Time Nick Message 00:46 chris hi druthb 00:46 druthb hi, chris! :) 00:47 chris any minute now 00:47 chris and england win 00:47 druthb yup. :) 00:48 druthb 77 runs down, and only one wicket left. tsk tsk. 00:49 druthb did they already have drinks? 00:49 chris hmm think so 00:50 druthb yah. now it's just for Swann or Anderson to seal the deal. This oughta be over by lunch. 00:51 druthb Based on highs and averages, there's just not much way for Siddle or Bollinger to have any hope of pulling this out. 00:52 druthb Both would need to exceed their records. 00:52 chris yup and looking at the averages thats pretty unlikely 00:57 chris done 00:58 druthb yup. 03:39 * Brooke waves at Oak 03:40 wasabi my 'add-new-syspref' button is missing on my 3-2rc 03:40 wasabi does it work for other folk? 03:41 * Oak hugs Brooke 03:44 wasabi … i assume ive got a goofy db, that im testing with 03:49 wasabi ahhh, click.. 03:49 wasabi "System preferences admin - local-use preferences" 03:49 Brooke @roulette 03:49 munin *BANG* Hey, who put a blank in here?! 03:49 * munin reloads and spins the chambers. 06:37 cait hi #koha 08:08 kf good morning #koha 08:09 ivanc good morning #koha 08:09 ivanc guten morgen kf 08:09 kf hi ivanc 08:12 hdl hi 08:12 ibot hey, hdl 08:41 kf morning hdl 08:41 kf the meeting is at 10pm today? 08:42 chris no 08:43 chris 10am UTC 08:43 chris on the 8th 08:43 kf chris: solr meeting - sorry 08:43 chris ah yep, that one is 08:43 kf how was the training? 08:43 chris 11am tomorrow for me, which is why i wont be there 08:43 chris starts tomorrow 08:45 chris if anyone asks i think solr is cool, but as an option to use instead of zebra, not as a forced replacement 08:45 chris so hopefully thats addressed 08:46 kf I will be there 08:46 kf memorizing your statement now ;) 08:46 chris thanks :) 08:53 kf @wunder Konstanz 08:53 munin kf: The current temperature in Taegerwilen, Taegerwilen, Germany is 4.6�C (9:50 AM CET on December 07, 2010). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 97%. Dew Point: 4.0�C. Windchill: 5.0�C. Pressure: 29.62 in 1002.9 hPa (Rising). 08:53 kf :) and sun! 08:57 kmkale hi all 08:57 kf hi kmkale 09:02 kmkale hi kf 09:47 kf hi kmkale 09:48 kf jcamins: around? 09:55 kf what's the correct status of a bug after sign-off? 10:59 kf silent today 11:00 Fred hello 11:09 kf hi Fred 11:11 slef kf: I just screamed on-list. 11:13 kf slef: you sure tehy changed? 11:15 slef kf: either that or doodle is buggy. http://doodle.com/participation/calendar.html?pollId=2eh7spytgmydduca 11:15 slef bbl 11:24 kmkale kf got a minute? 11:30 kf let me finish this - 5 minutes 11:32 kmkale cool 11:45 kf kmkale: I am here 12:43 laurenthd slef : Bloody hell. 12:44 laurenthd doodle was displaying Europe time. 12:44 laurenthd And I thought it was displaying UTC 12:44 kf yeah, got a bit confused too 12:44 kf :) 12:44 laurenthd slef: I will post a fix for that. 12:44 laurenthd Would 20 UTC fit you ? 12:45 kf laurenthd: he told me he will be back in 4 hours 12:45 kf (12:17:08) slef: bbi 4h 12:46 kf ... 16? 12:48 Fred I got a question about a weird way to act of advanced search : if i choose to request on Local number from adv search page (index 'sn') i've no answers...but if i type 'sn=x' Koha give me what i want. Any idea from where the problem could come from? 12:49 kf perhaps the form is creating the wrong search statement? 12:52 Fred it seems to use sn,wrdl= x of what i can see 12:55 kf Fred: what version of koha are you using? 12:57 Fred 3.02.00.004 12:58 fredericd Fred: UNIMARC or MARC21? 12:58 fredericd hi kf 12:58 Fred Unimarc 12:59 kf hi fredericd 12:59 fredericd do you know where is you biblio records.abs file? 12:59 Fred yes 13:00 fredericd take a look at Local-number field. Verify that you have a 'w' index on it 13:00 Fred ok let me check that 13:01 Fred Local-number,Local-number:n seems enough? 13:01 fredericd no 13:01 fredericd Local-number,Local-number:n,Local-number:w 13:02 Fred ok, then it has changed since previous version? 13:02 fredericd obviously 13:02 fredericd the advanced search template must have changed 13:03 Fred ok, i am adding the 'w' then 13:04 fredericd do it, reindex, and tell me if it works: then a patch must be send (will do it) 13:05 Fred ok 13:14 Fred doesn t work 13:19 fredericd Fred: Have already modified you records.abs in the past? Where is your Koha biblionumber in your biblio record? In standard field? 13:19 nengard laurenthd I emailed you - i can email to the docs list, but i can't administer it anymore ... the password appears to have changed. 13:25 Fred yes already modified record.abs, biblionumber is on 090$9 13:35 fredericd Fred: it can be tricky. For me, your issue comes from zebra config. But it's very difficult to say where exactly without access to your config 13:37 Fred yes i understand, could i see something in logs? 13:40 fredericd Fred: yes, that's a good idea. You can try to do a tail -f <koha-zebra-log.err> file. See what happens when you do the request which fails 13:43 owen Hi #koha 13:44 kf hi owen 13:47 Fred ok let me try to explore koha-zebra-log.err 13:54 Fred sorry i am always a bit lost with those log files, his name is koha-zebra-log.err? 13:57 fredericd not exactly... Go you Koha var/log directory. Find the file which contain zebra and ends with .err 13:57 Fred ok 13:58 fredericd or ends with .log... 14:00 Fred hmm got only koha-zebradaemon-output.log or koha-zebradaemon.err 14:10 * owen wonders how many votes a "user friendly framework editor" needs to get before it appears out of thin air 14:15 hdl Fred koha-zebradaemon-output.log that's the one. 14:16 hdl Fred and you can also come onto koha-fr if you want 14:22 Fred thanks, need to explore that file, and will come asap on koha-fr too (need to get used with IRC first) 14:26 Fred is it possible it comes from koha more than zebra, and from search.pl specially? 15:02 hdl Fred : could come from some of the system preferences. 15:03 hdl Fred : you can test with CLI to see whether it answer basic queries. 15:06 Fred i ve been looking at how zebrasrv going live, i found some weird things 15:07 drulm all is quiet on the open source front 15:08 Fred something like : Search biblios ERROR 114 1 1+0 RPN @attrset Bib-1 @or @or @attr 1=12 @attr 4=1 @attr 6=3 @attr 9=32 @attr 2=102 820 @attr 1=12 @attr 4=1 @attr 9=26 @attr 2=102 820 @attr 1=12 @attr 5=1 @attr 4=6 @attr 9=26 @attr 2=102 820 15:09 drulm Q: is anyone talking about how moving to Solr in terms of having a z39.50 server? Is there a way to do this with Solr or will Zebra still need to be in there just for the z39.50, alternatives? 15:09 drulm Perhaps this could be a question for the upcoming meeting 15:10 fredericd Fred: that's it! (si je puis dire) 15:12 Fred good :) 15:13 laurenthd drulm: we are developping a solr2RPN module. 15:14 hdl drulm: no in fact we are developping an RPN2solr module. 15:15 hdl And plan to use that in a Z3950 server. 15:16 drulm Nice 15:16 hdl Fred : it seems that you have a problem with relevancy. Check that you have Title-host defined and used. 15:17 owen koha.org strikes again. 15:17 jcamins owen++ # for being really fast 15:17 Fred ok 15:18 wizzyrea1 heh 15:18 wizzyrea1 and I was all worried that I had done something dumb and forgotten to update the download page on k-c.org 15:19 jcamins owen: that's a great subject line for an e-mail... "Blood" 15:27 * slef tries to thaw out 15:33 Fred Title-host is defined in record.abs, not in bib1 or ccl 16:11 nengard Bleh .. got to airport too early.. wish traffic was more predictible 16:13 owen Bonus airport time! 16:13 wizzyrea boo airport time 16:18 nengard Heh 16:19 nengard_ love me some tethering :) 16:19 rhcl I'd love to have your ff miles. 16:19 nengard_ heh 16:19 sekjal nengard_: is your tethering more reliable? 16:19 nengard_ I'm actually only silver - thought I'd make gold this year but it doesn't look like I will 16:19 sekjal I made a change on mine that seems to help[ 16:20 nengard_ sekjal, more reliable than what? it has seemed more reliable lately in general 16:20 sekjal than before 16:20 nengard_ oh - which tethering app were you using? 16:20 sekjal Wireless Tether 16:20 nengard_ i'm on easytether 16:20 sekjal ah 16:20 nengard_ wireless tether i wasn't able to make it work 16:24 Fred still with my zebra searching error : i ve added some attributes to 'sn' in ccl.properties (4=109 2=3 3=1 perhaps a bit too much?) and now searching is going fine... 16:27 Fred Thanks for all the help provided! 16:36 fredericd Fred: No it's good. In the normal ccl file, sn seems to be configured to search the 'w' (word) index rather than the 'n' (numeric) 16:37 fredericd with your modif, you search the numeric index, strict equality and first in field (which can't be bad) 16:39 Fred oh great :) 16:41 fredericd Fred: You could go intro trouble tomorrow if your sn index is populated with non-numeric values, otherwise it's ok 16:43 Fred ok i note it, i was about asking about possible troubles as i was not sure to have 'really' resolved the main problem 16:45 wizzyrea damn you apple − w 16:48 jcamins wizzyrea: I'm sure chris would point out that's not a problem on free OSes. 16:48 jcamins ;) 16:48 wizzyrea sure it is ;) 16:49 wizzyrea it's just another key + w 16:49 wizzyrea :D 16:49 jcamins No, it's Ctrl+W. :P 16:49 jcamins Completely different. 16:49 wizzyrea mmm hmm. 16:49 wizzyrea they also make you cookies for breakfast 16:49 wizzyrea and bring world peace 16:50 brendan world peace++ 16:50 jcamins Yep. 16:50 jcamins If it weren't for thre three of us, apparently there would be. 16:50 wizzyrea >.< 16:50 trea rabblerousers, the whole lot :D 16:53 jcamins Okay, time to head out. 16:54 jcamins So long, #koha. 16:54 Fred good bye everyone! 16:55 nengard_ plane at gate 16:55 nengard_ talk to you all later 16:55 wizzyrea bye 16:55 wizzyrea bleh 16:56 hdl Fred fredericd : as a side note, be warned that completeness or firstinfield doesnot seem to work in icu, 16:56 hdl in that case, n is not indexed with icu. So would not be a problem. 16:56 hdl But... It is better when you know. 16:58 owen Hmmm... Nifty new feature fails in IE8. Wondering how much I should care... 16:59 fredericd hdl: thanks for the info 16:59 hdl i think it is owed to the way that icu is processing the chains. 17:00 wizzyrea which nifty feature 17:00 fredericd it may work with DOM, which requires works, a lot of... 17:02 owen wizzyrea: Bug 5285 17:02 munin 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5285 enhancement, P5, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED, Let the user choose columns to show batch modification summary table 17:02 owen (at least I think it's nifty) 17:02 wizzyrea oo yea 17:04 jwagner owen, there are still LOTS of sites whose IT departments only allow them to use IE, so I'd be leery of adding something that is known not to work in even the latest IE. 17:05 owen Never ceases to amaze me... the slowest, most insecure browser... 17:05 jwagner I know. Don't think I haven't pointed that out at GREAT length.... 17:06 owen I guess I'll just hide this feature away and hope IE9 is better. Or maybe IE10. 17:06 * owen puts it in a crate next to the Ark of the Covenant 17:06 jwagner It can't be done in some other way? The idea is definitely nifty. 17:07 trea heh 17:07 owen In some other way? As in with no CSS or Javascript? Maybe... 17:07 * owen stabs himself with a pen 17:07 * jwagner doesn't know what tools owen is using, so doesn't know what to suggest 17:08 * jwagner is also not a web developer so wouldn't have any ideas along that line anyway :-( 17:12 * owen hides the whole feature from IE 17:12 wizzyrea owen++ 17:19 wizzyrea hm, I guess the conversation about required versions of things died 17:22 * chris waves from the wellington airport 17:22 wizzyrea where ya headed? 17:22 chris Bucklame 17:23 wizzyrea teehee 17:23 chris 2 days of training and then a go live 17:23 * jwagner hopes it isn't too windy at the airport.... 17:23 wizzyrea fun fun 17:23 wizzyrea our flight out was perfectly lovely ^.^ 17:24 jwagner Both of mine were rather bouncy. 17:24 chris Nope, mind you this must literally be the 100th time I've flown out of here bounces don't bother me 17:24 wizzyrea coming in on the other hand... 17:25 jwagner I did have my doubts about landing, watching as we kept descending -- "I don't _THINK_ I booked a seaplane!" 17:26 wizzyrea the day we did it we had to have at least 2 whacks at the landing 17:27 jwagner Next time I go to Wellington, I'm driving or taking the train down from Auckland.... 17:29 chris Pshaw 17:29 chris If you didn't actually bounce 17:29 chris Its all good 17:29 * jwagner congratulates chris on his native insouciance! 17:29 trea heh 17:29 wizzyrea plus there hasn't yet been a crash 17:29 chris Nope never 17:30 wizzyrea but I imagine the train ride, after 13 hours on a plane, would be a lovely change from yet more airport. 17:30 * chris has bounced, and landed hard twice 17:30 chris In fog 17:30 trea erg 17:30 chris That was fun 17:30 wizzyrea lol don't tell trea that! 17:30 trea did they all clap when you were stopped 17:30 trea hehe 17:30 chris Yep 17:30 wizzyrea well they clapped on ours too 17:30 trea that was pretty much worth it imo 17:31 chris Well those not from wellington anyway :) 17:31 wizzyrea though the flight attendants did tell us to toughen up ;) 17:31 wizzyrea we lol'd 17:31 chris Landing at the old hong kong airport was more scary 17:31 chris Look up kai tak landings on youtube 17:32 wizzyrea !!!! 17:32 rhcl yep, HK was an experience. Flying right between buildings. 17:32 chris I only did that twice 17:32 chris And planes did crash there 17:32 chris Ok boarding, spotya 17:32 wizzyrea later safe travels 17:33 rhcl syl 18:03 mib_lvwvr hello everybody! how I can activate the cron fines? 18:06 mib_lvwvr could somebody help me, please. 18:06 cait fredericd: around? 18:07 mib_lvwvr how I can activate the fines.pl 18:08 cait you can start it manually for testing, but in production ou will want to use a cronjob to start it regularl 18:08 cait y 18:11 mib_lvwvr como configuro el cron? 18:11 mib_lvwvr how to set up cron? 18:11 owen mib_lvwvr: I suggest you google "how to set up cron" 18:14 fredericd cait: yes, almost 18:15 cait ah, was reading your mail about the sys prefs 18:15 fredericd you may not agree :-) 18:15 cait I have not looked at 3.2 yet, but I imagine the problem exists there too 18:16 cait we will loose some featurs (like translations for salutations) by using the english files - but i think it's still the way to go 18:16 fredericd yes, 3.2 is a stable version and is not supposed to have entering a lot of new syspref 18:16 cait only voting for a fast solution, that we can perhaps port back to 3.2 18:16 cait yes, but what about the existing files? 18:17 fredericd can't we keep them for 3.2 and remove them on HEAD when a patch will force using exlusively 'en' syspref SQL file? 18:17 cait we can 18:18 cait but I will fix the German sys pref file if we will do that 18:18 cait for 3.21 18:18 fredericd yes and german syspref file seems almost up to date 18:18 cait it's the newest file 18:19 cait the other translations are older 18:19 cait German was added near or in feature freeze of 3.2 - so I am lucky here 18:19 cait and it's not really translated, only things like father, mother, mrs. mr. etc. 18:20 cait but I am still not happy knowing about the problem in the other files :( 18:24 cait hi Nate 18:24 Nate hiya cait! 18:27 cait fredericd: it's me - low bug tolerance ;) 18:29 fredericd it's a tribute to you :-) 18:33 cait fredericd: not so sure :) 18:35 slef I'd not heard that called tethering before. Live and learn. 18:44 cait slef: so you can explain the term to me? 18:45 slef Tethering in cellular wireless is the connection of a non-mobile device (e.g. desktop computer, notebook computer, laptop computer), to a mobile device (e.g. cell phone, PDA) for the purpose of wireless Internet access by the non-mobile "tethered" device. Examples of a tethered connection include: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethering 18:45 slef 18:46 slef I think we called it PAN (personal area networking) or mifi (mobile-to-wifi), but it might be something slightly different. 18:46 cait thx - should have checked wikipedia - only tried leo to get a translation 18:47 slef I've a two-line script called "wp" to do quick lookups: 18:47 slef PROXY="$*" 18:47 slef host -aQ "${PROXY// /_}.wp.dg.cx" | sed -e 's/" "//g;s/"$//;s/\\"/"/g;s/^.* "//' 18:47 slef 18:47 slef 18:47 cait ? 18:48 slef so I typed "wp tethering" to get the above explanation 18:48 slef It's not the more understanable script ever ;-) 18:50 cait yeah, looks like magic 18:51 cait ok, time to destroy my kitchen in an attempt to make pumkin soup 18:55 slef ohyeah... Did I ask the newzealanders why they had so many pumpkins on the menu in their spring? Do they grow a lot there, or are they imported? 19:00 cait no idea :) 19:01 wizzyrea http://www.pumpkinnook.com/commune/nzgrowers.htm but it looks like their pumpkin harvest is in march (seems likely, as that's fall) 19:03 wizzyrea and yet more: http://www.gardengrow.co.nz/plant/Pumpkin 19:03 wizzyrea plant in oct/nov/dec 19:03 wizzyrea though I guess in the north you can plant them anytime between August and Feb 19:04 wizzyrea so yea, that's probably why they have lots of pumpkin, because they've got several different climates conducive to pumpkin growing nearly year round 19:09 cait wizzyrea++ :) 19:10 wizzyrea < is not an expert, however, just sayin 19:17 sylvar What's the usual practice for handling complicated names for borrowers? For example, would Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. have a surname of "King, Jr.", a firstname of "Martin Luther", and a title of "Dr."? 19:18 wizzyrea that's how we do it 19:18 * sylvar won't get into names like "Rasd-Coduresa Diziet Embless Sma da' Marenhide" ;) 19:19 wizzyrea O.O 19:19 sylvar Fictional. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture#Names 19:19 wizzyrea :) 19:31 darling helo koha land 19:32 wizzyrea mornin darling 19:37 brendan morning 19:38 hdl hi there. 19:38 owen sylvar: We do surname = "King, Jr." 19:39 sylvar Cool. Thanks, owen & wizzyrea. 19:39 cait hi brendan and hdl 19:39 chris_n cait && fredericd: I'm about finished adding missing sysprefs to the other language .sql files, but they are not translated of course 19:39 owen sylvar: And we do it that way so that interactions with the patron make sense. You don't want end up sending a notice to "Dr. Martin Jr. Luther King" 19:39 cait chris_n++++ 19:39 chris_n that will fix the failed tests 19:40 cait and thx for telling - I was about starting with it hehe 19:40 chris_n but something needs to be determined *and* posted on the coding section of the wiki and announced on the list 19:40 cait yeah 19:40 chris_n so that we don't continue with a mixture 19:40 owen Now cait you have to give him a single: 19:40 * cait thinks that too 19:40 owen chris_n++ 19:40 cait chris_n++? 19:41 * chris_n wonders if some of the prefs the test states need to be removed really are just not in the en .sql file yet 19:41 chris_n and so we lose new prefs that way 19:41 owen I don't think they count if you do four ++++ 19:41 cait chris_n: what are the prefs it complains about? 19:42 chris_n fredericd: if your explanation is the current mode, then I have no problem 19:42 chris_n cait: too may to list 19:42 cait an example? 19:42 * chris_n semi-automated the updating based on the output of the test script 19:42 cait ah 19:42 clrh Hello everybody 19:43 cait hi clrh 19:43 * cait needs to do such cool things too 19:43 cait needs to learn how to do... 19:45 cait hi Brooke 19:45 Brooke howdy :) 19:45 bigbrovar hi guys 19:45 Brooke hi bigbrovar. 19:46 bigbrovar hello Brooke 19:46 cait chris_n: if the files are fixed now I think we should maintain them in HEAD - or find another solution soon 19:47 wizzyrea I wonder if we can remove the patron notes fields now that we have the messaging system 19:48 wizzyrea spose you'd have to find a way to migrate that data into the messages 19:48 wizzyrea migrate existing* data 19:48 cait wizzyrea: I think having different ways is nice 19:48 Brooke cait++ 19:49 wizzyrea I think it's confusing 19:49 wizzyrea but that's just me 19:49 cait wizzyrea: you can hide them with jquery ;) 19:49 wizzyrea it's like belt + suspenders 19:49 wizzyrea of course you can. 19:53 cait hi druthb :) 19:53 druthb hi, cait. :) 19:53 * Brooke offers druthb a G&T. 19:53 cait G&T? 19:53 * druthb takes it, and sips carefully. 19:53 hdl hi all. 19:53 * cait sniffs a little because she never gets what Brooke says ;) 19:54 Brooke Clearly I need to pick up more German, Cait. 19:54 druthb Gin and tonic, cait. :) 19:54 cait thx :) 19:54 cait or I need to work on my vocabulary :) 19:55 Brooke prolly wouldn't help. I am guilty of vast logical leaps and far too much humour. 19:57 * Brooke is steeling herself for waking early on the morrow. 19:57 chris_n cait: I agree, and as fredericd notes, they may not need translation due to the .pref files now 19:58 wizzyrea brooke: i'm surprised you're even here ^.^ 19:58 hdl about to start meeting on solr ? 19:58 hdl Hi Colin 19:58 Colin Hi 19:58 Brooke Hi Colin 19:58 * slef tries to thaw out 19:58 cait chris_n: we loose some small things by using english translation though - but things you can fix without sql - standard salutations, relationship names 19:59 * Brooke hands slef a G&T. 19:59 * hdl will try to do some semi automated minutes 19:59 hdl #startmeeting solr search 7 December 19:59 munin Meeting started Tue Dec 7 20:00:45 2010 UTC. The chair is hdl. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:59 munin Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:59 hdl Hi all 19:59 slef hi hdl! 20:00 hdl First we could make a call of the persons and then begin on the agenda I published from the email. 20:00 hdl http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/7_December_2010 20:01 * hdl = Henri-Damien LAURENT, BibLibre 20:01 thd Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City 20:01 druthb == D Ruth Bavousett, Washington DC 20:01 * slef = MJ Ray, worker-owner, software.coop 20:01 * clrh Claire Hernandez, Biblibre 20:01 Colin Colin Campbell PTFS-Europe 20:01 wizzyrea Liz Rea, NEKLS, Lurking 20:02 cait Katrin Fischer, BSZ 20:02 owen Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library, lurking 20:02 cfouts Clay Fouts, PTFS/LibLime 20:02 darling Reed Wade, Catalyst 20:02 * jcamins_a = Jared Camins-Esakov, C & P Bibliography Services, lurking 20:03 hdl ok. If anyone arrives late please chime in. 20:04 hdl #topic Why we investigated solr 20:04 hdl Reasons why we investiguated was that 20:04 hdl everyone agreed that C4::Search needed deep revamping. 20:05 hdl And we have had many problems with the actual implementation of zebra in Koha 20:05 chris_n Chris Nighswonger, FBC 20:05 hdl problems with the hard coded indexes 20:06 hdl Problem with the untranslatable strings from search 20:06 hdl Problem with the unability for users to order the indexes on advanced search page. 20:06 hdl Problem also with the search engine itself : 20:07 hdl It proved quite a nightmare to know if indexing was ok. 20:07 hdl It also proved that some announced features were not quite meeting the demand. 20:08 hdl (facets, but also icu is quite disapointing.... since all the features in RPN are not embedded. 20:08 hdl Completeness for instance. 20:08 hdl And left truncation). 20:08 hdl All this has already been said... 20:09 hdl But I want to tell the context that prompted us into invetigating. 20:09 clrh #link http://www.biblibre.com/en/blog/entry/solr-developments-for-koha 20:09 hdl any problem with what i am stating... ? 20:09 thd The untranslatable strings problem is mistaken if the query is intercepted for translation or if a translation is provided for CCL, CQL, Solr/Lucene, etc. query configuration.. 20:10 hdl well when you go on the results page. 20:10 hdl it is truly ccl search that is printed. 20:10 hdl ti,wrdl=huckleberry finn 20:10 hdl Is not user friendly. 20:11 hdl And More, some usage we are now doing of zebra is announced to be obsolete... 20:11 thd Certainly, but the user unfriendliness could be factored out and translated to the unfriendly form if the query is intercepted. 20:12 hdl we are using grs1 when DOM indexing is favoured... but would have required much time to build... 20:12 slef Well, I think my problems with solr and my doubts with some of the accusations against zebra I've stated on the list, so I won't repeat them here unless you want them repeated. 20:13 hdl And most of the xslt embedded are cut out for USMARC where UNIMARC is not supporter. 20:13 slef I agree that some of the problems are with our usage of it, though, so C4::Search probably must change anyway. 20:13 hdl ok slef... I will talk about what solr would bring along. and what we did... 20:14 hdl #topic solr : what it brings along and what we did 20:14 thd Some of the problems are problems of adding UNIMARC support which is a problem that does not go away by using Solr/Lucene. 20:14 darling slef, hdl -- depends on if the topic is "swap/deprecate zebra for solr" or "add support for solr as an alt search engine" 20:14 Nate Nate Curulla, ByWater Solutions... Sorry for the lateness 20:14 hdl thd part of it yes. 20:15 hdl Solr brings along a widely used search engine. 20:15 hdl With the ability to do full text indexing of documents. 20:15 hdl And with many built in features. 20:15 hdl utf8 support 20:15 hdl facets. 20:16 hdl And all the things we explain in the blog. 20:16 rhcl rhcl = Greg Lawson, Rolling Hills Consolidated Library, lurker 20:16 hdl darling: I acknowledge that solr should be an option. 20:17 hdl But change in a search engine in an ILS is quite strategic. 20:17 ibot hdl: that doesn't look right 20:17 * druthb giggles at ibot. 20:17 thd Solr/Lucene uses Java ICU which based on the same core ICU code as the C ICU used in Zebra. 20:17 hdl But we have limited time. 20:18 hdl And limited ressource. 20:18 cait hdl: so you are not implementing it as an option? 20:18 hdl cait at the moment, no. 20:18 hdl Because we signed and are due to deliver a product on a specific time. 20:19 hdl So we made a choice. 20:19 hdl And we try to do it so that zebra can then be reintroduced. 20:19 cait I think there are valid concerns about solr - so that it should at least be an option at first 20:19 thd ICU = International Components for Unicode a well supported project providing a Unicode programming library supported by IBM etc. 20:20 hdl thd icu support in zebra is rather poor compared to the icu syntax and possibility. 20:20 cait I am concerned about replacing it so fast - as you said it's an important feature of an ILS 20:21 hdl cait: we are trying to gather all the use cases so that features are not lost. 20:21 hdl We are building on top of Data::SearchEngine and Data::Pagination 20:21 thd As hdl identifies, the method of calling the ICU in Zebra is an awkward add on from the point when Zebra had no Unicode support. 20:21 clrh #link http://search.cpan.org/~gphat/Data-SearchEngine-0.16/lib/Data/SearchEngine.pm 20:22 hdl Data::SearchEngine can be adapted in order to build RPN and CCL queries and work nicely with zebra. 20:22 hdl I bet it is doable. 20:22 hdl But again, we have limited ressources. 20:22 hdl And limitted time. 20:23 hdl We work as crazy in order to make the whole change and have some very promising results. 20:23 clrh #link http://catalogue.solr.biblibre.com/ 20:24 clrh #link http://solr.biblibre.com/ 20:24 hdl the two interfaces we built are there for you to try, test. 20:24 hdl On intranet there is a demo/demo account. 20:24 thd There is an English expression, if you break it you have bought it which must have an equivalent in many languages. However, most of us recognise that the work should be done and is of importance to everyone. 20:25 drulm Hello. git version question: I am drawing from git://git.koha-community.org/koha.git 20:25 hdl You can then see the how the indexes can be edited and queried. 20:25 wizzyrea drulm: we're in a meeting 20:25 slef drulm: /msg me please, a meeting is on. 20:25 hdl and then you can see the page for indexes : 20:26 clrh #link http://solr.biblibre.com/cgi-bin/koha/solr/indexes.pl 20:26 hdl you can add some indexes, and link them to the index user define. 20:26 hdl And there are some plugins that we can add. 20:26 hdl We already designed plugins as to search for rejected forms. 20:27 hdl And usage of authorities in biblio records. 20:27 hdl At the moment, 20:27 hdl we gather use cases sa as not to loose any query that we could do in zebra. 20:28 thd hdl: I am concerned that CCL, Pazpar2, and Zebra support should not be an either that or Solr/Lucene option. We need CCL and Pazpar2 for metasearch and we currently need Zebra for a Z39.50/SRU server. 20:28 clrh #ŀink https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AuZF5Y_c4pIxdEVzTjUtUGFoQnFpSkpfbTU5Ykc3b2c&hl=en&output=html 20:28 hdl thd : in the commits of the wip/solr branch of our git, 20:29 hdl you can see the first commits for a Z3950 search engine on top of solr... 20:29 hdl using SimpleServer 20:29 hdl At the moment, the queries decoded are only simple queries. 20:29 clrh #link http://git.biblibre.com/?p=koha;a=blob;f=misc/z3950.pl;h=b373b7308f7133ab3f1a6698e2089a3cd7263940;hb=refs/heads/wip/solr 20:29 hdl But we will work by the end of the year to have something. 20:30 hdl more powerful and answering the needs. 20:30 thd hdl: It is the limitation of query support which concerns me for the Z39.50/SRU server as we have to write that ourselves. 20:30 thd ... for SimpleServer, 20:31 hdl Well, since JZ3950 was proven to be quite ... disappointing. 20:31 hdl We will build a grammar.... 20:31 thd hdl: Do you mean JZKit? 20:31 hdl thd: yes. 20:32 hdl It seems that memory consumption goes exploding. 20:33 hdl thd: have you been in contact with the company working on that ? 20:33 hdl Is there some fix for that ? 20:33 thd I have investigated JZKit deeply as well as options from Index Data. 20:34 thd I do not have a full set of responses but have been writing a detailed report for the RFC. 20:34 thd The only hope of fixing issues is a support contract. 20:35 thd Even some cryptic options in SimpleServer would need a support contract to understand well. 20:35 hdl Well we envision a support contract, but more on solr issues than on zebra or z3950. 20:35 thd Simple2Zoom is another option in principle for a Z39.50/SRU server. 20:35 slef On the exploding memory consumption theme: my big concern with solr is *its* memory usage (reportedly at least a gigabyte, more than all of koha 3.0 including a base OS, which would mean more expensive servers would be needed for koha libraries). How is solr memory usage on biblibre servers? 20:36 hdl well, it has been quite slow. even indexing 300000 biblios. 20:36 hdl We never stressed it severely though. 20:37 hdl But it is a thing we will do. 20:37 thd I personally favour SimpleServer at the moment but Ian Ibbotson from Knowledge Integration and Sebastian Hammer from Index Data indirectly alerted me to an important problem for having a Z39,50/SRU server. 20:37 darling for what it's worth, at Catalyst we use it from time to time -- there are setups than run very smoothly and make no trouble; there are some where it sometimes goes insane 20:38 darling we have a practise of putting each solr intance on an isolated vm for that reason 20:39 thd hdl: How do you intend to return full MARC records for a Z39.50/SRU server when using Solr/Lucene? 20:39 Brooke what would be a reasonable benchmark? 20:39 Colin Did you evaluate any other options apart from Solr? 20:39 hdl indexing marcxml data or even iso2709 20:39 Brooke and how do we compare apples to apples with the current iterations absent performance guidelines? 20:40 hdl Colin: other options could be Nutch or so... 20:40 darling I'm working on a project right now that's indexing about 40k documents of about 5k of structured text each and it's so far not been trouble -- and it's very fast and sweet -- but tricky to configure and gives unclear error messages when it fails -- I like it but don't yet trust it 20:40 hdl But solr is quite a standard nowadays. 20:40 thd hdl: Solr/Lucene corrupts ISO2709 records. Lucene has a binary storage type which Solr/Lucene does not. 20:40 slef Who has declared it a standard? 20:41 cait hdl: I think you can not argument everybody else is using it 20:41 thd hdl: The experience of BlackLight is very informative on the issue of storing full bibliographic records in Solr/Lucene. 20:41 darling slef, it's widely used engouh that I would call it a standardish solution 20:41 hdl slef: at least, it is wide spread. and is doing quite a good job "out of the box." 20:41 cait I really have a bad feeling about a hasty replacement 20:41 hdl and i know at least 4 solutions using solr. 20:42 hdl cait it may not be for 3.4 20:42 cait we should start with an option, if most people start using it we can drop zebra perhaps sometime in the future 20:42 slef darling: those are the same sort of arguments which lead to calling Windows "standard" which I don't ;-) 20:42 thd hdl: Which 4 solutions do you mean? 20:42 darling slef, fair enough 20:42 hdl But I think that we had to share the point we achieved. 20:42 Brooke cait++ 20:43 druthb cait++ 20:43 hdl Vufind, BlackLight, Drupal and XC (but it is durpal based) 20:43 thd slef: MS Windows standard :) 20:43 hdl We had no time doing that. 20:44 cait all those are discovery interfaces - no ILs 20:44 slef drupal uses solr? I thought it was some extension module 20:44 hdl And it is really time consuming without any tests... or use case... to build regression tests. 20:44 clrh it is an extension module more and more used slef 20:44 thd hdl: in the case of the OPACS such as VuFind and BlackLight remember that they are merely OPACs with the real library system and its own OPAC underneath. 20:44 darling cait++, and I would expect that the integration would be in such a way that would facilitate slipping in things other than solr later (or sooner, like for smaller setups) 20:45 hdl darling: Data::SearchEngine::Zebra... COULD be written. 20:45 slef clrh: which still doesn't make it drupal. 20:45 darling (our use of solr here is mostly for drupal sites we run) 20:45 hdl But we donot have any ressource on that. 20:45 hdl C4::Search Had to be revamped... 20:46 hdl And we began the work. And we come to you in order to show you what we achieved. 20:46 hdl And say we are at this point of the road... 20:47 hdl But we won't be able to do the whole lot alone... 20:47 hdl And it would just be insane. 20:47 thd hdl: I will add a more important case to your count which at least demonstrates scalability in a relatively simple configuration if money is spent on hardware. Wikipedia uses Lucene indexing via some extensions. If it scales for Wikipedia it can really scale with the hardware caveat. 20:48 thd No one should expect BibLibre to do this alone any more than we expected LibLime to add Zebra support alone. 20:48 Brooke thd++ 20:48 hdl Installer should be ok with solr now. We have an installing option for solr core support. 20:49 cait thd: noZebra was kept as an option 20:49 hdl (but yes, only solr) 20:49 Brooke what can't be expected is collaboration for a BibLibre deadline when other individuals have their own timeframes and projects. 20:49 thd LibLime funded support contracts for Zebra on their own but that was not necessarily a reasonable option. 20:49 hdl cait : but quite rapidly deprecated. 20:49 hdl Brooke: I donot ask for more than what ppl are willing to do. 20:50 hdl At least just consider what we do... 20:50 Brooke I am aware of that. It is important to note that distinction, too. 20:50 hdl And let us work together... rather than in // 20:50 Brooke How do we reconcile profitability with community? Agility with stability? 20:51 Brooke Today it is solr/zebra, tomorrow it will be something else. 20:51 hdl use cases and regression tests. 20:51 hdl look at the ggl page. 20:51 hdl you have your use cases : add yours 20:51 hdl you think of a use case. 20:51 hdl add itt 20:51 thd cait: I agree with the assertion which paul_p has made, that long term support for multiple record indexing models has proven too much for the size of the Koha project support community in the past. 20:52 slef I'll poll our libraries, but I suspect the concerns of needing java and lots more memory will outweigh the benefits, including some of the claims I questioned without any reply. 20:52 hdl there are plenty ways to do. 20:52 hdl slef: I will try and assing all the questions you asked. 20:52 slef I don't think there's any point polling our members for whether we could fund it from our community fund because it involves java, which is no fun. 20:52 slef What's the ggl page? 20:53 clrh #link https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/biblibre.com/ccc?key=0AuZF5Y_c4pIxdEVzTjUtUGFoQnFpSkpfbTU5Ykc3b2c&hl=en#gid=1 20:53 thd cait: I agree with you that we should retain options until we are satisfied that the Solr/Lucene solution is ready to replace Zebra for local indexing. 20:53 clrh oups maybe bad link 20:53 darling I have to run off to a mtg right now. My parting thoughts are: solr is tasty but not a simple option, I suspect we will be glad once it's in and , pocket sized installations shouldn't have to use it 20:53 slef clrh: "Sign in to your account at BibLibre"? 20:53 clrh #link https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AuZF5Y_c4pIxdEVzTjUtUGFoQnFpSkpfbTU5Ykc3b2c&hl=en&output=html 20:53 clrh better? 20:54 hdl in the 5 last minutes. 20:54 darling slef, integrating w/it doesn't mean needing to deal w/java (though app server config matters would be a thing) 20:54 hdl #topic what could be done 20:54 slef clrh: how do I add "run on a 512Mb server" to it? ;-) 20:54 hdl Data::SearchEgine::Zebra 20:55 hdl could be written with a Data::SearchEngine::Query 20:55 hdl We could also build dynamically fomrs 20:55 hdl We could achieve relevancy. 20:56 hdl And do some on the fly weighting. 20:56 slef yeah, this is a basic problem I'm having... what's the incentive for someone to write||fund Data::SearchEngine::Zebra? Zebra currently works for most people most of the time. 20:56 hdl most people... not in France. 20:57 hdl slef: have you ever tried to fix a C4::Search bug ? 20:57 hdl Have you ever dived into that code ? 20:57 hdl It really needed revamping. 20:57 thd slef One hopes that the work involved in refactoring Zebra support to not be the only option would be very much less than the work in adding Solr/Lucene support. 20:58 hdl We began the work. 20:58 hdl And tried to do something quite SearchEngine Independant. 20:58 slef hdl: I've no memory and searching suggests not. 20:58 hdl of what ? 20:58 thd hdl++ SearchEngine independence 20:58 slef <hdl> slef: have you ever tried to fix a C4::Search bug ? 20:59 cait hdl: sorry, I think it could be improved, but saying it does not work at all seems not right to me 20:59 slef thd: sure, but it's still not zero. 20:59 hdl cait: I donot say it doesnot work at all. 20:59 hdl It works. 20:59 thd slef: Yes, which is why BibLibre is hoping that you will help. 20:59 hdl But not always. and not on all the features it claims to provide. 21:00 hdl For instance availability search is not working. 21:01 hdl We are trying to make it so that what we claim to do. We actually do. 21:02 hdl It is quite frustrating we could not take out with a real plan... or actions out of this meeting. 21:02 hdl At least, we wanted to come to you and share all the stuff we did. 21:02 slef thd: Yes, it does look like BibLibre asking others to work for free. :-( For reasons explained above, I don't see how to make this paid. 21:02 thd hdl: Some people have doubted that problems with Zebra when using the ICU are Zebra problems. I could test at least one of those problems readily with my own non-Koha code which has been well tested for character encoding if you provide a Z39.50 server with claimed problems. 21:03 thd slef: The most significant problem I see reported for Zebra is one which hdl does not repeat clearly. 21:03 slef It is frustrating that there is no conclusion to this. 21:03 slef Now I must go elsewhere. Sorry. Bye all. 21:03 thd slef: There are reports of Zebra failing. 21:04 thd slef: This is free software. It is never finished. :) 21:04 hdl No conclusion... Because we have to work and either make that happen or make another thing happe. 21:04 hdl n 21:05 thd hdl: I am sorry that I did not have my report ready well in advance of the meeting. 21:05 hdl any question you have, any comments on the way we did things. you can tell us. 21:05 clrh we really wants to work with you this is why we are here... 21:05 thd hdl: I have been very detailed which takes much time. 21:05 clrh I'll try to be more present on the channel next weeks 21:06 hdl on list, or by chan. 21:06 hdl Thanks for your interest. I hope that you can test and send patches or at least see what we achieved. 21:06 thd hdl: What is the function of the use of YAML in your proof of concept or work in progress especially in bulkmarcimport.pl? 21:07 hdl thd: let me end the meeting 21:07 hdl and will answer you. 21:07 thd OK 21:07 hdl #endmeeting 21:07 munin Meeting ended Tue Dec 7 21:08:37 2010 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 21:07 munin Minutes: http://librarypolice.com/koha-meetings/2010/koha.2010-12-07-20.00.html 21:07 munin Minutes (text): http://librarypolice.com/koha-meetings/2010/koha.2010-12-07-20.00.txt 21:07 munin Log: http://librarypolice.com/koha-meetings/2010/koha.2010-12-07-20.00.log.html 21:07 hdl Next meeting on wendnesday 15th 21:08 hdl at 11AM UTC 21:09 hdl thd we are using YAML in order to link authorities... 21:09 thd hdl: PM as you wrote in your mailing list message is meaningless for UTC. AM avoids possible confusion of some people. 21:10 hdl thd can you give me a link to the file you speack about ? 21:10 thd hdl: How does YAML help for linking authorities, and why did I not use it in addbiblio.pl? 21:11 * thd finding link 21:11 hdl Well I am producing a YAML from authority import 21:11 hdl with Koha authority id and the Heading and the authority record id 21:12 hdl And then when I import a biblio file which have links to authorities... I load this YAML file and builds the links. 21:12 thd hdl: http://git.biblibre.com/?p=koha;a=blob;f=misc/migration_tools/bulkmarcimport.pl;hb=refs/heads/wip/solr 21:14 thd hdl: I try too understand your work deeply, although, I mostly concentraited on how to fix the Z39.50/SRU server issue. 21:17 thd hdl: How does YAML help specifically as opposed to not using YAML or how links between biblios and authorities had been built previously. I think that YAML may have many uses so my curiosity was sparked when I noticed use of YAML. 21:32 cait good night all 21:33 thd good night cait 21:38 clrh good night 21:48 hdl good night all 21:51 Brooke right. I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date. 21:53 thd good night hdl 21:56 drulm Hello, is the meeting still on 22:01 wizzyrea no sir :) 22:02 wizzyrea you said you were having a problem with git? 22:09 drulm I just wondered about the 3.03.00.004 Koha version number. Does this somehow mean "3.2" ? 22:11 wizzyrea 3.03 is the development branch of Koha, or what we sometimes refer to as "HEAD" 22:12 wizzyrea if you want to track the current stable branch 22:12 wizzyrea you'd do 22:12 wizzyrea git checkout -b 3.2.x --track origin/3.2.x 22:12 wizzyrea which should put you on stable 3.2.x 22:12 wizzyrea instead of on the track for 3.4 22:13 wizzyrea make sense? 22:13 drulm yes, works for me 22:13 wizzyrea yay! 22:15 drulm "clear as a Summers day of purest azure" 22:17 hdl good night folks 22:17 thd hdl: just before you go 22:17 hdl ? 22:18 hdl hi irmaB 22:18 irmaB Hi hdl ... sorry I am so late 22:18 irmaB Is meeting over? 22:18 hdl yes. 22:19 thd hdl: If I put some questions to BibLibre on the mailing list about how something is working in your Solr/Lucene work will someone from BibLibre take the time to explain briefly? 22:19 irmaB OK shall read the log. Was it constructive? 22:19 drulm There is a meeting tomorrow, no? 22:19 thd irmaB: Discussion is always constructive :) 22:19 irmaB Indeed 22:20 thd drulm: There is a general #koha meeting tomorrow. 22:21 hdl thd: sure... please ask... 22:21 hdl We might need some time to answer though. 22:21 irmaB Sorry but I have to go already... goodnight/goodday all ;-) 22:21 thd drulm: Today's meeting was a special topic meeting on BibLibre Solr/Lucene work. 22:22 thd hdl: I am very patient. I prefer careful answers to hasty ones. 22:22 thd hdl: Which is why I have not pressed Knowledge Integration and Index Data excessively for quick answers. 22:24 thd good night hdl 22:32 drulm thd: I saw that. Yes. 23:57 chris_n @later tell cait I've pushed a very raw and mostly untested update for the various sysprefs.sql files to my own repo 23:57 munin chris_n: The operation succeeded. 23:58 chris_n @later tell cait http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=wip/koha-chris_n.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/syspref_fix 23:58 munin chris_n: The operation succeeded. 23:58 chris_n @later tell cait if you have a chance to give it a look I would be grateful for the help 23:58 munin chris_n: The operation succeeded. 23:59 chris_n as well as anyone else who is versed in installing koha in any of the various languages other than en