Time  Nick        Message
23:20 sekjal      great, chris, thanks!
23:19 chris       and added 2 more rules
23:18 chris       sekjal: responded to your email
23:18 hudsonbot   Chris Cormack: Merge remote branch 'kc/master' into new/bug_5105
23:18 hudsonbot   Project Koha_3.2.x build #27: SUCCESS in 18 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_3.2.x/27/
23:12 chris_n     bbl
23:12 chris_n     that fits nicely into the picture
23:12 chris       according to their source
23:11 chris       gpl2
23:11 cfouts      though we're still using predominantly mysql 5.0
23:11 chris_n     very nice imho
23:11 * chris_n   did and maria cranked right up without a hitch
23:11 cfouts      that's what I'm hoping.
23:11 chris_n     cfouts: if percona is as drop-in as maria, you can leave your db's in place
23:10 chris       http://drizzle.org/Home.html
23:10 chris_n     nice writeup
23:10 chris       drizzle isnt a drop in replacement of course
23:10 chris       and maria
23:10 chris       as does drizzle
23:10 chris       percona seems cool
23:09 chris       yeah
23:08 chris_n     it sure sounds like there is some very low hanging fruit here to be had in multi-db support
23:07 cfouts      in that vein, they recently issued an elaboration: http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2010/11/05/perconas-commitments-to-mysql-users/
23:07 chris_n     maria uses XtraDB as well
23:07 * chris     is now curious and its lunchtime so ill eyeball the source
23:06 chris       sounds like they have learnt well from the lessons of mysql :)
23:06 chris       so im guessing still gpl :)
23:05 chris       All Percona software is available for download and unlimited usage at no charge, released for free under open source licenses. Percona does not adhere to any "dual licensing" or "community vs. enterprise" software pricing strategies. There is only one version of all Percona software, and that version is always free.
23:05 chris       i shouldnt have to download the tarball to find out :)
23:05 chris       i hate sites that dont put up license info in a easy place
23:03 cfouts      it has enhanced instrumentation
23:03 cfouts      not sure
23:03 chris       but their website doesnt say
23:03 chris       im assuing percona is gpl
23:02 chris_n     one of my dev install is running over maria with about 30k records in it
23:02 cfouts      I'm potentially going to be doing testing against PerconaDB
23:02 chris       drizzle is pretty neat too
23:01 chris_n     that one is very much within grasp
23:01 * chris_n   would love to see some other's do testing over MariaDB
23:00 chris       with the idea it wont stop anything else, and will at least move us quite a bit closer to not being chained to one db engine
23:00 hudsonbot   Starting build 27 for job Koha_3.2.x (previous build: SUCCESS)
22:59 chris       im proposing only getting hte schema part going for 3.4
22:59 chris       *nod*
22:59 cfouts      interesting that using DBIC only for schema management would not conflict with using Rose::DB or another ORM for runtime.
22:59 robin       oh, I didn't think of looking there. Ta.
22:58 sekjal      according to the MARC framework
22:58 sekjal      robin:  no, not repeatable
22:58 robin       hmm. It maps to a DB field, so perhaps not.
22:57 chris       pass
22:57 robin       is 952$x considered repeatable?
22:57 chris       yup
22:57 cfouts      wily-nily database updates need to be reigned in somehow, though
22:56 chris       not that i ever expect a koha site to get a fraction of the traffic .. itd be nice if libraries got that popular :-)
22:55 chris       but things like stuff.co.nz etc
22:55 chris       (not koha sites)
22:55 chris       the speed issue is why we dont use ORM on any of our big sites here
22:55 chris       yeah
22:55 cfouts      the speed issue is difficult, though. I don't think we can deprecate running Koha as a CGI.
22:55 thd         he had stated that he might be back at a time which would be half an hour ago.
22:54 cfouts      the two I've looked at enable the user to do direct SQL without much issue, so that doesn't seem to be much of a problem
22:54 chris       :)
22:54 chris       or at least 11pm
22:53 chris       its midnight, so i doubt it
22:53 thd         slef: are you back?
22:52 chris       sometimes the ORM does daft things, so its nice to be able to choose where to use it
22:51 chris       it doesnt lock you into using dbic for your db access everywhere like say something like tangram does
22:50 cfouts      oh, I see.
22:50 chris       and not have to use anything else
22:50 chris       you can just create and deploy schemas
22:49 cfouts      can you explain that?
22:49 chris       and i do like that about it a lot
22:49 chris       but we can still use the schema part without using dbic anywhere else
22:49 chris       like i say, im not convinced on a total ORM
22:48 cfouts      dbic, not the versioning
22:48 chris_n     +1 # reducing/easing db versioning
22:48 cfouts      I'm concerned about its speed
22:48 cfouts      I've heard about the dbic versioning capacity but haven't looked into it
22:48 cfouts      reducing the number of version increments would help
22:47 cfouts      that's a hard problem.
22:47 chris       or at least make it less likely
22:47 chris       i *think* we can use it to get rid of the number clashing we face doing database versioning now
22:46 chris       is what i really like
22:46 chris       http://search.cpan.org/~frew/DBIx-Class-0.08124/lib/DBIx/Class/Schema/Versioned.pm
22:46 chris       course it barfed when i tried loading in the sysprefs (because we have some mysqlisms in there) but those are easily fixed
22:45 chris       and it just worked
22:45 chris       and deployed it on postgres
22:45 chris       using it, i made a schema from a running koha on mysql
22:45 chris       its database agnostic
22:45 chris       and want to move to that, rather than a .sql file and updatedatabase.pl
22:45 cfouts      what about it?
22:44 chris       a lot
22:44 chris       I do like DBIx::Class::Schema though
22:44 cfouts      the latest in that camp is adding further motivation
22:44 chris       but at this point, it would do more harm than good
22:44 chris       an ORM is one way of doing that
22:44 cfouts      I see
22:44 chris       im for removing our dependence on mysql
22:44 cfouts      oh, interesting. I had misunderstood you previously, then,.
22:43 chris       but i might be persuaded on that, but certainly not before we are running under a persistent environment
22:42 chris       no i never was for a full ORM implementation
22:41 cfouts      chris: you mentioned during the meeting you'd had a change of preference for using an ORM, is that correct?
22:40 hudsonbot   Colin Campbell: Bug 5105 - Remove use of depreciated Switch module
22:40 hudsonbot   Project Koha_Master build #138: SUCCESS in 20 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_Master/138/
22:36 hudsonbot   * Frédéric Demians: Fix bug on opac-detail.pl with switch statement
22:36 hudsonbot   * Katrin Fischer: Bug 5003: Can not search for organisation by name
22:36 hudsonbot   Project Koha_3.2.x build #26: SUCCESS in 21 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_3.2.x/26/
22:23 chris       night cait
22:23 robin       bye!
22:23 cait        good night all!
22:23 cait        time to sleep
22:22 munin       New commit(s) kohagit: Merge remote branch 'kc/master' into new/bug_5105 <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=dcb86689f73089ceaa789a92c34e78200d05af61> / Bug 5105 - Remove use of depreciated Switch module <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=a9010530a331d9ee047e0d42a9f8206a206027a3>
22:20 chris       hudson is getting a workout
22:20 chris       heh
22:20 hudsonbot   Starting build 138 for job Koha_Master (previous build: SUCCESS)
22:19 hudsonbot   Frédéric Demians: Fix bug on opac-detail.pl with switch statement
22:19 hudsonbot   Project Koha_Master build #137: SUCCESS in 19 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_Master/137/
22:15 hudsonbot   Starting build 26 for job Koha_3.2.x (previous build: SUCCESS)
22:12 chris       that would be just fine
22:12 cait        uh, will have to ask someone at work
22:11 chris       yeah
22:10 wizzyrea    yea, that seems right something like parts copyright 2010 Northeast Kansas Library System (Liz Rea)
22:10 robin       wizzyrea: yeah, in that case it depends on what the law sets as the default for where you are. My conjecture would be that in the US it's copyright your employer by default, in the EU possibly not.
22:10 robin       so I put that as the copyright, and usually note somewhere that it was me that wrote it, more to help enquiries from people.
22:09 wizzyrea    but, it's a courtesy nonetheless
22:09 cait        I think nobody has thought about putting something in my contract
22:09 wizzyrea    not sure I have such a statement in the conditions of my employment
22:09 robin       I think it says in my contract that by default things are copyright catalyst.
22:08 robin       yeah, that's a reasonable approach.
22:08 wizzyrea    which is fine by me
22:08 wizzyrea    I suspect since it was done on their time, NEKLS should take the copyright,
22:08 robin       and that also varies by jurisdiction.
22:08 wizzyrea    depends on many things I understand. ;)
22:08 robin       wizzyrea: work for hire, for example/
22:08 chris       thats between you and your organisation i suspect
22:08 wizzyrea    k
22:08 robin       wizzyrea: it depends on many things
22:07 chris       wizzyrea: i dunno know your rules
22:07 chris       id put parts copyright you
22:07 wizzyrea    myself or my institution?
22:07 robin       there's no hard boundry, but I think as soon as you change behaviour, that's non-trivial
22:07 chris       it is changing functionality
22:07 cait        with very small changes
22:07 cait        I think the second is really too small, perhaps the first? but touching a lot of files
22:07 robin       cait: yeah, or a typo fix or something I'd consider trivial
22:07 cait        take my last 2 patches as example - should I have changed something for those?
22:06 cait        hm
22:06 * chris_n   runs perl 10
22:06 chris       cait: spacing
22:06 chris_n     I'm just wondering about the problematic nature of it
22:06 chris       yes wizzyrea
22:06 wizzyrea    I should be on that
22:06 wizzyrea    so something like that entire rewrite I did of the install.debian
22:06 cait        so, what is a trivial change?
22:06 chris_n     oh, I agree
22:06 chris       chris_n: it is most certainly deprecated and we shouldnt be using it
22:06 chris       i agree with robin
22:05 * chris_n   wonders why it has not been a problem before now
22:05 robin       cait: my thinking is that anything beyond a trivial change, you should add yourself to the copyright.
22:05 chris       im going to find and apply
22:05 chris_n     rather grep does
22:05 chris       i think there is a patch in the wild from colin
22:05 * chris_n   counts 5 occurances of perl's switch still in the code
22:04 cait        hm, that's something we wanted to talk about, when do we change copyright statements and how do we do it - I think my changes were too small until now, but still curious about it
22:02 munin       New commit(s) kohagit: Fix bug on opac-detail.pl with switch statement <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=5e1b8167c24e0322d94bfc919556d927d875cf97>
22:01 chris       :)
22:01 robin       that looks like a no :)
22:00 chris       +# Copyright 2009 BibLibre
22:00 chris       but im pretty sure you didnt write it
22:00 hudsonbot   Starting build 137 for job Koha_Master (previous build: SUCCESS)
21:59 chris       well hopefully colin will for me
21:59 chris       im going to reject for bad copyright
21:59 chris       Ability to link to items belong to host                              records from a analytical record
21:59 chris       hdl: still around? the first mail from savitra
21:57 wizzyrea    lol robin
21:56 * robin     suspects poor grounding.
21:53 chris       heh
21:48 * cait      hums happily
21:33 munin       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5003 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, katrin.fischer, NEW, Can not search for organisation by name
21:33 hudsonbot   Katrin Fischer: Bug 5003: Can not search for organisation by name
21:33 hudsonbot   Project Koha_Master build #136: SUCCESS in 18 min: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_Master/136/
21:30 Elwell      possibly - thinking about hacking my own bot to add some twitter pulling (there's an abandoned supybot plugin and a standalone twitter bot) but using RSS may save me a pile of pain as I already use RSS to pull in planet updates
21:29 gmcharlt    trying to do something?
21:29 Elwell      ah OK figures.
21:26 gmcharlt    Elwell: the RSS plugin
21:24 Elwell      Q - which plugin does munin use to announce commits?
21:22 wizzyrea    jcamins_a: "assiduously" i like it.
21:21 hdl         thd: bad.
21:21 thd         good evening #koha
21:21 cait        yes, get better
21:21 thd         hdl: I have been feeling better and then whatever it is comes back ;(
21:20 hdl         feel better.
21:20 hdl         have a nice day
21:20 thd         good evening wizzyrea
21:20 thd         good evening hdl and paul_p
21:20 wizzyrea    thd: hope you feel better soon
21:19 * thd       needs to visit the doctor again :(
21:19 cait        ah, you saved me :)
21:18 cait        yeah - but know I have to eat them myself
21:18 hudsonbot   wizzyrea: thanks a lot! om nom nom. I really like that carrots
21:18 wizzyrea    !hudson botsnack carrots
21:18 wizzyrea    cait: there you go being all healthy
21:18 hudsonbot   Use !hudsonhelp to get help!
21:18 hudsonbot   cait did you mean me? Unknown command 'bot'
21:18 cait        !hudsonbot botsnack carrots
21:18 thd         hdl: We also have Simple Server but that requires much work.
21:18 cait        oh
21:18 hudsonbot   Use !hudsonhelp to get help!
21:18 hudsonbot   cait did you mean me? Unknown command 'bog'
21:18 cait        !hudsonbog botsnack carrots
21:16 hudsonbot   wizzyrea: you're so kind to me! I just love cheetos!
21:16 wizzyrea    !hudson botsnack cheetos
21:16 thd         hdl: My greatest hope is that Index Data would work together with Knowledge Integration to develop a solution but that would probably cost too much.
21:16 hudsonbot   chris_n: yummy! I really like that cookie
21:16 chris_n     !hudson botsnack cookie
21:15 hdl         looking forward to your hints.
21:15 hudsonbot   Starting build 136 for job Koha_Master (previous build: SUCCESS)
21:14 thd         hdl: I have not yet identified support for @or @not or any non Bib-1 non-use attributes such as phrase searching which is a type 2 attribute.
21:12 thd         hdl: I should not discuss prematurely which is why I have not written more completely on the list but I will state what I have not yet found.
21:12 munin       New commit(s) kohagit: Bug 5003: Can not search for organisation by name <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=863830f3f91110bdbd930755139f844870234ccc>
21:11 thd         I have not had a direct answer about some questions yet from Knowledge Integration.
21:11 hdl         namely ?
21:11 thd         Index Data recommend JZKit for Java, however, JZKit is missing many features for good Z39.50/SRU.
21:10 thd         hdl: It is newer.
21:10 hdl         (better than zebra hopefully)
21:09 hdl         And I think that Indexdata will maintain that.
21:09 thd         hdl: It is all one circular path in the small world of free software library code.
21:09 hdl         But it would look quite a sensible dependency...
21:09 hdl         I have not dived into the code actually.
21:08 thd         hdl: Did you note the dependency on CQL-Java from Index Data?
21:08 hdl         I saw that.
21:07 hdl         solr.biblibre.com iirc. But maybe it was actually on a local machine.
21:07 thd         hdl: Where?
21:06 thd         hdl: Initially when using the Knowledge Integration web form to ask about documentation I had no response.
21:06 hdl         We did set one instance running
21:06 thd         hdl: I am still waiting for further response from Knowledge Integration.
21:05 thd         hdl: There is also some work to be done on the code perhaps.
21:04 thd         hdl: Creating documentation will cost money.
21:04 thd         hdl: I do not know how to set it up because there is no documentation.
21:04 thd         hdl: I have learnt more from studying the JZKit source code than from answers from Knowledge Integration.
21:03 hdl         thd:  have you been playing with JZKit ?
21:03 * hdl       don't know
21:03 thd         hdl: Is that not standard for Z39.50 servers in some manner?
21:02 hdl         not on tcp
21:02 wizzyrea    or not
21:02 wizzyrea    I think he means available
21:02 hdl         it is in socket
21:02 paul_p      thd, forgetting to look at my saviour. But that's not related to Koha ;-)
21:01 thd         hdl: Not open?
21:01 gmcharlt    agreed - non-ICU zebra, although more tedious to config, is not subject to the same sorts of problems that you are running into
21:01 thd         paul_p: What do you fear the most?
21:01 hdl         And z3950 searching is not open on standard configuraiton
21:00 chris       i still think the dual path is the way to go, and we deprecate zebra when solr provides everything it does and more
21:00 paul_p      hdl: stop & head to your bed. we will organize another meeting on IRC for that. and I think we will agree. That's not what I fear the most !
21:00 hdl         indexing is really.... kind of broken too.
21:00 thd         paul_p, hdl : I have been researching JZKit thoroughly.
20:59 hdl         facets are broken.
20:59 chris       still bad
20:59 paul_p      ok, definetly = I go to bed & chris, go to work ;-) (& hdl go to bed too I suggest. thd, you do what you want ;-) )
20:59 hdl         new features + bug fixes + regression ?
20:59 chris       new feature + regressions = still bad
20:58 thd         paul_p: Empowering ordinary users is great.
20:58 chris       regressions = bad
20:58 chris       new featurs = good
20:58 paul_p      we fully agree with z3950 issue
20:58 hdl         you told you would go to work...
20:58 chris       but i feel like things are very simple but people are commited to making them hard
20:58 thd         paul_p: I have not said how great that is on the mailing list yet.
20:58 * wizzyrea  pats chris
20:58 paul_p      ;-)
20:58 chris       im quite yelly today
20:58 chris       BUT DONT REGRESS US!
20:58 hdl         zebra configuration
20:58 chris       paul_p: no one is saying solr is bad
20:57 thd         hdl: What is hardcoded?
20:57 paul_p      what we are doing with solr is having all indexes defined by the librarians, in Koha itself !
20:57 hdl         wizzyrea: yes.
20:57 thd         wizzyrea: Zebra is absent from their public commitments.
20:57 hdl         and hardcoded
20:57 wizzyrea    9/17, so pretty recent
20:57 paul_p      + there are other issues that we can/should consider as bugs : like having config files so complex & hard to change.
20:57 wizzyrea    hmm
20:57 thd         hdl: I am not advocating holding on to very buggy software at all costs.
20:57 wizzyrea    http://www.indexdata.com/blog/2010/09/solr-support-zoom-pazpar2-and-masterkey
20:56 thd         hdl: That maybe which is why costs should be distributed.
20:56 hdl         for each bug
20:55 thd         hdl: Zebra has been neglected certainly.
20:55 hdl         But the fee and contract seemed quite high.
20:55 thd         hdl: Index Data is not yet committed to upgrading Zebra for Solr/Lucene.
20:55 hdl         We considered paying seriously.
20:54 hdl         thd: not only.
20:54 magnus      good night, #koha
20:54 paul_p      chris++ and i've to do some sleep ;-)
20:54 thd         hdl: I think that part of the problem is having one company pay for a shared benefit.
20:54 hdl         zebra3 will be based on solr
20:54 slef        Have indexdata announced end-of-life?
20:54 slef        zebra is dying???
20:54 hdl         Do you want to invest money in a dying sofrware ?
20:54 chris       right, if its the solr zebra battle, im outta here, ill participate in the meeting when its called but its now 10am and i have to do some work
20:53 thd         hdl: Yes, in fact.
20:53 hdl         have you ever aksed for a quote ?
20:52 hdl         are you kidding ?
20:52 hdl         appropriate inducement ???
20:52 slef        hdl: sometimes.
20:51 thd         hdl: For Z39.50/SRU server purposes as opposed to local indexing do you not have confidence that Index Data would find a fix with an appropriate inducement?
20:51 hdl         slef: because of MARC::File::XML
20:51 chris       i just dont think solr is a drop in replacement, until it can do sru/sw and z3950 etc
20:51 paul_p      thd, for Aix-Marseille universities, 700k biblios, we had 14 that were invalid, and needed more than 3 days just to reindex : because Koha can display them, so they seemed OK
20:51 hdl         a... position in field is also deprecated.
20:51 slef        paul_p: koha also dies with a confused error when there is invalid utf8 in a biblio, at least in 3.0 in some situations. :-/
20:51 chris       im sure there are bugs in zebra
20:50 hdl         and if you search for complete subfield... you will do a search on word.
20:50 paul_p      thd, my main complaint against zebra/icu is that it dies without saying anything worth when there is an invalid utf8 char or diacritic in the biblio
20:49 hdl         *stoire brings nothing
20:49 hdl         for instance
20:49 hdl         No... All of them
20:49 thd         hdl: I had presumed that the issue was for some set of characters within ICU.
20:49 hdl         to say the less
20:49 hdl         but the problem is that support for icu.xml in zebra is rather.... poor
20:48 Brooke      cheers lads./
20:48 Brooke      right no more Koha stuff today.
20:48 hdl         at least my icu_chain.xml
20:48 thd         hdl: All ICU usage?
20:48 hdl         (well for facets... it is even the cas with charmap)
20:47 hdl         icu usage.
20:47 paul_p      Elwell, on nov 11th, no. It's more on nov,1st
20:47 clrh        Bye bye too, see you soon and thanks for the meeting.
20:47 thd         hdl: What triggers them?
20:47 hdl         Do you need more ?
20:47 hdl         no zebra facets.
20:47 Elwell      paul_p: are the autoroutes traditionally busy with people making it a long weekend (faire le pont)
20:47 hdl         no completenes
20:47 hdl         no left truncation
20:46 thd         hdl: Would you give some details of ICU bugs?
20:45 owen        Veterans Day in the US
20:45 slef        we get 2 minutes for that
20:45 paul_p      lol
20:45 slef        ah, a legal strike
20:45 paul_p      (end of WW1)
20:45 paul_p      slef, holiday
20:45 slef        another strike?
20:45 paul_p      ok, bye everybody, and see you tomorrow or later. Oups, not tomorrow, because it's closed in France ;-)
20:44 * sekjal    has plenty of coffee on supply
20:44 thd         If 2AM, stay up late. :)
20:44 tajoli      bye
20:44 hdl         hehe
20:44 Brooke      toughen up!
20:44 hdl         jwagner overcrowding NZ.
20:43 sekjal      earlier for Alaska and Hawaii
20:43 sekjal      meeting will be 2-5am for most of the continental USA
20:43 slef        me too, when I'm sliding through 13 of them :-/
20:43 jwagner_    especially with jet lag
20:43 cait        :)
20:43 cait        time zones confuse me
20:43 cait        thd: yep, valid point - it was just a question
20:43 * chris_n   will start looking for lists posts and meeting times for the aforementioned devel items
20:42 cait        yeah, I know I was unclear with my question
20:42 thd         cait: South Asian participation is important.
20:42 Elwell      if only they'd anchor NZ somewhere closer to europe :-)
20:42 jwagner_    no us = everyone!
20:42 * gmcharlt  declares the meeting adjourned
20:42 Lee         :)
20:42 cait        us = usa
20:42 * jwagner_  suggests moving all of us to NZ instead :-)
20:42 Brooke      clearly they belong in the Carribean.
20:42 Brooke      paul ++
20:41 thd         gmcharlt++
20:41 * paul_p    has suggested to move NZ to atlantic ocean, but seems even UN can't do that
20:41 cait        ah
20:41 gmcharlt    cait: that cuts out the Indians
20:41 * chris_n   will get to drink extra coffee :-)
20:41 jwagner_    cait, I know
20:41 cait        what about 10pm for kiwi and europe? too late too early for us?
20:41 wizzyrea    no frowns.
20:41 jwagner_    Yeah, we get the early morning time slot this time :-(
20:41 gmcharlt    ok, the next meeting is set for 10:00 UTC+0 on Wednesday, 8 December 2010
20:41 chris       yes
20:41 slef        Brooke: cool.
20:41 paul_p      chris, are you OK with this timing ?
20:40 chris       thats better than the morning
20:40 Brooke      a preliminary cloud is on the wiki in limbo, but I didn't want to link it until it's finalised on friday
20:40 chris       11pm for us
20:40 paul_p      so, really perfect for europe (but not for kiwis)
20:40 paul_p      oups, right, sorry
20:40 Brooke      and I should have summat general by Friday next
20:40 chris_n     paul_p: ?
20:40 gmcharlt    paul_p: no, I'm pretty sure that means 11:00 a.m. for you
20:40 Brooke      then the underpants gnoams will work on it
20:40 Brooke      they will be compiled by Friday
20:39 slef        Brooke: when are you going to do something with those 3-worders?
20:39 paul_p      means 11PM for us !
20:39 paul_p      yikes !
20:39 sekjal      +1
20:39 cait        +1
20:39 thd         +1
20:39 gmcharlt    thd: 8 December
20:38 chris_n     +1
20:38 thd         what date gmcharlt?
20:38 dpk         Yeah!
20:38 gmcharlt    ok, how about 10:00 UTC+0 ?
20:38 sekjal      rotate time 8 hours one direction or another?
20:37 paul_p      chris, yep, I had understood. and that's what we will do, definetly !
20:37 chris       you should call one for solr sooner if you want
20:37 Brooke      I say inconvenience the yanks, since we inconvenienced the kiwis
20:37 chris       paul_p: this is for the general meeting
20:37 slef        I thought 1st Dec was some important date, but it's not marked in my calendar :-/
20:37 gmcharlt    anbody care to propose the time of day?
20:36 gmcharlt    ok, majority is for 8 December
20:36 jwagner_    Either the 1st or 8th is fine
20:36 magnus      +1
20:36 cait        ++
20:36 paul_p      (would prefer dec 1st, though)
20:36 paul_p      (would prefer dev 1st, though)
20:36 Lee         +1
20:36 tajoli      8 Dec --
20:36 paul_p      works for me too
20:36 Colin       ++
20:36 sekjal      08 Dec 2010 ++
20:35 dpk         LGTM
20:35 owen        8 December +1
20:35 * chris_n   goes back to work on C4::TimeMachine
20:35 gmcharlt    slef++
20:35 thd         +1 8 December
20:35 slef        I broke it next year.
20:35 slef        I had a time machine.
20:35 slef        looks good to me, assuming December
20:35 chris_n     hehe
20:35 chris       yeah
20:35 chris_n     opps
20:35 wizzyrea    +1 for december
20:35 gmcharlt    rather, 8 December 2010, as I haven't completed my time machine either
20:35 Brooke      else I'd need a time machine.
20:35 chris_n     for Nov
20:34 chris_n     +1
20:34 Brooke      December?
20:34 * gmcharlt  tosses out 8 November 2010
20:34 gmcharlt    on to setting the date and time for the next genearl meeting
20:34 Brooke      I move to recess
20:34 gmcharlt    hearing none
20:33 gmcharlt    any action items from http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_Meeting,_6_October_2010 to discuss?
20:33 slef        I've been seeing a thread about solr gone away on vufind list, but I've not read the posts yet.
20:33 gmcharlt    specifics regarding timing should be discussed on the mailing lists
20:33 gmcharlt    and others who want to call such meetings are free to do so
20:32 paul_p      except we will loose many great things solr has (but that's another discussion, I agree)
20:32 gmcharlt    we have a nascent proposal for a technical discussion meeting, most likely on the topic of Solr
20:32 cait        although I really liked what I saw in biblibre's poc - I think it should be discussed
20:32 slef        gmcharlt++
20:32 gmcharlt    ok, dragging back to the agenda
20:32 chris       thd++
20:32 cait        it seems to work with hebrew too - no complaints so far
20:32 thd         Zebra together with Solr/Lucene until no regression.
20:32 hdl         Data::SearchEngine is there.
20:32 sekjal      hdl:  great!
20:32 chris_n     lets see if we can make the present venues work
20:32 hdl         sekjal: expect a meeting on that and a post on kohadeve...
20:32 chris       id happily see c4::search  and c4::search::zebra and c4::search::solr and c4::search::nutch
20:31 chris_n     paul_p: I'd like to see biblibre do a writeup to the list and propose a meeting to discuss solr
20:31 paul_p      just for everybody information : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macron
20:31 slef        Huh, I've a catalogue with non-latin items, not reporting problems, but it's not that big and I think they transliterated everything for the old systems.
20:31 paul_p      chris, and you have a koha/zebra/maori ? congrats !
20:31 hdl         sekjal: we shall do some in the near future.
20:31 chris       and have macrons
20:31 chris       we speak maori here
20:31 chris       i can
20:31 paul_p      really
20:30 paul_p      you can't imagine our pains...
20:30 paul_p      really tired to have problems with diacritics. lucky english-natives !
20:30 slef        zebra++
20:30 munin       chris_n: Karma for "zebra" has been increased 3 times and decreased 9 times for a total karma of -6.
20:30 chris_n     @karma zebra
20:30 chris       regression_in_the_name_of_progress--
20:30 chris_n     poor zebra ;)
20:30 Brooke      then I'm sticking the responses on the wiki
20:30 paul_p      zebra--
20:30 paul_p      zebra--
20:30 paul_p      zebra--
20:30 paul_p      zebra--
20:30 paul_p      zebra--
20:30 paul_p      zebra--
20:30 chris_n     nothing stops anyone from putting "long term" items on the agenda
20:30 paul_p      hdl++
20:30 Brooke      and folks are responding
20:30 Brooke      I'm sticking stuff on the listserv for comment
20:30 hdl         you donot have enoug problem with zebra.
20:30 jwagner_    solr is definitely a good idea that needs discussion soon
20:30 thd         cfouts has raised an important issue of not having the workload and costs fall too heavily on any one support company for major issues which benefit everyone but are not the core problems of any sponsor in particular.
20:30 chris       cait++
20:30 sekjal      hdl: I'd like to discuss solr and learn more about what it may mean for us.  I'd happily attend a meeting
20:30 Brooke      naught
20:30 cait        why invent something new?
20:30 cfouts      I think what's potentially missing is the same thing that people are complaining about being missing from the RFC process: no comment.
20:30 chris_n     exactly
20:29 cait        I think we should talk about long term things at the irc meetings too - and have proposals etc. on the wiki - what is stopping us from that?
20:29 slef        hdl: no, not suspicion, solr looks like a bad idea to me at the moment.
20:29 Brooke      dpk: just do eet. Join us ratbag consultants.
20:29 cait        so propose a meeting time
20:29 chris_n     ^^
20:29 dpk         It sounds like there is a real need for some more long term planning, but finding the right venue is going to be the challenge.
20:29 hdl         solr
20:29 chris_n     etc, etc, etc
20:29 chris_n     same for DB restructuring
20:29 chris_n     so why doesn't someone who feels the urgency of a move to ORM do a writeup to the list and propose a meeting time?
20:28 hdl         slef: because it seems that whenever a proposition is done, ppl are suspicious.
20:28 thd         oops jwagner
20:28 chris       so its up to the organiser to promote their meeting/topic
20:28 thd         jwagmer_: Those with an interest do the work.
20:28 slef        Why is this being complicated?
20:28 chris       well, theres your answer
20:27 chris       if no one turns up
20:27 trea        consensus decides
20:27 chris       jwagner_: any one can call a meeting
20:27 slef        ...who decides who decides we need to have a meeting about a meeting...
20:27 chris_n     jwager_: anyone can propose it and schedule a time I think
20:27 cait        the person proposing it
20:27 hdl         chris as soon as there is open space for discussion and collaboration fine...
20:27 jwagner_    Question: who decides we need to have a meeting on ORM, etc.? And does background work to provide info?
20:27 magnus      chris++
20:27 thd         chris++
20:26 * Brooke    heads straight for the pub.
20:26 cfouts      not sure how that's any different than what is proposed
20:26 Brooke      right
20:26 slef        wizzyrea: no, no committees.
20:26 chris       lets all go have a drink now
20:26 chris       solved
20:26 chris       soleve
20:26 chris       BAM
20:26 chris_n     ie. a meeting to discuss ORM, etc
20:26 cait        chris+100
20:26 hdl         chris++
20:26 Brooke      <3 chris
20:26 wizzyrea    interested parties can attend, and there's your committee
20:26 Colin       chris++
20:26 chris_n     chris++
20:26 chris       instead of a meeting about having meetings on techincal decisions
20:26 paul_p      chris++
20:26 cait        chris++
20:26 chris       i suggest we just have meetings on technical decisions
20:25 jwagner_    I suggest a special meeting with this as the main/sole agenda item
20:25 chris       with discussion summarised to the wiki and koha-devel
20:25 chris       are a good place to discuss things like ORM
20:25 hdl         ???
20:25 chris       i think meetings like this, we a more defined agenda
20:24 chris_n     <snap>
20:24 chris       but yeah we are getting off topic
20:24 chris_n     ahh... db agnosticism is not what I call restructuring, sorry
20:24 chris       to restructuring
20:24 chris       thats database abstraction, thats a whole different thing
20:24 jwagner_    chris_n, examples of what? listserv discussion?  Can't give you specifics right now, but I definitely remember a lot of traffic recently about MySQL, Postgres, etc.
20:23 chris_n     jwager_: examples?
20:23 paul_p      (yep, wanted to add we worked on this during the 1st KohaCon)
20:23 dpk         jwagner_, fair enough.
20:23 chris       and it still wasnt totally decided until the hackfest
20:23 jwagner_    I've seen discussion on the mailing list about database restructuring.
20:23 chris       and tumer did a lot of testing
20:22 chris       we did a lot more testing
20:22 cfouts      which is why koha-devel does not strike me as an effective forum for that kind of planning
20:22 chris_n     if it is so important, why are is it not being promoted in available forums?
20:22 chris       no it wasnt decided then
20:22 paul_p      wizzyrea, joshua proposed it, with some (few) benchmarks comparing with lucene, and it has been decided.
20:22 * chris_n   has seen little discussion on the mailing list concerning either ORM or db restructuring
20:22 paul_p      cfouts++
20:22 wizzyrea    so, as a reference point, how was the switch to zebra decided?
20:21 thd         cfouts++
20:21 jwagner_    dpk, I don't think this can wait another year.  There's too much in the pipeline now.
20:21 davi        talking and not doing does not help as much
20:21 paul_p      chris, (we know you disagree with this idea. But i prefer hard discussion to seeing you staying silent)
20:21 thd         hdl: We could go further than what we do at present without going so far we have a model which is not a free software model
20:21 dpk         Sounds like a two-year plan for Koha development should be a major goal of the next KohaCon - with people prepping ahead of time.
20:21 cfouts      davi, I don't think you realize the scale of this
20:21 davi        well, or do it or do not talk about it
20:20 hdl         davi HUGE work.
20:20 Brooke      so speaking of long range vision, I've 23ish responses to my 3 word summaries of Koha >.> <.<
20:20 davi        cfouts, no, just do it, and improve it
20:20 paul_p      chris, can you explain more ?
20:20 hdl         (or at least work)
20:20 hdl         + db structure redesing
20:20 jwagner_    cfouts++
20:20 chris       i dont
20:20 hdl         cfouts: but everyone agrees it is needed.
20:19 cfouts      it's something that needs a long-term vision, backed by research, and a plan developed as to how it could be implemented
20:19 paul_p      cfouts++
20:19 Brooke      chris_n go look at Brook's law. This is growing pains.
20:19 thd         hdl: I think the problem is the degree of formalism.
20:19 jwagner_    But right now there are a _lot_ of defined ways, and people get confused
20:19 chris_n     but again, we can only encourage communication, not enforce it
20:19 tajoli      sometime yes, often no
20:19 jwagner_    wizzyrea, I think yes, if there was a defined process for doing so
20:19 cfouts      example: the transition to using an ORM is a platform change that no one entity is going to do or pay for
20:19 davi        nobody is forced to volunter
20:19 wizzyrea    certainly if someone said "hey, i have an idea and I want a few folks to help me work it out" would people volunteer?
20:18 paul_p      chris_n, agreed
20:18 davi        hdl++
20:18 hdl         But there are structural needs.
20:18 chris_n     communication is one of the core problems here as well
20:18 thd         hdl++
20:18 hdl         And then... step by step enlarge.
20:18 hdl         for the purpose of the group.
20:18 davi        hdl ++
20:18 hdl         in that group
20:18 gmcharlt    obviously it's in their intrest to communicate well during the process
20:18 hdl         chris_n: we could work on building little workgroups and build concensus
20:18 chris       and if it flies, it flies
20:18 tajoli      Is softeware for library with few reasoures or not ?
20:18 gmcharlt    and submits it up the chain
20:17 gmcharlt    gets it working
20:17 gmcharlt    paul_p: what happens is that somebody starts hacking together support for a new platform
20:17 chris       paul_p: no there isnt
20:17 thd         paul_p: Reliability as such may not be available but you could have much additional confidence which is less than reliability.
20:17 chris_n     so unless the "committee" has the authority to say " we do this", it is little better than another voice in the crowd
20:17 gmcharlt    paul_p: nope
20:17 tajoli      I think that to cooperate at best we need to do evaluation on what is Koha
20:17 paul_p      chris_n, whan the linux kernel decide to add a new platform, there is someone that decides this strategic decision isn't it ?
20:17 cfouts      who is proposing to make anyone do anything, here?
20:17 slef        back, reading
20:17 davi        votes to the power
20:16 chris_n     paul_p: we cannot *make* people do what we may think they should
20:16 wizzyrea    that's not the point really (or certainly not what I meant).
20:16 paul_p      jwagner_++
20:16 Brooke      sekjal that's a feature, not a bug
20:16 jwagner_    sekjal, that's the problem -- HOW do we best cooperate?
20:16 davi        paul_p, ++
20:16 chris_n     paul_p: and with no enforcement mechanism, how do these propositions help?
20:16 sekjal      fundamental problem:  no one in the community can make anyone else do anything (except customers directing their vendors).  we're all free to do as we please.  hopefully, most of us choose to cooperate as best we can
20:16 paul_p      I don't want to add bureaucracy, I want to add reliability
20:15 paul_p      chris_n, disagreeing partially
20:15 chris_n     jwagner_: encourage them to look at the RFC's on wiki
20:15 davi        chris_n, ++
20:15 hdl         this should not be the task or the will of one company.
20:15 thd         wizzyrea: I know the adage but the adage applied to free software is that free software is bad
20:15 chris_n     this is a basic people problem and no amount of committee-ing it will fix it
20:15 hdl         That could improve the work for everyone
20:15 jwagner_    The customers decide what gets developed, not PTFS
20:15 jwagner_    We would certainly encourage our customers who are interested in sponsoring development to look at a committee's recommendations.
20:15 paul_p      dpk++
20:15 hdl         owen: there are structural work that needs to be done.
20:14 cfouts      davi: that's what we're talking about
20:14 chris_n     cfouts: that is why people need to start using wiki+BZ and vote
20:14 Brooke      cfouts: each user his venue
20:14 paul_p      but when a sponsored (major) dev arrive, a tech committee or something like that could be handy to help with our relations with the library.
20:14 davi        cfouts, formalise it
20:14 owen        jwagner_: How? You would have a committee instruct PTFS on what they should develop next?
20:14 cfouts      davi: I don't have infinite time to look at all those venues
20:14 wizzyrea    too many cooks spoil the soup :P
20:14 dpk         Other projects have annual meetings (like KohaCon) these kind of strategy issues are dealt with face to face
20:14 Brooke      erm, I think it's more a problem of Taylorism v. Organic governance
20:14 thd         wizzyrea: many cooks make a nice feast for everyone
20:14 davi        cfouts, count votes on all that medias
20:14 tajoli      No, but it does a valutation
20:14 jwagner_    owen, I think that would be part of a committee's job, actually
20:13 paul_p      owen, agreed (I may have misunderstood you)
20:13 LBA         I think it isn't a problem with the venues for getting feedback and planning ahead, the problem is that there needs to be a guarantee of some kind of response.
20:13 owen        paul_p: What I mean is that a technical committee can't imagine a new feature and then expect someone to develop it
20:13 cfouts      there's a wiki and mailing lists and irc and bugzilla and whatever.
20:13 wizzyrea    for one: lots and lots of cooks.
20:12 paul_p      owen, that's where I disagree : if I have a contract signed and a technical committee says "no", then i can go back to my customer & negociate/find a good solution
20:12 chris_n     cfouts: post to the list and then bump, bump, bump
20:12 cfouts      they're too diffuse
20:12 owen        jwagner_: steer? Encourage, I suppose.
20:12 thd         cfouts: What about our existing forums is deficient for developing that vision?
20:12 cfouts      chris_n: attention
20:12 LBA         vision beyond next release still doesn't get a developer what they might need for their client (but I'm okay with that in the spirit of staying flexible as new needs/technology arise).
20:12 chris_n     so what does such a committee benefit over what we have now?
20:12 jwagner_    owen, yes, but a group could steer and encourage development
20:12 cfouts      people who are looking at architectural issues and working to build consensus about how to contribute in the present with an eye toward the future
20:12 owen        A technical committee can't enforce their "vision" because it all depends on who funds the development
20:12 paul_p      (not sure my last sentence was correct english ;-) )
20:12 jwagner_    paul_p, correct
20:11 paul_p      jwagner_, any vendor, or any library employed ppl
20:11 tajoli      jwagner++
20:11 chris_n     wizzyrea++
20:11 davi        or who only attend meetings can vote too
20:11 cfouts      I don't care what it's called, but Koha needs to have a vision of what's happening beyond the next release.
20:11 jwagner_    Right now, what's happening is that any vendor with development contracts is working independently with little coordination.
20:11 paul_p      wizzyrea++ (convincing to vote)
20:11 davi        so who only read email will vote too
20:11 davi        owen, "more formal voting process",  allowing to vote via any communication email, IRC, and so on, as the indivitual identity is verified
20:10 gmcharlt    Lee: anybody who cares to express an opinion is represented
20:10 wizzyrea    the real problem is convincing people to actually vote
20:10 hdl         Brooke: vertical structure... maybe not... But collaboration. and work together.... I did hope so
20:10 Brooke      I agree on formalisation of protocol. That's the ratbag consultant contingent's responsibility
20:10 paul_p      wizzyrea, maybe, but until now, it has been quite un-efficient :\
20:10 jwagner_    I think there needs to be some one/group that takes responsibility to look beyond the current release and identify areas that need improvement, that need attention, and that people are willing to sponsor -- not for the next release but for the one, two, three releases after that.
20:10 thd         However, when it comes to running verified code votes count for very little.
20:10 Lee         galen are libraries represented on the devel committee?
20:10 wizzyrea    we have had that for a while
20:09 thd         We could create a mechanism such as voting on bugs to have greater clarity.
20:09 cait        late... but I got distracted
20:09 hdl         and some design options has to be coped with on a longer term.
20:09 cait        gmcharlt++
20:09 hdl         Nothing clear
20:08 jwagner_    It's a great mechanism for floating ideas and discussing possibilities.
20:08 Brooke      if you're looking for vertical structure in an open source project, you will be disappointed routinely.
20:08 LBA         I think was is missing is not a Technical Committee but some clarity about protocol...thus my incessant nagging
20:08 hdl         No decision is taken via email
20:08 paul_p      gmcharlt, disagreeing
20:08 owen        I think maybe what we really need is a more formal voting process to bring to questions which a technical committee might otherwise address
20:08 chris_n     jwagner_: how will a technical committee with no way to enforce its decisions help that problem?
20:08 davi        jwagner, Technical Committee can fail at taking decision too, in the same way, and even worse; take the worn ones some time.
20:08 tajoli      gmcharlt++
20:08 hdl         gmcharlt--
20:08 LBA         gmcharlt++
20:08 jwagner_    gmcharlt, that is not any kind of structured decision-making forum
20:08 chris       gmcharlt++
20:08 magnus      gmcharlt++
20:08 thd         gmcharlt++
20:08 hdl         Both from users, libraries, and from developers as to making a successfull collaboration
20:08 Brooke      ++ galen
20:07 * gmcharlt  submits that the technical committee already exists, and is to be found on koha-devel
20:07 jwagner_    We've had a lot of topics on the agenda today and been unable/unwilling to make decisions on many of them.  I think that's a good reason in favor of having some kind of technical committee -- some group with responsibility to guide the future of the project.
20:07 hdl         there is a reall need for clarity...
20:07 tajoli      ++
20:07 hdl         ++ for not deciding but discuss.
20:06 gmcharlt    ok, the direction of the vote is clear enough
20:06 sekjal      ++ for not deciding
20:06 paul_p      I have expressed my opinion widely on koha ML, I won't repeat. but if you want, I can ;-)
20:06 Colin       ++
20:06 davi        ++ not decide now
20:06 magnus      ++
20:06 * dpk       ++ not decide now
20:05 thd         ++
20:05 LBA         ++ not to decide anything today
20:05 * chris_n   seconds
20:05 davi        hdl, All the interested would show opinion in the decision taking process, as now
20:05 gmcharlt    ok, there is a motion to not decide the issue now
20:05 paul_p      agreed not to decide now. just want to discuss of this.
20:04 davi        optional
20:04 thd         gmcharlt: I like to move a question of not deciding the issue now.
20:04 davi        with vote delegation
20:04 davi        voting at each decision ++
20:04 davi        Anyway people can delegate his vote if they want, and that would lend to a more valanced Technical Committee in a natural way on demand
20:04 gmcharlt    ok, I'm calling the vote - preponderance of people who have voted is to *not* postpone the discussion item
20:04 Lee         abstains
20:03 hdl         davi:  when should decision be taken... and who should decide ?
20:03 davi        Technical Committee --
20:03 davi        ack paul_p
20:03 davi        voting at each decision ++
20:03 paul_p      davi, that's what we have to discuss ;-)
20:02 davi        Is not voting at each decision enough?
20:02 Colin       abstains
20:02 * wizzyrea  abstains — I have time both now and later
20:02 davi        Is a Technical Committee actually needed?
20:02 BobB        BobB abstains
20:02 magnus      ++
20:02 * Brooke    is as silent as the average RFC respondant.
20:02 * jcamins   abstains - won't be able to stay for the discussion today, probably
20:02 cait        ++
20:01 hdl         ! (I want to explain my position)
20:01 owen        ++
20:01 tajoli      --
20:01 thd         -- Discussion, if it is not deciding does no harm.
20:01 chris       ++
20:00 paul_p      --
20:00 cfouts      --
20:00 jwagner_    --
20:00 hdl         --
20:00 LBA         ++
20:00 * gmcharlt  abstains
20:00 gmcharlt    so ... getting the procedural bit out the way, I call a vote to postpone to the December meeting
20:00 thd         chris_n :)
20:00 gmcharlt    and a request to postpone (presumably until the next general meeting)
19:59 * chris_n   groans at the thought of trying to gain a consensus on two such items in one meeting
19:59 gmcharlt    so we have an agenda item relating to a current discussion on the mailing lists
19:59 chris       yes, tests will win you lots of karma
19:59 gmcharlt    proposal to form a Technical Committee + request this discussion be postponed due to short notice at a time when many Kohacon10 participants were travelling
19:59 gmcharlt    so the agenda item:
19:59 gmcharlt    write a bugfix, write a regression test for it
19:59 gmcharlt    hdl: the beauty is that tests can be added incremental - write a new feature, write tests for it
19:58 gmcharlt    the next non-routine item:
19:58 hdl         gmcharlt: + all the new tests.... to be written.
19:58 gmcharlt    ok, now that chris is doing haiku, definitely time to move on in the agenda ;)
19:58 chris       http://koha-releasemanagement.branchable.com/posts/Patches_pushed_4_November/
19:58 chris       i did some haiku too
19:57 chris       hdl: just random things to make list of patches more interesting
19:57 hdl         A bird in the hand makes it awfully hard to blow your nose.
19:57 slef        bbl
19:57 LBA         okay, thanks for clarification.
19:57 hdl         chris what ar those fortunes ?
19:57 gmcharlt    hdl: with the QA process coming into place, and with hudson, HEAD will also be *more* stable
19:57 chris       fixed for master, then ported back to 3.2.x is how we are doing it
19:57 chris       LBA: bugs have to be fixed for both release streams
19:56 chris       hdl: yep he would have to be careful, cherry pick or rebase --onto
19:56 LBA         bug=responsibility of Release Maintainer?  and enh=responsibility of Release Manager for next release (potentially)?
19:56 chris       http://blog.bigballofwax.co.nz/2010/11/05/pretty-graph-showing-the-last-weeks-worth-of-merges/
19:56 hdl         merging could make features get into stable
19:56 chris       i gots a picture
19:56 gmcharlt    k, anything more to say about the branch structure?
19:56 chris       etc
19:55 * chris_n   too
19:55 jransom     (gotta go folks - thanks all - bye)
19:55 chris       or he could merge new/bug_3421
19:55 * hdl       loves branch management
19:55 chris       yup
19:55 hdl         he could rebase --onto master...
19:55 hdl         helping chris_n++
19:55 chris       its easy to cherry-pick from those branches
19:55 hdl         chris++
19:55 cfouts      gotcha
19:54 chris       cfouts: it helps chris_n a lot
19:54 hdl         chris ok cool
19:54 cfouts      what is the purpose of distinguishing between bug and enhancement?
19:54 paul_p      for example : http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Guided_reports_serials_RFC
19:54 paul_p      chris_n, i've written a wiki template, that is very handful
19:54 chris       at least enough testing to be considered for master
19:54 chris       if they dont have /awaiting_qa/
19:53 chris       they are tested
19:53 hdl         chris what about new/tested/bug/// new/tested/enh/...
19:53 chris_n     cool
19:53 paul_p      chris_n, yep
19:53 chris_n     paul_p: are there enh reqs in bugzilla for biblibre's latest RFCs?
19:53 wizzyrea    gmcharlt++
19:53 LBA         gmcharlt :-*
19:53 paul_p      thd, I would like to be optimistic like you're ;-)
19:53 chris       gmcharlt++
19:52 gmcharlt    and ultimately ... it's better to discuss and/or promote the actual RFCs than have a discussion about having those discussions that goes on without any clear end
19:52 chris       new/awaiting_qa/ for ones that need qa then will move to one or the other
19:52 thd         paul_p: I am confident that we will sort the issue.
19:52 paul_p      gmcharlt, & thd ok
19:52 cait        I think we can start doing things - like having bugs for rfc's - asking for feedback etc.
19:52 chris       new/ for bugfixes
19:52 chris       new/enh for new features
19:52 thd         paul_p: It will take time
19:52 chris       etc
19:52 chris       http://koha-releasemanagement.branchable.com/posts/Patches_Pushed_10_November/
19:52 chris       and what i did
19:51 gmcharlt    paul_p: perhaps not, but I think we have achieved a better understanding of the issues
19:51 chris       and see what i am working on here
19:51 paul_p      gmcharlt, you're probably right. and it's too bad = means we decide nothing :\
19:51 chris       http://koha-releasemanagement.branchable.com/posts/Branches_to_merge/
19:51 chris       http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=heads you can see the branches in action here
19:51 gmcharlt    which is why it is handy that there are multiple forums available to us, including the mailing lists
19:50 cait        yep
19:50 gmcharlt    LBA: consensus?  no, I don't think we've achieved it, but I am also pretty sure that that we could debate this for hours and not get there
19:50 thd         Brooke: Zen programmes?
19:49 gmcharlt    not sure what this one is about; if its' about branches in the public repo, chris has laid out hte scheme he intends to use
19:49 jransom     notes that the term'ratbag' appears to fallen into common usage .... :)
19:49 LBA         gmcharlt, is that it?  I'm not clear on any consensus.  can you summarize?
19:49 slef        someone is making odd noises... I'm going to move... biab
19:49 gmcharlt    next item is git management (branches)
19:49 gmcharlt    ok, in the interest of time ... moving on
19:48 slef        erm, this deserted station doesn't seem the safest place
19:48 * Brooke    believes in Zen programmes
19:48 Brooke      and in a worst case, we can hire someone to put em back
19:48 Brooke      like on say loosing RDA like features.
19:48 munin       slef: Error: "shut" is not a valid command.
19:48 Brooke      we can scream bloody murder though Paul
19:48 slef        munin: shut it ratbag!
19:47 gmcharlt    if somebody really wanted to maintain NoZebra (or a pure-perl search engine, more generally), they could do so
19:47 chris_n     only if the documentation is kept up
19:47 munin       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=1234 enhancement, P2, ---, paul.poulain, NEW, Parameter: Bar Code # Prefix for book / patron searching
19:47 slef        actually, if someone ported a list like bug 1234 5678 5692 then it would be easy to put that into bz's search box and step through and vote.
19:47 paul_p      that is a pain for users : no one has announced "NoZebra is no more supported", and it's not fair for users
19:47 gmcharlt    but ultimately ... that was fine
19:47 chris_n     ^^ what he said
19:47 cfouts      which is fine
19:47 paul_p      ...silently...
19:47 hdl         So NoZebra became unsupported.
19:46 gmcharlt    and some things can be handled with well designed architecture
19:46 hdl         Since in the end it was proved that Nozebra could not provide users with the same features.
19:46 chris_n     slef: anyway you like as long as it shows up in bugzilla ;-)
19:46 Brooke      thd ++
19:46 thd         gmchalt++
19:46 hdl         gmcharlt: this example is quite good.
19:46 slef        chris_n: can we vote by mail? ;)
19:46 paul_p      tajoli++ (consensus on core changes)
19:46 slef        hdl: no, should be added to a release category.
19:45 chris_n     how hard is it to read and vote, folks?
19:45 tajoli      No, for me consenus is mandatory only on core change (like Solr)
19:45 hdl         sekjal: should contain a release number when planned.
19:45 slef        chris_n: using bugzilla's voting could be good.
19:45 thd         tajoli: Core: changes can often be written to require less of a core change instead of either/or alternative.
19:45 gmcharlt    hence some disagreement can be dealt with by accommodate paralel implementations of the same functionality
19:45 paul_p      sekjal, that's what I did with RFC last week, but can probably still be improved
19:45 slef        hdl: at least 1 so far to each. more promo/discussiomn needed, but it's up to me to get it. I'm not going to suggest others have some duty to care about our ideas.
19:45 cfouts      sekjal++
19:45 chris_n     what about using bugzilla's vote feature to help clarify community consensus on any given RFC?
19:45 gmcharlt    two search engines, both (more or less) supported
19:44 gmcharlt    hdl: well, consider Zebra vs. NoZebra
19:44 sekjal      since there is no guarantee that any RFC will be part of any release, perhaps the RFC section of the wiki should be decoupled from any release number
19:44 hdl         gmcharlt: can you detail ?
19:44 slef        hdl: only 3 in 3.4 category so far I think.
19:44 hdl         how many response ?
19:44 gmcharlt    the syspref mechanism being the obvious example
19:43 gmcharlt    note that there are technical mechanisms to solve at least a couple of the social problems
19:43 hdl         how many RFC have you posted ?
19:43 dpk         I think forms like this could be used to review RFCs that lack feedback.
19:43 slef        hdl: not for me.
19:43 Brooke      sounds a bit like free code day
19:43 LBA         tajoli...really?
19:43 Brooke      hmmm
19:43 hdl         slef: but it seems that it is quite often the case.
19:43 paul_p      tajoli, "in the next version" => not necessary.
19:43 wizzyrea    they can come out any time within the cycle
19:43 tajoli      But for core change (like solr), we need a vote
19:43 wizzyrea    well a dedicated week or month where RFC's that could concievably be delivered in time for the next release are discussed
19:42 hdl         (too seldom in fact)
19:42 tajoli      I think that RFC only about "feature" you can say: I whant you opinion (on dev e general list) and if there aren't disagree, the answer is "the next version"
19:42 slef        LBA: you can't tell what non-response means except it wasn't enough to get a response.
19:42 thd         LBA: However, there is a duty of developers and sponsors to promote discussion.
19:42 hdl         s/lave/late/
19:42 hdl         wizzyrea: to lave only once a release.
19:42 jwagner_    paul_p -- ditto -- there has to be some way to decide as a group what's in the best interest
19:42 Brooke      where's the line between local customisation and a fork?
19:42 chris       not talk about taling about rfc
19:42 * Brooke    gets out the bottle of gasoline
19:41 thd         LBA: Silence is abstaining at least
19:41 chris       i think people should talk about rfc
19:41 paul_p      owen, exactly !!! so = what is the project's best interest ? who decides what it is ?
19:41 jwagner_    owen, developers may not either.
19:41 Brooke      uh
19:41 Brooke      so
19:41 * chris_n   thinks people should comment on RFCs even if only to say "nice idea"
19:41 LBA         wizzyrea++
19:41 hdl         jwagner_: not only sponsors... But users.
19:41 chris_n     jwagner_: yes, but they are effectively members of the community as well and so are one voice of many
19:41 wizzyrea    What about a RFC roundup at the end of every release, to see what could possibly, given a delivery date of X before the next release, go in
19:41 owen        jwagner_: Sponsors don't always have the project's best interests in mind
19:41 thd         cait++
19:41 LBA         yes thd, does silence mean "good idea!" or "yikes, no way" or "I'm too busy"
19:40 thd         paul_p: There is a space between a guarantee and silence
19:40 jwagner_    Sponsors should be able to say if it's a good feature
19:40 LBA         I don't think anyone expects a guarantee of inclusion in next release but a tentative yes or no is important
19:40 chris_n     well developed and promoted RFCs are a must; however, people participation is a must also
19:40 cait        I think if someone has a problem with an rfc he will speak up - I really like the proposed things for acq and serials
19:40 paul_p      s/it's/it will/
19:40 slef        we can say that
19:40 paul_p      but we (community) should be able to say "yes it's a good feature" or "no, it's not a good feature".
19:39 cait        so what guarantees do you expect?
19:39 paul_p      chris, I fully agree with that (guaranted acceptance in a release)
19:39 slef        paul_p: speak for your own rfcs!
19:39 chris       YOU CANT HAVE GUARANTEES
19:39 chris       i dont know how i can say this any other way
19:39 paul_p      but until now, rfc resulted in only few responses
19:38 chris       still will not result in the feature being guaranteed acceptance in a release
19:38 slef        but any supporter could
19:38 slef        rfc author usually leads consensus-building
19:38 chris       deciding on a rfc
19:38 Brooke      provided no response on rfc
19:38 Brooke      here now or on the listserv
19:38 LBA         paul_p++
19:38 paul_p      Brooke, ok, but what/who/when do we make a consensus ?
19:37 Brooke      just do it is nice but you're gambling on inclusion
19:37 jwagner_    paul_p++
19:37 Brooke      consensus before a write = less risk of a drop
19:37 paul_p      because it's silly to invest a lot of time if the feature is not accepted at the end. Everybody will have pain with that
19:37 paul_p      - is the feature something we want into Koha => we must decide before it's written if yes or no
19:36 paul_p      (I mean technically OK)
19:36 paul_p      - is a code properly written => RM role, we all agree
19:36 paul_p      according to me there are 2 differents things :
19:35 paul_p      back to previous discussion ;-)
19:35 chris       oh look theres that thing i said was on the agenda for later
19:34 gmcharlt    RFCs agreement workflow (discussion about the workflow for RFCs to be accepted/validated)
19:34 gmcharlt    OK, moving on
19:33 gmcharlt    owen: autocomplete sounds perfect to start - only a few places use it
19:33 hdl         (yes... But should this be done on the same branch ?)
19:33 owen        I think we might put off doing buttons/menus until the jUI menu widget comes out of beta
19:33 owen        The jUI autocomplete widget is out of beta, so that might be something to start with
19:33 gmcharlt    hdl: good idea, but also a different matter - orthogonal to jQuery/UI replacing YUI
19:33 owen        Well, we actually need to merge some non-UI jquery things to jUI as well, so I thought we'd start with tabs
19:32 hdl         could also be done with some performance improvements of javascript( putting javascript at teh end of pages for instanceà
19:32 gmcharlt    owen: any suggestions, off-hand, about what to try first?
19:32 owen        I agree with gmcharlt on replacing particular widgets first
19:31 owen        paul_p: No, because jQuery is all JavaScript, not CSS
19:31 robinHome   One thing (I think) worth looking at at the same time is making Koha work with current jquery. It's stuck on an old version at the moment.
19:31 paul_p      owen, why ? isn't there a css grid with jqueryui ?
19:31 gmcharlt    and pick a particular widget to replace first
19:31 gmcharlt    so I suggest that we introduce jQuery/UI
19:31 owen        everything but the CSS grids layout
19:31 gmcharlt    ok, so how about this: it is an open question whether a complete switchover could be done in 3.4
19:30 paul_p      owen, bug ? or but ?
19:30 jwagner_    I think jquery is the better path for the future
19:30 owen        I'm for abandoning YUI for everything bug the CSS grids layout
19:30 paul_p      BibLibre devs complains about having 2 differents toolkits
19:30 robinHome   Yeah, I'm quite fond of the idea.
19:30 gmcharlt    and I think jQuery/UI is up to the task
19:30 wizzyrea    owen, do you have a feeling about abandoning YUI
19:30 gmcharlt    from my point of view, does have advantages, primarily because it would simplify things
19:30 paul_p      I feel it's a good idea.
19:30 paul_p      gmcharlt, yep, I suggested that. But have no specific plan. Just wondering
19:29 slef        can it be done at tt-switchover time?
19:29 paul_p      not sure it's the easiest one, but it will be the less hard-discuted one ;-)
19:29 gmcharlt    this is a proposal from paul_p (?) to replace use of YUI with jQuery/UI
19:29 slef        sounds ok to me... implications?
19:29 gmcharlt    jqueryui adoption instead of YUI
19:29 gmcharlt    I'm going to pick the easiest one first to start:
19:28 gmcharlt    moving onward, four items left
19:28 robinHome   slef: I don't think it would. It would effectively be GPLv2, but with unused bits added.
19:28 gmcharlt    ok, I think we've exhausted this one (discussion of licenses can go on wiki and list)
19:28 thd         jwagner: we can discuss anything but neither LGPL nor Apache are permissible upgrades from GPL 2, invoked with the or later version option
19:28 slef        robinHome: would it gain *anything* at all?
19:27 davi        LGPL --
19:27 davi        s/GPLv+/GPLv3+/
19:27 robinHome   LGPL would be a wierd one for a web app.
19:27 davi        jwagner, I think only options were: 1) as now, 2) GPLv+ 3) AGPLv3+
19:27 thd         ... and catching up on KohaCon
19:27 jwagner_    OK, we will add those and some others for consideration.
19:26 thd         I would have done more in advance but I have been researching Z39.50 options.
19:26 gmcharlt    jwagner_: I don't recall LGPL and Apache being discussed, but if you want to advocate for them, I think that would be in bounds; I do suggest doing so before the meeting next month
19:25 thd         gmcharlt++
19:25 jwagner_    To clarify, the page shows three licenses.  There were others being considered, as I recall (LGPL and Apache) -- should they be added to this page?
19:25 davi        if somebody came first I will just review and improve it if possible
19:25 gmcharlt    and dedicate a portion of the next general IRC meeting to decide the logics of if, when, and how to hold the vote
19:25 davi        I will add content to the http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_AGPL_3_option one, as promised when I have time
19:25 gmcharlt    I propose that we put out a call to review the material that thd and others have put together
19:24 gmcharlt    regarding the ballot
19:24 wizzyrea    thd: I am sorry that you had those problems at all :(
19:24 thd         http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Copyright_License_Upgrade_Ballot_IRC_Meeting_-_13_July_2010
19:24 thd         I am sorry that my broken computer, and infection which will not leave me created a delay.
19:24 davi        looking
19:23 thd         Most importantly I summarised the special ballot IRC meeting.
19:23 slef        ok, I'll look by weekend
19:23 thd         The content is all linked from http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_copyright_license
19:22 thd         I actually made some improvements to the wiki to make the information easier to find.
19:21 chris_n     paul_p: then we can have all of the discussion necessary :)
19:21 thd         During KohaCon I added content to the wiki to restart the license upgrade ballot process after KohaCon
19:21 paul_p      (and still not convinced, but I'll live with it, no problem)
19:21 gmcharlt    thd: I assume you add this one, so the floor is yours
19:21 chris_n     paul_p: I'll make a post to the list later
19:20 paul_p      gmcharlt, (I don't have a problem, I just want to understand)
19:20 gmcharlt    Restarting the Koha copyright license upgrade ballot process for Koha 3.4 previously postponed from the Koha Copyright License Upgrade Ballot IRC Meeting - 13 July 2010.
19:20 gmcharlt    next item
19:20 gmcharlt    we have a bunch of other big topics on the agenda
19:20 gmcharlt    moving on - if people have a problem with chris_n's proposed management of 3.2.x, let's take it to the mailing lists
19:20 chris       and then pulled back to 3.2.x
19:20 paul_p      thd, we used CVS when I was RMaint, that's much different (and we had not so many contributors as we have today)
19:20 slef        I doubt clients would want to break community development.
19:19 chris       if a bug exists in 3.2.x it exists in master
19:19 chris       jwagner_: patches should be submitted on master
19:19 * jwagner_  is getting confused
19:19 chris       so now i can get asked 50 questions at once nd have a chance to respond
19:19 thd         paul_p: You were release maintainer when patches were being submitted to the current branch in addition to HEAD/master.
19:19 jwagner_    chris_n, can you clarify the process?  Patches for 3.2.x also go into the line for 3.4?
19:19 hdl         ( Brooke becaus managers will be managers ;à) )
19:19 * chris     is back at his computer
19:18 chris       there should never ever ever ever ever bet x00 patches at once again
19:18 chris_n     but that is really always the case
19:18 * Brooke    is having trouble understanding why clients are easier to talk to than Release Managers
19:18 chris_n     before submitting for 3.2.x
19:18 thd         hdl: We actually did that at one time in general.
19:18 chris_n     paul_p: once things diverge to that point, the submitter will be responsible to ensure that the patch merges
19:18 hdl         And chris_n would be able to ask for someone for signoff
19:17 jwagner_    Brooke, submission can depend on client approval, so there might very well be many at once.
19:17 slef        paul_p: depends what for. security has its own patches for stable.
19:17 paul_p      gmcharlt, what is the problem with having patches for 3.2.x and cherry picking them to head ?
19:17 hdl         I would propose that bugfixes on 3.2 would be submit by companies on both branches when they diverge.
19:17 gmcharlt    paul_p: chris_n can pick and choose; there is no obligation to backport everything from HED to 3.2.x
19:17 thd         paul_p: Do you mean too many to examine?
19:17 Brooke      early submission means shouldn't be X00 patches at a given moment, no?
19:17 paul_p      do you (all) know if project like Debian on linux does like this ? I thought they had patches for stable & patches for "master", and they were differents
19:16 paul_p      gmcharlt, how I see it : when there will be X00 patches in master, that will be a BIG deal for chris_n to deal with them. hdl had this problem for 3.0.x
19:16 thd         gmcharlt++
19:16 slef        gmcharlt++
19:16 chris_n     hdl: it seems rather clear that when that happens, we will push the patch to a testing branch and then merge it to the 3.2.x branch
19:15 cait        gmcharlt++
19:15 jwagner_    hdl++
19:15 gmcharlt    paul_p: another way of stating - if a particular patch is too difficult to cherry-pick into 3.2.x, it is likely too much of a new feature to stick into 3.2.x with 3.4 coming in spring 2011
19:15 hdl         Don't you want to think about a plan beforehand ?
19:15 chris_n     if something turns up uniquely 3.2.x, we will deal with that
19:14 slef        chris_n++
19:14 paul_p      gmcharlt, ???
19:14 gmcharlt    paul_p: 3.2.x does not need to be all things to all users; with chris' time-based release for 3.4, focuses on bugfixes for 3.2.x is fine
19:14 * nengard   apologizes but she has to go teach a webinar now - will read the logs later
19:14 chris_n     hdl: I plan to cross that bridge when I come to it :)
19:14 paul_p      so I think it would be better to have patches on stable cherry picked to master
19:13 chris_n     so Nov 22, Dec 22, etc
19:13 paul_p      because there are too much patches on master, and new features & all that stuff
19:13 chris_n     I plan to release ever 30 days unless there are no patches to push
19:13 hdl         chris_n what is your plan when HEAD will diverge from 3.2 ?
19:13 paul_p      about this question: i think cherry picking patches from master to stable is one of the pains hdl had with 3.0 RMaint.
19:13 gmcharlt    cool
19:13 cait        chris_n++
19:13 chris_n     that's the procedure I plan to follow for the foreseeable future
19:13 sekjal      chris_n++ (for that)
19:12 chris_n     ok, I'm pushing patches as fast as they show up in HEAD at present
19:12 gmcharlt    chris_n: please go ahead (I already mentioned the Nov 22nd date for 3.2.1)
19:12 gmcharlt    yes
19:12 nengard     should we go back to chris_n for his update on 3.2?
19:12 paul_p      gmcharlt, yep, that's my opinion too
19:11 hdl         (due to the hard work we are all contributing on 3.2)
19:11 gmcharlt    paul_p: we should - this is a discussion that cannot properly take place without chris
19:11 hdl         So it could be quite a heavy task to rebase on a day to base those branches.
19:11 slef        chris: I should have given you lessons!
19:11 paul_p      should we suspend the meeting until chris is fully with us ?
19:11 hdl         And rebasing is quite dangerous.
19:11 slef        LBA: I'll cover that later.
19:11 chris       Bbl
19:11 chris       I can't type fast enough
19:10 chris       Ok this doesn't work on the phone
19:10 hdl         gmcharlt++
19:10 hdl         and thanks for that
19:10 chris_n     back; sorry, got called away
19:10 chris       And gmcharlt has done testing on the reports
19:10 nengard     this is all under the next agenda item - we're still on roadmap to 3.4
19:10 LBA         slef, basing this belief on what others have said on the list.
19:10 hdl         our code was always public
19:10 chris       Send code early and oftwn
19:10 hdl         for rebasing all the branches.
19:09 hdl         much work has been done
19:09 sekjal      It would certainly make developers lives easier if there was some kind of criteria we could code towards that would make our developments strong candidates for inclusion
19:09 tajoli      But Zebra with ICU has many problems
19:09 slef        LBA: oh. What's you most recent experience?
19:09 gmcharlt    chris: hdl: paul_p: anything specific to say about that?
19:09 jwagner_    Sorry, not clear on the responses.  What about SOLR?
19:08 LBA         cait and brendan....I don't think that's how it works in practice
19:08 gmcharlt    sub-item: BibLibre branches submitted to QA (roadmap & what's still expected from BibLibre. feedback from librarians)
19:08 paul_p      brendan, that's impossible to "let's see" for large devs !
19:08 gmcharlt    moving onwards
19:08 slef        tajoli++
19:08 gmcharlt    there are items later in the agenda that can cover some of this ground
19:08 tajoli      I have users that can't use it
19:08 chris       Yes
19:08 cait        brendan++
19:08 slef        chris: are you ok passing fixed-in-3.4 bugs to 3.2?
19:08 tajoli      That is difficult to say Yes/No on Solr
19:08 jwagner_    chris, my comment is for later, or the SOLR one?
19:07 slef        I've never had no comment to an RFC, as far as I can recall.
19:07 chris       For later
19:07 chris       This is its own agenda iten
19:07 hdl         jwagner_++
19:07 paul_p      what about our RFC for moving to solR for example ?
19:07 jwagner_    The customers sponsoring the work are defining the specifications and ultimately the direction of the application (not just our customers, all customers of all vendors).
19:07 paul_p      chris: not off topic !
19:07 nengard     slef++
19:07 brendan     no comments should = go with it - let's see what it looks like
19:07 slef        LBA: then ask again.
19:07 chris       So is there anything more about 3.4?
19:06 slef        paul_p: ask me after.
19:06 LBA         what if the community doesn't comment?
19:06 magnus      nengard++
19:06 chris       Ok way off topic
19:06 paul_p      slef, OK. So how do we build consensus ?
19:06 nengard     you put up the rfc, the community comments and if the comments are positive the concept is accepted - but if you code it like crap chris gets to throw it out
19:06 hdl         When ?
19:06 hdl         how Who ?
19:06 slef        build consensus around the rfc
19:06 LBA         that's what I'm trying to understand...where do concepts get accepted?
19:06 thd         :)
19:06 nengard     chris++
19:05 chris       I don't accept concepts I accept code
19:05 LBA         jwagner++
19:05 nengard     that's a community decision
19:05 thd         paul_p: What is two different things?
19:05 nengard     i don't think that the RM should get the only say in what concept is accepted
19:05 chris       Yes
19:05 jwagner_    The concept could be accepted, but the code might need work.
19:05 paul_p      checking if it's technically OK => we all agree.
19:05 wizzyrea    fix and resubmit?
19:05 jwagner_    chris, two different problems -- the concept and the actual code
19:05 slef        it's up to the devs to make it good enough for inclusion
19:04 hdl         but even then... you could say no
19:04 chris       What if it has sql injections?
19:04 paul_p      chris, that's 2 differents things !
19:04 chris       Until I see the code
19:04 slef        yay, a train!
19:04 chris       jwagner: they won't ever get that from me
19:04 chris       nengard yes
19:03 Brooke      (harmony is hard to dictate)
19:03 nengard     (and other stuff i'm sure)
19:03 nengard     with the new code
19:03 nengard     and to make sure features aren't scrapped
19:03 wasabi      morning
19:03 jwagner_    They would like some assurance that it will be included in a future release.
19:03 nengard     as a community we can agree in principle with the idea or suggest tweaks/changes - but i see what chris is saying - he job is to evaluate coda
19:03 * wasabi    waves
19:03 paul_p      I still feel something is missing in our workflow...
19:03 jwagner_    chris, I have a problem with that workflow -- if we have customers who have contracted for that work, we have to do it and submit it.
19:03 chris       I will certainly say things sound like a good idea
19:02 chris       I care once it exists
19:02 slef        so no ageed-in-principle for 3.4?
19:02 chris       Others should comment on it before it exists
19:02 paul_p      ok, got it
19:02 cait        before will not ensure good code
19:02 thd         Like committing, ask early and ask often
19:02 paul_p      chris : ???
19:02 chris       I'm rm not god
19:02 paul_p      if before => that's exactly what I want to "implement" in our workflow !
19:01 chris       Not my worry
19:01 paul_p      if after => pain for the guy who did the job
19:01 slef        LBA: yippee, please do?
19:01 paul_p      chris, you'll ask ppl before of after it's submitted ?
19:01 chris       Like I'm doing with analytical stuff
19:01 cait        no regression
19:00 chris       Ill ask people
19:00 LBA         what's the best I can hope for (as a client contracting with a developer) in terms of what kind of responses my developer might get to his or her RFP?
19:00 wizzyrea    of course
19:00 paul_p      I know I'm annoying you when asking this question, but it's still unclear to me!
19:00 wizzyrea    signed off where appropriate
19:00 wizzyrea    [bug xxxx, xxxx] [Signed Off] Commit message
19:00 chris       It all is in the maybe stage
19:00 paul_p      chris: jumping in my ml-thread question: how will you decide if a feature is something good or not for Koha ? (independantly from being well coded)
19:00 thd         promises, promises :)
19:00 chris       From an rfc
18:59 hdl         or use a naming convetion ?
18:59 chris       But ill never promise something for a release
18:59 chris       I might say not for this release
18:59 nengard     gmcharlt++
18:59 hdl         Should we add that as a remark ?
18:59 cait        I think the more information the better
18:59 chris       LBA: no
18:59 slef        thd: something to do with souffles IIRC
18:59 chris       I make branches for every bug yes
18:59 gmcharlt    nengard: and proof is easier to come by if we collectively commit to reviewing, testing, and signoff on each other's patches
18:59 paul_p      (gotcha, thx)
18:59 LBA         Chris, might you say yes to the concept at RFC stage?
18:59 hdl         maybe a link to the branch exposed could help....
18:58 thd         paul_p: There must be an equivalent expression in French.
18:58 hdl         So there should be branch for the bug.
18:58 nengard     once he sees the proof that it's good stuff
18:58 chris       List them all
18:58 nengard     paul_p it means that if it's good code he'll put it in
18:58 chris       hdl: yes
18:58 hdl         Some patch will fix other bugs.
18:58 paul_p      (the proof is in the pudding ???)
18:58 hdl         should all of them have the same bug attached ?
18:58 gmcharlt    hdl: that's not a problem
18:57 chris       But the proof is in the pudding
18:57 hdl         chris : multiple patch can refer to one bug
18:57 chris       :)
18:57 chris       I might say no tho
18:57 chris       I'm not saying yes to anything based on an rfc
18:57 cait        chris++
18:57 chris       Patch early patch often
18:57 LBA         librarian humor :-D
18:57 nengard     chris++
18:57 chris       Until I see the code
18:56 chris       For my rule its all maybe
18:56 cait        Brooke++
18:56 Brooke      the code is a living organism
18:56 Brooke      save the time of the developers
18:56 LBA         thank you gmcharlt!  one of my q's answered: multple bug numbers per RFC
18:56 thd         slef: I am not certain about categories.
18:56 nengard     :)
18:56 hdl         nengard: namely including link to wiki RFC in bug file description... and link to bug in RFC.
18:56 cait        Ilove ranganathan
18:56 chris       Or else !
18:56 paul_p      (or is it eclipse foundation ?)
18:55 chris       Every patch its bug and every bug its patch
18:55 slef        thd: can you sub to/watch a category?
18:55 paul_p      chris, foundations like lucene have a roadmap displaying "will be" "maybe", "could be" in the next release on the roadmap. Do you think it could be a good thing ?
18:55 wizzyrea    goes both ways: put a link in your bug to your RFC as well
18:55 gmcharlt    nengard: yes, RFCs should have a corresopnding bug (or bugs, a big RFC could consist of several discrete features)
18:55 LBA         nengard: ++
18:55 nengard     so - if you write and rfc report a bug/enhancement and put a link to that on your rfc for the rest of us to help with tracking :)
18:55 thd         slef: you can subscribe an email address to specific pages in the wiki and specific bugs in bugzilla for updates.
18:55 chris       And rule 2 I won't make many exceptions for
18:55 nengard     awesome
18:54 chris       Rule 2 makes tracking rfc possible
18:54 hdl         nengard: maybe cross reference could be good
18:54 paul_p      slef: good question.
18:54 slef        ok, so that leaves in-discussion, needs work, help, not for 3.4 and what else?
18:54 chris       Yes
18:54 gmcharlt    4. chris will make exceptions if he feels are needed
18:54 wizzyrea    and he's also logging his work at http://koha-releasemanagement.branchable.com/
18:54 nengard     would it be helpful if people who put up RFCs include a bug/enhancement for it so that that can be the number associated with them both (rfc and patch) ?
18:54 gmcharlt    3. branches will be merged into master after testing
18:53 gmcharlt    2. a patches should refer to a bug number
18:53 gmcharlt    1. all patches should have at least one signoff before it hits RM (except for trival patches); preferably two, one from QA manager and one from someones
18:53 chris       The rest is up to you guys to sort out
18:53 chris       I will update any rfcs I have merged code for
18:53 gmcharlt    I'll summarize some points from that release plan since chris doesn't have easy copy-and-paste
18:52 slef        how can we track status of rfcs?
18:52 chris       :)
18:52 chris       Follow them and we might hit 6 months
18:52 nengard     oops
18:52 nengard     http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roadmap_to_3.4
18:52 gmcharlt    http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roadmap_to_3.4
18:52 chris       Thems the rules
18:52 chris       Look for roadmap to 3.4 on the wiki
18:51 chris       Ok id paste but it takes too long to find it on the phone
18:51 gmcharlt    chris: floor is yours
18:51 gmcharlt    moving first to the general update
18:51 gmcharlt    Update on 3.4, which has two sub-items
18:51 gmcharlt    going twice ... on to the next agenda item
18:51 gmcharlt    indeed
18:50 wizzyrea    Thanks to HDL for his continued good work on 3.0.x
18:50 gmcharlt    going once...
18:50 gmcharlt    any questions regarding 3.0.x/3.0.7 ?
18:50 gmcharlt    hdl: thanks for the update
18:50 hdl         next week
18:50 hdl         I have to remove them.
18:49 hdl         i realised that some new features BibLibre wrote was mistakenly introduced in 3.0.x repository
18:49 gmcharlt    hdl: do you have an ETA?
18:49 Lee         :-) Paul
18:49 LBA         Lori Ayre, Galecia Group.
18:49 paul_p      Paul Poulain, BibLibre, good morning|evening|afternoon|night|whatever everybody !
18:49 hdl         still to be released.
18:49 gmcharlt    hdl: the floor is yours
18:49 gmcharlt    so on to the next, which is Update on 3.0
18:48 cait        perhaps he is not back yet
18:48 gmcharlt    we can go back to that agenda item if need be
18:48 chris       Yay
18:48 cait        he told me he was going to lunch earlier
18:48 gmcharlt    if not, I'll relay one thing that chris_n has stated, which is that he intends to release 3.2.1 on 22 November 2010
18:48 fredericd   Frédéric Demians, Tamil
18:48 munin       chris: chris_n was last seen in #koha 2 hours, 19 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <chris_n> or does git take care of all of that in a transparent fashion?
18:48 chris       @seen chris_n
18:48 gmcharlt    chris_n: about?
18:47 Brooke      jransom says sorry she's late via twitter
18:47 * owen      didn't see chris_n check in
18:47 gmcharlt    chris_n: as the 3.2 release maintainer, it's all yours
18:46 gmcharlt    the first agenda item is Update on Roadmap to 3.2
18:46 chris       Crap at 5% already
18:46 * hdl       Henri-Damien LAURENT, BibLibre release Maitainer 3.0
18:46 gmcharlt    ok, thanks - newcomers feel free to introduce yourselves as you enter
18:45 * Elwell    = Andrew Elwell, Lurker :-)
18:45 * dpk       Doug Kingston, English Folk Dance and Song Society, London, UK <dpk@efdss.org>
18:45 * slef      = MJ Ray, software.coop
18:45 indradg     indradg = Indranil Das Gupta, L2C2 Technologies, India
18:45 * clrh      Claire Hernandez I'mnew at Biblibre, France
18:45 robinHome   <-- Robin Sheat, Catalyst IT
18:45 pauln       Paul Nielsen, Hauraki District Libraries
18:44 thd         Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
18:44 * slef      = MJ Ray
18:44 Lee         Lee Phillips-Butte Public library Montana
18:44 anitsirk    = Kristina Hoeppner, Catalyst IT
18:44 Colin       Colin Campbell PTFS Europe Ltd
18:44 * cait      = Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
18:44 magnus      Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway
18:44 * chris     is chris cormack, catalyst, rm 3.4
18:44 cfouts      Clay Fouts, PTFS
18:44 BobB        Bob Birchall, Calyx
18:44 irma        Irma from CALYX Sydney
18:44 * nengard   Nicole C. Engard, ByWater Solutions / Documentation Manager
18:44 * jcamins   = Jared Camins-Esakov, C & P Bibliography Services
18:44 * sekjal_a  : Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions
18:44 brendan     brendan = Brendan Gallagher ByWater Solutions
18:44 jwagner_    Jane Wagner, Liblime/PTFS
18:44 wizzyrea    < Liz Rea, Northeast Kansas Library System
18:44 thd         gmcharlt: check my update yesterday to the agenda
18:44 * owen      = Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library
18:44 * gmcharlt  = Galen Charlton, Equinox
18:44 Lee         Weather for Butte, MT  - 27°F | °C Current: Cloudy Wind: N at 0 mph Humidity: 62%
18:44 gmcharlt    before we start with the agenda proper, let's take a couple minutes for introductions
18:43 gmcharlt    the page for the meeting is http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_Meeting,_10_November_2010
18:43 slef        eta on this train keeps slipping
18:43 gmcharlt    I am calling the meeting to order
18:43 thd         slef: are you here?
18:43 indradg     BobB, you are right
18:43 gmcharlt    it is now 19:00 UTC+0
18:43 clrh        Hello everybody
18:43 munin       magnus: The current temperature in Bodo, Norway is -2.0�C (7:50 PM CET on November 10, 2010). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 51%. Dew Point: -11.0�C. Windchill: -8.0�C. Pressure: 29.47 in 998 hPa (Falling).
18:43 magnus      @wunder bodo, norway
18:42 BobB        23 C is cool in kolkata
18:42 Lee         hi Irma
18:42 slef        hey Lee
18:42 slef        it doesn't know the city
18:42 munin       indradg: The current temperature in Kolkata, India is 23.0�C (12:20 AM IST on November 11, 2010). Conditions: Haze. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 21.0�C. Pressure: 29.86 in 1011 hPa (Steady).
18:42 indradg     @wunder kolkata
18:42 Lee         hey Bob B I loved my 3 days in Sydney
18:42 anitsirk    good morning irma
18:42 cait        hi irma
18:42 munin       brendan: The current temperature in Northwest Goleta, Goleta, California is 17.9�C (10:58 AM PST on November 10, 2010). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 61%. Dew Point: 10.0�C. Pressure: 29.94 in 1013.8 hPa (Steady).  Wind Advisory in effect from 3 PM this afternoon to 3 am PST Thursday...
18:42 irma        g'day all
18:41 brendan     @wunder 93117
18:41 munin       gmcharlt: Error: No such location could be found.
18:41 gmcharlt    @wunder bristol, england
18:41 * Brooke    comforts Bob
18:41 munin       cait: The current temperature in Taegerwilen, Taegerwilen, Germany is 7.6�C (7:58 PM CET on November 10, 2010). Conditions: Light Drizzle. Humidity: 87%. Dew Point: 6.0�C. Windchill: 8.0�C. Pressure: 29.55 in 1000.6 hPa (Steady).
18:41 anitsirk    sunny in wellington (again)
18:41 cait        @wunder Konstanz
18:41 munin       slef: The current temperature in Bristol Airport, United Kingdom is 2.0�C (6:50 PM GMT on November 10, 2010). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 75%. Dew Point: -2.0�C. Windchill: 0.0�C. Pressure: 29.65 in 1004 hPa (Steady).
18:41 slef        @wunder bristol airport
18:41 munin       gmcharlt: Error: No such location could be found.
18:41 gmcharlt    @wunder bristol, united kingdom
18:41 BobB        Oh well.  Day break in the harbour city
18:41 munin       slef: Error: No such location could be found.
18:41 slef        @wunder bristol, bristol
18:41 magnus      hi anitsirk!
18:41 munin       BobB: Error: No such location could be found.
18:41 BobB        @wunder Sydney
18:41 slef        bah
18:40 nengard     WOO HOO!! My book has finally arrived!! It flew through JFL no wonder it took so long :)
18:40 munin       slef: Error: No such location could be found.
18:40 slef        @wunder bristol, united kingdom
18:40 dpk         dpk@efdss.org
18:40 Lee         MJ hey!
18:40 munin       slef: Error: No such location could be found.
18:40 slef        @wunder bristol
18:40 munin       slef: Error: No such location could be found.
18:40 slef        @wunder bristol uk
18:40 robinHome   hi hi
18:40 anitsirk    hi bob and robin
18:39 slef        brr
18:39 Brooke      kia ora
18:39 Lee         thanks
18:39 BobB        Good morning good people.
18:38 Brooke      I've linked em to the wiki
18:38 Brooke      aye
18:38 anitsirk    sorry for being slow in putting videos online. i just started on walter's again as it took ages. i upload them in order. rosalie and lee are online (lee was easy as nengard had already uploaded lee's video).
18:38 Lee         hey Cait ;-)
18:36 Lee         making a cup of 'white tea" LOL
18:36 nengard     gonna grab me some soup for lunch and then back here for the meeting
18:34 indradg     hi all
18:34 anitsirk    chris: hehe. penny was on the train during the mahara irc meeting last night - went off and continued typing on her laptop while walking.
18:33 Barrc       anyone have a quick easy way to remove itemless bibs?
18:33 chris       hopefully can get past the 3.4 roadmap, and then ill be at work for the rest :)
18:33 chris       and hopefully irc from there if the phone doesnt cut out
18:32 gmcharlt    chris++
18:32 chris       im about to catch my bus
18:32 chris       no
18:32 anitsirk    chris: are you upstairs?
18:32 anitsirk    hi chris and jwagner
18:32 chris       there we go
18:32 hudsonbot   Koha_Master: last build: 135 (9 hr 32 min ago): SUCCESS: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_Master/135/
18:32 hudsonbot   Koha_3.2.x: last build: 25 (3 hr 48 min ago): SUCCESS: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_3.2.x/25/
18:32 hudsonbot   Koha_3.0.x: last build: 2 (10 days ago): FAILURE: http://bugs.koha-community.org:8080/job/Koha_3.0.x/2/
18:32 hudsonbot   status of all projects:
18:32 chris       !hudson status
18:31 Lee         liz the pic i took at Jo's library of you is cute... it will be in the albums for Flickr...okay?
18:31 anitsirk    hi magnus
18:31 nengard     only if I ever get it
18:30 Lee         you can bring your book...
18:30 wizzyrea    hi hudson!
18:30 Lee         ex-cell-ent!
18:30 nengard     i'll schedule surgery around it if drugs don't work :)
18:29 nengard     i have you pencilled in - so go ahead and tell the board
18:29 Lee         I hope the drugs works...(selfish motives)
18:29 Lee         Sooo if you have he week free  I will let you know the rest after board meeting next wed.
18:29 nengard     maybe longer if the drugs work
18:29 nengard     and i talked to doc and he put me on new drugs - so no surgery between now and january at the very least
18:28 nengard     k
18:28 Lee         BTW Nic talked with Stef and we think Butte in March is a great idea
18:28 cait        do you have the video of pual and hdl doing the haka?
18:28 nengard     picassa? I found you on flickr? why not flickr?
18:28 nengard     hehe
18:28 Lee         Just got to picasa will send links to you
18:28 * cait      wants pics too
18:27 Lee         yup
18:27 nengard     ooo
18:27 nengard     pics?? :)
18:27 Lee         you too Liz
18:27 cait        hi lee :)
18:27 Lee         I have pics for you
18:27 nengard     :)
18:27 Lee         Nicole!
18:27 wizzyrea    hey lee :)
18:27 nengard     Lee!! :)
18:25 anitsirk    we miss you here, too.
18:24 wizzyrea    woohoo! (dang I miss wgtn)
18:23 anitsirk    as well. it's been a very sunny and warm week again in wgtn
18:23 wizzyrea    and you?
18:23 wizzyrea    good :)
18:23 anitsirk    how are you?
18:23 anitsirk    hello cait and wizzyrea
18:22 wizzyrea    hey kristina
18:22 cait        *waves*
18:22 cait        hi kristina
18:22 cait        I will have to clean them a little bit, I think 2 authorities crept in
18:22 cait        ok
18:22 chris       cait: the wiki?
18:21 chris       gmcharlt: so time :)
18:21 cait        where can we store them?
18:21 chris       excellent
18:21 cait        I have some sample records to test with too
18:21 chris       ideally the both one will work, and we can merge that into master
18:21 cait        cool :)
18:21 chris       then ppl can test them both, or just one or the other
18:21 chris       ill make a branch with yours and osslabs work merged (and 2 sep branches)
18:20 chris       gmcharlt: me figuring out why it stopped
18:20 cait        will try to do that today or tomorrow morning
18:20 cait        ok
18:20 chris       wouldnt hurt
18:20 cait        ah, but perhaps I should rebase first?
18:20 chris       i can merge it in
18:20 cait        you helped me updating it during kohacon :)
18:19 chris       cool
18:19 cait        my latest work is up on the repo
18:19 chris       yup
18:19 gmcharlt    chris: what would it take to get hudsonbot running again?
18:19 cait        ok, pull request?
18:19 chris       if you can give me a branch to pull from
18:19 chris       yes please
18:19 cait        do you think it would help to push my work to a branch as well?
18:19 chris       i will push the new patch that just came through today to there as well
18:18 cait        yep, saw the branch
18:18 chris       http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/new/awaiting_qa/analytical_records
18:18 chris       cait and anyone else interested
18:16 chris       but if i go silent thats why
18:16 chris       hopefully it gets enough charge before the bus
18:16 Brooke      teh ohnoes
18:16 wizzyrea    oof
18:16 chris       chris_phone_being_notcharged--
18:16 wizzyrea    infinite_time++
18:15 * Brooke    cheers Chris
18:14 chris       i can help you guys to merge, yours plus amits, if you think they are both needed thats certainly possible
18:14 cait        hope it will get better... but probably not
18:13 cait        it's been all a bit crazy in the last months
18:13 cait        and I have another presentation next week to prepare for
18:12 jcamins     This is one of the difficulties of having differing priorities at home and at the ANS.
18:12 cait        it's a time problem :(
18:12 wizzyrea    cool, that's really the only reason I brought it up
18:12 cait        too
18:12 cait        yeah on mine two
18:12 jcamins     Looking at it more is on my to-do list.
18:12 jcamins     But I think cait's changes will still be needed.
18:12 jcamins     Well, some of the same issues.
18:11 wizzyrea    k
18:11 jcamins     They address two different issues.
18:11 wizzyrea    ah I was wondering if you had looked at them yet, I know you and jcamins are both interested in that
18:10 cait        it's on a public repo now, but I should have commented on the rfc earlier
18:10 cait        had no time looking at them :( and not sure what will happen with my work on the topic
18:10 cait        ya
18:10 wizzyrea    ya
18:10 cait        about analytics? from Amit then
18:09 wizzyrea    cait: did you see those patches from Amit (and/or jcamins)
18:06 nengard     or daylight
18:06 nengard     stupid saylight savings time
18:06 gmcharlt    unless the switch from daylight savings has thrown me off
18:06 nengard     thanks
18:06 gmcharlt    so I think it is at 14:00 EST
18:06 gmcharlt    worldtimeserver.com says that it's currently 18:22 UTC+0
18:01 nengard     45 min? really? I thought it was later - cool I can be there for some of it
17:58 cait        :)
17:57 wizzyrea    woot galen
17:57 cait        gmcharlt: thank you for signing-off on my patch
17:57 Brooke      hail to the chief
17:57 gmcharlt    if so, I'll be available to chair
17:57 gmcharlt    meeting is in 45 minutes, right?
17:48 chris       ok, gotta go feed kids, do rubbbish, etc before my bus
17:45 wizzyrea    afk, but back in plenty of time for the meeting
17:45 wizzyrea    true
17:43 cait        a lot of items on the agenda
17:43 cait        you will have to very strict with us
17:40 wizzyrea    you may not ask again tho >.>
17:40 wizzyrea    yea, sure I'll do my best
17:39 slef        bbi60
17:39 slef        ta
17:37 wizzyrea    sec
17:37 wizzyrea    let me go look at the agenda
17:37 * wizzyrea  wonders if she can channel gmcharlt
17:37 slef        chair?
17:36 wizzyrea    slef!
17:36 slef        wizzyrea!
17:36 wizzyrea    gitolite… best name ever.
17:35 slef        jcamins?
17:35 sekjal      jcamins:  don't know about Gitorious, but I'm pretty sure Gitolite does (and that's why git.koha-community.org uses)
17:34 chris       heh
17:34 slef        chris on a bus. Me on a train. Anyone going for other transport?
17:34 chris       any volunteers?
17:34 jcamins     slef: Cool, thanks.
17:34 chris       it might be a bit hard to chair it
17:34 chris       so while i will be at the meeting on irc on my phone
17:33 chris       btw, 8am is right when im gonna be on the bus
17:33 chris       yep
17:33 slef        jcamins; I think both chris and I push to the koha repo there.
17:32 Brooke      clearly the solution was to look for mah needlenose nylon plyers
17:32 wizzyrea    ?
17:32 Brooke      I was looking all over for those
17:32 Brooke      OMG mah ivory hearts
17:31 jcamins     Heh. I guess so.
17:31 Brooke      fine then my hunch that it's just to annoy you was correct :P
17:30 jcamins     Brooke: but documents from ILLiad print properly, and without the ridiculous amount of whitespace around the edges that make printing 2-up impossible.
17:29 Brooke      so it can print on standard paper?
17:29 jcamins     Does Gitorious allow you to set up repositories so that multiple people can push to the individual repository?
17:27 jcamins     Why does every document on Ariel always have to be resized to 8.5"x11"? (I know it's not a Koha question, but there's actually a chance that someone here might know)
17:26 * jcamins   curses Ariel
17:10 hdl         sorry was back reading
17:10 slef        hdl: ta. Sekjal wanted one.
17:09 hdl         slef: univ_lyon3.biblibre.com is unimarc
17:08 hdl         but quite old
17:08 hdl         sekjal: koha-fr demo
17:08 hdl         Provided that you use git submodule synhc or update... well... quite.
17:08 hdl         chris_n: Does git take care of all that in a transparent fashion ?
17:07 hdl         chris_n: if we used submodules, then we would basically be maintaining separate repos for each submodule? : yes.
17:03 thd         jcamins: see above [spelt correctly this time]
17:03 Brooke      poked from sound sleep for IRCery
17:03 Brooke      poor kiwis
17:02 jwagner     Good -- I have another meeting before then, wanted to make sure I wasn't doubled up.
17:01 thd         jamins: I think that the general Koha IRC meeting is in an hour and 45 minutes.
17:01 sekjal      I stand corrected
17:01 jwagner     The converter on the wiki page said 2:00 ET
17:01 Brooke      http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx
17:01 sekjal      I have it as 3pm Eastern... but I'm willing to accept my clock got messed up with all the travel and daylight savings
17:00 jwagner     meeting is in not quite two hours from now, yes?
16:53 cait        hi sekjal :)
16:53 Brooke      howdy
16:53 slef        all change! bbi 20
16:53 sekjal      hi, cait!
16:53 cait        hi #koha
16:53 sekjal      going to remove all the nodes that aren't linked to, or don't link out
16:52 sekjal      slef: next one should be smaller
16:52 slef        sekjal: I tried to print one of your interrelation graphs. decided against showing it to users because it's too scary.
16:52 sekjal      wizzyrea:  great!
16:52 wizzyrea    sekjal: biblibre's demo of 3.0.5 is now on the list
16:51 slef        this train sounds ill, like it can't get enough power to accelerate
16:50 sekjal      no one knows for certain (expect perhaps chris), but hopefully we can get all the gems integrated by April 22
16:49 slef        I got asked about that today. Whether all harley code would be in 3.4. I fudged as I'm not sure.
16:49 sekjal      the article is about the wiki page for tracking the integration efforts of Harley into Koha
16:48 slef        oof
16:48 sekjal      PTFS Code Integrated Into Mainline Koha
16:48 slef        sekjal: wassat? I have slow web, on trains
16:47 slef        jcamins: 2 I think
16:47 slef        should we add a "request upgrade" page to "Tools"?
16:47 sekjal      very misleading news headling in the Koha Planet section of www.koha-fr.org
16:47 wizzyrea    but I will add it — yup, unimarc
16:47 jcamins     Oh, right, meeting in an hour?
16:46 slef        anyone tell if it's unimarc?
16:46 wizzyrea    3.00.05.001
16:46 slef        unavoidable :-/
16:46 wizzyrea    there's one listed there ya
16:45 slef        bah, I'm going to be in a notspot for 5mins during today's meeting
16:45 slef        sure they uised to have one... not on http://www.koha-fr.org/ ?
16:45 sekjal      slef: that would be my first thought, yes, but it's not on the wiki page
16:44 wizzyrea    I don't see a demo on their site anywhere
16:44 slef        sekjal: biblibre?
16:43 slef        if it works, I'll start using them on client libs next week or two
16:43 sekjal      does anyone know of a UNIMARC demo out there?  I'm only seeing MARC21 on the wiki
16:42 sekjal      slef: right on!
16:42 wizzyrea    ty kindly
16:42 slef        wizzyrea: ok
16:40 wizzyrea    slef: please add it to the wiki at http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Koha_Demo_Databases so I can pull it into the website
16:39 slef        sekjal: I'm going to do the same with our demo soon.
16:29 chris_n     or does git take care of all of that in a transparent fashion?
16:28 chris_n     hdl: if we used submodules, then we would basically be maintaining separate repos for each submodule?
16:23 chris_n     hey hdl
16:16 sekjal      hi, hdl
16:16 hdl         hi Brooke and all
16:15 sekjal      k
16:15 wizzyrea    might take a minute to show for you since you're not logged in (it's cached)
16:15 sekjal      I've got a bit of a hack in place right now
16:15 sekjal      the primary draw is that the debian packages make restoring much easier
16:14 sekjal      thanks, wizzyrea!
16:14 wizzyrea    up 2 u really
16:14 wizzyrea    done
16:14 Brooke      Noswaith dda
16:14 sekjal      I'm thinking of switching the demo over to run off the debian packages
16:13 Brooke      yeah, some ratbag pestered Bywater to upgrade, and they did in like 10 seconds.
16:13 sekjal      k
16:13 wizzyrea    :)
16:13 wizzyrea    no, I like 3.2
16:13 sekjal      I can get you an exact version number if that'd be helpful
16:13 sekjal      thanks!
16:13 wizzyrea    t
16:13 wizzyrea    k I'll fix i
16:12 sekjal      the bywater demo is now running 3.2; website still says 3.01.00.143
16:12 wizzyrea    i closed all my tabs. I feel a bit naked.
16:12 wizzyrea    sup?
16:11 wizzyrea    yep
16:11 sekjal      wizzyrea: around?
15:59 Brooke      cheers cait
15:58 kf          and time to leave - goodbye all
15:58 kf          hi hdl
15:57 Brooke      bonjour, flying frenchman!
15:50 chris_n     it works afaik
15:50 chris_n     Brooke: nope
15:50 nengard     howdy Brooke and all #koha
15:47 * Brooke    salutes nengard with respect.
15:38 * magnus    gotta make dinner - see y'all for the meeting!
15:38 Brooke      thought it was disabled
15:38 chris_n     sorry
15:37 chris_n     bugzilla
15:37 kf          what is BZ?
15:37 kf          but I have to go and get some rest now before the meeting - d... cold
15:37 chris_n     need I mention that BZ has a voting system
15:37 kf          don't make it too complicated
15:37 sekjal      this is another usecase for a community voting system
15:37 Brooke      yep check box for sounds cool to me
15:37 chris_n     well, even a simple "I concur" would be a step
15:36 kf          where you can add a ++ ;)
15:36 kf          perhaps we just need a section: supporting as laid out...
15:36 kf          that's my problem too
15:36 kf          yep
15:36 sekjal      kf: I know that I feel a little awkward commenting if I have nothing useful to add, and often the RFCs are pretty good as laid out
15:35 magnus      kf: that's what i'm thinking too - tacit agreement...
15:35 kf          I am not sure
15:35 kf          perhaps we don't have so much discussion, because we don't have many questions, or because the proposed features seem ok to us
15:34 kf          and I feel guilty too, because I have not commented on the rfc's - asked questions
15:34 kf          I think that's the problem where we started?
15:34 cfouts      meeting today is at 11am Pacific, yes?
15:34 kf          we are talking a lot about how to make a rfc the right way - but still not talking about the existing ones
15:34 Brooke      which is prolly way better than what most call me ;)
15:32 cfouts      better than what some have called me ;)
15:32 brendan     cfouts that is
15:32 brendan     heh
15:32 brendan     heya cgouts
15:32 chris_n     heya cfouts
15:31 cfouts      good day
15:31 sekjal      and g'morning, cfouts
15:31 brendan     morning sekjal
15:31 sekjal      morning, brendan
15:30 brendan     morning
15:26 wizzyrea    short description, link to fulltext.
15:25 wizzyrea    sponsored status
15:25 wizzyrea    expected date. version. All that needs to be in the bug is the link to the wiki
15:24 wizzyrea    when I say nuts and bolts, I mean things that bz already asks for
15:22 Brooke      and arguably from a long term quality standpoint, as well
15:21 Brooke      it matters from a usability standpoint
15:21 wizzyrea    why not keep the nuts and bolts of it in bz
15:21 * Brooke    thinks that the user stands a better chance of seeing their enhancement through the more effort one puts into the process, but admits that "improper" procedure is better than no flow of information.
15:21 wizzyrea    question: why does it matter, if all that is in the wiki RFC is the narrative of the feature?
15:20 magnus      Brooke: not that I know of, but it should be possible to pull the info into the wiki
15:20 * chris_n   doesn't think we can get away from enh bugs for RFC's
15:20 Brooke      magnus- is there an automated way to sync the information?
15:19 magnus      chris_n: that sounds like a lot of work - you'd need to keep the info synced too - better to keep it in one place, methinks
15:18 chris_n     that might add a level of abstraction for the fearful, yet ensure the process was still followed
15:18 chris_n     magnus: i wonder if the form could be setup to post relevant info to an associated bug in BZ upon posting to the wiki?
15:17 Brooke      *nod*
15:17 magnus      anyway, i think a form would be friendlier then the plain ol' template for adding RFCs to the wiki - and the template already duplicates info that should be in bugzilla...
15:15 thd         Brooke: the default in my head has always been AND.
15:15 kf          thx
15:14 magnus      libbusiness-isbn-perl ?
15:14 kf          ?
15:14 kf          what was the perl package on ubuntu to fix Can't locate Business/ISBN.pm
15:14 kf          hmpf
15:11 Brooke      is there an automated way of deduplicating like RFCs?
15:09 wizzyrea    please, if you want to add something, do.
15:09 wizzyrea    linking to all of the existing documentation
15:09 wizzyrea    That is what I feel this page is for http://koha-community.org/about/enhancing-koha/
15:09 Brooke      at least I think it is
15:08 Brooke      it's getting better chris
15:08 Brooke      bollocks. it was bowling pins, but the box smelt like chocolate and coffee.
15:08 chris_n     the real "challenge" here is getting folks to actually *use* whatever system... and for starters they have to take time to find and read the existing docs
15:08 wizzyrea    so certainly it could be made better.
15:08 wizzyrea    I know for a fact that the RFC template was literally a 5 minute job.
15:06 magnus      s/thing/things/
15:06 braedon|h   you can take our lives, but you can never take our boolean preference!
15:06 Brooke      I must know what's inside!!!1
15:05 magnus      chris_n: well put - i'm not really in favor of moving thing from bugzilla or replicating information - just making the wiki "better"
15:05 * Brooke    can't take this good smelling box anymore.
15:05 chris_n     Brooke: the problem is, low-level logic circuits are usually hard-wired
15:05 * kf        hides
15:05 * kf        is a bit scared of having Brooke messing with her head
15:05 Brooke      I'd change the default in people's heads from OR to AND
15:04 wizzyrea    definitely the template could be improved.
15:04 Brooke      If I could do one thing to this community
15:04 Brooke      *nod*
15:04 chris_n     not so much as a rework of the in-place procedure
15:04 * chris_n   read magnus' suggestion as an improvement to the layout and clarity of the wiki part of an RFC post
15:03 kf          chris_n: know I now what it wrong - my dates
15:02 * wizzyrea  remembers this discussion from kohacon 2 years ago
15:02 wizzyrea    which is supposedly what we're supposed to be doing now.
15:02 kf          chris_n: I offered to help - now I have to live with it ;)
15:01 wizzyrea    I would create a bug with the right status, and the exact same title as your RFC on the wiki, then link it to your fulltext on the wiki.
15:00 chris_n     arachnophobia, rather
14:59 chris_n     kf: tnx for the help
14:59 chris_n     but then there are those who have acrophobia or some other bug-phobia which biases them against bugzilla
14:59 kf          will figure it out
14:59 kf          chris_n: Ithink it's my configuration... something is still missing
14:59 magnus      chris_n: yep, but wouldn't create a page in the wiki
14:58 chris_n     so if the RFC was entered as a bug it could then automatically show in the wiki
14:58 chris_n     well it sounds like the plugin magnus references would work to update the wiki from bugzilla
14:57 Brooke      I think the bar is access. If you don't give a snot about your users, post solely to bugzilla. If you do, duplicate information in friendly formats, then funnel to a developer preferred locale.
14:57 chris_n     kf: it generates messages, but includes $0.00 for all fines regardless of their true value
14:56 chris_n     "Provide reports easy for non-techies to read."
14:56 kf          thx :)
14:56 kf          chris_n: when you said it didn't work for you - did it still create the messages or was that broken too?
14:55 * chris_n   passes kf more fudge
14:55 magnus      chris_n: dunno
14:55 kf          ok, I have fines but no entries in message_queue... hmpf!
14:55 magnus      chris_n: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Bugzilla_Reports (if you didn't see it already)
14:55 chris_n     magnus: could such a setup as you are proposing be made to post to bugzilla automagically?
14:55 braedon|h   Brooke: a good playlist is so much more than the sum of its parts!
14:55 magnus      and the wiki allows for collaborative editing...
14:54 sekjal      I vote Wave-in-a-Box!
14:54 sekjal      neither system is quite right, but the wiki is closer
14:54 chris_n     but keeping the two in sync appears to be an issue
14:54 wizzyrea    why do just one?
14:54 * chris_n   thinks that is the question
14:54 wizzyrea    I think it should be on the wiki, with an entry in bugzilla pointing to it
14:54 magnus      i think one question is: should the meat of an RFC be on bugzilla or in mediawiki?
14:53 sekjal      well, it would be a good exercise in Template Toolkit to write a new interface to Bugzilla that's more librarian-friendly for searching/adding/editing enhancement requests
14:52 wizzyrea    there's no reason you couldn't embed the rss feed for those searches into the wiki.
14:52 * chris_n   imagines a bugzilla plug-in for wikimedia
14:51 wizzyrea    the prior contention was that the bugzilla phobic need to get over it.
14:51 Brooke      true, but it would allow the bugzilla phoebic to avoid bugzilla
14:51 wizzyrea    again, it hinges on people actually using it
14:51 wizzyrea    sekjal, magnus, and chris_n: we kind of use bugzilla for what you're proposing using mediawiki for, and there's a page that lists everything listed as enhancement, and what the status is: http://koha-community.org/about/enhancing-koha/
14:51 Brooke      life's too short bro
14:50 Brooke      one two skip a few
14:50 Brooke      pfft
14:50 braedon|h   my eternal dilemma with playlists and albums - skip a song i hate, or endure to preserve the experience in its entirety
14:50 * Brooke    should have nicked Ema's CD when she had the chance...
14:48 braedon|h   (my least favorite NZ band)
14:47 braedon|h   ooo, but it has minuit :(
14:47 wizzyrea    note: not MY koha hacking playlist, it's Chris's
14:47 Brooke      hai
14:47 wizzyrea    woot
14:47 braedon|h   i belive so, thanks
14:46 wizzyrea    does this work?
14:46 wizzyrea    http://listen.grooveshark.com/#/playlist/Koha+Hacking/8190140
14:45 * owen      is a mashup fan
14:45 * braedon|h has spent the last 2 hours listening to random mashups, rather than sleeping
14:44 wizzyrea    I will have to find it, one sec
14:44 braedon|h   wizzyrea: link?
14:43 sekjal      wizzyrea:  nice!  this album is almost finished, so I'll try to tune in next
14:43 wizzyrea    chris has a koha hacking playlist on grooveshark
14:43 * wizzyrea  just read the backlog...wow
14:11 Brooke      catastrophic: you're a flaming wreck now :P
14:10 * druthb    tries to picture Brooke "caterwauling", and fails the roll.
14:09 * Brooke    is caterwauling to showtunes
14:07 druthb      hi, Brooke. :)
14:06 Brooke      :)
14:06 magnus      yo Brooke
14:05 kf          chris_n: testing it with my older version first, then updating to master and testing again
14:05 sekjal      morning, Brooke
14:04 Brooke      yo
13:57 * sekjal    is only 4 sips into is first cup of coffee, and may be a little sleep-silly
13:57 kf          I am working on it right now :) sorry that it took so long
13:57 kf          oki
13:57 chris_n     please
13:56 chris_n     kf: correct
13:56 sekjal      magnus: we'd just have to learn to write musically
13:56 chris_n     yes
13:56 kf          and your patch didn't work? so just test it again with master?
13:56 kf          about fines in notices: you tested with master and it didn't work, right?
13:56 magnus      hehe, i guess it shouldn't be too hard - but making it sound like anything other than noise? ;-)
13:56 kf          N = n
13:56 kf          hi chris_N
13:55 chris_n     hi kf
13:55 jcamins     Nifty!
13:55 sekjal      and represent each speaker with a different instrument, Peter and the Wolf-style
13:54 sekjal      convert each character or series of characters into a note
13:54 kf          reading the koha code?
13:54 sekjal      magnus:  Oh!  text2music!
13:54 magnus      sekjal: text2speach irc bot?
13:53 kf          chris_n: around?
13:53 sekjal      good music... maybe some news every now and again
13:52 owen        Along with an RM and a QA we'd need a DJ
13:52 jcamins     sekjal: what would it play?
13:51 sekjal      crazy idea: a #koha internet radio station
13:49 sekjal      hi, kf!
13:49 kf          hi sekjal :)
13:48 sekjal      hi, jcamins!
13:48 * owen      doesn't know who "etc" entails exactly
13:48 jcamins     Hi owen, sekjal, and kf
13:48 sekjal      and good morning, #koha
13:48 sekjal      morning, owen
13:48 kf          hi owen
13:48 owen        Hi sekjal, #koha, etc.
13:44 kf          gmcharlt++ :)
13:43 kf          thx gmcharlt
13:19 druthb      my little Eee is dandy for checking email, surfing the web, Skype and such, but I wouldn't try to do any serious dev work on it.   I'd like to buy me a much better lappy, just haven't yet.
13:16 druthb      There are plenty for about $250 bucks that have 1 GB RAM and the Atom N450 processor; that'd work, too.
13:15 druthb      (And Easy Peasy's latest release is a pleasure to use, too, and easy to install.)
13:15 jcamins     druthb: that's not a netbook! That's a laptop replacement!
13:15 druthb      If you got a netbook with at least a gig, and more disk space, it should be fine, though it might be a little bit slow.  The ones I'm seeing around right now with 160GB drives and 2GB of RAM would be fine.
13:15 magnus      jcamins: shouldn't be too hard as long as you don't need "online resources", like doing a z39.50 search?
13:14 jcamins     Apparently that's such a horrifying thought I scared away jwagner?
13:12 * jcamins   is thinking about how to test new Koha features during "downtime" on the train, etc.
13:05 druthb      A more up-to-date netbook would have no particular trouble, I don't imagine, running any of the Debian-derived OSes for netbooks.  I had to mount a 2 GB SD card to have enough disk space; those things are creepy-slow, which did not help.
13:04 druthb      The installation went normally for a Debian install-on-a-new-box, no trouble at all.
13:04 jcamins     Heh. I think I probably won't be trying it, then.
13:03 druthb      It was running a very early release of Easy Peasy, which is Ubuntu on an extreme diet.
13:02 druthb      I wouldn't call it running, precisely...walking, very slowly, perhaps.  The netbook in question is an Asus EEE 900A, with (at that time) half-a-gig of RAM, and a 4 GB SSHD.  Not a lot of elbow room.
13:01 jcamins     How did it work?
13:01 druthb      That would be me, yes.
13:01 jcamins     druthb: do I recall correctly that jwagner said you got Koha running on a netbook?
13:01 druthb      good morning, jcamins. :)
12:57 jcamins     Good morning, #koha
12:54 druthb      hi, kf! :)
12:54 kf          hi druthb :)
12:52 druthb      hi, magnus!
12:52 magnus      hi druthb
12:21 nengard     morning kf and thd
12:20 thd         Hello kf
12:19 kf          hi nengard :)
12:19 kf          hi thd :)
12:19 thd         Good morning nengard
09:45 kf          koha is not so interesting for most of them ;)
09:45 kf          slef: no, will show photos of the road trip probably
09:44 slef        hrmph. now I'm back in the uk, the cell drops ssh connections when moving from 3g to 2g :-/
09:43 slef        kf: cool. any tips?
09:39 kf          slef: my turn is on tuesday :)
09:38 * slef      rereads nengard's blog posts
09:38 * slef      off to present koha and kohacon10
09:38 slef        hi hdl kf
09:18 kf          hi slef *waves*
09:14 hdl         Hi slef
09:14 hdl         how are you ?
09:14 hdl         hi miguelxer
09:09 slef        bbl
09:09 slef        oops... didn't think anyone would still be using our redirect
09:02 magnus      hi hdl
09:02 hdl         hi magnus
08:57 munin       New commit(s) kohagit: bug 5380: remove copy-and-paste from authorities/detail.pl <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=2c794d1af77879134ab0e84198d3827625384e70>
08:42 ivanc       hi magnus
08:31 magnus      hiya ivanc
08:31 ivanc       hi #koha
08:29 paul_p      tiens un belge. 'morning saorge_ !
08:29 magnus      bon jour paul_p
08:28 paul_p      hello magnus
08:26 magnus      god morgen, kf :-)
08:26 kf          guten morgen magnus :)
08:17 kf          hi paul
08:13 paul_p      kf, 'morning germany
08:11 kf          hi #koha
08:02 paul_p      evening chris
08:02 chris       hi paul_p
07:58 paul_p      good morning everybody
07:17 cait        bye #koha
06:43 munin       New commit(s) kohagit: bug 5372: identify empty field in authority record correctly <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=daabd936d6cb13bd680652da5a32fd1ce354684a>
06:40 cait        still have the notices thigns to test
06:40 chris       im doing some testing now
06:40 chris       is ready for some secondary testing if you get bored :)
06:40 chris       http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/new/biblibre_reports
06:38 cait        :)
06:36 chris       yay!
06:26 cait        and now it works :) yay!
06:25 munin       04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=5003 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, katrin.fischer, NEW, Can not search for organisation by name
06:25 cait        rebasing my patch for bug 5003 :)
06:24 chris       heh
06:24 cait        can't work
06:24 cait        hm stupid me.. testing my patch with German templates...
06:16 kmkale      hi chris
06:13 cait        hi chris
06:12 chris       evening
05:41 cait        hi kmkale
05:41 kmkale      morning cait
05:41 cait        good morning #koha
05:41 cait        gmcharlt++
05:30 kmkale      ronald: standar mysql dump on suse and restore on ubuntu?
05:26 ronald      can anyone point me to some tips on how i can move my koha 2.29 database from open suse to my new ubuntu server?
04:54 hdl         will try to sleep a little more
04:47 hdl         I am quite tired by jet lag...
04:46 kmkale      hi hdl
04:46 hdl         hi kmkale
04:45 hdl         wasabi:  just good whatever. night evening, morning.
04:45 hdl         hi wasabi nothing special.
04:41 kmkale      HI ALL
04:17 wasabi      whatsup?
04:17 wasabi      heya hdl
04:07 hdl         anyone there ?
04:07 hdl         hi
03:01 brendan_l   night jcamins_a
03:00 jcamins     Good night, #koha
03:00 * jcamins   is going to get some sleep too
02:50 jcamins     Cool, I didn't know we had RFC documentation.
02:44 chris       night
02:44 wizzyrea_   later chris_n
02:43 chris_n     g'night
02:43 * chris_n   heads off to sleep too
02:42 Brooke      I'm officially punchy
02:42 * chris_n   is learning about char limits on irc topic lines
02:41 Brooke      k
02:41 chris       heh
02:41 chris_n     :-)
02:41 chris_n     and once more for good measure
02:41 Brooke      ah spam! Baninate! ;)
02:37 reva        ok jcamins.I am at home, and have limited bandwidth. So wanted to capitalize on the mibbit chat here to bookmark.
02:31 jcamins     If you Google "Ubuntu support," that'll get you to it also.
02:31 Brooke      http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/chat
02:30 reva        wizzyrea, I lost the link you gave for the chat channel when I went off chat for a bit there; could you give me the link again? Thanks in advance.
02:28 reva        I am reading the results.Will be back tomorrow morning after trying. Thanks all for the helpful hints.
02:27 chris       :)
02:26 reva        The things they think of.
02:26 reva        ok, thanks. I love it. I can send it to my counterpart when I have returned to the US.
02:25 chris       http://lmgtfy.com/
02:24 reva        oops lost you for a sec there. That was a cool link, it types in the searches by itself, what is that, chris?
02:22 jcamins     chris++
02:22 chris       http://tinyurl.com/2bbo6qt
02:22 jcamins     reva: I meant, you can try that search, and see if someo of the suggestions help.
02:21 reva        Ok jcamins, I am all ears.:)
02:21 reva        The solution I followed before and did not succeed this time is the October 16 entry on this page: http://mizstik.com/projects/koha-livecd/comment-page-3/#comments. Was hoping may be there may be an Ubuntu expert here. Thanks for all the help.
02:21 jcamins     reva: I just Googled "network troubleshooting ubuntu," and it brought up some results.
02:18 reva        ok, I will try the link wizzyrea. Thanks.
02:18 wizzyrea_   i'd take it up with the ubuntu folks
02:17 reva        Ok, I followed the solution I found and shared it with the Live CD developer for 3.0.6 running on Ubuntu 10.04. But that is not solving the issue with 10.10.
02:16 reva        The 3.2 Live CD had no problem when I tested it on VirtualBox; only when I installed it in the hard disk partition. wizzyrea.
02:16 wizzyrea_   their channels are all on freenode
02:16 wizzyrea_   http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/chat
02:15 wizzyrea_   and you need to assign a static
02:15 reva        Is there a chat channel for them you recommend, jcamins?
02:15 wizzyrea_   i'm guessing you have the same problem that you had before
02:15 jcamins     I would encourage you to try troubleshooting this on Ubuntu fora.
02:15 reva        Sorry, that was supposed to be Brooke.
02:15 jcamins     reva: this is not a Koha issue.
02:14 reva        Hi Brook. Are you new here in Koha-community chat?
02:14 reva        hi good evening anyone awake. I have installed Koha 3.2 Live CD.It is running on Ubuntu 10.10; I am not able to connect to the internet. Localhost is fine. Any networking experts have solutions? Had similar issues running 3.0.6 through Live CD on Ubuntu10.04. Solved using static address in network configuration.
02:11 Brooke      hi reva
02:11 Brooke      but I've to find a chocolatier
02:11 chris       http://galencharlton.com/blog/?p=69
02:11 wizzyrea_   what is the lofty goal?
02:11 Brooke      yeah he needs chocolate
02:10 chris       gmcharlt++
02:10 wizzyrea_   lol
02:10 Brooke      however, like a well trained monkey with a typewriter, I can be lucid in certain formats.
02:10 wizzyrea_   relax, we understand joo
02:09 Brooke      trying to comprehend me is hopeless
02:09 * jcamins_a considers trying to comprehend the scrollback, then concludes it's hopeless.
02:09 chris       send patches early and often
02:09 chris       and add
02:09 chris       yes
02:09 * chris_n   thinks his 3 point RFC workflow outline sums it up
02:09 wizzyrea_   that depends on what the lofty goal is you're trying to achieve I think
02:09 chris       if ppl think its a good idea, they'll follow it, if not ... ah well, you tried :)
02:08 chris       ie, just do it
02:08 chris       planning is fine, talking about planning im bored of
02:08 Brooke      (though I could have said 5 years to construct the plan, but that would be mean.)
02:08 wizzyrea_   english...failing... there's a word that i'm thinking of that isn't coming out of my brain
02:08 Brooke      hai
02:08 wizzyrea_   5 years for the duration of the plan?
02:07 Brooke      5 years seem like a logical time frame for planning? Or should I tighten that up given our breakneck release pace? (Though that would increase the number of chairs tossed my way at the suggestion of planning.)
02:02 wizzyrea_   though it doesn't say why
02:02 wizzyrea_   http://koha-community.org/about/enhancing-koha/
02:00 chris       :-)
02:00 * Brooke    can feel a long range plan a comin'
01:59 Brooke      it'll be done by Friday
01:59 Brooke      so unless 80 bajillion people get back to me on thursday night
01:59 Brooke      on the sunny side, I compiled the word data into a preliminary tag cloud
01:57 Brooke      http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Roadmap_to_3.4
01:56 wizzyrea_   even if only to the RFC category >.>
01:56 wizzyrea_   that's good feedback actually, there should be a spot for RFC's on there, and I'll add a link.
01:56 * wizzyrea_ catches up on the list
01:55 wizzyrea_   oh... i see
01:55 chris       heh
01:55 Brooke      there's no OR operator in there
01:54 Brooke      division of labour means I can document about documenting documentation while you work on shtuff
01:54 wizzyrea_   well if there is something you would like to do to the site, i'm happy to help >.>
01:54 wizzyrea_   lol
01:54 chris       whoops did i say that out loud
01:54 Brooke      I think I caught a bad case of snark from Chris
01:53 Brooke      damn it
01:53 chris       because thats far more productive than just doing shit
01:53 * wizzyrea_ likes blowing things up
01:53 chris       im documenting how to document documenting documents about documenting
01:53 Brooke      I are meeting in sekrut
01:53 Brooke      shhhhh
01:53 wizzyrea_   what are we blowing up?
01:53 chris       heh
01:52 * Brooke    is concentrating on messing up the wiki THEN blowing up the site
01:52 chris       yup
01:52 Brooke      and some of it is on the site
01:52 Brooke      I just think it requires better linking
01:52 Brooke      not sure it requires another page. I'll have to reread it when I'm more alert
01:51 chris       :)
01:51 chris       apparently i have to talk about talking about talking about rfc
01:51 chris       im not allowed to
01:50 Brooke      don't make me tell you to get back in your cube and develop! *duck*
01:50 * chris     is snarky today
01:49 chris       you gonna make a wiki page with what lori took the time to write an email about, instead of taking the time to make the page ? :-)
01:33 Brooke      I'm used to cryptic, yet strangely forgiving drupal
01:33 chris       heh
01:32 Brooke      now I have to be careful
01:32 Brooke      pffft
01:32 chris       like categories etc
01:32 chris       you cant move special pages
01:31 Brooke      apparently it depends on what I view
01:31 Brooke      hmm
01:31 chris       and are you logged in?
01:31 chris       what page you looking at
01:31 Brooke      no tab for me!
01:31 chris       goes page discussion edit history move watch
01:30 Brooke      :/
01:30 chris       next to history
01:30 chris       along the top
01:29 Brooke      where's the move/rename tab on the wiki?
01:29 chris       wb Brooke
01:28 Brooke      howdy