Time  Nick   Message
13:26 Brooke howdy
13:26 dewey  what's up, Brooke
13:26 Brooke not much
13:26 Brooke how's it going?
14:00 Brooke howdy
14:03 slef   hi all
14:03 slef   /names
14:03 [K]    *** #koha@FreeNode names: [K] rangi ru55el
14:03 kados  hey slef
14:04 kados  slef: we didn't announce the git move primarily because we're still leanring how to use it
14:04 kados  slef: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:development:git_usage
14:04 slef   is CVS still live?
14:04 kados  slef: http://git.koha.org
14:04 kados  CVS still exists, but we're not using it
14:04 kados  we meaning paul and liblime
14:05 kados  looks like sanop have just committed some stuff there
14:05 kados  which one of us will have to port to git
14:05 slef   you're not using the serene tree which pulls from CVS?
14:05 paul   kados : seems that what sanop commited today is just an indenting stuff
14:05 paul   (hello kados & slef however)
14:05 slef   paul: you mean indent changes only?
14:06 kados  paul: ahh, ok, maybe we can just do perltidy?
14:06 paul   slef : yes.
14:06 paul   kados : maybe (even if I think hard to read perltidyed code)
14:06 paul   i'll become more confident in the next weeks I think
14:06 slef   (not to koha)
14:06 paul   LART ?
14:07 slef   Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool
14:07 slef   Also known as a 'clue-by-four'
14:07 slef   looks surprisingly like a plank
14:07 slef   I don't think they'll do it again ;-)
14:09 paul   kados : mail sent to your mailbox, about patches management.
14:11 kados  paul: checking
14:12 paul   hdl coming back from Dakar (senegal) today... (an IFLA conference : http://www.dakar.aliaco.com/)
14:12 kados  cool
14:13 kados  sweet
14:13 slef   can anyone tell me whether this URL prompts them what to save as:
14:14 kados  slef: I committed one fix to git that was causing that
14:14 kados  it was because the content-type was wrong
14:15 kados  http://git.koha.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=Koha;a=commit;h=836b9857ed9d6ff51a8d9da088b44dac9154fefb
14:16 kados  this was the problem line:
14:16 kados  +        -type    => 'text/html; charset=utf-8',
14:16 kados  -        -type   => 'utf-8',
14:16 kados  -        -cookie => $cookie
14:16 kados  +        -type    => 'text/html; charset=utf-8',
14:16 kados  sorr
14:16 kados  sorry
14:16 kados  my internet's acting up
14:17 slef   owowow Lang just rude into the barrier horizontal
14:19 slef   kados: that's a problem, but I don't think it causes this
14:19 slef   can anyone tell me whether this URL prompts them what to save as:
14:19 slef   http://11ns.co.uk/cgi-bin/koha/z3950/search.pl?oldbiblionumber=&isbn=0521606322
14:20 kados  not in firefox
14:20 slef   (by the way, z3950/search.pl seems not to check librarian authentication)
14:20 slef   phone
14:20 paul   not in ff for me either.
14:20 kados  wait
14:20 kados  if I click 'search internet' it does
14:24 paul   same behaviour on konqueror.
14:24 paul   the IES when you click may be an Auth problem...
14:28 slef   off-phone
14:28 slef   ah, yes, it does for me when I click search
14:32 slef   the z39.50 search is erroring and the script is crashing
14:35 slef   download is 0-bytes
14:35 slef   download seems to be prompted by apache
14:35 slef   so everyone's sort-of-right
14:36 kados  paul: all your stuff should be pushed to git.koha.org
14:36 kados  paul: can you verify?
14:37 paul   (but my suggestion about mails is still valid...)
14:37 kados  yes I agree
14:37 kados  we also need a better test procedure, between chris and I
14:37 slef   USA's Leipheimer sets new best time (individual time trial)
14:37 kados  because IMO every piece of code should be tested before pushed to git.koha.org
14:37 kados  not just eyeballed
14:38 paul   that will be a huge huge stuff...
14:38 slef   leader Jens Voigt just set a best time at the intermediate check, though...
14:38 slef   kados++
14:40 slef   hrm, even if I feed my z search garbage, it doesn't break like that
14:40 kados  paul: what do you think the role of updatedatabase is?
14:41 paul   update the datatabase between 2 versions
14:41 paul   minor or major ones.
14:41 paul   except "super major" (koha 3.x => koha 4.x)
14:42 kados  afaik, the updatedatabase in 3.0 curently is worthless
14:42 paul   why ?
14:42 kados  unless you know something I don't
14:42 kados  well, #1, we don't have  stable database definition
14:42 kados  for 3.0
14:42 kados  and #2, it has old database defs from 2.2, etc.
14:43 paul   it does 90% of the upgrade from 2.2 to 3.0. The 10% missing being the specific stuff to create marcxml and move some fields.
14:44 kados  one library, that uses a small subset of features
14:44 paul   Idid EXACTLY what is written on : 22_to_30 wiki page
14:44 kados  and only unimarc ;-)
14:44 paul   yep, but the unimarc specific stuff is really small.
14:45 kados  I bet that:
14:45 kados  1. 2.2 -> updatedatabase -> 3.0
14:45 kados  2. koha < kohastructure.sql (via installer)
14:45 kados  1 != 2
14:47 Brooke grrr
14:47 kados  I bet that  2.2 -> updatedatabase -> 3.0 results in a different database structure than kohastructure.sql
14:47 Brooke If I had $ I'd take a French course
14:47 Brooke and a CSI course
14:47 kados  heh
14:47 paul   (CSI course ???)
14:47 Brooke Informatique
14:48 paul   in some indexes & maybe a few foreign keys you're probably right.
14:48 paul   but not more than this (or i made something wrong, which is always possible ;-) )
14:49 kados  Brooke: would you be willing to test migrating from 2.2. to 3.0?
14:50 kados  Brooke: on a non-production system of course
14:50 Brooke what's this non production system you speak of?
14:50 paul   I have 3 or 4 migrations from 22 to 30 to come in september...
14:50 kados  hehe
14:50 Brooke I don't see why not
14:50 Brooke I can nag me husband to do it
14:51 Brooke are the files out there someplace in the aether?
14:52 kados  Brooke: sort of
14:52 kados  Brooke: http://git.koha.org
14:53 kados  we don't have a release packaged yet
14:53 kados  slef: how's the installer coming?
14:53 slef   kados: working on it this afternoon after text/x-perl
14:53 kados  slef++
14:53 paul   slef +++++
14:53 kados  paul: how is re-writing borrower management coming? :-)
14:54 kados  paul: and have you seen bug reports from owen?
14:54 paul   ??? you're waiting for me to do it ???
14:54 paul   yes about the bug reports from owen.
14:54 kados  paul: and have you tested the authorities editor, we can't get it working
14:54 kados  ahh, I thought you were re-writing borrowers
14:54 paul   mmm... works fine on my setup...
14:54 kados  I may have missunderstood
14:55 paul   http://i15.bureau.paulpoulain.com/cgi-bin/koha/authorities/authorities.pl
14:55 paul   (abel/abel)
14:55 paul   no, I thought YOU were rewritting borrowers.
14:55 kados  hehe
14:56 kados  paul: would you like to see what happens running the installer, importing authorities, and trying authorities.pl?
14:56 paul   you showed me something few months ago, saying the code size dropped from 1500 to 250 lines iirc
14:56 kados  I will give you access to my vhost
14:57 paul   hdl should have some time to devote to you next week
14:57 kados  1. remove all features that are broken
14:57 kados  2. delay the release further
14:57 paul   3. release a beta, with the list of what is broken, and delay the stable release a little
14:58 kados  I'd consider #3, but not with major features broken
14:58 paul   1. seems impossible to me...
14:59 Brooke I like 4
14:59 Brooke opps
14:59 Brooke 3
14:59 kados  if minor parts of a feature are not working, that's fine
14:59 kados  but when major features are just throwing 500 errors by default
14:59 kados  that's just going to spread FUD
15:00 slef   we need a general 500-catcher
15:00 kados  slef: people just need to test their code more :-)
15:00 paul   wow... 500 errors ? I haven't seen that since months. Maybe it's because i'm working with a 22 => 3.0 database...
15:00 slef   kados: what works one place won't work for another - witness this z problem
15:01 kados  paul: and that's why we have a problem :-)
15:01 kados  paul: that's why I don't trust updatedatabase :-)
15:01 kados  I think that kohastructure.sql != updatedatabase
15:01 paul   why do you trust more kohastructure.sql than 22+updatedatabase ?
15:01 kados  there should be one authoritative place for the sql definition for 3.0
15:02 kados  not two
15:02 kados  paul: I only trust it more because it's readable
15:02 kados  paul: updatedatabase isn't readable without spending 3 hours reading it :-)
15:02 kados  I can't just go look up the structure of table X for instnace
15:05 slef   you can, but it's in N parts
15:06 kados  yea
15:06 kados  the point is, we're all working off a different database structure
15:08 paul   kados : would it be usefull for you to have ipt sql structure ?
15:08 kados  yep
15:08 kados  and sanop too
15:08 kados  and whatever other koha systems you have installed too
15:11 kados  paul: features should work after a stock installation IMO
15:12 paul   stock ?
15:12 kados  when I run the web installer on a brand new install
15:12 kados  all major modules should compile and run the basic functions of the module
15:12 kados  that's my definition of a 'beta'
15:12 paul   agree.
15:13 Brooke hooray agreement
15:13 Brooke :)
15:13 kados  stable is when all major modules compile, and all functions work
15:13 kados  when I can run the installer and have all features working, I'll release 3.0 beta
15:13 Brooke sooo emmmm
15:13 Brooke as a whiny user
15:13 Brooke when should we stop getting listened to in favour of the current features getting ironed out before new features are added?
15:14 kados  paul: because it was broken
15:14 Brooke I mean, you guys seem too nice to us.
15:14 paul   Brooke: that's difficult, because libraries are always OK to fund new features, never to sponsor fixing ones :\
15:14 kados  paul: it caused the web installer to crash
15:14 kados  paul: you can try it from the CVS version if you like
15:15 Brooke *nod*
15:15 Brooke I realise that you have to eat
15:15 paul   how did you build the actual kohastructure.sql ?
15:15 Brooke but should there be a point where folks scream no more new features til we fix the old?
15:16 kados  paul: I just reverted and I've been adding minor changes manually since then
15:16 kados  IMO, from here on out, the kohastructure.sql should be edited manually
15:17 kados  and not the restul of a sql dump
15:17 kados  thx
15:18 kados  slef: you voiced an opinion on this on the koha-devel list IIRC
15:18 Brooke hmmmm
15:18 Brooke I have a perhaps stupid ide
15:18 Brooke a
15:18 paul   i've kdiff3-ed the 2 sql. there are a lot of differences :
15:18 Brooke if Libraries sign on for a new feature
15:18 Brooke can part of the fee automatically go to fixing an old?
15:18 paul   - 80% of them are varchar <=> char. not a problem, but strange. Maybe a consequence of a mySQL setup ?
15:19 paul   - some are table that can be removes (5-6 on my side, 2-3 on your side)
15:19 paul   - some are foreign keys missing on my side
15:19 paul   - 3 missing columns on my side (the one recently added by hdl)
15:20 paul   only the foreign keys are important I think
15:22 kados  paul: how do we know what tables can be removed?
15:22 paul   because they are useless :-D
15:22 paul   like "websites"
15:22 paul   and marc_biblio
15:22 dewey  somebody said marc_biblio was where you can find the relationship between marc_subfield_table.bibid and biblioitems.biblionumber in the 2.2 series of Koha
15:22 paul   wait, wait...
15:23 paul   all my foreign key constraints are at the end of the dump.
15:23 paul   I don't know why...
15:23 paul   so there may be only a few diffs...
15:23 paul   kados : I suggest :
15:23 paul   -create database ipt
15:23 paul   - mysql ipt <ipt3(2).sql
15:23 paul   - mtysqldump ipt >ipt3(3).sql
15:24 paul   -mysqldump yourdb >yourdb.sql
15:24 paul   - kdiff3 ipt3(3).sql yourdb.sql
15:24 kados  *nod*
15:24 paul   so you'll have the same dump look...
15:24 paul   (you'll see some mysql text in french at the en as well ;-) )
15:26 kados  slef: what were the mysqldump options you preferred?
15:26 slef   Yes, I think the sql should be hand-maintained along with a changelog written in sql or perl as far as possible
15:26 slef   erm
15:28 slef   -cdQ at least, maybe --compatible=ansi if you're using mysql-5
15:30 slef   does/how does git.koha.org relate to the serene git?
15:30 kados  slef: serene git?
15:31 slef   git://serene.ttllp.co.uk/opt/koha.git/
15:31 kados  slef: I don't think it relates at all
15:31 slef   Announced in http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/koha-devel/2007-06/msg00008.html
15:31 kados  slef: you'd ahve to ask chris though
15:31 kados  I think we did a cvs convert ourselves
15:32 slef   well that makes my life less simple...
15:32 kados  best wait for chris next week
15:32 kados  he can tell you how he did it
15:32 kados  I wasn't around that day
15:33 slef   can you please announce developments to koha-devel?
15:33 slef   even if they're not ready/final
15:34 kados  slef: I plan to announce git to koha-devel this weekend
15:34 slef   else it burns others
15:35 slef   but you said we need chris next week to say how it relates to users of the current git?
15:37 kados  who uses the current git?
15:37 kados  I didn't realize that was a production git
15:37 slef   don't know... it's public and I've not been following the logs
15:38 kados  paul: importing iptdb now
15:39 kados  paul: will mysqldump and diff shortly
15:40 slef   hrm, that was probably an error... doesn't look like it's logged
15:44 kados  paul: would it be worth having a meeting to go through kohastructure in detail and make choices?
15:45 kados  even things like meduimtext vs text should be decided for official 3.0
15:45 kados  and what default values should be
15:46 kados  and which constraints to use
15:46 kados  varchar vs char
15:47 kados  there are column differences for some tables too
15:47 kados  paul: ?
15:48 Brooke I'm off like a prom dress
15:48 Brooke I've to go to "work"
15:48 kados  hehe
15:48 kados  Brooke: cya
15:49 paul   varchar vs char = I think it's a mysql version choice. iirc, for char <=3, it doen's matter, mysql does always char. otherwise, it's just the way mySQL stores the value internally.
15:49 paul   mediumtext vs text = should always be longtext imho
15:49 paul   as text is SMALLtext iirc...
15:49 paul   I had some problems storing long marcxml (with +100 items iirc)
15:49 kados  paul: shouldn't we have a meeting and step through each table?
15:50 kados  I see about twice as many constraints in ipt
15:51 kados  slef: ?
15:51 paul   otherwise, agree about a meeting, and constraint definitions.
15:51 paul   twice as many constraints in ipt ???
15:51 kados  quite a few more are defined in ipt db
15:56 kados  paul: kados.org/stuff/kohastructure-ipt.sql
15:56 kados  paul: for instance, look at the constraints on accountlines
15:57 kados  paul: compare to  kados.org/stuff/kohastructure.sql
15:57 paul   constraints missing should not cause Koha bugs externally. We may have problems with constraints, not without. (but that's fine : we can detect bugs or errors thanks to constraints)
15:57 paul   sorry guys, i've been disconnected...
15:57 paul   I said :
15:57 paul   constraints missing should not cause Koha bugs externally. We may have problems with constraints, not without. (but that's fine : we can detect bugs or errors thanks to constraints)
15:57 paul   jmf : your kohastructure is marked "mySQL 4.1.x". Aren't you using mySQL 5 ?
15:58 paul    (that may be an explanation too)
15:58 kados  the kohastructure is not 'mine'
15:58 paul   and havent recieved any answer
15:58 kados  I didn't create it
15:58 kados  answer?
15:58 dewey  answer is usually yes
15:59 paul   nothing after my sentence (1mn disconnected, I may have missed something)
15:59 kados  can you look at the kohastructure-ipt.sql
15:59 paul   where ?
15:59 paul   on my desktop ?
15:59 kados  maybe irc is acting up :-)
15:59 kados  kados.org/stuff/
15:59 kados  kohastructure-ipt.sql
15:59 kados  oops
15:59 kados  kados.org/stuff/kohastructure-ipt.sql
16:00 slef   kados?
16:00 dewey  kados is probably champion alligator-wrestler in 7 counties
16:00 kados  look at the 5 constraints on accountlines for instance
16:00 kados  dewey: botsnack
16:00 dewey  :)
16:00 kados  paul: are all 5 of them meaningful?
16:00 kados  it seems to me only 2 are
16:01 kados  slef: do you think we should have a meeting to go through the kohastructure?
16:01 slef   sounds a good idea, but paul is away 10 days?
16:02 kados  yea, maybe when he gets back?
16:02 slef   so two weeks today?
16:02 kados  that works for me
16:02 kados  paul: is that a good date for you too?
16:02 paul   kados : right, fk2, fk3, fk4 and fk5 are the same. silly
16:02 paul   but probably not causing harm
16:03 paul   aug, 31 then ?
16:03 paul   OK for me.
16:03 kados  cool
16:03 kados  I'll announce it on koha-devel
16:04 kados  paul: have a good trip
16:04 paul   what time ?
16:04 dewey  somebody said time was 648
16:04 paul   18GMT ?
16:04 paul   (6PM GMT)
16:04 paul   ok for me, when you want
16:04 kados  18:00 GMT works for me
16:05 kados  slef: ?
16:05 kados  earlier for slef?
16:05 paul   okfor me
16:05 slef   before 16GMT if possible, but I'll do 1800 if there's no better time
16:05 paul   except 5GMT,because it's dinner time.
16:05 paul   4PM GMT is OK
16:05 kados  for me too
16:05 slef   paul: you eat dinner before breakfast? ;-)
16:06 paul   :-D
16:07 kados  slef: I'd like to talk abotu the installer when you have a chance
16:07 kados  slef: is today good for that?
16:08 slef   yes, as soon as I've finished slapping this disk and then kicked the other storage
16:08 paul   bye bye kados, see you in 2 weeks then
16:08 slef   bye paul... safe journey
16:36 slef   ok, I think that's all working now
16:36 slef   I know I've an email about the installer awaiting reply, by the way
16:37 slef   but I'll talk anyway
16:37 kados  yea, I wasn't sure how to respond to that email actually
16:37 kados  lemme pull it up
16:38 kados  what's the subject again?
16:38 kados  Development Schedule? that one?
16:39 slef   searching...
16:42 slef   Message-ID: <18380450.2021183984919108.JavaMail.root@mail.liblime.com>
16:43 slef   sorry for the delay
16:44 kados  my mail client doesn't work wtih message ids
16:44 kados  subject?
16:44 slef   the one you said
16:44 slef   Development Schedule
16:44 kados  k
16:44 slef   oh, I see another tab
16:45 kados  I did respond btw ;-)
16:45 slef   seems old
16:45 kados  Jul 9th
16:45 slef   "more coming soon"?
16:45 kados  yea
16:45 kados  this is it mate :-)
16:45 slef   is this the more?
16:45 slef   ok
16:45 slef   cool
16:46 kados  so what do you think about the comments first off
16:46 slef   I've stopped it running the tests and I disagree that it's the installer's job to be the INSTALL instructions
16:46 kados  ahh, ok
16:46 kados  so lets identify the elements of an install and roles of those elements
16:46 slef   but anyway, if we make this CPAN-friendly, the installer should be able to trigger the installation of the prereqs itself
16:46 kados  to make sure we have expectations set properly
16:47 kados  triggering would be nice
16:47 kados  there are some things that can't be installed from CPAN obviously
16:47 kados  like zebra
16:48 slef   indeed.  should be a 1% job to add those to the packaging
16:48 kados  do we test for those things currently?
16:48 slef   not directly, but could
16:48 kados  there is a list of them in the install.pl file
16:48 kados  but I'm not sure if hdl's method of testing is portable
16:49 slef   what would I look for? A zebra binary?
16:49 kados  and whether there is a portable way of doing that anyway ...
16:49 kados  that's a good question
16:49 kados  I'm not sure how to handle that in a portable way
16:49 slef   might be safer to leave it to the packaging system
16:49 slef   (s)
16:51 kados  slef: ping me when you're back
17:13 thd    kados: have we switched to git?
17:13 kados  thd: we have
17:14 kados  thd: announcement forthcoming
17:14 thd    kados: so my CVS commits will have no effect?
17:15 kados  well, someone has to manually merge them with git
17:15 kados  so far there have only been 5-6 or so
17:17 thd    I am about to commit another 6
17:20 kados  hmmm
17:20 kados  thd: do you have git installed?
17:25 slef   phone
17:25 thd    not yet
18:33 thd    kados: so I have committed to CVS.  I will have to learn git later.  marc21_simple_bib_frameworks.sql now has authority links in CVS.
18:38 kados  thanks thd
18:39 kados  thd: does it also have the extra column for default value?
18:39 thd    kados: the copy in HEAD does
18:42 thd    kados: all 10 frameworks files for rel_2_2 and HEAD have been updated
18:43 thd    s/10/10 MARC 21/
18:44 thd    kados: the only thing missing is last year's MARC 21 bibliographic format changes which were announced a few months ago.
18:53 kados  thd: I'll update git
18:53 kados  thd: thanks!
20:06 slef   hahahaha
20:07 slef   ---- Unsatisfied dependencies detected during [K/KO/KOHA/koha-2.9.2007081719.tar.gz] -----
20:07 slef   Shall I follow them and prepend them to the queue of modules we are processing right now? [yes]
20:07 slef   now that's what I call music!
04:15 [K]    *** join #koha@FreeNode: ru55el n=russel@203-118-134-114.netspace.net.nz