Time  Nick         Message
20:17 huginn`      bag: The current temperature in K6LCM - Westside / Mesa, Santa Barbara, California is 16.0�C (12:17 PM PST on December 17, 2011). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 54%. Dew Point: 7.0�C. Pressure: 30.03 in 1016.8 hPa (Falling).
20:17 bag          @wunder 93109
19:42 jcamins      cait: I guess I need to rewrite the rest of it so the rest is as academic-sounding. :)
19:37 cait         sounds very academic :)
19:36 jcamins      Yikes.
19:34 * jcamins    added 300 words worth of footnotes.
19:29 rangi        heh
19:29 druthb       A tag at the bottom, maybe, that says, "if you're taking this seriously, you must not actually do this for a living?"
19:29 rangi        type thing
19:29 rangi        'This exists purely to satisfy RFP type requirements, please do your own research'
19:29 rangi        maybe slightly diplomatically worded
19:28 indradg      druthb, ++
19:28 rangi        :-)
19:28 * druthb     suggests a wiki template tag that puts in "This document exists solely so that bureaucrats can check off boxes.  don't take this seriously in the real world, ever."
19:28 rangi        yup, write one, and put it on the wiki and refer to that :-)
19:27 indradg      well... for myself I do not need that doc... but these govt types are picking my brains...
19:27 jcamins      s/staying/saying/
19:27 rangi        there ya go
19:27 * jcamins    suggests a document staying "Hardware should be no less than is required, but no more than is necessary."
19:27 rangi        problem is, someone will take it seriously :)
19:26 jcamins      rangi: unless some bureaucrat wants to check off a box saying that the document exists, in which case it doesn't matter, it just needs to be there for box checking.
19:26 * druthb     notes that RFPs are usually chock-full of such useless questions.
19:25 rangi        question
19:25 rangi        its usually a how long is a piece of string
19:25 rangi        because to do so, is usually not that useful
19:25 * jcamins    encourages you to write one. :)
19:25 jcamins      indradg: I don't think so.
19:25 rangi        nope
19:25 indradg      so do we have any docs on the wiki about tentative h/w sizing guidelines? i tried to search... didn't find any
19:24 rangi        ask scls about that
19:24 jcamins      Disaster recovery.
19:24 rangi        disaster recovery
19:24 cait         dr?
19:23 rangi        its only nice if you have dr
19:23 rangi        nice until it goes down for 12 hours
19:23 * jcamins    shudders
19:23 jcamins      EC2 is nice, but Rackspace...
19:22 rangi        cloud sux
19:22 rangi        yeah
19:22 jcamins      rangi: unless you're on Rackspace.
19:22 jcamins      rangi: true.
19:22 indradg      that*
19:22 indradg      i get tat
19:22 rangi        yeah but double 10 is still small
19:21 rangi        if you dont set up your max connections and threads
19:21 jcamins      indradg: one point about the disk use for Zebra indexes: rangi is talking about the disk used by a fully-indexed database. If you're going to want the option of reindexing without totally taking down the system, you need to double the disk space requirement.
19:21 rangi        apache is the ram hog
19:20 jcamins      With both points.
19:20 jcamins      Yeah, agreed.
19:20 jcamins      Ah.
19:19 rangi        apache and mysql no
19:19 rangi        zebra would be fine with that much
19:19 rangi        512 ram is ridiculous
19:19 druthb       that's way conservative.    I've got a DB with 300K+ bibs that doesn't take up more than 7 or 8 GB for the mysql data.
19:19 rangi        but no
19:19 rangi        i thought you were talking zebra
19:19 jcamins      rangi: I wouldn't want to run a production system with <512MB of RAM at this point.
19:19 jcamins      rangi: you don't think so?
19:18 rangi        yeah i dont see that
19:18 jcamins      I'd agree with that.
19:18 indradg      hmm..k
19:18 jcamins      indradg: he's talking about total RAM.
19:18 jcamins      Huh. I think the disk space requirements for Zebra indexes must not scale linearly.
19:17 indradg      i find this on the m/l archives... but dunno if he is talking about the system in general or zebra in particular - http://lists.koha-community.org/pipermail/koha-devel/2009-March/032032.html
19:17 rangi        raw marc is well less than that
19:17 rangi        indexes
19:16 jcamins      rangi: is that the space taken up by indexes, or the space taken up by the raw MARC data?
19:16 rangi        that was 3 million bibs
19:16 rangi        10 gig
19:16 jcamins      rangi: how large is the largest Zebra DB you've worked with?
19:16 rangi        heya druthb :)
19:16 * druthb     squees and waves to rangi
19:16 jcamins      indradg: in terms of disk space, though, Zebra can take a fairly large amount.
19:15 jcamins      Apparently my inability to read is contagious. ;)
19:15 indradg      rangi, jcamins thankee!
19:15 jcamins      *50* MB.
19:15 rangi        never seen it get about about 30meg
19:15 jcamins      indradg: you're off by a zero.
19:14 * druthb     has a great long list of libraries to help provide data.
19:14 indradg      jcamins, yeah... i vaguely remember seeing something that zebra can take up to 500 MB or so
19:14 druthb       I've been meaning to do some math to correlate memory/disk vs koha size (transaction load, bib and borrower counts), but have not gotten that done.
19:14 jcamins      And I think that's a lot lower.
19:14 jcamins      I've never seen Zebra hit the default maxmem limit.
19:13 jcamins      In terms of RAM?
19:13 indradg      druthb, yep... precisely
19:13 indradg      i believe zebra can consume upto 500 MB ? jcamins druthb ?
19:13 druthb       ah-hah.  so, not a technological sticking point, but a *political* one.
19:13 jcamins      indradg: 170 libraries? Wow!
19:13 indradg      we did the rollout at 170 libraries... and now there is a new govt and want to know if there are any "koha documentation" as far as h/w sizing estimates are concerned
19:12 druthb       ;-)
19:12 jcamins      Just realized I added a zero.
19:12 jcamins      druthb: I saw 5000-12000 members.
19:11 druthb       so what ended up being the choke-point?
19:11 indradg      the boxes are essentially PC systems
19:11 druthb       for the Koha part, that should be puh-lenty.
19:11 indradg      the servers went with 320 GB SATA HDD
19:11 indradg      plus offer web-dav shared folders
19:10 druthb       yeah, sounds like, and that's good.  Should provide plenty of growth room, too, unless you put a teeny tiny hard drive on em
19:10 indradg      the server would additionally function as their web proxy with content filter and dhcp server for their 3 node LANs
19:09 jcamins      druthb: true.
19:09 indradg      druthb, jcamins i had to factor another thing.. these are govt libs... and they wont be able to upgrade in next 4 years... so yeah overbuilt the boxes a bit
19:09 druthb       Even if all of the members came in twice a day, you're still not looking at 10K transactions a day, jcamins.
19:08 jcamins      druthb: well, with that many patrons for such a small library, I can see some pretty heavy circ usage.
19:08 jcamins      I guess I would've thought wrong?
19:08 * druthb     concurs;  that actually sounds like overkill, to me.
19:08 jcamins      indradg: I would've thought that would be plenty.
19:07 indradg      jcamins, thanks :)
19:07 indradg      jcamins, sorry was on phone... these were libs with typically 25k in collections each with about 500 - 1200 members, so i had placed a Intel Core 2 Duo E7600, 3.06 GHz with 2gigs of RAM as the server
19:06 jcamins      Welcome back, indradg.
18:28 druthb       :D
18:27 cait         hi druthb :)
18:27 jcamins      \o
18:26 druthb       o/
17:36 jcamins      Uh-oh. What did you suggest?
17:36 jcamins      indradg: are you trying to figure out how large a server you need, or were you just wondering what wahanui had to say?
17:36 wahanui      bonjour, francharb
17:36 francharb    hi
17:36 indradg      its come back to haunt me
17:35 indradg      jcamins, kinda... i had proposed a config for a koha server... and now
17:34 indradg      jcamins, ah well :)
17:34 jcamins      memory for koha?
17:34 jcamins      indradg: not sure wahanui has anything about that.
17:34 indradg      koha hardware requirement?
17:33 indradg      server sizing for Koha?
12:52 * cait       waves back at Myshkin
12:50 jcamins      Myshkin says hi.
12:45 jcamins_away Good morning.
12:44 cait         hi jared :)
12:44 cait         apparently :)
12:44 jcamins_away Heh. magnuse understands sleeping in on weekends. :)
11:38 cait         waking up now? :)
11:38 cait         hey magnuse
10:25 cait         ok, have to leave, will be back later today
10:25 cait         also help people to not make the same mistakes again
10:25 cait         I think that would be good
10:21 mbalmer      I need to setup a wiki page with info on that.
10:19 mbalmer      quite some of the mysqlisms can be rewritten using standard SQL, so that's low hanging fruit
10:16 cait         yeah, it has grown a lot over the years
10:08 mbalmer      but it's a large codebase, it takes time to go through it.
10:08 mbalmer      as for right:  I found a few places where sth could be achieved with a more elegant sql statement
10:08 cait         most of the time
10:07 mbalmer      no, I did not know wahanui was a bot, but at least he is friendly ;)
10:07 cait         right?
10:07 mbalmer      I will go trhough the SQL at least two times.  First to make it compatible, second to make it right where it's not
10:05 cait         hm if you are checking all sql currently... you could perhaps also check that placeholders are properly used everywhere?
10:04 cait         :)
10:04 cait         i hope someone has told you that wahanui is our bot
10:04 cait         hm
10:03 mbalmer      yes.
09:59 wahanui      ...but mbalmer is currently going each and every file to find MySQLisms, then I can think about how to make it Pg/MySQL "compliant"...
09:59 mbalmer      wahanui, I am now up to 30 such spots...
09:58 wahanui      mbalmer: that doesn't look right
09:58 mbalmer      step:  change SQL so that it can run on both mysql and pgsql
09:54 cait         I think that is a good goal
09:50 mbalmer      it would already help if proper standard sql was being used instead of mysql idioms.
09:34 mbalmer      50% of sources checked, 16 mysqlisms so far...
05:58 cait         hi #koha
02:34 kmkale       Namaskaar #koha