Time  Nick         Message
07:00 cait         good morning #koha
07:06 rangi        hi cait
07:07 cait         hi rangi :)
09:13 mbalmer      hello Koha world!
11:25 cait         mbalmer: fixing indentation and whitespace makes your patches hard to read
11:25 cait         perhaps try fixing those in separate patches
11:34 mbalmer      cait, my editor removes trailing whitespace automatically, as you may see these affected lines don't change
11:34 mbalmer      (visually, I mean)
11:40 cait         yeah, but it's not good
11:40 cait         people look at the patches to see what has been changed
11:40 cait         it makes it hard for qa
11:41 cait         http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Coding_Guidelines
11:52 mbalmer      bug and wiki page set up.
12:09 cait_afk     only half around today
12:09 cait_afk     the wiki page is a good thing
12:10 cait_afk     time to do some reading
12:18 mbalmer      some of the SQL used is really weird (to say the least), e.g.  'SELECT DATE(CURDATE())"  ...
13:37 druthb       o/
13:37 cait_afk     hi druthb :)
13:37 jcamins_away \o
13:38 cait_afk     hi jcamins_away :)
13:38 jcamins_away cait_afk: not very far away from the keyboard!
13:38 druthb       hi, cait_who_isn't_really_afk, and jcamins_who_isn't_really_away.
13:38 cait_afk     hehe
13:38 cait_afk     running around the apartment
13:39 cait_afk     so sometimes afk
14:54 druthb       bonjour, francharb
14:54 francharb    hi druthb
14:55 cait_afk     hi francharb
14:55 cait_afk     :)
14:55 francharb    hi cait_afk
14:55 francharb    working partners!! :)
14:55 cait_afk     hm? :)
14:56 druthb       imma cranking data for a go-live.  my new data-cranking script is working very nicely now.
14:56 francharb    cait_afk, what do you do, right now?
14:56 francharb    just chilling with koha crew?
14:56 francharb    ;)
14:56 druthb       she keeps me sane.  Hard job.
14:56 francharb    hehe
14:56 cait_afk     heh
14:56 cait_afk     not that hard :)
14:57 cait_afk     watching a documentation and trying to gather some motivation for bugs
14:57 cait_afk     what are you doing here on a sunday francharb?
14:57 francharb    a training to prepare
14:57 * druthb     thinks it'd be awesome to have francharb for a trainer.  :)
14:57 francharb    some koha testing for clients
14:58 cait_afk     yep
14:58 francharb    ;)
15:02 cait_afk     what kind of library are you training tomorrow?
15:05 * druthb     grumps...the script finished, but there is some sort of mapping goof---one lil tweak!
15:05 * druthb     checks for other problems, before re-running that monster.
15:08 francharb    cait_afk, it's on wednesday and it's a public library and it's more a "question/answer day"
15:10 mbalmer      re from a nice walk on the snow..
15:14 druthb       @wunder 75076
15:14 huginn`      druthb: The current temperature in APRSWXNET Denison/Sherman TX US, Pottsboro, Texas is 8.9�C (9:03 AM CST on December 18, 2011). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 55%. Dew Point: 1.0�C. Windchill: 9.0�C. Pressure: 30.30 in 1026.0 hPa.
15:15 druthb       @wunder konstanz
15:15 huginn`      druthb: The current temperature in Konstanz, Germany is 1.0�C (4:00 PM CET on December 18, 2011). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 80%. Dew Point: -1.0�C. Pressure: 29.97 in 1015 hPa (Rising).
15:29 jcamins      Mmm. Biscuits.
15:30 * jcamins    waits impatiently for them to be finished.
15:37 druthb_away  wahoo!
15:37 druthb_away  my script worked!  got a buncha bibs all ready to load!
15:40 jcamins      Hooray!
15:43 druthb_away  loading bibs now...gonna go stir up some breakfast! :D
15:44 indradg      @wunder kolkata
15:44 huginn`      indradg: The current temperature in Kolkata, India is 16.0�C (8:50 PM IST on December 18, 2011). Conditions: Mist. Humidity: 82%. Dew Point: 13.0�C. Pressure: 30.01 in 1016 hPa (Steady).
15:46 magnuse      kia ora #koha
15:47 magnuse      @wunder boo
15:47 huginn`      magnuse: The current temperature in Bodo, Norway is -1.0�C (4:20 PM CET on December 18, 2011). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 75%. Dew Point: -5.0�C. Windchill: -7.0�C. Pressure: 29.50 in 999 hPa (Steady).
15:48 mbalmer_oao  @wunder koha
15:48 huginn`      mbalmer_oao: Error: No such location could be found.
15:49 jcamins      The biscuits are delicious.
15:50 magnuse      yay!
15:50 cait_afk     heh
15:55 jcamins      Biscuits with cheddar and oregano are definitely the best kind of Sunday breakfast.
15:58 magnuse      sounds nice, jcamins
16:00 jcamins      magnuse: it certainly is!
16:01 * magnuse    is making http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacalao
16:02 jcamins      Portuguese dried and salted codfish?
16:05 magnuse      well, it's funny - in norway bacalao is the name of one dish
16:06 magnuse      dried and salted cod cooked with onions, tomatoes, potatoes etc
16:06 cait_afk     it looks yummy
16:06 druthb       hi, magnuse! :D
16:06 magnuse      and in the rest of the world it's the name of the fish...
16:06 magnuse      hiya druthb
16:13 jcamins      Woohoo! AUAf Koha training is going to happen!
16:13 cait_afk     huh?
16:14 jcamins      cait_afk: the American University of Afghanistan's library staff is getting trained on Koha.
16:14 cait_afk     oh!
16:15 jcamins      A bit unfortunate that they don't use Koha, but at least they get a nice trip to India. :)
16:15 cait_afk     now I am confused
16:16 jcamins      cait_afk: they use a fork of Koha.
16:16 jcamins      The staff is flying to India to learn how to use actual Koha.
16:17 cait_afk     ok
16:17 cait_afk     still confused, where did you see it?
16:17 magnuse      yay
16:17 jcamins      cait_afk: I'm friends with the librarian there.
16:17 jcamins      cait_afk: there won't be any news of any sort.
16:20 cait_afk     ok
16:49 mbalmer_oao  magnuse, also in portuguese it's the name of the dish
16:50 mbalmer_oao  jcamins, why did they fork Koha?
16:51 jcamins      mbalmer_oao: they didn't. They purchased a fork of Koha.
16:51 mbalmer_oao  ah.  are there many such forks?
16:51 jcamins      Back before it was a fork.
16:51 jcamins      Just the one.
16:51 mbalmer_oao  a the lime stuff?
16:51 jcamins      Right.
16:52 cait_afk     oao?
16:52 * cait_afk   nick cait
16:52 mbalmer_oao  off-and-on
16:52 cait         ah
16:54 cait         hi julian_m
16:54 julian_m     hi cait ;)
16:55 magnuse      hiya bigbrovar and julian_m
16:55 julian_m     hello magnuse
17:17 indradg      @wunder kolkata
17:17 huginn`      indradg: The current temperature in Kolkata, India is 15.0�C (10:20 PM IST on December 18, 2011). Conditions: Mist. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 13.0�C. Pressure: 30.01 in 1016 hPa (Steady).
17:23 * magnus_afk wanders off to eat his bacalao...
17:24 cait         enjoy :)
19:54 mbalmer      re
20:00 mbalmer      anyone still awake?
20:15 mbalmer      are there any koha folks in paris?
21:43 mbalmer      more postgresql news, and probably contoversy, tomorrow.
21:46 eythian      postgres controversy?
21:46 eythian      It's never seemed like a controversial project to me :)
21:47 mbalmer      it will, maybe, soon be.  since I see only little sense in keeping MySQL compatability.
21:47 eythian      Oh, with Koha. Yeah, postgres would be nice.
21:48 mbalmer      yes.
21:48 eythian      we've been planning on abstracting the SQL layer away a bit, or at least the schema. This would make it easier.
21:49 mbalmer      it makes no sense to support two databases.  Koha should switch to PostgreSQL.  Which is clearly the better database.
21:49 mbalmer      but that _is_ controversial.
21:49 mbalmer      some folks will have different opinions.
21:51 eythian      yes. I don't think that'll ever fly, unfortunately.
21:52 mbalmer      oh, I think we will just fork.
21:53 mbalmer      koha-pg or so.
21:54 eythian      I sure hope you're joking :)
21:54 mbalmer      I am not.
21:54 ibeardslee   surely it'd be better to put effort into building a database abstraction layer?
21:54 eythian      they already exist.
21:54 mbalmer      MySQL is a no go for us.
21:55 eythian      as it is, it's about 95% pg compatible.
21:55 eythian      it is an only-go for many people.
21:55 mbalmer      eythian, Koha as it is will _NOT_ run on PostgreSQL.
21:55 eythian      yes, I know.
21:55 eythian      but it almost can.
21:56 mbalmer      to many stupid MYSQLisms.  some of them are easy to remove.
21:56 mbalmer      like CURDATE() or CURRENT_DATE(), which can be written as "CAST(now() AS date)" which works on both DBs
21:58 mbalmer      but then there are MySQL idioms being used that can not be rewritten portable.  So at the Perl level, different statements have to be used, depending on whether MySQl or PostgreSQL is being used.
21:59 eythian      well, they'd be the first things to move to using DBIx::something.
21:59 mbalmer      It makes no sense to support two databases…  But that is my opinion, and I will ditch MySQL in favour of PostgreSQL.
21:59 eythian      it makes a lot of sense to support two.
21:59 eythian      Some places can't/don't run mysql.
21:59 mbalmer      absolutely not.
22:00 eythian      err
22:00 eythian      *pgsql
22:00 ibeardslee   There is a lot of sense to be able to support more than two
22:00 mbalmer      no.
22:01 eythian      I'd be interested to see a performance comparison. I suspect that the MySQL query cache helps things a lot, and I don't think pgsql has an equivalent.
22:01 eythian      although, memcache should take care of the worst of that anyway
22:01 mbalmer      MySQL is a crap database.  Speed is not everything.
22:02 mbalmer      but hey, let's not get into religion ;)
22:02 eythian      speed is important however.
22:03 mbalmer      I created a pgsql branch, and maybe one day folks can try it out, and it will then maybe lead to a fork.
22:03 eythian      I don't like mysql, but I don't thing dropping support for it is at all a good idea for the project.
22:03 mbalmer      that's the great advantage of opensource, right?
22:03 mbalmer      eythian, if you don't like mysql, dropping it in favour or postgresql is the best thing you can do.
22:04 ibeardslee   personally I think also one of the weaknesses
22:04 eythian      sure, but it's a lot of work to maintain. I think the effort is best put into abstracting the SQL away to work with all sorts of databases.
22:04 mbalmer      abstraction means only using the least common denominator.
22:05 eythian      otherwise you end up having to reinvent the wheel, only this one is a slightly different colour.
22:05 mbalmer      my branch ditches MySQL in favour of PostgreSQL.  I don't believe in database abstraction layers.
22:05 mbalmer      I want to use the advanced features of PostgreSQL.
22:06 eythian      you're going to spend a lot of time merging.
22:06 mbalmer      yes, I know ;)
22:07 mbalmer      until the Koha community at large realizes that there are better databaes than MySQL ;)
22:08 eythian      it used to support pgsql, but there wasn't enough interest to keep it maintained.
22:10 mbalmer      when I see stuff like locking whole tables and such, using non-standard SQL, I get the feeling that using the database was mor of a chore than of an art.
22:11 eythian      where are there table locks? I hope we don't have those, but anything is possible.
22:11 mbalmer      there are.
22:12 mbalmer      and there are so many strange SQL uses, which are, well, strange ;)
22:12 eythian      also keep in mind that the older code didn't really have quite as much of a review process as it does now. There have been people of varying skill levels contributing over the years.
22:13 mbalmer      oh yes, I am totally aware of that.
22:13 eythian      hopefully things are better in the newer stuff :)
22:13 mbalmer      I would even say, much of the code is briliant when it comes to the "library" stuff, but less than poor when it comes to databases/SQL.
22:14 mbalmer      the DB layer and SQL use is really inconsistend and, at least partly, horrible.
22:15 eythian      yep, also there's HTML in the backend modules. Lots of things like that that need to be cleaned.
22:15 mbalmer      and now I need to pull out and take a nap ;)  cul!
22:17 eythian      later
22:20 mbalmer      one last word:  when I see how random MySQL idioms are used, and wrongly so, I am totally convinced that MySQL was choosen for no real reason besides maybe speed advantages it once had over PostgreSQL.  But that has changed a lot and PostgreSQL is nowadays ways ahead of MySQL.
22:22 eythian      pg is not universally faster (try running Drupal on it, for example.) Also, MySQL wasn't chosen so much as happened due to critical mass.