Time Nick Message
12:00 |Lupin| The field appears in the MARC record, but yaz-marcdump does not provide any content for it...
12:08 |Lupin| ah, fields with tags <010 ddo not have indicaors...
12:09 chris marc is retarded
12:09 collum Just reading email from the listsrev. Should someone post that if help is asked from a specific company, that it's customary to pay them? :)
12:09 chris i just basically said, if you dont know what cron is, you shouldnt really be looking after a linux box
12:10 chris and with those 2 pieces of snarkiness, i bid you all goodnight :)
12:13 |Lupin| hi chris
12:13 hdl_laptop |Lupin|: 009 and all fields under 010 are accessed with $field->data
12:14 |Lupin| could any body please give me a hint about how to display additional MARC fields ?
12:14 hdl_laptop and to add field, MARC::Field->new($tag, $data)
12:14 hdl_laptop Note No indicator, no subfield
12:14 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: yeah, that's more o less what I discovered in the documentation of themodule. A wéas not aware these fields were special.
12:14 hdl_laptop sorry
12:15 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: np, thanks!
12:15 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: when these fiels are present in a record, where do they show up in Koha ?
12:19 hdl_laptop all depends on your framework configuration.
12:26 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: framework is "grille de catalogage" in french ?
12:26 hdl_laptop yes
12:26 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: ok, thanks. Will see how to add 009
12:35 |Lupin| hi owen
12:35 owen Hi
12:35 |Lupin| owen: I DID not forget the "skip to content" feature". Just a bit busy at the moment.
12:38 |Lupin| owen: ok
12:39 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: I just modified the default framework and added some text to dsplay besides to field 009, same text for OPAC and staff client, but the field is not displayed...
12:39 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: is there something else to change, pls ?
12:42 hdl_laptop have you checked 009 field was in database biblioitems.marcxml ?
12:45 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: no, not yet. Let me see.
12:46 ebegin |Lupin|, whn you edit the subfield, make sure you set the hidden (caché) value located in the « display more constraints » section
12:47 |Lupin| ebegin: there is no subfield for the 009 field I 'm trying to display
12:53 ebegin |Lupin|, when you edit your framework, you should have a Subfields link. Unless this is different in Unimarc.
12:54 |Lupin| ebegin: you mean for each field ?
12:54 ebegin yes
12:54 |Lupin| cause 009 does not hae subfields in Unimarc
12:55 hdl_laptop ebegin: same for USMARC 009 has no subfields
12:55 ebegin |Lupin| hdl_laptop but the framework still have a Subfields link beside 009
13:02 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: sorry it tookme so long
13:02 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: <controlfield tag="009">58</controlfield>
13:03 hdl_laptop do you have 009 and subfield "@" (stands for no_subfields) in your "grille de catalogage" ?
13:04 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: where should I look to see that ?
13:04 |Lupin| hdl_laptop: either in terms of web interfrace, or perhaps simpler, in terms of tables in the db
13:06 hdl_laptop admin/frameworks/
13:11 |Lupin| oh
13:11 |Lupin| now it's there
13:11 |Lupin| hmm the field appears in the frawework
13:11 |Lupin| but I don't see the "@" sign you were mentionning hdl_laptop
13:12 |Lupin| hdl_laptop ebegin: still, there is the subfields link for this field
13:12 ebegin yes, but only for editing purpose. Click on it
13:13 ebegin Then click the Edit Subfields button
13:14 ebegin Make sure you have a value in the Managed in Tab (usually 0)
13:14 ebegin Click on the Display more constraints link (the first one)
13:14 |Lupin| actually I kcan see the @ hdl_laptop was mentionning
13:15 |Lupin| @ Ancien 001 sous-champ ignoré Supprimer
13:15 munin |Lupin|: downloading the Perl source
13:15 ebegin haha... |Lupin| forget munin comment :)
13:16 |Lupin| :)
13:17 ebegin Set the hidden (caché) field to something like 4 (show Expanded in Intranet and Editor, don't show in OPAC)
13:20 |Lupin| hmm
13:20 |Lupin| I'm not sure I can do that
13:20 |Lupin| depends if it uses javascript or not
13:20 |Lupin| cause I'm using lynx...
13:21 ebegin it does uses javascript...
13:22 ebegin s/uses/use/
13:22 |Lupin| ebegin: I can see the "hidden (0)" thing
13:22 |Lupin| ah and I can modify the 0
13:22 |Lupin| ebegin: so you said 4 ?
13:22 ebegin Your option is to change it directly in the database then
13:23 |Lupin| is the semantics fo the value documented somewhere ?
13:23 ebegin in the help file linked to the page
13:23 |Lupin| ebegin: actually lynx does not show a link
13:23 |Lupin| "(voir aide en ligne)" is not a link
13:24 ebegin http://pastebin.ca/1485657
13:25 ebegin In the top right corner of your page, there is a ?, this is a contextual help
13:25 |Lupin| ebegin: hanks
13:25 |Lupin| ebegin: actually the submit button does not work :/
13:27 ebegin that is strange.
13:28 |Lupin| ebegin: no no it's not the first time that happens
13:29 |Lupin| ebegin: it's because these bttons are not simple buttons, they have onsubmit attributes that make they require js
13:30 |Lupin| ebegin (or someone else): any hint which column in which ta ble to modify ?
13:31 ebegin marc_subfield_structure » hidden
13:32 |Lupin| ebegin: ok, thanks !!
13:45 |Lupin| okay, I have modified the database and it does stillnot work, I think
13:45 |Lupin| I can't see the 009 field in the staff client
13:50 ebegin Do you see it when you try to edit your record?
13:51 ebegin Which hidden value did you set?
13:53 |Lupin| ebegin: 4
13:54 |Lupin| ebegin: I think the edit feature requires javascript so I can't test that.
13:55 ebegin ok... you are not getting crazy |Lupin|, I don't see it either :)
13:57 |Lupin| ebegin: ah, you tried, thanks a lot !!
14:17 ebegin grr... |Lupin|, it shows in the editor... but not at the right place... it's located before 001, not after 008...
14:18 ebegin |Lupin|, false alarm... it doesn't show...
14:19 |Lupin| ahah
14:19 |Lupin| ebegin: but the text I defined for the 09 field appears in te database
14:24 |Lupin| is the default framework used only in the staff client, or also in the opac, actually ?
14:25 |Lupin| I thought both, e.g. because each field has two descriptions, one for OPAC and one for staff client...
14:27 kf I think this description is used in the MARC-View
14:29 |Lupin| kf: that's what I thought, too, but even in thae marc view the field does not appear at all
14:31 kf mom testing :)
14:32 kf I added 689 and some subfields to the MARC-Framework, its shown in MARC-View and Expanded MARC-View, Expanded MARC-View uses the description
14:32 kf perhaps its a problem with coded fields without subfields?
14:33 kf and check if your hidden value allows display in OPAC
14:33 |Lupin| kf: we set it to four
14:33 kf mom I will look it up
14:34 |Lupin| kf: and yes it's a coded field without subfield, but I don't know whether this means there is somethingmore to do
14:34 |Lupin| kf: thanks !
14:35 |Lupin| btw, the command used to update the table was:
14:35 kf ok, 4 was the wrong choice :) !OPAC Intranet Editor !Collapsed
14:35 |Lupin| update marc_subfield_structure set hidden=4 where tagfield='009' and frameworkcode='';
14:35 |Lupin| I assume this is the right thing ?
14:35 kf try -1: OPAC Intranet Editor Collapsed
14:35 |Lupin| kf: ok !
14:36 |Lupin| I think I mis read the text ebegin pasted on the web for me
14:37 kf can you access the help file in staff client from edit subfields page with f1? there is a liste of the values
14:37 kf I think it muste be on the wiki too
14:37 ebegin kf 4 should display in on the Intranet et Editor...
14:37 kf http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=marc_subfields_structure.tmpl&s[]=marc&s[]=tag&s[]=structure&s[]=administration
14:38 kf yes, but not in OPAC
14:38 ebegin But |Lupin| do not see it in the Intranet ;)
14:38 ebegin s/do/does/
14:39 kf ok, I started reading when it was about the OPAC description and how to show it in OPAC :)
14:40 |Lupin| hmm
14:40 |Lupin| actually still don't see anything in the opac
14:41 |Lupin| The MARC view starts with 010 ISBN
14:42 kf i try adding a new 0xx-field now
14:43 |Lupin| and in the staff client I don't see anything either
14:44 kf ok, I added 019 without subfields successfully in 3.2 -installation
14:44 kf lupin, are u using MARC21 or UNIMARC?
14:45 |Lupin| kf: UNIMARC
14:46 kf ok, im using MARC"!
14:46 kf 21
14:46 |Lupin| kf: not sure whether 019 is meaningful
14:46 kf I think it isnt, but it wasnt there :)
14:46 |Lupin| kf: ah it was not there, ok
14:46 kf which value do you have in tab column?
14:47 |Lupin| kf: do you know where this is stored in the db ?
14:47 kf marc_subfield_structur.tab
14:47 |Lupin| ok ok
14:47 kf +e
14:47 |Lupin| kf: let me see
14:49 |Lupin| kf: -1
14:49 kf ok :)
14:49 kf set it to 0
14:50 kf its called managed in tab in staff client, I think -1 is either hidden or items
14:52 |Lupin| kf: sure, I'll change it
14:52 |Lupin| kf: I don't understand the meaning, though. Can you please explin ?
14:53 |Lupin| kf: I'm a newbie so I know nothing about ILMSs
14:53 kf the editor is organised in tabs
14:54 kf with managed in tag you can choose in which tag or page you want it to display
14:54 kf normally you choose tab nine for 9xx fields, tab 8 for 8xx fields and so on
14:55 |Lupin| kf: ah I see
14:55 kf there is also an items tab, for fields that belong to items and one value for hidden
14:55 kf I think you cant work with the editor, as its using javascript?
14:55 |Lupin| so every field numbered xyz is show in tab x, unless the tab field says something diffferent. Is that correct ?
14:55 ebegin |Lupin|, i'm pretty sure that it is a problem with the < 010 field. I set the hidden to 0, and it shows in the Editor. hidden = 4 doesn't show.. It's a bug ...
14:56 |Lupin| kf: right, I can't use the editor inmy current configuration
14:57 |Lupin| ebegin: ok
14:57 kf in the default framework yes
14:57 kf but there are some exceptions as 952 fields are managed in items
14:57 |Lupin| kf: in other frameworks it works differently ?
14:57 |Lupin| kf: ahah.
14:58 kf you can change it when adding your own framework
14:58 kf so that all fields are on one page, if you like that better
14:58 kf for example a framework for ill records with only a few fields on one page
14:58 |Lupin| kf: but if the field affects only the editor, it wo't affect the MARC view in opac and staff client, right ?
14:59 |Lupin| (I didn't have the opportunity to check)
14:59 kf I think only the editor, not sure about it
14:59 kf did setting tab to 0 change anything?
14:59 |Lupin| let me see what happens in the opac for instance
15:01 |Lupin| no change in the opac
15:02 kf after setting tab to -1 = ignore I can see 019 in MARC view, but not in Epanded MARC View
15:04 kf hm with 0 its only displaed in MARC View too... perhaps a bug
15:06 kf ok, now im out of ideas :(
15:06 |Lupin| kf: okay. Thanks a lot for having tried so hard, thanks to ebegin, too.
15:06 |Lupin| Maybe time to send an e-mail to the list...
15:07 kf perhaps my database entries could give you a hint?
15:09 ebegin I repeat... the problem is with field < 10 AND hidden = 4 ( or any value >=4 )
15:10 |Lupin| I don't know kf
15:10 |Lupin| ebegin: actually, what's your suggestion ?
15:10 ebegin |Lupin|, set it to 1 (!OPAC, Intranet, Editor, Collapse)
15:11 |Lupin| btw what does Collapse mean ?
15:11 ebegin there is an explicit condition on hidden >= 4 in the code... cataloguing/addbiblio.pl
15:13 ebegin |Lupin|, déplier
15:13 ebegin Synonyme of expanded
15:14 ebegin opposite, sorry :)
15:14 |Lupin| ebegin: !Intranet means it won't work in the Intranet
15:14 ebegin yes, don't show
15:14 |Lupin| s/intranet/opac/
15:15 |Lupin| ebegin: so 1 won't have the effect of showing it everywhere, but you are suggesting this value because it will make the situation mbetter than it is now,correct ?
15:17 ebegin 1 won't show it in the OPAC, but in the intranet. The Collapse is used to expand the subfield, but since 009 doesn't have subfield, the collapse is irrelevant
15:17 ebegin 4 = ! OPAC Intranet Editor !Collapse
15:18 ebegin 1 = ! OPAC Intranet Editor Collaps
15:18 pianohacker Good morning
15:19 ebegin hi pianohacker
15:19 pianohacker Hey, eric
15:20 |Lupin| ebegin: ok
15:24 owen Anyone else finding that opac-userupdate.pl isn't sending email to the administrator?
15:26 |Lupin| owen: never tried this feature
15:27 ebegin who is (was) toins?
15:28 hdl_laptop Antoine Franault
15:28 hdl_laptop used to work in France with us
15:28 ebegin hdl_laptop, used to? Not working anymore?
15:29 hdl_laptop working for France telecom on security issues
15:30 ebegin ok.. trying to figure out the reason of a condition in cataloguing/addbiblio.pl (search for ">= 4")
15:30 pianohacker ebegin: Is it the 'hidden' field?
15:31 ebegin yep
15:34 pianohacker ebegin: The 'hidden' field is not consistent in any shape or form
15:34 pianohacker It resembles a bitmask, but only partially
15:34 pianohacker Not only are the docs confusing, but actually inconsistent with the code
15:35 ebegin pianohacker, I agree... that why we should'nt test them with < or >
15:35 pianohacker ebegin: Hey, I'm all for a consistency patch right there
15:36 pianohacker One day, I hope to send a database upgrade and some code to make sense of that field
15:37 kf pianohacker: had no time for bug report about professional to organisation linking today :( will try again tomorrow
15:37 pianohacker k, cool
15:38 ebegin It's ok to use bitfield... but the user shouldn't have to care about it... The UI should be checkboxes.
15:39 |Lupin| ebegin++
15:50 owen Can anyone explain to me why the syntax "$query->{'modify'}" would fail to work when "$query->param('modify')" would?
15:51 pianohacker owen: To be honest, I have no idea how $query->{'modify'} worked in the first place
15:52 owen Perhaps it didn't :)
15:59 pianohacker It looks like that sort of syntax (if not that exact line) was present in the file from the beginnig
15:59 pianohacker *beginning
16:00 pianohacker $ git log -p opac/opac-userupdate.pl
16:23 atz owen: it's an object... you have to use the methods
16:24 owen Thanks atz. I was trying fixes without really know exactly what I was doing. I'm still not sure whether the first version worked at one time.
16:24 atz if the object decides in one version to store data at $self->{modify} in one version, and someplace else in another, it's the coder's fault for relying on the particularity of the data location and not the method api
16:24 owen Hi Sharon
16:24 Sharon Hiya Owen
16:24 Sharon Finally out of all my meetings, so I can log into all my chatrooms
16:46 |Lupin| hi gmcharlt !
16:48 |Lupin| till soon, everybody
17:13 gmcharlt hi folks
17:13 pianohacker Hello
17:14 hdl_laptop hi gmcharlt
17:30 chris hi all
17:30 pianohacker Hi
18:32 gmcharlt owen: go for lost causes - insist on XHTML2 compliance!
18:33 owen I feel that in order to be usable by the widest variety of browsers Koha should be designed to use HTML 2.
18:33 owen It's the logical-extension of the tables-are-bad debate!
18:34 gmcharlt owen: before I support you on your HTML5 RFC, I have to ask you what video codec the Koha project should support ;)
18:35 owen Every time you check in a book a little video loads and Nancy Pearl recites her capsule review of it.
18:36 gmcharlt @quote add <owen> Every time you check in a book a little video loads and Nancy Pearl recites her capsule review of it.
18:36 munin gmcharlt: The operation succeeded. Quote #12 added.
18:43 ebegin gmcharlt, about the welcome message, what does LMS stand for?
18:44 gmcharlt LMS = "library management system" = ILS
18:44 ebegin ok, thanks :)
18:45 gmcharlt ebegin: feel free to edit page to expand the acronyms
18:49 owen gmcharlt: I'd like to add to git the source files for a couple of images: the Koha logo and the backgrond image used by the cart and lists buttons
18:50 gmcharlt owen: good idea
18:50 owen Where do you think I should put them? Alongside other OPAC images?
18:50 gmcharlt will we need signoff by rach to include the source for the Koha logo?
18:51 owen I'm not sure about that one.
18:51 gmcharlt wouldn't hurt to put them in the OPAC imagedir, but since the webserver won't actually be serving them, some place in misc might be better
18:52 owen Create a new directory there for images?
18:53 gmcharlt yes
18:53 gmcharlt misc/interface_customization
18:53 gmcharlt to suggest a general name
18:54 owen Okay, and I'll contact rach before I do anything with the logo
18:54 gmcharlt cool
19:42 chris bb later
20:45 richard hi
20:48 hdl_laptop hi richard
20:49 richard hi hdl_laptop
20:49 wizzyrea I have kind of a curious problem
20:50 pianohacker You can be curiously problematic sometimes
20:55 wizzyrea ^.^ I try to be entertaining
21:07 Jo morning all
21:14 chris back
21:15 gmcharlt hi Jo
21:23 Jo Hi Gelen
21:23 Jo Galen - sorry
21:23 gmcharlt Jo: at least that's a new mispelling ;)
21:24 Jo :) its my silly sticky keyboard
21:46 |Lupin| hello !
21:46 pianohacker wizzyrea: What was your curious problem?
21:49 wizzyrea oh, after our last install items apparently were'nt getting tagged with their current location
21:49 wizzyrea last update, rather
21:51 |Lupin| some librarians around, please ?
21:52 pianohacker How loose is your "librarians" requirement?
21:52 |Lupin| pianohacker: it's loose enough
21:52 pianohacker What's up?
21:52 |Lupin| I'm thinking about one possible use of koha
21:53 |Lupin| and wold like to know whether koha would be suitable for that.
21:53 |Lupin| idea is not completely clear yet
21:53 |Lupin| just a first thought
21:53 |Lupin| it's to create a specialized cataloge on one theme
21:54 |Lupin| let's say it's philosophy
21:54 |Lupin| so I'd like to kep track of all the books on philosoophy, say, that are present in a certain number of libraries
21:55 |Lupin| Moreover, I'd like to distinguish those items that are accessible to print disabled persons, either because they are available as files, or because they are in braille, audiobooks, etc.
21:56 |Lupin| Setting up a koha, declare all the libraries, catalogue the bibliographic records and declare all the holdings, would that be the right approach ?
21:56 |Lupin| or at least an accurate one ?
21:56 chris accurate for about 20 seconds
21:57 |Lupin| oh oh
21:57 chris until one of the libraries changes something
21:57 imp is it possible to search for stuff inside of some digital stuff stored in koha, like pdfs?
21:57 |Lupin| chris: as I already said, I _completely_ new to the field (new reads dumb)
21:57 chris imp: nope koha is a LMS, not a digital library system
21:57 chris but if you use something like kete
21:58 chris then koha can search itself, and kete
21:58 chris |Lupin|: i know you are not dumb :)
21:58 imp chris: thx for the pointer :)
21:58 chris |Lupin|: the problem i can see with your approach is keeping it up to date
21:59 |Lupin| chris: yeah, I kind of realised that, so I was wondering how to cope with that, perhaps just giving one URL for each holding, or something like that ? Or is the approach completely wrong ?
21:59 chris |Lupin|: i think it would be nicer to have targets that you search
21:59 chris and then reformat the results
21:59 chris so when you do a search, it searches 10 library catalogues
22:00 chris and then returns you the results, which you then present in a way you like
22:00 |Lupin| chris: hmm... the roblem is that not all of them have APIs.
22:00 chris do they all have z3950 servers?
22:01 |Lupin| Also, one of the important thing is to catalogue any material accessible to print-disabled persons, no matter whehther it is available somewhere for loan, for buying...
22:02 chris *nod*
22:02 |Lupin| chris: definitely not, and they probably never will
22:02 chris yours might be the best of the rest then
22:02 chris if you cant get realtime data out, that might be the best you can do
22:02 |Lupin| chris: some libraries for the blinds here in France are recording on cassettes and printing their catalogue on paper, so that the catalogue is not even accessible to those who are supposed to read the books
22:03 chris heh, thats crazy
22:03 |Lupin| yes
22:03 chris you have seen worldcat eh |Lupin| ?
22:03 chris http://www.worldcat.org/
22:03 |Lupin| these libraries are generally driven by old persons who are very good willing, but not much ready to adapt themselves
22:04 chris *nod*
22:04 |Lupin| chris: just know the name
22:04 |Lupin| chris: why are you mentionnng it right now ?
22:04 chris when the wellington theosophical society got Koha, i spend more time teaching the people there how to move a mouse, than how to use koha
22:05 |Lupin| :)
22:05 chris |Lupin|: just that you might be able to use it as a source for getting a lot of bibliographical data
22:05 |Lupin| do they catalogue all the books on the topic, or only those for which they own at least one item ?
22:05 chris http://www.worldcat.org/advancedsearch
22:06 |Lupin| chris: but they don't have a Z39.50 server, do they ?
22:06 chris nope
22:06 chris biblios.net otoh do
22:06 chris i was more thinking of worldcat being an example of what you are trying to do
22:06 chris a catalogue of catalogues :)
22:07 pianohacker Perhaps something along the lines of Masterkey?
22:07 |Lupin| chris: in fact what I want is just to provide people a place where they can look for a book on a given field. And as an additional service for those who are print-disabled, I'd like to provide, for each book, a list of libraries where they can find a version of that book they can read
22:08 |Lupin| pianohacker: ah I didn't know this
22:08 chris yep, thats pretty much what worldcat is trying to do
22:09 |Lupin| chris: ok.
22:09 chris without the print-disabled bit
22:09 |Lupin| chris: and my feeling is that, accoding to you, installing a Koha is not the most efficient way to reach the goal, right ?
22:10 chris no i dont think so
22:10 chris but, if there is no way to search the catalogues
22:10 chris ie they are on paper
22:10 chris then koha might well be a good solution
22:11 |Lupin| chris: I see
22:11 chris it will involve someone's time keeping it up to date though
22:11 |Lupin| sure
22:12 |Lupin| but the same koha could, for instance, serve also to keep track of the books of one local library with printed books ? or one should necessarily have two distinct kohas ?
22:12 pianohacker Hmm. It looks like pazpar2 is open source but masterkey is not
22:12 chris pianohacker: im not sure even masterkey can search paper :-)
22:13 pianohacker Oh, nevermind. Ignore the idiot
22:13 chris |Lupin|: it could be all in the same koha
22:13 |Lupin| chris: okay, that was what I was thinking
22:13 |Lupin| also
22:14 |Lupin| how wold one represent the itms accessible to print disabled ?
22:14 |Lupin| would that be one single item type ?
22:14 chris maybe one collection code
22:14 chris which can have a few itemtypes
22:14 |Lupin| the requirement is that one is able to do a search limited to those books that are accessible
22:15 chris *nod*
22:15 chris you can limit by collection code
22:15 chris if you switch on that option in the system preferences
22:15 |Lupin| ahah
22:15 chris that means you could have
22:15 chris 'Print Disabled'
22:16 |Lupin| I thought collections where just published series of books, i.e. a publisher publishes a collection
22:16 chris and that could contain 'Talking Books','Audio CD' .. not sure what else
22:16 |Lupin| actually it's more than that ?
22:16 chris yes
22:16 chris let me find Jo's post on it
22:16 |Lupin| chris: thanks
22:17 |Lupin| chris: to your list one could add digital files, braille...
22:17 pianohacker They're really just refinements of item types; for instance, you can have a DVD itemtype and Non-fiction DVD, Children's DVD and Fiction DVD collections
22:17 chris ahh of course
22:17 |Lupin| hmm
22:18 chris http://library-matters.blogspot.com/2009/03/summary-of-discussion-about-item-types.html
22:18 |Lupin| how do you know whether it's an item type or a collection code that is more appropriate to represent something ?
22:18 chris that post might help, at least i hope it does
22:18 |Lupin| chris: thanks a lot !
22:18 chris thank jo, she wrote it :)
22:19 |Lupin| :)
22:25 |Lupin| okay, finished reading
22:26 |Lupin| Will have to come back to it, because for a newbie like me this is a bit fst...
22:26 chris if Jo is around later, she might be able to help
22:26 pianohacker Any particular points we can (attempt to) clear up?
22:26 |Lupin| Are the concepts of item types and CCodes koha-specific, or rather common and well understood in library science ?
22:27 |Lupin| pianohacker: well... I discovered collection codes a few minutes ago so I feel a bit dull...
22:28 |Lupin| is it correct that item types are something defined at the item level and never at the bib level ?
22:28 chris Koha specific |Lupin|
22:28 chris and no, you can define it at either level
22:28 |Lupin| ok
22:28 Jo I'm back
22:28 chris i prefer at itemlevel though
22:29 |Lupin| both item types and CCodes can be defined at both levels ?
22:29 pianohacker ccodes are item level only
22:30 |Lupin| So are ccodes stored as marc fields, or not ?
22:31 Jo (I spent 3 weeks agonizing over CCodes and item types)
22:31 |Lupin| hi Jo :)
22:31 pianohacker |Lupin|: Koha stores items as both holdings tags (952 tags) and as rows in the items SQL table
22:31 pianohacker So they're _technically_ marc fields, yes, but it's an artifact of the implementation
22:32 chris (thats for marc21)
22:32 chris im not sure where it stores them for UNIMARC
22:32 |Lupin| chris: yep, I assume it's 995 in Unimarc
22:32 chris if thats where the rest of the item stuff is, then yep
22:32 |Lupin| chris: I think so...
22:33 Jo http://library-matters.blogspot.com/2009/03/dont-be-afraid-of-using-lots-of-item.html
22:33 pianohacker confirmed, from the default framework for UNIMARC
22:33 Jo this is where I ended up with tem types and ccodes
22:33 |Lupin| I see a difference between item types and ccodes, but I'm not sure
22:34 |Lupin| it seems to me that item types are mutually exclusive
22:34 |Lupin| whereas ccodes are not
22:34 |Lupin| is that true ?
22:34 Jo http://opac.koha.catalystdemo.net.nz/cgi-bin/koha/opac-search.pl shows our 12 ccodes
22:34 pianohacker |Lupin|: They are both, unfortunately, mutually exclusive (on the same item, at least)
22:34 Jo these are used to break 73 item types into searchable mnanageable chunks
22:35 pianohacker |Lupin|: The main practical difference is that you can set circulation rules by itemtype, but not by circulation code
22:35 pianohacker *ccode
22:35 Jo yep.
22:35 |Lupin| ok
22:35 pianohacker In general, another difference is that itemtypes are more general and ccodes are more specific, but you by no means are required to do so
22:35 |Lupin| and in the case we were discussing before
22:36 pianohacker Jo seems to have taken the opposite approach with good results, for example
22:36 |Lupin| where there would be no loan of books
22:36 |Lupin| this difference vanishes ?
22:37 |Lupin| Jo: I already read your blog post, thanks. As I said will have to come back to it cause I'm not librarian and it's tough
22:37 Jo tghe second post is much shorter - summary
22:38 |Lupin| oh I didn't realize there were two
22:38 Jo I used itemtypes as specific and ccode to generalize, and default circulation rules (only stating the exceptions to the rule not every rule)
22:40 |Lupin| Jo: So the things like Adult Nonfiction on the site you have given are what ? item types or ccodes ?
22:40 Jo Adult nonfiction is a ccode,
22:41 Jo which is used to cluster together a bunch of item types: BNM (Maori) BNH (local History) and BN (general adult nonfiction)
22:42 Jo and ditto for ccode DVD, which clusters togteher 6 different DVD item types, being various combinations of free and rental, then Junior. young adult and Adult.
22:44 Jo now back to your print disabled example, you could assign a ccode to every item you want part of a specific collction, regardless of what item type they are.
22:44 |Lupin| Jo: would you say that it's by plaing with the things that you became (more) familiar ?
22:45 Jo Lupin, I totally sympathize. As i said, I spent weeks struggling with this and that is why I wrote the blog posts.
22:45 Jo there are 3 of them, and I tried an arrangement empahsiszing iteem types, then truied emphasizing ccodes.
22:45 |Lupin| hmm an item can have one ccode and an item type, but it can't have several item types or several ccodes... right ?
22:45 pianohacker |Lupin|: Correct
22:45 Jo thats right.
22:46 Jo Lupion: I found it easier once I made a clear statement about what I wanted to achieve.i think y
22:46 Jo then, once you know where you are heading, you can identity various ways of achieving that result.
22:46 Jo and for me, 1 way stood out as being superior.
22:47 |Lupin| Right.
22:47 Jo koha's flexibility is fantastic, but overwhelming too.
22:47 |Lupin| :)
22:47 Jo I am very happy to help you here, and I found loads of support when I was struggling with this issue.
22:47 Jo I have only 1 solution, others have equally valid and helpful solutions.
22:48 |Lupin| sure
22:48 |Lupin| and I guess I'll have to build mine
22:48 |Lupin| which may be even difeent
22:48 Jo so articulate clearly what you want to achieve at the end for your users.
22:48 |Lupin| but this doesn't matter, the support of the community is precious and helpful
22:48 Jo yep
22:48 |Lupin| I think it's very simple
22:49 |Lupin| I want to ctalogue books that are available for print disabled nder different forms
22:49 |Lupin| I want to keep track of the form
22:49 |Lupin| and also I want to keep track of whether a book ias available in an accessible form, no matter which form it is.
22:50 |Lupin| so suppose you are a blind user
22:50 |Lupin| you should be able to say
22:50 |Lupin| find all the books that are accessible for me
22:50 |Lupin| and the system will list them, say what is available and where, and in which form.
22:52 |Lupin| does this make sens ?
22:52 pianohacker yes
22:52 |Lupin| good point :)
22:54 pianohacker My first guess would be to create item types for each form you have ("Talking Book", "Audio Book", "Book"), and have a "Print Disabled" collection code
22:54 pianohacker I think that's what chris was thinking of, as well
22:55 |Lupin| right
22:55 |Lupin| but
22:55 |Lupin| with such a set-up
22:56 |Lupin| woudl koha guess on its own that an item that has the item type talking book belongs to the print disables ccode ?
22:56 |Lupin| I mean, I'm looking for a way to have simple rles saying hat braile is ok for print disabled...
22:57 pianohacker Koha would not be able to guess that on its own, no
22:58 |Lupin| ah
22:58 |Lupin| too bad
22:58 chris if it could reason like that
22:58 chris we would have to shut it down
22:58 chris or it would send terminators after us
22:58 |Lupin| hmm ?
22:59 pianohacker We'd have to send someone back in time to talk to Rosalie Blake, like in Terminator 2
22:59 chris you have heard of the movie 'Terminator' |Lupin| ?
23:00 chris where machines began thinking, and realised they didnt need humans anymore
23:00 |Lupin| yes
23:00 |Lupin| but never seen
23:00 |Lupin| doesn't matter :)
23:00 chris or 2001? .. its a common science fiction theme :)
23:01 |Lupin| yep
23:01 |Lupin| I mean I understood the idea
23:01 pianohacker |Lupin|: You can search for multiple item types at once; all a "Print Disabled" collection code would do would be to make it easier to search
23:01 |Lupin| what I didn't understand was why you were saying that
23:01 pianohacker For instance: http://jcfld.us.to/cgi-bin/koha/opac-search.pl?q=itype%3ABOOK+OR+itype%3ADVD
23:02 chris ahh i was joking ,that if the computer could guess correctly what items were accessible, it would be intelligent :)
23:03 |Lupin| chris: ok. but I meant you would tell him which item types are part of the print disabled collection, sya, and then you just have to give the right item type to the book and koha knows that the collection is the reunion of all the item types... like in a hierarchy...
23:04 |Lupin| pianohacker: yes tha was more or less what I had in mind
23:04 Jo couldn't you do a bulk update for some item types: so run a script which did something like "where itemtypes = audio book eneter<printdisabled> into the ccode field
23:04 Jo and ditto for largeprint item types etc.
23:05 |Lupin| Jo: sure, this could probabl be done
23:05 Jo thats how Chris has assigned ccodes to itemtypes
23:05 |Lupin| Jo: but I'd say I'd do that as a fall back, because this does not look very clean to me
23:06 chris that was a part of a migration
23:06 chris im not sure you would want to do that as a continual thing
23:06 Jo yep.
23:06 chris but certainly when migrating you would do that
23:06 |Lupin| not sure either
23:06 |Lupin| what about virtual shelves ?
23:06 |Lupin| would these help ?
23:06 Jo the problem is that you have to decide wherether advanced sedarch is by itemtype or ccode.
23:06 chris the rest of the time, it relies on the cataloguer assigning the right code
23:07 |Lupin| k
23:07 Jo and if you choose ccode then for advanced search to work every item in the collection should be identified by a ccode of some sort
23:07 Jo so bulk update at data conversion time, then item by item, while cataloguing new stuff
23:08 |Lupin| I'm really wondering whether koha is the right tool to do this specific thing
23:08 Jo don't be disheartend Lupin :)
23:08 |Lupin| the advantage I can see is that it offers good research capabilities, which a reader may want
23:09 |Lupin| Jo: ok :)
23:09 Jo Koha is amazingly versatile
23:09 |Lupin| Jo: just trying to remain agnostic regarding what tool would be best...
23:09 Jo its just that as librarians we are used to being told what we can have, not being able to say what we want.
23:12 |Lupin| would tags help ?
23:12 chris whatever you choose
23:12 chris tags, virtual shelves, ccodes, itemtypes
23:13 pianohacker |Lupin|: Maybe, though it's currently a bit inconvenient to set tags as part of cataloging
23:13 chris it relies on someone cataloguing things correctly
23:13 pianohacker The same applies to virtual shelves
23:13 chris there is not going to be any way to automagically pick them im afraid
23:13 |Lupin| chris: I realize it.
23:14 |Lupin| chris: I just thought one may be able to minimize
23:14 |Lupin| e.g. by saying that a set of books shold be defined as the reunion of smaller sets
23:15 Jo I have to head off to other work, I'll think some more about this.
23:15 Jo and what you just said is exactly how I have arranged my collection
23:16 Jo 1 ccode being a reunion of smaller sets (identified by itemtypes)
23:17 |Lupin| Jo: yes, but you have to enter both, whereas I was looking for a way to do it such that when a record is identified by an item type, you don't have to give the ccode explicitly
23:18 |Lupin| anyway. I don't want you guys to think I'm frustrated or anything like that, it's not true at all. I'm just strongly thinking and asking myself questions, it is certainly not obvious on IRC to distinguish frustration from questionning.
23:20 pianohacker |Lupin|: That being quite the understatement :)
23:20 pianohacker We're happy to help
23:21 Jo absolutely
23:22 Jo (I think I drove people mad in the end... Nicole stopped just short of slapping me with a: "stop overthinking it" message !
23:22 Jo it is actually really helpful to participate in this 'thinking it through' process... h
23:23 |Lupin| :)
23:23 |Lupin| thanks to all of you :)
23:23 |Lupin| I hope I can have the koha set up soon so I'll have something to show you
23:25 |Lupin| okay, time to go sleeping. So long!
23:26 pianohacker bye
23:26 chris sleep well
23:26 |Lupin| thanks , have a nice day chris :)
23:37 pianohacker Good night, all
02:56 Jo Richard: are you about?
02:56 Jo Katipo Richard :)
02:57 richard hi jo. just saw your email
03:23 Jo cool
03:24 Amit hi chris,
03:24 Amit good morning #koha
04:15 Jo morning Amit
04:16 Amit hi Jo
04:53 Amit hi hdl
06:00 kf good morning :)
07:15 veki does KOHA suport ISO ILL standard(s)?
07:17 hdl_laptop veki: I donot think so.
07:17 hdl_laptop But do you have some docs to hint to what kind of support you are asking ?
07:18 veki hdl_laptop: ok, I gues that Marc21 compliance can do that work.
07:18 veki hdl_laptop: please look this http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/iso/ill/stanprf.htm
07:19 veki hdl_laptop: maybe you can look at this too: http://www.nla.gov.au/librariesaustralia/isoill.html
07:33 chris wow that certainly looks like an ISO standard alright
07:34 chris im fairly sure they make these almost incomprehensible on purpose
07:36 veki chris: indeed, LOL
07:52 veki chris: maybe this link i s useful http://www.eln.bc.ca/view.php?id=1085
09:31 chris @seen ecorrado
09:31 munin chris: ecorrado was last seen in #koha 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 49 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <ecorrado> taht solitare image is funny
09:54 |Lupin| hello, there !
09:55 |Lupin| today something weird happens with koha.
09:55 |Lupin| Can't locate C4/Context.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/seb/src/koha ...
09:55 |Lupin| and C4/Context.pm is in the first directory in @INC !
10:02 |Lupin| hmm, was a permission problem... the Perl message as not very helpful
10:43 ebegin good morning #koha
10:54 kf good morning ebegin
10:58 ebegin bb soon
11:28 |Lupin| back after lunch