Time Nick Message 00:00 rangi http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/317034 00:00 wizzyrea there has to be a joke in there somewhere 00:01 wizzyrea that shark got pwnt. 00:01 rangi yup 00:30 Brooke o/ 00:30 Brooke the sharks are plotting revenge though 00:31 Brooke http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/02/scientists-dozens-of-hybrid-sharks-found-off-australia/?hpt=hp_c2 00:31 Brooke but does this mean that when fighting an orca, one SHOULD fight like an octopus? 00:34 Brooke @later tell Oak Camille Claudel (1988) 00:34 huginn Brooke: The operation succeeded. 00:55 rangi http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/musopenorg_commissioning_prague_symphony_orchestra_january 00:55 rangi very cool 03:11 bag evening #koha 03:30 AmitG heya bga 03:30 AmitG heya bag 03:30 bag heya AmitG 04:43 cait hi #koha 04:43 eythian hi cait 04:45 cait hi eythian :) 05:12 cait eek rain 05:12 cait @wunder Konstanz 05:12 huginn cait: The current temperature in Konstanz, Germany is 7.0�C (6:00 AM CET on January 04, 2012). Conditions: Light Rain. Humidity: 84%. Dew Point: 5.0�C. Pressure: 29.96 in 1014 hPa (Falling). 07:07 magnuse kia ora #koha! 07:11 cait uh 07:11 magnuse huh? 07:11 * cait is missing OPACItemHolds 07:14 bag try searching for it 07:14 bag ;) 07:15 cait ok 07:15 bag hardy har har 07:15 cait found it 07:15 cait or found the reason 07:15 bag noice 07:15 bag hey what up magnuse 07:15 magnuse yo bag 07:15 magnuse just checking in to work... 07:16 cait and hi bag, morning magnuse :) 07:16 bag just checking out - with a nice mixed drink ;) 07:16 magnuse yay 07:16 bag ah I'll be here for awhile I've got to program some acquistions migrations scripts for a SD migration :( 07:17 magnuse ooh, sounds like fun 07:17 bag totally! 07:17 magnuse especially if you just realized you have to do it before you can leave 07:22 bag heh 07:22 alex_a hello 07:23 alex_a hello 07:23 bag hi there alex_a 07:23 bag mtj? 07:23 wahanui DeM KraZy NutZ!! 07:23 bag love it ;) 07:26 cait @seen mtj 07:26 huginn cait: mtj was last seen in #koha 5 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <mtj> ooh, Devel::CoverReport looks to do the magic there 07:28 bag @seen kados 07:28 huginn bag: I have not seen kados. 07:28 bag HA 07:28 bag ;) 07:29 bag @seen brendan 07:29 huginn bag: brendan was last seen in #koha 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours, 37 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <brendan> @wunder 93109 07:29 bag wow that's weird 07:30 bag I'm only off my 37 minutes and 13 seconds 07:30 bag but last year at this time… I was in a way way different place. Long live Koha 3.4 :) - my most favorite verison of koha 07:49 reiveune hello 07:49 wahanui salut, reiveune 07:57 matts hi 08:01 francharb hello 08:01 wahanui what's up, francharb 08:03 bag hi francharb 08:03 paul_p good morning #koha 08:04 magnuse bonjour france! 08:05 bag heya paul_p 08:05 paul_p hi bag. Very early (or late) for you isn't it ? 08:05 paul_p hello magnuse 08:05 bag it's late :) 08:06 paul_p waiting for Iowa results or the IRC meeting ? 08:06 bag heh - not the Iowa results 08:07 bag but I think they are in now 08:07 paul_p and the winner is ? (at 8AM here they said XX, by 34 votes, and at 8:30 they said romney by 8 votes) 08:15 kf good morning #koha 08:16 asaurat hi! 08:17 kf hi asaurat :) 08:19 magnuse looks like romney by 8 votes 08:20 kf ? 08:21 magnuse preparations for us elections... 08:21 kf oh 08:23 paul_p magnuse, not just preparation: the vote of Iowa for the republican candidate choose 08:24 kf bonjour paul_p :) 08:24 paul_p hello kf 08:26 AmitG heya paul_p, kf 08:26 bag night all 08:26 magnuse good night bag 08:27 kf good night bag 08:27 kf hi AmitG 09:23 Brooke 0/ 09:24 magnuse \o 09:24 kf hi Brooke 09:24 Brooke howdy 09:25 Brooke Galen won't let me create a circular dependency! He's so strict if he won't let me do that! 09:26 magnuse yeah, that's mean ;-) 09:26 Brooke ;) 09:27 magnuse meeting is in ~30 minutes? 09:27 Brooke a yep 09:28 magnuse good thing our designated driver is present and accounted for then! 09:28 Brooke heh 09:28 Brooke I just agreed to be a bus driver 09:28 Brooke never said I was sober :P 09:29 Brooke in fact, the French *made* me chair after gin. 09:30 magnuse yay for the french! 09:30 Brooke @later tell druthb http://www.xkcd.com/ 09:30 huginn Brooke: The operation succeeded. 09:36 Brooke death to C4 by lingering nomenclature poison 09:40 kf hm 09:40 kf anyone an idea about the alert and notifys tables? are those used for anything? 09:54 julian_m hi #koha 09:54 Brooke hi there 09:56 mbalmer meeting started yet? 09:56 Brooke nope 09:56 Brooke they'd throttle me if I started 5 min early 09:56 * Brooke has tried. ;) 09:56 mbalmer ok, np then. I am here .. 09:57 * Brooke is jonesin for a new First Monday 09:57 slef morning 09:58 kf hi slef :) 09:58 paul_p hello & good (early) morning USA ! 09:58 kf happy new year :) 09:58 paul_p happynew year slef 09:58 slef happy new year everyone 09:58 mbalmer hny to every1! 09:58 clrh hello all :) 09:58 Brooke it's never to early for mimosas, Paul ;) 09:59 asaurat hello all and happy new year :) 09:59 thd Brooke: Who is "jones" and what is "First Monday"? 10:00 Brooke #startmeeting 10:00 huginn Meeting started Wed Jan 4 10:00:01 2012 UTC. The chair is Brooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 10:00 huginn Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 10:00 Brooke #topic Introductions 10:00 kf #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ Germany 10:00 kmkale #info Koustubha Kale Anant Corporation, India 10:00 magnuse #info Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway 10:00 Brooke Haere Mai welcome to the Koha Community Meeting feel free to introduce yourself with #info 10:01 paul_p #info Paul Poulain, France, 3.8 Release Manager 10:01 jwagner #info Jane Wagner, LibLime/PTFS 10:01 thd #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 10:01 ColinC #info Colin Campbell, PTFS-Europe, UK 10:01 slef #info MJ Ray, the http://software.coop's liaison to http://koha-community.org 10:01 mbalmer #info Marc Balmer, micro systems, CH, NetBSD committer, X.Org committer, Basel, Switzerland 10:01 clrh #info Claire, BibLibre, MArseille France 10:01 asaurat #info Adrien Saurat, BibLibre, France 10:01 julian_m #info Julian Maurice, BibLibre, Marseille, France 10:02 Joubu #info Joubu Jonathan Druart. BibLibre FR 10:02 matts #info Matthias Meusburger, BibLibre, Sélestat, France 10:02 Joubu hello 10:04 Brooke neat someone stuck announcements on the agenda 10:04 paul_p no one from NZ ? you're all sleeping already ? 10:04 Brooke #topic Announcements 10:04 Brooke anyone? 10:05 slef is KohaCon its own item? 10:05 paul_p yes, i've one: it's sunny in Marseille ;-) 10:05 * slef plays hunt the agenda 10:05 Brooke yes it is slef 10:05 slef paul_p: send the sun North, please! 10:05 paul_p (and more sunny in March, so come here for the hackfest :D ) 10:05 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_Meeting,_4_January_2012 10:05 slef magnuse: ta. Just found it :) 10:05 Brooke on a serious note, we didn't get the DML grant, but that's no surprise given how hostile their attachment thingy was 10:06 mbalmer my own announcement would be support for PostgreSQL, but that is already a point on the agenda 10:06 slef DML? 10:06 Brooke and also that submission was over KohaCon 10:06 Brooke the achievement thing 10:06 Brooke mebbe try next year, mebbe not 10:06 Brooke yeah stop hoppin the agenda :P 10:06 slef Hrm, too much eggnog for me, clearly. 10:06 Brooke #topic Roadmap to 3.4 10:07 Brooke update on old stuff anyone? 10:07 paul_p chris_n is not here, I suspect we won't have any update 10:08 kf I think he published some dates to the mailing list 10:08 Brooke k consult el mailing list 10:08 kf [Koha-devel] 3.4.8 Release Timeline Update 10:09 Brooke and I'm thinking that might affect the next point too but hey 10:09 Brooke #Topic Roadmap to 3.6 10:09 kf 26th december: string freeze on 8th, release on 14th january 10:09 kf for 3.4.8 10:10 Brooke kk 10:10 Brooke #topic Roadmap to 3.8 10:10 slef #info the Roadmap to 3.4 and Roadmap to 3.6 wiki pages need updating to reflect current release maintenance 10:10 Brooke take it away Paul 10:11 paul_p well, I've sent my monthly RM newsletter, where i've already written many things. 10:11 paul_p there is a lot of traffic. It seems the process of signing-QAing-pushing goes faster and faster, even if some patches stay stuck for a long period 10:11 paul_p mostly that's those who are hard/long to test 10:11 magnuse #link http://lists.koha-community.org/pipermail/koha-devel/2011-December/036711.html 10:12 paul_p otherwise, i'm working on my sandbox testing mechanism those days. I've something that start to work 10:12 paul_p I may open something soon, for some volunteers who could be candidate to test 10:13 * Brooke will guinea pig for that. 10:13 kf in general it would be great to see more different people signing off 10:13 kf some of the patches stuck in queue are hard to test without reading the code/looking at the code too 10:13 paul_p another topic: we plan to have BibLibre dev team dedicating half of his time to Koha (4 persons). 10:14 paul_p that will be dedicated to submitting our acquisition/serials/solR work to mainstream 10:14 magnuse yay! 10:14 clrh (Joubu: julian_m matts and me) 10:15 slef I'm still a bit confused about 3.6/3.8/master. 10:15 Brooke how so? 10:15 slef First of all, when should I tag a bug rel_3_8 and when master? 10:15 paul_p slef, could you explain ? 10:15 thd paul_p: What does the BibLibre development team do when not working on Koha? 10:15 slef Brooke: I can't type that fast :) 10:15 paul_p thd, BibLibre funded stuff ;-) 10:15 kf does the koha work include sign-offs and testing? 10:15 paul_p I answer to SLEF 10:16 thd paul_p: Is that not funded for Koha in reality or eventuality? 10:16 paul_p slef: if you declare a bug, please declare it against the version you get it (3.6) 10:16 Brooke @quote add paul_p "I answer to SLEF" 10:16 huginn Brooke: The operation succeeded. Quote #174 added. 10:16 slef paul_p: I'll nearly always have confirmed it against master. 10:17 paul_p slef: if it's an ENH, declare it against master. when the patch is submitted/pushed, I (as RM) will tag it to rel_3_8 or rel_3_6 10:17 paul_p depending on if it's to be backported to 3.6 or will be in 3.8 10:17 paul_p SO : 10:17 slef paul_p: not usually an ENH 10:18 paul_p slef, small ENH are pushed in rel_3_6 by chris_n if they apply and don't change the workflow/display 10:18 paul_p so: 10:18 paul_p * rel_3_6 => the patch will be in 3.6 or is in 3.6 10:18 paul_p * master => the patch has not be merged, and we don't know in which version it will be merged 10:19 paul_p * rel_3_8 => should be used only by me when pushing to say "it's for 3.8" 10:19 slef paul_p: so what in my example case? Bug (not ENH) reported to me against 3.6 which I confirm is still present is master, but I feel should be fixed in a 3.8 release? => master? 10:19 slef paul_p: in other words, mortals should not use the rel_3_8 version? 10:19 paul_p slef, "mortals" should not use rel_3_8 (but, breaking news, i'm mortal too ;-) ) 10:20 slef paul_p: yeah but you've temporary super cow powers. 10:20 paul_p in your example, you should use 3.6, and you can use master 10:20 paul_p (if you use master i'll update to rel_3_6 when pushing the patch) 10:20 paul_p sound clear ? 10:20 slef why should use 3.6? In the example, the bug is still in master. 10:20 slef s/still/also 10:21 paul_p slef, yes, but the workflow is to submit bugs against the version where it's detected. 10:21 thd paul_p: The better translation from the Greek is supposedly "liable to death". However, death should be illegal. Please let us have no fatal accidents. 10:21 Brooke #info submit bugs against the version where you detect it 10:22 paul_p #info if you detect a bug in 3.6, declare it rel_3_6. If you don't know, or if it's an ENHancement, use master 10:22 slef paul_p: I've detected it in both, so I'd intuitively thought it should be reported against the latest applicable and then the fix will spread backwards. 10:22 kf as paul_p mentioned the sign-off process - I would like to talk about that once paul_p is finished answering slef's question 10:23 slef Anyway, that clears that one up even if it's counter-intuitive to me. Thanks. My other confusion is how do I tell which public-reported bugs are from 3.6 and which are from master? I think master now reports a 3.6 version number. 10:23 paul_p #info rel_3_8 is used by the Release Manager when pushing a patch that will, then, be in 3.8 once it's released 10:23 slef kf: oops, sorry! 10:23 kf slef: no reason :) 10:24 paul_p slef, yep, and that's a mistake (from me) i'll fix (vey) soon. We had a long (private) discussion about that with rangi & chris_n 10:24 slef paul_p: ok, temporary problem. Cool. Thanks. 10:24 paul_p I have to summarize everything and send a mail to koha-devel 10:24 paul_p kf, your question ? 10:24 kf not a question 10:24 kf but I want to remind people to look at patches 10:24 paul_p thd, about your question = yes, our halftime include signof & testing, of course 10:25 kf signing off can not only be done by a few people / bug wranglers 10:25 slef #info Koha master/dev versions reporting 3.6.x version numbers is a temporary problem which will be fixed. Email to koha-devel soon. 10:25 kf it's a task too big for a few people and very important 10:25 paul_p kf++ 10:25 Brooke #help as always, we need more people to help with signoffs, and kf promised to bake for you *notintendedasafactualstatement 10:25 kf so please, if everyone here would sign off one bug a week, or look at it, coment, add information 10:25 paul_p and we will submit in the next months a lot of changes to acquisition & serials, so we will need everybody help here ! 10:26 kf we could move much faster 10:26 Brooke I should hope a working sandbox will speed this up cait :) 10:26 paul_p I really hope too ! 10:26 kf I am not sure it will 10:27 kf I think people here could work without sandboxes easily 10:27 kf the problem is making time for it and doing it 10:27 Brooke some of it 10:27 wahanui some of it is foolish pride 10:27 paul_p #info Paul is working on sandbox system and should have something in the next weeks. That will help librarians testing patches 10:27 mle #info Matthew Edmondson, software.coop/Project Manager (apologies for latenesss) 10:27 paul_p kf, yes and no : the problem is also having a git setup with at least a few git skills 10:27 Brooke but if it moved into pick up work at a Library, folks that don't usually code could contribute to the effort :) 10:28 clrh sandboxes should help, everything that automate things helps but right, we need time and people ;) 10:28 paul_p I really want to have more *librarians* involved 10:28 Brooke paul_p++ 10:28 kf paul_p: I think it's not up to librarians to do all of the job 10:28 Brooke (not that Cait is not a Librarian) 10:28 kf developers have to do it too 10:28 paul_p and I mean true librarians, those that will never learn "git bz apply 1234" 10:28 thd paul_p++ more librarians 10:28 kf I mean we have to split time 10:28 kf between writing new features (which is always more fun) and looking at the code of others 10:28 mbalmer #info we are setting up a group with two librarians, one content guy and one tech guy 10:28 kf it's give and take 10:28 paul_p kf, agreed 10:28 Brooke I think it's important not to feel overwhelmed and rushed as a dev 10:29 paul_p well, we will see how the sandbox works & is welcomed by volunteers ! 10:29 thd paul_p: True librarians should also learn git, even if that would not be necessary for all. 10:29 paul_p s/welcomed/use/ 10:29 paul_p thd, in France, if librarian were 1st all learning english, I would be *very* happy. 10:30 Brooke ha! 10:30 paul_p thinking they could learn git ... no... 10:30 mbalmer mince ;) 10:30 asaurat we should all switch to latin 10:30 paul_p mbalmer, you speak french ? 10:30 Brooke asaurat++ 10:30 kf paul_p: I think we shouldn't start the discussison again about what librarians can or not can do ;) 10:30 slef bah, you francophobe paul_p ;) 10:30 mbalmer mais oui 10:30 paul_p kf++ 10:30 paul_p any more question about 3.8 ? 10:30 * magnuse has been working on a script to help make testing/signing off easier - improvements welcome https://github.com/MagnusEnger/kohatesting 10:31 thd paul_p: I try learning a little French to meet them a little way. :) 10:31 slef eh bon, nous choisons français comme langue official koha-community? 10:31 asaurat :D 10:31 paul_p je suis d'accord ! 10:31 * slef pardonpetas 10:31 kf oh 10:31 Brooke no! 10:31 kf and as we talked about testing 10:31 kf GBSD is on friday! 10:31 Brooke Lingua Latina :P 10:32 mbalmer what is GBSD? 10:32 wahanui rumour has it GBSD is Global Bug Squashing Day 10:32 Brooke anyhow 10:32 Brooke moving on to the nerd fight 10:32 kf so if anyone has problems with testing or questions - I will be around and can answer questions (to my best knowledge) 10:32 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/2012-01-06_Global_bug_squashing_day 10:32 slef wahanui++ for a useful contribution for a change 10:32 mbalmer ah, not another BSD... 10:32 paul_p kf, yep, GSBDing on all BibLibre friday agenda 10:32 Brooke #topic Running Koha on PostgreSQL 10:33 mbalmer I have two goals which would like to be goals of the community: 10:33 mbalmer 1 Let Koha users run Koha on PostgreSQL 10:33 mbalmer 2 Help developers write proper SQL code that runs on both MySQL and PostgreSQL 10:33 mbalmer 1 will be achieved through 2 10:33 thd mbalmer++ 10:34 Brooke step 3 profit? 10:34 dpavlin mbalmer++ 10:34 mbalmer I think a shim layer is needed that produces some of the SQL code. 10:34 thd Step 2 is the difficult part. 10:34 mbalmer I did a code "audit" and identified already many problematic spots. Some of the SQL code is just - excuse me - horrid ;) But easy to fix. 10:35 paul_p mbalmer, would you be able to write a wiki page with incompatibilities ? 10:35 paul_p like ` iirc 10:35 mbalmer I already started that page. 10:35 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/PostgreSQL 10:35 thd mbalmer: "shim"? 10:35 mbalmer and I already started to write the abstraction layer. 10:35 mbalmer shim as in as small as possible and as little overhead as possible. 10:35 clrh mbalmer: great, could you share it? 10:35 slef there must be other pages out there already. We are not the first project to move from mysql to multiple sqlds 10:35 magnuse isn't there some pre-existing code that can be used? 10:36 mbalmer no. 10:36 clrh because we begin to really think about this work 10:36 ColinC yes we dont want to reinvent 10:36 mbalmer and it is not needed. it easy, if you understand the database stuff right.. 10:36 paul_p mbalmer, about the abstraction be carefull, it may conflict with general code rewriting (remove C4 !) 10:36 mbalmer of course I can share. 10:36 clrh try to think of better code layers and splitting stuffs 10:36 mbalmer I have a pgsql git branch locally, btw. 10:37 mbalmer big question NR 1: Is PostgreSQL a goal? 10:37 Brooke can you #info your git branch if it's amenable? 10:37 mbalmer If yes, then I can write up some best practices etc. documents 10:37 Brooke I think interoperability is always a goal 10:37 slef Brooke: mbalmer: or #link? 10:37 Brooke but I could be very wrong. 10:37 paul_p mbalmer, I don't think so, our goal should be to be database agnostic 10:37 mbalmer Brooke, what do you mean? putting it online? 10:38 Brooke putting it here if possible so folks that are curious can poke at it 10:38 slef mbalmer: yes, I think it should be, as a step towards full DB Independence 10:38 mbalmer paul_p, yes support PostgreSQL as one possibility, of course. 10:38 paul_p ok, we agree then. And in this case, it's something that must be included in the general process rewrite/refactoring 10:38 mbalmer but that means that people should stop committing stuff that is MySQL only… At least when a neutral form is easy to accomplish 10:39 paul_p so not a goal in itself, just a consequence of a "refactoring for more performance/stability/portability" 10:39 mbalmer that is why started a page with SQL idioms, MySQL form, PostgreSQL form, neutral form. 10:39 Brooke mm hmm 10:39 paul_p mbalmer, it's something for QA, if you can write guidelines, then that would be a good start ! 10:39 mbalmer A neutral form is not always possible, that is way that SQL layer is needed. 10:40 paul_p mbalmer, you could even write a test, like complaining if you detect CURDATE() somewhere ! 10:40 paul_p s/test/unit test/ 10:40 magnuse unit_tests++ 10:40 thd mbalmer: There is certainly some code which is not reducible to standard SQL. 10:40 mbalmer so you all agree that supporting PostgreSQL, in addition to MySQL, is a viable goal? 10:41 mbalmer thd, exactly. 10:41 paul_p mbalmer, yep 10:41 mbalmer but I think a way can be found to make such code work on MySQL _AND_ PostgreSQL by dynamically producing the SQL code in an optimal form for the respective database. 10:41 clrh at BibLibre, we have a hook "pre-cpommit" we use to filter bad practice before git commit, it helps 10:41 thd mbalmer: One very radical idea is to not use SQL at all for some problems which are not reducible to standard SQL. 10:42 clrh and we should have a list of good practices of what touse and what avoid 10:42 paul_p mbalmer, joubu is sitted just on my right, so you've already 2 members of the QA team that are OK to check SQL if they have directions to do so ! 10:42 magnuse clrh++ 10:42 thd mbalmer++ dynamically generated code 10:42 clrh what to use 10:42 mbalmer I can start such a document. I have very long experience in the database area. And I still think the Koha database is not too complex. 10:42 Brooke the goal is not to support Eurasia or Eastasia 10:42 Brooke the goal is to support all options possible 10:42 ColinC Surely the good practice is to factor out the sql to a db layer 10:42 clrh so mbalmer if you can share your best practices, it would be great 10:43 clrh ColinC: we agree too 10:43 mbalmer Brooke, I agree totally. 10:43 paul_p Other information: this afternoon, joubu & i have a meeting to list all inconsistencies in the database. We will write a wiki page. 10:43 Brooke kk just putting that out there 10:43 thd Brooke: the goal is to support Oceania. ;) 10:43 paul_p inconsistencies or strange things in DB (from a design point of view) 10:43 mbalmer If we can factor out the mysqlisms, and psqlisms, we can do the same for virtually *ANY* database 10:43 Brooke if you're gonna bother with compatibility might as well bother as much as poss 10:43 clrh clean layers, no circular dependencies, etc. but it is next subject ;) 10:43 Brooke thd: I have ate the taro and kumara ;P 10:44 Brooke it's not the *next* subject, but it's coming 10:44 mbalmer ok. I am fine with the outcome. Thanks! 10:44 Brooke #topic KohaCon2012 10:44 kf paul_p++ was writing database documentation today and I think some tables are no longer used 10:44 mbalmer how many people do usually attend a KohaCon? 10:44 slef OK. I think mle will scream if I'm wrong, but we're going to release the dates now. 10:44 * slef looks it up to make sure 10:45 magnuse ooh! 10:45 paul_p Brooke, can I say most of us (BibLibre) don't understand half of your sentences ? 10:45 paul_p I have ate the taro and kumara => ?? 10:45 Brooke paul_p that's true of everywhere 10:45 Brooke slef said support oceania 10:46 Brooke I ate well when there, bro 10:46 slef #info Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June 10:46 mbalmer where? 10:46 Brooke hooray for dates 10:46 paul_p slef++ 10:46 paul_p hooray for dates ! 10:47 slef #info That's in central Edinburgh 10:47 kf slef++ mle++ 10:47 mbalmer oh, cool! 10:47 slef #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:KohaCon12 10:47 magnuse slef++ mle++ 10:47 kf slef: will you send a mail to the list too? 10:48 jwagner slef, when will you be asking for presenters? 10:48 mle : ) 10:48 slef #info the wiki will be updated RSN (please help), the list emailed this week, some sort of sponsorship drive started this month and registrations taken 10:49 mbalmer slef, I could to a DB releated talk, about how to, what to, what not to, and so on. 10:49 slef jwagner: after we've contacted the volunteers 10:49 paul_p slef, do you plan to organize a trip like in NZ ? 10:50 slef We will give preference to things that appear on the Wishlist (and haven't been added by their presenter ;-) ) 10:50 slef paul_p: I intend to, but at this point it is only an intention. We will prioritise organising the conference. 10:51 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Wishlist_for_KohaCon12 10:51 paul_p slef, of course, but the trip Auckland=> Wellington was so great that I would be very happy to do London=>Edinburg as well ! 10:51 mbalmer norther scotland whisky trails ;) 10:51 asaurat a fishing session on Loch Ness 10:51 slef paul_p: ah, I was meaning the Friday off. I'd like to do a road trip too, if there is interest. 10:53 paul_p slef, you can consider there is an interest from BibLibre (for a roadtrip) 10:53 paul_p (+ for the friday off trip, of course) 10:54 slef paul_p: could someone from BL add a sign-up/interest list to the wiki, please? Just who to contact and how many seats? 10:54 Brooke #help now that we have dates and junk start adding things to the wiki 10:54 mle inital fishing enquiries suggest its expensive near edinburgh 10:55 asaurat I fish with my bare hands 10:55 Brooke asaurat++ 10:55 asaurat but well, a road trip is fine too ;) 10:55 slef #action add initial interest/sign-up lists for conference, hackfest, road trip and Friday social to the wiki Category:KohaCon12 10:55 ColinC guggling in Scotland 10:55 thd slef: What are your plans to fish for defeating the expense problem? 10:56 slef mle: any answer to thd? 10:56 slef thd: I'm leaving that to mle because he's in that city and I'm not. 10:57 AmitG heya slef 10:57 * mle googles guggling : ) 10:58 slef Any other questions, or tips, or whatever? 10:58 mle thd: we have some ideas, but notheing to announce as yet. : ) 10:58 thd mle: the overall expense of the venue is a most important question. 10:59 thd mle: The lower the cost the greater the attendance. 10:59 Brooke are we exhausted on Conference yet? 10:59 mle thd the expense of the venue is very very affordable 10:59 slef OK, hearing nothing more... 10:59 slef #info we look forward to welcoming you in Scotland's capital during the UN International Year of Co-operatives! 10:59 Brooke #topic Discuss the move from C4 to Koha namespace 11:00 mle thd: ++ 11:00 thd mle: Perhaps I was not taking your reference to 'fishing' literally enough. 11:00 Brooke galen up yet? 11:00 clrh as I said, we try to thing about koha design and layers 11:00 slef thd: yeah, some (jcamins?) suggested actual fishing for fish as an activity on the Friday. 11:01 paul_p s/thing/think/ 11:01 paul_p was it me that added this topic ? I think so. 11:02 thd What is in a layer? 11:02 thd or What layers are there / should there be? 11:02 Brooke looks like Chris N 11:02 clrh a layer in app is parts of code that answer to some goals 11:02 paul_p We spoke a lot of code rewritting, and we (BibLibre) agree it's needed. I think most of us agree on how it should be done (separate business logic/ database for example) 11:02 clrh thd we talk before about "data layer" 11:03 paul_p what we need now, I think, is a POC ! 11:03 clrh but there is to "front layer" and surely somthing between 11:03 kf paul_p: I think thre are some POC 11:03 kf patches already using a new Koha:: namespace 11:03 paul_p kf = where ? 11:03 paul_p kf that's not a POC ! 11:04 paul_p a POC is a more general plan on where we want to go 11:04 kf Ithought it was code showing how something works 11:04 magnuse bug 7359 11:04 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7359 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Begin migration to a new "Koha" namespace from the old "C4" namespace 11:04 clrh kf we talk about application design, we cant just drop some code lines 11:04 paul_p kf, yes it is. 11:04 kf paul_p: plans are different things 11:04 slef POC is Proof Of Concept 11:04 wahanui i already had it that way, slef. 11:04 paul_p kf, i'm not clear 11:05 paul_p we must have general directions about where we want to go, then a POC, then patches. 11:06 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Namespace_QA_Rules 11:06 paul_p I think most of the general directions are in our minds, but written nowhere. 11:06 paul_p magnuse, that's a good start, right 11:06 thd paul_p: I had thought that there was a list. Separating business logic from X always seems much more difficult in practise than in mere contemplation. 11:07 sekjal #info Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions, QAM foe 3.8 (sorry I'm late, alarmclock malfunction) 11:07 paul_p thd, we had 2 meetings (at BibLibre) about that. Joubu even has written a 1st POC that could be shared soon 11:07 kf paul_p: I think if we take too much time planning, we will not get anywhere - there are already patches implementing something that has been talked about a while ago - why not look at those? 11:07 paul_p hello sekjal 11:07 kf if there is disagreement about how things are done there it can be improved, can be used to test the new plan 11:08 paul_p kf, the patch attached to 7359 contains nothing 11:08 paul_p just + './Koha' => 'PERL_MODULE_DIR', 11:08 kf there are others 11:08 kf I think hourly loans 11:08 kf is one of them 11:08 paul_p kf, patch number ? 11:08 kf jared did something too for local cover images 11:09 magnuse 7359 was meant as an official starting point and center of discussion for starting moving things into Koha:: namespace, i think 11:09 clrh kf 5549? 11:09 kf agreed, so perhaps we can link the other bugs to that 11:09 magnuse jcamins chenged his patch so it does not use Koha:: after all 11:09 thd There is a fundamental problem that business logic creeps in or seems especially difficult to abstract just as many things for which we use the database cannot be abstracted to standard SQL alone. 11:09 kf yes, because there was disagreement about it 11:10 kf but perhaps we should encourage people working on new features to start using Koha:: 11:10 clrh I think we just don't want to copy C4 into Koha but improve thinks 11:10 magnuse kf: yup, or rather that it had not been officially discussed/decided 11:10 paul_p I repeat : we had 2 meetings (at BibLibre) about this refactoring. Joubu even has written a 1st POC that could be shared soon 11:10 clrh kf yep, I did'nt see it (for links) 11:10 magnuse clrh++ 11:10 Brooke so then 11:10 paul_p it's *much* more than hourly loan example. 11:10 Brooke if we're looking for official action 11:10 mbalmer clrh, maybe the move from C4 to Koha could be used to fix a few SQL things as well 11:10 Brooke do we vote now or do we vote later? 11:10 paul_p Brooke, later ! 11:10 clrh mbalmer: of course 11:11 kf bug 7387, bug 7284, bug 929 11:11 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7387 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , Add Template::Toolkit plugin to allow caching of includes 11:11 Brooke galen's guidelines made sense even to me 11:11 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7284 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jcamins, ASSIGNED , Authority matching algorithm improvements 11:11 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=929 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , See details of a budget 11:11 Waylon hello all! 11:11 ColinC without seeing the code we have nothing to go on 11:11 kf hm bug 7248 (typo sorry) 11:11 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7248 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Caching for services 11:11 paul_p Brooke, yes, but they're not enough 11:11 paul_p ColinC++ 11:11 Brooke surely that's enough for a start. 11:11 Waylon Ah.. a meeting currently in session? 11:11 Brooke yep 11:12 Waylon k. ill wait... watch. and might learn something. 11:12 clrh it is not just "putting a pm on a new namespace"... 11:12 paul_p Brooke, enough for investigating more. But WHAT do we put in this new namespace ! 11:12 paul_p if we want to split business & data logic, for example, we need to define their namespace as well ! 11:13 clrh it is not just "putting a pm on a new namespace", and I think it should contains data layer problematics too - we need a little bit of time to think about id 11:13 clrh it 11:13 Brooke can you guys add your reservations to the bug then? Because I'm not seeing those from here. 11:14 kf clrh: that's not like it was done I think 11:14 mbalmer I will pbly use two modules/namesspaces, SQL and DB, should they be within Koha or outside? Maybe SQL, which is Koha agnostic, outside? 11:14 sekjal idea for Koha:: namespace: two layers of .pm, Data access and Transactional. Only Data access layer talks to DB, and Transactions talk to Data access layer 11:14 magnuse loose_consensus_and_running_code++ 11:15 magnuse if we spend too much time discussing what to do we might never get around to doing anything... 11:15 kf yes 11:15 Brooke magnus++ 11:15 paul_p sekjal, agreed ! and that's where/why we need a more detailled proposition ! 11:15 thd clrh: The difficulty of abstraction is partly that what is returned by the data layer can improperly define the business logic. I had written a meta-bug report about this problem. 11:15 kf magnuse++ 11:15 Waylon hmm... so isolating db specific code, so one can develop db access for other databases without too much hassle eh? 11:15 kf I think we could take existing work as a start 11:15 kf people can make suggestions looking at this code - signingoff/qaing it 11:15 clrh thd what number please? 11:16 Brooke http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7248 11:16 huginn 04Bug 7248: enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Caching for services 11:16 thd clrh: checking ... 11:16 mbalmer I suggest a SQL module which produces "optimal" SQL for a specific DB for operations that can not be expressed in standard SQL. Should that be in Koha or outside? I am for outside. 11:16 sekjal writing/migrating the Data Access layer should involve, I think, looking at some of the data structures we currently have in our DB, and what we can do to change/improve them 11:16 sekjal like primary keys for reserves, etc 11:17 thd clrh: http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3092 11:17 huginn 04Bug 3092: normal, P1 - high, ---, frederic, NEW , Data values storage and use 100 bug meta-bug 11:17 ColinC there was some discussion of using a standard orm module earlier 11:18 mbalmer I think using SQL is not a mistake. 11:18 clrh The idea is not to write things from scratch but having best practice to refactor code little by little in a new workspace I think 11:18 mbalmer clrh++ 11:18 magnuse clrh: agreed 11:18 kf clrh: agreed 11:18 sekjal clrh: much more practical that way 11:18 clrh so we will continue how work 11:18 clrh s/how/our 11:19 mbalmer I will add my two modules, they can later be moved into Koha namespace, if it makes sense. 11:19 clrh to give you asap some concrete things to talk about 11:19 magnuse this is starting to sound like the topic for a separate meeting? 11:19 thd clrh++ the proposed remedy I have at the end of that meta-bug is fixing the problem tiny piece by piece in an isolated manner so that nothing breaks. 11:19 clrh magnuse: I think yes 11:19 ColinC I would see most of the current big C4 modules as candidate for refactoring into the new name space and code slowly migrating to them 11:19 clrh thd: did you find the reference? 11:19 clrh o I didnt see it! 11:19 clrh thx 11:20 Brooke that and not everything need take place in a meeting 11:20 paul_p Brooke++ 11:20 clrh agreed Brooke :) 11:20 Brooke did we secretly move on to Coding Guidelines while talking about C4? 11:21 Brooke #topic Coding Guidelines 11:21 magnuse Brooke: don't think so ;-) 11:21 thd clrh: However, paul_p wrote about rewriting code which is an opportunity to avoid having features which function as poorly before rewriting as after. 11:21 mbalmer - Try to avoid SQL code that works only on a particular database. 11:21 mbalmer - Refactor existing SQL code to work on any database ;) 11:22 mbalmer that would be two guidelines. 11:22 mbalmer plus: 11:22 mbalmer - if in doubt, ask. 11:23 thd Refactoring and rewriting are not the same. rangi has stated this many times but had given up reminding and may be asleep now. 11:23 Brooke fool! Rangi never sleeps :P 11:24 mbalmer thd, I agree. I meant rather rewrite or adapt, btw 11:24 Brooke you guys aren't talkative so 11:24 Brooke #topic GBSD 11:24 Brooke hey there's one coming up 11:25 mbalmer there's bugs? 11:25 Brooke it's Friday, or possibly Saturday depending on where you are 11:25 Brooke but you can always cheat and pretend you live someplace else. :D 11:25 Brooke http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/2012-01-06_Global_bug_squashing_day 11:25 magnuse nah, it's friday, in whatever timezone you happen to be in 11:26 Brooke Friday? 11:26 wahanui Friday is It's Friday, Friday Gotta get down on Friday 11:27 Brooke #topic Actions from Last Meeting 11:27 thd Brooke: one injection about the hastily left issue of coding practise? 11:27 Brooke the only stuff I see looks to be KohaCon 2013 11:27 Brooke any new stuff there? 11:27 Brooke thd: do you have a specific link to summat for something I've already moved past? 11:27 Brooke is it really, really pressing? 11:28 magnuse i think maybe kf had things to say about coding guidelines too? 11:28 thd Brooke: We had in the past suggested being clear in commits about ... 11:28 magnuse #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Coding_Guidelines 11:28 mbalmer coding guidelines topic still open? 11:28 Brooke #topic Coding Guidelines *again* 11:28 thd fixing Perl coding style. 11:29 Brooke if we keep skipping back to stuff, these meetings are gonna get even longer. #justsayin. 11:29 slef did the "how to run tests" get updated? I'm elsewhere in the wiki 11:29 mbalmer I'd love of lines would not be longer than 80 characters and indents be tabs with 8 character width. 11:29 kf sorry, phone call 11:29 mbalmer s/of/if/ 11:30 thd We should also be clear in commits between refactoring and rewriting where rewriting has altered functionality. 11:30 magnuse we already decided on http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Perltidy 11:30 mbalmer a bit like http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=style&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8.2-RELEASE&arch=default&format=html 11:30 asaurat must a patch correct only what the bug title implies, or should we add other enhancements when possi 11:30 paul_p mbalmer, we already have decided to use 4 spaces. 11:30 mbalmer ok. 11:30 thd The test for refactoring is that the same bugs are implemented in a different manner. 11:31 ColinC bugs/behaviour 11:31 thd Rewriting changes bugs fixes and/or adds new ones. 11:32 Brooke this is failing my mental tests for does it belong in a meeting, btw 11:32 Brooke I think I have to do those up 11:32 Brooke and vote on em at some point 11:32 thd Brooke: right 11:32 magnuse i think the question now was how much perltidy'ing should we be doing? 11:33 magnuse if we fix some bug, should we perltidy just the one line we touched, a block, a whole function? 11:33 thd magnuse: There was an unanswered question which paul_p posed about when to tidy? 11:33 Brooke magnuse I think the old consensus was new stuff pretty darn tidy, old stuff we'd get to eventually. 11:33 thd paul_p are you still here? 11:33 paul_p thd, yep. 11:34 magnuse so if a patch is tidying lines that were not otherwise changed, should it be failed qa? 11:34 ColinC If you tidy more than is chamged it gets hardr to see what the change was in the history 11:34 paul_p the problem is git blame. 11:34 magnuse yup 11:34 clrh something is to dig about "git blame -w" 11:34 thd paul_p: Do you remember that you had wanted to discuss when to tidy during KohaCon 2011 dev week? 11:35 ColinC but use taste i.e. a line before or after may get tidied to make the indent obvious 11:35 asaurat yep, of course 11:35 mbalmer why not tidying a file before fixing a bug? aka fix bugs in previously tidyied files? 11:35 magnuse "-w Ignore whitespace when comparing the parent's version and the child's to find where the lines came from." cool! 11:35 paul_p mbalmer, not in the same patch as the fix iteself ! 11:35 mbalmer so these tidy ups get separate commits 11:36 paul_p (otherwise, QAing is almost impossible, you get 1000 lines changed !) 11:36 paul_p yep, in separate commits. 11:36 * kf reads back now 11:36 mbalmer paul_p, that is what I meant. one patch to tidy up, no function changes, a separate one for the actual fix 11:36 ColinC you lose history if you tidy the file but it may be a good way to work on it just dont commit the whole tidied file 11:36 magnuse there's also git diff to think about 11:36 paul_p but a perltidy will result in git blame being wrong. 11:36 Brooke do we care if the code is nicer? 11:37 paul_p I think we must choose our poison ! 11:37 mbalmer ColinC, why loose history? the tyding up becomes part of the history, or do I miss sth? 11:37 jwagner Brooke, I think we definitely do care -- we frequently need to see when a particular change came in and who did it 11:37 mbalmer Brooke, nicer code is easier to maintain, and means less errors 11:37 paul_p either decide to perltidy everything, and loose history, or keep history and stop complaining about tidy 11:37 ColinC yes we do care because it becomes harder to see what introduced some behaviour 11:37 thd Brooke: It is not merely about having prettier code. Readability and consistency helps avoid bugs. 11:37 paul_p I don't see another option ! 11:37 slef mbalmer: maybe not lose history, but it can obscure it. 11:38 mbalmer I don't understand why do we loos the history? 11:38 mbalmer it's just an additional commit, right? 11:38 paul_p is our goal to keep history clear (you're right slef) or have something more readable ? 11:38 Brooke but that's not what was decided 11:38 Brooke and I don't see a reason to deviate from new code meeting new standards 11:38 kf mbalmer: it will not be clear who wrote the line 11:38 paul_p mbalmer, right. but git blame will say the perltidy author is to blame for almost everything 11:38 sekjal if we keep our tidy commits and our functionality commits distinct 11:38 kf mbalmer: only who last changed it 11:38 Brooke and old code would eventually phase itself out 11:38 ColinC paul_p in practice to compromise between the two 11:38 paul_p ColinC, how ? 11:38 sekjal and the commit message is "Tidying code" or the like 11:39 mbalmer paul_p, a now I see the issue. 11:39 sekjal we can easily skip over that patch in a git log, and look for the next functionality-based patch, when checking history 11:39 paul_p I think so. 11:39 slef ok, does anyone remember if git blame can drill down into history, or shall I test now? 11:39 kf I think one suggestion was tidying the parts where your bug fix is 11:39 kf perhaps we could say - tidy the whole code block in that case? 11:39 paul_p does it mean we would/should/could go for a big perltidy one day ? 11:40 kf not sure that's practical 11:40 Brooke do we have anything to discuss that we didn't already agree upon two months ago? 11:40 mbalmer is git blam so holy? I mean the history is still there... 11:40 magnuse what's a block of code? 11:40 Brooke is there anything new here? 11:40 paul_p kf, you're right ! having a part tidied and a part not tidied is a nightmare very soon ! 11:40 kf Brooke: the problem is, that it's not clear now - so people don't know what to do, we should clarify 11:40 thd Brooke: This issue was left unresolved two months ago. 11:40 paul_p s/is/will be/ 11:40 thd Brooke: Tidy was resolved but not the issue about the rate of use. 11:40 kf paul_p: didn't mean the whole file - not sure 11:40 mbalmer I am all for clean, consisten code. 11:41 ColinC if there was to be a big tidy choose your moment i.e. as part of the 3.8 release 11:41 Brooke http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_Meeting,_5_October_2011 11:41 mbalmer consistent, even. 11:41 paul_p mbalmer, everybody is for that ;-) 11:41 sekjal git blame is handy, but it's just one tool in our debugging arsenal 11:41 kf ColinC: that might be reasonable 11:41 kf similar to the template toolkit switch 11:41 magnuse +1 11:41 paul_p I agree for git blame is one tool ! 11:41 mbalmer paul_p, hard to believe, because Perl code will never be nice ;) (scnr) 11:41 paul_p ColinC++ 11:41 kf if we do a global thing, we can check out the branch, but we should decide about it 11:42 paul_p mbalmer is a troller !!! 11:42 slef mbalmer: how do you find the history of a line otherwise? 11:42 paul_p I like ColinC idea of a big perltidy for 3.8 11:42 mbalmer well at least I went through the pain of learning the language the last weeks, paul_p ;) 11:42 slef mbalmer: reading all diffs for a file is not fun IMO. 11:43 mbalmer slef, I agree. But you would have to do that, then 11:43 mbalmer afaict. 11:43 mbalmer maybe git blame is to blame for not being able to go back further in the history of a file 11:43 thd Brooke: Clarifying: we voted to use Perl standard for tidy but deferred how to approach the issue of when to tidy code which is not being modified otherwise. 11:44 slef paul_p: yes, a perltidy Day would make things a bit easier (if git blame on master is uninformative, run git blame on pre-perltidy-day tag). 11:44 paul_p the more I think of it the more I like the idea of a bit perltidy in 3.8 ! 11:44 slef mbalmer: I'm sure they'd welcome patches to git-blame. 11:44 Brooke 12:09:26 <kf> I hve no strong opinion about the coding thing - make it consistent and choose one, change code not at once but bit by bit perhaps 11:44 Brooke 12:09:37 <paul_p_> kf++ 11:44 clrh I agree paul_p 11:44 Brooke 12:09:43 <wizzyrea> kf++ 11:44 Brooke 12:09:47 <ColinC> kf+ 11:44 Brooke 12:09:51 <slef> mtj: git format-patch -o .. 'HEAD^' 11:44 Brooke 12:09:57 <wizzyrea> (and publish it somewhere) 11:44 Brooke 12:09:58 <thd> kf++ 11:44 Brooke I really bloody hate talking things over that are minutia twice. 11:44 sekjal putting it off until the end of this release cycle would make coding 3.8 easier 11:45 paul_p sekjal, ??? 11:45 paul_p why is it easier ? 11:45 magnuse Brooke: it's not minutia imho, it's a question of what patches to fail qa... 11:45 thd Brooke: Bit by bit had seemed to be the previous consensus but paul_p had raised problems with that approach on the mailing list. 11:46 Brooke fine 11:46 Brooke we vote 11:46 clrh magnuse: rebase + perltidy does not seems really big ;) 11:46 paul_p OK, i'll send a mail to koha-devel with this proposition. 11:46 Brooke instead of talking about voting 11:46 clrh ok Brooke 11:46 paul_p OK for voting Brooke ! 11:46 Brooke so the proposal is we handle things as we code ensuring that they're in line with perl tidy and other suggestions with the coding guidelines 11:46 Brooke +1 for little by little. 11:46 ColinC +1 11:46 kf clrh: will give conflicts perhaps? patches in the list now changing same files and so on? not sure 11:46 paul_p -1 (i'm for big perltidy day) 11:47 mbalmer there is one technical problem, however: 11:47 clrh -1 (i'm for big perltidy day) 11:47 magnuse +1 for bit by bit 11:47 kf +1 for little by littel - will not hurt anything now 11:47 sekjal paul_p: lets us differ the issue, focus on functionality for the next few months, then we can run scripts to do mass clean up after 11:47 mbalmer some of the better editors cut whitespace off the line endings, and that leads to whitespace patches when you edit a file. 11:47 sekjal maybe not any easier 11:47 thd -1 big perltidy day timed with release cycle if possible 11:47 sekjal seemed that way to my pre-coffee brain 11:47 * sekjal drinks a cup now 11:48 paul_p sekjal, that's also an option. 11:48 kf little by little for me means = fix things where you fix your bug 11:48 kf not the whole file, the lines you are working on 11:48 magnuse kf++ 11:48 Brooke I agree with that kf 11:48 paul_p kf, NO NO NO ! 11:48 ColinC kf++ 11:48 mbalmer what if the editor clears up whitespace? 11:48 paul_p that will be unreadable quickly ! 11:48 slef git log --pretty=oneline -S'string to search for' # may help with seeing behind a perltidy 11:48 mbalmer paul_p++ 11:49 kf paul_p: I think for most things it will work quite ok - we already have it all mixed up 11:49 thd My position for a big tidy day is not against using tidy when you modify a file as a separately labelled patch. 11:49 clrh there is two little by little kf be carefull 11:49 kf can't get more unreadable, only moving into one direction now instead of a lto of directions 11:49 Brooke finish actual voting 11:49 Brooke :P 11:49 mbalmer err, so my editor question remains unanswered? 11:50 Joubu -1 11:50 julian_m -1 11:50 matts -1 too 11:50 kf perhaps I am misunderstood... I wanted to say write new things using perltidy, fix old when you work on that code, but not outside of the scope of your bug - like fixing the whole file? 11:51 kf because for now that will not hurt and we can still do a global day later with a release if that's agreed on 11:51 paul_p kf, i'm against this idea too ;-) 11:51 mbalmer what can you do if your editor does clean up whitespace when saving the file? 11:51 thd mbalmer: What do you mean by 'editor'? Who or what is the 'editor'? 11:51 mbalmer text editor. 11:51 kf mbalmer: deactivate it 11:51 Brooke so it looks like little by little now fails. 11:51 mbalmer kf, for sure not. 11:51 paul_p kf, if you add a loop outside of existing code, you'll get a foreach that is perltidied & indented, and inside the loop, you may have a different indentation. unreadable quickly ! 11:51 Brooke come up with an alternative and propose it, Paul. 11:51 thd Brooke: We need to clarify the issue. 11:52 mbalmer I am not only working on Koha, and otherwise whitespace at line endings is very much frowned upon 11:52 paul_p Brooke, big perltidy day on 3.8 release 11:52 sekjal git blame and git diff have "ignore whitespace" flags 11:52 kf I think in that case perhaps have a follow up doing the perltidy for that part? 11:52 sekjal so if it's just whitespace, we're fine 11:52 mbalmer sekjal, ok, that settles it, thanks. 11:52 paul_p sekjal, yep, but perltidy is also a matter of where to put {} and not only whitepsaces 11:52 sekjal ah 11:52 mbalmer it's only WS at line ends, *NOT* perltidy or so. text structure gets not changed. 11:52 thd Brooke: Did we just vote never to use tidy for old files until tidy day or when modifying otherwise and a big tidy day? 11:52 Brooke vote: Big perltidyday on 3.8 release 11:53 paul_p +1 (already said ;-) ) 11:53 mbalmer +1 11:53 Brooke #info Voting on perltidy 11:53 clrh +1 11:53 thd +1 11:53 Joubu =1 11:53 Joubu +1 11:53 Waylon +1 11:53 Brooke NO EQUALS! RAWR 11:53 julian_m +1 11:54 sekjal 0 11:54 kf 0 11:54 jwagner 0 11:54 ColinC 0 RM's prerogative tho 11:54 paul_p 1PM here, my stomash is asking for some food ;-) 11:54 slef 0 11:54 thd paul_p: Did we just vote never to use tidy for old files until big tidy day or when otherwise modifying a file and also a big tidy day? 11:55 sekjal we need to clearly lay out the pros and cons for this change 11:55 sekjal incremental vs. all-at-once 11:55 mbalmer paul_p, same TZ here, same problem, too ;) 11:55 thd sekjal: I agree that the vote was a little hasty 11:56 kf perhaps something to think about for the global change: you can't compare files between different versions then and patches will not apply backwards 11:56 paul_p yes, but many of us are hungry ;-) 11:56 sekjal if perltidy is going to give us more than just whitespace changes on single lines 11:56 sekjal then we're not going to be able to use a lot of our git tools effectively anymore 11:56 sekjal git diff and git blame, for one 11:56 Brooke thd we voted to have a big perltidy day on 3.8 release 11:56 kf yes 11:56 kf but perhaps we need to think more about it 11:56 kf to see all pro and cons 11:56 kf that have not been brought up here 11:56 sekjal would the tidy be backported to 3.6.x? 11:57 thd sekjal: Brooke was anxious to vote on something rather than rediscuss the old topic :) 11:57 thd sekjal++ 11:57 kf sekjal: I think it does more, breaking lines differently 11:57 sekjal my understanding of perltidy is insufficient for me to make an informed choice 11:58 kf same here 11:58 paul_p OK, let's say = i send a mail to koha-devel to say "we propose the option of a big perltidy day, let's argue the cons of this idea if there are" 11:58 asaurat same for me, never used it 11:58 mbalmer so maybe we should revert that vote? and give us a bit more time? 11:58 thd kf: Would applying tidy to the old release solve the problem for patching old versions? 11:58 mbalmer paul_p, sane idea. 11:58 kf thd: not sure - but I think we should find out before doing something drastic 11:58 jwagner paul_p, +1 11:58 Brooke why is this in meeting and not on devel? 11:59 kf ok 11:59 kf so for now 11:59 ColinC kf: but the patches in the in queue will be made against old formatted code 11:59 jwagner Because meetings are the place where we're supposed to discuss things of concern to the project? 11:59 sekjal Brooke: heated discussions are more fun in realtime? 11:59 thd Brooke: It was on the koha-devel list, however, we have gone rather quickly here. 11:59 thd sekjal++ :) 12:00 Brooke jwagner: this is relevant in general, not in minutia. 12:00 mbalmer I have to leave now, next meeting, grr, so cul. and whatever you still vote here: I am all for it! ttyl! 12:00 Brooke there's no reason to hash minutia at a meeting v over the listserv. 12:00 thd Brooke: The issue had been raised on koha-devel and then forgotten over the course of KohaCon. 12:01 paul_p Brooke, maybe we should go forward ? i'm not sure we will find a consensus. This is a trolling topic... 12:01 Brooke I would say 12:01 thd paul_p: Did we just vote never to use tidy for old files until big tidy day or when otherwise modifying a file and also a big tidy day? 12:01 Brooke keep hashing it out over devel 12:01 Brooke until you have something that you can vote a simple yes or no to 12:01 Brooke even if it's a little yes or no 12:01 Brooke as in 4 spaces or 8 12:01 Brooke and THEN bring that to the meeting 12:01 Brooke else 12:02 Brooke we have 20 people talking about 20 different pet to dos 12:02 Brooke and we have another glorious 2 hour meeting. 12:02 paul_p thd, I don't see how we can practically use a small bit by small bit. 12:02 thd Brooke: 4 spaces or 8 is resolved unless someone really wants to raise the issue again. 12:02 Brooke with no actual progress 12:02 Brooke thd it was an example of an actionable item. 12:02 paul_p thd, no, NOONE want to raise the issue. 12:02 ColinC thd: please no 12:02 paul_p or i'll kick him ! 12:02 * paul_p get his gun... 12:02 thd paul_p: yes no one of course :) 12:03 paul_p ;-) 12:03 kf paul_p: now you scareme 12:03 sekjal if anyone was going to be pulling iron, I thought it would be one of the Yanks 12:03 thd paul_p: So we just voted to only tidy new files until big tidy day? 12:03 Brooke paul, you need to get your sabre or foil, and then we can settle this like men. :P 12:03 paul_p thd, I would say yes. 12:04 kf seems so 12:04 Brooke we didn't but I will pretend that we did :P 12:04 kf ok for me 12:04 kf and big day still to be decided 12:04 Brooke thought big day was timed with the 3.8 release, but we'll leave that to paul and later. 12:05 paul_p Brooke, agreed. 12:05 Brooke so 12:05 thd paul_p: Ok, so we can continue to discuss the issue of applying tidied patches to the possibly untidied current release on the mailing list. 12:05 Brooke #topic Actions from December 12:05 Brooke once again the only thing I see there is KohaCon 2013 12:05 Brooke any new stuff on that? 12:06 slef did the "how to run tests" get updated? I'm elsewhere in the wiki 12:07 slef nothing new from me on KohaCon 2013. All replies were on-list. 12:08 Brooke #topic Miscellaneous 12:08 Brooke I wanted to give a shout out for the Koha Academy project 12:08 Brooke we're attempting to get a proper distance education framework in place 12:08 Brooke so if you're good at constructing a syllabus or other such things 12:08 Brooke please contact kmkale 12:08 slef #link http://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2011-December/031479.html 12:09 sekjal I've got an announcement that the Koha community may find relevant 12:09 Brooke just like if you volunteered to teach different stuff at the last KohaCon, we will prolly be conning you into volunteering :) 12:09 slef actually not sure all replies were on-list. I'll find them and put them to a page. 12:09 Brooke go for it sekjal :) 12:09 Brooke and thanks slef. 12:10 sekjal at the end of this month, I'll be leaving ByWater Solutions to work at the library at the University of Massachusetts 12:10 sekjal I will continue to be part of the Koha community 12:11 sekjal but, as UMass is not a Koha institution, Koha will no longer be my primary workday focus 12:11 sekjal I intend to finish out my term as QAM, should the community approve 12:11 thd sekjal: Is UMass considering working on Koha at any future point? 12:11 jwagner sekjal, good luck with the new job! 12:12 thd s/working on/using/ 12:12 paul_p sad news. (side effect: you'll miss the European hackfest) 12:12 sekjal thd: they're part of a 5 college consortium, so it will take a lot of effort to move them, but I will apply what pressure I can 12:12 slef sekjal: sorry to hear that, yes please and good luck with the new work 12:12 kf good like sekjal 12:13 kf hm good luck... 12:13 paul_p about the QAM role, my position is: if you can promize /think you'll be able to spend something like 8 hours a week on QA things, then go for it. Otherwise, we should ask for another volunteer 12:14 sekjal I think that, yes, I will be able to dedicate about that much personal time to the job 12:14 slef next item? 12:14 Brooke UMass is a great place to work, so look forward to it :) 12:14 kf sekjal++ 12:15 sekjal thankfully, I'm not alone on the QA team this term, so I won't act as a bottleneck for everything 12:15 paul_p so i'm OK with this idea 12:15 thd sekjal++ 12:15 Brooke hang on lemme post some stuff I said in whisper to main 12:15 Brooke Brooke: yeah I need to really crystalise what I have in mind for things 12:15 Brooke [07:10am] Brooke: the meetings traditionally were the place to vote 12:15 Brooke [07:10am] Brooke: however, we've done things like KohaCon outside the meeting 12:15 Brooke [07:10am] Brooke: so 12:15 Brooke [07:10am] Brooke: we need to figure out what the ultimate forum is 12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: and we also need to streamline how topics are mentioned 12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: I'm guessing folks would prefer an hour a meeting 12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: to like 2 and a half. 12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: it's possible if we do more work in small groups or hash things out over the list or irc much better 12:15 Brooke [07:11am] Brooke: and then bring something that can have a yes or no vote to the meeting 12:15 Brooke [07:12am] Brooke: or be put into a survey and sent to the list 12:15 Brooke [07:12am] Brooke: it seems to me that things that are overarching and affect the spirit of the project 12:15 Brooke [07:12am] Brooke: are always going to lend themselves to IRC 12:15 Brooke [07:12am] Brooke: where smallish things make sense for a ballot. 12:16 slef I would suggest timed agenda items again. 12:16 paul_p timed++ 12:16 paul_p (clrh always uses timebox !) 12:16 slef If the chair doesn't mind having permission to break our legs^Wdiscussions to keep to time? 12:17 Brooke it depends 12:17 Brooke chairing is delightfully dynamic 12:17 paul_p i'm for it ! 12:17 Brooke I tend to impose a time limit if I think summat is gonna be controversial AND beaten to death.. 12:17 paul_p ++ 12:17 Brooke I'll keep thinking on things 12:18 slef traditionally (hah, that old trick!), anyone in a meeting can call for the vote to be held or to move on to the next item... but times on the agenda reduces the surprise for people who don't know such things. 12:18 thd I think that things should take as long as they take but encouragement should be given to having good discussions outside the monthly meeting in our various fora. 12:18 paul_p agreed (and TZ things improve this need) 12:19 thd I think that social pressure such as are we taking too long here is a better solution than strict timing. 12:19 slef thd: sure. Get a room/workgroup/submeeting is also a valid request, usually combined with a vote or budge. 12:20 slef I think that social pressure is insufficient here. You can't see people fidget on IRC. 12:20 thd We could time an are we taking too long here prompt with the possibility that the answer is no. 12:20 Brooke meh 12:20 Brooke anyway 12:20 Brooke #topic Time and Date of next meeting 12:21 Brooke Feb 1 or Feb 8? 12:21 slef 8 Feb? 12:21 Brooke fine with me 12:21 * slef opens the bidding 12:22 Brooke any heavy objections to Feb 8? 12:22 thd +1 12:22 thd +1 8th Feb. 12:22 asaurat no objection 12:22 ColinC either ok 12:22 slef Is it 0200 UTC? 12:22 paul_p OK for me 12:22 Brooke 2 utc yes 12:23 paul_p 3AM for me... wonderfull meeting time ;-) 12:23 Brooke 10 > 2 > 18 is the cycle. 12:23 Brooke paul: guess what time it is in NZ right now :P 12:23 slef 1 hour meeting aim? 12:24 Brooke not nec 12:24 Brooke but I'm gonna say think about what you want to say given the agenda before hand 12:24 Brooke and if it's not on the agenda, stick it there. 12:24 Brooke so vote 12:24 Brooke 8 February 2 UTC 12:25 slef +1 12:25 jwagner +1 12:25 ColinC +1 12:26 paul_p +1 12:26 thd =1 12:26 thd +1 12:27 sekjal +! 12:28 Brooke #info next meeting is 8 Feb 0200 UTC 12:28 Brooke #endmeeting 12:28 huginn Meeting ended Wed Jan 4 12:28:28 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 12:28 huginn Minutes: http://librarypolice.com/koha-meetings/2012/koha.2012-01-04-10.00.html 12:28 huginn Minutes (text): http://librarypolice.com/koha-meetings/2012/koha.2012-01-04-10.00.txt 12:28 huginn Log: http://librarypolice.com/koha-meetings/2012/koha.2012-01-04-10.00.log.html 12:29 Waylon okay.. meeting done? i can ask a completely irrelevant question? 12:31 slef go for it 12:31 slef wahanui: KohaCon12? 12:31 wahanui i haven't a clue, slef 12:32 slef wahanui: KohaCon12 is http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:KohaCon12 12:32 wahanui OK, slef. 12:32 Waylon okay. new system administrator for mandumah.com... has proposed Amazon cloud computing. How does it work? 12:32 slef and I just updated that with sign-up lists for those who want to express interest pre-registration 12:33 slef Waylon: nobody knows but search wiki or kohacon10 papers for how to get Koha running on it. 12:33 slef (it was presented at kohacon10 hackfest I know) 12:33 Waylon sounds like a headache.. 12:33 slef benefits are scalability AIUI 12:34 slef and possibly resilience but Amazon don't have an unblemished record on that 12:34 Waylon cause right now, we have two replicaiton paths. one going from office to servers.. the other, going between the servers., not including the office. 12:34 slef and I doubt Koha is written to take advantage of all Amazon's resilience features 12:35 slef but I could be wrong. I have strange feelings towards Amazon so I don't think I'm using Koha there at all. 12:36 thd Amazon should be regarded with extreme mistrust for non-technical reasons. 12:37 Waylon please explain, thd. 12:37 ColinC And look at their technical stuff I found I knew less after I read it 12:37 thd Amazon has a very bad habit of re-interpreting or changing there terms of use for many of there services which may disallow what had been common use in the past. 12:38 Waylon we are a digital library archive, a db of 3 gb.. and storage requirements of something like 100 gb or more for pdf files. 12:40 thd Waylon: The problem to which I am referring is mostly a problem for obtaining bibliographic data from Amazon but what Amazon has most recently named Amazon Web Services should be regarded with suspicion. 12:40 Waylon please continue. 12:42 thd Waylon: Relying exclusively upon non-free software or non-free data sources is a hazard which leaves a vulnerability to any service discontinuity. 12:44 thd Waylon: If you are wholly dependent upon one company for something critical, you are merely waiting for a big problem if there is a sudden change of policy, service, or price from that company. 12:45 Waylon modifying koha to work with amazon instances, then suddenly, they cannot be run on them... would be difficult to retool back to normal OS, your saying? 12:46 thd Waylon: However, I have looked for free software systems offering the same level of service as Amazon Web Services and not found a comparable level of flexibility and control for significant dynamically changing use. 12:47 thd Waylon: Using anything is fine as long as you can change to something else relatively easily if necessary. 12:47 * Waylon nods. "Would of thought the two vm's on two bare metal boxes would of been sufficient. but the sysadmin sounds like hes tooling up for massive expansion. 12:48 thd Waylon: The example of Wikileaks brief use of Amazon Web Services should be instructive even if that may be a somewhat special case. 12:51 Brooke hey nicole :) 12:51 thd Waylon: My understanding is that the pricing of Amazon only works favourably in comparison to simpler and less dynamically changeable alternatives when the use of the service has large unpredictable variable use patterns. 12:52 thd s/Amazon/AWS/ 12:55 thd Waylon: The issue about when AWS is occasionally presented on various web forums with real numbers for various scenarios in which AWS often loses. 12:55 thd s/when/when to use/ 12:56 Waylon i guess the first step to understanding all this, is understanding what the sysadmin actually means. 12:57 nengard OMG it's freezying here!!! 12:57 nengard @wunder 19030 12:57 huginn nengard: The current temperature in Highland Park, Levittown, Pennsylvania is -9.9�C (7:53 AM EST on January 04, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 53%. Dew Point: -18.0�C. Windchill: -15.0�C. Pressure: 30.39 in 1029.0 hPa (Rising). 12:57 nengard :( 12:57 nengard hiya Brooke 12:57 thd Waylon: Your sysadmin may have more things in mind than merely library automation systems. 12:57 nengard and al 12:58 nengard and all! 12:58 Waylon there isn't any info on amazon, on the koha wiki 12:59 thd Waylon: The overall use may favour AWS for some price or convenience factor. 13:00 thd Waylon: Koha can be configured to use Amazon for cover images and reviews in the display of bibliographic records. 13:02 jcamins Was there any conclusion about the Koha namespace? 13:02 * jcamins skimmed the minutes, and didn't see any consensus. 13:03 thd Waylon: In my extreme overwork on non-Koha stuff I have neglected code which I have been given to use Amazon as part of an automation in cataloguing. 13:03 thd jcamins: What sort of consensus would you like? 13:03 jcamins (P.S. sorry about missing the meeting... I completely forgot, thanks to buying an apartment:) 13:03 * Waylon nods. 13:03 jcamins thd: are we changing to the Koha namespace? 13:03 nengard Do we have a date for kohacon12 yet? 13:04 jcamins Or are we going to just talk about it for another five years and pollute C4 further? 13:04 Waylon well.. we know that koha can work on EC2's... so sayith liblime... but how that works.. no idea. 13:04 jcamins Waylon: Koha works great on EC2. 13:04 Waylon how? 13:04 * jcamins runs Koha on EC2. 13:04 Waylon hwo does the seperate instances communicate? 13:05 thd jcamins: The consensus was that there is disagreement over the approach taken in an old patch for abstraction and BibLibre are preparing a proof of concept. 13:05 jcamins Waylon: the same way they would with any other divided system. 13:05 jcamins thd: ah. Thanks. 13:05 thd jcamins: Discussion on the mailing list. 13:06 jcamins thd: Thanks. 13:06 thd jcamins: The important result from the meeting is to encourage more discussion on the mailing list and at all hours on IRC to allow meetings to be run more quickly with as many participants as we have now. 13:06 thd nengard: Yes we have dates. 13:07 nengard good! what are they? 13:07 * thd checks some logs 13:07 Brooke KohaCon2012? 13:07 Brooke info Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June 13:07 Brooke wahanui is so much more useless than zoia. 13:08 Waylon mysql replication relies on a max number of nodes due to insert interval and offset. how does that work with EC2? 13:08 tcohen hi #koha 13:08 nengard thanks Brooke 13:08 Brooke wahanui: KohaCon2012? 13:08 wahanui brooke: i don't know 13:09 Brooke useless. 13:09 Brooke wahanui: KohaCon2012 is Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June 13:09 wahanui OK, Brooke. 13:09 Brooke KohaCon2012? 13:09 wahanui rumour has it KohaCon2012 is Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June 13:09 jcamins Waylon: oh, I haven't been running anything large enough to have more than a master/slave setup with MySQL. 13:10 jcamins Waylon: I don't believe LLEK does anything more complex, either. 13:10 Waylon so, youve only had two nodes, in circular replication? 13:10 jcamins No, one read-write master, one read-only slave. 13:11 jcamins Waylon: I work with small, highly-specialized collections. 13:11 thd jcamins: What is the purpose of the read only slave? 13:11 Waylon hmm? so how does a slave instance modify the database? 13:11 jcamins Waylon: it doesn't modify the database. 13:11 jcamins thd: hot backup. 13:12 Waylon hot backup? How come you don't use innodb and singletransaction dump instead? 13:12 Waylon ooooo 13:12 Waylon sorry 13:12 Waylon hot meaning running. 13:12 Waylon failsafe. 13:13 thd jcamins: I hope that you also do proper cold backups and not merely replication. 13:13 Waylon why run this setup in EC2? 13:13 jcamins thd: of course. 13:14 jcamins Waylon: it's easier to scale up/down. 13:14 kf jcamins: can I perhaps bribe you into looking at 5369? 13:14 jcamins bug 5369 13:14 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5369 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, katrin.fischer, ASSIGNED , se queries with paranthesis fail 13:14 tcohen anyone from biblibre available? 13:14 kf I think I did it the way I did after consulting with you 13:14 kf but I don't remember the reasoning 13:14 kf :( 13:15 jcamins Is that the one you meant? 13:15 Waylon jcamins, scale up? 13:15 jcamins Waylon: yeah, I can add more clients/servers easily. 13:16 Waylon how is this different from Xen XCP? 13:16 jcamins Waylon: it probably isn't, but I am using EC-2. 13:16 jcamins :P 13:16 jcamins Waylon: don't forget that we don't all have data centers. 13:17 jcamins And between EC-2 and Rackspace, EC-2 works a lot better. 13:19 thd jcamins: One difference is that Xen is a portable free software solution, which Amazon is not. 13:19 jcamins thd: yes, but does Xen come with servers? 13:20 jcamins That are as affordable as Amazon's? 13:20 jcamins (see exhibit A, some of us don't have our own data centers) 13:20 thd jcamins: Price advantage for EC2 is highly use case dependent. 13:21 * Waylon 's work uses two bare metal servers inside softlayer. 13:21 Waylon then VM's within that. 13:22 jcamins If I had a data center, I'd do that too. 13:23 Waylon Amazon Relational Database Service .. means a db server outside of the EC2 instances? 13:24 thd jcamins: I also do not have my own data centre, however, I have reasonable virtual hosting without the degree of quick scalability provided by EC2. 13:24 jcamins Waylon: don't use it. It performs poorly. 13:25 jcamins thd: I'm satisfied with my current arrangement. 13:25 Waylon is there a way to automatically increase the number of servers inside a circular mysql circle? 13:25 jcamins Waylon: not to my knowledge. 13:25 Waylon ... s/circle/replication 13:26 thd jcamins: I am merely scared every time I read an Amazon terms of service agreement. 13:26 Waylon right.. so its all text editing or global sets. 13:29 thd jcamins: My concern about Amazon is many instances of behaving in a manner hostile to the interests of their customers mostly outside the scope of EC2. 13:29 jcamins paul_p: around? 13:32 jcamins paul_p: if you happen to see this message, which branch should I look at for the latest solr code? 13:32 * jcamins has to get ready to head into the city. On-site today. 13:37 paul_p jcamins_away, i'm here ! 13:37 paul_p jcamins_away, look at dev/solr 13:43 tcohen rangi: if one was to invalidate something in memcached (something big as a preferences hash) 13:44 tcohen is it better to flush_all (O(1)) or to just delete the key 13:44 tcohen ? 13:44 kf jcamins++ thx for commenting 13:47 tcohen any good soul around? to signoff on bug 6193 so I can safely work on top of that? 13:47 Brooke kf++ 13:47 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6193 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, tomascohen, ASSIGNED , Use memcached cache koha-conf.xml configuration variables 13:48 Brooke I'm afraid my soul is beyond redemption, Sir. 13:49 kf tcohen: rangi is probably asleep almost 3 am in nz 13:55 tcohen oops 13:58 oleonard Correct? 13:58 kf hi oleonard :) 13:58 * oleonard is finishing reading the meeting log 13:58 * oleonard is sorry he wasn't there to vote against sekjal changing jobs 13:59 kf engard: still around? :) 13:59 kf hm nengard 14:00 slef KohaCon12? 14:00 wahanui KohaCon12 is, like, http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:KohaCon12 14:00 nengard hi 14:00 wahanui hello, nengard 14:00 nengard whatcha need? 14:00 oleonard KohaCon2012? 14:00 wahanui KohaCon2012 is Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June 14:00 kf needing nothing 14:00 slef oleonard: that's not its name :-/ 14:01 oleonard slef: Wasn't me! :P 14:01 slef wahanui: forget KohaCon2012 14:01 wahanui slef: I forgot kohacon2012 14:01 slef wahanui: KohaCon12 is also Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June 14:01 wahanui okay, slef. 14:02 slef KohaCon12? 14:02 wahanui KohaCon12 is http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:KohaCon12 or Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June 14:04 * mtj waves from nz :) 14:04 mtj 3am here :p 14:04 Brooke kohacon2012 14:04 Brooke kohacon2012? 14:04 Brooke now it's dumb again. 14:05 Waylon Kohacon2012? 14:05 Brooke information 2 places > information 1 place. 14:05 slef kohacon2012 is a typo for kohacon12 14:05 oleonard Can wahanui do "see also?" 14:05 Brooke it's an alternate title 14:05 Brooke cross references make for cross readers. 14:06 slef I feel it's a mistake. 14:06 Brooke tell me if you feel that way in a hundred years :P 14:06 mtj sorry i missed the meeting all, will have a read of the logs now.... 14:06 slef Brooke: then it can add 2100 one year ;-) 14:07 Waylon heres hoping we'll be here in 100 years. 14:07 Brooke amazed you're still up mtj 14:07 slef consistency with kohacon10 is better than futureproofing IMO 14:07 Brooke if you're going to harp on consistency, it used to just be kohacon :P 14:08 slef also I think others were using KohaCon12 before me 14:08 Brooke there are instances of both in documentation 14:08 Brooke so 14:09 Brooke no reason to get all bent out of shape. 14:09 slef I'm not. I was just quietly deprecating the lesser-used one. 14:09 * slef shrugs 14:10 mtj Brooke: i was asleep... but now im up and perky 14:28 libsysguy morning #Koha 14:28 sekjal morning, libsysguy 14:28 libsysguy had two realizations today...cait and kf are the same person and I haven't seen druthb in forever 14:29 libsysguy morning sekjal 14:32 nengard libsysguy we keep druthb super busy :) 14:35 * wizzyrea waves 14:37 sekjal morning, wizzyrea 14:38 kf libsysguy: I thought I told you that 14:40 kf libsysguy: seriously, you didn't know? 14:46 wizzyrea alright, bbiab 14:57 libsysguy yeah seriously kf 14:58 libsysguy i was all like 0_0 14:58 kf I am sorry 14:58 kf I was quite sure you did know 14:58 libsysguy hehe its cool 14:58 libsysguy and nengard why do you have to lock up druthb 14:58 kf like really really sure I told you sometime... heh 14:58 libsysguy you probably did 14:58 libsysguy and i am just dense 14:58 nengard i'm not locking her up!! 14:58 nengard she's locking herself up so she can focus :) 14:59 kf libsysguy: that wasnot what I meant! 15:00 libsysguy hehe nengard 15:00 libsysguy kf I know :p 15:16 magnuse http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/01/02/charlton-library-sends-police-to-collect-overdue-books-from-5-year-old/ 15:16 wizzyrea heh 15:16 magnuse maybe koha should have a "send the police to this patron" button? 15:17 libsysguy ^^ 15:17 magnuse integrated with the police's api, of course 15:17 wizzyrea a report would do 15:18 magnuse or a cronjob? 15:18 libsysguy cronjob for sure 15:24 jcamins paul_p: thanks. 15:25 nengard facebook friends help me pick: http://www.facebook.com/nengard/posts/246280375440935 15:25 jcamins kf: well, I tried to clarify. 15:28 jcamins What is Matthias Meusburger's nick? 15:29 magnuse matts, i think? 15:29 jcamins matts++ # bug 7400 *ROCKS*!!!!!!!! 15:29 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7400 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Add auto-completion on auth_finder 15:29 matts ^^ 15:29 matts Nice :) 15:29 nengard I love it! 15:29 magnuse sounds really useful! 15:30 * jcamins will test it and sign off when he can. 15:30 jcamins But matts deserved some karma up front, too. 15:30 matts thanx jcamins :) 15:30 matts hopefully the testing part will be smooth 15:31 maximep curious about why using yui instead of jquery ? 15:33 matts there already was yui autocompletion in koha 15:33 maximep ah ok, didn't know what it used 15:33 matts I don't exactly remember where, right now... But it was there :) 15:33 jcamins maximep: I think oleonard is working on a way to change it over to jQuery but it isn't done yet. 15:33 * oleonard is 15:34 matts that could be nice... 15:34 oleonard Bug 5481 15:34 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5481 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED , Replace YUI JS libraries with Jquery UI 15:35 oleonard STILL waiting for the jQueryUI menu widget to come out of alpha. 15:35 maximep I wish jqueryui would care more about accessibility ;/ 15:36 kf oleonard: perhaps we should give up on that? :( 15:36 nengard there is a bug for this: when you click the invoice number on the acq search results it always says 'no items received' even though you have already received items 15:36 oleonard kf: Maybe so 15:36 wizzyrea or - what's keeping it alpha? 15:36 kf maximep: :( are you working with a cutomer where this is a problem? 15:36 wizzyrea maybe we should help them out (if that's even possible) 15:36 oleonard maximep: In what way? 15:36 kf because I have a library with a blind staff member... and I am interested to know about known problems 15:36 kf or we have a new library... where this will be important 15:37 kf I got a report that the pull down menus are a problem, like edit on staff detail 15:38 wizzyrea those menus are a problem for selenium testing too, iirc 15:39 wizzyrea (though that particular problem isn't a huge one for day-to-day_ 15:39 wizzyrea ) 15:40 * wizzyrea pokes anyone for a sign off on 7388 patch 1 15:40 jcamins bug 7388 15:40 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7388 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, wizzyrea, ASSIGNED , rounded corners for side menus in staff client 15:40 wizzyrea it's teensy 15:40 * jcamins pokes back. 15:41 jcamins Bother. This isn't in Uzbek. 15:42 * wizzyrea also pokes regarding bug 7157 15:42 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7157 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, wizzyrea, ASSIGNED , Improve the j2a.pl cronjob 15:42 wizzyrea you can't tell me people aren't clamoring for that. 15:43 slef remind me what j2a is 15:43 wizzyrea kid -> adult patron category transitions 15:43 wizzyrea juvenile 2 adult, technically 15:43 wizzyrea I didn't name it :P 15:43 * oleonard is waiting for a good scientist -> hulk patron category transition script 15:44 * wizzyrea laughs 15:44 wizzyrea @quote add *oleonard is waiting for a good scientist -> hulk patron category transition script 15:44 huginn wizzyrea: The operation succeeded. Quote #175 added. 15:44 jcamins Good news! This is in Bukharan! 15:45 wizzyrea what in heavens name are you working on 15:45 maximep kf: we have an accessibility expert working here and it will soon become one of our priorities 15:45 jcamins Bad news: there's no language code for Bukharan. 15:45 maximep but it will probably be opac only 15:46 jcamins wizzyrea: cataloging. 15:46 kf maximep: that's good news! 15:46 wizzyrea woot maximep that's great :) 15:48 kf maximep: it's a start :) 15:49 wizzyrea maximep++ it's a good place to do work on koha 15:53 sekjal anyone in a UNIMARC library able to test bug 3216? 15:53 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3216 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, frederic, NEW , UNIMARC author facets 15:54 sekjal getting the first patch committed will open the door to bug 4255 15:54 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=4255 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, NEW , Add item type to facet list 15:55 jcamins kf: could you address marcelr's latest comment? 15:55 kf I will try to do so tonight 15:56 jcamins Thanks. :) 15:56 kf team work :) 15:57 oleonard the discussion of Bug 4274 versus Bug 3651 would be improved by some concrete descriptions of the security implications 15:57 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=4274 minor, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, NEW , Cart now requires login before emailing contents 15:57 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3651 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED , Require patron login to send shelves and baskets 15:58 maximep kf: but wait, do you really know a blind library staff member ? That seems so weird to me for some reason :S 15:59 wizzyrea oleonard: can the facility be used to spam people? 15:59 wizzyrea (that would be my main concern) 15:59 wizzyrea probably what we need 16:00 oleonard That is the assertion made in the original bug report 16:00 wizzyrea is something that detects more than x number of list sends in y timeframe 16:00 wizzyrea and disallows them for z duration 16:00 wizzyrea (for logged out users) 16:01 wizzyrea (logged in users can send as many as they want) 16:02 wizzyrea I think logged out users should be able to send, but they should be limited somehow, is what I'm getting at. 16:03 wizzyrea 10 lists in 15 minutes? 16:03 wizzyrea a bot would easily surpass that, a human might have trouble. 16:03 sekjal any numbers should be syspref (or config file) controllable, instead of hardcoded 16:03 wizzyrea right but you've gotta pick the defaults :) 16:04 reiveune bye 16:12 * tcohen has made his first use of git-bz attach :-D 16:12 wizzyrea tcohen++ don't you adore it 16:12 wizzyrea there are few things that make life as much better as git-bz 16:12 tcohen wizzyrea: this is heaven 16:13 kf tcohen+ 16:13 kf tcohen++ 16:13 * oleonard still hesitates to use git-bz attach, not sure why 16:13 jcamins oleonard: it's wonderful! 16:14 wizzyrea oh my it is SO great. 16:14 wizzyrea the only thing I've found that it doesn't work well for 16:14 wizzyrea is binary attachments 16:14 * tcohen only needs learning how to change bug dependencies 16:14 kf maximep: I don't think it's weird - I think it's awesome :) 16:14 wizzyrea maximep: what kind of disabilities are you trying to accommodate for? 16:14 * wizzyrea is just curious 16:14 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6000] Performance enhancements for C4::Context and C4::Languages <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6000> 16:15 kf tcohen: have you seen that you can obsolte patches in one step with attaching a new? 16:15 tcohen nope 16:15 wizzyrea ^^ this has changed my life 16:15 tcohen THAT would be heaven 16:15 kf hehe 16:15 kf you have to be a bit fast 16:15 wizzyrea I don't even care that you have to be fast 16:15 kf but it's doable 16:15 kf git bz attach -e <bugnumber> HEAD 16:15 kf then 16:15 kf uncomment the attachement line 16:15 wizzyrea uncomment Obsoletes 16:15 kf yep 16:15 kf you only have to be a bit fast 16:15 wizzyrea for all the patches you want to obsolete 16:15 kf or it will time out 16:15 wizzyrea 20 seconds I think it is 16:15 kf but it works very well 16:16 wizzyrea if only you could change the patch status there too, it would be like, angels singing and throwing little pickles 16:16 jcamins Pickles? 16:17 wizzyrea have you never seen real genius? 16:17 jcamins ope. 16:17 jcamins *Nope 16:18 wizzyrea http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgNgAiGQ_IM 16:18 kf wizzyrea: I think you can do some things with git bz edit 16:18 kf but it's quite limited 16:18 wizzyrea yea 16:19 wizzyrea I think patch status is a special conditional field for us or something 16:19 kf yep 16:19 kf custom field or something like that 16:19 * jcamins gazes with perplexity. 16:19 jcamins What a weird book this is. 16:19 kf hm? 16:19 jcamins I can find no record of the book, the author, the translator, the original Russian edition, or *anything else*. 16:21 kf oh 16:21 kf it's a print with only 1 book? 16:22 jcamins The edition supposedly had 2,000 copies, but apparently only one is known to have survived, and the author and translator are remarkably poorly-known. 16:24 kf ok 16:24 kf end of year acq question 16:24 kf has someone sql scripts moving the old orders to the new budgets/funds? 16:27 maximep wizzyrea: pretty much all disabilities 16:28 wizzyrea so, motor disabilities, auditory disabilities, and visual disabilities? 16:28 maximep yes 16:28 maximep that means everything from color contrast, make it work at 200% font size, make it keyboard accessible 16:29 maximep stuff like that 16:29 maximep and of course make it work for screen readers 16:29 kf :) 16:29 kf we have reports that it works quite ok with lynx 16:30 kf maximep: koha has a blind developer too :) |Lupin| 16:32 maximep cool 16:36 wizzyrea sooo, version numbering 16:36 wizzyrea it's quite confusing to have a master number at 3.06.03.01 16:37 wizzyrea just sayin. 16:37 * kf agrees 16:37 * jcamins too 16:37 wizzyrea i had to go back and verify that I was using the right branch - it wastes my time 16:49 jcamins Speaking of branches, I pruned my git branches yesterday. 16:50 jcamins I was delighted to find that I could delete about fifty branches because they'd been pushed. 16:50 wizzyrea :D 16:50 jcamins It really highlights how many features and bug fixes get into Koha. 16:50 wizzyrea ya 16:50 wizzyrea is great :) 16:51 nengard jcamins is there a way to batch delete branches? 16:51 oleonard I was delighted to find today that almost all of my patch-sent git branches are either signed off or passed-QA 16:51 wizzyrea it' bc you're awesome. 16:51 jcamins nengard: not that I know of. I just did branch -D (all the branches I wanted to delete) 16:51 * oleonard will have to work to make more work for QA 16:51 wizzyrea oleonard++ 16:52 nengard k 16:52 jcamins nengard: I was checking each bug to confirm that it was really pushed. 16:52 nengard yeah 16:52 nengard makes sense 16:53 sekjal got some code for bug 7401.... one minor problem 16:53 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7401 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, ian.walls, NEW , Shelving Location facet instead of Branch facet when only 1 branch configured 16:53 oleonard I think you can git branch -d branch1 branch2 16:53 sekjal search results have no idea what side (OPAC or staff) they're being compiled for 16:55 paul_p oleonard, the next step is to signoff bugs from others then, if you don't know what to do ;-) 16:55 paul_p oleonard, & jcamins & wizzyrea & others = have you seen sekjal today announcement ? 16:56 * wizzyrea did 16:56 jcamins paul_p: I have indeed. 16:58 sekjal I'll be finishing out my term as QAM, if the community allows. I have no indention of leaving Koha; I'll just be changing/scaling back my hours 16:59 oleonard Oh sure, that's what they all say. And we never saw jcamins again! 17:00 jcamins oleonard: no, but you saw jcamins' fudge which makes up for it, no? :P 17:00 oleonard :) 17:01 nengard ha! 17:04 sekjal I'm looking forward to getting my home Koha install up and running 17:04 sekjal and customized to do some of the crazy things private libraries may want to do 17:04 jcamins sekjal: you mean like uploading images? 17:04 jcamins !! 17:04 jcamins That reminds me of something on my to-do list! 17:05 sekjal jcamins: yes, that's pretty neat 17:05 jcamins Can anyone guess what? 17:05 sekjal I also want to be able to do more kinds of biblio-to-biblio relationships 17:05 * jcamins watches sekjal bug himself about QAing bug 1633, and crosses that item off his to-do list. 17:05 nengard jcamins whatever happened to the easy cataloging interface you were working on 17:05 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=1633 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, kmkale, ASSIGNED , Add ability to take book cover images from local img db 17:05 jcamins nengard: it got larger. 17:05 nengard heh 17:06 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6968] Show items expired before today in check expiration of serials page <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6968> 17:06 jcamins nengard: and moved out of Koha-proper, actually. 17:06 jcamins Once it's fully functional, I look forward to adding it back to Koha proper. 17:06 nengard k 17:08 maximep finally had time to fix my patch for 6968... 1 month later :/ 17:08 wizzyrea bug 6968 17:08 jcamins maximep: there are patches that have taken longer. 17:08 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6968 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, colin.campbell, NEW , Show items expired before today in check expiration of serials page 17:11 jcamins sekjal++ # arbitrary bibliographic relationships would be awesome. 17:11 jcamins Also awesome: supporting MODS. 17:12 jcamins Also also awesome: replacing C4::XSLT with a T::T plugin. 17:12 wizzyrea maximep: not to be a bother, but may we have a test plan for 6968? 17:12 wizzyrea for those of us who don't use serials everyday it's not really clear how to test it 17:12 sekjal it'll probably be easier for me to convert metadata into MARC than to do arbitrary metadata format support, but I'd like to go there, too 17:13 wizzyrea at least it's not clear to me 17:13 jcamins sekjal: I know, but I thought I'd water the seed. ;) 17:13 maximep well I don't know more than you about serials, so not really sure I can provide a test plan 17:13 sekjal I'll need to automate record creation based on some odd data sources (like MusicBrainz) 17:14 slef jcamins: sounds euphemistic 17:15 wizzyrea ... ok then. 17:15 maximep already had the data to test it :/ 17:16 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6885] Superlibrarian users can't delete items from another library when IndependantBranches <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6885> 17:16 kf bug 6968 17:16 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=6968 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, colin.campbell, NEW , Show items expired before today in check expiration of serials page 17:17 kf I wonder 17:17 kf why not justmake it a date range? 17:17 kf expired between x and x? 17:17 kf why is today important? coudl be preselected to search like that 17:21 maximep not sure a range would work 17:21 maximep the client just wanted to see everything expired 17:49 wizzyrea hey what are the new FAQ's? 17:49 wizzyrea Package usage 17:53 slef bbl 17:54 jcamins wizzyrea: Why? 17:54 * jcamins asks that a lot. 17:54 jcamins Frequently, even. 17:54 wizzyrea why not? 17:54 jcamins "Can Koha run under Windows?" 17:54 gmcharlt yes, it's called VirtualBox 17:54 gmcharlt ;) 17:55 jcamins wizzyrea: I don't know. 17:55 jcamins Third base. 17:55 oleonard "Can I train my cat to wear shoes?" 17:55 wizzyrea for koha, silly 17:56 jcamins [off] I shouldn't be allowed near a computer when I have a co-op board interview coming up. Apparently it makes me quote Abbott and Costello. 17:58 rangi izban12 17:58 rangi heh 18:00 rangi lucky i dont use that for anything important 18:00 jcamins Heh. 18:10 jcamins rangi: good morning. 18:10 rangi morning :) 18:11 cait morning rangi :) 18:11 jcamins Chester the cat says hi. 18:12 jcamins s/cat/cloud of fur/ 18:12 rangi sup peeps 18:13 wizzyrea not a lot :) 18:13 wizzyrea is a testing day 18:15 cait oh Chester? 18:15 wahanui hmmm... Chester is no where near there, ye littlle... 18:15 cait where is Myshkin? 18:15 wahanui well, Myshkin is more than articulate enough without me performing his interior monologue. 18:15 wizzyrea wahanui++ 18:16 jcamins lol 18:16 jcamins That was remarkably appropriate. 18:16 jcamins Chester is my client's cat. 18:16 jcamins s/cat/cloud of fur/ 18:17 jcamins He's blue. I had never known cats came in blue before. 18:17 rangi ok, gotta go catch my bus, back from the bus 18:20 cait a blue cat? 18:20 cait are you feeling wlel jared? 18:21 jcamins cait: no, seriously. Apparently British short hair cats can come in blue. 18:22 cait proove? 18:23 jcamins I'm sure he'll just look gray in a photo, but I'll try. 18:23 jwagner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_blue_hugo.jpg 18:26 jcamins cait: http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/405486_791346268819_24800824_37953367_136499197_n.jpg 18:28 cait aaw 18:28 cait cute 18:28 cait and he might be blue 18:29 cait you can do a lot of things with gimp... 18:29 jcamins lol 18:32 rangi back 18:33 cait wb rangi 18:33 rangi thanks 18:33 jcamins Welcome back. 18:36 sekjal anyone familiar with Koha's SVC support? 18:36 sekjal looking at the new_bib function makes me... nervous 18:37 jcamins sekjal: not I, but I heard dpavlin was doing stuff with it. 18:38 sekjal the add_bib subroutine explicitly deletes all incoming item record fields.... no comment as to why 18:38 cait there is a page on the wiki 18:38 cait with documentation about it 18:38 jcamins sekjal: actually, I can explain that. 18:38 sekjal cait: reading that, now 18:38 rangi sekjal it was done to work with biblios 18:39 jcamins sekjal: rangi already did, never mind. :) 18:39 rangi so had a specific use case 18:39 cait so you can't add items using it? 18:39 cait at all? 18:39 rangi which may or may not be useful 18:39 cait oh 18:39 rangi biblios.org 18:39 cait I had hoped we could use it to create ill records and items 18:40 cait ILL 18:40 rangi not biblio records 18:40 rangi you might be able to 18:40 jcamins cait: you could modify it. 18:40 cait eew. 18:40 cait heh 18:40 cait guess I will get there at some point 18:40 rangi biblios is dead along with google gears 18:41 gmcharlt sekjal: the reasoning was to avoid having new_bib actually create items 18:41 gmcharlt so it's a little biblios-specific in that sense 18:41 jcamins sekjal: the biblios code is on github. 18:41 gmcharlt in context, letting it accept any old 952 and try to create item records from it ... was not needed 18:42 gmcharlt but even if you think about Koha itself 18:42 cait would it be hard to add it as an option? 18:42 gmcharlt I'd rather that one have to do a PUT /bibs/new_item 18:42 gmcharlt to create an item record 18:42 sekjal I ask because there is an existing implementation of an OCLC Connexion Gateway for Koha which makes use of the SVC interface 18:42 gmcharlt rather than have it be a side effect of adding a new bib 18:42 rangi however chrisdothall and I have some patches to use the svc/ space for other things (json from reports) so fixing/documenting the other files in there would be great 18:42 jcamins sekjal: https://github.com/ccatalfo/biblios_old 18:43 rangi sekjal: thanks for the qa on bug 929 ill look at that last patch after meetings today 18:43 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=929 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , See details of a budget 18:43 rangi not sure why I didn't apply 18:44 rangi I = it 18:44 sekjal I applied it on top of the other 4 18:44 sekjal should it have gone straight onto master? 18:44 rangi hmm nope 18:44 rangi like that should have worked 18:44 sekjal something about lacking the necessary blobs and hashes 18:44 rangi hmm 18:44 rangi ah well should be able to fix it :) 18:45 rangi plugins/filters are cool :) 18:46 jcamins Plugins/filters++ 18:46 rangi I did another one, for memcaching rendered template includes 18:47 rangi but that depends on Koha::Cache 18:48 jcamins bug 929 18:48 cait tt is very cool 18:48 cait I love it 18:49 rangi filters are easy to write 18:50 sekjal idea: new svc function: stage_bib 18:51 sekjal which doesn't filter items, and puts the biblio in the reservoir first, with a set of matching rules 18:52 rangi that sounds plausible 18:53 sekjal would need to post not only the record, but also the matching rule, and perhaps something to indicate the behaviours 18:55 rangi maybe as xml/yaml/sgml/m5/lisp/prolog 18:55 rangi (the first 2 maybe) 18:55 cait lol 18:55 jcamins prolog++ 18:56 rangi so the biblio, with some conf 18:56 jcamins In prolog. 18:56 rangi rather than a bunch of param 18:56 jcamins Which would not be in prolog. 18:56 rangi heh 18:57 rangi I haven't written prolog since 1992 18:57 jcamins rangi: looks like this is your lucky year! 18:58 rangi not even ow 18:58 rangi (nz slang ill find you pronounciation when at my desk) 18:59 rangi speaking of which 18:59 rangi my stop bbiab 18:59 gmcharlt sekjal: not that there's any real requirement to stick to strict RESTful semantics 18:59 gmcharlt but how about 19:00 gmcharlt PUT /svc/reservoir (to stage a but) 19:00 gmcharlt or 19:00 gmcharlt PUT /svc/import_batch 19:00 gmcharlt PUT /svc/import_batch/new_bib 19:00 cait gmcharlt: happy new year :) 19:01 jcamins gmcharlt: happy new year! 19:01 jcamins gmcharlt: BTW, C4::UploadedFile is really nicely done. 19:01 gmcharlt cait: jcamins: and a happy new your to you 19:01 gmcharlt er, new year 19:01 sekjal gmcharlt: fine by me... though, I need to confirm if staging is the desired behaviour, or if people just want the record to add/overwrite automatically 19:02 gmcharlt sekjal: if it's the latter, then there are a couple options I suggest 19:02 gmcharlt first being writing a web service to identify patches 19:02 gmcharlt *matches 19:02 gmcharlt e.g, POST a bib, get its matches 19:03 gmcharlt then update the bib 19:03 gmcharlt secondly, to extend the noun-y semantics to include matchpoints other than the bib ID 19:03 gmcharlt e.g., POST /bib/isbn/123456789000x 19:05 rangi back 19:30 rangi ohh the last 929 one is katrin's ahh maybe i messed it up when i signed off 19:30 * rangi checks 19:32 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 7271] Revert getitems default sort to homebranch instead of holding branch <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7271> 19:33 rangi hmm jcamins got 5 mins? 19:33 rangi http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=929#c17 19:33 huginn 04Bug 929: enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , See details of a budget 19:33 rangi can you check im not doing something odd? 19:34 jcamins rangi: the question is whether the last one applies on top of master + the previous patches? 19:34 rangi yep 19:34 rangi checkout master 19:34 rangi apply all 5 19:34 rangi is what i did 19:35 jcamins Checking now. 19:35 rangi thank you 19:36 * rangi loves these bugs, nz + germany + connecticut + ny so far 19:36 cait :) 19:37 rangi and now the TT filter is passed QA 19:37 edveal As I am wondering what the best way is to hide link within the staff site, specifically the "Most Circulated Items" report link. 19:37 rangi i can fix bug 7402 with it! 19:37 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7402 normal, P3, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , invoice not showing received titles 19:37 jcamins No problems here. 19:38 rangi edveal: hide from everyone? 19:38 rangi jcamins: cool thanks 19:38 jcamins There should be five patches, right? 19:38 rangi yup 19:38 edveal I can clarify but as I understand it yes from everyone. 19:38 rangi css 19:38 cait you can use some jquery to do that - or css 19:39 cait ^^ what rangi says 19:39 edveal Thanks. 19:39 rangi you may have to edit the template to put it in a span or a div with an id 19:39 rangi to make it easier to do 19:39 rangi but thats a good change anyway 19:39 rangi ids on everything i say 19:40 edveal Don't want to mess with the template if I can avoid it. 19:40 rangi no, that change should go upstream 19:40 wizzyrea edveal: you can probably select on text in the href 19:40 oleonard $("a[href='/cgi-bin/koha/reports/cat_issues_top.pl']").parent().remove(); 19:40 wizzyrea or that 19:40 jcamins edveal: just send in a patch. I'm sure it'd get signed off quickly. 19:41 oleonard edveal: Have you seen the jQuery library on the wiki? 19:41 * rangi still wants ids on everything :) 19:41 * jcamins thinks CSS would be better. 19:41 rangi faster anyway 19:41 edveal Yes, I have seen the library but thought I would bounce it off this group before hunting around in there. 19:42 oleonard jcamins: CSS would work if you had an id 19:42 * rangi points up there ^^ 19:42 rangi :) 19:42 jcamins oleonard: yes, I'm saying edveal should add an id and and use CSS. 19:42 jcamins Better. 19:42 * oleonard would sign off on that 19:42 * rangi too 19:42 cait me too 19:42 rangi twice in fact 19:42 rangi and with sugar on top 19:42 wizzyrea can change it to the ID after tho ;) 19:43 wizzyrea make ppls happy now + make us happy too! 19:50 slef bleargh... http://boingboing.net/2012/01/04/paypal-if-you-dont-like-the.html PayPal: if you don't like the violin you bought, smash it and we'll give you your money back 19:51 jcamins slef: charming, isn't it? 19:51 slef I'm looking at how we take money for kohacon-related things again. I think we may end up with paypal involved, at least until we hit a threshhold. I wish we didn't, but alternatives suck too. 19:52 jcamins slef: yeah, I've been persuaded that PayPal is not the way to go for receiving electronic payments. 19:53 jcamins slef: my solution was to refuse electronic payments, something that unfortunately is not an option in your case. 19:54 slef jcamins: I think when we hit our sponsorship target, I will accept bank transfers too, but not before else our sponsorship-collecting fees will be higher (I HATE ALL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS BECAUSE OF STUFF LIKE THIS) 19:55 slef I wish more UK credit unions and building societies offered business accounts. 19:56 jcamins As far as I know, credit unions in the US don't offer business accounts. 19:56 * oleonard had never heard the term "building society" before 19:56 rangi really? 19:57 rangi we have those here too 19:57 oleonard Ah, Wikipedia says the US version is a Savings and Loan. 19:58 * jcamins doesn't know what a savings and loan is. 19:58 schuster Those all dissappeared in the 80's didn't they? 19:58 * jcamins has always wondered. 19:58 oleonard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_association#Decline_of_S.26Ls 20:04 huginn New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 7402] invoice not showing received titles <http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7402> 20:08 rangi i love TT filters 20:08 * jcamins too 20:08 rangi http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/attachment.cgi?id=7041&action=diff <-- made of win 20:08 jcamins Especially ones that unpollute C4 by eliminating C4::XSLT. 20:09 jcamins Nice! 20:09 cait TT++ 20:09 cait rangi++ for making the switch happen, and chrisdothall++ of course 20:09 jcamins TT filters? 20:09 wizzyrea oh snaps 20:09 jcamins TT filters are a brilliant idea, and everyone should be using them wherever possible and appropriate. 20:09 jcamins TT filters? 20:09 wahanui TT filters are a brilliant idea, and everyone should be using them wherever possible and appropriate. 20:10 cait heh :) 20:11 * wizzyrea sees what you did there 20:12 oleonard Hmmm.. System preference to edit SIP2 responses for errors like expired patron, debarred, etc? 20:13 rangi ? 20:13 oleonard Overdrive shows the error message it gets from Koha if the patron's account is expired: PATRON EXPIRED. Not very friendly. 20:13 jcamins cait: if you question that this cat is blue, you should see my formerly-black trousers. 20:14 cait jcamins: lol 20:14 cait oleonard: perhaps better have a separate interface for it - but would like it 20:16 gmcharlt oleonard: FUD of the day -- Koha is making patrons expire! 20:17 gmcharlt but to answer your comment seriously, yeah, an interface to edit SIP2 messages would be nice; there are some similar requests floating out there for Evergreen 20:18 sekjal oleonard: standard messages could be added to either the Constants.pm, or a Messages.pm, 20:18 sekjal then have them look up sysprefs. if they exist, use, else fall back to defaults 20:18 oleonard The SIP2 messages are the only way for us to communicate to the patron why they couldn't log in, since the rest of the Overdrive system is closed to us 20:19 sekjal and wouldn't it be nice to change/remove that "Greetings from Koha." message? 20:19 gmcharlt sekjal: one quibble - Constants.pm / Messages.pm wouldn't be (inherently) translateable 20:19 sekjal true 20:20 sekjal but it's not now... and at least the syspref values could be edited to match local languages 20:20 gmcharlt but a strings file that belonged to SIPServer itself, on the other hand... 20:20 gmcharlt eh, if we had hooks to customize strings, may as well make them fully translateable from the get-go 20:22 wizzyrea ^^ 20:22 * rangi heads off to the reserve bank 20:22 rangi bbiab 20:22 wizzyrea gl with them 20:23 jcamins [off] Tell them not to use the US Federal Reserve as a model for anything other than exhibitions. 20:23 rangi setting up single sign on 20:23 rangi so all good 20:23 * rangi is gone 20:24 cait about the messages 20:24 cait translatability would be a plus 20:24 cait I think the vendors we worked with use their software 20:24 cait to translate what they get from koha into something that makes more sense 20:24 cait some things don't give nice feedback though and were a bit of a problem 20:29 oleonard Speaking of which, Bug 7396 needs signoff but I'm not sure how one tests 20:29 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7396 minor, PATCH-Sent, ---, ian.walls, NEW , Debarred message not displayed over SIP2 20:29 sekjal testing SIP2 is always a huge pain 20:30 slef jcamins: I think the theory of building societies used to be that the community put all its money in a pot, built a few houses with less reliance on the bankers, then as the first wave repaid, newer borrowers could build their homes. Cooperation in action! 20:30 gmcharlt sekjal: one thign that would help testing the bug would be identifying whether the relevant message is the patron information request, the checkout message, or both 20:31 gmcharlt oleonard: testing SIP2 can be done from telnet 20:31 gmcharlt typical approach is to copy and paste lines and examine the responses 20:31 gmcharlt I can feed you a couple in a momenty 20:31 jcamins slef: sounds like a good idea to me. 20:35 slef jcamins: trouble here was in the 1980s/90s that a majority of savers and borrowers of about a dozen societies were convinced that all this member control was a problematic overhead and they sold out to banks and other capitalists. 20:37 slef jcamins: none of the demutualised dozen survives as an independent institution any more and very few survive even as a shopfront brand, although one may soon be bought by the UK's largest co-op. 20:37 slef jcamins: also, the largest failed UK bank, Northern Rock, was one of them. 20:38 slef aaaany way ;) 20:38 * jcamins would've thought the Bank of Scotland would be the largest failed bank. 20:38 slef didn't actually fail 20:38 wizzyrea I'm trying to test the receipts dev on bug 7001 - and I see this: http://screencast.com/t/1Uc1a6FPFbt 20:38 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=7001 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, srdjan, ASSIGNED , User Configurable Slips 20:38 wizzyrea I suspect I'm doing something wrong. 20:38 slef got into trouble, sold a chunk to gov.uk 20:39 slef but still technically a working bank 20:39 slef I think NR was completely taken by UK Financial Asset Management = gov.uk's proxy 20:45 wizzyrea is that a mysql version thing? 20:46 jcamins Yikes! I've never seen anything like that. 20:46 jcamins And with that thought, I'm going home. 20:46 jcamins Good night, #koha. 20:47 jcamins Wish us luck. 20:47 wizzyrea ha later 20:47 wizzyrea gl 20:47 seneca Anyone know what Perl module supplies Locale/Currency/Format.pm? 20:47 jcamins Thanks. 20:47 jcamins Locale::Currency? 20:47 seneca (Oh yeah, Happy New Year, everyone!) 20:47 seneca is it that easy? ;) 20:47 jcamins_away seneca: think so. 20:47 wizzyrea or package 20:47 wizzyrea liblocale-currency-format-perl 20:47 jcamins_away ^^ better. 20:48 * wizzyrea had to look it up 20:48 wizzyrea i typed in "debian package locale currency format" (no quotes) 20:48 seneca I did the same thing, but that package isn't being found by apt... 20:48 slef nooo 20:48 seneca trying the cpan module 20:49 slef use the file search on http://packages.debian.org ? 20:49 sekjal anyone use the Transfers and Transfers to Receive pages in Circ? 20:49 slef sekjal: surely someone must else they wouldn't have been written?</useless> 20:49 seneca I think that "apt-cache search" searches the descriptions from packages.debian.org 20:50 sekjal slef: could be vestigial 20:50 oleonard sekjal: I seem to recall libraries using them to move items between "virtual" branches 20:50 slef seneca: no, it's only the locally-cached listings and only for the currently-installed distributions 20:50 oleonard (branches used as shelving locations I think) 20:50 slef s/installed/configured 20:50 sekjal I think there is a problem with using branch transfers and automatic item return 20:51 sekjal if you transfer a material from it's homebranch A to branch B, then try to check it in, if HomeOrHoldingBranchReturn is set to 'homebranch', it immediately asks you to return it 20:51 sekjal instead of clearing the transfer and "accepting" the material 20:51 slef My apt-cache finds this package: liblocale-currency-format-perl - Perl functions for formatting monetary values 20:51 sekjal so checkin must not be the right action to "accept" a transfer 20:51 slef seneca: are you on squeeze? 20:52 sekjal I think that, odd as it seems, "cancel transfer" is the right action 20:52 wizzyrea I think you're right 20:52 seneca lenny still 20:53 slef seneca: lenny end of life next month, you know? 20:53 seneca I know... 20:53 wizzyrea sekjal we use those pages 20:53 slef seneca: upgrade, or backport that package for an easier upgrade later 20:54 slef seneca: apt-get source --build liblocale-currency-format-perl # if all else is configured 20:54 sekjal wizzyrea: how to you 'receive' a transfer that was initiated from the branch transfers page? 20:54 wizzyrea afaik you just check it in, and it says "not checked out" 20:54 slef seneca: (a deb-src line for squeeze, dpkg-dev installed and probably other stuff I forget) 20:55 sekjal wizzyrea: do you have automatic item return on? 20:55 wizzyrea yes, I believe so, let me double check 20:55 slef hehe... not what I thought: http://www.evergreencoop.com/ 20:55 wizzyrea yes, we do 20:56 sekjal and set to return to homebranch? 20:56 wizzyrea yep 20:57 sekjal ugh 20:57 sekjal I don't know 20:57 sekjal I think there is some data funkiness complicating my test case 20:57 wizzyrea what is this in response to? 20:57 wizzyrea the 1st question 20:57 wizzyrea the first question? 20:57 wahanui the first question is "What are you trying to do?" 20:57 sekjal a partner library is having some difficulties getting stuff moved between their branches and bookmobile 20:58 wizzyrea hmm 21:00 wizzyrea this is my interpretation of what you told me you were doing: http://screencast.com/t/q3NxANVX8S 21:00 wizzyrea or what you were trying to do 21:00 wizzyrea without the mistake of course ;) 21:00 * oleonard goes to watch the video of wizzyrea's interpretive dance 21:01 wizzyrea which reminds me of "how you dance to dubstep" 21:01 wizzyrea 1. wait for the drop 21:01 wizzyrea 2. convulse wildly 21:03 sekjal wizzyrea: that is exactly it 21:03 sekjal only, I'm getting a "transfer to HOMEBRANCH" message instead of "not checked out" 21:03 wizzyrea hmm 21:03 wizzyrea so is there a hypothetical library C in there somewhere? 21:03 sekjal possibly 21:04 sekjal or, it could be that the item is already at branch B 21:04 wizzyrea like, the item is at library A, *should be* at library B, but is really at library C? 21:04 * wizzyrea can create that too 21:04 wizzyrea I happen to know that misroutes can cause all sorts of funky 21:04 wizzyrea especially after a couple of checkind 21:04 wizzyrea checkins 21:05 wizzyrea double misroutes usually make transfers go away 21:05 wizzyrea and the items get stuck wherever they are 21:05 sekjal we seriously need to revisit our logic behind item transfers... 21:06 sekjal unfortunately, it's wicked complex, and every library will want a slightly different workflow 21:06 wizzyrea true 21:06 wizzyrea but, at the same time 21:07 wizzyrea I think there are more similarities than subtle differences. 21:11 wizzyrea and we have the building blocks for almost all of it 21:11 sekjal there are so many variables to track: who owns the book? where is it now? where is supposed to be, and why? 21:11 wizzyrea right, branchtransfers could generate a whole lot more metadata 21:12 wizzyrea I was just discussing today 21:12 wizzyrea adding a "check status" function to the transfers page 21:12 sekjal homebranch and holdingbranch answer the first two questions 21:12 sekjal if we used branch transfers to answer the third, we may be all set 21:12 pastebot "gmcharlt" at 65.15.86.218 pasted "for oleonard: how to test SIP" (31 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/185 21:12 wizzyrea gmcharlt++ 21:13 gmcharlt (and yes, sekjal's patch works0 21:13 oleonard gmcharlt++ 21:14 * gmcharlt muses how well the debarred message would play with the patrons of a law library 21:14 wizzyrea also, fines messages go in that "messages" field as well 21:14 wizzyrea amount owed, or something 21:16 * oleonard will have to test tomorrow... quitting time 21:23 wizzyrea bye - (that's what I get for not paying attention) 21:31 rangi back 21:32 rangi man i should go to meetings more often, you guys fix everything when im not here 21:32 wizzyrea lulz 21:50 rangi gmcharlt: im gonna steal your how to test SIP instructions and put them on the wiki 21:51 rangi gmcharlt++ 21:51 gmcharlt thief! 21:51 gmcharlt ;) 21:51 rangi heh 21:51 gmcharlt rangi++ 21:52 wizzyrea yes rangi++ 21:53 wizzyrea Also, I was trying to think of new FAQ's 21:59 sekjal night, #koha 21:59 rangi http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_SIP2_server_setup#Testing_with_Telnet 22:00 wizzyrea woooooot 22:08 slef whatever us or code4lib do with registrations, we still beat the London Olympics - another goof announced today 22:08 rangi heh 22:10 slef http://m.itn.co.uk/36283_120104olympics04.html 22:23 wizzyrea oh who added the bit to the wiki re: the 3M emulator! 22:23 rangi not me 22:23 wizzyrea that's awesoem. 22:23 wizzyrea so great I can't spell. 22:24 rangi heh 22:24 wizzyrea dpavlin++ 22:24 wizzyrea history ftw. 22:27 Brooke o/ 22:27 wizzyrea heya 22:35 slef surely it should be 3Mulator? 22:51 mle http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/File:Koha-logo-black-and-white.jpg anyone got the vector art here? 22:52 wizzyrea I don't 22:52 mle :p 22:54 rangi mle: ill ask our designers 22:55 rangi they used something to create this 22:55 rangi http://www.kohacon10.org.nz/static/discoverer/koha.png 22:56 wizzyrea oh I rather like that lil logo better 22:56 wizzyrea is fancy 22:57 slef hrm shouldn't we have the source code for the logo in git? ;) 22:57 wizzyrea Yes, we should 22:57 wizzyrea if we can find it 22:58 slef what do you mean it's not been catalogued? 22:58 wizzyrea i have never seen a vector art copy of it 22:59 slef so if it's not in the acq pile, it didn't exist? 23:10 mle rangi: that is a pretty logo. 23:11 rangi you are welcome to it, if you want to change the 0 to a 2 :) 23:13 * mle gets the Tippex 23:14 rangi hehe 23:14 rangi ^H2 23:14 wizzyrea i actually really like the intricacy of that logo 23:14 wizzyrea really really 23:15 wizzyrea I think we should adopt it 23:15 wizzyrea omg my clone 23:15 rangi lisa did it