Time Nick Message 11:04 kados paul_away: you still around? 11:05 kados hdl: can you call paul and find out if he has a copy of 2.2.8 we can put on koha.org? 11:05 kados hdl: /me doesn't have one 11:05 kados mail to koha-devel sent 11:07 hdl found one 11:09 hdl Do you want me to send it to you ? 11:10 hdl or do you want to get it on a website ? 11:18 hdl kados ? 11:18 dewey hmmm... kados is helping us LibLime folk with something at the moment 11:19 kados hdl: sorry 11:19 kados hdl: phone call 11:19 kados hdl: can you email it to me? 11:19 kados hdl: jmf@liblime.com? 11:19 kados hdl: maybe put it on a website too? 11:20 kados hdl: :-) 11:20 hdl ok. 11:31 hdl on koha-fr.org 11:31 hdl koha-2.2.8 disponible 11:32 kados thanks! 11:32 kados where? 11:33 kados hdl: i don't see a news item, or a download link 11:34 hdl http://www.koha-fr.org/article.php3?id_article=93 11:34 hdl (now in recent articles) 12:02 kados hdl: I've changed koha.org links, but they must be 'approved' first by russel 12:21 owen kados, did I see that you had made some kind of change in rel_3_0 that allowed for custom headers in templates? 12:22 owen Or rch, maybe you know? 12:27 owen Hi slef 12:27 slef hi 12:27 dewey bonjour, slef 12:29 slef please not google and SVN? A double-whammy of bad technology, just because some people won't do local work in a DVC and you don't want to wait one more day for the service to return? 12:30 owen I take it you don't like SVN, slef? 12:31 slef indeed... it's replacing one buggy legacy tool (CVS) with a much larger buggy legacy tool 12:31 slef If you're going to suffer the pain to fix it, do it properly. 12:31 kados hdl: owen that was me 12:32 kados owen: yea, I basically just took the title tab out of the doc-head 12:33 kados slef: all we have is 'some people' :-) 12:33 slef kados: huh? 12:34 kados IMO DVCs create unnecessary overhead in managing version control, and in a small community, we can't really afford it 12:35 kados plus, we have a hard enough time getting people to wrap their minds around CVS ... 12:35 kados if we switched to something like git or arch, we'd never get any user contribs 12:36 slef I can't see how you work that out. The release manager has to publish their repo, but they do that with a centralised service. 12:36 slef Meanwhile, they save time by being able to work locally when needed, only doing the expensive publish when necessary. 12:36 kados we can do the same thing in SVN with branches 12:37 kados since we only have 10 or less active developers, that should scale fine for now 12:37 slef I'm not going to argue with your guesses about the future. I just disagree with them. 12:37 kados sure, and I certainly appreciate your points 12:37 slef CVS scales this far, so why the big pain and bigger clients of SVN? 12:38 kados for what it's worth, hdl agrees with you 12:38 kados the main reason is that CVS hasn't scaled for us 12:38 kados we've run into barriers with CVS that SVN solves 12:38 slef such as? 12:39 kados seemingly simple things like being able to rename directories, files 12:39 kados and changing permissions 12:39 kados merging between branches 12:39 kados are a real pain in CVS 12:40 slef They're as much a pain in SVN. Still need to read the manual. 12:40 slef Renames excepted. 12:40 kados well we've been using svn at liblime 12:40 kados so it's not like I'm just making a snap judgement 12:40 kados we actually really like it 12:41 slef how many of the other candidates have you used? 12:41 kados well, arch I've used 12:41 kados chris has used git 12:41 slef we use git for pretty much everything at ttllp 12:41 kados I haven't found anything that I want to do that I can't in SVN 12:41 slef including stuff like koha where we talk to CVS outside 12:42 kados I really don't want to spend much bandwidth on the version control system 12:42 kados rather devote energy on actual development 12:42 slef So you don't want consensus? You just want to lumber us with SVN@Google and that's it. End of discussion. 12:43 kados lumber? 12:43 slef saddle, curse, weight down, ... 12:43 kados hehe 12:43 kados yea, I know what it means 12:43 kados I just don't see how it's going to do that 12:44 kados it's fast, got plenty of backing from a strong organization, with core developers on staff 12:44 slef Why Google? Google is a large evil corporation, rather contraversial in the library community and has just been accused of massive copyright infringement. 12:44 kados Google is a large evil corporation? 12:45 kados are you kidding? 12:45 slef No. 12:45 kados honestly, I don't have time for this 12:45 slef When will you? 12:46 kados I'd be happy to respond to an email you send to the list 12:46 kados but I'm not going to battle it out with you on IRC when you're citing a reason for not going with google is be cause 'google is evil 12:47 kados that's an opinion, and shouldn't be stated as fact 12:47 kados IMO :-) 12:47 slef My comments on why google is evil have been public for at least a year. 12:51 owen kados: I've been playing around with YUI's DataTable library, trying to attach it to a copy of an OPAC screen. 12:51 owen It's working pretty well, with a few snags. 12:51 kados sweet 12:51 owen But I'm wondering about strategies for including the required scripts 12:52 owen That's why I was curious about changes to the templates 12:52 kados well, you have two options: host it at yahoo, or store it locally 12:52 kados I think if we coded carefully, we could make that a sys pref 12:52 owen Right, but for each page that has a data table you'd need to supply a snippet of custom javascript defining the parameters of that table 12:53 kados yea, the changes basically just put the <title>page title</title> bit entirely in the .tmpl file 12:53 kados rather than in the doc-head incldues 12:53 kados so you can add new doc-head includes on a template by template basis 12:53 kados does that make sense? 12:54 owen I'm not sure... I'm also not sure about how other applications handle per-page javascript stuff. Do they include it in the scripts that get loaded for the whole site? That seems cumbersome to me, but I don't really know about the overhead 12:55 owen I do know that in my local tests using the Yahoo-hosted libraries really slows down page load. 12:55 kados well, that's actually why I did it -- I don't want to load all the yahoo stuff every time 12:55 kados it's not going to all need to be on every page 12:56 owen Okay, so that's an issue addressed by your changes. 12:56 kados yep 12:57 owen Cool. Good to know. The DataTable library is still beta, and it shows...I've already run across a couple of problematic bugs 12:57 kados have they been reported yet? 12:57 kados what are you using DataTable for? 12:57 kados out of curiosity 12:58 owen Making tables sortable. 13:04 kados hehe, I did that too :-) 13:04 kados it's pretty slick 13:04 kados that was the first thing I did after I played with grids 13:10 kados slef: I'll happily respond to an on-list post about why you thing SVN/Google is a bad idea 13:11 slef kados: just writing. 13:13 kados thx 13:26 slef sent btw 13:40 slef right, I'm afk for a few hours... please don't break the project while I'm out ;-) 14:00 kados slef: responded 14:33 owen-away Am I out of touch? Do librarians really think Google is evil? 14:55 tnb owen: I heard some rumblings a few years back, but nothing lately. t 14:56 owen I know librarians don't like the fact that Google is replacing them as the go-to guy for information 14:56 tnb yeah, that's true 14:56 owen And I know /publishers/ don't like the fact that Google is scanning books. 14:56 tnb sure 14:56 owen But I don't know why librarians should care about that 14:56 owen I would think librarians would embrace increased access to texts 14:57 kados yea, to me google's been a real advocate of open access to data 14:57 kados I mean, the reason they're being sued over youtube is because of that very issue, right? 14:58 tnb plus, they've hired a company chef to cook healthy gourmet food for their employees ;) 14:58 owen Yeah, the fact that Google is being sued over YouTube seems more of a badge of honor than a flaw 14:58 tnb ha! 14:58 owen :D 14:59 owen kados--you hit the nail on the head. 15:01 owen Also, when Google's detractors look like this it's hard to take them seriously: http://www.google-watch.org/ 15:01 kados hehe, that's a funny picture of bill 15:02 kados it actually endears him to me :-) 15:17 kados hdl: you there? 15:17 kados hdl: I just got a report that the file is corrupted for 2.2.8 15:18 kados hdl: confirmed: 15:18 kados gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file 15:18 kados tar: Read 7908 bytes from koha-2.2.8.tar.gz 15:18 kados koha-2.2.8/intranet-html/intranet-tmpl/default/en/bull/searchresultlist.tmpl 15:18 kados koha-2.2.8/intranet-html/intranet-tmpl/default/en/bull/serial-issues.tmpl 15:18 kados tar: Unexpected EOF in archive 15:18 kados tar: Unexpected EOF in archive 15:18 kados tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now 16:31 hdl kados : SH. 16:31 kados ? 16:33 tnb owen: you around? 16:33 owen Yes 16:34 tnb this if off Koha topic... but I seem to remember us discovering 16:34 tnb that we could do 'user groups' with WordPress (when we were investigating voting site) 16:34 owen (did hdl just shush kados??) 16:34 tnb ha! I don't know... 16:34 hdl No. It was a bad word. 16:34 tnb oh, uh oh :/ 16:35 tnb wha happened? 16:35 hdl kados : I found other tarballs. 16:35 tnb kados is on the phone at moment 16:35 owen Heh, hdl try "SH**" 16:35 hdl I hope they are not corrupted either. 16:35 owen tnb, what do you mean by user groups? 16:35 tnb owen: do you remember this user group thing, because I cannot at all find which plugin does it now. yep 16:36 tnb so a person is only in charge of moderating 16:36 tnb certain user group 16:36 tnb i've been on the wordpress site... was there a hack you rememmber? 16:37 owen I have no recollection of that. Can you describe in more detail what you're trying to do? 16:37 hdl Sorry I didnot want to be rude. 16:37 tnb hdl: no prob :) 16:37 tnb kados still on phone :L) 16:38 tnb owen: we have several profs adn want them to be in charge of moderating just 'their' students posts 16:38 tnb so, a 'user group' for each LIS classroom and when folks sign up, they select their classroom, then prof only responsible for moderating their own students posts (i guess i just repeated myself :/ sorry) 16:38 hdl kados : I send you a new copy I could untar right now. 16:39 tnb do you remember any workaround for soemthing like that 16:39 tnb ? 16:39 owen Sorry tnb, I don't recall working on anything like that. In fact it sounds pretty off-the-wall. I'd be surprised to find something like that pre-written. 16:40 tnb huh. ok. it was a longshot :) 16:45 kados hdl: hi 16:45 kados hdl: so you have a fixed version? 16:45 hdl kados : I just sent you one. (There were 3 versions on paul's machine.) 16:46 kados hdl++ 16:46 hdl Luckily, I came to my computer at nearly 9PM 16:47 kados hdl: thanks! 16:47 kados hdl: it's live now 16:47 hdl You're welcome 16:49 kados hdl: I tested it, it unpacks successfully 16:49 kados hdl: hopefully it's the right 2.2.8 :-) 17:37 slef kados: you are not reading what I write. Your prejudices are showing. 17:37 slef 'Google is a corporation and therefore evil' is imaginary. 17:38 slef I'm a member of one of the UK's largest retail corporations. I don't agree that corporations are necessarily evil. 17:38 slef And it's ugly that the discussion moves to demonising so quickly :-( 18:02 kados slef: I haven't demonized anyone 18:24 kados hi _paul 20:16 slef kados: I can bring up a test git+cvs server tomorrow. 20:16 chris heya slef 20:16 kados chris: slef and I have been chatting on #gnu 20:16 kados slef: chris and I have been chatting on pmest 20:16 slef trouble is, the server I'd have to use is going to die and its replacement isn't ready for production yet 20:16 slef #savannah 20:16 kados pmesg even 20:17 kados ahh, right 20:17 chris do you think it would be possible to write up use case of how git and the koha team would work? 20:17 kados slef: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(software) 20:17 kados Git's design is a synthesis of Torvalds' intimate knowledge of maintaining a large distributed development project, and of file system performance. 20:17 slef sure... can you collect the tasks? I'd probably be ripping much from 'everyday git for kernel hackers' 20:18 kados slef: A core assumption in Git is that a change will be merged more often than it is written, as it is passed around various reviewers. 20:18 slef git's big problem is that Windows support used to be awkward IIRC 20:18 kados slef: I'm trying to figure out if we're 'a large distributed project' and also if we want to spend more time merging than writing 20:19 slef kados: it's heading that way and almost certainly will if we have 2.2, 3.0s, 3.0z and 3.1 all around at once! 20:19 kados slef: my core fear with DVS and Koha is that with only 11 developers, we won't have any incentive to manage a 'project' repository 20:19 kados and we'll end up just forking 20:19 kados and fragmenting into 3-4 separate projects 20:20 slef I think the release managers need to keep the project repo. 20:20 kados yea, but the prob is, we don't have anyone with time to just handle merging 20:20 slef There's always an incentive for others to pull from the project repo: get into the next release. 20:20 kados that's my core intention 20:20 kados s/intention/contention/ 20:21 kados slef: can you quell my fear regarding that? 20:21 slef We could maybe try to use a robot that tries to merge anything approved. 20:21 kados what's the process of approval consist of? 20:22 slef Most release managers I know bother to check what's been contributed. 20:22 chris its what we really should be doing now anyway 20:22 chris *snap* 20:22 slef Whatever we want. GPG-signed, from a particular address or whatever. 20:22 chris hmm that could work 20:23 chris approved developers get merged automagically 20:23 slef I've done that before, but not with git. 20:23 kados I'm skeptical that we have resources to : 20:23 kados 1. set that up 20:23 kados 2. maintain it 20:23 kados also, we're at a very important time in the project's hisotry 20:24 kados we really need to roll 3.0 out 20:24 slef Our git-use has been mostly ssh-based with few people. Koha's a bit bigger, but given git scales to linux, I doubt there'll be an impossible problem. 20:24 kados we're competing with evergreen now 20:24 kados 3.0 is literaly years behind schedule 20:24 slef I can understand the scepticism (I've been crap before) and can only ask for time. 20:25 chris one issue that we have now, is that we are really just avoiding the problem 20:25 slef I've been hampered with 3.0 work partly because each branch switch feels like a big networked operation. I guess I could keep two working copies. 20:25 chris ie not reading the commits, not rejecting bad ones etc 20:26 kados google + SVN means I can focus on coding and won't have to worry about the versioning system 20:26 kados chris: yea, that's true 20:26 slef I've also struggled with 3.0 because it's undocumented, even in code comments. Even the code style was random last time I looked. 20:26 kados slef: amen 20:26 kados slef: the search api's well documented 20:27 kados slef: but that's all that I've seen that has anything remotely like code documentation 20:27 slef IMO the problem is that too many focus on code and no-one is focusing on integration, but maybe that's wrong. 20:27 chris no i think there is more than a grain of truth in that slef 20:27 slef A lot seems to go on on IRC and not be written elsewhere, so my impressions these days are probably a bit off. 20:27 kados slef: yea, both good points 20:28 kados our core problem is resource related 20:28 kados we're all just scraping to get the stuff done for our clients 20:28 kados don't really have time for the project proper 20:28 chris we let stuff slip, and it ends up costing us in the long run, but we need to eat in the short run 20:28 kados yea 20:28 kados it's a viscious cycle :( 20:28 slef vicious 20:29 kados yea 20:29 chris or viscous (spelling?) 20:29 chris the sticky stuff 20:29 kados hehe 20:29 slef chris: a viscous cycle is a bike that has just been oiled. 20:29 chris :0 20:30 kados probably all we need 20:30 slef My problems with just switching to google + SVN is it doesn't address either of the main problems with savannah + CVS. 20:31 kados phone 20:31 slef I see the main problems as failure-resilience and centralisation. 20:31 kados hehe 20:31 slef ok, someone's just asked me stuff in #savannah 20:31 slef s/centralisation/branching/ # probably clearer what I mean 20:31 kados I think the main problem we have is there's no-one handling merges 20:31 chris yeah 20:32 kados the thing we're annoyed about EG for having :-) 20:32 chris maybe git would force us to 20:32 chris at citylink they have cone man 20:33 chris someone on call that day (with the traffic cone) 20:33 chris maybe we need merge person (to be all non gender biased) 20:33 chris :) 20:33 kados hehe 20:33 chris a role rather than a person, that rotates 20:33 chris so feel free to say "thats retarded" 20:34 kados sorry, russ is distracting me :-) 20:34 kados I think it's a good idea 20:34 slef no, but how does that person get paid? ;-) 20:34 kados what kind of person 20:34 kados would be good at that? 20:34 kados and who in our community is that kind of person? 20:34 kados and how will they get paid? :-) 20:35 slef to be honest, stuff I currently do to koha doesn't get merged back promptly at the moment because there seems little incentive to do so 20:36 slef (and I'm often not developing it on a machine with a cvs-friendly network connection - or my ssh keys for that matter) 20:36 chris right 20:37 slef on the flip side, I like reading code commit mails... I'm still on commit mailing lists for projects I've not used for over a year 20:37 chris yep 20:38 slef I quite liked compiling the 'what changed in koha this week' mails, but no-one else seemed to appreciate them. 20:38 chris ohh i liked those 20:38 chris sorry i didnt verbalise that 20:39 slef chris: we're not usually awake at the same time, so I don't hold it against you. 20:39 chris i think there are a few ways to be paid for the role 20:39 slef It also got a bit tricky with the split branches. 20:40 chris but mostly it would boil down to the persons employer being willing to pay them for some time to do it 20:41 chris also they may be willing to do some work for non monetary gain outside work hours 20:41 chris for things like kudos :) 20:41 chris i certainly wouldnt mind having a go at it, but certainly not on anything like a fulltime basis 20:42 slef Heh, I'm my employer. I don't have enough koha clients at the moment to justify the time I spend :-/ Even oscommerce is more profitable. I stick around because for non-monetary reasons. 20:42 chris but bringing it back .. i think this a problem we will have with whatever version system we use 20:42 chris the resource to audit code commits 20:44 kados chris: so I take it you prefer not to be the 'auditor' for Koha commits? 20:45 chris no thats fine, i dont mind doing that 20:45 chris just not forever 20:45 chris and not if its gonna make my employer go broke :) 20:46 kados hehe 20:46 chris if i was doing it, id probably ask for help occasionally too 20:47 chris as there undoubtedly will be code i dont grok 20:47 slef thing is, do we need an auditor, or someone saying "this can't be committed because I don't understand it"? 20:47 chris but at least id be going "huh???" 20:47 kados slef: yea, maybe 20:47 chris and asking ppl to explain it 20:48 kados or fix it :-) 20:48 slef s/committed/& yet/ 20:48 chris and then comment it, so i dont go huh?? next time :) 20:48 kados hehe 20:50 slef does SVN do per-branch permissions? 20:50 chris good question, i dont know the answer though 20:51 chris http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/VersionControl 20:51 chris is kinda interesting 20:51 slef I think part of the problem is that the default commit is into the next release, but to do otherwise in CVS (and I guess also SVN) is more work. 20:52 chris right 21:17 slef wow... #savannah reports it was 3-disks of a 6-disk RAID array failed 21:19 slef rather, 2 disks of a 5-disk+1-hotswap array failed 21:20 chris ouch 21:20 slef that's a bit unlucky 21:22 slef they're just finishing the hardware config and about to restore from backups 21:23 chris cool 21:23 slef 560GB over gigabit ethernet 21:23 slef then they have to cart it back to the colo 21:23 slef I guess they're in Boston MA. The colo is in Quincy. 21:23 chris ahh, not too far then 21:25 slef My US geography is terrible ;-) 21:26 chris ive been to a wedding in Boston but it was a while ago now 21:27 slef looks like 10mins train if it was here 22:26 slef savannah 40% copied 22:27 kados so were they able to restore from raid rather than backup? 22:27 slef no, the failure pattern broke the RAID 22:27 kados shit 22:27 kados so we roll back to Sunday then 22:30 chris kados: you should be able to redo the commits .. from your checkout hopefully 22:30 kados naw, it will think they are already done 22:30 kados cvs- 22:30 kados - 22:30 kados :-) 22:30 chris hmm will it? 22:31 kados yea, the versions are stored in the Entries file 22:31 kados and they will conflict with what's on savannah 22:31 chris bummer 22:31 slef kados: want an evil way to do it? 22:31 kados hehe, sure 22:32 slef tar it up, with --exclude CVS, get a new checkout on the right branch, untar over it, commit, run away screaming 22:32 kados I'm sure there's some obscene bash onliner that would check out a fresh copy and recursively replace the CVS dir in each of my working copy's dirs with a fresh one 22:32 kados hehe 22:32 kados yea, I especially like the part where I get kicked off the project :-) 22:32 slef actually, could be smarter with tar 22:33 kados for completely borking CVS :-) 22:33 slef only tar up files newer than Sunday 2030 22:33 kados I can see it now 'well first savannah was down for two days, then kados broke the repo' :-) 22:33 slef hey, we know they have a backup 22:33 kados hehe 22:34 slef believe me, you want to be the first to commit in the above way 22:35 slef everyone else will probably have to merge ;-) 22:36 kados yea, that's the prob 22:36 kados I don't trust that I have the latest version of every dir 22:36 kados so tell me how this would work with git? 22:37 slef we point and laugh at the failed server, then replace it with the release manager's current local copy (or a mirror of it) 22:37 kados so the working copy comprehends the whole history? 22:38 kados (I like the point and laugh bit) 22:38 slef rather, the local store does 22:38 slef so I should have said local store 22:38 kados k 22:38 slef or local repo 22:38 slef not local copy, which was ambiguous, sorry 22:38 kados np 22:39 slef I'm more accurate before 0000 22:39 kados hehe 22:39 chris :) 22:39 kados hehe 22:39 slef boy, the old test system is slooooow 22:40 slef and it's the only mipsel now, so I can't distcc 22:40 kados what about the access rules, etc. 22:40 kados so there's the RM's repo 22:40 kados people can't commit to that, right? 22:41 slef not unless the RM sets it that way 22:41 kados the RM has to merge code into it from other repos? 22:41 slef it's up to us, really 22:41 kados ok, and renaming dirs, files and changing permissions I assume can be done painlessly 22:42 slef lots of choices... CVS actually also gives some of these choices, but no hosting services support it AFAIK 22:42 chris yeah you can do all the cleaning up that cvs doesnt let you do 22:42 slef git mv, and so on 22:42 kados right 22:43 kados so if I set up git on one of liblime's servers 22:43 kados and we pointed git.koha.org to it 22:43 slef not sure about chmod, but the build scripts ought to be doing that IMO 22:43 kados could we use it in the same way we use CVS right now 22:43 kados where every dev has a ssh key, they have write access to the repo, etc. 22:44 kados they each check out a version of it, modify, and commit back? 22:44 slef if you set up git-cvsserver, in exactly the same way I think... http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-cvsserver.html 22:45 kados CVS clients cannot tag, branch or perform GIT merges. 22:45 slef although AIUI each branch would have its own cvsroot 22:46 slef CVS clients wouldn't know what a GIT branch is... different level to a CVS branch 22:46 slef You can CVS branch one file, remember. 22:46 kados yea 22:46 kados ok, now lets say we set up git 22:46 kados :-) 22:46 kados and chris has a repo 22:46 kados I have a repo 22:47 kados paul has a repo 22:47 kados now chris does some work on acquisitions 22:47 kados and so does paul 22:47 kados noooo! 22:48 slef typical! 22:48 kados :-) 22:48 kados anyway 22:48 slef I wouldn't host it here, don't worry! 22:48 kados so paul, chris and I each have our own repos 22:48 slef It would be in London Docklands. 22:48 kados and paul and chris both do work on acquisitions 22:48 kados in CVS here's what would happen: 22:49 kados paul commits his code 22:49 kados chris commits his code 22:49 chris it doesnt let me 22:49 kados he's told to update first 22:49 chris it makes me update then it conflicts 22:49 kados yep 22:49 chris then i have to go fix it 22:49 kados he resolves conflicts 22:49 chris then i commit 22:49 kados and commits 22:49 kados done 22:49 kados what's the step by step if we had git 22:49 kados for getting both paul and chris's code into cvs 22:49 kados into my repo I mean :-) 22:49 chris and meanwhile paul has committed again and i have to do it again:) 22:49 slef paul commits his code 22:50 slef chris commits his code 22:50 kados ... 22:50 slef then probably when chris tries to push to paul, it asks him to merge 22:51 kados why is chris pushing to paul? 22:51 slef (but git does better at conflict resolution than cvs IME) 22:51 slef oh wait 22:51 slef are both pushing to you? 22:51 kados yea 22:51 slef well, whoever is pushing second may get need to merge 22:51 slef s/get/ 22:52 chris yep 22:52 chris i could also push to paul if i wanted 22:52 kados hmmm 22:52 slef depends if you have edited the exact same lines incompatibly 22:52 kados hang on 22:52 slef yeah, if kados's server blows up, chris can push to paul 22:52 kados I thought that when you push it becomes a branch 22:53 slef or if chris decides "I don't have time to merge right now" he can quickly mail to paul and try to persuade paul to merge it ;-) 22:53 kados see that's what I'm worried about right there 22:53 chris yeah i can say "paul ive done a bunch of work an acqui, can you git-pull it" 22:53 kados right now, I have made the case to everyone 22:53 kados somewhat successfuly 22:54 kados that we all need to commit our work to CVS and stick with the project 22:54 kados where's the incentive to do all this push-pull with git? 22:54 kados i dunno if that's a legitimate question or not 22:54 slef well, what's the incentive to do it with CVS? It doesn't change. 22:54 chris yeah, its a person problem 22:54 kados well with CVS you have to resolve conflicts if you want any kind of version control 22:55 kados with git you have version control without resolving conflicts 22:55 chris id still have to do that locally 22:55 slef In fact, the wider range of ways to push/pull/mail/clone and so on will probably encourage it. 22:55 chris if i wanted anyone elses code 22:55 slef kados: erm, no, you can run other version control systems on CVS working copies 22:56 chris otherwise its the same as me grabbing the files and running my own local cvs repo 22:56 chris ie if i didnt want to participate in the project and commit my code back now, cvs isnt forcing me .. i could just do what the south americans did 22:56 kados maybe my idea about how software development should work is the problem here 22:57 chris people have to want to commit back 22:57 kados my core assumption is that it's a good thing that we all have to see each other's code 22:57 slef I want to, but current situation means it doesn't happen soon enough and that makes the task bigger. 22:58 kados esp since there are only about 10 of us 22:58 chris yep, and with git that would still happen 22:58 kados and probably only about 4 that commit regularly 22:58 kados would we have a koha-git log of every commit? 22:58 chris ie i would pull from your (The release managers) repo 22:59 slef with git it could happen more... I could git-format-patch stuff to email and ask 'Is this worth tidying up into a commit?' 22:59 chris yes git does good logs 23:00 kados I think the biggest problem is that we need to all agree on how exactly our releases should be developed :-) 23:00 kados i envision the following basic procedure for a stable branch: 23:01 kados 1. build a release 23:01 kados 2. fix some bugs, minor new features 23:01 kados 3. test 23:01 kados 4. build a release 23:01 kados 5. start over at 2 23:01 slef random point: put everything, including roadmaps and so on, into the repo. There are times (trains, some customer sites) when I can hack but don't have good network access. 23:01 kados in reality, we're a diverse group 23:01 kados so while I'm at step 2, paul might be at step 3 23:02 kados slef: yea good point 23:02 chris yep, its all policy 23:02 kados that's where our conflict happens 23:02 slef (but koha is better than many at documenting/commenting... I know at least two projects I use a lot who put 'See http://inaccessible' in the READMEs.) 23:02 kados so right now for instance 23:02 kados paul is ready for #4 23:02 kados but I'm still at #2 with 3.0 :-) 23:03 kados and parts #3 23:03 chris right, thats not a problem git or svn or mecurial could fix 23:03 kados yea 23:03 kados so maybe the thing we ultimately need to do 23:03 kados is have better communication between the developers 23:03 slef bring back the town hall? 23:03 kados about a release schedule 23:04 chris yeah, town hall was good too 23:04 kados once 3.0's sufficiently stable 23:04 kados we shoudl aim for quarterly releases or something 23:04 kados that follow a consistant pattern 23:04 slef and also I think each RM could take a step back from coding and get more done by getting particular contributions... sort of commissioning 23:04 kados and maybe we can align our schedules so that we're all building at the same time, testing at the same time 23:04 kados and when it comes time to build the relase, we're all ready for it 23:05 kados slef: yea, that's nice in theory, but in practice, the RMs are also the lead developers :-) 23:05 slef sad as it may sound, I think we need a developer portal 23:05 chris yeah 23:05 chris i started that in 2000 23:06 kados it's a receipe for disaster 23:06 kados I actually didn't intend to be a lead developer :-) 23:06 chris http://developer.koha.org/ i didnt get far 23:06 kados honestly :-) 23:06 chris :) 23:06 chris actually i lie, that used to have stuff there 23:06 slef anyone want to buy me a new connection to nz 23:06 slef with a banner on the top "this is build season/ this is new features season/ this is freeze season" 23:06 kados hehe 23:06 chris but it was so old an out of date i took out in about 2003 23:07 chris good idea 23:07 kados clever 23:07 kados seasons 23:07 kados I like it 23:07 slef maybe the wiki could do this most easily 23:07 slef but I have a love-hate with that wiki 23:07 chris heh 23:07 kados yea, me too 23:07 kados sometimes it doesn't handle authentication properly 23:07 kados you too? 23:07 chris yeah i have a love hate with all wiki's 23:07 kados yea 23:08 kados one season per month 23:08 chris i do think putting the roadmap and things in the repo is a fantastic idea 23:08 kados yea, definitely 23:08 kados for me, finding a roadmap format is difficult 23:09 kados it's a tough thing to represent 23:09 chris yep 23:09 kados not like building a house 23:09 kados where you can actually draw everything 23:09 slef probably more normal to do a simple TODO in the repo 23:09 chris yep 23:09 slef or you could put a dot file in there if you're evil 23:10 chris i think that having a place where ppl update what they are currently working on would help 23:10 chris chris - acquisitions receiving orders 2007-03-15 23:11 chris so that when i come along to work, i can look and see, oh hey paul said he is working on that, ill ping him and see what hes up to 23:11 kados right 23:11 chris might be at our portal 23:11 chris or wiki 23:11 kados dotproject maybe 23:12 chris maybe that 23:12 dewey i heard maybe that was a clue. I know that data size errors have caused Koha to stop functioning when a value was arbitrarily truncated. 23:12 kados ok, so just a sec 23:12 kados I just had a random thought about git 23:12 kados question actually 23:12 kados so in our scenerio in cvs we have the following commands: 23:12 kados cvs commit (paul) 23:12 kados cvs commit (chris) 23:13 kados cvs update (chris) 23:13 kados cvs commit (chris) 23:13 kados what would it be in git? 23:13 kados git commit (paul) 23:13 kados git commit (chris) 23:13 kados git merge (chris) 23:13 kados git merge (paul) 23:13 kados resolve conflict 23:13 kados git commit (paul) 23:13 kados right? 23:13 slef not quite 23:13 slef git commit (paul) 23:14 slef git commit (chris) 23:14 slef git pull (chris) 23:14 slef git merge (chris) 23:14 slef git pull (paul) 23:14 slef or the equivalent with push 23:14 slef you missed paul's cvs update off, by the way 23:14 slef if you mean to leave them with the same latest files 23:15 kados right 23:15 kados yea, so is it more commands in git than cvs to result in the same state? 23:15 kados (not that that's the only measure of git's worth :_)) 23:15 kados (just something I thought of) 23:15 chris the conflict resolution/merge is much smarter 23:15 slef should be the same number of operations 23:16 slef how many commands depends on the nature of the changes and conflicts 23:17 kados I know I could use some better development habits 23:17 kados like diff and patch are not really my friends 23:18 chris the nice thing with git is it has stuff like 23:18 kados and I always worry when I do a cvs update and cvs merges that while it may have successfully merged code, I have no way of knowing if the result is sematicallly correct 23:18 chris git-send-email(1) 23:18 chris Send a collection of patches as emails. 23:19 kados ie, I could have a successful cvs update that results in code that doesn't compile 23:19 chris and git-format-patch 23:19 kados or that does wild and unexpected tings :-) 23:19 slef kados: that's more about testing than version control. You can help that, but not really force it. 23:20 kados yea 23:20 kados it's a people problem again :-) 23:20 kados chris: *nod* 23:21 slef one git safeguard that I think is now on by default is that you can name exactly which files get committed, so no more accidental commits... it sounds a pain, but I actually find it useful. 23:21 kados cvs has that too, eh? 23:21 chris the thing too remember with git, merging is as easy as it can be, cos the linux guys get patches out the ying yang 23:21 kados yea 23:21 chris so its all about making their life easier 23:21 slef I have a script that marks any file mentioned in my Changelog for commit... if something I expect to be committed isn't marked, then I've missed it from the Changelog 23:22 slef kados: if you do cvs commit in a dir, it checks in everything it can find and then some 23:22 slef not sure if you can stop that 23:22 kados well you can say cvs commit filename1 filename2 etc 23:24 kados slef: btw, I had no idea that Richard Stallman was so hard to deal with ... based on #savannah sounds like he's pretty stubbrn :-) 23:25 slef erm, he's not hard to deal with 23:25 slef but he is extremely stubborn 23:25 kados not prioritizing savannah was a big mistake ... a two day outage for hundreds of free software projects could make national news 23:25 slef If RMS has decided, forget changing it, IME. 23:26 kados it's something that microsoft just waits to point to 23:26 slef nah, the news media are still going on about the GPG security problem 23:27 kados hehe 23:27 slef http://www.scmagazine.com/us/news/article/642684/core-security-gnu-privacy-guard-flaw-allows-phishing-like-attacks/ 23:28 kados jeez that's bad 23:28 kados only affects email? 23:28 slef yep 23:28 kados not too bad then 23:29 kados but definitely embarassing 23:29 kados :) 23:29 slef also, GPG users && html mail link clickers && banks using GPG is approximately 0 23:29 kados yea 23:29 slef but don't get me onto banks and secure email 23:30 kados yea, sending statements and such via email is a bad idea 23:30 kados slef: do you know anyone at gna? 23:31 kados I'm curious if they've got redundency 23:32 slef I know people who used to be at gna. 23:35 slef http://emergency.gna.org/ 23:36 slef https://gna.org/file/diagram.services.png?file_id=479 23:37 slef https://gna.org/cookbook/?func=detailitem&item_id=105 23:38 kados slef: what about cvs history, can we import history into git? 23:39 slef http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/cvs-migration.html 23:39 slef in short: yes 23:39 slef in long: requires additional software, hammers the cvs server 23:40 slef aside: this is how I run git on top of koha's cvs 23:45 kados slef: on another note 23:46 kados slef: what would you say to the idea of doing autoconf/automake for koha 3.0? 23:46 slef eek 23:46 slef but I see where you're coming from 23:46 slef set up zebra (and yaz?) 23:46 kados yea, maybe 23:46 kados just generally clean up the install process 23:47 slef I'm a bit stuck with MakeMaker... it's not really designed for cgi-bin 23:47 kados which is so hard right now 23:48 slef having the directory structure tidied would help MakeMaker 23:48 slef also I need to find a bit of time to ask debian's pkg-perl people 23:48 kados we're getting there in 3.0 23:48 slef as they must have done this before 23:48 kados directory structure tidying I mean 23:48 slef There are so many options (MakeMaker, Module::Build, PAR, ...) and none seem quite right. Not sure that autoconf is either tbh. 23:49 kados do you have some time to spend on this? 23:49 kados tidying up our install process is a major goal of 3.0 23:49 slef Can do next week. 23:49 kados sweet, thx 23:50 slef jabber or mail me if I don't start emailing Mon/Tue 23:50 kados hehe, will do 00:34 slef http://owu.towers.org.uk/planets/koha/ 00:34 slef There's also an index.rss in there if you want to subscribe. 00:34 chris cool :) 00:34 slef call it beta until next week 00:36 slef I think that could be where we mention "I'm current working on X" 00:36 chris good idea 00:42 chris sleep well 00:43 slef ta 01:07 chris been trying it out? 01:08 kados not yet 01:08 kados about to 01:08 kados we don't really have a server for repos 01:08 chris if you want you can clone my kohabot project 01:08 kados :( 01:08 kados k 01:09 chris 2 secs lemme set it up 01:10 kados http://code.google.com/soc/ 01:11 kados they still have it down for the 14th :-) 01:11 kados wonder if people work overtime there 01:12 chris pacific time they have a few hours yet 01:12 kados ahh, right 01:12 kados hehe 01:16 kados hmmm 01:16 kados Git does not explicitly record file revision relationships at any level below the source code tree 01:17 kados looks like viewing change history on a single file is somewhat complicated 01:18 kados maybe it's abstracted by the tools though 01:18 chris git log filename 01:18 chris seems to work fine 01:19 chris ok wanna try something? 01:20 kados sure 01:24 chris sorry firewall issues, 2 secs 01:29 kados hmmm, there's a git on debian that's different 01:29 kados it's a file browser/viewser and process viewer/killer :-) 01:29 kados guess gotta install from source 01:30 chris i didnt, i installed the debian one 01:30 chris but thats unstable 01:30 kados etch? 01:30 chris debian unstable 01:30 chris i never know the names 01:31 kados sarge is stable and I think etch is unstable 01:31 kados is it stable<-unstable<-testing ? 01:31 chris i think etch might be testing 01:31 chris no stable testing unstable experimental 01:31 kados ahh, right 01:31 kados yea, so etch is testing 01:35 kados well I'm too tired :-) 01:35 kados I better git to bed :-) 01:35 chris :) 01:36 chris git clone 203.97.214.51:/home/chris/kohabotshared/ kohabot 01:36 chris if i could beat my firewall into shape 01:36 chris would get you a copy 01:38 chris fixed it i think 09:48 kados LibLime was selected for 'Google Summer of Code' 09:48 kados yay! :-) 09:50 Lea hi guys 09:50 Lea congrats kados 09:50 owen What does that mean kados? 09:50 kados it means that google will pay students to work for us :-) 09:51 kados on any of the ideas we list on our 'ideas page' : 09:51 kados http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=googlesummerofcodeideas 09:51 hdl Hi. 09:51 hdl Wow. 09:51 kados (so if you have some ideas to list, by all means do) 09:51 kados hdl: is toins still a student? 09:51 kados hdl: if so, he should sign up 09:51 hdl yes. 09:51 kados good for his resume too 09:51 hdl I shall tell him. 09:51 kados thanks 09:52 hdl He will try to work on opensharetags with three friends of his. 09:52 hdl for a work for University 09:52 kados can someone add the idea to http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=googlesummerofcodeideas? 09:52 kados what is opensharetags? 09:53 hdl A way to share social bookmarks tags wetween ilses. 09:53 hdl Paul's idea. 09:53 kados cool 10:17 owen kados--I was just looking at the Summer of Code page. You're in really good company there!! 10:20 kados yea, it's quite an honor 10:25 kados hdl: is toins around? we should discuss his idea asap 10:26 kados PaulShannon: morning .. how'd the tar.gz work out for you? 10:26 PaulShannon Anyone have some time to answer some basic development questions about Koha? 10:33 tnb hdl: do you know anything about Spanish Koha Users Groups? There's a question on teh mailing list about it, plus I've been wanting to collect information about Spanish-speaking userss 10:34 tnb I seem to remembering stumbling across a site awhile back.... 10:55 PaulShannon Does anyone have some sample bib data I can dump in for evaluation?