Time  Nick       Message
15:00 hdl_laptop hi all
15:01 hdl_laptop any one able to tell me more about copynumber for marc21 ?
15:02 jwagner    hdl_laptop, in what sense?  MARC standard? or within Koha?
15:03 nahuel     jwagner, in MARC standard
15:04 gmcharlt   in a MARC21 holdings record (or holdings info embedded in bib), usually found in the 852 $t
15:06 jwagner    I was looking at the Library of Congress site -- zeroing in on what gmcharlt says, take a look at http://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/bd852.html
15:07 nahuel     gmcharlt, but in koha stock-number is in 037
15:08 nahuel     melm 037        Identifier-standard,Stock-number (in zebra config)
15:08 gmcharlt   that's different from a copy number
15:08 gmcharlt   stock number is assigned by publisher or distributor
15:09 nahuel     ah
15:09 gmcharlt   copy number is what a library assigns to a particular item
15:09 nahuel     we're looking for a way to have an "inventory number"
15:09 gmcharlt   inventory number assigned by library or by a third party?
15:09 nahuel     by library
15:10 gmcharlt   probably should define a new item field for that
15:11 gmcharlt   I assume that these inventory numbers are distinct from the item barcodes?
15:12 nahuel     yes they are
15:12 nahuel     but in unimarc we do not really know in which field put it...
15:12 nahuel     and to make a search on it to permit auto increment, etc...
15:12 nahuel     well code something link autobarcode
15:13 gmcharlt   they should increment per new item, not per new bib, correct?
15:13 nahuel     yes
15:13 nahuel     like barcode
15:13 nahuel     it works identically as barcodes, but they're not barcodes :)
15:14 nahuel     in usa you don't use inventory numbers?
15:14 gmcharlt   some libraries do, but it's relatively rare
15:14 gmcharlt   most just use the barcode as the unique ID
15:15 nahuel     in france barcode is different as inventory
15:15 gmcharlt   I'm curious, why have two unique identifiers for items?
15:16 nahuel     yes :)
15:16 nahuel     frenchy style
15:16 gmcharlt   accident of history, I guess :)
15:16 nahuel     don't know, i think paul or hdl will know more about the story
15:16 gmcharlt   in any event, an inventory number sounds like just another item attribute
15:16 nahuel     else, do you have any idea how we can implement this, without having to create a new index in zebra ?
15:18 gmcharlt   well for HEAD, such a field should have a new index
15:19 nahuel     yes, but how to manage autoincrementation?
15:20 jwagner    Can you do something with a table value for autoincrementing?  Read current value, add one, write new value?
15:20 nahuel     yes :)
15:20 nahuel     but which table ? :)
15:21 gmcharlt   generalize the item barcode incrementing code
15:21 nahuel     add a field in "items" table ?
15:21 gmcharlt   adding a fields to items is the default solution
15:21 gmcharlt   I'm tempted to suggest creating a new item_identifiers table, but that may be overkill
15:22 jwagner    It sounds like this would be pretty specialized use -- not relevant to a lot of sites.  I don't know the "sense of the community" yet on adding new tables versus expanding standard ones for limited use things like this.
15:22 gmcharlt   well, that depends
15:22 gmcharlt   it's usually quicker to just add another column
15:23 gmcharlt   but putting identifiers in a separate table would add more flexibility at cost of taking longer to implement
15:23 jwagner    As I understand the process, if you alter the table structure you record that so that the next upgrade would make the change automatically on new sites.  Correct?  That should be pretty much invisible to sites.
15:24 gmcharlt   yeah, but that also applies to new tables
15:25 jwagner    Six of one, half-dozen of the other....
15:25 kf         hey there, german academic libraries need inventory numbers too
15:25 kf         its by law
15:25 gmcharlt   it may be debatable whether this would be a limited use feature, actually - sure, not many US libraries would use it, but if it's common in Franc,e, and perhaps other Continental libraries,
15:25 gmcharlt   that's still a lot of libraries
15:25 nahuel     well :)
15:25 nahuel     kf, oh yes ! that's why !
15:25 nahuel     :)
15:25 kf         i used 952$i
15:25 gmcharlt   and I hear kf chiming in ;)
15:25 kf         but its not mapped to item yet
15:25 nahuel     legal reason for inventory number
15:25 jwagner    Yes.  Are the French & German requirements the same?
15:26 nahuel     jwagner, not really :)
15:26 kf         sorry, but its an important topic we discussed here too
15:26 kf         just came back to office and started reading
15:27 jwagner    If they have different requirements, maybe designing a new table to accomodate both would work best?
15:27 kf         its by item, additional two barcode, hopefully unique (if there were no mistakes in the past)
15:27 nahuel     jwagner, hmm or add a field in items
15:27 gmcharlt   any subfields defined in the MARC framework for the items tag that are not mapped to an items column
15:27 kf         the libraries will also need in inventory book, all items, deleted marked as deleted with date and so on
15:27 gmcharlt   do get automatically sent to items.more_subfields_xml
15:28 gmcharlt   and are thus available for item editing and Zebra searching
15:28 gmcharlt   that's how kf's 952$i works
15:29 nahuel     hmmm
15:29 kf         gmcharlt: i tried linking to more_subfields_xml but got strange output, nice to know how it works now :)
15:29 nahuel     but generally they're autoincremented fields
15:29 gmcharlt   auto increment could be done with a cataloging plugin, though of course you'd want to avoid a query that scans each item in the DB to look for the next value
15:29 nahuel     if the field content is only in xml and zebra
15:29 nahuel     how can we easily autoincrement it ? :)
15:30 nahuel     gmcharlt, i'm writing it
15:30 kf         i thought about changing barcode.pl plugin for inventory numbers, they often look like 2009/1 (annual barcode version)
15:30 nahuel     but we were asking where we must stock it
15:30 gmcharlt   I'd be inclined to add a new column to the items table, and possibly index it
15:30 gmcharlt   particularly if those inventory numbers are meant to be used in reports
15:30 nahuel     gmcharlt, ok so we can add a new column ?
15:30 gmcharlt   sure, I have no objection to that
15:30 nahuel     gmcharlt, they should be used in acquisition module too
15:31 gmcharlt   in which case there could be times you would want to use SQL to look up an inventory number
15:31 gmcharlt   so having it mapped to a new column would enable that
15:31 kf         so for reports you need a column in items? i thought i could solve the inventory book with reports
15:31 gmcharlt   one question - does anybody assign *two* or more inventory numbers per items
15:32 kf         nahuel: acquisition + inventory number ++
15:32 gmcharlt   ?
15:32 nahuel     well, for the moment mysql 5.1 is not in stable linux distro, we cannot made this in other way
15:32 kf         no
15:32 nahuel     in mysql 5.1 we can make xpath in sql queries
15:32 kf         but sometimes there is only one inventory number, for examlpe for all issues of an serial in a year
15:32 nahuel     gmcharlt, only one inventory number
15:32 gmcharlt   right, but that has to be more expensive that an index on a column
15:32 kf         but not more than one inventory number per item
15:33 nahuel     gmcharlt, of course :)
15:34 gmcharlt   main thing is that since the barcode autoincrement and inventory autoincrement code wouild be doing similar things, but perhaps with different templates
15:34 kf         i think an new column would be a great solution, and possibilty to add acquisitin numbers in serials and acquisition
15:34 gmcharlt   should be implemented with the same code
15:34 nahuel     gmcharlt, differents templates and uses
15:34 nahuel     gmcharlt, yes
15:36 nahuel     gmcharlt, well, so you think I can add a new column in items ?
15:36 gmcharlt   items.inventory_number ++
15:37 nahuel     ok great i'll do this :)
15:37 nahuel     and try to make some "generic" code for autobarcode and autoinventorynumber
15:38 gmcharlt   check with atz - I know he has some opinions on the autobarcode code
15:38 kf         items.inventory_number üü
15:38 kf         ++
15:38 nahuel     ok
15:38 atz        everything but incremental should die.
15:38 kf         nahuel, do frech libraries also need an inventory book?
15:38 atz        that's my opinion.
15:38 nahuel     atz, die ?
15:38 kf         to keep track about deleted items?
15:38 atz        be deleted and cease to exist.
15:38 nahuel     kf, what do you mean by "inventory book" ?
15:39 nahuel     kf, oh yes
15:39 nahuel     kf, of course
15:39 nahuel     atz, what do you mean ?
15:39 atz        the barcode is a *machine* identifier.  it should not include any human-readable semantic ANYTHING
15:40 nahuel     inventory number are not "human-readable"
15:40 atz        the main problem was that people will turn off/on autobarcode settings
15:40 kf         nahuel: when migrating it should be possible to import old accession_numbers, they sometimes look different over time, for example 90/234 and 2001/12
15:41 atz        and incremental setting works fine... until you have some crap from another setting in the DB
15:41 nahuel     atz, yes, we should improve this feature
15:41 atz        then incremental breaks because it can't do  "MAIN200807++"
15:41 nahuel     to have something like a "sequence" table
15:42 atz        i don't mind if you want to do some kind of automatic generation w/ another field though
15:42 kf         i saw something like that in another system, you could also define a prefix and a suffix for numbers there, and an icremental part
15:44 nahuel     yep i'll see
15:44 atz        yeah, the thing is that I can always define a different standard in the same namespace
15:44 nahuel     i'll make an autoincrementation function
15:44 nahuel     that take some "model"
15:46 nahuel     thanks atz gmcharlt and kf  :)
15:46 nahuel     not it's time to code :)
15:46 nahuel     s/not/now/
15:46 gmcharlt   have fun
15:46 nahuel     just another question
15:46 nahuel     where is used "greybox" which is present in koha-tmpl
15:47 gmcharlt   used in a couple places to display a MARC record in a floating div
15:47 ryan_      nahuel: it was used in marc preview in z39.50 search
15:47 nahuel     ok, but no more used ?
15:48 gmcharlt   manage-marc-import, also for bib preview
15:48 gmcharlt   why do you ask?
15:48 nahuel     because we just see it, and never see some code that use it
15:49 gmcharlt   well, it is used
15:49 gmcharlt   actually, I'd like to see some more use of it, to cut down on the number of popup windows in the intranet
15:49 nahuel     gmcharlt, i'm agree with you :)
15:50 nahuel     popup are... bad
15:50 kf         g
15:53 nahuel     atz, where should I implemente the inventory number generator ?
15:53 nahuel     I see there is a C4::Barcode
15:53 atz        nahuel: that's not really used by anything
15:53 atz        (last I checked anyway)
15:55 atz        it is what I intended to be a replacement for the existing code
15:55 nahuel     ho ok
15:55 nahuel     you're right
15:55 atz        it is better than what we have now... and more modular/extensible...
15:56 nahuel     yes it's what I see
15:57 nahuel     But How to make it generic for inventory too
15:57 nahuel     It should be named differently
15:57 gmcharlt   build on the code, and rename?
15:57 nahuel     CodeGenerator
15:57 atz        nahuel: yeah, that would make sense
15:58 gmcharlt   SequenceGenerator
15:58 atz        better name ^^
15:58 nahuel     yep :)
15:58 nahuel     ok well I'll do this
16:03 gmcharlt   nahuel++
16:03 nahuel     hehe
16:04 atz        nahuel: the perldoc explains how to add a subclass
16:04 nahuel     ok, i'll follow the model, (and rename it)
16:04 atz        sounds good
16:13 kf         nahuel ++
16:15 atz        the number of resources on CCL is incredibly small
16:15 atz        i can't even find a book on Amazon that has more than an academic discussion of it... and even those are from the 90's!
16:16 kf         leaving work now, bye #koha :)
16:16 atz        ttyl kf
16:16 atz        gmcharlt: I get how to build things with the numeric representation...
16:17 atz        but how do I get the defined word/terms into the query?
16:17 gmcharlt   CCL is more of a convention than a formal standard
16:18 gmcharlt   regarding your question, are you asking how C4::Search constructs queries to send to Zebra?
16:18 atz        gmcharlt: actually there is an corresponding ISO spec
16:19 gmcharlt   which nobody follows precisely
16:19 atz        hey, welcome to the world of library standards
16:19 atz        "not really about standardization after all"
16:20 atz        i want to query so that zebra "knows" i'm targetting a numeric field
16:20 atz        w/o having to put it in-line in the query
16:20 atz        i changed the ccl.properties definition for "notforloan"
16:20 atz        and added the info that it is a numeric field (because it is)
16:21 atz        but it still strips "-1" as the search term down to "1" unless I add 4=109 to the query itself
16:22 gmcharlt   notforloan 1=8008 4=109
16:22 gmcharlt   like you did should work
16:23 gmcharlt   stupid question time: did you change the copy of ccl.properties in the Koha run directory that zebrasrv is actually using?
16:23 gmcharlt   or just the copy in your git clone
16:23 atz        hmm... good question.  i better check
16:27 atz        interesting... there are a few updates I need to pull in from the git version apparently
16:31 atz        ok, same results
16:32 gmcharlt   what RPN query is actually getting sent?
16:33 atz        i'll try whatever...
16:33 atz        f @attr 1=notforloan -1
16:33 atz        for example
16:33 gmcharlt   no, I meant what query the zebrasrv showing that it's receiving
16:33 atz        SearchResult-1: term=1 cnt=0
16:34 atz        the "term" is changed
18:00 atz        gmcharlt:   the query: f @attr 1=notforloan -1
18:01 atz        is received in the zebra log as: Search biblios OK 0 1 1+0 RPN @attrset Bib-1 @attr "1=notforloan" -1
18:02 atz        but the yaz-client response still reads:  SearchResult-1: term=1 cnt=0
18:24 gmcharlt   atz: may be a case where just trying the OPAC search after making that change to ccl.properties is sufficient
18:24 gmcharlt   http://gmc.dev.kohalibrary.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-search.pl?q=ccl=onorder:-1
18:25 gmcharlt   or rather
18:25 gmcharlt   http://gmc.dev.kohalibrary.com/cgi-bin/koha/opac-search.pl?q=ccl=notforloan:-1
18:36 gmcharlt   that's the idea
18:36 gmcharlt   atz: just the ccl.properties change by itself works for me
18:40 atz        gmcharlt: ok, must be an issue w/ getting my -1 properties updated into the index then... rebuilding
18:49 atz        wow... sync_items_in_marc_bib.pl modified 503 bibs
18:54 atz        gmcharlt: great, i'll submit the patch
19:01 chris      morning
19:02 imp        moin
19:03 chris      http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=activities
19:03 chris      hotel will shuttle us to a baseball game for anyone who is interested :)
19:04 atz        chris: sounds fun
19:07 jwagner    Chris, I'm a big baseball fan -- I'd be interested.
19:08 chris      ive never seen baseball live, only bits and pieces on the tv
19:08 chris      so im looking forward to it
19:08 chris      so ill be expecting people to tell me what the heck is going on :)
19:09 atz        chris: it's like a 90-degree arc of cricket...
19:09 jwagner    You can _see_ the game better on TV (camera closeups etc.), but nothing beats actually being in the ballpark.  We'll educate you :-)
19:09 SelfishMan mmm...nasty stadium food
19:09 jwagner    I've had to try to explain things to my nieces, like the hand signals and baserunning moves.  I know perfectly well what's going on, but darned if I can put it into words.
19:10 mason      morning all
20:05 chris      sorry got distracted by work
20:05 chris      ahh cool
21:43 brendan    chris - I will definitely be excited to help you understand the game -- I owe you for the cricket education I'm getting...
21:43 brendan    ;)
21:44 brendan    chris -- somethings will transfer nice from ckricet
22:14 chris      cool
22:38 chris      i hate printers
22:38 imp        .oO(always the same with printers - if you really need them, they may behave quite strange)
22:39 chris      yep
22:40 slef       I mean label-print-pdf.pl with  $printingtype eq 'PATCRD'
00:55 mason      im futzing with slip-printer stuff over here too..
00:57 mason      hooking up the commented-out network-printing  and cookies stuff
00:58 mason      i'll hopefully work out a way to wrap it in a 'basic|networked' printing syspref
00:59 chris      awesome
01:01 mason      looks like the old 1yr-expiry printercookie - is replaced with a X-mins cgisession cookie
01:02 mason      which may turn a librarian postal
01:02 chris      *nod*
01:03 chris      yeah that stuff all got ripped out, because people dont understand how to set up a networked printer and print queues
01:03 chris      or something .. i forget
01:04 mason      yeah, looks like it..
01:05 mason      home-user/librarian != sys-admin
01:07 mason      but still , the old code was pretty good for proper 'enterprise-capable' slip-printing
01:07 chris      yep, just need to syspref it like you say
03:29 Amit       hi chris, mason, brendan
03:29 Amit       chris: what about match ;)
04:33 Owner      hey Amit
05:11 Amit       hi greenmang0
05:12 brendan    hey Amit --
05:13 Amit       hi brendan
05:13 brendan    what's the score for the match at now? or is it over
05:37 chris      nope 2 more days
05:38 chris      well maybe jut one more
05:38 chris      india all out for 520
05:38 chris      nz 75/3
05:49 greenmang0 Amit:
05:51 Amit       hi chris
05:51 Amit       brendan india is in good position
07:06 brendan    ohh...  india is in a good position.
07:06 chris      yep, i would be very very suprised if india dont win
07:10 Amit       right chris
07:10 Amit       !!!
07:10 chris      id be very suprised if they dont win all the tests actually
07:24 chris      hi nicomo
07:24 nicomo     hi chris
07:26 chris      http://www.calyx.net.au/2009/03/scis-bibliographic-records-seamlessly-imported-to-koha/
07:29 Amit       hi nicomo
07:29 nicomo     hi Amit
08:07 Amit       hi kf
08:08 kf         hi Amit
09:45 Amit       hi greenmang0 ;)
09:45 greenmang0 Amit: hello
09:46 hdl_laptop hi Amit greenmang0
09:46 greenmang0 hdl_laptop:
09:46 Amit       hi hdl
09:47 Amit       hi kivutar
09:48 Kivutar    hi Amit
09:53 Amit       greenmang0 r u from india
09:55 greenmang0 you have asked this question to me few days back
09:55 greenmang0 Amit: i think you doubt my nationality
09:56 greenmang0 Amit: yes i am an indian
09:56 Amit       no
09:56 greenmang0 :P
09:56 Amit       i m just asking only
09:56 Amit       ;)