Time  Nick    Message
12:51 owen    kados around?
14:17 kados   owen: am now
14:21 hdl     hi kados.
14:21 kados   hey hdl
14:21 hdl     how are you ?
14:21 kados   hdl: I am warming to the idea of a DVS like git
14:22 hdl     Did you try to install git ?
14:22 kados   I can't find a debian package :-)
14:22 kados   hw about you?
14:22 kados   (I was about to try it now)
14:25 owen    kados: http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=183079
14:25 owen    I'm trying to figure out why the ISBN isn't coming through correctly to show the Amazon book cover
14:25 hdl     I did.
14:25 hdl     But had not time to play with it.
14:26 hdl     + cannot find gitweb interface.
14:26 hdl     It could be interesting.
14:27 hdl     But it would be still good to have a central common source
14:27 hdl     That we could refer to in case of crashes + major failures.
14:28 hdl     ReleaseManager-based solution would not be good.
14:28 kados   owen: I'll take a look
14:38 kyle    hey all, I'm trying to commit all the stuff I've been modifying since savannah went down. When I try to commit my new moremember.tmpl I get this message:
14:39 kyle    cvs [commit aborted]: could not find desired version 1.1.2.1.2.10 in /sources/koha/koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/ccfls/en/members/Attic/moremember.tmpl,v
14:39 kyle    any idea what's going on?
14:40 kados   kyle: did you see my latest email about Savannah?
14:41 kados   kyle: you will need to check out a fresh copy and merge the changes into that fresh copy
14:41 tumer   kyle:see irc logs about 12 hours ago, kados managed it
14:41 kados   then commit it
14:41 kados   I know it's a real pain
14:41 kados   sorry :/
14:42 kyle    Hey, no big deal.
14:42 kyle    thanks for the info
14:42 kados   np
14:13 kyle    Any opinion on what we should do when it comes to version control?
14:15 kados   I'm leaning towards a DVS personally
14:15 kados   I'm in the process of evaluating git
14:15 kados   I'll report back to koha-devel soon
14:15 kyle    git is used for the linux kernel, right?
14:15 kados   yep
14:16 hdl     Maybe storing the code in SouthAfrica, India, Uruguay or Brazil would be less one
14:16 hdl     Sory
14:16 kyle    cool, I await your results.
14:19 hdl     git seems to allow ppl to import from cvs  quite easily.
14:19 kados   yep
14:19 kyle    yes, and I see that it has cvs compatibility, as mentioned on the devel list
14:19 hdl     And export 1 commit from git to cvs is easy too.
14:20 hdl     + full come and go with svn
14:20 kyle    however, it seems to look at files like subversion does, rather than cvs
14:20 kyle    It only cares about the state of the entire branch, rather than having versions for individual files.
14:24 kados   kyle: *nod*
14:24 kados   kyle: any feelings on that difference?
14:25 kyle    Personally, I a slightly prefer the Subversion style, but in the end, there is very little difference. I'm using subversion for koha-tools.
14:27 kyle    So, instead of thinking "I need to revert prog.pl to version 1.2.000.3", I think "I need to revert prog.pl to the version from revision 181"
14:28 kados   yea
14:29 kyle    In a way it is much better because I can know that revision 180 was completely stable, and can revert the whole tree to 180 if I'm having serious issues with revision 181. I don't have to think about which files I need to roll back.
14:29 kyle    kados, have you used subversion on any projects?
14:29 kados   yep, we use svn inhouse at LL
14:30 kados   it's a huge improvement over CVS
14:30 kyle    I have to agree with that, kados++
14:30 kados   the real question I'm struggling with atm is whether we as a community have the resources to handle the DVS overhead
14:30 kados   of something like git
14:30 kyle    can you explain?
14:33 kados   the overhead? I'm still trying to work it out in practical terms :-)
14:34 kyle    do you mean overhead in manpower?
14:34 kados   but basically we'd be relying on the RM to do all the merges
14:34 rch     <blogquote>
14:34 kados   into the official release
14:34 rch     In short, one could say that Arch is centralized around a code integrator, and that Subversion (like CVS) is centralized around a repository.
14:34 rch     </blogquote>
14:34 kados   yea
14:34 kados   s/ARch/git/
14:34 kados   same model
14:35 kyle    it definitely looks like we would need someone full-time just managing commits from the way I read Jerry Van Baren's post to koha-devel
14:35 kados   yea
14:36 kados   kyle: I'd be curious to see his reaction if you posted that as a reply :-)
14:37 kyle    do you think he would disagree?
14:37 kados   honestly I dunno
14:37 kados   but I'm curious to see
14:37 kados   how he things that would work
14:37 kados   thinks even
14:37 kados   ultimately, we're a growing community
14:37 kyle    I will, it just seems like it would require more work from *everyone*
14:38 kados   and eventually we're gonna have to have full-time repository maintainers
14:38 kados   I'm just not certain we're there yet
14:38 kados   though I'm interested in the idea
14:38 kados   paul: hi
14:38 paul    we are not here yet ;-)
14:38 kados   hehe
14:38 kados   there are two issues at stake here as well:
14:39 kados   1. which VCS we use
14:39 kados   2. how we are coordinating as programmers on the same project
14:39 kados   I think #2 is more important
14:39 kyle    I agree, I don't think we are quite there yet, my opinion is switching to git would cost the community tons of development time that would have to be used for managing the git repository.
14:39 paul    kyle: ++
14:40 paul    and the community is really small...
14:40 kados   yep
14:40 kyle    thanks. You can also quote me as being pro-subversion.
14:40 paul    LibLime + me/hdl mainly, with SAN-OP & ccfls
14:41 paul    in France, 2 other companies made some announce to me that they are interested by Koha, but that's just announces atm
14:41 slef    kados: the wiki is double-escaping the link of its rss feed.  For example http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=kohawindownloads&amp;amp;do=diff1174035260
14:42 slef    hi all ;-)
14:44 kados   dokuwiki--
14:45 kados   paul_we: have a good weekend
14:45 paul_we thx.
14:45 slef    bonne fin de semaine
14:45 paul_we I've read Jerry VB mail. sounds very interesting but ... really unaffordable for us...
14:46 paul_we bye & read you on monday
14:46 kados   slef: so I'd like to have a frank talk about resources with you if you have a moment
14:46 kados   slef: basically, what paul just said
14:46 slef    kados: does this have to be logged?
14:46 kados   hehe
14:48 owen    Authorised?
14:49 slef    diff sort of resources, I think... no worries about discussing this in-channel
14:49 slef    sorry, I misunderstood
14:49 kados   so Jerry's post is prime example of my fear
14:49 kados   do we have the resources for all that extra overhead?
14:49 slef    I think that's a "it would be good to do ..." rather than "we must do ..."
14:50 slef    owen: I thought kados was touching me for money
14:51 kyle    it's also something we can do later, it seems that switching from CVS to Subversion to Git is not very hard.
14:51 slef    the git (scm) tool on debian is called git-core
14:51 slef    kyle: apart from having to replace all cvs-using tools with svn ones, you mean?
14:52 kados   slef: well that's quite simple
14:52 kados   slef: all you ned to do is s/cvs/svn/ for almost every command
14:52 kados   most of us use command line anyway
14:52 kados   IMO, we should minimally move to SVN
14:52 slef    No-one else uses an IDE?
14:52 kyle    yes, I meant the vcs itself. I would say that many cvs tools have nearly identical svc equivilents.
14:52 kados   we've outgrown CVS
14:52 rch     how about svk?
14:53 rch     best of both worlds?
14:53 kados   the real question on the table is whether we should go with a DVS
14:53 slef    rch: or worst of both?
14:53 rch     slef: right :)
14:54 slef    I'd expect there to be an Emacs plugin, but I've not got it (because I've been avoiding svn)
14:54 slef    I doubt there's wily tools for it.
14:54 owen    kyle: joe?
14:54 kados   kyle: for committing too?
14:55 kados   slef: the real question on the table is whether we should go with a DVS
14:55 dewey   i already had it that way, kados.
14:55 kyle    no, I was taught on joe, but I use it for *all* text editing.
14:55 kados   slef: so you're the primary advocate of a DVS ... can you confirm/deny the fear that we'll lose time with increased overhead?
14:55 slef    dewey: you're a nut.
14:55 dewey   slef: i'm not following you...
14:56 slef    kados: over CVS, we'll gain time.  Over SVN, I don't know (insufficient data).
14:57 kados   slef: we may need a very well defined method for development to convince us that we won't lose time
14:57 kados   ie, spell it out, how will this thing work
14:57 slef    kados: to me, bottom line is that we should be able to keep the CVS running in parallel in git fairly easily, and possibly with other DVS.  Anyone know about SVN+CVS in parallel?
14:57 kados   some real world examples, etc.
14:57 kados   sure, so there can be a CVS plugin , that's cool
14:58 kados   but I assume we'll want to actually develop with git
14:58 slef    there's both git's cvsserver and it can pull from and feed to the current cvs server, AFAICT
14:58 kados   otherwise we may as well stick with cvs
14:58 slef    so people move when they're ready
15:00 kados   so what repo would they be committing to?
15:00 slef    up to us
15:00 slef    I'd recommend git if everyone's ready to move
15:01 kados   slef: I need a use case scenerio ... not just 'up to us' :-)
15:01 slef    I'm trying to set this up on koha.mirrors.ttllp.co.uk but it's not happening today
15:01 slef    (as in, I'm trying and it's breaking on me for silly reasons)
15:02 slef    I think I'd recommend that we start with a common 3.0 repo
15:02 slef    not require paul to merge everything and then kados to merge it into the release
15:03 slef    If we want tougher release engineering, we can change to that later.
15:03 slef    But one change at a time, eh?
15:03 slef    So everyone can push to the central repo and put their work into the release
15:03 kados   well why git over SVN? can't we switch to git when we're ready?
15:03 kados   (just asking)
15:04 kados   (ie, if theres no immediate benefit, I'd just rather stick with a more widely understood VS)
15:05 slef    1/ SVN's a lot bigger than CVS; 2/ switching has a cost and will you really go for it twice in a short time frame; 3/ I've never switched an SVN repo to git, so I don't know how well or not it works.
15:05 kados   ok, 2, 3 I grok
15:05 slef    The immediate benefit is disconnected development with local source control.
15:05 kados   1 ... define bigger?
15:06 slef    That's not a big benefit for the project, but it should be a big benefit for some developers
15:06 slef    like, when the master repo vanishes.
15:06 kyle    there does appear to be a git-svnimport program
15:06 kados   right
15:06 slef    kyle: yes.  No git-svnserver yet, though?
15:07 slef    kyle: and I don't remember whether there's an svnexportcommit
15:07 kyle    I see. I understand now. If we switched from cvs to git, would could use the same cvs tools. But if we switched from cvs to svn to git, we'd have to use git tools or go back to cvs tools.
15:08 kyle    am I right?
15:08 slef    kados: 1. bigger... the libs and binaries are bigger and the repo is more complicated AIUI (=harder to rescue manually)
15:08 slef    kyle: Maybe.  I simply don't know because I've not done a svn->git move.
15:08 slef    kyle: that's my worry, though.
15:09 kados   slef: ok, more questions :-)
15:09 kyle    slef: that is definitely and issue to think about. Are there plans for a get-svnserver?
15:09 slef    I've got to go for a bit.  I should be online again around 2000z.
15:09 kados   slef: how much energy will it take to maintain the repo itself? permissions on push, etc.?
15:09 slef    kados: are they long ones?
15:10 slef    kyle: not as far as I know, but I've not looked recently.
15:10 kados   slef: sorry, I'm trying to comprehend everything here :-)
15:10 kados   slef: this is an important decision
15:10 slef    kados: I do very little maintenance.  I'll give to koha whatever extra admin is required.
15:10 kados   slef: :-)
15:10 slef    kados: yes, understood.
15:10 slef    kados: I've been slacking, but I've now a very promising couple of koha projects again.
15:11 kados   ok
15:11 kados   lets set up git.koha.org
15:11 slef    (the customer for one of my koha projects went into liquidation a while ago... not a happy time)
15:11 kados   and do som tests
15:12 kados   slef: you have some bandwidth to help me out setting that up?
15:12 slef    kados: yes.  Do I have time to get my mirror of CVS up first?
15:12 kados   sure
15:13 slef    How long will it take?  #<undefined> sadly.
15:13 kados   just use my rsync command
15:13 slef    Right, I'd best go see to the person at the door before I get lynched.
15:13 kados   it took about 3 minutes
15:14 slef    see, evil and useful
15:14 kados   hehe
15:14 kados   wouldn't it be easier to just set up a git repo with whatever's in cvs co -P koha ?
15:14 slef    I'll try to leave this client running (network permitting)
15:14 slef    kados: yes, but I want the change history
15:14 kados   ahh
15:14 slef    I'm greedy
15:14 kados   k, makes sense
15:15 kados   if you document the procedure I'd be grateful
15:15 slef    k willdo
15:15 slef    chris probably has a less awkward server and will beat me to it while I sleep ;-)
15:20 kados   kyle: you still a student?
15:20 kados   kyle: if so, you should apply for GSoC
15:22 kyle    I'll be done with my master's in IT as soon as sping break is over and I can schedule my thesis defense.
15:22 kyle    I'm planning on getting a master's of phd in library science.
15:23 kyle    what's gsoc? I'm getting gopher state one call from google
15:23 kados   LibLime was accepted as a mentor for Google Summer of Code: http://code.google.com/soc
15:23 kyle    or gainesville sports commission ; )
15:23 kados   http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=googlesummerofcodeideas
15:23 kyle    cool.
15:24 kados   there's our list of ideas, but we're not limited to those, if you have any other things you'd like to work on
15:24 kados   but you should definitely do it
15:24 kados   really good on a resume too
15:25 kyle    I might do that.
15:30 kyle    I don't think I'll be eligable for GSoC, as I'm graduating within weeks of now.
15:31 kyle    doesn't hurt to give it a shot, though.
15:33 kyle    I definitely have the experience to write a CDS/ISIS migration tool
15:51 kados   kyle++
16:31 rch     Git allows you to specify scripts called "hooks" to be run at certain points. You can use these, for example, to send all commits to the shared repository to a mailing list
16:32 kados   that's good
16:56 slef    I keep misreading gsoc as gsoh and wondering why USians have to apply for one.
16:57 owen    What's gsoh?
16:57 slef    Good Sense Of Humour... often seen in personal ads in the UK
17:00 owen    Homeland security now has strict rules on senses of humor. The application process is very rigorous
17:07 slef    I think if they had a time machine, the current board would go back and slap some past treasurer's silly
17:08 slef    s/er's/ers/
17:19 slef    hello pecisk
17:19 pecisk  hello
17:19 dewey   salut, pecisk
17:20 kados   hi pecisk
17:20 pecisk  hello dewey, kados :)
17:34 kados   slef: so wanna walk me through the process here?
17:35 slef    kados: OK.  Buy me a stable router?
17:35 kados   hehe
17:35 kados   so I just got a rsync of koha repo
17:35 slef    kados: I've not set up a net-facing read/write repo for a while
17:36 kados   rsync -avzru cvs.savannah.nongnu.org::sources/koha/ ./
17:39 slef    What do you want to do with it?
17:40 kados   I want to create a git repo now
17:40 kados   using git-cvsimport
17:40 slef    always a good start
17:41 slef    my other two main references are http://linux.yyz.us/git-howto.html and http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/everyday.html
17:43 slef    IIRC how one starts this: you make an empty dir, cd into it, git init, then do the git cvsimport with various options from the man page
17:46 kados   i find it annoying that while I can find git-cvsimport documentation I cant' find a package or source for it
17:53 slef    git-cvs in debian I think
17:53 kados   yay
17:53 slef    and that should install cvsps
17:54 kados   any real advantage for us of running a version later than 1.4.4 which ships with etch?
17:54 slef    I know the git packages moderately well because of the git vs git-core thing.
17:54 kados   yea, that threw me :-)
17:55 slef    I doubt it, as if there was a serious problem, the new one would have been allowed in through the freeze
17:55 kados   k
17:57 kados   git-cvsimport -o HEAD -d koha_repo -C koha-git
17:57 kados   giving me a Usage report :-)
17:57 kados   sigh
17:57 slef    koha_repo should be :local:... or similar
17:57 slef    phone brb
17:59 kados   git-cvsimport -d:ext:kados@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha -C koha-git
17:59 kados   still reports usage
18:01 slef    have you cd'd into the git dir?
18:02 slef    do so and don't give the -C
18:02 kados   nope
18:02 kados   ok
18:02 kados   same deal
18:02 kados   just prints Usage
18:03 slef    -v it?
18:03 slef    add -v even
18:03 kados   same deal
18:07 slef    git cvsimport -d :ext:slef@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha -o HEAD .
18:07 slef    s/slef/kados
18:07 kados   k
18:07 slef    nope
18:07 slef    man page is out of date
18:07 kados   hehe
18:07 kados   looks like pubkey probs
18:09 slef    damn, got to go out... want to figure out why this won't work on a clean copy
18:12 slef    bah... commit a dummy file (touch this_is_git && git add this_is_git && git commit -m init) and then run git cvsimport -d :ext:slef@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha -o master .
18:12 slef    biab
18:21 kados   slef: git-cvsimport -d :ext:kados@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha -o master .
19:27 slef    love this network
19:29 slef    so before I left, I got the cvsimport command wrong :)  I need to write this down and step through it myself
19:32 kados   k
19:32 kados   this what I tried unsuccessfully:
19:32 kados   git-cvsimport -d :ext:kados@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha -o master .
19:33 slef    what's in your current working dir and how does it fail?
19:34 kados   it just hangs
19:34 kados   my cwd is koha-git
19:34 kados   which is empty
19:34 kados   I let it run for about an hour
19:35 kados   nothing happened
19:35 slef    odd
19:35 slef    add a -v and see what it's calling?
19:36 kados   intereating
19:36 kados   Branch 'master' does not exist.
19:36 kados   Either use the correct '-o branch' option,
19:36 kados   or import to a new repository.
19:36 kados   tried MAIN and HEAD
19:36 kados   without -o
19:36 kados   same message
19:36 slef    let's try this by the book
19:37 slef    touch this_is_git
19:37 slef    git add this_is_git
19:37 slef    git commit -m 'dummy initialisation'
19:37 slef    git branch origin
19:37 slef    git-cvsimport -d :ext:kados@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha .
19:37 kados   git commit -m 'dummy initialisation'
19:38 kados   Committing initial tree 115a9d25388ac903298dc91cb906670245d5306d
19:38 kados   *** Environment problem:
19:38 kados   *** Your name cannot be determined from your system services (gecos).
19:38 kados   *** You would need to set GIT_AUTHOR_NAME and GIT_COMMITTER_NAME
19:38 kados   *** environment variables; otherwise you won't be able to perform
19:38 kados   *** certain operations because of "empty ident" errors.
19:38 kados   *** Alternatively, you can use user.name configuration variable.
19:38 kados   fatal: empty ident  <jmf@server.gimli.metavore.com> not allowed
19:38 kados   hmmm
19:38 slef    erm - do you have a gecos field set in your system user database?
19:38 slef    (usually /etc/passwd)
19:38 kados   I've no idea what that means
19:39 slef    the gecos field contains info about the user
19:39 slef    man 5 passwd
19:39 slef    I think you can set it with chfn
19:39 kados   phone .. sec
19:40 slef    ok... command to run is: chfn
19:40 slef    might need to as root: chfn jmf
19:40 slef    as in: if you type "finger jmf" does it show your name?
19:51 slef    once the above commit and branch is done, then the import command seems to be:
19:51 slef    git-cvsimport -d:ext:slef@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha -v koha
19:55 slef    this is actually a bit mean to the remote server AFAICT
19:55 slef    maybe should wait until I get my copy online and then clone it?
19:56 slef    biab
20:10 kados   sorry, got a phone call
20:11 kados   slef: this is a VPS system, might that have something to do with it?
20:12 kados   git-cvsimport -d:ext:kados@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha -v koha
20:12 kados   Branch 'origin' does not exist.
20:12 kados   Either use the correct '-o branch' option,
20:12 kados   or import to a new repository.
20:16 kados   just added one for Name
20:16 kados   same error
20:18 kados   ok, I tried:
20:18 kados   git commit -m 'dummy initialisation'
20:18 kados   Committing initial tree 115a9d25388ac903298dc91cb906670245d5306d
20:18 kados   git branch origin
20:18 kados   now seems to be working
20:19 kados   hmmm, some warnings
20:20 kados   this may take a while
20:20 kados   :-)
20:47 kados   hey thd__
21:06 slef    kados: which VPS?
21:06 kados   dunno
21:07 slef    heh
21:07 slef    more likely, whoever added your account didn't fill in all the info
21:07 slef    sadly common and can be a PITA if the sysadmin needs to phone you
21:07 kados   that woudl be me
21:07 kados   I hate filling in that info
21:07 kados   and this is the first time it's mattered :-)
21:08 slef    oh well... if it's a private server, often doesn't matter
21:08 kados   anyway, I hopped over to #git on irc.gnu.org
21:08 slef    I think reportbug and some debian email tools will sulk
21:08 kados   and they say we should upgrade to 1.5
21:08 slef    any showstopper?
21:08 kados   naw, it's just 'better' :-)
21:08 kados   http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/v1.5.0/RelNotes-1.5.0.txt
21:09 slef    cool... I'll be back in 15
21:09 slef    then I should be about for 40 or 50
21:09 slef    then it's too late and I'll be asleep ;-)
21:09 kados   the tutorials unfortunately don't work with 1.5
21:09 kados   I mean 1.4
21:10 slef    can 1.4 and 1.5 use the same repos?
21:10 kados   think so
21:10 kados   As of git v1.5.0 there are some optional features that changes
21:10 kados   the repository to allow data to be stored and transferred more
21:10 kados   efficiently.  These features are not enabled by default, as they
21:10 kados   will make the repository unusable with older versions of git.
21:10 kados   Specifically, the available options are:
21:10 kados   <snip>
21:11 slef    cool
21:11 slef    is there a dsc for 1.5, have you found?
21:12 kados   dsc?
21:12 slef    http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/git-core/git-core_1.5.0.3-1.dsc
21:12 kados   ahh, yea
21:12 kados   it's in unstable
21:12 slef    time to stress the mipsel again
21:12 slef    as that runs sarge
21:13 kados   speaking of dscs, what ever became of the one for Koha?
21:13 slef    backportsRme
21:13 slef    kados: need the web and sysadmin install split, really
21:13 kados   it is in 3.0
21:13 kados   have you seen the new web installer?
21:13 slef    an early version
21:13 kados   it's still kinda early IMO, but it works
21:14 slef    right biab
21:14 kados   k
21:25 kados   ok, upgraded to 1.5.0.3
21:25 kados   and starting over with the git-cvsimport
21:29 slef    there's a 1.5.0.4 but it's not debianised
21:29 kados   yea
21:29 slef    reportbug git-core with severity wishlist, asking for the new version, if you have time
21:30 slef    it'll be about 17 days before my dev system is in a state for that :-D
21:31 kados   the cvsimport process looks like it's gonna take a while
21:31 slef    actually
21:31 kados   and the guys on #git dont think it's any faster if you use :local:
21:31 slef    try pointing it at :local:/your/mirror
21:32 kados   see above ^^
21:32 kados   :-)
21:32 slef    wow, really?  should be a bit quicker than hammering a server that everyone else is hammering, trying to repair their repos ;-)
21:32 kados   hehe
21:32 kados   we could race ...
21:33 kados   I've got a head start though
21:33 kados   so say we build this thing
21:33 kados   well hang on
21:33 kados   say I build one and you build one
21:33 kados   can they interoperate? :-)
21:33 kados   or does one need to be a parent of the other?
21:34 slef    interesting question... I think it's simpler if one is started from the other
21:35 slef    if they both come from cvs (so the origin branch will be the same), I'd expect them to interop...
21:38 slef    kyle: message for you when you return: it is possible to revert one file. If nothing else, you could feed the output of a git diff command back to patch, but I expect there's a better way.
21:40 kados   slef: I suspect all of us in the koha-devel could use some refresher courses on being efficient diff and patch ers
21:40 kados   slef: I know I hardly every use those tools
21:41 slef    kados: I used to have a good Larry Wall (I think) doc bookmarked
21:41 slef    I'll see if I can find it and mail it to koha-devel
21:41 kados   woot
21:41 slef    I also really like the emacs diff modes, but they won't be to everyone's taste
21:41 kados   yea, I'm a vim guy muself
21:42 slef    I think I heard vimdiff can do merges.
21:42 slef    I think I prefer ed to vi.  Am I ill?
21:43 kados   hehe
21:43 slef    I think my editor prefs are roughly: wily or emacs > jed > ed > vi > nano
21:43 kados   yea, I just only have ever used vi since I started on linux
21:43 slef    with joe in amongst them, depending on what it's emulating
21:43 kados   I tried emacs for  couple of days
21:44 kados   but culdn't get used to the key bindings
21:44 slef    so use the menus until you do
21:44 kados   *shrug*
21:44 kados   no real incentive
21:44 slef    emacs does reward the time on the tutorial... it probably also helps if you're a lisp fam
21:44 slef    fan
21:45 kados   I've got so much muscle memory invested in vi, no sense switching :-)
21:45 slef    but there's something loveable about a text editor that can run your instant messenger and your spreadsheet
21:45 kados   it's like switching from qwerty
21:45 slef    to dvorak?
21:46 kados   yea
21:47 thd     slef: if it can run your everything does it not mean that it is doing too much to be best at what is most important?
21:48 kados   hey thd
21:48 kados   thd: how's it going?
21:48 slef    thd: heh, maybe that's why I use wily for straight graphical editing.
21:49 thd     hello I back in from the storm
21:50 slef    it's windying up here but not too bad... what windspeeds there?
21:50 thd     kados: whit can be done to correct vi like behaviour of the backspace key in the OS X terminal?
21:51 thd     s/whit/what/
21:51 kados   hmmm
21:51 kados   yea, I can't remmeber
21:51 kados   lemme see if there's something in my .screenrc
21:51 slef    something like setterm backspace?
21:51 thd     kados: it deletes to the right of the cursor not the left
21:51 kados   yea, I know
21:51 slef    thd: tried ctrl-h?
21:52 kados   thd: nothing in .screenrc
21:52 kados   thd: I suspect if you start screen it will go away
21:52 kados   thd: or what slef said, i dunno
21:53 thd     my friend is back from Columbia so I ma not using that machine anymore
21:53 thd     kados: it did go away in screen maybe , it went away somewhere
22:17 thd     slef: are you still up?
22:22 slef    thd: no ;)
22:26 slef    thd: it would be silly to still be awake here now.
22:28 slef    yikes!  message from a dev on another project:
22:28 slef    I'm having problems with my macbook.  It won't power on.  Until I
22:28 slef    resolve this I don't have access to the scripts.  Heck, I'm writing
22:28 slef    this on my cellphone.
23:08 slef    http://www.cyrius.com/journal may interest you
23:24 slef    bye
23:24 chris   cya slef
10:45 slef    hi all