Time  Nick       Message
22:38 chris_n    yeah, the pipes fill up quick
22:38 chris      i always have an urge to check the traffic graphs whenever any news breaks
22:37 * chris    goes to check stuff.co.nz
22:37 chris      ack
22:37 chris_n    wow... http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/us2010utc5.php
22:22 chris      i think they are going for the ideal of open source, not free software maybe :)
22:21 rhcl2      I should have put quotes around the above
22:20 rhcl2      so which is it?
22:20 rhcl2      The ideal of open source drives Public IP.
22:20 rhcl2      Public IP's software is mostly open source. It's been built using 100% open source (commercial licensing has been purchased for some of the source code to avoid re-releasing modified code as specified in the GPL).
22:19 jdavidb    :)
22:19 chris      jdavidb: it was tongue in cheek :-)
22:19 larsw      "open source programmers don't do it for the money, we do it to express ourselves" -- that's delusional
22:19 chris      jdavidb: :-)
22:17 rhcl2      I must be too tired, but whatever (s)he's trying to say confustes me
22:16 rhcl2      does anybody understand this?  http://www.publicip.net/open_source.php
22:08 * jdavidb  notes chris's nomination of 18:15 server time, and declines; he prefers to be still working, over abrupt unemployment.
20:52 wizzyrea   hehe
20:51 Jo         and I'm a nervous wreck .... just breathing. Anyone who kidnapped my boys wouldn't keep them for long :)
20:50 Jo         the boys got invited to stay on a dairty farm for a week and its been a blind panic arranging gumboots and raincoats and booking buses etc .. anyway they are now safely off on their first unaccompanied bus trip to the middle of nowhere
20:49 Jo         sorry about that folks.
20:49 Jo         Hi Galen
20:49 gmcharlt   hi Jo
20:49 Jo         just read the logs of the meeting.
20:49 Jo         hiya
20:49 Jo         hita Chris.
20:43 chris      back
20:31 Jo         hiya
20:31 richard    hi
20:15 cait       good night #koha
20:14 owen       Bye all
19:57 wizzyrea   just what I needed
19:57 wizzyrea   ty for the feedpress suggestion
19:57 slef       ok, bye all
19:55 slef       now in kitchen... no web here... will look in 70mins or so
19:55 sekjal     thanks, wizzyrea.  looks good to me.
19:55 wizzyrea   these are the first 3 I have added.
19:54 wizzyrea   http://koha-community.org/category/koha-news/press-releases/
19:53 chris      ok bus time
19:53 chris      cool
19:53 slef       will resend
19:52 slef       I've sent pull requests.
19:52 chris      slef: hdl_laptop is your man then
19:52 slef       smallbugs is for 3.0.x
19:52 chris      owen: if you send me an email (i use my inbox as my todo list) ill look into it on my lunch
19:51 gmcharlt   slef: working on clearing out backlog - there will be pushes tomorrow
19:51 chris      owen: yes, at least i think thats what i am remembering
19:51 chris      (or if its 3.0.x its still hdl .. same thing applies)
19:50 chris      slef: gmcharlt is still the release manager for master, so send koha-patches@lists.koha.org a request to pull
19:50 owen       chris:  The routine for generating the sortable version?
19:50 chris      but i do know that the sort routine doesn't fully work
19:50 slef       how well are patches getting into koha mainline at the moment?  I think I have ones on gitorious koha smallbugs branch waiting.
19:49 chris      owen: could well be
19:49 owen       chris: My initial assumption was that the shorter format call numbers were older data before the sortable version was developed
19:49 chris      Colin: shows how much attention i was paying, i got distracted by the puppets in the background :)
19:49 Colin      yes 6th of may
19:49 chris      owen: it pads it to make it sortable
19:49 slef       chris: I thought 6th May but I've not seen the news today.  Been busy working.
19:49 chris      yes
19:49 owen       Is Koha generating that long version of the call number?
19:48 chris      ill find it
19:48 chris      i did a patch for someone at waldo, it got thrown in the bin i think
19:48 chris      but yeah, its broken
19:48 chris      its supposed to be a sortable version of the callnumber
19:48 owen       Example one: 204_420000000000000_JA Example two: 205.677 My
19:47 chris      yeah i did know that
19:47 chris      ahhh
19:47 * chris    has 10 mins before the bus
19:47 owen       Anyone know about where items.cn_sort comes from? I've got a couple of variations on the kind of data there
19:47 chris      owen: i think ts finished
19:47 chris      ah yeah, saw that on the news, may 4th election?
19:47 owen       Is the meeting still on or can I ask a Koha question?
19:46 slef       oh well, parliament.uk is being dissolved soon, so maybe I can raise it in the campaigns
19:46 chris      i suspect we will just be bullied, like anyone not the US or EU
19:46 chris      nz are pushing for openness .. but we are small fry
19:45 chris      slef: next round of acta negotiations are here
19:43 chris      thd: acta will fix that too
19:43 slef       chris: *sigh* when I'm done with the Digital Economy (destruction) Bill, I'll take a look at ACTA :-(
19:42 slef       thd: however, software.coop hold pre-existing rights which I understand should protect us, and also invalidate the CTM registration attempt (aka the EU one) if we don't agree to it.
19:42 thd        slef: I think that trademarks are still only a civil matter in the US.
19:41 * chris    be's pessimistic
19:41 chris      WIPO is being relegated
19:41 chris      acta will fix all that
19:40 slef       thd: it should be similar in most WIPO nations, as I understand it.
19:40 slef       chris: will do.
19:40 slef       back
19:38 chris      afaik we are still waiting on bureaucrats for the transfer, once its done im sure terms that are foss friendly can be worked out
19:36 chris      slef: want to send me an email with what it would entail and ill raise it
19:35 thd        chris: slef is not concerned about what would happen to him in NZ :)
19:35 chris      but for the EU one, im sure the subcomittee could deal with that
19:35 thd        As I understand the issue which slef may be raising, using a mark in business without evident permission is a criminal offence in the UK.
19:35 chris      slef: its pretty much impossible to trademark koha in nz
19:33 slef       bbi10ish
19:33 slef       We asked if HLT would offer FOSS-friendly trademark terms which would allow us to enter some sort of agreement and we are waiting for reply since 10 February.
19:31 * chris_n  goes out to dispatch a covey of pigeons
19:31 slef       thd: I don't remember our current situation.  Let me look it up.
19:29 wizzyrea   I'm going out looking for them but if I miss you, send me the urls, please.
19:28 wizzyrea   oh, which also means: if you have a news feed URL, send it to me, please. PM's/Email/carrier pigeon, all work.
19:28 thd        are there not other parties aside from PTFS/LibLime who may have yet to be asked about community related assets?
19:27 chris      that'd work
19:27 slef       maybe just add a quick report on the subcommittee to the generals?
19:26 chris      the general meeting can catch pretty much everythng we want to discuss
19:26 wizzyrea   whenever you're ready slef ;)
19:26 chris      re the meeting, i think we should leave the next one unscheduled, and call one if/when we need it
19:26 slef       wizzyrea: Thanks for your work.  I'm horribly intermittent today, but I should talk to you about what we can do most helpfully.
19:25 sekjal     thank you, wizzyrea!
19:25 gmcharlt   wizzyrea++
19:25 wizzyrea   ty for your time
19:25 chris      i mean thats what its for, syndication :)
19:25 wizzyrea   alright, I shall make it so then.
19:24 chris      yeah, aggregate rss feeds seems like a much better plan
19:24 wizzyrea   :)
19:24 wizzyrea   slef++
19:24 slef       That's one of them :)
19:24 wizzyrea   looking for solutions there
19:24 wizzyrea   oh, and I am still working on the directory
19:24 slef       Basically, every hour we spend reposting news releases is an hour not spent on developing cool features for our users or supporting k-c.  I already have things I want to add to k-c when I get comfortable with it.
19:23 wizzyrea   and rather than copy/paste, this seems like a fairer solution
19:23 wizzyrea   they *are* posting them on their own sites though
19:23 thd        wizzyrea: I am all for anything that gives even the appearance of more fairness
19:23 wizzyrea   (more likely the 3rd)
19:23 wizzyrea   (busy-ness)
19:22 wizzyrea   (laziness, poutiness, you name it)
19:22 wizzyrea   but they are not posting them on k-c.org
19:22 wizzyrea   I know the others have had releases
19:22 wizzyrea   the reason I want to change it is that we currently really only have one support company posting things
19:22 slef       thd: the IRC client I use.
19:22 thd        slef: ERC?
19:21 thd        slef: ERC
19:21 wizzyrea   well, tell you what, if you give me a lil time here, I will have an example and you can *see* what I"m talking about :)
19:21 wizzyrea   Aha :)
19:20 thd        wizzyrea: thanks, I was merely confused about how the difference would actually appear
19:20 * slef     glares at ERC
19:20 chris      i like that much better than them being posts there
19:20 wizzyrea   and outputting it on our site
19:20 wizzyrea   I"m just collecting it
19:20 wizzyrea   I think the latter, I'm depending on the companies to provide the news
19:19 chris      wizzyrea: works for me
19:19 gmcharlt   I would a imagine that each company would provide a relevant RSS feed or feeds to be included in the aggregator at wizzyrea's discretion?
19:19 thd        wizzyrea: multiple companies would aggregate feeds together or each company would aggregate its feed separately?
19:18 slef       wizzyrea: feedwordpress worksforme
19:17 wizzyrea   thd: noted.
19:17 thd        wizzyrea: Use them if they work for you but yahoo pipes are non-free.
19:16 wizzyrea   RSS feeds of press releases, through yahoo pipes.
19:16 thd        wizzyrea: What would be aggregated and in what manner?
19:15 gmcharlt   wizzyrea: +1
19:15 wizzyrea   1. less work for you and me and 2. more fair
19:15 wizzyrea   I would like to change it from a "post on our site" to an aggregate of all of your individual news feeds
19:15 wizzyrea   oh, one thing I would like to talk about very briefly: I am planning on changing how the support company news is displayed on k-c.org
19:14 gmcharlt   owen: possibly not, except as a vehicle for dealings of the Koha Committee of the HLT
19:14 thd        are there not other parties and is there not other business?
19:13 owen       Given the impasse we're at now, is there a point in holding regular handover meetings?
19:11 chris      back_room_deals--
19:11 chris      openly++
19:10 gmcharlt   if/when PTFS is ready to to discuss koha.org openly
19:10 collum     Garry Collum, KCPL
19:10 gmcharlt   so on to suggestions for unresolved negotiations - as chris says, we're here
19:10 chris_n    <= Chris Nighswonger, FBC
19:09 chris      yup :)
19:09 chris      which pretty much is the same answer for the 2nd point too
19:09 gmcharlt   and Jo answered the second point, I believe - no change re status of negotiations
19:05 chris      the subcommittee decided not to meet yet, as there is no pressing business
19:05 * Ropuch   = Piotr Wejman, Biblioteka CSNE
19:05 chris      i can take the first one
19:04 gmcharlt   - Agree time of next meeting.
19:04 gmcharlt   - Next issues if negotiations have concluded.
19:04 gmcharlt   - Possible suggestions on unresolved negotiations.
19:04 gmcharlt   - Report on status of negotiations over assignment of trademarks and domains.
19:04 gmcharlt   - Report on Subcommittee
19:04 gmcharlt   - Welcomes and introductions.
19:04 gmcharlt   so agenda is
19:02 sekjal     Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions
19:01 slef       MJ Ray, member of software.coop
19:01 Sharon     Sharon Moreland, NEKLS
19:01 owen       Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library
19:01 thd        Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
19:01 * wizzyrea = Liz Rea, NEKLS
19:01 Colin      Colin Campbell PTFS-Europe
19:01 chris      Chris Cormack, Catalyst
19:01 * gmcharlt = Galen Charlton, ESI
19:01 gmcharlt   let's do roll call
19:00 thd        wizzyrea++
19:00 chris      Jo sends her apologies
19:00 gmcharlt   wizzyrea++
19:00 wizzyrea   (that I know of)
19:00 wizzyrea   like *every* other koha support company.
19:00 wizzyrea   I want them to behave like any other koha support company
18:59 wizzyrea   you know, all I really want from ptfs is coopetition in the community.
18:59 gmcharlt   http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:events:meetings:irc_meetings:meetingnotes10apr06
18:59 gmcharlt   greetings folks - it's 19:00 UTC+0, time for the community handover IRC meeting
18:59 thd        chris: The answer to that question may ultimately be no, but there are real advantages short of that.
18:58 chris      since thats all we actually want
18:58 chris      thd: hence why i say, lets not bother
18:58 Colin      hi all
18:57 thd        chris: I think that being too insistent about the domain at this time is only likely to obtain silence.
18:57 chris      evening Colin
18:57 chris      yeah ive heard as much
18:57 chris      the domain name?
18:56 thd        chris: We both know that they are not prepared to consider what the community wants most at this time.
18:56 chris      in the meantime, lets fix some bugs instead
18:56 chris      they just need to decide what they want
18:55 chris      thd: i feel sure they know what the community wants
18:55 thd        chris: Perhaps they need both a formal and informal approach.
18:54 thd        chris: I have an advantage of proximity but I will not ask them anything directly on behalf of the community because I do not want to be treated in a formal way.
18:53 chris      no, the emails being ignored isnt new
18:52 thd        chris: It is officially and actually a new thing despite months of planning.
18:52 chris      like i say, im not going to tell you what to do, but im not expending energy on it
18:52 chris      thd: its not a new thing, its months
18:51 thd        chris: I have had the experience answering the telephone in a retail shop after some significant publicity where I had not time to do anything but answer the telephone for a few days.
18:48 chris      thd: so far all Jo and I have received is silence ... so feel free to continue yourself, but I'm not going to waste my time
18:48 thd        fredericd: the way in which the mandatory flag functions for the record editor is problematical.
18:47 thd        fredericd: sorry for neglecting your question.  (I have not been communicating much with others recently.)
18:45 thd        chris: I know of some specific small things which I suspect that they would be willing to discuss now.
18:45 DRUlm      Well, good luck.
18:44 chris      thd: when they decide that, we'll be right here
18:44 DRUlm      Nutty.
18:44 chris      DRUlm: better lawyers than I have tried that line ... it doesnt work hence the AGPL
18:44 DRUlm      Hosted, yes, but *much* of the code runs un-hosted on the browsers
18:43 thd        chris: I think that we do not need PTFS or LibLime but we would be better off with some cooperation from them that they would be willing to provide.
18:43 DRUlm      While the code is running remote on their servers, legally, parts of the code (like the HTML and JAvascript) run locally at a library, so I am not sure if the licence still applies since ALL the code is not running remote, much of it (and in this case, *any*) is running off their servers on the web-browser clients, so one would think by the licence even as it stands, it needs to be released
18:42 chris      they are only providing it as software as a service
18:42 sekjal     LLEK is hosted-only, which gets around the GPL's requirement to release
18:42 chris      it is all licensed under the same license, but they are not distributing it
18:42 thd        chris: They announced at ALA midwinter that they would not be making any changes affecting the LLEK business model for at least three months after acquisition.
18:41 DRUlm      Isn't it based on the orginal Koha open source code? How can it not be released?
18:41 chris      DRUlm: you are joking right? :)
18:41 chris      so i say, lets just move on, and they'll do what they do, there are so many other things we could/should be talkng about instead
18:41 DRUlm      So has there been a LLEK tarball yet?
18:40 DRUlm      Oh, well. I guess there are decisions being made.
18:40 chris      since many many overtures have been made
18:40 thd        DRUlm: They are not that big.
18:40 chris      and there is only wilful ignorance available as an excuse at this point
18:39 thd        chris: I am willing to take what me be available.
18:39 DRUlm      It could take them years if a company has some large wing of decision makers. Who knows.
18:39 thd        chris: I also agree
18:39 thd        chris: Yet there is still much to be gained short of what we would like.
18:39 chris      thd: im unconvinced we need them, they need the community, not the other way round
18:38 thd        chris: I think that you are right.
18:38 thd        chris: If we are willing to accept for the moment what they may be willing to do shortly I think that we can have real progress even if we do not get what we would like.
18:38 DRUlm      Decision making in business can be 90% of the overhead and tech 10% - depends how a company runs.
18:38 chris      the truth is there is no desire, not that its hard
18:38 DRUlm      Yes, this is true.
18:37 chris      its already all licenses under the GPL, it has to be
18:37 DRUlm      Also, has there been a TarBall produced for LLEK yet, is there not supposed to be a release at least occasionally?
18:37 chris      to make a public repo
18:37 chris      DRUlm: it would take about 30 mins
18:37 DRUlm      I think if they open the code up, it will take 2-3 months to do so, however, the longer the wait, the more differences, sooner would make more sense from an open source standpoint
18:37 chris      probably so, hence lets just not worry about it, and do stuff that is actually useful
18:36 thd        chris: I suspect that they are not likely to make such a change without considering it for a few months after addressing other issues first.
18:36 DRUlm      Oh wait, C.I.L. has not started yet, next week
18:35 DRUlm      nengard, Arlington - yeah, west DC is better.
18:35 chris      and that stops a 2 line dns change?
18:34 chris      its not like they had it sprung on them
18:34 thd        chris: They do not have enough people to meet the demands of LibLime customers yet.
18:34 chris      you dont wake up and buy a company
18:34 chris      i call BS on that too
18:33 thd        chris: I would not expect big changes because understand that they are overwhelmed.
18:32 chris      well that's your call, so far emails from jo and i have been ignored, im not going to waste my time, there are many more things id rather use it on
18:31 thd        chris: If I had taken the ignore them until they are ready approach, then they would not have been participating in the community the way they had last year.
18:31 chris      cya later
18:31 nengard    talk to you all later
18:30 nengard    heading to the city to do a presentation now ... kind of wish i didn't have to go
18:30 owen       I note also that no one got any on-list response from the person who posted the announcement to the Koha list
18:30 nengard    chris++
18:30 chris      theres bugs to fix, and releases to be made, lets worry about that
18:29 chris      i vote we just ignore the whole sideshow and when/if ptfs decide they want to interact with the project we'll still be here
18:28 thd        chris: My information is that the best way is to persuade the individuals
18:28 chris      thd: im actually past caring
18:28 thd        chris: the question is what is the best way to effect a change towards the change we want.
18:27 chris      thats what the current tally is
18:27 chris      and releasing freeware
18:27 chris      no action on koha.org
18:27 chris      so far
18:27 chris      i dont know if thats true or not, all we can do is look at the results and the actions or inactions of them
18:27 thd        chris: I am not trying to defend PTFS here
18:27 thd        chris: I agree that they own the decision
18:27 chris      its how they told you they work
18:26 thd        chris: I think that it is relevant to how PTFS sometimes works as a company.
18:26 chris      ptfs/liblime released it, ptfs/liblme own the decision not to release it as free software
18:26 chris      right, im sayng its not relevant
18:25 thd        chris: I am giving information which I know from a year ago
18:25 nengard    :)
18:25 chris      well it should, if thats the truth of the matter
18:25 thd        chris: it would never say that
18:25 chris      it says contact liblime
18:24 chris      it doesnt say "persuade our employee for us since we can't"
18:24 chris      Liblime released the MARC Utilities editor in the hopes that this library freeware tool will make MARC data conversion easier for library staff and ILS database administrators.  Liblime invites all users to let us know if you have any comments or suggestions on enhancing or adding more functionality to MARC Utilities.
18:24 thd        chris: his name is not in the title of course
18:24 thd        chris: I would suggest that we start a conversation with Rashid personally in very positive terms.
18:24 chris      Liblime, a division of PTFS, has released its MARC Utilities – Metadata Converter, for the manipulation and editing of MARC records in batch mode.
18:23 owen       It's a sign of how far we've come that the term "freeware" struck me as quaint
18:23 thd        chris: I note that Rashid's name is prominent in the press release
18:22 chris      yup, the freeware release had ptfs/liblime's name all over it, not rashid
18:21 gmcharlt   one of the beauties and flaws of a command-and-control company is that although an owner can and ought to accept input from the staff, ultimately the owner can just say that something has to get done already; conversely, the owner is always thereby responsible for the actions of the company
18:20 thd        gmcharlt: I think that it may be less of a sideshow than would be evident
18:19 DRUlm      we'll or just business. it is what it is
18:19 slef       now really bbl
18:19 chris      gmcharlt++
18:19 DRUlm      gmch: agreed
18:19 slef       Combined with NDAs, it's a whole bundle of subterfuge.
18:18 slef       there is another possible problem: instruct the programmers that they must oppose, but tell the world that licensing is responsibility of the programmers.  Not that I'm saying it happened here, but I've seen that sort of thing.
18:18 gmcharlt   thd: the record editor is a sideline (or side show?) in any event
18:18 thd        chris: I think that this case about the record editor is different.
18:17 chris      and shenanigans
18:17 chris      i call BS
18:17 chris      so its convient in this case
18:17 chris      exactly
18:17 thd        chris: I think that the only problem is that programmer choice would not be decisive if a contract or policy prevents code release.
18:17 DRUlm      There are good reasons to do so
18:16 DRUlm      Ha
18:16 thd        owen: Persuade the programmers individually and we will all be in a better situation.
18:16 slef       bbl (DST caught me out, again)
18:16 chris      lets see how that goes
18:15 chris      i vote jdavidb insists LLEK is open source now
18:15 thd        owen: That is a good way of looking at it.
18:15 thd        owen: exactly
18:15 thd        owen: They might be now with the acquisition of LibLime but there position had been very different a year ago.
18:14 owen       Here's a way to think of it the other way round: what if a programmer was being paid to create software for a client and insisted that it be released as open source?
18:14 thd        slef: I have the same problem, so I am sympathetic
18:13 thd        slef: the problem here is persuading one individual to give up clinging too tightly to his own standard of perfection
18:13 owen       I worry that PTFS could be using that as an out
18:13 DRUlm      Cool
18:13 thd        owen: the impression I had was that PTFS respected the views of their programmers
18:12 slef       In my experience, such setups don't work in favour of worker or software freedom, but I don't know what goes on in this particular case.
18:12 thd        owen: I actually had a quite favourable impression of PTFS over this
18:12 thd        owen: individual choices, such that if individuals are well motivated towards free software then that would be great
18:11 thd        owen: think of PTFS deferring to some extent to the choices of their employees
18:10 thd        owen: think of it the other way round
18:08 * owen     wonders what other restrictions PTFS programmers are allowed to place on how their work is used
18:07 thd        I am told that the message was passed on to Rashid
18:07 gmcharlt   DRUlm: there may be discussion of Kaitiaki, but I don't know if anybody has anything specific to say regarding that position
18:06 thd        owen: I sent a message to PTFS for Rashid giving good arguments for releasing the code last summer
18:06 DRUlm      Thanks, been up since 5am, starting to fade
18:06 gmcharlt   DRUlm: main issue as Jo mentioned in her post earlier today is no progress on domains and trademark xfrs since last meeting
18:05 thd        owen: The impression which I took is that PTFS has respect for the preference of programmers
18:05 thd        owen: PTFS could have released the code a year ago
18:05 gmcharlt   DRUlm: not much, I suspect - I'm not aware of any issues to vote on
18:04 thd        owen: That is not the point
18:04 owen       As an employee of PTFS doesn't PTFS hold the copyright to his work?
18:04 DRUlm      gmcharlt, what will go down at this meeting, voting?
18:04 thd        owen: I think that he is quite friendly but personally too much of a perfectionist too be very willing to release his code
18:03 thd        owen: he is, I met him during the SLA conference
18:03 gmcharlt   i.e., community handover meeting is 56 minutes from now
18:03 gmcharlt   slef: yep, looks that way
18:02 owen       This Rashid is not an employee of PTFS?
18:02 slef       I think it should be date -d @1270580400 - anyone agree?
18:02 thd        Asking PTFS is not the best approach in this case.
18:02 DRUlm      I do?
18:01 thd        DRUlm: You have to persuade Rashid personally.
18:01 slef       date -d @1267556400 is not Tuesday, 6 April 2010 at 19:00 UTC+0 (spotted on http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:events:meetings:irc_meetings:meetingnotes10apr06 )
18:01 thd        owen: John Yokley told me that he would not order him to release the code.
18:00 DRUlm      Well, I agree, release the code!
18:00 thd        owen: John Yokley tried to persuade the programmer Rashid to release the code last spring.
17:59 thd        fredericd: I will come back to your problem quickly
17:59 slef       evening
17:59 DRUlm      Not really thinking about politics, just thinking about the software
17:58 owen       thd: Can you elaborate?
17:58 thd        DRUlm: Lack of being built into Koha is part of the reason the programmer had given for not releasing the code last year.
17:57 DRUlm      No I just mean built into koha
17:57 thd        fredericd: It could be used as an editor.
17:56 fredericd  thd: It's not an editor.
17:56 thd        RRUlm: PTFS has released a currently non-free raw editor.
17:55 fredericd  I agree. In the meantime...
17:55 DRUlm      would solve many problems
17:55 DRUlm      Or a simple raw editor included as an option
17:55 DRUlm      Seems that way to a point
17:55 thd        fredericd: Record editing needs a complete rewrite.
17:54 thd        The rules about hidden and mandatory are very blunt and not allow subtle conditions.
17:52 fredericd  no
17:52 thd        fredericd: is the hidden subfield intended to be mandatory?
17:51 fredericd  thd: I don't understand...
17:51 thd        fredericd: would you have hidden mandatory subfields auto-filled?
17:51 fredericd  head version
17:50 DRUlm      Really? I have not found that, what version?
17:50 DRUlm      Mandatory fields. Hmmm. Well, you need to setup the normal fields you use and then allow other ones that you might need as hidden.
17:50 fredericd  All subfields of a mandatory fiels are visible, even if they are supposed to be hidden
17:49 fredericd  hidden subfields are not hidden
17:49 fredericd  thd: hello, how are you?
17:49 thd        fredericd: what issue are you having?
17:45 fredericd  Does anyone has any issue with the way biblio data entry form handles mandatory fields and hidden subfields?
17:42 munin      chris_n: The current temperature in Dunn, North Carolina is 31.7�C (1:43 PM EDT on April 06, 2010). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 8%. Dew Point: -7.0�C. Pressure: 29.62 in 1002.9 hPa (Falling).
17:42 chris_n    @wunder 28334
17:18 DRUlm      Glad to have the work mind you!
17:18 DRUlm      Yes, it *is* 80 degress and like summer here - but I am replacing the firewall :)
17:07 indradg    chris, ping
16:23 kf         ok, more koha tomorrow - bye all :)
16:15 paul_p     chris_n, if you want to see some images of Marseille beaches, head here : http://www.marseille.fr/sitevdm/jsp/site/Portal.jsp?page=webcam&webcam_area=plages&page_id=1
16:12 * chris_n  heads off in search of food
16:06 gmcharlt   wizzyrea++
16:06 * wizzyrea wins
16:06 wizzyrea   oh good he's laughing now instead of sobbing
16:04 chris_n    lol
16:04 wizzyrea   hilongo: yes, the sled of time is sliding ever nearer to friday. I say throw up your hands and scream all the way ;)
16:04 hilongo    we'll have to relax... and slide
16:03 hilongo    So ... from now on... its all way down to next Friday .. :)
16:03 wizzyrea   chris_n: you're only 2 days from friday if you're in NZ :P
16:02 wizzyrea   paul_p: too true!
16:02 paul_p     wizzyrea, and this is really depending on your TZ !
16:02 wizzyrea   ;)
16:02 wizzyrea   you are distracted now, nonetheless
16:02 wizzyrea   am I being obtuse enough?
16:02 wizzyrea   equi-temporally-distant, I should say
16:02 wizzyrea   that being the point in the week at which you are equidistant from the last friday and your next one
16:01 wizzyrea   I was going to say we are at the apex of distance from friday, but I think actually we're over that hump
16:00 chris_n    wizzyrea: :)
16:00 chris_n    paul_p: it all depends on prospective.... going to vacation takes forever... coming back is very fast ;)
16:00 paul_p     lol :D
16:00 paul_p     wizzyrea++
16:00 wizzyrea   chris_n: hey, at least it's the day before the day before the day before friday
15:59 * chris_n  will take all of the spring he can get
15:59 paul_p     chris_n, lucky man. For me, it's always too fast...
15:58 chris_n    paul_p: sometimes time moves verrrrry slooowww
15:58 * paul_p   send chris_n a wave of spring sun from Marseille
15:58 kf         it feels like monday...
15:58 sekjal     perhaps they have some kind of time dilator
15:57 paul_p     chris_n, why are you asking about friday ? expecting for a week-end already ?
15:57 sekjal     I've heard of this restaurant that advertises to the contrary...
15:57 * chris_n  puts his head down and sobs into his keyboard
15:57 gmcharlt   chris_n: it's Friday ... nowhere, I'm afraid
15:56 gmcharlt   hi paul_p
15:56 chris_n    is it friday yet?
15:56 chris_n    howdy paul_p
15:54 paul_p     hello chris_n & wizzyrea & owen & everybody
15:52 chris_n    are we there yet?
15:11 jess       thanks a lot~~u all are so kind~~
15:11 wizzyrea   :) even when we can't help, we still try ;)
15:09 jess       thank you very much~~~u all help me a lot~~~^^
15:09 wizzyrea   as an example
15:09 wizzyrea   http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wp-e-commerce/
15:08 wizzyrea   they will probably do what you need
15:08 wizzyrea   I would look into e commerce solutions
15:08 sekjal     I'd recommend a CMS, then.  Wordpress is pretty great, and I think it may be faster to configure than Drupal or Joomla.
15:08 jess       it's just because we dont want to write the SQL lanuage, it's very troublesome
15:07 jess       yes...u're right, it isn't exactly a library catalog, we just need the function to searching..
15:06 wizzyrea   1s, let me look
15:06 wizzyrea   not library type catalogs
15:06 wizzyrea   like, store-type catalogs
15:06 wizzyrea   which is really I think what you're looking for
15:06 wizzyrea   yea, i think there are wordpress plugins that let you do catalog-type stuff
15:05 sekjal     Perhaps a CMS like Drupal or Joomla?
15:05 owen       jess: Is programming part of your assignment?
15:04 jess       mm.....thus....it seems that is impossible....
15:04 wizzyrea   as owen said, they all follow the standards
15:04 wizzyrea   I don't think any of the foss ILS's would explicitly allow that :/
15:03 jess       the easiest one is just use MS access, but we want to have the OPAC for value added.....
15:02 jess       we have to develop a metadata scheme for a topic and develop a database which can allow user to retrieve the information
15:01 jess       the course call Metadata
15:01 owen       What exactly is the assignment?
15:01 jess       mm....so.....it seems that i can't use koha to finish my assignment....
15:00 owen       Many many hours of work have gone into making the system work within those standards.
15:00 owen       jess: Part of the reason an open source ILS works is that it uses standards which are shared by libraries around the world
15:00 jess       mm.....we know.......we have already write our own tagging system...
14:59 sekjal     and the bibs would not be standard in anyway
14:59 sekjal     yes, the indexing would need to be rewritten, as well
14:58 hdl_laptop mmm... would result in many problems for indexing and sharing biblios
14:57 sekjal     so, as opposed to MARC21 and UNIMARC, you'd have PAINTMARC
14:57 owen       You're talking about defining your own data structure, setting up a system for indexing and querying that structure, and setting up a system for outputting that data
14:57 sekjal     you could encode that information in MARC format.  You'd just need to define your own meaning to the various fields and subfields, which is done throught the MARC frameworks
14:56 owen       To have a system which would allow you to create your own schemes from scratch would involve quite a bit of abstraction
14:56 jess       all of them are totally different from MARC, coz they are not print material....><
14:55 jess       for example, we would have the manufacturer's name, the function of the paint (e.g. interior emulsion, external emulsion etc.), the application of the paint (e.g. wood, wall, metal etc.), and the colour of the paint etc.
14:52 owen       How would your own scheme differ from a MARC one?
14:52 jess       thus we are now puzzling whether there is open source ILS which can allow us to develop our own sheme....>.<
14:51 wizzyrea   ohh.
14:49 jess       the metadata scheme we developed is totally different from MARC
14:49 jess       actually i'm doing my university assignment, and we are trying to develop a small size library about paint......
14:46 owen       It might be easier to create a new framework by cloning the default one. Then you could delete what you don't need and add anything that's missing
14:45 jess       is it mean that i have to delete the default framework and create a new one?
14:45 jess       good morning to you all~~^^
14:45 kf         good morning wizzyrea :)
14:44 wizzyrea   and good morning.
14:44 wizzyrea   you never have to apologize for asking questions here. :)
14:44 owen       It would be very tedious to do, but it's possible
14:44 owen       jess: You could create your own framework
14:43 jess       can i develop my own cataloging sheme instead of MARC which koha defaulted?
14:42 jess       i'm sorry that i wanna aske some question about Koha
13:41 jdavidb    :)
13:41 owen       Counting objects!
13:39 jdavidb    try the absolute directory spec?
13:38 owen       "public_html" is a symbolic link
13:38 owen       git clone ssh://example.com/public_html/my_repo.git
13:38 jdavidb    It might.
13:38 owen       I wonder if git would have a problem following a symbolic link?
13:37 jdavidb    (in the case of GitHub repos, the suffix .git is *always* needed)
13:36 jdavidb    a typo there will cause that problem.
13:36 jdavidb    if the directory you're trying to clone to already exists, that's bad.  clone to a name that does not exist; also make sure the logged in user has write privs where you are intending to put it.   On the far end, make sure the clone url is correct;
13:36 owen       "The remote end hung up unexpectedly"
13:35 owen       Trying to git clone a remote repo.
13:35 jdavidb    Context?
13:35 owen       Anyone up for a git question? "fatal: unable to chdir or not a git archive"
13:21 hilongo    gooood morning #Koha :)
12:55 * jwagner  starts singing Julia Ecklar's "Black Widows In the Privy"
12:50 * jdavidb  has a little list....none of them will ever be missed...
12:50 * jwagner  makes mental note to be exceptionally noisy from now on.
12:49 owen       Yeah. Murder cover-up.
12:49 jwagner    owen, you have small kids -- you know what it means when they're suspiciously quiet :-)
12:48 jwagner    heh, heh
12:48 kf         jwagner: you know us ;)
12:48 owen       Great things I hope
12:48 jwagner    When they're quiet, they're plotting things.....
12:47 jdavidb    hi, owen.  :)
12:47 owen       Hello quiet peoples of #koha
12:25 kf         morning chris_n
12:24 chris_n    morning
12:21 kf         gmcharlt: I will write him an email and ask for the script
12:18 kf         have to ask my colleague
12:17 gmcharlt   kf: thanks - could you send me a copy of that python script?
12:17 kf         gmcharlt: just let me know if you want me to convert the data for koha - my colleague wrote a python program for this task
12:15 kf         gmcharlt: we move authority numbers from our union catalog to $9 (withoug last number and (DE-576) and we use another utf-8 normalization
12:14 kf         gmcharlt: ah, we normally do some changes before importing them into koha
12:13 gmcharlt   kf: got it, thanks
12:13 gmcharlt   hi Amit
12:12 Amit       heya kf, gmcharlt
12:11 kf         ok, sent
12:03 kf         ok
12:02 gmcharlt   yep - gmcharlt@gmail.com
12:02 kf         which address?
12:02 kf         its about 5 mb - is email ok?
12:01 gmcharlt   kf: thanks
12:01 kf         gmcharlt: I have marc21 samples from our union catalog ready for you
11:59 kf         hi :)
11:58 gmcharlt   hi kf
11:58 kf         gmcharlt: around?
10:59 chris      excellent, and well deserved
10:57 gmcharlt   back and energized from a mini-vacation
10:57 chris      hi gmcharlt
10:52 gmcharlt   good morning
10:05 Nouman     hi all
08:57 Amit       heya Ropuch
07:59 Ropuch     Good morning #koha ;>
07:57 kf         good morning #koha :)
07:39 chris      evening
07:12 magnus     g'day #koha - and thus endeth the easter holiday in norway...
04:26 abdullatef hi
04:17 Jo         after the mayoral reception ... Levin really is turning it on!
04:17 Jo         woo hoo: Local Iwi are happy to co-host Koha conference attendees for a powhiri and evening meal out at the marae :)
03:44 Amit       good morning #koha
03:44 Amit       hi all
02:57 abdullatef please help us
02:56 abdullatef but the search is still not working
02:56 abdullatef we have checked it and the zebra is already installed
02:55 abdullatef hdl_laptop ask me to check the zebra in install.debian
02:54 abdullatef but unfortunately the search is not working
02:54 abdullatef we have install koha on debian
02:54 abdullatef yesterday i ask a question on searching
02:53 abdullatef I'm Abdullatef from Malaysia
02:53 abdullatef Hi there
01:14 larsw      ok, then I'll keep that, thanks :)
01:14 larsw      the perldoc command does not seem to give me any output
01:14 chris      seems fine to me
01:14 larsw      http://paste.debian.net/67605/ is what I came up on my own
01:13 chris      thats how we are using it at least
01:13 chris      larsw: try perldoc opac/oai.pl
01:05 chris      righto, 2 secs
01:05 larsw      I need some sensible description for the Debian package -- dh-make-perl just extracts the manpage's "this is a stub", which is not good
01:04 chris      yeah it lets you allow your OPAC to be harvested
01:03 larsw      ah, the module is not empty, after all, so I assume it will be needed
01:02 larsw      does Koha really need HTTP::OAI?
01:02 larsw      Koha declares a dependency on HTTP::OAI, but http://search.cpan.org/~timbrody/HTTP-OAI-3.22/lib/HTTP/OAI.pm says it is a stub module