Time  Nick            Message
11:16 CGI928          hi
11:16 CGI928          is anybody there
13:55 owen            Hi johnb
13:59 johnb           Hi owen, just trying out my new computer
14:00 johnb           Yeah, they do smell nice and the keyboard just feel different
14:02 soul9           re
14:59 fbcit           g'morning koha
15:03 qiqo            hey guys
15:04 qiqo            having some problem here
15:04 qiqo            anyone who can assist?
15:04 qiqo            ive already migrated the database to zebra
15:04 qiqo            when i search the opac nothing shows up
15:06 hdl             zebrazrv is launched ?
15:06 hdl             datas are indexed in zebra ?
15:06 qiqo            yeah
15:07 qiqo            zebrazrv is already a daemon
15:08 qiqo            already exported data in 2.2 to 3.0
15:09 qiqo  
15:09 qiqo            try searching for islam
15:13 qiqo            ok ill try to restart my server
15:14 hdl             qiqo: is there no zebra log ?
15:14 qiqo            hold on ill check
15:15 qiqo            where do yo usually have the logs?
15:20 gmcharlt        qiqo: if you did the install in "standard" mode, it would be in /var/log/koha
15:20 qiqo            yeah i saw it
15:20 qiqo            hold on
15:21 qiqo            nothing on the logs
15:21 qiqo            zebraqueue, daemon, errors etc
15:22 qiqo            ohh i see something
15:22 qiqo            DBD::mysql::db koha.systempreferencsces doesnt exist
15:24 qiqo            ill put it on pastebin
15:24 gmcharlt        ok
15:25 qiqo            http://pastebin.com/m6aaf53f1
15:25 qiqo            seems to be missing tables
15:25 qiqo            i just followed the instructions on kohadocumentations 22_to_30
15:27 gmcharlt        qiqo: are you able to log in to the staff intranet?
15:27 qiqo            yeah
15:27 qiqo            everything seems to be good
15:27 qiqo            except searching
15:27 gmcharlt        I wonder if there might be two copies of $KOHA_CONF / koha-conf.xml running around
15:28 qiqo            should only be one
15:28 gmcharlt        with the zebraqueue daemon picking up the wrong
15:28 gmcharlt        one
15:28 qiqo            uhuh
15:28 qiqo            how do i check on that?
15:29 qiqo            tried echo #KOHA_CONF nothing is there
15:29 gmcharlt        if you started zebraquue by running /etc/init.d/koha-zebraqueue-ctl.sh, take a look at it
15:30 gmcharlt        and make sure that where it sets KOHA_CONF in the script, that it's pointed to the right koha-conf.xml
15:30 gmcharlt        which should be the same koha-conf.xml referenced in the Apache config for your Koha virtual hosts
15:31 qiqo            no /etc/init.d/koha-zebraqueue-ctl.sh.. just koha-zebraqueue-daemon
15:32 gmcharlt        sorry; yes, that's the right script
15:32 qiqo            oh ok
15:33 qiqo            wait ill just restart my server just to check if zebra is properly starting
15:33 gmcharlt        ok
15:34 qiqo            so when do we expect for the beta realease of 3.0?
15:35 gmcharlt        hopefully this weekend or early next week kados will announce it
15:35 qiqo            wow
15:35 qiqo            that's cool.  a lot of bugs have been fixed
15:36 qiqo            well just bought a dell server for a decent price
15:36 gmcharlt        cool -- what specs?
15:37 qiqo            well it's refurbished, 2 XEON processors running at 2.0GHz
15:37 qiqo            2GB ECC RAM
15:37 qiqo            2 redundant powersupply
15:37 qiqo            1 tape backup
15:38 qiqo            4 SCSI hdds.
15:38 qiqo            pretty decent.. looks new
15:39 gmcharlt        good
15:39 qiqo            $400..
15:40 gmcharlt        seriously only $400?
15:40 qiqo            yep..
15:40 qiqo            hehe
15:40 gmcharlt        cool
15:40 qiqo            it's a poweredge 2600
15:44 qiqo            aww still not working
15:44 gmcharlt        do /var/run/koha/zebradb and /var/lock/koha/zebradb exist (known issue on some platforms that I'm writing a patch for as we speak)
15:45 qiqo            im running debian etch
15:45 qiqo            wait ill check
15:45 qiqo            yup they exist
15:47 gmcharlt        we can try using yaz-client to see if the Zebra database is accepting searches
15:47 qiqo            oh ok
15:48 gmcharlt        so
15:48 gmcharlt        1. yaz-client
15:48 gmcharlt        2. open unix:/var/run/koha/zebradb/bibliosocket
15:48 gmcharlt        3. base biblios
15:48 qiqo            uhuh
15:48 qiqo            ok hold on..
15:55 qiqo            http://pastebin.com/d52f96291
15:56 gmcharlt        looks ok so far
15:56 gmcharlt        do a 'find the' (or whatever a common word might be in your database
15:56 gmcharlt        and see if it returns any hits
15:57 qiqo            number of hits 0
15:57 hdl             you should index your data.
15:57 qiqo            uhuh
15:58 gmcharlt        yeah -- /usr/share/koha/bin/migration_tools/rebuild_zebra.pl  -b -r
15:58 hdl             first : move marc to bblioitems.
15:58 qiqo            oh ok
15:58 hdl             then
15:58 hdl             what gmcharlt said.
15:59 gmcharlt        reindexing was in the 22_to_30 instructions under the 'Zebra/NoZebra stuff' heading, so make sure you've done everything else up to that point
16:00 qiqo            hmm
16:00 qiqo            ok
16:01 qiqo            this one? http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=22_to_30
16:01 gmcharlt        yes
16:02 qiqo            hmm ive done all of those things, step by step
16:03 gmcharlt        ok, then let's try the rebuild_zebra again and see the results
16:03 qiqo            still nothing
16:04 gmcharlt        did it not produce any output at all?
16:04 qiqo            yup
16:09 qiqo            you have vnc viewer?
16:10 qiqo            i can portforward my vnc server
16:11 gmcharlt        just a moment, let me get a VNC client installed
16:12 gmcharlt        qiqo: ready
16:13 qiqo            ok
16:15 qiqo            just tell me when youre on it
16:16 gmcharlt        ok, i'm in
16:16 qiqo            cool
16:17 gmcharlt        ok, let me check your koha-conf.xml and zebra directories first
16:17 qiqo            aryt
16:18 qiqo            thank you very much
16:20 gmcharlt        looks like index exists but did not really get created
16:20 gmcharlt        next I'm going to switch to the koha user and check your MySQL database to ensure bibliositems.marcxml exists
16:21 qiqo            ok
16:22 qiqo            vnc is really cool
16:22 qiqo            hehe
16:22 gmcharlt        ok, database looks ok so far
16:22 gmcharlt        now I'm going to try indexing
16:23 qiqo            aryt
16:23 qiqo            ohh
16:25 gmcharlt        ok, looks like some zebra directories were created as root -- I'm going to chown koha:koha on the appropriate ones
16:25 qiqo            ahh ok
16:28 gmcharlt        are you using UNIMARC or MARC21?
16:28 qiqo            MARC21
16:28 qiqo            for the Philippines
16:29 gmcharlt        ok, looks like biblionumber and biblioitemnumber are still stored in 090 instead of 999 in your DB
16:30 qiqo            hmm
16:30 gmcharlt        it's ok, I  can make a quick update to your index config
16:30 qiqo            ok thank you
16:32 gmcharlt        ok, that's better
16:32 qiqo            cool
16:32 qiqo            hehe
16:32 gmcharlt        let me try the yaz search now
16:33 qiqo            ohh
16:33 qiqo            i think i removed the zebra daemon
16:33 qiqo            let's try to run it first
16:34 gmcharlt        gotcha
16:34 qiqo            yup it's not running
16:34 qiqo            hehe
16:34 qiqo            i actually removed them a while ago
16:35 qiqo            sorry. :(
16:35 gmcharlt        no problem -- script actually resides elsewhere -- the /etc/init.d/ versions are only symlinks
16:36 qiqo            yeah
16:36 qiqo            omg it's running
16:36 qiqo            OMG
16:36 qiqo            thank you very much
16:36 gmcharlt        searches working in OPAC now?
16:36 qiqo            yeah
16:36 qiqo            but..
16:37 qiqo            it has the word "frey 50"
16:37 qiqo            i actually reported these to bugs.koha
16:37 qiqo            also amazon images do not load
16:37 qiqo            because if the isbn has a comment in it. it wont ignore it. (i.e. ppk, hardbound)
16:38 gmcharlt        ok, well the latter should be easy enough to fix
16:38 qiqo            yey!
16:38 qiqo            hey thank you very much! i really appreciate the big help gmcharlt
16:39 gmcharlt        no problem
16:39 gmcharlt        and it looks like the frey50 stuff is just a UNIMARCism that should be easy enough to take out for MARC21
16:39 qiqo            so the frey50 thing will just be a minor thing?
16:39 gmcharlt        yeah
16:39 gmcharlt        should be gone by time 3.0 general release is out
16:40 qiqo            uhuh..
16:40 gmcharlt        I do think you will need to plan on doing the 2.2 -> 3.0 upgrade again after 3.0 comes out
16:40 gmcharlt        3.0 general release that is
16:40 qiqo            yeah i think so..
16:40 qiqo            so ill just stick with 2.2 for now
16:40 qiqo            need to catalogue 1000 titles hehe
16:41 gmcharlt        have fun ;-)
16:41 qiqo            anyway i have 4 harddisks
16:41 qiqo            so i can just use one for 2.2
16:41 qiqo            thank you very much gmcharlt
16:41 gmcharlt        and another for Koha 3 in March ;-)
16:41 gmcharlt        you're welcome
16:41 qiqo            ohh so that's in march..
16:41 qiqo            ok..
16:42 qiqo            oh btw
16:42 qiqo            can you see this
16:42 qiqo            it's because the personal name is blank, it was replaced by a date
16:42 qiqo            anyway, i already wrote about these in bugs.koha.org
16:43 gmcharlt        yep, I see the bug report -- chris or I will follow up next week
16:43 qiqo            aryt thank you very much..
16:44 gmcharlt        no prob
16:47 qiqo            hmm our university launched its in-house developed ILS
16:47 qiqo            i dunno if it's good or what..
16:47 qiqo            http://ilib.upd.edu.ph
16:47 qiqo            i still dont trust the programmers..
16:47 qiqo            i'll stick with koha. proven working
16:48 gmcharlt        did they write it entirely from scratch?
16:48 qiqo            dunno.. looks like koha to me
16:49 qiqo            well they claim they started from scratch but who's to know
16:49 qiqo            quite fast with the opac.. but i think the staff interface quite sux
16:50 gmcharlt        yeah, looks like a Java servlets app
16:51 gmcharlt        do they intend to open source it? ;-)
16:51 qiqo            yeah.. theyve been building that for almost a decade
16:51 qiqo            nope
16:51 qiqo            i dont think so
16:51 gmcharlt        fie on them, then ;-)
16:51 qiqo            theyve spent millions on that. they had problems with their programmers
16:52 qiqo            hehehe..
16:52 qiqo            dunno what will happen next if the system crashed
16:52 qiqo            anyway as i have told people here. I am urging our national library to use koha
16:52 qiqo            and they are on their testing stage
16:52 qiqo            they are hoping for 3.0 also..
16:53 gmcharlt        good to hear
16:53 qiqo            yeah.. but it really needs a lot of customization
16:53 qiqo            currently they are using TLS
16:54 gmcharlt        what's TLS?
16:54 qiqo            The Library system
16:54 qiqo            they are scrapping it
16:55 qiqo            ohh it's TLC i think
16:56 gmcharlt        ahh, TLC I know about
16:56 gmcharlt        yeah, the whole iLib thing looks very similar to Koha, at least from screenhosts from a PowerPoint I found on the net
16:58 qiqo            im not suprised
16:58 gmcharlt        don't really mind them not using Koha -- it's their choice, after all, but I don't see the point of investing millions in a home-grown ILS nowadays unless you're planning to open-source it (or try to sell it as a proprietary product, I suppose)
16:58 gmcharlt        oh well
16:58 qiqo            well they want to earn from it
16:58 qiqo            hehehe
16:59 qiqo            we actualy have 1 million titles, so they wanted to have an ILS
17:00 qiqo            are you seeing the ppt presentation of arlante?
17:01 gmcharlt        this is the one I saw: http://www.localinfonet.net/toyota/index_program_22-24_SalvacionM.Arlante.ppt , so yeah, Arlante
17:01 qiqo            oh ok
17:02 qiqo            i think the only thing missing is with amazon's integration
17:57 christine       hi!  is anyone here!
17:58 gmcharlt        hi christine
17:59 christine       wow!  sorry, i've been on the phone
18:00 christine       trying to figure this out!
18:00 christine       i though IRC was DEAD!!!!
18:00 christine       are you going to be at the meeting this afternoon?
18:02 gmcharlt        yes
18:02 gmcharlt        or at least, I'll be paying some attention to it, since I also have coding to do
18:03 christine       right on.  ok.  i'm signing off now... just wanted to make sure i could get in.  (procrastinated and now don't want to download anything!)
18:03 christine       maybe talk to you then.  ciao!
18:03 gmcharlt        later
19:45 irma            Good day all from Sydney (Australia)
19:46 mouk            hi irma, good day from holland.
19:47 Deb             hi irma
19:48 Deb             hi mouk!
19:48 Deb             thanks for helping me last evening.
19:48 mouk            hello deb. no problem. :)
19:48 irma            hi there Deb
19:49 Deb             irma, glad you're here!
19:50 Deb             slef I hve noidea what you said
19:50 mouk            deb: slef is mj "the developer"
19:51 mouk            (i think)
19:51 Deb             mj intimidates me.
19:51 gmcharlt        yep, slef is MJ
19:52 Deb             thanks now I know
19:52 Deb             yesteday I thought mouk was mj
19:52 irma            mouk: How is the translation of Koha in Dutch going?
19:52 mouk            this is true. :)
19:52 mouk            yesterday my name was mj, (my real initials)
19:52 mouk            but I since MJ Ray is so well known here, today I go by 'mouk'
19:53 mouk            as far as I know, only a few words are transleted...
19:53 mouk            lated
19:54 mouk            we are an institute in holland, but we are 100% english-spoken
19:54 mouk            irma, interested in a dutch translation? where in the world are you?
19:55 irma            mouk: I see. Perhaps if a public library adops Koha, there will be a need for a Dutch translation.
19:55 mouk            true.
19:56 Deb             we have a few minutes before 2pm cst.  I have a few questions.
19:56 Deb             first, this log will be saved right?
19:57 rickw           i am saving a copy
19:57 mouk            me too...
19:57 rickw           i will then put it up on the web somewhere foranyone who wishes to download it
19:57 Deb             yes I am too. But I believe the log is saved via #koha as well
19:57 rickw           dunno
19:57 Deb             gmcharlt do you know?
19:57 Deb             Perhaps it doesn't matter.
19:57 mouk            there are here: http://koha.org/cgi-bin/logs.pl
19:58 gmcharlt        mouk++
19:58 Deb             thanks mouk++
19:58 Deb             still learning the commands.
19:58 Deb             rickw thanks for all your help last night.
19:58 rickw           then there are idioms to learn sa well
19:58 Deb             I wish so many people came to my aid on a regular basis in rl
19:59 rickw           LOL ... yeah, we wish!
19:59 Deb             ok, according to my computer clock it's 2:01 shall we start?
19:59 mouk            it's one minute before, here...
19:59 rickw           on commence!
19:59 mouk            maybe the time difference...
19:59 rickw           5 seconds to, here
20:00 Deb             Thank you all for coming to this virtual KUDOS meeting
20:00 V               How many of us are on?
20:00 rickw           what does KUDOS stand for?
20:00 rickw           attendance is about 24 right now
20:00 Deb             I have no idea how many folks are here, but welcome! I know we have people from all over the world! Cool!!!
20:00 rickw           here is a list:
20:00 rickw           Deb MatthewMetzger V atz chris cm donovan fbcit gmcharlt irma jaron JoRansom kados marla martinmorris masonj
20:00 rickw           +mouk nengard newlogbot paul randym rickw ryan saorge_ si slef soul9 thd-away
20:01 Deb             KUDOS=Koha Users and Developers of Open Source Software.
20:01 Deb             Joshua Ferrraro of LibLime came up with that name.  Creative, huh?
20:01 rickw           (note that some of the nicks on the list are bots)
20:01 irma            Joshua++
20:01 rickw           Jushua += createive
20:01 Deb             However, someone mentioned and I think it was MJRay, that 'free' should be somewhere in the name.
20:01 mouk            so, it's not a group that's supposed to be KOHA specific? (koha & Developers of Open Source Software)
20:02 V               what's a bot?
20:02 rickw           robot
20:02 rickw           a piece of software to do something
20:02 rickw           should have been AI, but AI has failed ;)
20:02 Deb             What do you mean by 'koha'specific?
20:02 V               Yes, but...
20:02 JoRansom        just for Koha users and developers?
20:02 mouk            it's aimed at koha users, right?
20:02 V               OK, got it
20:02 rickw           i think mouk is pointing out the ambiguity of the conjunction etween "koha" and "developers"
20:03 mouk            i read it as: group for koha users, and Developers of Open Source Software
20:03 Deb             Did I not say Koha Users and Developers?
20:03 JoRansom        so the name doesn't quite mean what we wantg it to mean
20:03 Deb             joransom what do you mean?
20:03 christine_santa hi, sorry i'm late.
20:03 rickw           ah: Koha Users And Developers
20:03 Deb             no prob christine
20:03 JoRansom        i read it more as been koha users who use open source software - as in the emphasis is on the other os not on koha
20:04 Deb             yes, koha users and koha developers of open source software
20:04 rickw           this is already ready getting pythonesque ... anyone for latin?
20:04 Deb             Is Kados on here?  He could clarifiy
20:04 V               It does sound like it means koha and other open source users
20:04 Deb             Or John Brice?
20:04 mouk            so I;m guessing it like: group of koha users and koha developers.
20:04 nengard         deb:kados is out presenting
20:04 rickw           yes. that's it.
20:04 mouk            right.
20:04 rickw           (i think we all knew that anyway)
20:04 Deb             ok, you all make good points.  I will share this with John and Josh, how's that?
20:04 V               glad that's settled
20:05 Deb             ok.  I have to make an apology.
20:05 mouk            good.
20:05 MatthewMetzger  V: me, too
20:05 Deb             In my email yesterday I stated 'company'
20:05 rickw           Deb mentioned one quasi-agenda item: Facebook
20:05 Deb             when I should have said 'companies'.
20:05 V               How many of us are koha users already?
20:06 christine_santa i am
20:06 Deb             There are several companies that support and host Koha, not just one.
20:06 rickw           i am
20:06 mouk            i am.
20:06 JoRansom        i am
20:06 JoRansom        horowhenua library trust - NZ
20:06 V               Thanks.
20:06 MatthewMetzger  our Library is migrating from 2.2.9 to 3.0 apha
20:06 rickw           deb: facebook?
20:06 Deb             MJRay caught it and mentioned it to me. I'm making a public and formal apology.
20:06 Deb             See why I'm intimidated?
20:06 JoRansom        thanks Deb.
20:06 rickw           deb: don't worry. you'll do fine
20:06 Deb             Facebook--yes.  At the moment I'm the only administrator.
20:07 rickw           what does that mean?
20:07 Deb             Would anyone else be willing to help with this?
20:07 rickw           admin of facebook?
20:07 MatthewMetzger  rickw: admin of a facebook group?
20:08 Deb             admin on the facebook KUDOS group means that I'm the only one who can make changes to the profile and a few other functions.
20:08 Deb             Anyone willing to take this on?
20:09 Deb             At the moment we have 43 members.  Not bad since the group's been up for less than 90 days.
20:09 irma            Deb: Sorry, too busy already.
20:09 V               Is the intent of Facebook as the primary source of communication among us?
20:09 Deb             That's my issue.  I have 2 huge projects.
20:10 Deb             V I don't think so.  At the moment it's the listservs.  The KUDOS and Kapito listservs
20:10 V               Why Facebook then?
20:10 JoRansom        Kapito = Katipo (for newbies)
20:11 Deb             FaceBook is a great social networking tool.  You can invite all the members to a function, mention meeting times. and interact.
20:11 Deb             dang it.  typing way too fast.
20:11 JoRansom        lol
20:12 Deb             Based on the lack of response, no one at this meeting is willing to take it on. so, let's move on.
20:12 irma            Deb: Do I read that you would like support with organising this IRC meeting for example?
20:12 Deb             irma, not sure what you mean here.  Can you clarify a bit?
20:13 irma            Deb: the communication to notify all of time and place...
20:13 mouk            i don't see why that cannot be done though the regular mailinglists...
20:13 irma            and you might be thinking about emailing the list later today with a summary?
20:13 Deb             Well, here's the thing.  And I'm gonna go slow for myself.
20:14 Deb             In the email I sent out there are several communication venues.
20:14 Deb             website, listserv, facebook and the IRC.
20:15 Deb             I don't believe there's a Koha User Group in the U.S. established at the moment.
20:15 Deb             ARe there any around the world?
20:15 JoRansom        not in NZ
20:15 slef            I'm happy to help with the Facebook (I'm on it, wish I wasn't) but I'm non-US.
20:15 slef            Deb: there's kohala, based in Paris, not sure if it's France-only
20:15 irma            not in Australia (yet)
20:16 Deb             so, John Brice and I with LibLime's support and help organized the first KUDOS meeting at ALAMW08.
20:16 JoRansom        a facebook admin need not live in US I wouldn't have thought
20:16 MatthewMetzger  slef: I closed (deactivated) my facebook account. I recommend free community services. website. listserve. and IRC
20:16 mouk            (no group in holland)
20:17 Deb             At that meeting, we were not able to get to a point where we could put together an actual users group with a mission statement, bylaws, etc.
20:17 Deb             So, we were going to do that at PLA. Which John is intending to do.
20:17 slef            MatthewMetzger: I'm playing with NoseRub at http://cooperativemagazine.co.uk/ ; and deactivating your facebook account means they keep your info - there's a court case pending in England IIRC
20:17 Deb             Anyway, I had to drop out because my rl workload increased.
20:17 mouk            i know: that's why I'm not going to signup for facebook
20:18 MatthewMetzger  slef: I'm glad someone is taking legal action, but to focus on koha business ....
20:18 Deb             So, as I stated in the email, we'll let John move ahead with the Planning of the KUDOS user group at PLA.
20:18 custard         the silence could also mean were not all convinced of the need to be part of yet another web social-organising thingy (ie facebook).
20:18 Deb             omg.  I hadn't heard about the facebook lawsuit.
20:18 mouk            custard speaks wisely
20:19 MatthewMetzger  custard: does speak wisely
20:19 Deb             well, facebook is VERY popular in the states.
20:19 mouk            not so much in holland.
20:19 Deb             FaceBook is making it popular for businesses as well.
20:19 christine_santa ok folks. sorry i've only lasted 10 minutes.  sounds like i missed the drama.  was a little monte python-esque for a bit.  gotta go.  will read if it's archived. i gotta run.  ciao!
20:19 slef            I was at an education conference recently (to be blogged soon) and it seemed FaceBook was popular among them.  And I think OCLCers also liked it.
20:20 Deb             All I'm asking with regard to facebook is if someone will be willing to help.
20:20 CGI763          Hi All, I'm logged on thru Koha so name not shown, Susan, I'm willing to help but just started Koha, not live yet.
20:20 slef            yes, but I'll stand aside if you find a USer... mail me after
20:20 Deb             looks like slef is willing.
20:20 Deb             Is that correct?
20:21 Deb             I'm not sure about OCLCers.  I haven't looked at their group.
20:21 Deb             slef are you willing?
20:22 slef            yep
20:22 Deb             great thanks.  WE can email off IRC if that's ok with you?
20:22 slef            yes
20:22 Deb             great.  That's all i had.  Anyone else?
20:22 slef            facebook legal woes http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7196803.stm
20:23 Deb             Thanks!
20:23 V               I'd prefer not to rely on Facebook for our communications and info.
20:23 irma            same with me
20:23 mouk            i agree V
20:23 Deb             Does everyone else agree with V?
20:23 marla           I do.
20:23 Deb             ok, sound like it's unanimous.  I'll let John and Josh know.
20:23 JoRansom        yep
20:24 Deb             The real reason for this meeting is it was one last task that I had from the ALAMW08 organizational meeting.
20:24 slef            I think there's a subscription module for wordpress (which powers the current kudos web page) which would let people get announcements by email if they want.
20:24 Deb             When I invited people, so many couldn't attend, and many wanted a virtual method for meeting.
20:24 Deb             So, how's this working for all of you?
20:25 Deb             slef how's that work?
20:25 JoRansom        is fine
20:25 marla           OK here.
20:26 slef            Deb: not sure of specifics - not used it myself yet - I think it would just add a "enter your email address here to receive announcements" box to the side bar on the KUDOS web pages.
20:26 V               So far, so good.
20:26 Rosa            Ok for me
20:26 Deb             would you be willing to check it out and email us via the 2 listservs and we could all try it?
20:26 custard         could I put in a vote for about an hour later?
20:26 slef            fine with IRC, but time isn't great for England, but that's fine as it's not a group aimed at us ;-)
20:26 slef            Deb: 2 listservs?
20:27 Deb             yep.  KUDOS and Koha.Katipo something.  Don't have them memorized.
20:27 mouk            slef, what england now: 21:00?
20:27 slef            mouk: use mj if you want - I'm always slef or something like it on IRC.
20:27 slef            Deb: 20:25
20:27 slef            oops
20:27 mouk            so problem. on msn I'm actually always mouk :)
20:27 slef            mouk: 20:25
20:27 mouk            thanks anyway
20:27 mouk            so=no problem
20:27 custard         but then I'm not in the US either, so this isn't realy aimed at me.
20:28 Deb             what do you all mean it's 'not aimed at me.'
20:28 slef            Deb: I'll try to mail both, but I'm not currently subscribed to the KUDOS one so it might not allow me.
20:28 slef            Deb: I thought KUDOS is a US group?
20:28 slef            slef: we euros are better off looking to kohala (for tax reasons if nothing else) as I understand it.
20:29 slef            slef: you're talking to yourself again.
20:29 slef            slef: sorry
20:29 Deb             I'm not sure about that.  When Josh and I spoke about it it was world wide. Just a sec.  LEt me go to the Koha.org wiki.  be right back.
20:29 mouk            slef haha
20:29 JoRansom        I lik the idea of a worldwide group.
20:30 slef            paul_: you there?
20:30 Deb             what it says on the wiki is:  This is the beginnings of the ‘Koha Users and Developers of Open Source’ Group (Acronym ‘KUDOS’–a working title–suggestions welcome!
20:30 Deb             The user group is being created for Koha users worldwide.
20:30 slef            argh
20:30 JoRansom        and it doesn't preclude related groups, like the French users group
20:30 custard         I do to, but it does mean that some of us are going to loose out time wise,
20:30 Deb             I don't know.  I don't have answer for that.
20:30 custard         s/to/too
20:31 Deb             Perhaps this conversation needs to include both John and Joshua.
20:31 slef            I'd really love a more inclusive, less USian name, then.
20:31 slef            probably, but I'm sure we've discussed it in the past... I'll see if the logger has it
20:31 Deb             Something told me you would slef;)
20:32 Deb             I'm not here to make any decisions.  I'm simply providing a virtual meeting venue.
20:33 Deb             I'm also not really organizing anything at the moment.
20:33 Rosa            There is an email on the Koha lisserv this morning from someone in Kenya, looking for other KOha users to share with.
20:33 Deb             Yes I saw that.
20:34 Rosa            And I'm aware there are a number of other libraries using Koha in southern Africa. So I think we should ne trying to be as inclusive as possible
20:35 rickw           one thing i would like to reaise with developers: the need for automted release testings
20:35 Deb             So, what I'm hearing is that you all would like a worldwide Koha Users Group.  IS this correct?
20:35 V               Someone, please remind me how to get to the Koha lisserv?
20:35 Deb             But doesn't France have one?
20:35 slef            V: lists.katipo.co.nz/mailman/listinfo/koha from memory
20:35 V               Thanks.
20:35 rickw           e.g. when you get ready to install a Perl module: make t est <=== do this step first and the see if the module works
20:36 rickw           Koha software needs similar
20:36 slef            rickw: tests have started appearing, but post-install ones so far, as most of C4 needs the database configured
20:36 mouk            i think IF there is a group, it should be worldwide, yes.
20:36 rickw           self: yes, I do mean post install
20:37 rickw           so, not exactly like perl
20:37 Deb             Ok, let me give you a bit of history about how this came about.
20:37 slef            rickw: ok, cool, it's underway ;-)
20:37 Deb             I chair a users group for III software.
20:37 rickw           anyone know why the name C4 ?
20:37 Deb             III has a worldwide users group. So do other proprietary ILS vendors.
20:37 slef            rickw: it's rumoured that it used to be explosively unstable.
20:38 rickw           and is C4 an explosive?
20:38 mouk            :)
20:38 slef            rickw: yep. Go watch Die Hard.
20:38 Deb             Here's how ours works. There's a worldwide group that has a mission, bylaws, it's nonprofit, all of that.
20:38 rickw           uhg
20:38 Deb             Then there are regional users groups, like mine.  None of the users groups have
20:39 Deb             any affiliation with the III company per se.
20:39 Deb             The regional user groups meet 2x a year and the worldwide group meets 1x per year.
20:39 Deb             Our yearly meeting this year is in April in Washington D.C.
20:39 Deb             There I will meet III users from all over the world.
20:40 V               What is III?
20:40 Deb             EAch user group has members, a dues structure, and generally charge a registration fee for meetings.
20:41 Deb             Joshua was invited to one of our regional meetings and saw how it was organized and set up.
20:41 diana           As in Triple III?
20:41 Deb             Thought it would be a good idea to create a Koha Users group.
20:41 JoRansom        Deb: what is it that the users group sets out to achieve: goals etc?
20:41 rosalie         the reason for C4 is in the mists of time. It stood for a Cheap and Cheerful Copy of Catalist, which was the ILS Horowhenua Library Trust was using when we decided to develop Koha
20:41 rickw           thx rosalie
20:42 Deb             John Brice and I volunteered to create the group, but it didn't happen at ALAMW08, so he's going to have a meeting at PLA.
20:42 Deb             with me so far?
20:42 rickw           diana: you mean IIIIIIIII?
20:42 Deb             diana yes IIIIIIIII
20:42 JoRansom        DEb: yes
20:42 slef            rosalie: thanks!
20:42 Deb             sorry.  typing and not reading
20:43 Deb             joransom the user group sets out to provide training and expertise in areas the members want.
20:43 mouk            no problem deb, i'm doing quite the opposite
20:43 rosalie         that's one good purpose
20:43 randym          Deb: how does KUDOS relate to the Koha Interest Groups http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=kohainterestgroups ?
20:43 Deb             So, for example, the catalogers want to know more about how to migrate records into III from OCLC some member may say they'll do a presentation on that.
20:44 JoRansom        cool. Is the group aiming to help shape development of Koha? ie communicating to the developers what we as users want and need?
20:45 JoRansom        and how it should work and why we may want a range of options sometimes to solve a problem?
20:45 Deb             The reason Joshua was invited was due to the fact so many III libraries began looking at the next generation ILS, heard about Open Source and wanted to know more
20:45 JoRansom        and a 3rd reason maybe, to co-fund significant development which we could all benefit from
20:45 diana           Josh did an excellent presentation here in Lawrence, Ks for us yesterday
20:45 diana           3.0 is a great improvement over 2.2
20:45 Deb             The steering committee (each user group has a steering commitee made up of a secretary, treasurer, member at large, chair and a chair-elect)
20:46 Deb             Based on the feedback from members (we always have the members do a feedback form after every conference) they wanted to know more about open source.
20:46 Deb             We invited LibLime and Joshua came.
20:47 rosalie         i don't see that preaching about open source is the main purpose of this group
20:47 irma            LibLime++++
20:47 Deb             The next meeting we invited someone using or migrating to Koha, so John STromquist came from WALDO.
20:47 rosalie         It's good to do (and I do it) but this group should be people who use Koha
20:47 rosalie         and want to share experience and plan together
20:48 V               Yes.
20:48 Deb             rosalie as opposed to?
20:48 rosalie         preaching about open source
20:48 JoRansom        and we need to balance the developer-user relationship in the development of koha
20:48 slef            I'm also a little bit mixed emotions if a (presumably tax-exempt) user group is going to compete with the koha development companies by providing training and charging fees.
20:48 irma            Not working in silos here and there but with increased collaboration. We are all so short of time.
20:49 Deb             slef you bring up a good point and this is where John Brice and Joshua could help.
20:49 Deb             I'm not the person at the moment to help organize the Koha User group for the following reasons.
20:49 Deb             a. I'm preaching about OS.
20:49 Deb             b. I'm a Koha user only part time.
20:50 Deb             Our libraries have not and may never migrate to Koha.
20:50 Deb             Having said that, I will continue to learn to use Koha.
20:50 Deb             Will I be excluded from the group then?
20:51 mouk            haha, i guess not. :)
20:51 mouk            I'm not a koha user myself, I've inly installed it here. :)
20:51 V               Many here are only thinking of using Koha, I think. Isn't that right?
20:51 JoRansom        I could see the user group deciding on a set of enhancements and then commssioning one of the Koha support compnaies to do the work. Might be Limlime, might be someone in France or anywhere...
20:52 slef            I don't see why.  As I understand it, you could in theory join kohala today, but I can't remember whether I've translated their rules into English.
20:52 Deb             joransom yes, this is something that John Brice brought up.  I wish he were here.
20:52 CGI763          we are migrating- hope to by live mid-April
20:52 mouk            JoRansom: that is a very good idea.
20:52 slef            JoRansom: if koha users want to form a consumer cooperative, I'd welcome that and offer what assistance I could.
20:52 mouk            (not that i have any specific requests)
20:52 JoRansom        But, and its a big but, we would need a strong well organised user group
20:53 Deb             a consumer cooperative is different that a user group
20:53 slef            CGI763: if you type /nick yourrealname (replacing yourrealname with something like your name) you should be more memorable
20:53 Deb             I'm willing to help organize a user group, but a. Idon't want to do it alone.
20:53 Deb             b. would you want me to? Knowing how I use Koha?
20:54 Susan           thanks!
20:55 slef            Deb: need consumer cooperatives be different to user groups, except that they're typically more democratic and active economic participants? ;-)
20:55 slef            Susan: no problem.
20:55 slef            Deb: questions for a wider audience, perhaps.
20:55 Deb             slef here's my understanding of the difference: the cooperatives would be
20:56 Deb             driven and attended more by developers, while the user group focuses on staff librarians and their issues.
20:56 Deb             Doesn't have to be that way.  You don't have to use an existing model.
20:56 Deb             My brain is flexible.
20:57 JoRansom        I quite liked that Koha was driven by librarians - and the developers made it
20:57 diana           user groups share best practices
20:57 slef            erm, developer cooperatives (like www.ttllp.co.uk aka www.software.coop) would be developer-driven, but they probably couldn't take a large role in user cooperatives
20:57 V               Are there two Debs online?
20:57 Deb             joransom not sure what you mean by your comment. Can you expand?
20:57 JoRansom        I would be sad to see librarians once again in a position where we have to accept what developers give us
20:57 custard         so what lnks between them?
20:58 Deb             no, just one Deb.
20:58 JoRansom        as we are so often with turnkey systems
20:58 Deb             custard lost the thread.  What are you commenting on?
20:58 custard         One of the thinks I liked the sound of about koha was that there appeared to be pretty good links between users and developers.
20:58 slef            JoRansom: I'm not sure that can ever happen with koha, with multiple developers and low barriers to entry
20:58 custard         the UG/Co-op comments
20:59 Deb             custard who are the 'users?'
20:59 slef            custard: yeah. We're not software barons. We can't dictate to users.
20:59 Deb             ARe they librarians or technical people?
20:59 JoRansom        Koha was a marriage between librarians who could describve what we wanted and developers who could take those words and make a system that achieved what we wanted and needed.
20:59 cm              hey, some of us are librarians *and* technical.  ;)
20:59 Deb             joransom gottcha
20:59 JoRansom        making suggestions for cool ways to achieve things.
20:59 slef            cm++
21:00 rosalie         ?
21:00 Deb             cm me too.  didn't mean anything negative
21:00 cm              i know.  just ribbing!
21:00 Deb             rosalie what's your question?
21:00 JustSomeGuy     Sorry I'm so late to the party.  Was there any discussion, by chance, of when the beta 3.0 might be released?
21:00 rickw           nope
21:00 rosalie         the ++, but I guess it just means I agree?
21:01 JustSomeGuy     I've been holding off getting into Koha , assuming I shouldn't get the alpha at this point...
21:01 rickw           is see ++ as "double plus good" (see Orwell's 1984)
21:01 slef            rosalie: it's an attempt to give karma points to cm, but I think there's no karma bot in here
21:01 Deb             well, we're coming up on an hour of this meeting.
21:01 Susan           Debra at LibLime mention March for Koha 3 release
21:01 rickw           JustSomeGuy: try Koha/2.2.9
21:02 Deb             slef has a sense of humor ;-)
21:02 Susan           Beta any day
21:02 slef            JustSomeGuy: I should be able to make you a tarball of current post-alpha pre-beta 3 if you want to play.  Got 5 minutes?
21:02 Deb             Well, we've covered new ground here and it was not my intention to do this.
21:02 slef            Deb: slef scares me too.
21:03 rickw           deb: did you want to cover old ground instead?
21:03 custard         deb: Just for a minute there it sounded  we were talking about a UG (for the librarians) and a co-op for developers and seperation between the two in this situation is bad.
21:03 custard         but the conversation seems to have moved on.
21:03 rosalie         I agree, custard
21:04 rosalie         the seperation needs to be avoided
21:04 slef            custard: there's already one co-op for developers, but there are other developers too.  I think there's a slight risk of conflict of interest if the UG becomes too developer-dirven.
21:04 Deb             custard I don't have expertise in combining the two.  I only have expertise in organizing user groups.
21:04 rosalie         building that bridge should be one of the purposes of this group
21:04 custard         slef: does it get past step three of the web installer on darwin?
21:04 rickw           self: is the co-op for developers the Koha-Devel list?
21:04 slef            custard: NAFAIK
21:05 V               yslef, yes, especially for users who are not technical (as I am not)
21:05 slef            rickw: www.ttllp.co.uk is a co-op for developers (not just of koha, for everything)
21:05 irma            I like to give an example of how I would turn to KUDOS for help: "LibraryThing  4 libraries" for eample.  I would like to review the library's reasons fro wishing to add it to their OPAC. Later review library patrons' commnent etc.
21:06 slef            rickw: I'd love either more koha developers in it, or other co-ops to get into koha development.
21:06 rickw           self: if i ever worked on Koha software, I'd start recording it in python!
21:06 Deb             Would other co-ops include other OS ILS developers?
21:06 rickw           s/recording/recoding/
21:06 custard         What I'm attempting to say is that if you're going down a user focused group, you need links to the developers
21:06 Deb             Perhaps I should say 'could'
21:07 slef            rickw: do it and I'll replace half your tabs with random numbers of spaces. ;-)
21:07 slef            Deb: yes, probably.
21:08 JoRansom        (I was hoping you were watching rach)
21:08 rach            so if you meet in this sort of forum we can all read back on a meeting, even if we aren't participating
21:08 Deb             omg if slef is small fry who's the big guns?
21:08 Deb             rach I know.
21:08 slef            rach, kados, paul_
21:08 slef            gmcharlt: drinking beer, aren't you?
21:08 diana           i like that example irma
21:08 Deb             I was just about to suggest we end this meeting and take it off line to the listservs?
21:09 gmcharlt        slef: alas, I'm actually working at the moment ;)
21:09 rickw           gmcharlt: drink beer *and* do youro work ;)
21:09 irma            Diana: thanks and do you have an example?
21:09 slef            gmcharlt: does that prevent drinking beer where you work? dull ;-)
21:09 gmcharlt        slef: don't want to write my Perl using lots of Javaisms, now, do we :)
21:10 rickw           200 lines of Java == 1 line of perl/python ;)
21:10 irma            It's time for me to start real life work...only a few minutes left before I shoot off
21:10 Deb             questions:  do you all want to continue this discussion off line?
21:10 cm              btw, i'm installing a 'subscribe' box on the wordpress site (http://ccfls.org/kudos) as suggested --almost done.
21:10 V               Can't right now.
21:11 rach            the koha mailing list is for koha users to both talk/question developers and support each other
21:11 rach            so please use it for that, it would be excellent
21:11 Deb             Where we could continue the discussion and have time to think about things
21:11 Deb             before answering?
21:11 slef            cm++
21:11 Deb             Or continue or
21:11 Deb             meet again on the IRC?
21:11 rach            my personal opinion is that if there are in person meetings going on, then they will be regional and should actually "say" they are regional, because who has the budget for international travel?
21:11 JoRansom        I support sticking to the established communication channels for the project
21:12 rickw           ditto
21:12 Deb             joransom what project?
21:12 Deb             Is there a project?
21:12 JoRansom        prokect = koha project
21:12 JoRansom        = koha ..
21:12 Deb             what koha project. Have I dropped another thread?
21:12 JoRansom        (was our wee project once .. old habits)
21:12 rosalie         it's a work in progress
21:12 JoRansom        sorry
21:12 rosalie         isn't it?
21:13 rach            yep it is :-)
21:13 Deb             still not sure what project--please clarify...
21:13 atz             Deb: the one great Koha project to rule them all.
21:13 rach            the development of the koha software is "a project"
21:13 irma            sure is...look at the leaps of the last few months!
21:13 JoRansom        go atz!
21:13 Deb             so we've left the user group and coop in the dust?
21:14 slef            no, it's all part of the project
21:14 rosalie         so lets adjourn and think, and send ideas to the Koha list about what this Koha users group could/should be doing
21:14 JoRansom        we need a reason for wanting / having a user group.
21:14 rickw           we need a manifesto!
21:14 JoRansom        what did you want to achieve today Deb?
21:14 rach            I really support the idea of people getting together in small focused groups because they have a common interest that might be more than just koha
21:15 Deb             not a manifesto, please
21:15 Deb             thanks slef
21:15 V               Is "Koha list" the same as lisserv?
21:15 rickw           V: yes
21:15 rach            I mean the same thing yes
21:15 Deb             there are two listservs
21:15 V               Thanks, rickw
21:15 gmcharlt        I vote for three years of ALA-style commitee meetings!
21:15 Deb             One is for koha
21:15 rach            I think that deb has another list as well
21:15 Deb             the other for kudos
21:15 Deb             I send to both.
21:15 slef            gmcharlt: have you been reading librarian.net too?
21:15 rickw           is there already a KUDOS list?
21:16 gmcharlt        slef: yep, constantly
21:16 Deb             That way any new kudos listserv folks can get into the conversation
21:16 cm              yeah, see ccfls.org/kudos for subscription info
21:16 Deb             how bout sending to both?
21:16 rach            there are 2 koha lists + debs new one, a general koha users list - koha@lists.katipo.co.nz,
21:16 JoRansom        why do we ned 2 lists?
21:16 rickw           urgh .. a plethora of lists is dveloping here
21:16 rach            and a koha developers lis, plus some language support lists
21:16 Deb             yes just a sec.  I'll get the kudos listserv address
21:16 rickw           cross-posting and reading multiple lists is a PITA
21:16 JoRansom        why do we need 2 lists?
21:16 slef            rickw: we need a list to coordinate mailing lists
21:17 Deb             KUDOS listserv kudos-list@ccfls.org
21:17 rickw           yes@
21:17 rickw           and nominate a list co-ordinator co-ordinator.
21:17 JoRansom        lets just use the koha list please, please
21:17 rickw           welcome to the dept of redundancy dept
21:17 rosalie         we need one for developers - the koha develpers list, and one other. No more, please
21:17 slef            rach: btw, can the koha list archive be split by month?  The index pages are getting a bit big.
21:17 Deb             well, we don't need 2, but they're there.  Some of hte new koha users who are supported by LibLime may use one and not the other and you'd want them to be engaged right?
21:17 rickw           i vote for just two lists ... that's enuf!
21:17 rickw           we all are prolly on many other lists too, don't forget!
21:17 gmcharlt        Deb: one possibility is to start small -- think of KUDOS as just a way to have an umbrella to reserve meeting space at ALA, PLA, IFLA conferences
21:18 JoRansom        so really its a Liblime clients list and the koha list?
21:18 gmcharlt        I agree that one koha mailing list and one koha-devel list is enough
21:18 atz             LibLime can keep its own lists, methinks
21:18 atz             (and I work there)
21:18 rach            :-)
21:18 Deb             gmcharlt I don't undestand your comment.  could you expand?
21:18 rach            slef - will go look at archiving
21:18 JoRansom        sounds like we are agreed?
21:19 JoRansom        koha dev, koha list, liblimes list?
21:19 Deb             joransom, can't say for sure.  You guys have gone way beyond the scope of what I sent out.
21:19 gmcharlt        I also work there -- I don't think LL was thinking of KUDOS as being a customers of LibLime group -- that would be organized separately, if such a thing is needed in the future
21:19 JoRansom        (coz liblime clients may well want their own list outside of the main koha lists)
21:20 rach            hmm it says it is monthly
21:20 rosalie         so what is the kudos list?
21:20 slef            rach: maybe it changed since I last tried - sorry!
21:20 rickw           ... and why is it needed on top of the existing [Koha] list?
21:20 slef            rach: thanks for looking anyway
21:20 JoRansom        exactly?
21:20 gmcharlt        Deb: my idea is that since it would be a Good Thing to have Koha users who are going to things like the ALA meeting be able to meet up anyway
21:20 JoRansom        sounds superfluos to me ...
21:20 Deb             the kudos listserv came about when we organized the first KUDOS meeting.
21:20 slef            rickw: koha list tends to be mostly support questions.  kudos would be for event organisation and so on, I think.
21:20 atz             i say, use the existing channels until they break or prove unsuitable
21:20 gmcharlt        Deb: KUDOS could exist (at least initially) simple as a way to organize such meetings
21:21 slef            atz: what you see as "existing" depends on where you stand.
21:21 Deb             gmcharlt gottcha.  slow here
21:21 rach            if you set up kudos as a "paid for" group, ie where people are paying dues etc, then I can see it would need it's own list to communicate with it's members, and that would likely be a private list
21:21 atz             slef:  what, alt.computing isn't good enough for ya?
21:21 rickw           if KUDOS is for organising things like meetings, fine. keep the developer requests and support on [Koha] i say
21:22 Deb             Ok, I have a few questions.  I'll pass this info onto John and Joshua.
21:22 atz             welcome to the party, owen
21:22 gmcharlt        Deb: and under that approach, there's no reason why KUDOS activity couldn't be done on the main koha mailing list unless/until it starts generating a lot of traffic (but as rach says, if it becomes something that you have to pay dues for, then a separate list would be a good idea)
21:22 Deb             I don't know that I'll be doing any more with organizing the Koha or Kudos users groups
21:23 rickw           rach: there are online meetings to organise as well. [Koha] has wokred fine in the past for online orgs
21:23 JoRansom        and it should be clearly identified as such.
21:23 gmcharlt        Deb: please don't get discouraged, though
21:24 rach            yep that's true, which is what I was trying to clarify on list :-)
21:24 JoRansom        its alays easier to throw stones than stand on the box!
21:24 Deb             I'm not discouraged.  sniff sniff
21:25 Deb             joransom don't understand your comment
21:25 Deb             apologies all around.  My brain is starting to numb.
21:25 gmcharlt        for one thing, I think it is really great that so many people have shown up today to talk (and dodge stones ;) )
21:25 rickw           box == soapbox
21:25 Deb             it's all slef's fault.
21:25 JoRansom        can we summarize anything from this meeting? Things we have identifed that need following up on, that we have agreed on etc?
21:25 rickw           i take it that KUDOS at the moment does little more than organise meetings?!?!
21:25 Deb             Yes. 1. Use the Koha list to continue this discussion
21:26 rosalie         yes
21:26 Deb             2. Do you want a Koha User Group with 2 sections: user group and coop
21:26 JoRansom        3. Clarify what KUDOS is : is it USA only / Lblime only / supplementary to koha list?
21:26 V               I have to sign off. Will there be any way for me to get info on continuation?
21:27 Deb             v if you tell us who you are?  Or if you're on the koha listserv, right?
21:27 V               I mean find out what transpires after I sign off?
21:27 slef            cm: is it OK with you if I add the kudos feed to the Koha Community Blogs page?
21:27 rosalie         4. what are the aims of the Koha Users group?
21:27 V               Sorry, I'm Vera.
21:27 cm              sure slef, fine with me.
21:27 custard         v: there's a log of the channel.
21:28 Deb             rosalie I think that has yet to be determined
21:28 rach             http://koha.org/cgi-bin/logs.pl
21:28 JoRansom        sure , so another thing we have yet to rsolve.
21:28 Deb             Is there anything any of you would like me to do?
21:28 Deb             5. slef will be an admin on Facebook Koha Users Group group
21:29 JoRansom        6. if we decide we want to use facebook.
21:29 JoRansom        (I thought there was a pretty unanimouis thumbs down ..?)
21:29 Deb             facebook is already there, has members.
21:29 V               Thanks, custard and rach.
21:29 JoRansom        ok
21:29 slef            There's three links at the bottom of http://koha.org/cgi-bin/logs.pl with moreinfo about kohala just now.
21:29 Deb             You can continue talking about facebook on the listserv
21:30 rosalie         Can we ask the Facebook members to join the Koha list?
21:30 Deb             Do you want to have another virtual meeting?
21:30 fbcit           hehe
21:30 V               Facebook has members, but we'd rather not use it.
21:30 Deb             yes rosalie we can.
21:30 JoRansom        I think so. Maybe a slightly more formal agenda perhaps to struture our discussion?
21:30 custard         There is a saying "Cats are people too" :)
21:30 gmcharlt        Deb: yeah, IRC is often this -- agree with JoRansom that an agenda helps
21:30 slef            Deb: you have to ask people to shut up on here i fyou want.  They can't see the facilitator waving or looking at someone else.
21:31 Deb             i have cats!!!!
21:31 custard         so do I. And they're being quite vocal about breakfast at the moment.
21:31 V               Deb, yes, us!
21:31 irma            My interest is spending time on how I can serve the library users better...
21:32 Deb             irma what do you mean by 'users?
21:32 V               Thank you, irma.
21:32 rosalie         Gotta go. Talk to yu on the Koha list
21:32 Deb             v what are you saying yes to?
21:32 irma            There are so many new Web 2.0 technologies out there, a community to discuss how to addd them to Koha would be great
21:32 slef            Deb: we are your cats, according to V
21:32 V               We're your cats. :-)
21:32 JoRansom        irma: good.
21:32 Deb             oh gottcha.
21:32 JoRansom        so discussing future developments? enhancements? wish lists?
21:32 irma            users: library patrons, members, staff...
21:33 Deb             irma there's a great web 2.0 blog thing  I'll send it to you
21:33 JoRansom        brianstorming of what could b e with koha?
21:33 Deb             joransom sounds great!
21:33 JoRansom        developers lifting the general ideas up to a plan for implementation.
21:33 JoRansom        a bunch of us pitching to fund it coz we think its good.
21:34 irma            exactly!
21:34 Deb             yes joransom! That'd be great.
21:34 JoRansom        that is what I would love to see.
21:34 Deb             Do you feel we need to go beyond the typical module ILS and expand into
21:34 Deb             things that are more google-like?
21:34 JoRansom        developers and librarians working together to enhance koha, and a bunch of us funding the work to the development companies
21:34 irma            Librarians can be very isolated and yet have patrons with advanced requests to satisfy!
21:35 rach            just so you know, people on facebook are directed back to the mailing list
21:35 Deb             Yes irma!
21:35 JoRansom        I like Irma.
21:35 Deb             The mailing list they're directed back to is the Kudos mailing list, not the koha mailing list.
21:35 Deb             I don't know if I can add two.
21:35 JoRansom        it nneds to be the koha list
21:36 Deb             ok
21:36 rach            http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6381238597
21:36 rach            is the facebook group I'm looking at
21:36 JoRansom        which is different to the kudos one?
21:36 custard         so at the momment, were still sounding the scope of kudos, yes/no?
21:36 randym          rach: this the facebook they are talking about http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6719777668
21:37 slef            Best place to discuss Koha is the Koha Mailing List
21:37 slef            2 posts by 2 people. Updated on Nov 21, 2007 at 4:06
21:37 Deb             That's not the one.
21:37 Deb             It's this one http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6719777668
21:38 rach            http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6719777668
21:38 Deb             it's the koha users group
21:38 JoRansom        I'm off: faceboiok sounds a confusing mess already!
21:39 Deb             only for developers.
21:39 irma            is there an established IRC # KUDOS? So instread of going to #koha to ask about Library Thing (for example) I would see if anyone in on the #KUDOS channel?
21:39 irma            instread = instead
21:39 Deb             no there's no IRC channel for KUDOS.
21:40 irma            I see.
21:40 Deb             The #koha channel said this channel was available for this meeting.
21:40 rach            but it is easy to set up
21:40 Deb             I thought of setting up an IRC for KUDOS but the responses were to use this channel.
21:40 irma            sure but people can leave the #koha channel and go talk in another room anytime
21:40 slef            it's easy to set up forums... the hard part is finding the right one
21:41 Deb             And the developers on this channel at that time agreed.
21:41 rach            if you type /join #kudos now, you'll join a kudos channel
21:41 Deb             if I do that will I still come back here?
21:41 rach            this channel is good because it's logged, and we've got the automatic helper things on the website to get people to it
21:42 slef            Depends on your IRC software.  It might just open a new tab and you can flip between them.
21:42 rach            you can have multiple channels running at the same time
21:42 irma            what about the log of both channels? Can they be linked and available to all?
21:42 Deb             Yes, the developers said it was not an inconvenience.
21:42 Deb             If they need another channel they would make one.
21:42 rach            it's not, they would all want to watch the meeting anyway, so it's no problem to have this here
21:42 Deb             I believe it was atz and gmcharlt who said this.
21:42 rach            yep
21:43 irma            rach: what about the logs?
21:43 Deb             why do they want to watch and not participate?
21:43 rach            only # koha is automatically logged, if a #kudos was going to be useful then loggin would need to be done
21:43 irma            can the log of the KUDOS be like an attachment to the log of #KOHA?
21:43 rach            perhaps if they felt there was anything they needed to say they would jump in
21:44 Deb             Yes, I looked into creating a KUDOS channel on freenode.
21:44 Deb             oh.
21:44 custard         because sometimes people set meetings up that will be at 5 in the morning, and most people wouldn't get up for that. that's why you might want to log it.
21:44 rach            irma: no they would be 2 seperate logs
21:44 rach            the logs don't "finish" they just keep rolling by :-)
21:45 irma            Rach: thank you and in my opinion it is best to then only have one channel and one log: the #KOHA.
21:45 rach            or they have work/meetings etc that they need to be at
21:45 Deb             ok
21:45 irma            I must say cheers and thank you. All the best. A bientot!
21:46 Deb             You all have been wonderful today.
21:46 Deb             Thank you all.  I will share this with John and Joshua.
21:46 V               Glad to be here and "meet" one and all.
21:46 custard         thanks, for this it's been interesting.
21:46 Deb             Hope I talk with all of you again!
21:46 mouk            bye bye!
21:46 custard         Deb: Thanks, for orgasing.
21:46 Deb             Toodles!
21:46 V               Bye.
21:46 custard         organising.
21:46 Deb             no problem
21:46 mouk            orgasing?
21:46 gmcharlt        Deb++
21:47 Deb             thanks gmcharlt
21:47 custard         poot. was hoping to ask irma something.
21:47 Deb             woot!
21:47 Deb             custard you can get irma via email or the list you know
21:47 Deb             Well, I'm off. Thanks all.
21:47 custard         true.
21:48 slef            mouk: stop thinking that.
21:48 mouk            haha
21:48 Deb             slef you are too fast for me
21:48 Deb             I didn't catch that at all until you said something
21:48 mouk            well, it's later in the evening here ;)
21:49 slef            mouk: that doesn't mean you *have* to watch D:SF
21:49 mouk            haha
21:49 Deb             slef you'rein the UK right?
21:49 custard         ok, so i got caught between wanting to finish a line and wanting to stat another...
21:49 slef            Deb: yes.
21:50 Deb             where in the UK?
21:50 custard         right I'm going to catch a kip before "waking up" for the rest of the day.
21:50 Deb             I nearly called you this morning and realized I had no idea what time it was there.
21:50 slef            Deb: Somerset, England.
21:50 Deb             ohhhh
21:51 Deb             pretty
21:51 slef            Deb: the other side of the channel from Cardiff (I can see it)
21:51 slef            (well, except with all the fog at this time of year)
21:51 Deb             I study english lit, poetry, etc.
21:51 Deb             and a ton of other stuff too
21:52 Deb             well I better go.
21:52 Deb             slef I'll email you the facebook info ok?
21:52 slef            I'm from near Oxford, so naturally I detest poetry and butcher the language often ;-)
21:52 slef            Deb: OK... or spot me in the group members list now.
21:53 rickw           thanks to all ... gotta return to meatspace
21:53 Deb             I'll find you slef and thanks.
21:53 Deb             gotta jet!
21:53 slef            nice place.  Much warmer than Cambridge.  thanks. bye
21:54 chris           wow .. well that was ... something
21:55 mouk            refill wine glass, here :)
22:02 chris           dressing the kid
22:10 chris           back
22:13 CGI821          quit
22:14 custard         yes something indeed.
22:24 chris           i notice a message on the koha lists, someone is trying to start a kenyan user group, i think regional/national (like john brice was saying about kudos) is the best way to start
22:24 rach            yes i think that being able to meet in person (or at least feel like you could :-) is really valuable
22:26 gmcharlt        yeah, and in the states ALA and PLA conferences provide a good excuse for that sort of thing
22:26 rach            and you might actually do things - but you need some critical mass I guess, is harder if you're the only one in your region who is using koha
22:26 chris           *nod*
22:26 rach            has the call for an organised koha users group come from koha users?
22:27 chris           it was originally a call for a US users group
22:27 chris           and came from john brice, who is a user
22:27 chris           but it kinda morphed into this all things for all people
22:28 chris           which will never happen :)
22:28 rach            yeah that won't work
22:29 chris           theres no reason that once its up and running and working well, it couldnt expand .. or that some agreement between say kohala (the french group) and kudos and the kenyans and whoever else
22:29 chris           couldnt be worked out and that would be the beginnings of a koha foundation
22:29 rach            interesting thought that it's for a developers as well
22:29 rach            oh and are you still going to nepal? or has that fallen trhough?
22:29 chris           fallen through
22:30 chris           3rd week of work at the new job and all
22:30 rach            ah right
22:30 chris           plus i have henry's wedding in march too
22:30 custard         could it could function as an umbrella group?
22:30 rach            they must be gutted, anyone else going to be able to take your place?
22:30 chris           custard: potentially in the future .. once it had proved itself a bit :)
22:31 chris           rach: i suggested a couple of the india koha users
22:31 chris           they have been running koha training sessions in india .. lot closer :-)
22:32 gmcharlt        rach: I hope it remians for both users and developers -- ideally, at least some of the libraries would be funding or hiring their own programmers
22:33 rach            developers as distinct from vendors? or both
22:33 Rosa            that's an intersting distinction, rach
22:33 gmcharlt        rach: I hope both
22:37 gmcharlt        understood; in my opinion I hope that KUDOS (if constituted as a US users group) stays focused on Koha and/or library open source and libre software
22:37 gmcharlt        and not any particular vendor or set of programmers
22:37 jo              I agree.
22:37 jo              really important.
22:38 jo              and if not then it sis clear in identifying itself as a liblime-koha users group.
22:39 gmcharlt        jo: agreed