Time  Nick       Message
17:21 ricardo    gmcharlt: Thanks Galen!  :)
17:39 thd        nengard: check your email for a message with the subject line "using open source" in answer to your question
17:39 nengard    thd was just wondering what the heck that was ;) I've actually read that before.  Thanks for sending it
17:59 thd        I made some custom authorities frameworks for LibLime.  I do not see them in git.  What should I do about updating them for the latest MARC update, that is, where should they go?
18:00 gmcharlt   thd: installer/data/mysql/en/marcflavour/marc21/mandatory/authorities_normal_marc21.sql  , I would think
18:01 gmcharlt   per comments in header of that file, that is a version that you edited for LL
18:03 ricardo    Time to go home. Take care erveryone!  :)
18:09 thd        gmcharlt: that is the default with the full standard, the others were two progressively smaller subsets.  Neither of them were exceptionally small so that they would not miss anything important.
18:10 thd        ryan: are you here>
18:10 gmcharlt   ok, then it's a question for ryan or kados: where did the subsets go?
18:10 kados      hmmm, subsets?
18:12 kados      thd: there have been changes to both authority and bib frameworks since you last contributed
18:12 kados      thd: some patches to bugs in them ...
18:12 thd        kados: I know: I am working from the git version and I made a diff
18:13 thd        ryan should know about the subsets of the authorities framework.  Is he around?
18:13 kados      thd: one concern I have about the current implementation of frameworks is that there is no mechanism to update frameworks on live systems
18:14 kados      ie, post-installation
18:14 kados      s/update/auto-update/
18:14 thd        kados: drop the table and repopulate ;)
18:14 thd        s/table/tables/
18:14 kados      thd: doesn't work if they've made local changes
18:15 thd        kados: that requires a sophisticated solution
18:15 kados      yep
18:15 thd        kados: that could be solved with two or three days thinking
18:16 thd        ... and investigating.  yet, who has that much time at this point.
18:16 thd        ?
18:16 gmcharlt   thd, kados: another thing for 3.2 or 3.4, perhaps - frameworks should distinguish between standard, "app profile" a la OCLC's version, local fields, and decisions about which fields to display in a particular format view
18:17 kados      *nod*
18:18 thd        gmcharlt: ultimately we need a more flexible model for the frameworks.  Updating the variants with many changes is not very time efficient.
18:18 gmcharlt   thd: agreed
18:18 gmcharlt   also, now that LC's MARC website is providing the MARC21 format defines in something half-way parseable, drawing from that could be automated
18:19 kados      definitely
18:19 thd        gmcharlt: the problem is that only has the current LC standard which is vastly under-inclusive for the real world
18:21 thd        there are records at some libraries which still have data in fields which were made obsolete when AACR2 was introduced in 1978
18:22 thd        the current LC standard maybe OK for creating a new original record but not for interpreting existing records in the world
18:22 gmcharlt   thd: ok, but automating the current version is a start, and it would actually be useful to have a mode that indicates that your records have obsolete fields
18:24 thd        gmcharlt: I have noted all obsolete fields and subfields which only appear if already populated with the notation [OBSOLETE]
18:25 gmcharlt   thd: that's good for display, but an enhancement framework structure might actually tie some functionality to those fields
18:25 gmcharlt   e.g., "warning, warning, AACR1 in use"
18:25 thd        gmcharlt: In addition to obsolete there are widespread non-LC conventions in use at OCLC, etc.
18:27 thd        gmcharlt: yes, we need an enhancement with better functionality and where framework variants can be mere diffs
18:29 thd        soon we will have warning AACR2 in use :)
18:31 gmcharlt   thd: hehe - shouldn't that be "RDA in use, despair all ye who enter here"?
18:32 thd        The RDA MARC working group proposed to reuse 011 which was made obsolete in 1992 and I think the MARBI committee roundly rejected them
18:33 gmcharlt   good - I was not happy that there were proposals to reuse tag numbers
18:34 atz        thd: sounds like OO/inheritance approach to frameworks
18:34 thd        Despair especially much if you cannot afford to subscribe and there is no one time purchase price for a hard copy version
18:34 atz        (variants as diffs_
18:35 thd        atz: the problem is that even with clever use of regular expressions copying changes into every framework variation takes all day.
18:36 atz        yeah, it must
18:36 gmcharlt   thd: and loud complaining if we can't republish enough of the RDA spec to set up MARC frameworks (and presumably their RDF equivalents in the future)
18:40 thd        gmcharlt: I intend to suggest on the RDA-L list that the co-publishers should look into funding publication in a manner similar to the work of wc3.org .  Compare the market success of library standards to web standards.
18:40 gmcharlt   thd: good idea.  I would personally endorse that.
18:41 atz        rch: added /home/ican/ican_sip_users.sql
18:42 kados      atz: wrong channel ? :-)
18:42 thd        s/wc3/w3c/
18:42 atz        kados: true... i've got code4lib up today and it's throwing off my sense of tab-geography
18:43 thd        gmcharlt: RDF implementations are not quite ready for MARC but we need to make them ready.
18:44 thd        gmcharlt: Ed Summers LCSH.info is woefully inadequate because of the limitations of SKOS
18:46 kados      hdl: you still around?
18:47 thd        gmcharlt: DCMI must have a commitment to solving those issues because they have committed to mapping RDA/MARC in RDF.
18:47 kados      paul: ?
18:47 thd        ryan ?
18:48 ryan       hi thd
18:48 thd        hello ryan
18:49 thd        ryan: I have been updating frameworks to the latest MARC update and want to know what to do about the subsets of the authorities frameworks which I made for you
18:49 thd        ryan: I think they may never have been put in git because kados never chose a place for them
18:50 ryan       thd: if they  are up to date, would be great if you could commit them
18:50 ryan       thd: do you see any reason not to include them in 3.0 ?
18:50 thd        ryan: maybe tonight but where would I put them?
18:51 kados      thd: these are optional marc21 authorities frameworks?
18:51 thd        kados: yes
18:52 kados      thd: if they compliment rather than supercede the existing marc21 authorities frameworks, they belong in:
18:52 kados       installer/data/mysql/en/marcflavour/marc21/optional/
18:52 ryan       nstaller/data/mysql/en/marcflavour/marc21/optional
18:52 ryan       yeah, what he said
18:53 kados      for 3.2 we may want to consider a mechanism for selecting one of many optional mandatory frameworks
18:53 kados      if that makes sense
18:53 thd        kados: has the issue of visibility using the hidden column been fixed for the authorities record editor
18:53 thd        ?
18:53 kados      thd: I'm not sure
18:53 kados      thd: check bugzilla?
18:54 thd        kados: was such a bug filed or do you mean file then check?
18:55 kados      thd: check for a bug(I think there was one)
18:55 kados      if there wasn't, please file one if the problem still exists
18:55 kados      (feel free to check on koha.liblime.com
18:56 thd        kados: in relation to bugs, are you going to announce a new release date or announce that a date will be fixed when the lingering important bugs have been fixed along with any newly reported important bugs?
18:57 kados      thd: good question
18:57 kados      thd: we really need to get this release out
18:57 kados      thd: so we can start working on 3.2
18:58 thd        kados: yet, it seems much less polished than 2.2.X for all its advances.
18:58 kados      thd: are you serious?
18:58 kados      thd: I completely disagree :-)
18:58 kados      thd: it's much more polished than a koha release has ever been, in so many ways
18:59 thd        kados: yes I ma very serious about some user interface issues which I never saw on late versions of 2.2.X
18:59 ryan       thd: you are referring above to bug 2206 ?  yes, it's been fixed.
18:59 kados      i agree we have a lot of improvements that could be made, but I really don't think you can compare it to a 2.2.x release
18:59 atz        thd: there are bugs, but the install process alone is so much better than 2.2
19:00 kados      2.2.9 has a lot more blocker bugs IMO than 3.0RC1
19:01 thd        kados: I mean things like when I tab through the fields for the Biblios record editor I get stuck and tab stops working.
19:02 thd        kados: Many issues relating to using the keyboard do not work as well therefore it takes much longer to do real work.
19:03 thd        ryan: 2206 was not the issue for controlling subfield visibility in the authorities record editor using the authorities frameworks.
19:04 ccatalfo   thd: are you experiencing this tabbing issue in the Biblios editor in any particular circumstances?  I'm aware that tabbing is not working from authority controlled fields.  Is that what you've seen?
19:05 ryan       thd: you are referring to the standard MARC editor, right?  not Biblios ?
19:05 thd        ccatalfo: I was hoping that it was masking some function for the authority controlled fields.
19:06 ccatalfo   thd: just to clarify, you do mean the Biblios editor, not the cataloging editor in Koha?
19:06 thd        ryan: I think there are user interface problems for doing real work in all of the record editors which did not exist in 2.2.X
19:08 thd        ccatalfo: I do not get stuck on the authority controlled fields in the semantically labelled editor.  I get stuck elsewhere in that editor but I expect less productivity from that editor in some ways.
19:09 thd        ccatalfo: so yes, I was addressing you about the Biblios record editor.
19:09 ccatalfo   thd: ok, thanks.  Are there other places tab isn't working, then?  Or it the authority controlled fields?
19:10 thd        ccatalfo: I noticed the authority controlled fields but did not test extensively.
19:10 ccatalfo   thd: ok, good to know.
19:11 thd        ccatalfo: Is the authority controlled field block there as some anchor for a nifty authorised value filling feature which has not yet been implemented?
19:13 ccatalfo   thd: basically, yes.  It's meant to query an sru authorities server for authorized values for that field.  The querying part is implemented but we don't have it pointing at a valid server at the moment (on koha.liblime.com)
19:14 thd        ccatalfo: Yet I should be able to move quickly through the field even if I do not want to change a particular authorised value or if my connection is down, etc.
19:15 ccatalfo   thd: you're right - that tab not working is definitely a defect
19:15 ccatalfo   thd: it ought to tab right through it even thought it is an ajax dropdown
19:18 thd        ccatalfo: Also have you seen that the latest MARC 21 update provides an official place to put an authority record control number such as 650 ## $0 (DLC) sh1356358 $a some subject ?
19:20 ccatalfo   thd: no, I had not seen that.  that's very good to know.  So I can pull in that authority control number as well as the text, and not display the $0...
19:20 ccatalfo   am i correct in remembering that koha is using a different subfield for linking, $9?
19:22 thd        ccatalfo: Such nifty things were added for MAB2 format integration with MARC 21 for Germany and Austria
19:23 thd        ccatalfo: You should still use $9 for Koha internally with the internal control number so the Koha code will use the authority correctly.
19:24 thd        ccatalfo: However, if you also use $0 we can update authorised values using the LCCN from the NACO and SACO database.
19:27 ccatalfo   thd: thanks, this is all good information.  FYI, at the moment, Biblios does not do any linking with koha $9.  So it's not suitable for authority work within koha as things stand now.  But, these are good things to keep in mind when we do implement better authority integration.
19:27 thd        ... provided we have real authority records which have an LCCN or other number from a standards body
19:29 ccatalfo   is the koha's $9 the control number from the authority record?  so that $0 would be the same as $9?
19:30 gmcharlt   thd: re $0, has anybody come up with a decent proposal to handle subject headings that are linked to one main authority record and N subdivision records?
19:32 thd        ccatalfo: At French Koha libraries $9 taken from the Koha record ID and they build primitive authority records in most cases internally from existing values in authority controlled fields.
19:33 thd        gmcharlt: $0 is repeatable but under review for how well that works.
19:34 thd        gmcharlt: The UNIMARC equivalent $3 I discovered a week ago was made repeatable to conform to practise at French libraries for that very issue.
19:35 thd        gmcharlt: I asked that very question citing divergent practise on the MARC list and while no one answered on list I received a private reply from the LC member of MARBI that the issue needs studying.
19:37 thd        gmcharlt: http://listserv.loc.gov/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0806&L=marc&T=0&P=6868
19:40 thd        gmcharlt: German practise which I did not quote fully uses adjacent repeated fields instead of attempting to accommodate a complex expression in one subdivided field.
19:42 gmcharlt   thd: gotcha.  thanks
19:42 ccatalfo   if only we just put the linking control number in there instead of the text...would be so much easier...
19:44 thd        ccatalfo: The DC-RDA group is working on doing just that using URIs but we still have to be backwards compatible until the revolution comes
19:47 thd        ccatalfo: Also, the last MARBI meeting rejected all RDA working group proposals for using URIs for vocabulary such as relator terms specifying the role of an author as illustrator, editor, etc.
19:48 ccatalfo   thd: interesting
19:49 thd        ccatalfo: The conservative MARC people want textual strings, which are necessarily language specific, and make for poor cross-national record sharing.  However, the RDA working group proposal was technically deficient for accommodating both interests and deserved to fail.
19:59 kados      paul: do you know if hdl is available?
19:59 paul       hi kados.
20:00 kados      hi :-)
20:00 paul       nope. He's in holiday for 2 weeks
20:00 kados      paul: so I guess we won't see any serials patches then :-)
20:00 kados      ok, that answers that question
20:00 paul       right
20:00 kados      paul: have you seen the traffic on koha-devel about delaying 3.0 release?
20:01 kados      paul: it seems some people don't want me to release it with blocker/critical/major bugs
20:02 paul       yes, I've seen.
20:02 kados      thoughts?
20:03 paul       but my opinion is unchanged : we have delayed 3.0 really too too too much. and it start to be a real problem for us. + I strongly think we can continue debugguing for months or even years without releasing anything.
20:04 paul       so, I'd said : let's go with 3.0, and continue with 3.0.1, even if it's 1 month after 3.0.0
20:04 paul       + branch head for 3.2
20:06 paul       hehe... hdl_laptop seems to be unable to be in holidays ;-)
20:07 gmcharlt   that or the laptop is working, but hdl is still on vacation ;)
20:07 kados      hdl_laptop: are you really here?
20:13 davi       Trying to access the intranet.koha URL I get:
20:13 davi         nothing on the browser
20:14 davi       and the below error in logs:
20:14 davi         DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.language_subtag_registry' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Languages.pm line 178.
20:14 davi
20:15 davi       I can not execute the web install because when I access to  intranet.koha , that is to say 8080
20:16 hdl_laptop kados yes.
20:16 davi       I get such error with nothing on the browser.
20:16 hdl_laptop but on holidays.
20:16 paul       hdl_laptop: i've written that already to kados ;-)
20:16 kados      hdl_laptop: paul has confirmed, but I just wanted to check with you -- you will not have serials patches ready for 3.0, right?
20:17 davi       Can I execute some script to do the web installation?
20:17 hdl_laptop kados: I have sent some.
20:18 kados      davi: no, it has to be done via a web browser, but you could use lynx on the server if you only have command-line access to the server
20:18 kados      davi: that's almost like running a script ;-)
20:18 gmcharlt   hdl_laptop: are the subscription-add patches you sent me and ccatalfo potentially for 3.0, or do you think they'll need more work and should be for 3.2
20:18 gmcharlt   hdl_laptop: I haven't had a chance to look at them yet
20:18 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: honestly,
20:19 hdl_laptop i would have LOVED to get them ready for 3.0
20:19 hdl_laptop And would jquery and all the javascript stuff not be such a new thing for me,
20:19 hdl_laptop it would have been ready.
20:21 hdl_laptop But since it adds 2 tables, changes subscription table and add a new dependency (Roman)
20:21 hdl_laptop it may be safer.
20:21 chris      morning
20:22 paul       hi chris. time to go to bed for frenchies... (10:30PM)
20:22 gmcharlt   hi chris
20:22 davi       kados, lynx does not work neither. I am checking with    telnet localhost 8080
20:22 davi       # telnet localhost 8080
20:22 davi       Trying 127.0.0.1...
20:22 davi       Connected to localhost.
20:22 davi       Escape character is '^]'.
20:22 davi       GET /
20:22 davi       Connection closed by foreign host.
20:22 kados      davi: maybe an issue with your apache conf?
20:22 chris      goodnight paul
20:22 chris      and hdl
20:23 davi          Note: opac-main.pl get 90% CPU
20:23 davi       kados, I am going to check the apache conf. Thanks
20:24 hdl_laptop kados : I sent some patches on Friday, which really fix some broken things.
20:24 thd        kados paul: If you would be OK releasing 3.0.1 in a month I would be understanding of your need to release 3.0 long ago and say that it is OK to release now or a week from now.
20:25 paul       (sorry, tired & late here)
20:25 thd        paul: I understand your need to release 3.0 now
20:27 thd        paul: If you release 3.0 now and release 3.0.1 in a month, then I think releasing 3,0 now or within a week is good.
20:28 thd        paul: If 3.0.1 would take three months to issue on some schedule, then I think that you should wait for some more bug fixes before releasing 3.0.
20:30 thd        paul kados: When I made the start of an argument like that earlier, slef and owen did not think that standards should be lowered to satisfy business needs.
20:30 paul       thd: that's exactly the kind of things that will make koha 3.0 NEVER be released... after standard, we will find something else to improve, then something else, then ...
20:31 paul       many project died from "search for perfection"
20:31 kados      paul: examples?
20:31 chris      i think we need to get back to the release early release often mantra
20:31 paul       I don't speak as a business man here.
20:31 paul       chris: ++
20:31 chris      heck apache 2.0 is at .63
20:31 chris      and 2.2 is at .9 already
20:31 thd        paul: I agree with you
20:31 paul       look at kde 4 !
20:31 gmcharlt   if we do a bugfix 3.0.1 in a month's time, that might be managable, but it will give us at least one complicated DB schema change to work through, if we consider the serials bugs that hdl is working on to be blockers that should be fixed for 3.0.1
20:31 paul       it has been released stable, and it was really unuseable !
20:32 kados      chris: did apache release a product with blocker bugs?
20:32 chris      yes
20:32 thd        paul: my only worry is that once 3.0 is released 3.0.1 would not come out for months
20:32 kados      blockers? really? like 'virtual hosts don't work', something that major?
20:32 davi       kados, Accessing to the koha:8080 via lynx I have got:
20:32 davi         production mode - trapped fatal error
20:32 chris      yep, they have dev branches and they release from them
20:33 kados      chris: ahh, well we've done releases too by that metric
20:33 chris      well only in the last few months
20:33 thd        paul: I think that you should issue many minor releases quickly until the serious bugs have been fixed.
20:33 chris      there was years in between
20:33 kados      chris: but I seriously doubt they would have released stable versions of apache with blocker bugs
20:33 paul       kados: except 2297, all other blo are "long time" blo bugs, that are a problem only in some circumstances.
20:33 davi       kados, mainpage.pl and install.pl was executed before I got such error at lynx
20:33 paul       for example ':' character blocks search
20:33 paul       or circulation reports too big
20:34 gmcharlt   paul: well, as some larger and/or more sophisticated libraries adopt Koha, those bugs become more critical
20:34 paul       some other one just need a warning in release notes to be workarounded, for example : 2178
20:34 thd        normalise the search query and you solve that bug quickly for some practical purpose even if you have not traced it
20:35 davi       kados, You were right about my Apache configuration was broken.
20:35 davi       kados, I get "production mode - trapped fatal error" after fixing the Apache configuration. Now it is better but do not work yet.
20:35 kados      davi: what's the rest of the error?
20:35 kados      davi: anything in the apache logs?
20:35 paul       gmcharlt: I agree. It don't mean those bugs must be ignored. Just that they should not prevent us from releasing.
20:36 thd        paul kados: so release and keep the pace of fixing the serious bugs and bugs which scare librarians
20:37 paul       OF COURSE !
20:37 paul       when I was 2.2RM, I used to release a subversion once every quarter.
20:37 paul       that was my goal, and I succeded to do it !
20:37 thd        paul kados: In the real world no one trust an X.0 release of anything anyways.
20:37 kados      thd: *nod*
20:37 paul       thd++
20:38 kados      paul++ for releasing on schedule
20:38 gmcharlt   thd: that's no excuse, though
20:38 thd        paul: I think that 1 quarter is too long to wait for 3.0.1 though.
20:38 paul       to continue feedback with my experience : the DB stabilisation is the 1st thing to do to get a stable software
20:38 paul       thd: I agree.
20:39 gmcharlt   for 3.2, I'm happy releasing checkpoints releases more often
20:39 paul       thd: once a quarter is OK once it's really stable
20:39 paul       so, the rule is :
20:39 gmcharlt   but there's a question: how long do we want to keep up 3.0.x?
20:39 thd        exactly I think paul just said it perfectly
20:39 kados      because I think it will be too much overhead for this community
20:40 paul       I agree to have BibLibre take that role.
20:40 thd        kados: you want to go directly to 3.2 from 3.0 with only 3.1 between them?
20:40 gmcharlt   paul: which role? 3.0 maintainer?
20:40 paul       yep
20:41 kados      I sincerely hope that as we move forward as a community we not hide our heads in the sand about major issues like this
20:42 chris      are you suggesting we are now?
20:42 kados      chris: yep :-)
20:42 paul       yes, but is you want to move forward as a community, you should not ignore other's position ?  (sorry to be rude)
20:42 kados      I think there's a lot of pressure to release software that's not ready
20:42 chris      ah well, your entitled to your opinion
20:42 thd        The caveats should be noted prominently without scaring people just so they do not get the wrong idea and assume the claim is that all works perfectly and never look again when they find that it does not.
20:42 kados      as can be seen on the list traffic
20:42 kados      chris: not just my opinion anymore :-) others on-list have expressed similar sentiments
20:43 atz        if the warnings were there in the interface that might matter
20:43 atz        otherwise everybody will expect it to work
20:43 kados      thd: true, that may be what we have to do for 3.0
20:43 kados      atz: *nod*
20:43 atz        regardless of what INSTALL says
20:43 paul       mmm... kados, i've seen only 2 ppl expressing their opinion. I could list 10 french libraries that want 3.0 now...
20:43 paul       + when releasing you can express the limits of the release & the caveats.
20:43 davi       kados,  (1) I execute   lynx http://localhost:8080   (2)  mainpage.pl and install.pl get CPU  (3)  lynx shows "production mode - trapped fatal error"
20:43 kados      paul: and I could list 100 US libraries that want 3.0 to be stable ;-)
20:43 thd        My concern is only too keep the good reputation of Koha.
20:43 kados      thd: *nod* ... mine too
20:44 kados      davi: no errors in the apache logs?
20:44 davi       kados, No error at /var/log/apache2/error.log  or at  koha-dev/var/log/koha-opac-error_log   !!!
20:44 paul       So, release, & specify what is know to be unstable or working poorly.
20:44 paul       that's better than not releasing imo
20:44 atz        right now I'm servicing client tickets for 3 reports in 3.0 that just break
20:44 thd        wait too long to release and you also loose reputation
20:44 paul       thd++
20:45 kados      davi: check the other koha log
20:45 atz        davi: your errors should be in the locations specified by your koha .conf file as ErrorLog
20:46 davi       koha-error_log
20:46 kados      davi: that's the one
20:47 davi         install.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.language_subtag_registry' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Languages.pm line 178.
20:47 davi         install.pl: Can't locate object method "generate_id" via package "CGI::Session::ID::" (perhaps you forgot to load "CGI::Session::ID::"?) at /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session.pm line 74.
20:47 kados      ahha, there's the culprit I bet
20:48 davi       source code bug   or   installation bug?
20:48 davi       Maybe I missed the installation of some Perl package?
20:49 davi       Let me try to install it
20:49 atz        looks like unpopulated code trying to make the serializer a variable?
20:49 paul       davi : there's a problem with CGI::Session package, that has been splitted recently by the package maintainer.
20:50 paul       you must also install another one, I don't remember which one, sorry (11PM in France... i'm tired)
20:50 atz        CGI::Session::yaml perhaps ?
20:50 paul       that one being a problem that could delay the release...
20:50 davi       thanks paul, and good night
20:51 paul       mc has more infos about that
20:51 atz        yeah, that one is not directly our fault, but a serious problem anyway
20:51 paul       yep
20:51 paul       that at least need some warnings in Release Notes !
20:51 thd        Anyways, I will have the MARC 21 frameworks up to date by tomorrow and I assume gmcharlt is fixing the unreported general data loss bug which had concerned me.
20:52 paul       really time to go to bed for me.
20:52 paul       I'll be back tomorrow afternoon (FR afternoon)
20:52 thd        good night paul
20:54 davi       Will work if I download and overwrite installing an specific version of the CGI::Session package?
20:55 atz        davi: it might
20:55 davi       I will ask  mc  tomorrow for the CGI::Session package version to install.
20:55 atz        like the slightly older version
20:56 davi       Shit!  I have already installed it from   http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/M/MA/MARKSTOS/CGI-Session-4.30.tar.gz
20:56 davi       as the Ubuntu guide advices
20:56 davi         http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=ubuntu_gutsy
21:02 davi       I have installed CGI::Session 4.30
21:02 davi       It is correct as documented at the Ubuntu installation guide.
21:03 davi
21:03 davi       The first error line I get at   koha-error_log  is:
21:03 davi         mainpage.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.auth_types' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Koha.pm line 340
21:03 davi       So maybe the source of the error is at another location
21:04 gmcharlt   davi: now that you have CGI::Session 4.30, there are a couple additional modules you can install from CPAN that shoudl complete things
21:05 gmcharlt   davi: one being CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml
21:05 davi       let me do it, thanks
21:06 kados      gmcharlt: the cgi-session issues alone probably need to be documented explicifly
21:06 kados      gmcharlt: shoudl we add notes to the installation docs?
21:06 gmcharlt   kados: agreed
21:06 gmcharlt   yes
21:07 kados      gmcharlt: so installation of CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml with version 4.30 fixes the issues, should we just require that now?
21:08 gmcharlt   yes, that would be a minimum
21:08 gmcharlt   there may be something more - lemme double-check quickly
21:13 ricardo    Hi all
21:17 kados      davi: did it work for ya?
21:17 kados      ricardo: hiya
21:17 ricardo    kados: Hi Joshua!  :)
21:17 davi       kados, I Qemu virtual machine is very slow :-)
21:18 davi       My*
21:18 davi       I report to all you with the result, after installing CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml
21:18 davi       I will*
21:20 ricardo    davi: That solved my CGI::Session problems for me (installing CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml is what I recommend in my Installation Tutorial of Koha 3 in openSUSE 11.0 at http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=opensuse_11.0
21:21 ricardo    kados: BTW - I'm reviewing that tutorial (and doing some minor changes) with a fresh installation of openSUSE 11.0 final (I'll use the latest Koha development version for it).
21:21 kados      ricardo++
21:21 ricardo    :)
21:23 ricardo    I'm guessing that I won't have the problem with the missing dependency for Algorithm::CheckDigits this time since MJ Ray promptly corrected that (so that section will probably be deleted from the wiki / INSTALL.opensuse file)...
21:23 davi       I take note of your guide ricardo!  Maybe I will move from Ubuntu to OpenSUSE
21:24 ricardo    davi: LOL! Well, I was not expecting my Guide to have an impact *that* big, eheh... But thanks, I will take that as a compliment  :)
21:24 davi       I am tiny :)
21:26 ricardo    davi: eheh
21:27 ricardo    On the other hand, I seem to recall hdl talking about some CGI::something::mysql  perl module that would be useful. I'll search the IRC logs for that now
21:30 davi       ricardo, You guide is a lot longer than the Ubuntu one at http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=ubuntu_gutsy
21:30 davi       Your*
21:31 ricardo    davi: True... I'm usually pretty detailed in my documentation (you might call it "boring"  ;-)
21:31 gmcharlt   ricardo: "complete" is a friendlier word ;)
21:31 ricardo    gmcharlt: Eheh... Thanks!  :)
21:33 ricardo    (I had one internal documentation that included ALL the output of CPAN Module installations, file extractions and such for Koha AND had some screenshots... that went over a thousand pages, believe it or not...)
21:33 davi       ricardo, It is lot of work but it is better when well detailed
21:34 ricardo    davi: Well, at least I appreciate detailed info that/when it is relevant  :)
21:35 davi       I get some failed tests when installing such package
21:35 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 64/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
21:35 davi       ...
21:36 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................dubious
21:36 davi               Test returned status 255 (wstat 65280, 0xff00)
21:36 davi       DIED. FAILED tests 84, 90, 92-101
21:36 davi       ...
21:36 ricardo    right
21:36 davi       Can be go on?
21:36 davi       Can I go on?
21:37 ricardo    davi: Try to install CGI::Session::ID::MD5 first (I think... let me check)
21:37 davi       ok, thanks
21:38 ricardo    Yep. At least, it has that name ->  CGI::Session::ID::MD5
21:40 ricardo    davi: Try to install that (from CPAN)...
21:41 davi       I have installed all the packages from CPAN
21:41 ricardo    BTW: In my tutorial I have these lines (that seem to have no bad consequences, but...):
21:41 davi           perl -MCPAN -e 'install Package::...'
21:41 ricardo    davi: Oh OK :)
21:41 ricardo    gmcharlt / kados (other):  in my tutorial I have these lines (that seem to have no bad consequences, but...):
21:41 davi       you must correct me, please
21:43 ricardo    "  t/Items.....................ok 2/28Use of uninitialized value $db_driver in concatenation (.) or string at /root/Koha/blib/PERL_MODULE_DIR/C4/Context.pm line 628.Can't connect to data source 'dbname=__DB_NAME__;host=__DB_HOST__;port=__DB_PORT__' because I can't work out what driver to use   "
21:43 ricardo    gmcharlt / kados: Is this really harmless.... or NOT?
21:43 gmcharlt   ricardo: it will, in fact, be going away due to a patch from acmoore
21:44 ricardo    gmcharlt: Ah great! Thanks for the feedback!  :)
21:44 ricardo    gmcharlt: Do you know if that patch has already been submitted & approved?
21:44 ricardo    davi: OK. Did you install CGI::Session::ID::MD5 already?
21:45 gmcharlt   ricardo: the patch moving the items test was just approved
21:46 davi       ricardo, My Qemu virtual machine is slow
21:46 ricardo    gmcharlt: Very nice... Thanks for the info. So I'll grab again that latest snapshot development version. That will also improve (and "ease up" a bit) my tutorial.
21:46 ricardo    davi: Hmmm.... Qemu runs under Linux or Windows?
21:46 davi       GNU/Linux
21:46 davi       Debian stable 'etch'
21:47 ricardo    davi: OK... I use VirtualBox in Windows (for running openSUSE 11.0) and it is reasonably light-weight (much lighter than VMware, at least). In Linux, I use Xen. I never tried Qemu, though
21:48 davi       ricardo, CGI::Session::ID::MD5    installed rightly. I am going now with  CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml  again.
21:48 ricardo    OK. Good luck!  :)
21:49 davi       ricardo, I will go with Xen when time allow me.
21:49 davi       Your positive comment re-force my intention to try Xen.
21:51 ricardo    davi: Well... Xen is included with SLES (SUSE Linux Enterprise Server), so that's what I ended up using  :)
21:51 ricardo    But yes, I like Xen
21:52 davi       I have and old AMD Athlon, so I think I have some problems to boot
21:52 davi       the Xen hipervisor
21:53 davi          with PAE or without PAE support.
21:53 ricardo    davi: Maybe... I don't have any info regarding that (I run it on a typical Intel Pentium 4 - *playing mandatory Intel advertising sound*  ;-)
21:54 davi
21:54 davi       Same error again:
21:54 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 64/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
21:54 davi       ...
21:54 davi       t/g4_mysql......................skipped
21:54 davi               all skipped: Couldn't establish connection with the MySQL server: Can't connect to data source '' because I can't work out what driver to use (it doesn't seem to contain a 'dbi:driver:' prefix and the DBI_DRIVER env var is not set) at t/g4_mysql.t line 44
21:54 davi
21:55 davi       The CGI::Session::ID::MD5 installation did not solve the CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml installation problem.
21:55 ricardo    davi: One user reported that he managed to solved that JSON problem by downloading CGI::Session and installing it directly (instead of using CPAN):
21:55 ricardo    http://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2008-May/013842.html
21:55 ricardo    See if that solves the problem for you
21:57 davi       I have already installed an specific version of CGI::Session
21:57 davi       I think the above error is different than the one exposed at such link.
21:58 davi       Maybe I should set the CGISESS_MYSQL_DSN  environment variables before starting the installation of CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml ?
21:58 davi       It reads:
21:58 ricardo    davi: Hmmm.... It is related - http://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2008-May/013815.html - but yes, it may be different
21:58 davi       The simplest method is to use the standard "DBI_DSN/DBI_USER/DBI_PASS"
21:58 davi       environment variables.
21:58 davi       Otherwise, you can set these variables:
21:59 ricardo    davi: CGISESS_MYSQL_DSN? First time I hear about that one
21:59 davi       OK, so not needed. thanks.
21:59 davi       So do you think  CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml  is actually needed?
22:00 gmcharlt   yes, the YAML serializer is required
22:00 davi       thanks
22:00 ricardo    davi: Try to install the YAML Perl module... Maybe Ubuntu has a package for that?
22:02 acmoore    announcing this again FYI: There's a news bot in #kohanews on freenode. It announces things like updates to git and bugzilla. I find it more convenient than using a RSS reader for those things. some developers may be intereseted in idling there. feel free to.
22:03 kados      acmoore: probably would make sense to announce this on koha-devel too
22:03 davi       That is the output of the installation:  http://rafb.net/p/jnik8F61.html
22:05 ricardo    davi: Reading... Yep, sounds familiar, all right. I think that when I got this, I ended up doing a "force install CGI::Session". No, I don't like it either but it seemed to solve it  :-/
22:05 ricardo    This is why I now install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml "instead" of "CGI::Session"
22:07 davi       Such paste is the output of CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml  not CGI::Session
22:07 davi       so, you advise force it?
22:07 davi         "force install CGI::Session"
22:07 davi       ?
22:07 davi
22:07 davi       I have located this Ubuntu package:   libyaml-perl - YAML Ain't Markup Language (tm)
22:08 davi       What do you think is better: install the Ubuntu package or "force install CGI::Session" ?
22:08 ricardo    davi: I would try the libyaml-perl path first
22:08 davi       thanks
22:13 davi
22:13 davi       not solved
22:13 davi       I get again:
22:13 ricardo    davi: Darn!  :(
22:13 davi         install.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.language_subtag_registry' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Languages.pm line 178
22:13 davi         install.pl: Can't locate CGI/Session/Serialize/yaml.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /build/kohaclone /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.8 /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.8 /usr/share/perl/5.8 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at (eval 15) line 3.
22:13 ricardo    davi:  Hmmm... But you don't get anymore the JSON error?
22:13 ricardo    davi: Try now to install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml
22:14 davi       I just installed the  Ubuntu package
22:14 davi       I have not tryed it install it form CPAN again
22:14 ricardo    davi:  I'm guessing the libyaml-perl is for the YAML::Syck package, but I may be wrong. Let me see
22:14 davi       I do not know if besides the libyaml-perl ubuntu package it is needed some other one
22:15 davi       I have:
22:15 davi         libyaml-perl - YAML Ain't Markup Language (tm)
22:15 davi         libyaml-syck-perl - Fast, lightweight YAML loader and dumper
22:15 davi         libyaml-tiny-perl - Read/Write YAML files with as little code as possible
22:15 davi       no more YAML perl packages.
22:15 davi
22:16 ricardo    davi: I would install also the libyaml-syck-perl package
22:16 davi       So, was it right and enough the installation of the libyaml-perl one?
22:16 davi       ok, thanks
22:17 ricardo    davi:  Just checked http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/libyaml-perl  - it seems to install the YAML Perl Package (and not CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml). So I guess that after installing libyaml-perl and libyaml-syck-perl, it's perfectly OK to install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml
22:18 davi       Let me try to install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml now
22:18 ricardo    OK. Good luck
22:19 davi         perl -MCPAN -e 'install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml'
22:20 ricardo    davi: Yep, that's the correct line. You do realize that you also have to paste it in the Linux shell, don't you?  ;-)
22:21 davi       Oops! thanks. I forgot it  ;-)
22:21 ricardo    Eheh
22:21 davi       :)
22:25 davi
22:25 davi       Same problem with JSON
22:25 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 60/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
22:25 davi
22:27 davi       Why is it referencing  CGI-Session-4.20 ?   I have an older version of CGI-Session.
22:27 ricardo    davi: Really? Interesting. What's your version?
22:27 davi
22:27 davi       MySQL fails too. So the same than before installing such packages:
22:27 davi       t/g4_mysql......................skipped
22:27 davi               all skipped: Couldn't establish connection with the MySQL server: Can't connect to data source '' because I can't work out what driver to use (it doesn't seem to contain a 'dbi:driver:' prefix and the DBI_DRIVER env var is not set) at t/g4_mysql.t line 44
22:28 davi
22:28 davi        CGI::Session::VERSION  3.95
22:29 davi         as adviced at the Ubuntu guide: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=ubuntu_gutsy
22:29 davi
22:29 davi       I fear I am messing the Ubuntu installation with some of the instruction only right for OpenSuse
22:30 davi
22:30 ricardo    davi: Hmmm... Makefile.PL lists the required (minimum) version as being 4.10:
22:30 davi       ricardo, Do you have a VirtualBox image with Koha 3.0 which I could download?
22:30 ricardo    http://git.koha.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=Koha;a=blob;f=Makefile.PL
22:31 ricardo    davi: I'm afraid not
22:31 davi
22:31 davi       Oops! you are right!
22:31 davi       Let me install it again
22:31 davi         wget http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/M/MA/MARKSTOS/CGI-Session-4.30.tar.gz
22:31 davi         ...
22:32 ricardo    davi: I'm always right... except when I'm wrong!  ;-)
22:33 davi       I use to be wrong except when I am right
22:34 ricardo    LOL
22:34 davi       :)
22:35 davi       When I grow I want to be a nerd, due to nerds are the more happy people in the world
22:35 ricardo    davi: You really should NOT believe the marketing brochure so much...  ;-)
22:35 davi       :)
22:44 davi       Now I have the version of 4.30 CGI::Session
22:44 davi         I had forgot execute:  # make install
22:45 davi
22:45 davi       But I get yet:
22:45 davi          mainpage.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.auth_types' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Koha.pm line 340.
22:45 davi          ...
22:45 davi          install.pl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Table 'koha.language_subtag_registry' doesn't exist at /build/kohaclone/C4/Languages.pm line 178.
22:45 davi          ...
22:45 davi          install.pl: Can't locate object method "generate_id" via package "CGI::Session::ID::" (perhaps you forgot to load "CGI::Session::ID::"?) at /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8/CGI/Session.pm line 74.
22:46 gmcharlt   davi: once you have the 4.30 CGI::Session, try installing the YAML serializer again
22:46 davi         perl -MCPAN -e 'install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml'
22:46 davi       thanks
22:51 davi
22:51 davi       Shit! same error again:
22:51 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 70/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
22:51 davi       #   Failed test 'Previously stored object loaded successfully'
22:52 gmcharlt   it's pulling from CGI-Session-4.20 - try clearing your CPAN cache under /root/.cpan/build
22:53 davi       What command to clean it?
22:53 davi          rm -rf
22:53 davi       ?
22:55 davi       rm -rf CGI-Session-3.95
22:55 davi       rm -rf CGI-Session-4.20
22:55 davi       done
22:55 davi
22:55 davi       perl -MCPAN -e 'install CGI::Session::Serialize::yaml'  # again
22:56 ricardo    davi:  Crossing fingers here, for what it's worth...   :)
22:56 davi       :D
23:01 davi
23:01 davi       Failed again:
23:01 davi       t/g4_dbfile_json................ok 57/101       (in cleanup) Dumping circular structures is not supported with JSON::Syck at /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/blib/lib/CGI/Session/Serialize/json.pm line 18.
23:01 ricardo    You've got to admire JSON::Syck for its persistence!  ;-)
23:02 gmcharlt   davi: try install manually
23:02 gmcharlt   1. download and unpack http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/R/RS/RSAVAGE/CGI-Session-Serialize-yaml-4.21.tgz
23:02 davi       The directory   /root/.cpan/build/CGI-Session-4.20/  which I removed has been regenerated.
23:03 gmcharlt   2. follow INSTALL
23:03 ricardo    davi: Yep... That's weird (why would it show 4.20 instead of 4.30? puzzled...). Oh well. Follow gmcharlt's advice
23:03 davi       OK, I am going to follow gmcharlt advice
23:11 davi
23:11 davi       lynx localhost:8080 works now! thanks
23:11 gmcharlt   yay!
23:11 ricardo    GREAT!!! :D
23:11 davi       :)
23:12 ricardo    I must admit I think I'll never understand WHY that works. Oh well..
23:15 davi       I would like to learn why it was failing, but not now :)
23:16 ricardo    Eheh... I understand
23:16 davi       I am just a robot, a nerd
23:16 davi       :)
23:18 ricardo    davi: Well, I like to believe that nerds / geeks are curious by nature.
23:19 davi       It could be a way to follow
23:20 ricardo    Yep
23:29 davi       Now, I want to understand the Koha source code. Is there any architecture document or similar?
23:29 davi       Or else an 'analysis' or 'design' document?
23:30 ricardo    davi: "Abandon hope all ye who enter here"  ;-)
23:31 davi       :) I see
23:31 ricardo    Seriously though, there's a Koha Architecture Guide for v2
23:31 davi       That can be an start. Any URI?
23:32 ricardo    Koha Architectural Study
23:32 ricardo    http://www.kohadocs.org/Koha_architecture.html
23:33 davi       thanks
23:34 ricardo    davi: You're welcome  :)
23:35 davi       let see what we get out from this...
23:37 ricardo    davi: Sure
23:38 davi       night
23:38 ricardo    davi: Good night!
01:27 ricardo    kados: are you still here?
01:33 ricardo    kados: In the case you read this - I just updated my Installation Instructions for Koha 3 in openSUSE 11.0 in the Koha Developer Wiki - http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=opensuse_11.0
01:34 ricardo    However, it's already 2H30 AM (!) here in Portugal, and I will only be able to updated those instructions for the INSTALL.opensuse file tomorrow night (night here in Portugal, probably afternoon there in the US)
01:34 ricardo    Take care!  :)
01:35 ricardo    ( s/updated/update    gee...)
01:35 ricardo    Bye