 Brooke keep hashing it out over devel
12:01 thd paul_p: Did we just vote never to use tidy for old files until big tidy day or when otherwise modifying a file and also a big tidy day?
12:01 Brooke I would say
12:01 paul_p Brooke, maybe we should go forward ? i'm not sure we will find a consensus. This is a trolling topic...
12:00 thd Brooke: The issue had been raised on koha-devel and then forgotten over the course of KohaCon.
12:00 Brooke there's no reason to hash minutia at a meeting v over the listserv.
12:00 mbalmer I have to leave now, next meeting, grr, so cul. and whatever you still vote here: I am all for it! ttyl!
12:00 Brooke jwagner: this is relevant in general, not in minutia.
11:59 thd sekjal++ :)
11:59 thd Brooke: It was on the koha-devel list, however, we have gone rather quickly here.
11:59 sekjal Brooke: heated discussions are more fun in realtime?
11:59 jwagner Because meetings are the place where we're supposed to discuss things of concern to the project?
11:59 ColinC kf: but the patches in the in queue will be made against old formatted code
11:59 kf so for now
11:59 kf ok
11:58 Brooke why is this in meeting and not on devel?
11:58 jwagner paul_p, +1
11:58 kf thd: not sure - but I think we should find out before doing something drastic
11:58 mbalmer paul_p, sane idea.
11:58 thd kf: Would applying tidy to the old release solve the problem for patching old versions?
11:58 mbalmer so maybe we should revert that vote? and give us a bit more time?
11:58 asaurat same for me, never used it
11:58 paul_p OK, let's say = i send a mail to koha-devel to say "we propose the option of a big perltidy day, let's argue the cons of this idea if there are"
11:58 kf same here
11:57 sekjal my understanding of perltidy is insufficient for me to make an informed choice
11:57 kf sekjal: I think it does more, breaking lines differently
11:57 thd sekjal++
11:57 thd sekjal: Brooke was anxious to vote on something rather than rediscuss the old topic :)
11:56 sekjal would the tidy be backported to 3.6.x?
11:56 kf that have not been brought up here
11:56 kf to see all pro and cons
11:56 kf but perhaps we need to think more about it
11:56 kf yes
11:56 Brooke thd we voted to have a big perltidy day on 3.8 release
11:56 sekjal git diff and git blame, for one
11:56 sekjal then we're not going to be able to use a lot of our git tools effectively anymore
11:56 sekjal if perltidy is going to give us more than just whitespace changes on single lines
11:56 paul_p yes, but many of us are hungry ;-)
11:56 kf perhaps something to think about for the global change: you can't compare files between different versions then and patches will not apply backwards
11:55 thd sekjal: I agree that the vote was a little hasty
11:55 mbalmer paul_p, same TZ here, same problem, too ;)
11:55 sekjal incremental vs. all-at-once
11:55 sekjal we need to clearly lay out the pros and cons for this change
11:54 thd paul_p: Did we just vote never to use tidy for old files until big tidy day or when otherwise modifying a file and also a big tidy day?
11:54 slef 0
11:54 paul_p 1PM here, my stomash is asking for some food ;-)
11:54 ColinC 0 RM's prerogative tho
11:54 jwagner 0
11:54 kf 0
11:54 sekjal 0
11:53 julian_m +1
11:53 Brooke NO EQUALS! RAWR
11:53 Waylon +1
11:53 Joubu +1
11:53 Joubu =1
11:53 thd +1
11:53 clrh +1
11:53 Brooke #info Voting on perltidy
11:53 mbalmer +1
11:53 paul_p +1 (already said ;-) )
11:52 Brooke vote: Big perltidyday on 3.8 release
11:52 thd Brooke: Did we just vote never to use tidy for old files until tidy day or when modifying otherwise and a big tidy day?
11:52 mbalmer it's only WS at line ends, *NOT* perltidy or so. text structure gets not changed.
11:52 sekjal ah
11:52 paul_p sekjal, yep, but perltidy is also a matter of where to put {} and not only whitepsaces
11:52 mbalmer sekjal, ok, that settles it, thanks.
11:52 sekjal so if it's just whitespace, we're fine
11:52 kf I think in that case perhaps have a follow up doing the perltidy for that part?
11:52 sekjal git blame and git diff have "ignore whitespace" flags
11:52 paul_p Brooke, big perltidy day on 3.8 release
11:52 mbalmer I am not only working on Koha, and otherwise whitespace at line endings is very much frowned upon
11:51 thd Brooke: We need to clarify the issue.
11:51 Brooke come up with an alternative and propose it, Paul.
11:51 paul_p kf, if you add a loop outside of existing code, you'll get a foreach that is perltidied & indented, and inside the loop, you may have a different indentation. unreadable quickly !
11:51 mbalmer kf, for sure not.
11:51 Brooke so it looks like little by little now fails.
11:51 kf mbalmer: deactivate it
11:51 mbalmer text editor.
11:51 thd mbalmer: What do you mean by 'editor'? Who or what is the 'editor'?
11:51 mbalmer what can you do if your editor does clean up whitespace when saving the file?
11:51 paul_p kf, i'm against this idea too ;-)
11:51 kf because for now that will not hurt and we can still do a global day later with a release if that's agreed on
11:50 kf perhaps I am misunderstood... I wanted to say write new things using perltidy, fix old when you work on that code, but not outside of the scope of your bug - like fixing the whole file?
11:50 matts -1 too
11:50 julian_m -1
11:50 Joubu -1
11:49 mbalmer err, so my editor question remains unanswered?
11:49 Brooke :P
11:49 Brooke finish actual voting
11:49 kf can't get more unreadable, only moving into one direction now instead of a lto of directions
11:49 clrh there is two little by little kf be carefull
11:49 thd My position for a big tidy day is not against using tidy when you modify a file as a separately labelled patch.
11:49 kf paul_p: I think for most things it will work quite ok - we already have it all mixed up
11:48 mbalmer paul_p++
11:48 slef git log --pretty=oneline -S'string to search for' # may help with seeing behind a perltidy
11:48 paul_p that will be unreadable quickly !
11:48 mbalmer what if the editor clears up whitespace?
11:48 ColinC kf++
11:48 paul_p kf, NO NO NO !
11:48 Brooke I agree with that kf
11:48 magnuse kf++
11:48 kf not the whole file, the lines you are working on
11:48 kf little by little for me means = fix things where you fix your bug
11:48 paul_p sekjal, that's also an option.
11:47 * sekjal drinks a cup now
11:47 sekjal seemed that way to my pre-coffee brain
11:47 thd -1 big perltidy day timed with release cycle if possible
11:47 sekjal maybe not any easier
11:47 mbalmer some of the better editors cut whitespace off the line endings, and that leads to whitespace patches when you edit a file.
11:47 sekjal paul_p: lets us differ the issue, focus on functionality for the next few months, then we can run scripts to do mass clean up after
11:47 kf +1 for little by littel - will not hurt anything now
11:47 magnuse +1 for bit by bit
11:47 clrh -1 (i'm for big perltidy day)
11:47 mbalmer there is one technical problem, however:
11:46 paul_p -1 (i'm for big perltidy day)
11:46 kf clrh: will give conflicts perhaps? patches in the list now changing same files and so on? not sure
11:46 ColinC +1
11:46 Brooke +1 for little by little.
11:46 Brooke so the proposal is we handle things as we code ensuring that they're in line with perl tidy and other suggestions with the coding guidelines
11:46 paul_p OK for voting Brooke !
11:46 clrh ok Brooke
11:46 Brooke instead of talking about voting
11:46 paul_p OK, i'll send a mail to koha-devel with this proposition.
11:46 clrh magnuse: rebase + perltidy does not seems really big ;)
11:46 Brooke we vote
11:46 Brooke fine
11:45 thd Brooke: Bit by bit had seemed to be the previous consensus but paul_p had raised problems with that approach on the mailing list.
11:45 magnuse Brooke: it's not minutia imho, it's a question of what patches to fail qa...
11:45 paul_p why is it easier ?
11:45 paul_p sekjal, ???
11:44 sekjal putting it off until the end of this release cycle would make coding 3.8 easier
11:44 Brooke I really bloody hate talking things over that are minutia twice.
11:44 Brooke 12:09:58 <thd> kf++
11:44 Brooke 12:09:57 <wizzyrea> (and publish it somewhere)
11:44 Brooke 12:09:51 <slef> mtj: git format-patch -o .. 'HEAD^'
11:44 Brooke 12:09:47 <ColinC> kf+
11:44 Brooke 12:09:43 <wizzyrea> kf++
11:44 clrh I agree paul_p
11:44 Brooke 12:09:37 <paul_p_> kf++
11:44 Brooke 12:09:26 <kf> I hve no strong opinion about the coding thing - make it consistent and choose one, change code not at once but bit by bit perhaps
11:44 slef mbalmer: I'm sure they'd welcome patches to git-blame.
11:44 paul_p the more I think of it the more I like the idea of a bit perltidy in 3.8 !
11:44 slef paul_p: yes, a perltidy Day would make things a bit easier (if git blame on master is uninformative, run git blame on pre-perltidy-day tag).
11:43 thd Brooke: Clarifying: we voted to use Perl standard for tidy but deferred how to approach the issue of when to tidy code which is not being modified otherwise.
11:43 mbalmer maybe git blame is to blame for not being able to go back further in the history of a file
11:43 mbalmer afaict.
11:43 mbalmer slef, I agree. But you would have to do that, then
11:42 slef mbalmer: reading all diffs for a file is not fun IMO.
11:42 mbalmer well at least I went through the pain of learning the language the last weeks, paul_p ;)
11:42 paul_p I like ColinC idea of a big perltidy for 3.8
11:42 slef mbalmer: how do you find the history of a line otherwise?
11:42 paul_p mbalmer is a troller !!!
11:41 kf if we do a global thing, we can check out the branch, but we should decide about it
11:41 paul_p ColinC++
11:41 mbalmer paul_p, hard to believe, because Perl code will never be nice ;) (scnr)
11:41 paul_p I agree for git blame is one tool !
11:41 magnuse +1
11:41 kf similar to the template toolkit switch
11:41 kf ColinC: that might be reasonable
11:41 sekjal git blame is handy, but it's just one tool in our debugging arsenal
11:41 paul_p mbalmer, everybody is for that ;-)
11:41 mbalmer consistent, even.
11:41 Brooke http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_Meeting,_5_October_2011
11:41 ColinC if there was to be a big tidy choose your moment i.e. as part of the 3.8 release
11:40 mbalmer I am all for clean, consisten code.
11:40 kf paul_p: didn't mean the whole file - not sure
11:40 thd Brooke: Tidy was resolved but not the issue about the rate of use.
11:40 paul_p s/is/will be/
11:40 thd Brooke: This issue was left unresolved two months ago.
11:40 kf Brooke: the problem is, that it's not clear now - so people don't know what to do, we should clarify
11:40 paul_p kf, you're right ! having a part tidied and a part not tidied is a nightmare very soon !
11:40 Brooke is there anything new here?
11:40 magnuse what's a block of code?
11:40 mbalmer is git blam so holy? I mean the history is still there...
11:40 Brooke do we have anything to discuss that we didn't already agree upon two months ago?
11:40 kf not sure that's practical
11:39 paul_p does it mean we would/should/could go for a big perltidy one day ?
11:39 kf perhaps we could say - tidy the whole code block in that case?
11:39 kf I think one suggestion was tidying the parts where your bug fix is
11:39 slef ok, does anyone remember if git blame can drill down into history, or shall I test now?
11:39 paul_p I think so.
11:39 sekjal we can easily skip over that patch in a git log, and look for the next functionality-based patch, when checking history
11:39 mbalmer paul_p, a now I see the issue.
11:38 sekjal and the commit message is "Tidying code" or the like
11:38 paul_p ColinC, how ?
11:38 ColinC paul_p in practice to compromise between the two
11:38 Brooke and old code would eventually phase itself out
11:38 kf mbalmer: only who last changed it
11:38 sekjal if we keep our tidy commits and our functionality commits distinct
11:38 paul_p mbalmer, right. but git blame will say the perltidy author is to blame for almost everything
11:38 kf mbalmer: it will not be clear who wrote the line
11:38 Brooke and I don't see a reason to deviate from new code meeting new standards
11:38 Brooke but that's not what was decided
11:38 paul_p is our goal to keep history clear (you're right slef) or have something more readable ?
11:38 mbalmer it's just an additional commit, right?
11:38 mbalmer I don't understand why do we loos the history?
11:37 slef mbalmer: maybe not lose history, but it can obscure it.
11:37 paul_p I don't see another option !
11:37 thd Brooke: It is not merely about having prettier code. Readability and consistency helps avoid bugs.
11:37 ColinC yes we do care because it becomes harder to see what introduced some behaviour
11:37 paul_p either decide to perltidy everything, and loose history, or keep history and stop complaining about tidy
11:37 mbalmer Brooke, nicer code is easier to maintain, and means less errors
11:37 jwagner Brooke, I think we definitely do care -- we frequently need to see when a particular change came in and who did it
11:37 mbalmer ColinC, why loose history? the tyding up becomes part of the history, or do I miss sth?
11:37 paul_p I think we must choose our poison !
11:36 Brooke do we care if the code is nicer?
11:36 paul_p but a perltidy will result in git blame being wrong.
11:36 magnuse there's also git diff to think about
11:36 ColinC you lose history if you tidy the file but it may be a good way to work on it just dont commit the whole tidied file
11:36 mbalmer paul_p, that is what I meant. one patch to tidy up, no function changes, a separate one for the actual fix
11:36 * kf reads back now
11:36 paul_p yep, in separate commits.
11:36 paul_p (otherwise, QAing is almost impossible, you get 1000 lines changed !)
11:35 mbalmer so these tidy ups get separate commits
11:35 paul_p mbalmer, not in the same patch as the fix iteself !
11:35 magnuse "-w Ignore whitespace when comparing the parent's version and the child's to find where the lines came from." cool!
11:35 mbalmer why not tidying a file before fixing a bug? aka fix bugs in previously tidyied files?
11:35 asaurat yep, of course
11:35 ColinC but use taste i.e. a line before or after may get tidied to make the indent obvious
11:34 thd paul_p: Do you remember that you had wanted to discuss when to tidy during KohaCon 2011 dev week?
11:34 clrh something is to dig about "git blame -w"
11:34 magnuse yup
11:34 paul_p the problem is git blame.
11:34 ColinC If you tidy more than is chamged it gets hardr to see what the change was in the history
11:34 magnuse so if a patch is tidying lines that were not otherwise changed, should it be failed qa?
11:33 paul_p thd, yep.
11:33 thd paul_p are you still here?
11:33 Brooke magnuse I think the old consensus was new stuff pretty darn tidy, old stuff we'd get to eventually.
11:33 thd magnuse: There was an unanswered question which paul_p posed about when to tidy?
11:33 magnuse if we fix some bug, should we perltidy just the one line we touched, a block, a whole function?
11:32 magnuse i think the question now was how much perltidy'ing should we be doing?
11:32 thd Brooke: right
11:32 Brooke and vote on em at some point
11:32 Brooke I think I have to do those up
11:32 Brooke this is failing my mental tests for does it belong in a meeting, btw
11:31 thd Rewriting changes bugs fixes and/or adds new ones.
11:31 ColinC bugs/behaviour
11:30 thd The test for refactoring is that the same bugs are implemented in a different manner.
11:30 mbalmer ok.
11:30 paul_p mbalmer, we already have decided to use 4 spaces.
11:30 asaurat must a patch correct only what the bug title implies, or should we add other enhancements when possi
11:30 mbalmer a bit like http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=style&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8.2-RELEASE&arch=default&format=html
11:30 magnuse we already decided on http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Perltidy
11:30 thd We should also be clear in commits between refactoring and rewriting where rewriting has altered functionality.
11:29 mbalmer s/of/if/
11:29 kf sorry, phone call
11:29 mbalmer I'd love of lines would not be longer than 80 characters and indents be tabs with 8 character width.
11:29 slef did the "how to run tests" get updated? I'm elsewhere in the wiki
11:29 Brooke if we keep skipping back to stuff, these meetings are gonna get even longer. #justsayin.
11:28 thd fixing Perl coding style.
11:28 Brooke #topic Coding Guidelines *again*
11:28 mbalmer coding guidelines topic still open?
11:28 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Coding_Guidelines
11:28 thd Brooke: We had in the past suggested being clear in commits about ...
11:28 magnuse i think maybe kf had things to say about coding guidelines too?
11:27 Brooke is it really, really pressing?
11:27 Brooke thd: do you have a specific link to summat for something I've already moved past?
11:27 Brooke any new stuff there?
11:27 Brooke the only stuff I see looks to be KohaCon 2013
11:27 thd Brooke: one injection about the hastily left issue of coding practise?
11:27 Brooke #topic Actions from Last Meeting
11:26 wahanui Friday is It's Friday, Friday Gotta get down on Friday
11:26 Brooke Friday?
11:25 magnuse nah, it's friday, in whatever timezone you happen to be in
11:25 Brooke http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/2012-01-06_Global_bug_squashing_day
11:25 Brooke but you can always cheat and pretend you live someplace else. :D
11:25 Brooke it's Friday, or possibly Saturday depending on where you are
11:25 mbalmer there's bugs?
11:24 Brooke hey there's one coming up
11:24 Brooke #topic GBSD
11:24 Brooke you guys aren't talkative so
11:24 mbalmer thd, I agree. I meant rather rewrite or adapt, btw
11:23 Brooke fool! Rangi never sleeps :P
11:23 thd Refactoring and rewriting are not the same. rangi has stated this many times but had given up reminding and may be asleep now.
11:22 mbalmer - if in doubt, ask.
11:22 mbalmer plus:
11:22 mbalmer that would be two guidelines.
11:21 mbalmer - Refactor existing SQL code to work on any database ;)
11:21 mbalmer - Try to avoid SQL code that works only on a particular database.
11:21 thd clrh: However, paul_p wrote about rewriting code which is an opportunity to avoid having features which function as poorly before rewriting as after.
11:21 magnuse Brooke: don't think so ;-)
11:21 Brooke #topic Coding Guidelines
11:20 Brooke did we secretly move on to Coding Guidelines while talking about C4?
11:20 clrh agreed Brooke :)
11:20 paul_p Brooke++
11:20 Brooke that and not everything need take place in a meeting
11:19 clrh thx
11:19 clrh o I didnt see it!
11:19 clrh thd: did you find the reference?
11:19 ColinC I would see most of the current big C4 modules as candidate for refactoring into the new name space and code slowly migrating to them
11:19 clrh magnuse: I think yes
11:19 thd clrh++ the proposed remedy I have at the end of that meta-bug is fixing the problem tiny piece by piece in an isolated manner so that nothing breaks.
11:19 magnuse this is starting to sound like the topic for a separate meeting?
11:19 clrh to give you asap some concrete things to talk about
11:19 mbalmer I will add my two modules, they can later be moved into Koha namespace, if it makes sense.
11:18 clrh s/how/our
11:18 clrh so we will continue how work
11:18 sekjal clrh: much more practical that way
11:18 kf clrh: agreed
11:18 magnuse clrh: agreed
11:18 mbalmer clrh++
11:18 clrh The idea is not to write things from scratch but having best practice to refactor code little by little in a new workspace I think
11:18 mbalmer I think using SQL is not a mistake.
11:17 ColinC there was some discussion of using a standard orm module earlier
11:17 huginn 04Bug 3092: normal, P1 - high, ---, frederic, NEW , Data values storage and use 100 bug meta-bug
11:17 thd clrh: http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3092
11:16 sekjal like primary keys for reserves, etc
11:16 sekjal writing/migrating the Data Access layer should involve, I think, looking at some of the data structures we currently have in our DB, and what we can do to change/improve them
11:16 mbalmer I suggest a SQL module which produces "optimal" SQL for a specific DB for operations that can not be expressed in standard SQL. Should that be in Koha or outside? I am for outside.
11:16 thd clrh: checking ...
11:16 huginn 04Bug 7248: enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Caching for services
11:16 Brooke http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7248
11:15 clrh thd what number please?
11:15 kf people can make suggestions looking at this code - signingoff/qaing it
11:15 kf I think we could take existing work as a start
11:15 Waylon hmm... so isolating db specific code, so one can develop db access for other databases without too much hassle eh?
11:15 kf magnuse++
11:15 thd clrh: The difficulty of abstraction is partly that what is returned by the data layer can improperly define the business logic. I had written a meta-bug report about this problem.
11:15 paul_p sekjal, agreed ! and that's where/why we need a more detailled proposition !
11:15 Brooke magnus++
11:15 kf yes
11:15 magnuse if we spend too much time discussing what to do we might never get around to doing anything...
11:14 magnuse loose_consensus_and_running_code++
11:14 sekjal idea for Koha:: namespace: two layers of .pm, Data access and Transactional. Only Data access layer talks to DB, and Transactions talk to Data access layer
11:14 mbalmer I will pbly use two modules/namesspaces, SQL and DB, should they be within Koha or outside? Maybe SQL, which is Koha agnostic, outside?
11:14 kf clrh: that's not like it was done I think
11:13 Brooke can you guys add your reservations to the bug then? Because I'm not seeing those from here.
11:13 clrh it
11:13 clrh it is not just "putting a pm on a new namespace", and I think it should contains data layer problematics too - we need a little bit of time to think about id
11:12 paul_p if we want to split business & data logic, for example, we need to define their namespace as well !
11:12 paul_p Brooke, enough for investigating more. But WHAT do we put in this new namespace !
11:12 clrh it is not just "putting a pm on a new namespace"...
11:12 Waylon k. ill wait... watch. and might learn something.
11:11 Brooke yep
11:11 Waylon Ah.. a meeting currently in session?
11:11 Brooke surely that's enough for a start.
11:11 paul_p ColinC++
11:11 paul_p Brooke, yes, but they're not enough
11:11 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7248 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Caching for services
11:11 kf hm bug 7248 (typo sorry)
11:11 ColinC without seeing the code we have nothing to go on
11:11 Waylon hello all!
11:11 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=929 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , See details of a budget
11:11 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7284 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jcamins, ASSIGNED , Authority matching algorithm improvements
11:11 Brooke galen's guidelines made sense even to me
11:11 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7387 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , Add Template::Toolkit plugin to allow caching of includes
11:11 kf bug 7387, bug 7284, bug 929
11:10 clrh mbalmer: of course
11:10 paul_p Brooke, later !
11:10 Brooke do we vote now or do we vote later?
11:10 mbalmer clrh, maybe the move from C4 to Koha could be used to fix a few SQL things as well
11:10 Brooke if we're looking for official action
11:10 paul_p it's *much* more than hourly loan example.
11:10 Brooke so then
11:10 magnuse clrh++
11:10 clrh kf yep, I did'nt see it (for links)
11:10 paul_p I repeat : we had 2 meetings (at BibLibre) about this refactoring. Joubu even has written a 1st POC that could be shared soon
11:10 magnuse kf: yup, or rather that it had not been officially discussed/decided
11:10 clrh I think we just don't want to copy C4 into Koha but improve thinks
11:10 kf but perhaps we should encourage people working on new features to start using Koha::
11:09 kf yes, because there was disagreement about it
11:09 thd There is a fundamental problem that business logic creeps in or seems especially difficult to abstract just as many things for which we use the database cannot be abstracted to standard SQL alone.
11:09 magnuse jcamins chenged his patch so it does not use Koha:: after all
11:09 kf agreed, so perhaps we can link the other bugs to that
11:09 clrh kf 5549?
11:09 magnuse 7359 was meant as an official starting point and center of discussion for starting moving things into Koha:: namespace, i think
11:08 kf jared did something too for local cover images
11:08 paul_p kf, patch number ?
11:08 kf is one of them
11:08 kf I think hourly loans
11:08 kf there are others
11:08 paul_p just + './Koha' => 'PERL_MODULE_DIR',
11:08 paul_p kf, the patch attached to 7359 contains nothing
11:07 kf if there is disagreement about how things are done there it can be improved, can be used to test the new plan
11:07 paul_p hello sekjal
11:07 kf paul_p: I think if we take too much time planning, we will not get anywhere - there are already patches implementing something that has been talked about a while ago - why not look at those?
11:07 paul_p thd, we had 2 meetings (at BibLibre) about that. Joubu even has written a 1st POC that could be shared soon
11:07 sekjal #info Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions, QAM foe 3.8 (sorry I'm late, alarmclock malfunction)
11:06 thd paul_p: I had thought that there was a list. Separating business logic from X always seems much more difficult in practise than in mere contemplation.
11:06 paul_p magnuse, that's a good start, right
11:06 paul_p I think most of the general directions are in our minds, but written nowhere.
11:06 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Namespace_QA_Rules
11:05 paul_p we must have general directions about where we want to go, then a POC, then patches.
11:04 paul_p kf, i'm not clear
11:04 wahanui i already had it that way, slef.
11:04 slef POC is Proof Of Concept
11:04 kf paul_p: plans are different things
11:04 paul_p kf, yes it is.
11:04 clrh kf we talk about application design, we cant just drop some code lines
11:04 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7359 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Begin migration to a new "Koha" namespace from the old "C4" namespace
11:04 magnuse bug 7359
11:04 kf Ithought it was code showing how something works
11:04 paul_p a POC is a more general plan on where we want to go
11:03 paul_p kf that's not a POC !
11:03 paul_p kf = where ?
11:03 kf patches already using a new Koha:: namespace
11:03 kf paul_p: I think thre are some POC
11:03 clrh but there is to "front layer" and surely somthing between
11:03 paul_p what we need now, I think, is a POC !
11:02 clrh thd we talk before about "data layer"
11:02 paul_p We spoke a lot of code rewritting, and we (BibLibre) agree it's needed. I think most of us agree on how it should be done (separate business logic/ database for example)
11:02 clrh a layer in app is parts of code that answer to some goals
11:02 Brooke looks like Chris N
11:02 thd or What layers are there / should there be?
11:02 thd What is in a layer?
11:01 paul_p was it me that added this topic ? I think so.
11:01 paul_p s/thing/think/
11:00 slef thd: yeah, some (jcamins?) suggested actual fishing for fish as an activity on the Friday.
11:00 clrh as I said, we try to thing about koha design and layers
11:00 Brooke galen up yet?
11:00 thd mle: Perhaps I was not taking your reference to 'fishing' literally enough.
11:00 mle thd: ++
10:59 Brooke #topic Discuss the move from C4 to Koha namespace
10:59 slef #info we look forward to welcoming you in Scotland's capital during the UN International Year of Co-operatives!
10:59 slef OK, hearing nothing more...
10:59 mle thd the expense of the venue is very very affordable
10:59 Brooke are we exhausted on Conference yet?
10:59 thd mle: The lower the cost the greater the attendance.
10:58 thd mle: the overall expense of the venue is a most important question.
10:58 mle thd: we have some ideas, but notheing to announce as yet. : )
10:58 slef Any other questions, or tips, or whatever?
10:57 * mle googles guggling : )
10:57 AmitG heya slef
10:56 slef thd: I'm leaving that to mle because he's in that city and I'm not.
10:56 slef mle: any answer to thd?
10:55 thd slef: What are your plans to fish for defeating the expense problem?
10:55 ColinC guggling in Scotland
10:55 slef #action add initial interest/sign-up lists for conference, hackfest, road trip and Friday social to the wiki Category:KohaCon12
10:55 asaurat but well, a road trip is fine too ;)
10:55 Brooke asaurat++
10:55 asaurat I fish with my bare hands
10:54 mle inital fishing enquiries suggest its expensive near edinburgh
10:54 Brooke #help now that we have dates and junk start adding things to the wiki
10:54 slef paul_p: could someone from BL add a sign-up/interest list to the wiki, please? Just who to contact and how many seats?
10:53 paul_p (+ for the friday off trip, of course)
10:53 paul_p slef, you can consider there is an interest from BibLibre (for a roadtrip)
10:51 slef paul_p: ah, I was meaning the Friday off. I'd like to do a road trip too, if there is interest.
10:51 asaurat a fishing session on Loch Ness
10:51 mbalmer norther scotland whisky trails ;)
10:51 paul_p slef, of course, but the trip Auckland=> Wellington was so great that I would be very happy to do London=>Edinburg as well !
10:51 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Wishlist_for_KohaCon12
10:50 slef paul_p: I intend to, but at this point it is only an intention. We will prioritise organising the conference.
10:50 slef We will give preference to things that appear on the Wishlist (and haven't been added by their presenter ;-) )
10:49 paul_p slef, do you plan to organize a trip like in NZ ?
10:49 slef jwagner: after we've contacted the volunteers
10:49 mbalmer slef, I could to a DB releated talk, about how to, what to, what not to, and so on.
10:48 slef #info the wiki will be updated RSN (please help), the list emailed this week, some sort of sponsorship drive started this month and registrations taken
10:48 mle : )
10:48 jwagner slef, when will you be asking for presenters?
10:47 kf slef: will you send a mail to the list too?
10:47 magnuse slef++ mle++
10:47 slef #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:KohaCon12
10:47 mbalmer oh, cool!
10:47 kf slef++ mle++
10:47 slef #info That's in central Edinburgh
10:46 paul_p hooray for dates !
10:46 paul_p slef++
10:46 Brooke hooray for dates
10:46 mbalmer where?
10:46 slef #info Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
10:46 Brooke I ate well when there, bro
10:45 Brooke slef said support oceania
10:45 Brooke paul_p that's true of everywhere
10:45 paul_p I have ate the taro and kumara => ??
10:45 paul_p Brooke, can I say most of us (BibLibre) don't understand half of your sentences ?
10:45 magnuse ooh!
10:44 * slef looks it up to make sure
10:44 slef OK. I think mle will scream if I'm wrong, but we're going to release the dates now.
10:44 mbalmer how many people do usually attend a KohaCon?
10:44 kf paul_p++ was writing database documentation today and I think some tables are no longer used
10:44 Brooke #topic KohaCon2012
10:44 mbalmer ok. I am fine with the outcome. Thanks!
10:44 Brooke it's not the *next* subject, but it's coming
10:43 Brooke thd: I have ate the taro and kumara ;P
10:43 clrh clean layers, no circular dependencies, etc. but it is next subject ;)
10:43 Brooke if you're gonna bother with compatibility might as well bother as much as poss
10:43 mbalmer If we can factor out the mysqlisms, and psqlisms, we can do the same for virtually *ANY* database
10:43 paul_p inconsistencies or strange things in DB (from a design point of view)
10:43 thd Brooke: the goal is to support Oceania. ;)
10:43 Brooke kk just putting that out there
10:43 paul_p Other information: this afternoon, joubu & i have a meeting to list all inconsistencies in the database. We will write a wiki page.
10:43 mbalmer Brooke, I agree totally.
10:43 clrh ColinC: we agree too
10:42 clrh so mbalmer if you can share your best practices, it would be great
10:42 ColinC Surely the good practice is to factor out the sql to a db layer
10:42 Brooke the goal is to support all options possible
10:42 Brooke the goal is not to support Eurasia or Eastasia
10:42 mbalmer I can start such a document. I have very long experience in the database area. And I still think the Koha database is not too complex.
10:42 clrh what to use
10:42 thd mbalmer++ dynamically generated code
10:42 magnuse clrh++
10:42 paul_p mbalmer, joubu is sitted just on my right, so you've already 2 members of the QA team that are OK to check SQL if they have directions to do so !
10:42 clrh and we should have a list of good practices of what touse and what avoid
10:41 thd mbalmer: One very radical idea is to not use SQL at all for some problems which are not reducible to standard SQL.
10:41 clrh at BibLibre, we have a hook "pre-cpommit" we use to filter bad practice before git commit, it helps
10:41 mbalmer but I think a way can be found to make such code work on MySQL _AND_ PostgreSQL by dynamically producing the SQL code in an optimal form for the respective database.
10:41 paul_p mbalmer, yep
10:41 mbalmer thd, exactly.
10:40 mbalmer so you all agree that supporting PostgreSQL, in addition to MySQL, is a viable goal?
10:40 thd mbalmer: There is certainly some code which is not reducible to standard SQL.
10:40 magnuse unit_tests++
10:40 paul_p s/test/unit test/
10:40 paul_p mbalmer, you could even write a test, like complaining if you detect CURDATE() somewhere !
10:39 mbalmer A neutral form is not always possible, that is way that SQL layer is needed.
10:39 paul_p mbalmer, it's something for QA, if you can write guidelines, then that would be a good start !
10:39 Brooke mm hmm
10:39 mbalmer that is why started a page with SQL idioms, MySQL form, PostgreSQL form, neutral form.
10:39 paul_p so not a goal in itself, just a consequence of a "refactoring for more performance/stability/portability"
10:38 mbalmer but that means that people should stop committing stuff that is MySQL only… At least when a neutral form is easy to accomplish
10:38 paul_p ok, we agree then. And in this case, it's something that must be included in the general process rewrite/refactoring
10:38 mbalmer paul_p, yes support PostgreSQL as one possibility, of course.
10:38 slef mbalmer: yes, I think it should be, as a step towards full DB Independence
10:38 Brooke putting it here if possible so folks that are curious can poke at it
10:37 mbalmer Brooke, what do you mean? putting it online?
10:37 paul_p mbalmer, I don't think so, our goal should be to be database agnostic
10:37 Brooke but I could be very wrong.
10:37 slef Brooke: mbalmer: or #link?
10:37 Brooke I think interoperability is always a goal
10:37 mbalmer If yes, then I can write up some best practices etc. documents
10:37 Brooke can you #info your git branch if it's amenable?
10:37 mbalmer big question NR 1: Is PostgreSQL a goal?
10:36 mbalmer I have a pgsql git branch locally, btw.
10:36 clrh try to think of better code layers and splitting stuffs
10:36 mbalmer of course I can share.
10:36 paul_p mbalmer, about the abstraction be carefull, it may conflict with general code rewriting (remove C4 !)
10:36 mbalmer and it is not needed. it easy, if you understand the database stuff right..
10:36 ColinC yes we dont want to reinvent
10:36 clrh because we begin to really think about this work
10:36 mbalmer no.
10:35 magnuse isn't there some pre-existing code that can be used?
10:35 slef there must be other pages out there already. We are not the first project to move from mysql to multiple sqlds
10:35 clrh mbalmer: great, could you share it?
10:35 mbalmer shim as in as small as possible and as little overhead as possible.
10:35 mbalmer and I already started to write the abstraction layer.
10:35 thd mbalmer: "shim"?
10:35 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/PostgreSQL
10:35 mbalmer I already started that page.
10:35 paul_p like ` iirc
10:35 paul_p mbalmer, would you be able to write a wiki page with incompatibilities ?
10:34 mbalmer I did a code "audit" and identified already many problematic spots. Some of the SQL code is just - excuse me - horrid ;) But easy to fix.
10:34 thd Step 2 is the difficult part.
10:34 mbalmer I think a shim layer is needed that produces some of the SQL code.
10:34 dpavlin mbalmer++
10:34 Brooke step 3 profit?
10:33 thd mbalmer++
10:33 mbalmer 1 will be achieved through 2
10:33 mbalmer 2 Help developers write proper SQL code that runs on both MySQL and PostgreSQL
10:33 mbalmer 1 Let Koha users run Koha on PostgreSQL
10:33 mbalmer I have two goals which would like to be goals of the community:
10:32 Brooke #topic Running Koha on PostgreSQL
10:32 paul_p kf, yep, GSBDing on all BibLibre friday agenda
10:32 mbalmer ah, not another BSD...
10:32 slef wahanui++ for a useful contribution for a change
10:32 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/2012-01-06_Global_bug_squashing_day
10:32 kf so if anyone has problems with testing or questions - I will be around and can answer questions (to my best knowledge)
10:32 Brooke moving on to the nerd fight
10:32 Brooke anyhow
10:32 wahanui rumour has it GBSD is Global Bug Squashing Day
10:32 mbalmer what is GBSD?
10:31 Brooke Lingua Latina :P
10:31 kf GBSD is on friday!
10:31 kf and as we talked about testing
10:31 Brooke no!
10:31 kf oh
10:31 * slef pardonpetas
10:31 paul_p je suis d'accord !
10:31 asaurat :D
10:31 slef eh bon, nous choisons français comme langue official koha-community?
10:31 thd paul_p: I try learning a little French to meet them a little way. :)
10:30 * magnuse has been working on a script to help make testing/signing off easier - improvements welcome https://github.com/MagnusEnger/kohatesting
10:30 paul_p any more question about 3.8 ?
10:30 paul_p kf++
10:30 mbalmer mais oui
10:30 slef bah, you francophobe paul_p ;)
10:30 kf paul_p: I think we shouldn't start the discussison again about what librarians can or not can do ;)
10:30 Brooke asaurat++
10:30 paul_p mbalmer, you speak french ?
10:30 asaurat we should all switch to latin
10:30 mbalmer mince ;)
10:30 paul_p thinking they could learn git ... no...
10:30 Brooke ha!
10:29 paul_p thd, in France, if librarian were 1st all learning english, I would be *very* happy.
10:29 paul_p s/welcomed/use/
10:29 thd paul_p: True librarians should also learn git, even if that would not be necessary for all.
10:29 paul_p well, we will see how the sandbox works & is welcomed by volunteers !
10:28 Brooke I think it's important not to feel overwhelmed and rushed as a dev
10:28 paul_p kf, agreed
10:28 kf it's give and take
10:28 mbalmer #info we are setting up a group with two librarians, one content guy and one tech guy
10:28 kf between writing new features (which is always more fun) and looking at the code of others
10:28 kf I mean we have to split time
10:28 thd paul_p++ more librarians
10:28 paul_p and I mean true librarians, those that will never learn "git bz apply 1234"
10:28 kf developers have to do it too
10:28 Brooke (not that Cait is not a Librarian)
10:28 kf paul_p: I think it's not up to librarians to do all of the job
10:28 Brooke paul_p++
10:28 paul_p I really want to have more *librarians* involved
10:28 clrh sandboxes should help, everything that automate things helps but right, we need time and people ;)
10:27 Brooke but if it moved into pick up work at a Library, folks that don't usually code could contribute to the effort :)
10:27 paul_p kf, yes and no : the problem is also having a git setup with at least a few git skills
10:27 mle #info Matthew Edmondson, software.coop/Project Manager (apologies for latenesss)
10:27 paul_p #info Paul is working on sandbox system and should have something in the next weeks. That will help librarians testing patches
10:27 wahanui some of it is foolish pride
10:27 Brooke some of it
10:27 kf the problem is making time for it and doing it
10:27 kf I think people here could work without sandboxes easily
10:26 kf I am not sure it will
10:26 paul_p I really hope too !
10:26 Brooke I should hope a working sandbox will speed this up cait :)
10:26 kf we could move much faster
10:25 paul_p and we will submit in the next months a lot of changes to acquisition & serials, so we will need everybody help here !
10:25 kf so please, if everyone here would sign off one bug a week, or look at it, coment, add information
10:25 Brooke #help as always, we need more people to help with signoffs, and kf promised to bake for you *notintendedasafactualstatement
10:25 paul_p kf++
10:25 kf it's a task too big for a few people and very important
10:25 slef #info Koha master/dev versions reporting 3.6.x version numbers is a temporary problem which will be fixed. Email to koha-devel soon.
10:25 kf signing off can not only be done by a few people / bug wranglers
10:24 paul_p thd, about your question = yes, our halftime include signof & testing, of course
10:24 kf but I want to remind people to look at patches
10:24 kf not a question
10:24 paul_p kf, your question ?
10:24 paul_p I have to summarize everything and send a mail to koha-devel
10:24 slef paul_p: ok, temporary problem. Cool. Thanks.
10:24 paul_p slef, yep, and that's a mistake (from me) i'll fix (vey) soon. We had a long (private) discussion about that with rangi & chris_n
10:23 kf slef: no reason :)
10:23 slef kf: oops, sorry!
10:23 paul_p #info rel_3_8 is used by the Release Manager when pushing a patch that will, then, be in 3.8 once it's released
10:23 slef Anyway, that clears that one up even if it's counter-intuitive to me. Thanks. My other confusion is how do I tell which public-reported bugs are from 3.6 and which are from master? I think master now reports a 3.6 version number.
10:22 kf as paul_p mentioned the sign-off process - I would like to talk about that once paul_p is finished answering slef's question
10:22 slef paul_p: I've detected it in both, so I'd intuitively thought it should be reported against the latest applicable and then the fix will spread backwards.
10:22 paul_p #info if you detect a bug in 3.6, declare it rel_3_6. If you don't know, or if it's an ENHancement, use master
10:21 Brooke #info submit bugs against the version where you detect it
10:21 thd paul_p: The better translation from the Greek is supposedly "liable to death". However, death should be illegal. Please let us have no fatal accidents.
10:21 paul_p slef, yes, but the workflow is to submit bugs against the version where it's detected.
10:20 slef s/still/also
10:20 slef why should use 3.6? In the example, the bug is still in master.
10:20 paul_p sound clear ?
10:20 paul_p (if you use master i'll update to rel_3_6 when pushing the patch)
10:20 paul_p in your example, you should use 3.6, and you can use master
10:20 slef paul_p: yeah but you've temporary super cow powers.
10:19 paul_p slef, "mortals" should not use rel_3_8 (but, breaking news, i'm mortal too ;-) )
10:19 slef paul_p: in other words, mortals should not use the rel_3_8 version?
10:19 slef paul_p: so what in my example case? Bug (not ENH) reported to me against 3.6 which I confirm is still present is master, but I feel should be fixed in a 3.8 release? => master?
10:19 paul_p * rel_3_8 => should be used only by me when pushing to say "it's for 3.8"
10:18 paul_p * master => the patch has not be merged, and we don't know in which version it will be merged
10:18 paul_p * rel_3_6 => the patch will be in 3.6 or is in 3.6
10:18 paul_p so:
10:18 paul_p slef, small ENH are pushed in rel_3_6 by chris_n if they apply and don't change the workflow/display
10:17 slef paul_p: not usually an ENH
10:17 paul_p SO :
10:17 paul_p depending on if it's to be backported to 3.6 or will be in 3.8
10:17 paul_p slef: if it's an ENH, declare it against master. when the patch is submitted/pushed, I (as RM) will tag it to rel_3_8 or rel_3_6
10:16 slef paul_p: I'll nearly always have confirmed it against master.
10:16 huginn Brooke: The operation succeeded. Quote #174 added.
10:16 Brooke @quote add paul_p "I answer to SLEF"
10:16 paul_p slef: if you declare a bug, please declare it against the version you get it (3.6)
10:16 thd paul_p: Is that not funded for Koha in reality or eventuality?
10:15 paul_p I answer to SLEF
10:15 kf does the koha work include sign-offs and testing?
10:15 paul_p thd, BibLibre funded stuff ;-)
10:15 slef Brooke: I can't type that fast :)
10:15 thd paul_p: What does the BibLibre development team do when not working on Koha?
10:15 paul_p slef, could you explain ?
10:15 slef First of all, when should I tag a bug rel_3_8 and when master?
10:15 Brooke how so?
10:15 slef I'm still a bit confused about 3.6/3.8/master.
10:14 clrh (Joubu: julian_m matts and me)
10:14 magnuse yay!
10:14 paul_p that will be dedicated to submitting our acquisition/serials/solR work to mainstream
10:13 paul_p another topic: we plan to have BibLibre dev team dedicating half of his time to Koha (4 persons).
10:13 kf some of the patches stuck in queue are hard to test without reading the code/looking at the code too
10:13 kf in general it would be great to see more different people signing off
10:13 * Brooke will guinea pig for that.
10:12 paul_p I may open something soon, for some volunteers who could be candidate to test
10:12 paul_p otherwise, i'm working on my sandbox testing mechanism those days. I've something that start to work
10:11 magnuse #link http://lists.koha-community.org/pipermail/koha-devel/2011-December/036711.html
10:11 paul_p mostly that's those who are hard/long to test
10:11 paul_p there is a lot of traffic. It seems the process of signing-QAing-pushing goes faster and faster, even if some patches stay stuck for a long period
10:11 paul_p well, I've sent my monthly RM newsletter, where i've already written many things.
10:10 Brooke take it away Paul
10:10 slef #info the Roadmap to 3.4 and Roadmap to 3.6 wiki pages need updating to reflect current release maintenance
10:10 Brooke #topic Roadmap to 3.8
10:10 Brooke kk
10:09 kf for 3.4.8
10:09 kf 26th december: string freeze on 8th, release on 14th january
10:09 Brooke #Topic Roadmap to 3.6
10:09 Brooke and I'm thinking that might affect the next point too but hey
10:08 kf [Koha-devel] 3.4.8 Release Timeline Update
10:08 Brooke k consult el mailing list
10:08 kf I think he published some dates to the mailing list
10:07 paul_p chris_n is not here, I suspect we won't have any update
10:07 Brooke update on old stuff anyone?
10:06 Brooke #topic Roadmap to 3.4
10:06 slef Hrm, too much eggnog for me, clearly.
10:06 Brooke yeah stop hoppin the agenda :P
10:06 Brooke mebbe try next year, mebbe not
10:06 Brooke the achievement thing
10:06 Brooke and also that submission was over KohaCon
10:06 slef DML?
10:06 mbalmer my own announcement would be support for PostgreSQL, but that is already a point on the agenda
10:05 Brooke on a serious note, we didn't get the DML grant, but that's no surprise given how hostile their attachment thingy was
10:05 slef magnuse: ta. Just found it :)
10:05 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_Meeting,_4_January_2012
10:05 paul_p (and more sunny in March, so come here for the hackfest :D )
10:05 slef paul_p: send the sun North, please!
10:05 Brooke yes it is slef
10:05 * slef plays hunt the agenda
10:05 paul_p yes, i've one: it's sunny in Marseille ;-)
10:05 slef is KohaCon its own item?
10:04 Brooke anyone?
10:04 Brooke #topic Announcements
10:04 paul_p no one from NZ ? you're all sleeping already ?
10:04 Brooke neat someone stuck announcements on the agenda
10:02 Joubu hello
10:02 matts #info Matthias Meusburger, BibLibre, Sélestat, France
10:02 Joubu #info Joubu Jonathan Druart. BibLibre FR
10:01 julian_m #info Julian Maurice, BibLibre, Marseille, France
10:01 asaurat #info Adrien Saurat, BibLibre, France
10:01 clrh #info Claire, BibLibre, MArseille France
10:01 mbalmer #info Marc Balmer, micro systems, CH, NetBSD committer, X.Org committer, Basel, Switzerland
10:01 slef #info MJ Ray, the http://software.coop's liaison to http://koha-community.org
10:01 ColinC #info Colin Campbell, PTFS-Europe, UK
10:01 thd #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
10:01 jwagner #info Jane Wagner, LibLime/PTFS
10:01 paul_p #info Paul Poulain, France, 3.8 Release Manager
10:00 Brooke Haere Mai welcome to the Koha Community Meeting feel free to introduce yourself with #info
10:00 magnuse #info Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway
10:00 kmkale #info Koustubha Kale Anant Corporation, India
10:00 kf #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ Germany
10:00 Brooke #topic Introductions
10:00 huginn Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
10:00 huginn Meeting started Wed Jan 4 10:00:01 2012 UTC. The chair is Brooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
10:00 Brooke #startmeeting
09:59 thd Brooke: Who is "jones" and what is "First Monday"?
09:59 asaurat hello all and happy new year :)
09:58 Brooke it's never to early for mimosas, Paul ;)
09:58 clrh hello all :)
09:58 mbalmer hny to every1!
09:58 slef happy new year everyone
09:58 paul_p happynew year slef
09:58 kf happy new year :)
09:58 paul_p hello & good (early) morning USA !
09:58 kf hi slef :)
09:57 slef morning
09:57 * Brooke is jonesin for a new First Monday
09:56 mbalmer ok, np then. I am here ..
09:56 * Brooke has tried. ;)
09:56 Brooke they'd throttle me if I started 5 min early
09:56 Brooke nope
09:56 mbalmer meeting started yet?
09:54 Brooke hi there
09:54 julian_m hi #koha
09:40 kf anyone an idea about the alert and notifys tables? are those used for anything?
09:40 kf hm
09:36 Brooke death to C4 by lingering nomenclature poison
09:30 huginn Brooke: The operation succeeded.
09:30 Brooke @later tell druthb http://www.xkcd.com/
09:30 magnuse yay for the french!
09:29 Brooke in fact, the French *made* me chair after gin.
09:28 Brooke never said I was sober :P
09:28 Brooke I just agreed to be a bus driver
09:28 Brooke heh
09:28 magnuse good thing our designated driver is present and accounted for then!
09:27 Brooke a yep
09:27 magnuse meeting is in ~30 minutes?
09:26 Brooke ;)
09:26 magnuse yeah, that's mean ;-)
09:25 Brooke Galen won't let me create a circular dependency! He's so strict if he won't let me do that!
09:24 Brooke howdy
09:24 kf hi Brooke
09:24 magnuse \o
09:23 Brooke 0/
08:27 kf hi AmitG
08:27 kf good night bag
08:26 magnuse good night bag
08:26 bag night all
08:26 AmitG heya paul_p, kf
08:24 paul_p hello kf
08:24 kf bonjour paul_p :)
08:23 paul_p magnuse, not just preparation: the vote of Iowa for the republican candidate choose
08:21 kf oh
08:21 magnuse preparations for us elections...
08:20 kf ?
08:19 magnuse looks like romney by 8 votes
08:17 kf hi asaurat :)
08:16 asaurat hi!
08:15 kf good morning #koha
08:07 paul_p and the winner is ? (at 8AM here they said XX, by 34 votes, and at 8:30 they said romney by 8 votes)
08:07 bag but I think they are in now
08:06 bag heh - not the Iowa results
08:06 paul_p waiting for Iowa results or the IRC meeting ?
08:05 bag it's late :)
08:05 paul_p hello magnuse
08:05 paul_p hi bag. Very early (or late) for you isn't it ?
08:05 bag heya paul_p
08:04 magnuse bonjour france!
08:03 paul_p good morning #koha
08:03 bag hi francharb
08:01 wahanui what's up, francharb
08:01 francharb hello
07:57 matts hi
07:49 wahanui salut, reiveune
07:49 reiveune hello
07:30 bag but last year at this time… I was in a way way different place. Long live Koha 3.4 :) - my most favorite verison of koha
07:30 bag I'm only off my 37 minutes and 13 seconds
07:29 bag wow that's weird
07:29 huginn bag: brendan was last seen in #koha 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours, 37 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <brendan> @wunder 93109
07:29 bag @seen brendan
07:28 bag ;)
07:28 bag HA
07:28 huginn bag: I have not seen kados.
07:28 bag @seen kados
07:26 huginn cait: mtj was last seen in #koha 5 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <mtj> ooh, Devel::CoverReport looks to do the magic there
07:26 cait @seen mtj
07:23 bag love it ;)
07:23 wahanui DeM KraZy NutZ!!
07:23 bag mtj?
07:23 bag hi there alex_a
07:23 alex_a hello
07:22 alex_a hello
07:22 bag heh
07:17 magnuse especially if you just realized you have to do it before you can leave
07:17 bag totally!
07:17 magnuse ooh, sounds like fun
07:16 bag ah I'll be here for awhile I've got to program some acquistions migrations scripts for a SD migration :(
07:16 magnuse yay
07:16 bag just checking out - with a nice mixed drink ;)
07:16 cait and hi bag, morning magnuse :)
07:15 magnuse just checking in to work...
07:15 magnuse yo bag
07:15 bag hey what up magnuse
07:15 bag noice
07:15 cait or found the reason
07:15 cait found it
07:15 bag hardy har har
07:15 cait ok
07:14 bag ;)
07:14 bag try searching for it
07:11 * cait is missing OPACItemHolds
07:11 magnuse huh?
07:11 cait uh
07:07 magnuse kia ora #koha!
05:12 huginn cait: The current temperature in Konstanz, Germany is 7.0�C (6:00 AM CET on January 04, 2012). Conditions: Light Rain. Humidity: 84%. Dew Point: 5.0�C. Pressure: 29.96 in 1014 hPa (Falling).
05:12 cait @wunder Konstanz
05:12 cait eek rain
04:45 cait hi eythian :)
04:43 eythian hi cait
04:43 cait hi #koha
03:30 bag heya AmitG
03:30 AmitG heya bag
03:30 AmitG heya bga
03:11 bag evening #koha
00:55 rangi very cool
00:55 rangi http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/musopenorg_commissioning_prague_symphony_orchestra_january
00:34 huginn Brooke: The operation succeeded.
00:34 Brooke @later tell Oak Camille Claudel (1988)
00:31 Brooke but does this mean that when fighting an orca, one SHOULD fight like an octopus?
00:31 Brooke http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/02/scientists-dozens-of-hybrid-sharks-found-off-australia/?hpt=hp_c2
00:30 Brooke the sharks are plotting revenge though
00:30 Brooke o/
00:01 rangi yup
00:01 wizzyrea that shark got pwnt.
00:00 wizzyrea there has to be a joke in there somewhere
00:00 rangi http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/317034